Are you a workaholic or just a hard worker? With Malissa Clark, PhD

When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 Sponsored Job Credit at Indeed.com/podcast. That's Indeed.com/podcast, terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Somebody asked me how I'd define myself, and I didn't know what to say, because how can someone be defined when we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others. Because identity is not a performance. It's an exploration. It's five o'clock, and your workday is technically over, but you tell yourself you'll just answer one more email. Before you know it, two hours have passed and you're still at your desk. Or you're supposed to be on vacation, but you can't resist reading work emails and responding every time your phone pings with a message from a colleague. When our always connected world, it's easier than ever to let work encroach on every hour of the day. What psychologists who study workaholisms say that compulsive overwork is detrimental to our physical and mental health, and perhaps surprisingly even to our careers. Today, we're going to talk to a psychologist who studies workaholism about what it is and how to combat it. What's the difference between being a workaholic and just being a hard worker who's invested in her job is workaholism and addiction? How does it affect people's physical and mental health and their relationships? What can you do if you recognize workaholic tendencies in yourself or in someone you care about? And what can organizations and employers do to encourage a healthy relationship with work among their employees? Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life. I'm Kim Mills. My guest today is Dr. Melissa Clark, a professor of industrial organizational psychology at the University of Georgia, where she directs the Healthy Work Lab. She's a leading expert on workaholism, overwork, and employee well-being. Her research has been published in top academic journals and featured in publications including Time, The New York Times, The Atlantic, and US News and World Report. For 2020 for a book never-not-working, why the always-on culture is bad for business and how to fix it was recognized as a top management book by people management, management today, and the next big idea club. She also recently spoke with APS Magazine Monitor on Psychology for an article on Workaholism and Work Addiction. Dr. Clark, thank you for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. I've seen workaholism go by a few different names including work addiction and compulsive overwork. What term do you use in your research and how is this situation different from just working really hard or being very dedicated to one's job? I use the term workaholism. To be honest, I don't love the term work addiction, but it is what it is at this point. It's what is coined. It's not a formal addiction in the DSM, and I'm also not a clinical psychologist, which is partly why I don't use the work addiction term specifically. But workaholism is multifaceted, and a lot of people don't realize that. They think, "Okay, it's just someone who works all the time." Those examples that you pointed out really touch on how nuanced it is. The way I study it and measure it is actually with four different components. There's a motivational piece where people feel like they ought to be working all the time. You probably have heard of a concept called intrinsic motivation, which is working because you love to work. Workaholism is driven by introjected motivation. It's a concept that psychologists know. It's working because you feel like you ought to. It's partially internalized values of society and things that you learn growing up, but it's not truly of your own volition. It's this kind of controlled motivation, but I just describe it as pit-of-mystemic feeling like I ought to be working. The second component is the cognitive component where you're thinking about work all the time. This is often not talked about enough in my opinion because it's this running dialogue about work in your head. It keeps you up, keeps you from falling asleep. It distracts you when you're talking with your family and what are you doing? You're thinking about work. That's the cognitive component. There's an emotional piece to it that goes along with introjected motivation, this feeling of guilt and anxiety that builds and builds if you're not working, which is partly what drives you to pick up the phone or check your email. Then the fourth component is the most obvious, it's the behavioral component. Workaholics do tend to work longer than expected, longer than their colleagues. It is related to work hours, but it's honestly just kind of a moderate relationship or correlation. Doing things like working on vacation, all of that is part of the behavioral component. It is truly multifaceted. You can think about it sort of like a compulsion to work using that loosely and not like in the technical, clinical psychology sense. You've studied how workaholism affects people's lives, their physical health, their mental health, and their relationships. What have you and other researchers in this area found? Right. Pretty universally negative outcomes for individuals, for those around them, family, both in terms of physical health outcomes. We find that workaholism is linked to poor health. They tend to not exercise as much sometimes or sleep very well, and that kind of takes the toll. But there's some recent research showing links with cardiovascular risk and actigraph studies like showing the sleep impacts of workaholism and even linked to inflammation. We see these health impacts. We see self-reported lower mental health, greater burnout, just generally kind of self-report of how your feeling tends to be universally negative, and impacts on the family. I personally conducted interviews of spouses of workaholics, and we really see the impacts of the family by talking to the spouses. The relationship quality suffers. The spouse is taking more on, so they're becoming more exhausted. They probably are