Are Swifties in a Cult?

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to another episode of BASEDU's Network. My name is Sophie, aka Genovarca, and I'm here with The Fabulous Pokemon. Say hi. - Hi. - How are you doing today? - I am doing swell. How are you doing? - I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I'm kind of excited for this episode because I just have a lot of pent up anger and feelings and I think this is something I need to do to feel better. - Do you feel tortured? - Yeah, I almost feel like I'm a tortured poet and I'm in a department. - Yeah, meet me too. - Yeah. - Me too, Sophie, me too. (laughing) - So I was thinking, I've been thinking recently because I've been seeing a lot of people online talk about how they're kind of starting to feel differently about Taylor Swift, or they're commenting on how there's this trend of anti-tailor sentiment growing and bubbling and building. And I've definitely noticed it too. I think it really came to head after the Grammys where she talked about like, this is my blah, blah, blah, Grammys, 'cause she's had a million Grammys. And drags wanna Delray up there to accept her win even though Lana was also nominated in Lost, which is kind of embarrassing for Lana. She didn't acknowledge Celine Dion on stage, which a lot of people were upset about. So that was in the media cycle. And I saw stuff about it online. People are kind of mad and then coming up to like the, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I want to comment on the Grammy Awards real quick. And then what's up, just real quick, additional note that's worth important. She won album of the year for her album Midnight's. And there is no universe in the world where that is the best album of any year ever. - Yeah, it was not, it was really not deserved. And what was kind of interesting is when she, the video of her acceptance speech, it pans to the crowd and they show various artists reacting to her win and they all look so like mad. Not mad, but just like tired and fatigued. And I think that represents how, you know, that reflects how we're all feeling about Taylor. - Yeah. - If we're not, if you're not like a hardcore Swiftie, of course. Like we're all a little bit tired, we're fatigued, we get it, Taylor Swift is awesome, we get it over saturation, over saturation, yes, over saturation. And then some ways you could, you could say, well, that's not really her fault. The media has turned her into this figure and she's, it's not necessarily her fault that, that, you know, she's everywhere. But I think a lot of it is her responsibility because obviously she's re-releasing all these albums and announcing tours and announcing new albums at like such a condensed and highly saturated rate that I know it's deliberate for the most part. Anyway, no, we're all just kind of tired of hearing about Taylor Swift, Travis Kelsey, tortured poet's department. I think most of us are tired. - Yeah, it's-- - And it got me thinking. - Okay, yeah, yeah. Go ahead, go ahead. - Sorry, go ahead, sorry. - I was going to say like the way you're saying that, just thinking about it, it's like almost like a perfectly built clock or machine that she was, that there's the Grammys and then the album announcement of the new album and then the Super Bowl. And I'm not saying, you know, she intentionally dates-- - Oh, you're right. - You know what I mean? I'm not saying she intentionally dates Travis Kelsey to be in the Super Bowl or anything like that. It's just, everything just feels like so perfect that it's a little bit, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's, it can't-- - I just know her PR team is like, it's not a coincidence, it's not a coincidence this is all happening like this. - I feel like her PR team has her life calculated to the second and I do really agree with you that I think her life is like a clock or what she's been doing is so, it feels so perfect and natural, well, not natural because it seems highly calculated, but it kind of flows in a natural progression, you know, she wins the album of the year and then announces her new album and then it's just Super Bowl, there's sort of like this natural connection between these events. And yeah, but anyway, it got me thinking that people are starting to wake up about Taylor Swift and not necessarily her, but the fandom and how exhausting it is to be a Swiftie, you know, being a Swiftie involves defending Taylor Swift constantly from criticism, making edits, buying thousands of dollars worth of tickets to her era's tour. There are so many things that Swifties do that I would imagine are kind of exhausting and emotionally overwhelming and I think people are starting to kind of wake up from watching football games. Yeah, watching the football game just to see Taylor Swift like, no, it's true, or Maddie Healy, like, they're in the chest, I see, yeah, no, they're in the trenches, like, doing a lot of labor and providing a lot of economic growth to Taylor Swift as a brand, you know what I mean? So, I think people are starting to get a little disillusioned with Taylor Swift, they're starting to be tired