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[email protected]. All right, here we go. A while back, my friend, Charlie Harding came to me with a question. Why do I pay attention to the music before I hear the words? Charlie's a songwriter. He's the host of the excellent music podcast, switched on pop. And he was wondering why when he listens to music, he can't really hear the lyrics. Am I a robot? I kind of feel like I've lost some human trait that is essential to the purpose of music. So I took this question. I went and talked to a whole bunch of researchers. And I found out that this is a way bigger question than I thought. It tells us a lot more about the brain and how we process what we hear than I realized. So what's going on here? When we listen to Beyoncé, the Beatles, or the Beastie Boys, do we actually hear the same thing? Or do we hear something entirely different? Charlie, thank you for coming on unexplainable. I'm so happy to be here. A while back, you came to me with this question. Why do you pay attention to music and not lyrics when you listen to a song? Yeah. Where'd that come from? Where'd that question come from? It's like the fundamental question of my life. Music is my job. And yet, when I hear a song, I hear all the music first. And I listen to a song for the third, fourth, fifth time. And then I'm like, oh, there's some words. The music always comes to me before the words do. Yeah. And I find remembering the words very challenging. And I know I'm not alone. I've many. I'm a music first. Can't remember the lyrics kind of guy. What's wrong with us? This is a very good question. Am I a robot? But the moment that I really realized something is wrong was at my friend, Steven Abbey's wedding. Okay. And me and my co-host Nate were asked to play a song at this wedding. We're asked to play the song, "California Stars," really a braggin' wilco. It's a great sort of like campfire song. And so I'm like driving in the car with my collaborator Nate. There's a brilliant musician and his wife Whitney. And we are trying to remember this song. We're singing it. We screw it up. We go back and look at the lyrics. We keep screwing it up. And Whitney in the front seat is like, "Guys, what is wrong with you?" And she just knows all the lyrics the first time. She's been listening to you guys mess it up. I'll burn over again. And of course, at the wedding, we totally screwed up with lyrics. But nobody noticed, right? Like everyone was watching them. No one was paying attention to us. They were paying attention to the wedding happening. So it was fine. But obviously on the side, Whitney's just like, "Oh my god." Okay, so I'm fascinated by this question. I have felt this myself, right? As a music person who goes back and listens to songs and can't remember the words. One of my favorite songs is by the band The Dodo's. And I was listening to the song in the car the other day. And I was getting to the chorus and I was singing. And then I was like, "Do I not know the words to my actual like one of my favorite songs? What is wrong with me?" So, you know, I took your question and I've been talking to music researchers. Probably like two dozen, maybe 30 music researchers over the last two or so years. A lot of people, right? Because I've been working on other music stories. And every single time I get to the end of the interview, I'm like, "Hey, I have this other weird question. You know how some people listen to music more and some people listen to lyrics more? And they're like, "Yeah, I kind of do know about that." And then they stare off into space and they think a little bit. And then they're like, "I don't really know anyone doing actual research on it." I talked to one researcher who wasn't even sure this is a real thing. Like he was like, "Oh, it might just be a story we tell ourselves about how we listen to music. Like, I'm into melody or I'm into lyrics, I'm into what the song says or I'm into how the song sounds, but it might not be a real thing." Why is that researcher gas-letting my personal experience? Well, we'll move on from that guy in a second because he did make me wonder if this whole thing was just, you know, a myth. But then I came across this one researcher who told me that he had a friend who was working on a study that has not been published. It's currently in review at a journal. And it's basically this exact question. So her name is Dominique Vuvan. She's in a band called Nice Hockey, which is great. She plays guitar and synth. But more importantly than being in a band, she's a psychology and neuroscience professor at Skidmore. And Dominique's been researching the connection between music and language for her whole career. When I think about the big questions about music, like how does that work? How does it function for us? Why is it important? These are questions that are literally just asking a basic version of like, what makes us human? How do humans do their thing? A few years ago, she was trying to trace where these things are processed in the brain. So like which parts of the brain process language, which parts process music? Are they the