becoming resentful. There's impacts on the children, and there's impacts at work. There's not enough research on this particular area, in my opinion, but we do see research on if a supervisor, for example, is higher in workaholism, they are having negative impacts on their employees, that their employees are basically feeling like they need to be responding all the time because of this pressure that their boss is putting on them. In general, we find workaholism related to negative workplace behaviors, like counter-productive work behaviors, which we don't want at work, so things that indirectly or directly harm the organization. This could be things like being rude to a coworker, or those types of counter-productive work behaviors, not necessarily things like stealing and whatnot, but yeah, we just see universally negative impacts on individuals, those around them, and their work suffers too. We are not finding relationships with job performance, either the self-reported or supervisor reported performance that's consistent across all of our research, and we've conducted meta-analyses, which is basically a quantitative synthesis of all the research in this particular area, and we're not finding relationships with work performance, so workaholic behaviors are not making people better workers, and they're making them more difficult to be around, to be quite honest. In my opinion, it's very clear that the impacts are negative. Do workaholics themselves tend to think that by being on all the time that that's going to help their careers, even though the research shows that it doesn't, I mean, are they diluted? Well, for my book, I interviewed many individuals from workaholics anonymous, so that's actually a real organization that exists, and so I feel like the answer to your question comes from just hearing from self-described workaholics, and I can say that in many cases, yes, it's almost like they trick themselves into, this is what I have to do, this is what I need, even in the face of negative health consequences, and I kid you not every single person I interviewed from workaholics anonymous, had some sort of health impact of their workaholism, and even with that, I distinctly remember when man I spoke to, he said, he will never stop working, he will literally work until he dies, and it did not matter that he's had a heart attack in the past, and his wife has said that she was going to divorce him, it didn't matter to him, that was what he wanted, and with him, the only reason he was part of workaholics anonymous is his wife said, you're going to do this, or I'm leaving you, and so I was almost like, he's dragged into this. And I relate personally to, you know, this is why I studied it in the first place as I relate to this idea of Kind of telling yourself I'm doing this for this reason. I'm doing this because I need to, you know This will this will help me succeed So I do think there is a lot of confirming this with yourself Then are there particular jobs where the expectations are so high that workaholism is encouraged if not I mean, I'm thinking of some law firms where people are just expected to put in crazy hours or even, you know And here in DC people work on Capitol Hill, they do crazy hours I mean, you're expected to be there, you know, all night because Congress is in, you know Is that the problem that the jobs are encouraging workaholism? That's part of the problem and You know, there are certainly these types of jobs and occupations that the culture is It's a workaholic culture. This is what newcomers are told when they get in Let me give you an example of one woman I interviewed for the book. She worked at a one of the big consulting firms and the very first day Her coworker said, look, let me tell you something if you ever need to leave to go to a doctor's appointment or something like that Leave your purse on your desk and just take your keys Hmm, why would that be? Well, I mean because we know that if we're going to actually leave work to go to an appointment Of course, we're going to take our purse and so it was, you know, basically sending that signal that you don't leave your desk and You know jobs like that like you said in in DC some of the government jobs. I mean doctors lawyers You name it, but what was really fascinating was in my research is, you know, I have had people in all sorts of jobs like Across the whole range K through 12 teachers Um, you know, I even had a race car driver and a llama farmer. I mean it goes the whole range. So it's not linked to specific jobs Um another person I spoke with she said she thought it was her job and so she quit and she got a new job And realized she was still doing the same thing even though that job wasn't as demanding with their organizational culture And then that's when she realized oh, this is partially internally driven Um, so The way I see it there are some Internal drivers that you know, whether it's dispositional tendencies or or whatnot That do play a role for sure But the setting the organizational culture can exacerbate those workaholic tendencies basically What is it something that is typical of say perfectionists are those the kinds of people who become workaholics They're highly related I will say yeah, so there's different kinds of perfectionists too And we see some of the more I would say maladaptive qualities of workaholics such as feeling negative emotions when you're not working or thinking about work all the time In my research those two in particular seem to be related to The aspect of perfectionism that is that you're never going to live up to your standards your internal standards Whereas some people call it the more productive dimension of perfectionism perfectionistic strivings Which is like perhaps considered the healthier aspect That's more related to the behavioral and the motivational components of workaholism So but bottom line is they're very highly related And we see perfectionistic tendencies in your childhood That are kind of like early indicators So yeah, a lot of workaholics are also perfectionists And just to