of all this work they're putting into, and it got me thinking like, are Swifties an occult? Um, yeah, we shall answer, so I was really thinking are Swifties an occult and I was doing some research and I found this article called What Makes a Cult from the Guardian, it's written by Rick Ross and it references psychiatrist Robert J. Lichten, he taught at Harvard Medical School and he wrote a paper in the early 1980s about cult formation, and he sort of, I'll end three characteristics that are shared by destructive cults. So with this in mind, we're going to kind of analyze the Swifties and we're going to, we're going to come to our own conclusions about it. I like who said destructive cults, because, yeah, because Sophie and I are a fan of loving, loving, hot restaurant chain, which is kind of a awesome, good cult, so we should do an episode about that. Everyone just Google loving, hot restaurant cult, and you'll see what we're talking about. But yes, Swifties are Swifties a destructive cult. That's a good question. And Sophie, you know it's funny and we're going to get into it. Before you sent me this article in cults, I would have said no, I don't think Swifties are a cult. But after reading this article, you sent me, now I'm thinking, I'm leaning towards yes. So let I don't want to get to, I don't want to go too ahead, let's do, let's go one by one. All right. Well, the first characteristic is there is a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship. As the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power. That is a living leader who has no meaningful accountability and becomes the single most defining element of the group and its source of power and authority. So that's kind of like honestly a convoluted statement, but essentially, what he's saying is that first of all, there's this charismatic person that people worship. I think that there is no debate that people straight up worship Taylor Swift. There's videos at the Aera's tour movie theater of like Swifties dancing in circles like it's mid-summer. That's not actual evidence, but like that aside, she has dominated the media this year. She is inescapable and people devote their lives to standing her to buying her albums, her merch to covering their walls and posters of Taylor Swift to running stand accounts and defending her. There are people who are straight up worshiping her. Would you agree with this? I think this is the easiest, easiest point of view. Yes. This is the easiest one to. Yes, absolutely. Yes. There's an interesting part of this element where he says they start to become an object of worship because the general principles that sustain to the group lose power. I thought about okay, how might that relate to Taylor Swift? Oh, I know how I have an idea. Okay. What do you think? I was going to say, I would say the original thing that brought Taylor Swift fans together was her music. Yes. But at this point, her music literally doesn't matter because she's releasing mediocre music like midnight and lover and re-releasing old music and like the actual output of her music hasn't been exciting in like five, six years. but the excitement around her is like super, super high because of its more focused on her as a person than the actual music itself. - That is exactly what I wrote down in my notes. So I'm glad we're in agreement here. That is 100% correct in my brain. And I think like to back to the part, the point that you made about really releasing albums, I feel like she does it so frequently that the novelty and like originality of her music is losing its power, you know? And I think people also kind of worship these albums as if they're like gospel. Like they love that. No, it's true, like they love the album red so much that when the Taylor's version came out, they're not really like, I don't think they're worshipping the album red, the Taylor's version as much as they're just worshipping the fact that Taylor Swift has released a new album. Like they're excited that Taylor Swift is contributing anything, you know? - It's like, if Jesus came down from heaven was like, so you guys were like 99% correct on the gospel, but I have like a few tweaks I'm gonna make to like the wording. You know, like Christians would be going crazy with excitement. And that's how I feel like. - And it's not like anything's any different. - It's just that she, it's just the fact that Taylor Swift did it, I don't know. And it's also called Taylor's version, which to me it feels kind of culty. Like it's transcended like a typical re-release of an album. - She just become its own weird thing. - Sprinkle some magical Taylor juice onto it. It's a magical tale. Like she usually like, she used like a magic Taylor Swift wand that said this is like the holy water of the pope on top of it and it is approved by the Christ to listen to. - Yeah. So anyway, I just, I feel like the albums don't, the albums are important to Swifties because it's a relic of like that proves Taylor is really an incredible artist, you know? Like it speaks to her talent in their brain. But now it's like, it's more about the like, honestly the economic