same? Are they different? But she wanted to play people some music and examine them using FMRI, which is a functional MRI. So it doesn't tell you the structure of the brain, but it tells you how the brain is actually functioning. But it was just way too complicated. Because too much was overlapping. FMRI is actually kind of limited in how closely it can examine the brain. It has a resolution of three by three millimeters, which sounds really small, right? Like if that's the smallest piece you can examine. That sounds pretty good. I can see three by three millimeters. Right. And like the brain is, you want to guess how many neurons are in one three by three unit? 100 billion. Okay, you're a little. Okay. About a million. About a million. Okay. It's a lot of neurons. Yeah, it's not very granular. And that's like the smallest unit they can examine, right? So she's not sure if you know, the same neurons are being used for music and lyrics, or if they're just kind of near each other in that three by three millimeter unit. It's just really hard to tease it apart. But she was at happy hour after work one night where most good ideas come from. And she and another researcher, they were talking about going to a concert they'd been to. And what they remembered. And Dominique was like, I personally am just a very non-lyrics person. Like even for my favorite music, I don't even process the lyrics. Like things that I've listened to dozens and dozens of times. Like what I'm really hearing is the beat of the song, like aspects of the melody is like the baseline. And what the person is like the melody that the person is singing, the quality of their voice, but not the words that they're saying. And then her friend was like, what are you talking about? Like the lyrics were incredible. I was totally hooked by the lyrics. It occurred to us during this conversation that one way to potentially pry apart the brain networks that are subserving language and music processing is by measuring the degree to which people differ on their sort of processing of the language materials versus the music materials in a song. And if you can see that the pattern of brain activation for those different people look different. And that tells you a little bit of something about the degree to which you're actually sharing resources in the brain for these two kinds of materials. Basically, you have this pattern happening in the brain. We don't know if it's music or lyrics, but if you find out if a person is a music person or a lyrics person, you can say, oh, they're listening to this song. They're focusing on the lyrics. So this pattern we're seeing in the brain, that's probably lyrics. If they're a music person, you can say, oh, they're listening to this song. They're processing music. They're focusing on music. This pattern that we see is probably music. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so in order to find out whether people are music people or lyrics people, she has to do a study.
which is basically the study that you've been looking for, that I've been looking for for two years. She got over 1,000 people, she gave them some prompts, and she asked them to rate them on a scale of one to seven. So one meaning I focus mostly on music, seven I'm focusing mostly on lyrics, and I thought maybe we could do a few together. Wanna do a couple? - Oh, yes. - Okay, so here's one. After listening to a song, I often think about what the words meant. I feel like for most of my life I've been at two. I don't like lyrics are there, but-- - Yeah, yeah. - Just registering. I'm probably at two as well. I have songs that I remember the lyrics, but it's like songs that I have to force myself to go back and learn the lyrics. - Yes. - Okay, and here's another prompt. I always listen to what is being said in the lyrics. - Now, can you do a zero? - I can give myself a 1.5. - Okay, I give myself a one on that. When listening to music, I most often find myself drawn to the lyrics. - I would say once again, probably a two, 'cause sometimes a perfect rhyming pair will happen, and it will really get me that happens, but it's almost like it comes into vision momentarily and then fades away. And it also depends on the artist, right? - Sure. - I don't know. Stephen Merritt or Bob Dylan or David Berman, some of these great lyricists, like, anyone who's more in this sort of folk tradition, where you're mature, really is just sort of vocal and accompaniment. - Yeah. - Right? - Then I'm gonna be, that's what I gotta pay attention to. - Right. - When you only got three chords in the truth, the three chords are as interesting as what's happening in the words. - Okay, so I think my lyrical bane of my existence comes from another artist that I really, really love. One of my favorites, which is Donnie Ver, and the way that he kind of just mumbles sounds and then converts them into words. And I think a lot of artists do that, but then they convert them into meaningful words. And Donnie Ver doesn't really convert them into meaningful words. So I will do a dramatic reading for you. - Okay. - Only love is all maroon. Glue feathers on a