follow up on that I mean if I were a parent of a child and I thought that there was potential workaholicism Flowering there. I mean what would I what would I be looking for? There is there's actually a concept called school addiction that I've read about I haven't personally studied it, but yeah, you can I think look for the same sort of Patterns, you know If your your child is constantly worried about their grade or you see them, you know Instead of taking a moment to play with friends They are studying for their exam, which is two weeks away for hours, you know And not being able to put their schoolwork down I think those are really good indicators that There's some workaholic tendencies developing for sure Well, our country is sometimes stereotyped as a country of workaholics And I'm wondering if that's borne out in the research There are some cross-cultural studies that show that some cultures, you know, on average tend to show higher levels of workaholism US is one of them Japan, China, South Korea Those are probably the ones that show the highest levels What's interesting though is western Europe countries a lot of them, especially like the Nordic countries We see lower levels on average Again, but there's not a ton of research on this, but if I had to Explain where most workaholism researchers are it's in Europe which you we would think We need more of the research here, but that I think just goes to show that it's just culturally Acceptable here and you know, maybe that's why in Europe we see more researchers Study in this phenomenon because people take it more seriously Well, we don't get a lot of vacation in this country, you know, compared to other places And I'm wondering is that something that would help mitigate workaholism or help to promote a healthier relationship That workers have with their workplace? I would love more vacation. Yeah But would you take it? Oh, I mean isn't that a million dollar question. Yeah, so I do think you know as a society We need more Sanctioned vacation days, you know, but regulations that you know Mandate that organizations have to give so much vacation time Because we are far short compared to other Countries in terms of days off But I do think that even with that We would need to Make sure people take it, you know, use it or lose it policies sometimes our beneficial I think people don't want to lose something that they that they have but Things like unlimited vacation time. I don't really think are the solution Because then it turns into this weird pressure of like well, what are my peers taking like what are my co-workers taking in terms of days off I don't want to look, you know, like I'm taking too much um and so I definitely think That you know having it taken out of the workers control almost and you know the organization or some Regulation saying nope these are the days you have to take and you know There are even right to disconnect laws in some European countries. I don't know if I'm necessarily 100% on board with that, but it's an interesting concept right to disconnect laws is basically That the organization is not allowed to reach out to the employee if they aren't you know off the clock So again, I don't know if I'm completely on board with that but the philosophy behind that I am because I do think setting those norms and you know making sure It's not expected and organizations really really shouldn't unless there's an emergency That can help people to truly disconnect We're going to take a short break when we return we'll talk about the technology that keeps us tethered to our work even when we're out of the office When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work use indeed sponsor jobs It gives your job post the boost. It needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills Certifications and more spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit and indeed calm slash podcast That's indeed calm slash podcast terms and conditions apply need a hiring hero. This is a job for indeed sponsor jobs Somebody asked me how I define myself and I didn't know what to say Because how can someone be defined when we're always evolving I've been so many things I'll be so many others Because identity's not a performance. It's an exploration never the same But always myself Paradox intense and the new sweet chemistry by Prada Many of us work from home these days, especially since the pandemic and we have our work emails on our personal phones and computers so we can check Anytime Has workaholism gotten more common? Do you think as technology has made us more reachable? What we do know from the research is that technology Does tether us to work in an unhealthy way? And simply just having that access to work 24/7 and them having access to you 24/7 really what it's hindering is Your ability to psychologically detach from work because you're always um You know that you're always possibly reachable and having that technology is very tempting If you have these workaholic tendencies, you're much more likely to Have your email go to your phone and check it just throughout the day Just it almost becomes a habit a lot of us have this you know Just if we're bored if we're in line at the grocery store What do we do we pull out our phone and maybe check our email maybe you can relate to that And so being more accessible it really hinders that detachment both physically and mentally for more work? Are there other things that workplaces can do to basically discourage people from becoming workaholics or manifesting those tendencies? Yeah, there's a ton of things they can do if they're willing to fully see that through. The culture broadly plays a role and then how that manifests with the leader behaviors and what is rewarded is all something to think about. So, for example, is the organization rewarding and praising people for being accessible on the weekends and after hours? One of the companies I spoke with, one of their employees told me that the CEO, and at all hands call, was praising another, one of the employees, for being available whenever he needed