output, the fact that like Taylor's generating sales to me, I don't know, then like the actual music itself. - And I think Swifties will actually straight up acknowledge that. Like they'll say, make sure you listen to the Taylor Swift, the Taylor's version because that's gonna generate her more money from streams. Like they know that. Like they, it's weird, like if, you know, if Radiohead or a band that I like was like, we're gonna re-release the bends or one of our early albums, we're gonna re-record it and re-release it. I would not be excited at all. And if they came out and said, and we're also doing this because it's gonna give us like more money because we're, it like bypasses some contractual contract stuff. I'd be like, what the hell? I wouldn't care at all. I'd be like, that's weird, I don't want that. But for Taylor Swift fans, it's like, the most exciting thing ever. Yeah. I don't get it. Yeah. I completely agree. And also something to this other part of this, this element of a cult. He says that this living leader, obviously Taylor Swift, is still alive. She has no meaningful accountability. And I thought that was interesting too because, you and I both know that Taylor Swift can get away with a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah. Like re-releasing your albums. Yeah, but also like, you could talk about her private jet emissions. And also, she's suing the guy on online who's been like tracking her jet. He's a college student. He's a junior from Florida named Jack Sweeney. And he's dealing with this lawsuit. Even though like the flight information is on public record and anyone could access it, he's just like putting it out there and away from where people to see it. He's not doing anything illegal. I will say it's kind of weird 'cause he would do it in real time. I feel like doing it in real time is a little weird, stalkery, but like I think he made an update to make it so that it's like 24 hours after so that people can't like stalk her location. But the thing is like, you know, she's, I feel like she's taking advantage of it. She's fucking up the life of a college student from Florida. You know? Like, yeah. She does not need to sue this kid. The only reason she's doing that is so that she can protect her image and, you know. - Yeah, I think this is you making money and yeah. - This is a fair, this is a fair arrangement, Taylor. Like if you're gonna use a private jet all over the place, all everywhere you go, the least you can do in return is just, let us know, let us know 24 hours after the fact. Like with this thing that's like already public information. I don't know, yeah, I agree. I feel really bad for the college student because obviously if you're a college student getting sued by Taylor Swift, you know, what do you even do in that situation? - And I'm sure Swifties are going to go attack this guy, you know? And I think the critique about it being like in real time is valid and kind of creepy, but you know, this kid's probably dealing with a lot worse right now. Another thing too is like, you could argue, she's not doing her duty as someone who has such an influence over the public when it comes to like speaking up about social issues. And you know, that's, I feel like that's a matter of opinion whether or not like she has to do that. But you know, she does like kind of present herself in more recent years as an activist, right? Like someone who's engaged in politics. But of course she hasn't said anything about Gaza. Again, there is an argument about whether or not like musicians should be involved in politics and stuff like that, but there's no question that she has a huge influence on the public. And I do think like her saying something about it like could have a demonstrable impact, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I think if, look, it's easy for me to say this as someone who's not in her shoes. But I feel like if I had the amount of power that Taylor Swift had, I would not be able to sleep at night without thinking every night about how can I use all this power I have as one of the most powerful people in the world to make the, like make the world a better place. And you know, cause if you're someone with that much power and there's so much suffering in the world, like don't you want to use that power? And look, it's not just Taylor Swift. It's basically every billionaire in there on the planet. I think it's like, you know, is guilty of also doing shocking that little. That's true. That's true. But also like Taylor is this like, she's a cultural, she has a lot of cultural clout, you know what I mean? She has, I think she has more power than any other billion, like or most other billionaires. Yeah. Yeah. She has influenced so many trends. She has convinced people to spend thousands on tickets and albums and merch. Yeah, she does. And she does do some charity here and there. But I hate to say it, but a lot of the charity she does seems a little bit self-serving. Like, for example, and look, I know I don't want to be, I'm not trying to like go crazy here, but like, I saw this headline about how she gave like the bus