flume. Sky is womb and she's the moon. Sky is womb, she's the moon. - Oh, yeah. That is deep. Or then I can understand. - I love this song so much, but if I was a lyrix person, would I hate it? I don't know. All right, so in the end, after testing all these people, over 1,000 people, Donnie found that a lot of them were more strongly lyrix. So closer to seven, a lot of them were more strongly music, closer to one, some of them were right in the middle, around a four, but on the whole, there was sort of like a hump in the distribution, and that centered around five. So she found that most people are lyrix people. She said it's kind of like a Cosmo quiz, basically, like how much of an X are you? But this is way more scientific. Like they didn't just pick random prompts. They took a bunch of prompts, they saw what worked, what didn't, which ones measured everything they wanted to measure, which ones actually led to consistent answers and not kind of random answers all over the place. And those are the ones they chose to run by people. But that's just half the work. So here's how she described it. You want to make sure that someone who gets a seven on the test, if you give them a test on lyrix memory or something, they should do better than someone who scored a one. They still need to test the results to see if it actually is giving real answers. Like if it has predictive value. Because otherwise you're measuring something that you made up and maybe it behaves well statistically, but it's not actually validly corresponding to the thing in the world, the construct that you're actually trying to measure. - So they wanted to have them listen to music and see if they got lyrix. But they didn't want to use music that people were familiar with. So they went to the Australian pop charts, which apparently have like all the same genres we do. They got rock, rap, pop, country. Dominique told me that the Australian country songs for some reason are still about Texas. So doing that what you will. And she asked them questions basically like who was the main character, who was sitting in the car next to this person. And they did find that the people that scored higher on the lyrix scale were able to answer these questions better. So the way they answered those prompts did accurately represent how well they paid attention to lyrix and songs. - It's real. - It's real. - Okay. - So this whole idea of some people are more music people, some people are more lyrix people, that one researcher who said it didn't exist who was trying to gaslight you, no, it's real. It's a real thing. - Feel so validated. One thing that immediately occurs to me is like, we're both musicians. And I was wondering like does that have some inherent bias? Is there a musician's shift bias? - This is the question. I think this is exactly what I went into this thinking I am a musician, I've trained on many instruments, I know music theory, that must explain why I pay more attention to music. And this is the thing that like blew me away. Dominic told me that musical training doesn't really impact your score. - Interestingly, we found really, really little evidence that these things matter at all. So I was really, really surprised. - Really, music training didn't impact the score here? So there's small moments where it seemed to maybe matter but there's no strong evidence that over our whole sample you get these strong lawful relationships between people's musical training and like their lyrixiness, which was really surprising to me. - But Dominic says this actually kind of makes sense. We are just all exposed to so much music and sound all the time. Like even you and I, we're playing music on a couple hours a day at like tops. I mean, I'm not practicing guitar that much anymore but even people that play guitar for several hours a day it can't compete with 15 hours a day that you're just like hearing ambient sound and pitches and birds and music and honks and all this stuff in the world. - The musicality is fundamental to our human experience. - Exactly. - When we're talking, we are speaking with intonation, we're rising, we are falling. We hear the timbre of our voice is identifying who we each are. All the various components of music rhythm. I am speaking in time. - Exactly. - Posing. - And she also just looked at all kinds of things. She looked at age, she looked at gender and she just couldn't find an easy way to explain the difference. And in the end, I think we get to this point where it's just a big mystery, right? Like what makes someone a music or a lyrix person? At this point, we don't know. - Team music. Also, also team music. But she has a lot of questions about all this. This is like the initial research that's showing that this is a real phenomenon. Like do you have questions about this? Now that you know that this is a real thing and we also don't know what explains it. - I do want to know whether or not it's trainable to move from a one to a seven. It's something that has been happening in my life. I'm writing a lot more songs. I profess about music and teach songwriting. And I'm required to listen at a level granular detail to lyric in a way that I never had in my life before. And now lyrix are coming to me in this whole new way. It's so exciting. 