him, but the issue was he worked all the way around the world. And so, being available all the time meant this person was up all night, basically. And so, those are little signals that give indications of what is valued in that culture or in the organizational culture. And so, what is rewarded? Who is rewarded and why? But also things that the leader, I think the leader is, you know, the supervisor manager is the most direct impact on us. You know, if our boss is constantly texting us and emailing us, and we know that their personality is such that they want to respond immediately. A lot of workaholics have this tendency to think everything is urgent. And so, if the manager or the boss has these workaholic tendencies and is constantly pinging their employees and wanting an immediate response, that is going to affect the employees negatively, regardless of if they have workaholic tendencies, they're having to jump when the boss says jump. Well, what if you see these tendencies in yourself? What are some of the things you can do to reduce your workaholicism? I mean, you said that that was an issue for you early in your career. So, how do you manage this? It's a constant battle. I'm not going to lie. I mean, it's not like the tendencies go away, right? So, I think just being really intentional. And there's a variety of different strategies that I talk about in my book. And it's not a one size fits all. So, I think it's a matter of trial and error and see what works for you. And I use a combination of things. You know, one strategy is, scheduling myself into my daily to-do list, like putting it on my calendar. There's the time where I'm going to actually take a lunch break and not be on my computer, but just like relax and eat or like sit and alarm on my phone. Okay, now it's time to walk around my building for, you know, 5-10 minutes to just get some fresh air and get away from my desk. Those little moments of reprieve, like, those are micro breaks and they can be really helpful in recovery. So another thing that I do, there's a whole literature on recovery strategies that's very related to, you know, the workaholism literature, obviously. And one recovery strategy from that literature is to engage in what's called a mastery experience. I personally love this one. It works for me because things like relaxation and meditation, I have tried and I have failed and I have tried again and I failed. Something about just being idle is very uncomfortable for me. And I, you know, I don't love it. And so a mastery experience is a recovery strategy where you're immersing yourself into something not work related and it takes your attention and concentration. What I love about that is, one, it's been shown to be a very effective recovery strategy. So you feel more, you know, engage the next day at work, you, you know, feel more rested and you're gaining back the energy that you lost, you know, throughout the whole day working. But I'm not sitting there idle. I'm doing something, you know, as long as it's something non-work related, I am psychologically detaching because I'm forcing myself basically to think about something else. So this could be learning in language. You know, my editor for the book, he learned, you know, to play, he taught himself how to play guitar. You know, so really anything that you get joy out of that you can focus on is, is my favorite recovery strategy for workaholics because it really does seem that a lot of people also struggle with being at rest. You mentioned workaholics anonymous and I'm wondering, I mean, you know, they structured the same way that say alcoholics are narcotics anonymous or structured. Is there 12 steps that you have to go through the same as in those other organizations? Yeah, they are. I think it is modeled after, you know, they have the 12 steps, the workbooks, they have sponsors. So I'm not a member, but, you know, learning about it from my research, it seems very similar to like AA, for example. What are you working on now? I mean, what are the big questions that you're trying to answer? Well, one of them is looking at these mastery experiences as recovery, you know, and is this actually a more beneficial strategy for people higher in workaholism? And we really don't know enough about that, especially when we think about on a daily basis. So how does engaging in a mastery experience at night help you the next day at work? Do you, you know, are you more productive? Are you more engaged? And there's really very little research looking at that particular question. Currently working on updating my meta-analysis because that is about 10 years old now. Time goes by fast. So we're updating that and including all of the studies that have been conducted in, you know, the last 10 years since that was done. And so looking to see, are we seeing the same trends in terms of outcomes of workaholism? And so I'm excited about doing that update. So those are some of my main ones right now, but yeah, really looking at day-to-day dynamics, I think, is something that I want to keep diving into and tracing people from day-to-day. Like, what are you thinking about when you're not at work? And what is it about your workaholism that you struggle with the most to like turn off? Well, this has been really interesting. And I think you've given some good ideas to some of our listeners who may have some of these tendencies. So I want to thank you for joining me today, Dr. Clark. You can learn more about the psychology of workaholism in the October issue of APA's magazine Monitor on Psychology. It's available for free at www.apa.org/monitor. You can find previous episodes of Speaking of Psychology on our website at speakingofpsychology.org or on Apple, YouTube, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you've heard, please subscribe and leave a review. If you have comments or ideas for future episodes, you can email us at [email protected]. Speaking of Psychology is produced by Lee Winerman. Thank you for listening. To the American Psychological Association, I'm Kim Mills. [Music] (gentle music)