Are Taylor Swift, Drake, and Ariana Grande Moving Up or Down in the Pop Pantheon?

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Pot Pantheon," the podcast where we completely overanalyze all of your favorite pop stars and then rank them in the official "Pot Pantheon." This is your host, DJ, Louis XIV. Reminding you to please rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening to it now. Follow us on social media at potpantheonpod. Buy our merch at potpantheonpod.com and subscribe to our Patreon channel, "Pot Pantheon All Access," where we're doing weekly bonus episodes of this show. This past week, Russ and I were diving into Miley Cyrus' new single "Based Persuades," and also ranking all of the lead singles from Miley Cyrus' entire career. Among some other stuff I shared my experiences at the Backstreet Boys show, at the sphere in Las Vegas. So a real fun grab bag over there. So you can get that at patreon.com/potpantheon or you can subscribe for the audio only directly in the Apple Podcasts app. All right, so I'm here with Russ, Russ, good morning. - Good morning, Louis. It has been so long since we have done a step up, step down. This is a little conversation starting game that we play a couple of times a year at least. Whenever there have been enough pop stars making noise out in the marketplace of pop, we like to have a discussion about how the music landed. We're gonna talk today about a bunch of actually pretty big pop stars and their recent eras, their recent music. We're gonna talk about it as art. We're gonna talk about how it landed commercially, critically, all of the above. As always, when we are doing step up, step down, this is not an adjudication of any sort of tier ranking. It is a conversation about a slight step up, not a whole tier jump. So the last time that we did this, we talked about Olivia Rodrigo, Madonna, Michael Jackson. It was a weird summer, but this time we're going to start off with my brother in Nation Drake. ♪ Meet me baby ♪ ♪ Call my phone and say you need me baby ♪ ♪ I'm so pretty, you gotta teach me, baby ♪ ♪ From that holy little piece, see, baby ♪ - Wow, read off our little thing here about what's been going on with Drake, because frankly, it's not something that I feel like I have a lot of first-hand interactions with. - Yeah, I knew the Drake released three albums, and I did listen to one of them. - That's all that can be asked. - Yeah, listener and frequent caller and commenter on the show Garrett recommended one of the albums, and I did give it a go, and I gotta say I didn't mind it. - But it's not this one, right? It's not the one that everyone's into, Iceman. - Yeah, so Iceman is the hero album as it were, and Drake has a current hit single "Off of Iceman." The song is called Janice STFU, y'all know what that stands for. It debuted at number one. It stuck there for a second week. It was his first Billboard-reported multi-week number one of the decade. So earlier in the 2020s, Drake was sort of launching songs to number one, but they would drop off right away or at least drop a bit right away. This song is really a legit hit as of pulling my stats. It was still in the top 20 after 15 weeks on the chart. 300 million streams, Drake now holds the title for the most number one songs on the Hot 100 of all time for a male solo act. 14 number ones, Besting, King of Pop Michael Jackson. - Wow. - This song, as we said, it's Iceman. So that album debuted at number one. It moved half a million copies. Spent three weeks at number one as well. So this is an album that is sticking around that people were continuing to listen to after the week that it was released. Sort of one of the few blockbusters, I would say that was released this year from a pop star, kind of trashed by critics. A lot of people didn't love this album. 51 of Metacritic. Pitchfork gave it a 4.8. It did produce another hit. So there's a song called Shabang. ♪ What's the way life is lit ♪ ♪ But I know I get better than that ♪ ♪ I know I get better than that ♪ ♪ I know I get better than that ♪ It has 15 weeks on the Hot 100, a top five hit. And normally this is about how much I would have to say about any recent era. I was gonna say quite a monologue. Yeah, quite a monologue already. And guess what, there's a lot more to go because this man did a super spray and prey. He flooded the market. He dropped his 10th and 11th studio albums along with this one. This was a strategy that commercially, it really did. He occupied the top three spots on the Billboard 200. The week of release. So Habit at number two, and then made of honor. And number three, made of honor is the one that I personally listened to. Habit a bit better reviewed. 59 Metacritics, 6.5 on Pitchfork. Critics were friendliest to the album that I listened to, made of honor. Back out of 68 on Metacritic and an eight on Pitchfork. It was at the kind of like more R&B like Poppy one. That was like the songs for the ladies. - Drac album? - Correct. Yeah, listen, we don't always do there are two genders. But there are two genders of Drake songs. And one of them is good music for women. And I can get behind that. And the other is like some alt-right pipeline, streaming, bro, cool, killer core. Exactly that I am just like, it is so outside of my zone. And also it feels spiritually unclean. And I'm concerned about it. But remember the era where Drake could hit all of those things at once, he was so good. This is what I was thinking as you were talking about this. And maybe as instructive to our conversation, which is that like, there was a time where Drake and Taylor were like king and queen. But it just feels like at this point, she's surpassed him in every way, right? I mean, she's kind of left him in the dust in terms of just being like the last remaining like monocultural superstar. Because I'm gonna be honest with you, Russ. I haven't listened to any of these albums. And frankly, I've probably listened to Janice STFU like three separate times. And I still don't remember what it sounds like. Like I think it's always been in the context of like, you've made me listen to it basically for some reason. And I did listen to Shabang recently because of our song of summer episode because it was in the top 20. Don't remember it at all. This all happens completely outside of my sphere of knowledge. That said, it's obviously still huge with men, mostly and some straight women. Yeah, I don't think that a lot of lesbians and bisexual queens are listening to this. And like not the straight women that like hang out with me. No, correct. Like a different segment of straight women. Straight women who think straight men have good music taste. Does that make sense? So no shade. That's one thing. So that's comparing Drake to, let's call it 2018 Drake. Yeah, that's about the time. Like in my feelings, nice for what, like everyone's happy. Like he's got everyone on board. So we're definitely down from there, I would say. But I guess the question is, are we up from not like us? E third Drake. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. At the interim album with $Tied Allersign that also had like a hit that interestingly, I was going back and preparing for this and looking at Drake's Spotify that song. Which I did like. What was that one called again? No, Kia. That was a good song. I liked that song. But not in his top 10 on Spotify currently. So like definitely like a hit for Drake. But I don't know if it's like a hotline bling, nice for what style? Like mega hit sort of song for Drake. Like a solid hit for Drake. That definitely like was his first like, okay, I'm still alive after Kendrick ended me, whatever. So yeah, like are we up from there? I guess that's kind of the question. Like are we up from there? Are we static from there? Is this kind of the new ceiling for Drake in a way? Like is there a way for Drake to get back to that kind of like upper echelon? Like rise above the fray Taylor Swift level again? Is that door now closed forever? Like these are some questions I'm holding about this. And it's kind of hard for me to say because it feels like it's happening like completely outside of my world. So I feel like I'm almost like a scientist like studying something in a petri dish. Whereas like the rest of these topics today, like I feel like I have a firsthand feeling about in a bigger way. Yeah, I think that this is a super fandom that is operating in a silo. Which is more or less how pop started is happening these days. It's happening for other pop stars that we are going to talk about as well, where they have super sized hits that I am mostly unfamiliar with. It is however miraculous to me the Drake has been able to come back in terms of at least cultural cachet within his fandom. There was a moment during not like us that it felt like Drake fans were also out on Drake. And Drake fans are definitely back in on Drake. That sounds like a silly thing to say. But I think that it is worth noting that there was a time when it felt like this guy was just over. And he has definitely risen from the ashes. I don't know that he was ever going to get back to 2016. I don't know the way he was operating is a way that you can operate anymore. And I think that Drake is like Taylor. incredibly savvy. He's a really good marketer. and I think that he has changed what he is trying to do, and that has been incredibly successful for him, 'cause we're so far into this guy's career, and the fact that he is able to operate this way at this level, and with a, you know, handicap, as it were given what happened with a huge cultural thing, I think that if Drake were to do the Super Bowl, or if Drake were to, you know, do the FIFA World Cup, or some sort of mass televised event, if Drake was able to participate in culture outside of his world garden, that he could have some sort of a moment that would feel huge. I don't know that it would necessarily be a song, but it might lead to a song being big. It's interesting that these Drake songs don't feel necessarily propelled by, like TikTok, or the algorithm the way that a lot of Paulie does. - Or algorithms, I mean, maybe they aren't real. - Yeah, that's true. - Is this Drake's reputation era wherein, you know, he's still huge, like reputation still sold over a million copies in its first week. It had big hits on it technically, although they didn't feel as like culturally who just like shake it off or whatever, but they were still big songs. And then ahead of him is still like some sort of whatever his version of a folklore is where he like resets, brings back in a new cohort of fans that had written him off by going back to basics and then has like another era of like hugeness or cultural broadness that we like couldn't have foreseen, you know what I mean? Like, 'cause there was a moment as Swifties won't recall where it felt like Taylor, post-reputation was just on the way towards more of just like a halo career. Kind of like Drake feels like right now, where like he's still huge, she was still huge, she's still doing stadium tours, she's still selling tons of records, but it's like the era of her cultural dominance is over. And she really rewrote the story on that. I wonder like, is there a possibility that Drake does that? Or are we just kind of like on the way towards like a downward slope? That's like one thing that I'm wondering about. It's also a different phase of his career. He's really, he's way more into it. Yeah, than Taylor was. You stole the words right out of my mouth. I think we got to apply the same age as Yardstick that we would apply to a female pop star here. And that just like, he's a little long in the tooth to be dominating in the future. More than he is dominating now, the fact that he is dominating now, given that he is a cash millennial, like said with like I see you Drake and I share a lot in common, actually. For sure. Shout out to cash millennials. Who we are as people, but yeah. Wait, okay. So who do you see right now in the pop landscape who are Drake's commercial contemporaries? Ooh. If we're saying he's not Taylor. No, who are his contemporaries? The weekend? Yes. And I mean literally, that's his contemporary. That's his beer in so many ways. We're like one notch below Taylor, basically. Like one step below Taylor. I think the weekend is a really good comp. Maybe Bad Bunny is a little bit higher. Again, Bad Bunny's rise was just later. So he feels like there's a freshness. Like he's hot there. And I feel that there is an open possibility for the future of Bad Bunny that I don't necessarily feel for Drake. What about this? Uh-huh. Ed Sheeran. No, Drake has way more sauce. He has way more left in the tank than Ed Sheeran. Ed Sheeran touring stadiums as we speak. But I have had eyes on the commercial decline of Ed Sheeran in terms of the music that he is releasing. And Ed Sheeran does not have two songs in the top 20, my God. OK, it's hard to say because she doesn't release music. But let's pretend she did. What about Rihanna? No, Rihanna will body this ho. Do you think so? No, I don't actually. I think that's-- Yeah, I wish that was true. But Rihanna? OK, do you want to just not to detour, but they are related in many ways, like there, of course? Rihanna not having released a new solo album in 10 