'Cause I feel like, oh my gosh, this whole new world of music is opening up to me. I wonder how other people can also move between these skills. - That's actually one of her questions. Is it genetic? How much of it is nurture? How long does it take for you to get nurtured into this? Like how long does it take for you to become a one or a seven? So I want to just play you what you said there. And so I think a lot of the time when we think about these individual differences, we talk about them as though they're sort of like calcified forms where it's just like this is who you are. Right, but that's not exactly how it works either because we're continuing to develop through adulthood with all of the experiences and the training and the practice that we seek. - And the reason this is important of like trying to tease out music and language is that there's really a lot of impacts here. Like I don't want to just say that scientific research only matters when there's like practical biomedical impacts but there are practical biomedical impacts. And I would tell you all about them after a quick break. - Support for the show comes from Shopify. Taking the leap and finally starting a business is not easy. 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Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mithmobile.com/switch. Up from payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan required, $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees extra. The initial plan term only greater than $50 gigabytes me slow when network is busy, see terms. Picture it. Summer, you and your girls at your favorite patio bar, the sun's out, the breeze is perfect, and you're looking standing in that new sun dress. And what are we drinking? A Cumpari Spritz. It's just Cumpari, Perseco, and soda water. Bold, iconic, and perfectly bitter, just like you. Check out official cocktail recipes at Cumpari.com. Cumpari Spritz, stay bitter. Cumpari L'Cour, 24% alcohol by volume 48 proof. 2026 Cumpari America, New York, New York. Please enjoy responsibly. [MUSIC] So, here's what Dominic said. We have a lot of interesting treatments for neurological and brain disorders. For stroke, for example, there's this thing called melodic intonation therapy, which helps patients rebuild their language networks by attaching language to song. So, you sort of sing sentences on your way to being able to recover your ability to say the sentences again. There's stuff with music and speech for dementia patients, how music can kind of get through to dementia patients a little bit. There's research on education, all kinds of things. I mean, music and memory is amazing. Oh, yeah. I was visiting my wife's grandparents, and her grandfather's in his 90s was singing songs to me that he had learned in fourth grade that were all these mnemonic devices to remember classical melodies. And by putting words to the classical melody, he was able to sing them, but he was singing things that he learned in fourth grade. I do this all the time. I mean, when I was in school and I had to memorize the order of the books of the Bible or something, I actually put them into a rhythm. I mean, I was a drummer, but I put them into a rhythm, and I would just go through it in my head, and I still remember it, and it's gibberish. But the rhythm is still in my head. It helps. Yeah. So, at the end here, we've got basis for future research on what causes some people to be music or lyrics people. You know, we got to do more research, genetics, nurture, how long it takes. Can you switch? We've got some interesting ways. We could use this to actually help people, dementia patients, stroke patients, just this kind of basic understanding of the thing that makes us us, which is music and language in a lot of ways. Where does it come from and how does it work? Great questions. But there is this question in here that I can't stop thinking about. If you hear a song, any kind of sound, really, it can seem like we're all just listening to the same thing, right? If you hear a noise, you and I might assume we're hearing the same thing, but I've done a lot of reporting showing that our brain isn't just, you know, hearing a sound that exists out in the world. It's editing the sound. It's processing it in a unique way, and it's almost having a sort of performance in your brain. And what happens is that we end up processing sounds in actually pretty different ways. So this is the, like, do you see the same color orange that I see? Or do you hear the same color orange out here? Right. But I, so basically, this is what we're getting at when we talk about, okay, we're both listening to Billy Bragg and Wilco, and we're kind of hearing different things. Whoa. We're not just focusing on different parts. We are hearing different things. And here's what I mean. I talked to the psychologist, Diana Deutsch, a few years ago. She does tons of great research on audio perception, and she has this great example of how we hear things