drivers of her tour, like, you know, $100,000 or a million, however much it was, like she gave like, and this is something that, you know, that's really nice and cool, but, you know, in the grand scheme of things, that's not really moving, it's really awesome for those employees, but it's not really moving the world in a better place, one way or the other, but it is something that is like an easy like, gotcha headline that makes Taylor Swift look like a good person. Exactly, you're right, I think every action, public action she does is highly calculated, and I know that is the reality of many celebrities and artists, especially of her caliber, but it comes across as disingenuous, and it is really frustrating that she chooses not to use her influence in more meaningful ways, simply because she's afraid of losing money, honestly, that's what she's afraid of, I think. Yep, and just to be super clear here, this is just the fact check, this is from a CBS news article she gave each trucker on her era's tour, a check of $100,000. So, you know, all things considered, that's, I mean, that's a big amount of money for any trucker, but not a ton of money for Taylor Swift. That's like a penny for Taylor. Yeah, a lot for Taylor Swift. And also, you know, like, honestly, I hate to say it, giving $100,000 to like, malaria treatment or something would go a hell of a lot further, but it wouldn't make headlines the same way giving it to a trucker would, you know what I mean? Like, the calculation, the calculation isn't, the calculation isn't how do I use my money to make the world as best of a place as possible. The calculation is how do I use my money to give the appearance that I'm like a generous person, you know? Totally agree. And yeah, she's just able to get away with it because she's Taylor Swift. and then the final thing here is like, she becomes the most defining element of the group and its source of power and authority, and I feel like with that people basically swifty, I feel like swifties are very confident and when I say swifty by the way I mean like hardcore mean swifties, I'm not just talking about every any old like casual swifty that's like chill. I'm just saying like, I think a lot of swifties derive power from her success and her clout, you know, because you're a swifty you're kind of associating yourself with Taylor and you can have pride in the fact that, you know, she's the most celebrated person alive right now. You know what I mean? So like in stand wars for example, people will criticize Taylor swifter than some weird swifties will reply like, well your faith flopped and Taylor's done this and made this much money blah, blah, blah, blah. It becomes like they're like she's they're able to like through association gain social clout. Very interesting that, you know, I think for a lot of people who are deeply in love with a specific artist, which is obviously very common, I think a lot of the time if that musician gets like super popular for some people that might not be a great feeling like, oh damn, like that you you belong to me and now you belong to everybody. But I guess you know sometimes in there's like these stand wars, it goes the other way where you want them to be as successful as possible. So I don't know. Yeah. I think it's interesting. I think you're right though. I think a part of it is like this this like tribal mentality where your your leader is like winning for your tribe, you know, I don't know. Yeah, exactly. And you kind of become untouchable because like if anyone criticizes you or Taylor Swift, you can just protect yourself by citing all of Taylor's accomplishments, you know. Anyway, so on this first bad way to live a life, that's all I want to say. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, on this like first element of a cult, I think she I think Swiftie's definitely applied to this this one. Would you agree that on this count? Are they charged on this count? Are they guilty on this count? It's an easy yes, they're guilty. All right, let's move on. Society is guilty. And by the way, it's best it's best sort of three. So if she if they're if the Swifties are guilty on all three counts or two, two of the three counts, then then then it's not good. Just kidding. Anyway, the second one, there is a process of indoctrination or education that is in use that can be seen as coercive persuasion or thought reform, commonly called brainwashing. The culmination of this process can be seen by members of the group, often doing things that are not in their best interest, but consistently in the best interest of the group and its leader. So what do you think of this? Well, I have to say, I'm not sure about this one. Is there a brainwashing process for Taylor Swift fans to become Swifties? I do know that Taylor Swift puts little clues and hints in her music and everything she does. And I know that lots of her fans obsess over every lyric and everything she does, but I'm not exactly sure if it meets the threshold of brainwashing. What do you think? Yeah, I agree with you there. I feel like a more compelling argument for brainwashing might be some Taylor