years, currently, as time stands, has 116 million monthly listeners on Spotify. Every single one of her top 10 songs is over 1 billion streams. Drake has 90, just for contrast. Wow. That is fucking crazy. That is, yeah. Like, that is more than every other pop girly in her cohort. That is more than Lady Gaga, who is still pumping up to 4 billion streams with, die with a smile. That is more, Russ, than Taylor Swift, who has 100 million monthly listeners at the current moment. What's happening with Rihanna? We'll have to detour. I just think Rihanna is perennially cool. I think if we're talking about cashed millennials, I kind of think like Rihanna, even though she is kind of giving soccer mom these days, I just think musically speaking, I think young kids still listen to Rihanna music and think that that is cool. I think Gen Z probably thinks Bad Romance is a fun wedding song, but does not think that is a cool song, whereas I think Gen Z thinks work is a cool song. That's my impression of it. Back to Drake. To me, I feel this is a very smart step lateral. Like I just feel like the spray release was really smart. He has found effective ways to kind of like get out of the question of like what you were saying, which is like, are you washed forever? Like, no, obviously not. But he hasn't like risen fully from the ashes into a full triumph. I don't view this era and I go like, Drake has triumphed. Not like us in the past, all of that in the past. Like I still feel like he has the stain of that on him to some degree, like he's not. As you said, he's doesn't seem cool all of a sudden anymore. And I think that kind of happened like basically overnight for us, it didn't have an overnight, but for a lot of people, it seemed like overnight, he kind of lost that like, invincibility, the male counterpart to Taylor Swift. Narrative seemed to like kind of like slip through his fingers. Again, he has effectively recovered from like the free fall, I think, but I don't think that he has like regained his stature and I don't think that like this project has moved him like, meaningfully beyond where he was with the tie dollar sign project. I think it has like continued the idea that he is still capable of making hits, he's not washed. But I don't think that he has like triumphed into like Drake is back. Yeah, Drake has certainly beaten the odds, but he hasn't defied gravity as you sometimes see a pop start you. Like folklore, like Taylor's kind of rebake. Yeah, to me, it's like he should be thrilled with how lateral this is, you know what I mean? Like it's still like lateral parentheses like complementary. That's how I see it. Yeah, I feel that this is very similar to the conversation that we had after Nokia was exactly. I feel like we're exactly where we were. They're like, he's continued to kind of bob along the surface, but he hasn't like reimagined himself in popular culture and imagination in a way where I'd be like, oh, Drake's on the op again. Hell yeah. So we are saying step lateral for this. I'm saying step lateral. I mean, I don't know, are you agree? Absolutely. We have said her name a bunch already. It is time for us to talk about Taylor Allison Swift. At the start of June, Taylor's surprise dropped a song. It's called I knew it. I knew you. It is part of the Toy Story 5 soundtrack. This is her stated return to country music. The track was her first in years to be service to country radio. It is specifically described as a country song and a press release from Disney that came out when the song was dropped. Has been a gargantuan successor. 15th number one, it has been in the top five all summer. Basically universally acclaimed upon release including by yours truly, Taylor has seemingly pretty effortlessly scored a smash hit this summer. Yeah, agree. Do you think this song feels bigger than the fate of Ophelia? No. Do you think this song seems bigger than Opalite? No. Yes. I think so. The fate of Ophelia was a big hit. Yes. That was a big old hit. I feel like that's the one feather in the cat. I mean, that and selling the most records any record is sold in its first week ever. For an album that is like, I think largely thought of negatively, like it really did have those couple of things in the bag. Yeah, and I think that this is a bit of what I was talking about earlier. And again, like Drake, Taylor is a really, really savvy marketer. This was smart, yeah, with her last record. She understands that you need to create a cultural moment. And she did that with the movie theater release. I think that any Taylor album was going to be a big cultural moment. But she really smartly made something that her fan culture then pushed out into the wider world. And I just have visions of my nieces singing the fate of Ophelia at a movie theater. I saw so many videos on social media around that time. And that song then felt like it was part of culture. I think that was her biggest bonafide true not fake hit in like a long time. time. I mean, definitely since like anti-hero, but like maybe since like 1989, like, I don't know, like that was like a true to God smash in a way that like Taylor singles all debut at number one and then feel like more like kind of like, again, hits, but not like culturally defining hits. And I think this one feels like that to me. And also, talk about Savvy. I think this song is a direct acknowledgement from her of everything people did not like about life of a show girl, like she knows what everybody thinks about that album. And she said, going back to basics, and we know it's her 13th studio album. She obviously is constantly playing 3D chess with everybody. You know, we're all waiting for the Taylor's version of her first album, the country album. Then there's going to, I mean, like, there's a whole, she has 20 steps ahead of everybody in her mind, which is like, you know, you got to hand it to her. To me, it's hard to say, like, step up, step down with Taylor because like, there's just like, just the limit exists. I don't know. The only thing that I can throw into the mix is I do think life of a showgirl while a commercial obviously, like juggernaut here to for unseen. I do think that represented a breaking point even for Swifties. Like they were not even out here defending that as a piece of work. Like they normally would like normally Swifties are ready to go to war over anything. I felt and the Swifties in my life confirm that there was a broad consensus that like, this is not a great Taylor Swift album, even amongst them. And I think their willingness to admit that was interesting and presents an interesting foil for Taylor that actually is kind of something