differently, like the same things. We hear things differently. So this is an audio illusion she made that listeners might have heard on the show before. But this is called the tritone paradox. And I want to just play you this one. Okay. Did you hear that going up or down? Down. So you heard it going down? I hear that going up. You're wrong. So here's the first one. Yeah. Down. Up. Down. Down. Oh, I don't know. I thought we were the same. I thought you were my friends. So her idea is that different people based on where they grow up and based on the sounds that they're exposed to actually hear the same exact thing in different ways. So we just listened to that like simplest thing, a tritone. And you heard it going down and I heard it going up. I heard the next one going up. I heard it going down. Apparently, we are different. And there's a whole bunch of other illusions that she uses to kind of illustrate that people can hear the same thing differently. I don't know. There's a certain level at which I'm a bit. I'm kind of in awe about that. I think that's so cool that we can all hear different things and come together. And then I'm also kind of sad. It's almost like we're all at a concert with our AirPods in, you know? I'm trying to like wait these things that, you know, we go to a concert and we perceive different things. I often go to concerts with my friend Harrison, who is the drummer in my band. We'll often be watching the same thing and I will be drawn to the sound of the drums because he's standing next to me and I can see him noticing. And that's not an experience that I would be having if I were not standing next to Harrison at that concert. I would not be paying attention to the drums, but knowing that his experience and his perception of that is different has opened up a door in a world of perception to me that he didn't have before, which I think is really cool. She notices him noticing the drum. And that makes her more curious, right? Like that brings something out in her that wouldn't come out if she was just listening to music in the way that she's comfortable to listen to. Yeah. I mean, there's maybe like a potential cynical conclusion we could have come away with, which is like we're all just having our own experience. We're alone together. But in fact, music is inherently social. Right. That they are having a special experience, that connection, knowing that, yeah, we are hearing different things, but when we get to share that thing that we both enjoy, it makes us very human. I mean, we're not ants, right? We're not the board. Right. We have to have differences between us in order to have meaningful social interaction. If you were exactly the same as me, you're so boring. If we both heard that try to go down, it would be really boring, right? But if we have differences in perception, if Nate's wife listens to the lyrics and Nate listens to the music, that gives them something to talk about. That's like a perceptual gap that actually allows them both to step in and kind of learn something about each other or learn something about the music or like Dominique says, perceive the music in a different way. Hmm. I love this. It's beautiful. I mean, it really is about fundamentally being a person. And this happened to be very recently. I went to a concert with one of my good friends, Nolan, who loves the artist Jason Isbel. And I kind of know his work, but I wasn't as familiar. And Jason often plays with a band. It's like really engaging. But this show was a small intimate theater show, just Jason and his acoustic guitar, which is mesmerizing and beautiful. And so at the time, I was like, this song kind of reminds me of that other song. And next to me, Nolan is having a profound experience. There's like a rhyming pair will happen. He was going, oh, I'm like, oh, I totally missed that one. I was totally zoned out paying attention to the guitar. And what did that do? Like did you talk to Nolan about it? Like, what did that? I feel like to go to a concert and just have an entirely different experience is somewhere. I feel like we don't actually have good social permission to talk about this music lyric divide. I feel like you were helping us create that. But at the time, I didn't want to deflate his experience at all. So I think right after the show was like, that was really moving. And I was like, I remember talking about like, I can see that it was really moving for you. I'm not as familiar with the music. What I meant to say was, I'm not as familiar with the words. I definitely came away being, it was not as impactful to me at all. And since then, I have revisited Jason is music and it is. Yeah. The song that stuck out to me was called Open and Close. Can we just play a clip for a second? No. This one stood out because it's about someone from Alabama from the South. And he has made this record in New York City. And you can tell that this is kind of like the first time someone's been like, what is a doorman? Like, there's a whole social institution about doorman and how they provide services to the city. And he says it's just like the nice person like letting in all the right friends. And you can really hear this sort of contrast between the attention or yeah, the attention between those are like organic roots, equality of his music and the manufactured nature of city life. That's so pretty. And you probably wouldn't have thought about it this way if it hadn't been for the experience of going to that concert, sitting next to Nolan. Oh, it was all through the track.