she loves, which is being the underdog improving people wrong. You know, that's always been a really effective kind of mode for her. So maybe it's perfect timing for that kind of thing, for her to have something to work against for her to have like a fructive tension to work against in culture, like maybe she again, maybe she's a mastermind that she planned of this all along. I wouldn't put it past her, but I don't know. I think the real step up question is going to be like, what is the next major Taylor Swift project and how is it received? Because I think if life of a showgirl did put people off, we'll see that in the reaction to this new album possibly. I think she's doing a really good job of soft launching that. I think everything's working well. I think this was a super savvy and smart move. You could easily have seen her releasing a soundtrack song to Toy Story 5 at debuts high and then we never hear about it again. And nobody would think that that was like a big deal either way. Like that happens with soundtracks songs all the time. I don't think people would have held that against her per se. But I think the fact that this was big speaks to it being a solid song in and of itself and speaks to the fact that like even if people didn't love showgirl, they're definitely not ready to write Taylor Swift off in any meaningful way. I don't know. So like, how do you say step up from an album that debuted at 3.5 million copies and like you had two number one hits? You know, it's like it's hard to like sort of say like step up, but like definitely not step down, right? Oh definitely not. What you were saying was making me think of the reaction to me and something that I was saying a lot about Taylor in the 2010s is she makes music for children. And I think that there is an element of the life of a showgirl that is servicing the new audience of literal children that got on board with the re-release of her past few records. And if you look again at the videos from those events when she dropped to the album, there was a lot of little girls. One of her best moves has been getting a new generation of fans on board. And that has been the thing that has allowed her to make like the ultimate career step up throughout the course of re-releasing all of those albums. However, Taylor reads criticism. Taylor is aware of criticism. Think back to the documentary, it was called Miss Americana, right? Where she talks about the Grammys and she talks about album of the year. She cares for herself. She cares. And she knows that many people whose opinion, Taylor herself values, thought that this was not her strongest piece of work. And I see, I knew it, I knew you, as a trial balloon for her return to country music. Which couldn't be better time to let's be honest. Country music is literally the biggest it's ever been. And not music. And I think that she will be able to get ahead of Ella Langley if she goes back to Nashville. Ella Watley. Please, she's gonna fucking body her. And she'll probably feature her on the album. I knew it, I knew you couldn't de-throw and choose in Texas this summer. But it didn't need to because it was the soundtrack song. That's the brilliance of it. It was super smart. The whole thing was really smart. And it's such a low-key song too. It's like it was so wisely positioned. It doesn't feel like an event. It just is quietly a big hit. So that is a step lateral. Yeah, step lateral maybe like slight step up in the sense that I think that it did a lot in terms of like remedying in a minor way or starting to remedy the critical problems that life of a showgirl had. Yes, it's good and it's smart. There's a lot of people that did not like life of a showgirl that liked this song. Correct. And one of them is sitting in this chair talking to you. Audrey Hobart. Say it again. "Sumia want to be aww." "Sumia want to be yeah." The artist of Louis lifetime, Audrey Hobart. Literally. I still listen to this album every fucking week multiple times. And actually, I have slowly brought Jack over literally one song at a time. At first, he was like, "This is disgusting. I hate it. I'll never listen to it." And then like, slowly but surely he's like, "Yeah, I do kind of like that one." Yeah, I kind of like that one too. Oh yeah, that one's pretty good too. One of the greatest victories of my entire relationship. Sorry, go on. Her first entry ever on the hot 100 with the song that Louis has so generously been singing. It was actually released last May. It is, of course, off of the DJ Louis the 14th acclaimed who's the clown. So far, 62 is the peak of this song over in the UK, 21. First song to crack 100 million streams on Spotify. Driven in part by videos of her performances, which have won her over a lot of new fans. Louis, as a scholar of Audrey Hobart, what's your next move? How can she capitalize on this? How can she propel this further? How can Sumi become a true blue bonafide hit? First of all, I think Sumi's becoming a true blue bonafide hit on its own merits as it well should. This is what I'm hoping for. There does feel like there's a big groundswell. I mean, watching the video of her perform, that's a la la polusa, and everybody's saying that song back to her. She seemed shocked at everybody else about what was happening, and that was so beautiful to see. I'm so proud of her. Also watching this body Gracie Abrams album, just in terms of cultural import is extremely fun. I think she needs to follow Chapel Roan's model, and she needs to drop some good luck babe rando single here in the midst of this all happening. This is the thing. I went to the Audrey Hobart show. This girl literally has 10 songs, period. The show was 42 minutes long or big and she did Sumi twice. I think the way to get this going is to kind of like get everything going in the way that Chapel Roan did where she had like four hits kind of slowly bubbling around simultaneously. The lead single from the album. The new song she dropped. Other songs from the album starting to catch fire like Silver Jubilee is also kind of like moving pretty well in the streaming ecosystem. She just dropped a video for that. That's like kind of the model that I think she needs to follow. I don't know how prolific of a creator. She is like part of the story of Audrey Hobart is like sumi's like the fifth song she ever wrote. It's not like Chapel Roan who was like by the time this was happening. She was like 10 years into her music career and like a very seasoned songmaker. Very recently she was writing television. That's what I'm saying. She only decided she wanted to write music like recently. So like I don't know that we know what her like creative process is. Like I don't know how prolific she is. I don't know if she's gonna be a flood the market type of girly. But my hope is that she has new music out soon. Right. Because I think that's kind of the method to sort of like keeping the vibes going. It's like feeding the machine and like hopefully dropping like a new song that feels you know the way the good luck they was like kind of like chapel's purest pop shot so far. I kind of feel like Audrey needs to like without losing her core freakiness, which is obviously the thing that everybody loves about her. She needs to kind of like drop a banger in the middle of this whole affair. That's my feeling. Speaking of chapel follow-up question. Does she want to be a big pop star? I think she does because this album is essentially kind of about that. I mean this album is all about and like everything she talks about is like her decision to pursue stardom. You know like a lot of the songs are about like her dreams of stardom, which I guess is like kind of true of chapels album too in a way. Yeah but with both of them and increasingly with the new generation of pop stars, I'm wondering if like the type of stardom that right and also there's been a huge and there's been a huge backlash again. I've been wondering how Audrey's been dealing with like how cruel a lot of the internet has been like after her performance on tiny desk like there's obviously a lot of people that are coming to her and like we did we weren't being cruel to her. I don't think but like a lot of people's first reaction to Audrey Hobart is like what the fuck is this? And I wonder if she's just like used to that and like she's used to being kind of a quirky freak and like she does own that on a major level in her music and it's like kind of what it's about. But I can't imagine what that feels like to all of a sudden becoming on that kind of scale. - There's a real difference between being like a quirky outsider at a high school and being an outsider character in like American public life at a national scale or like viral on the internet or some like much larger stage. - I wonder if some of these young pop stars are more so envisioning a Robin model, you know? They wanna be famous enough to like maybe peak at an amphitheater and like still be able to go to a grocery store as Carly Rae Jepsen recently said. - But like some of that is as we saw with chapels like outside of their control totally. - The high thing also I'm wondering like is that a 2017, 2018 model of pop sort of that sort of is outmoded at this point because it's like I don't know, like Sumi is already a bigger song than Haim has ever had. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? Like Haim is this weird thing where it's like they have no hits but they have the critical acclaim and like they just kind of like exist in this very specific bubble. But like again, Sumi is already a bigger song than Haim has ever had. And it's only getting bigger. So like is that already getting her outside of that model in a way? And then you can be like Charlie where you sort of fumble around there forever and then all of a sudden accidentally you become like a superstar. No, obviously we know Charlie's super charmed and wasn't necessarily accidental per se. She obviously pursued it with fervor. But like I don't know, I don't know what she wants. I'm sure she's probably still trying to figure out what she wants. I don't think she's like Olivia Rodrigo where it's like she's built for this. She wants to be the biggest thing ever. And I think that her music would be worse if she was like that because I think part of what makes her music cool is that it's like very quirky and weird. And like I hope she never loses that, you know, it's gonna be interesting to see how she kind of streamlines if that is what she does. Like, you know, her process because this sort of frayed around the edges quirk is like what makes Audrey Hover great. So I don't know what she wants. I don't know if she knows what she wants. But what I want for her, I want this moment to keep building. I'm like really enjoying watching this freak get this far. And like I love her to keep proving to people that she's got the goods and I kind of feel like I'm hoping for more new music. 'Cause as of right now again, there's like 10 Audrey over her songs and they're all amazing. Perfect, 10 out of 10 songs. - This moment for Audrey really feels like the moment in like a '90s teen movie. - Yeah. - Like the outside of girl gets ground from. - Totally. - It's literally she's all that. - So this is obviously a step up. - A huge step up. Are you kidding me? Audrey queen of fucking pop. And it's actually like we have an interesting benchmark because I think like what was it? Two, three months ago you and me and Ivy were sitting in that episode being like are we overestimating this? It's not really happening. - You know, since then Sumi has doubled in streams. It has, she's had all these moments. It's suddenly in that one. I think if we were making that new pop girl power ranking list today, we would have an entirely different. We were right in terms of like where we thought it was heading. - Well, we would be more down the path than we would all, I think, be more bullish on it. - I think that we would have ended up in a similar spot quite frankly, but we would have had actual facts. More of the back end up, yeah. - We've been proven right. - I super step up. - Yes, super step up. So proud of her. We need to talk about the yang to this "Gracier" from us. ♪ But I hit the wall, I just hit the wall ♪ ♪ I'm not a problem you can solve ♪ - As this is all happening, Gracie, a childhood friend and collaborator of Audrey released a new album. Audrey is featured on One Track, "The Best Road." Otherwise, notably MIA from the credit, it's the key collaborator on this record is unfortunately Aaron Desner. This album debuted at number one, 124,000 copies, strong. It also was number one in the UK. The lead single, "Hit the Wall," kind of a minor hit. Stuck around the hot 115 weeks, but never actually cracked the top 20. The deluxe edition of her last album had the big hit. That's so true. The streams for this new record, the album tracks are averaging about 15 million. 