of his experience. Yeah, this is what I love about what Dominique was saying about going to that concert and seeing her friend, the drummer, and her band Harrison, just totally losing himself and the drums. And then Dominique is like, "Oh, there is this whole other world that I'm not paying attention to." In this case, it's not music and lyrics, it's drums. But then it just makes you realize that every single part of a sound, someone is hyper focused on it. Like every little part of a sound has some story to tell without getting too cliché. I believe it. But this difference of music and lyrics and what we focus on, I feel like this is the tip of the iceberg. And the further down you go, you realize, okay, some people pay attention to drums, some people pay attention to guitar, some people pay attention to harmony, some people pay attention to melody. Right. And then at a really base level at the bottom of the iceberg, we can each hear the simplest interval, like a tritone, and we can hear totally different things. And you build up from there and you're like, "Oh, actually, we have completely different takeaways from any song we hear." Even as a trained musician, I really have to work hard to try to hear everything at once. Right. It's the equivalent of like walking into a restaurant and trying to hear every conversation. We don't actually have the mental capacity to do that. And when music is happening, we can only tune our attention to so many things at any given time. I think that's also why I love to hear a song again and again and again. It's that every time I'm hearing it, I actually truly am paying attention to different things. I'm hearing it with new ears. Yeah. I think that feels like a good place to stop. Boom. Thank you for doing this. Wow. Thank you for the question, Charlie. Wow. Thank you for sending me down this two years long rabbit hole. I'd like to think that you were only doing this for two years. Yes. No, that's all I was doing. I mean, I keep calling and sick and they're like wondering where I am. And I'm just like, I'm talking to music researchers and no one's giving me the answer. I'm stunned. I really feel validated and but also I feel like I fit more in the world now. This episode was produced by Valerie Shinkman and me. No, I'm Hassan Fowl. He was edited by Joanna Salataraf. Our video editors are Shelby Smith and Alex Coles. Our animator is Karim Kareya. Our fact checker is Melissa Hirsch. Our studio engineers are Devon Howard and Joe Nebres. Mixing and sound design from Chris Jenaela, music from me, Meredith Hoddenott runs the show, and Bird Pinkerton looked around and saw a large white chamber with black curtains. Her big beeper was going nuts. We saw a group of birds standing in the center waiting to greet Flapden. This is Jeff Beak, he said. That's Jimmy Cage and these are the yard birds. Special thanks to Dave Baker and thanks as always to Brian Resnick for co-creating the show with me and Bird. If you want to see the video version of this episode, you can find us on Netflix. And if you have thoughts about the show, we would love to hear from you. Please email us at
[email protected]. Tell us what kind of mysteries you want us to look into on the video show. And if you want to support the show, join Vox. Become a member. Just go to vox.com/members. And if you signed up because of us, let us know. Unexplainable is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. And we'll see you right back here next time. We all have to drink water. And staying hydrated is one of the simplest ways to feel your best. But come on. How is your relationship with water really? Are you getting enough from it? Is it satisfying you? Or is drinking it becoming a chore? Here's a tip to spice things up. Hint water. With delectable flavors like watermelon, Georgia peach, even lemon zest freeze, hint is water that will make you desire water, no sugar, no sweeteners, no calories. It just goes the show. Sometimes the right hydration partner changes everything. Try hint. Available at drinkint.com and in stores nationwide. Support for the show comes from Delta Airlines. Delta is the top of the game, knows that greatness isn't just a destination. It's a grueling life long journey. It's built on early mornings, silent sacrifices, and an unwavering drive to outclimb the achievements of yesterday. That is the journey of a WNBA athlete. And Delta is there every step of the way. Delta is proud to host these competitors, providing charter flights for every WNBA team. To elevate their travel experience and champion equity on every leg of their trip, keep climbing with Delta Airlines, the official airline of the WNBA.
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