63 metacritics is 0.2 on "Pitch Fork" as one star rises another falls. - Let's just also clarify. Not only collaborator, but Gracie's only two billion streamers written with Audrey. Let's also say, "Albums of Chop." So, the debut numbers are good, not like a woe exceptional. Like, it's about what I would have thought she would do. - Yeah. - Which I guess in and of itself is impressive given that the singles weren't happening. Like, she was not having a that so true moment. - Yeah, there's a fan base here, certainly, who's stuck around from the entry point of that so true. - Yeah, the critical thing is interesting because I think an artist like Gracie wants to be seen as like, "Cready," right? I mean, she's like the singer, songwriter. She wants to be seen as like, deep and meaningful in this way. The biggest failure here is that it is an album that is framed as a play towards critical acclaim. - Yeah. - But it misses that mark. Pop girls, lose Aaron Desner's number. - Please, God, please God. - Yeah, this is really tough because I'm like, I kind of do feel like it's a step down because I think underneath the surface, things are not going great with this era. It's one of those things where it's like, if you just look at the numbers, especially for the album debut, you gotta say like solid, as you said, like nothing to scoff at. But the vibe is like this era is not hitting. Like the last era and it's not hitting like, let's say someone like Olivia Rodrigo where like through the course of three albums, it just felt like there was a building sense of momentum towards like a bigger sense of stardom. Like if you think of the way that you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love, just like hit as an era, this feels like the opposite of that to me where it feels like things. As you sometimes say, like the era is coming out of the balloon slowly, you know what I mean? And like, I'm not surprised 'cause I don't think Racy Abrams has a lot to offer as a star. I've always said it. I don't mean to be rude about it. I just think she is serviceable. She's a serviceable facsimile of cooler things. Whether that be Taylor Swift, whether that be Audrey Hobart, whether that be Lord, whatever it is, she's someone that lacks a unique sense of identity. She's gorgeous, she's a NEPO baby. That's obviously really helped her. I think the Taylor Swift, like mega endorsements of her have been completely critical to everything that's happened for her, as has the Audrey Colerites. But I think that what we're seeing from this era is that like left her own devices, she doesn't have the vision or the singularity that you need to get to like the a list of pop stardom. And I think we might look back at something like that so true and see it more as a fluke than the new baseline. This is actually kind of clearly a step down. - Step down. - For me? Yeah. It's a soft step down, the fact that she was able to hold onto a big part of the fan base and have strong numbers on the album shows that there are people who see something in Gracie that maybe we don't, but I agree with you. I think that the biggest problem here is that the album doesn't make sense. The title doesn't make sense. The songs don't tell coherent stories. And we are leaving as the listener with a more muddled understanding of who this person is at a moment when it is essential for her to actually be solidifying and defining herself and her on record persona. And it's just like, to quote Lord, what was that? - What was that? I mean, truly, what was that? It just is like, listen, I'm open to being wrong. Gracie Abrams comes back with like the greatest album of the century, but I just like don't see it. I actually would be thrilled if Gracie Abrams came back with like a really cool and interesting perspective on the next record. I love to be proven wrong, but that's not what I'm seeing in Microsoft, though. - No, I think this is a step down for now. - Not like a bottoming out like a nightmare, but it definitely feels like things are not going the way that they had hoped they were going. Let's put it that way. - I don't think she flopped or anything, but I think it's a step down. - Talk about Charlie XCX. A lot of actually parallel questions happening with how to read the T-Leaves of this era. - So a follow up to a huge moment of commercial embrace with Brett. This album is called Music Fashion Film. I derived in July. debuted at number three. The same debut as Brett. Actually, she moved 78,000 units. 81 metacritic, 8.2 in pitchfork. Singles wise, she got two songs on the Hot 100. Rock music at 86, camera at 75. By comparison, that's actually the same as original recipe, Brat, that launched 360 to 41. Apple to 51. That was assisted by a TikTok hit. So not mega hits, but like songs that were on the Hot 100. Okay, but 360 and Apple were way bigger cultural events than either of these songs. - Okay, the remix to guess was number 12 that had a huge assist from Billie Eilish and Talk Talk was 74 with Troy. She recently had a viral hit party for you that got to 55. That actually beat out any of the singles from this on the charts. And also to me feels like the biggest cultural moment [BLANK_AUDIO] the past little while for Charlie XCX. - Still her number one streamer on Spotify. - Is it? - All right. - Yes, nearly 600 million streams of content for you. - If you had told me that in 2020, when now I'm feeling now dropped, I would have spat in your face. - I mean, that's something I like, Louie. (laughing) - I do wanna call out streaming numbers for these 'cause I think some of those chart positions are a little bit misleading. Camera has 24 million streams. - SS26, SS30, wink wink has 28, just to be 100 about that. - What does that tell us? - I mean, these songs are not hits. - Oh, okay, yay, yay. - She had some energy. She was coming off of her biggest area yet, so like the songs got debuts that like wouldn't have gotten before, but these songs are not hits. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Where it's 360 didn't debut on the Hot 100, but slowly worked, it's waited a number 40, which is a different thing. - Yes, absolutely, that is a good clarification to hold. - We talked a bunch about this record for those listeners who are on Patreon. We've had multiple episodes digging into the artistic statement, and actually also we have already talked about the commercial purchase because there has been lingering questions about how much she intended to let the air out of the balloon herself and how much she was hoping slash expecting for more listeners to follow. - A pretty sharp sonic pivot from her last era. - I am holding the question of what the actual commercial impact of Brat was outside of the cultural moment of Brat as well. That's something that I am constantly thinking that I have been bullish on, and you thought that I was Kuku for Coco Peps about, but I still-- - No idea, okay, when we got actually clarified and you stopped being like an annoying firebrand about it, I actually agree with you. - Oh my God, I love you. - This is a pretty clearly a step down, right? - Yeah, I mean, I think it's what you said, it's like an intentional step down, so like how do we talk about that? It's like, I think this is operating on terms that like most major pop releases don't, which is that like it tried to make her audience smaller. (laughing) So like, that's an interesting thing. I don't wanna make excuses for her, you know what I mean? Like, I still think there was a part of her that as she has another errors of her career that hope she could bend pop to her whim. - Yes. - And like, again, maybe not have an error that rivaled Brat in terms of cultural impact, but like maybe got a hit off, maybe got like a little bit of a viral TikTok moment. I don't know, like, wink wink could easily, you could see like a little meme happening to that. That's what makes it like a little bit more complex is like, it's creators intentions. Like, do we need to factor in I guess like, is it succeeding on its creators intentions? 'Cause I think we often walk into these step-up step-down questions with the baseline understanding that they all hope these albums are gonna be successful. But like, this is a rare instance where I'm like, what did she want to happen with this? Because I do think as we talked about on Patreon, this was a pretty smart answer to the Brat issue. And I continue to believe that. I continue to believe that like her tossing off a larky kind of like random feeling album like this, minor release type feeling album like this was actually like a pretty smart move in some ways. And like takes the pressure off of it. And I definitely do not think this is dispositive of her having a random hit again tomorrow, you know what I mean? Like as party for you proves, like Charlie could stumble into a random hit at any time. So in that way, like I wanna like mitigate the idea that this was just like some sort of failure because I don't necessarily think that it was. And yet obviously it's a step down from Brat. Like let's be like, let's not like mince words about that I guess. - Yeah, I will be really curious. Very shortly, I think both of us are going to see the tour for this and I will be really interested to see how this plays in a room, what the set list is going to be. - What the energy of the crowd is like. - Yes. - Because I think so much of the fun of the Brat tour was that like it was just such a zikai-stee moment that like the energy of the crowd was like truly one of the most electric feelings I've ever had in a live show. Like does that carry over here? - Yeah. - Does it feel a little bit? - Mm-hmm, yeah. I'll be interested to hear that. Like how do the core fans that are buying tickets to this interface with this music? - Because I'm really excited to see these songs live. I've listened to this record just a ton. I don't need any songs from Brat on the set list. I will be thrilled with that. - There's gonna be, let's be honest. - Yeah. - So she also put out a call on Twitter saying like, I want to play older songs. Like what do you guys want to hear? I, of course, suggested roll with me. The greatest strategy I've ever saw. - I think paired, especially with weathering heights, there is a intelligent move towards a type of career that Charlie wants, which is not to be forever chasing the high of Brat, but to be making music that has commercial purchase and critical acclaim. But she's not trying to be Michael Jackson. And intelligent there, I really enjoy this record. I went long on it a couple of weeks ago, but I can still see clearly. - Yeah. - This is like that. - You're clear. Speaking of Taylor earlier, it's like, I could say Charlie having a soundtrack song that randomly becomes like her first top 10 hits in the boom clap. But you know what I mean? Just like tomorrow, totally. - Let's finish off with Ariana Grande, who also in July dropped a album, a her eighth studio album is called Pedal. - You don't say. - Number one, moved 295,000 copies. Pretty big hit. I hate that I made you love me. It debuted at number one, stuck around the top five all summer, got nearly half a billion streams already on that song, rest of the album, pretty healthy averaging around 46 million for the tracks with that excluded. So the arena tour, 630 million tickets across the tour in 10 different cities. This album has a 67 on Metacritic 6.5 on pitchfork. Extra musically, the narrative on Ariana Grande has been uncomfortable throughout the course of the summer, despite that, she's having a lot of commercial purchase. - Yes. - And. - Yes, and as we would say, hello. - Pedal, the second single is currently number 34. On the hop 100 after debuting high, this song does not appear to be continuing. Hate that I made you love me is sort of sustainable hit making. And I would throw into the mix that critically speaking, Ariana Grande has actually been pretty consistently liked. - Nitritics. - Like, "Aternal Sunshine" was very well received. Thank you, Nex and Sweetener. Obviously, we're big critical successes. So this album is sort of being not loved by critics and even by some of her core fans, like our guest Rachel Handler, on our episode, "Friend of the Pod Miles, Tanzar." I don't know if I should be ranting him out, but texted me, like, "Big Ariana," and the week the album came out was like, "Obviously her worst album, like, without question." - Oh. - And that's our frame I have heard off-to-repeated by "Arionators." I mean, some love it. Again, there's many opinions, but that's just a lot of smart Ariana fans that I've spoken to that, you know, our music critics professionally to some degree or cultural critics are not seeing this as amongst her best works. So I think that's worth considering as well. In the same way that, like, we're talking about Gracie Abrams and her critical aspirations and all of that sort of stuff. - Or what about the life of a showgirl? - Or a life of a showgirl, 100%. At the same time, I think the fact that "Hate That I Made You Love Me" is such a low key type of song, and one that people didn't seem to love that much on impact and has gone on to be such a big, sustainable hit for her. Can't count that out. I think that that's, like, in some ways, like, that alone makes this a successful era. Like, in the same way that, like, with Eternal Sunshine, like, yes, and kind of fell off the charts pretty quickly. - But we can't be friends. - We can't be friends. Ended up being, like, one of her biggest hits ever. - So, I think it's, like, at this phase of her career, like Ariana Grande has now been releasing music for 13 years, basically, to insert first album. For her to be, like, spinning off hits as big as "Hate That I Made You Love Me", like, if she's getting one of those per cycle, like, and still selling 300,000 copies in the first week, which seems to be a bit of a high watermark, essentially, for her, like, a pretty much sustainable watermark for her. I mean, I feel like we have to call this era a success. But I don't think it's been, like, a, again, it's like Drake, it's like, I don't think it's been, like, a triumph for anything. It certainly hasn't silenced the debate. Like, I think a certain kind of album from Ariana Grande might have, like, usurped the narrative debate around her vibe at the moment. I do not think this album, like, silenced critics in the way that I think even, like, the content of the album hoped to, in a way. Like, the content of the album is about despising the narratives around her, and, like, not being into what her fans say about her, and all that kind of stuff. I don't feel like this album's cultural impact has, like, blunted the feeling that some seem to have around Ariana Grande, but it's also, obviously, quite successful. She's still a huge star. This tour is, we should talk about the tour. I mean, the tour is massively successful. She is continuing to prove that she is an a-list pop diva without question. She's amongst the most successful women working in pop still to this day. And I think that that remains true, obviously, through this era. I'm not sure that the word that I am looking for is impregnated. But I have certainly been fascinated throughout the course of this summer how her fans have been cocooned within the world and enjoying the tour and the era despite a really loud national conversation about Ariana's well-being. So the fact that she's able to do all of that certainly points to how strong of a relationship she has with so many people, you could feel it at the tour. It was churchly, you know, not even going to the tour but just like seeing videos of it. I can understand that this is an artist who people have a particularly emotional connection to. Definitely. You know, people feel like they have grown up with her certainly and she's been through so much public. Yes. I think it's connected to her as well, you know, and protective of her event totally. So yeah, lateral, what do you think? Lateral. I think we have to call this like she did what she had to do. I think the artistic thing is interesting like I someone who's been a fan of most of her work. Like this is the first time I've heard an album of hers and I'm kind of like what was the sort of artistic reason for this exactly I'm not totally sure but I think as an era and total including the tour, I'm really including the tour because I think you have to have to. This definitely feels like a proof of muscle that is worth noting almost like in spite of the music not being amongst her best or most beloved. It does remind me of Drake in a way where it's like again, public narrative kind of dicey but like proving that they're still like a lot of people that like are there for them. And like to me, a single as kind of like nonchalant as hate that I made you love me can be this big. Which again also kind of links to something like I knew and I knew you. It's like a single as kind of like not insinuative as those being this big speaks to cultural power. Yeah, I'm glad that you did bring up the tour as well because I can imagine if the tour was a little bit later the way that this Charlie tour is a little bit later and we weren't seeing all of the videos on social media and if she didn't have a space to sort of directly commune with her fans and reset the message and have the news stories quoting her as she's speaking to her fans directly as happens several times throughout the course of the summer during some of the height of this. I think that we would have felt differently or the tenor being even more stark here. But like so many things with Ariana like she keeps positing this as like this is my last time. Do it like there's a lot of I think there's a big fear within her fan base that like she might disappear forever. Like we're treat from the spotlight, etc. I mean, one thing that happened in the midst of this is her saying that she's taking a step back from the spotlight once this is over when this tour got released, you know, she was very clear like this is a mini tour. This is a real tour. This is going to be the last time you're going to see me for a while on stage in this way. She I think was part of the marketing around this. So there is also this energy of like she kind of keeps putting forth this idea that she might not be around forever as a pop star. It's a thing that she keeps kind of like threatening, which again also connects her to Charlie in a weird way as someone who's also trying to pivot into other stuff. You know, it's interesting all the connective tissue. So I think that's also been part of this. What you are describing is her lying. I agree. She has never seemed to follow through on that. I agree. But I think it does work on the fans. They're not willing to take the risk of not going to this tour. Yeah. I don't necessarily think that she was lying about that. No, she keeps saying she's done with pop music and then she keeps releasing pop albums. Like she could have easily done this tour and it would have been super successful and she could not have ever released this album. It's called the Eternal Sunshine Tour. It's a technically peg to the album she released two years ago. When her team released that statement in the summer where they said that after the tour she was retreating from public life, I was like, well, meet the fuckers is out. And they said she's doing press for that. Well, they had to come out and say that she was doing press about three weeks later because she's contractually obligated to do press for this movie. There was like basically no chance in the world that the studio who booked Ariana Grande wasn't going to come through on the legal obligation that she had. That the biggest star of the movie probably wouldn't do press, yo. Come on. That was just like a lie through the teeth from the team. So step lateral, but like on a high lateral. Yeah. All right. Well, this was really fun. Yeah. A lot of good combos today. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. Yeah. Cast I stepped down. Yeah. I cast I said, but anyway, let us know. Also, do you agree with us? Are we missing anything chime in on Patreon and Instagram in the discord? Let us know what you think. Are these artists stepping up or stepping down? And we will see you next week. Bye, Russ. Bye, Lily.