Swift fans' susceptibility to her robust PR strategy. Because. Oh, wait. Oh, I was dumbing to interrupt you, but I just realized, obviously there's a lot of brainwashing going on because the only way you could think that Midnight's is a masterpiece is if you're brainwashed. That's basically it. It's as simple as that. Well, yeah, but I don't know. I don't you agree that a lot of Taylor Swift fans are very vulnerable because they are young and mostly young, they're on the internet. I feel like they're in a vulnerable position and they're particularly influenced by Taylor Swift's PR. And what I mean by that is all these positive headlines about her in part are a product of the work of her PR team. And, you know, for example, if you truly believe that Taylor Swift collabed with ice spice just because she likes ice spice, you are feeling to like see the fact that that happened like right after the controversy with Maddie Healy and like his comments about her on the Adam Friedland show. Like if you genuinely believe that was a collab that just happened organically, you're mistaken. And I feel like Swifties basically just take whatever Taylor's PR like people feed to them without questioning it. Not all Swifties, but specifically the most like indoctrinated ones. What do you think? I agree and I think it goes even further. And what I mean is everything I think you're absolutely right that the brainwashing happens by the PR team and people kind of eating it up and falling for it. But one thing I'm like deeply curious about, deeply curious about and I don't have any evidence for this, but how in God's name did she win album of the year at the Grammys? And I very well aware that the Grammys always do an awful job with their awards. They always give mediocre albums rewards because obviously there's a bunch of behind the scenes politics that goes on and determined to do it at wins. PR and lobbying and everything. Yeah, so you know if you continuously tell the world through Rolling Stone magazine, through Grammys, through all these different outlets, you keep telling the world that Taylor Swift's music is actually amazing, then some people are going to start actually believing it. And then there's like 99% of us who like feel like we're being gaslit because her music is so unremarkable, but we keep being told it's like the best music of all time. But yes, there's obviously some like large scale like institutional brainwashing going on. And I wish I could see more behind the scenes of how on earth this is actually happening. Well, as someone who studied public relations and marketing, there are hours and hours of hours and money and money and money poured into this. They are probably working around the clock to do this, her PR team. And assuming she has some of the best people in the world on this case, you know. But yeah, I actually read this piece the other day that said like let me find it. Sorry, I didn't intend to bring this up. But maybe I won't say the exact number, but it was a very, he basically said he's a scholar of journalism. He said that a very high percentage of news stories are come out as a product of PR. So PR influences most news stories, which doesn't surprise me because that's what the goal of PR is to do. But it is really disappointing shocking how news is influenced by like corporate interests. And like the corporate interest here being like Taylor Swift's making money and profit. That is so upsetting and depressing. And this is I guess it's not it's not too shocking. I don't think it's too shocking. But it's it's certainly just like it's like this. I always feel like the music and art and all these things like are like the foundation of like our human soul. You know, and I feel like having your music opinions influenced and shaped by and determined by like a business like a corporate team in you know shaping and paying for stories. Like that is like the most depressing like that is like you have no soul. That's what it means. It means you have no soul. Yeah. You have been you have been. I love how you yeah. I love how you articulated that. I completely agree. I also feel like not only are like Taylor Swift's PR people, gaslighting and brainwashing everyone. I also think that they not literally recruit, but they kind of enlist through their own brainwashing other Taylor fans, like Taylor fans. The PR people, brainwash the Taylor fans, and then the Taylor fans, brainwash the non-tailor fans by gaslighting everyone into believing that her re-releases are an act of like feminist liberation rather than like a, you know, highly manipulative consumerist attempt to suck as much money out of her fans and like the public as she possibly can. So I feel like that's another way brainwashing is going on. There's been many, many, many, many different, different ways. I remember, what was this like 10 years ago? There was like this big story about her sparring with Spotify over at, oh, yeah, I remember that. And by the way, you couldn't listen to her music on there for a while, right? Yeah, yeah. And just an FYI, so everyone knows all this, all the sparring between her and Spotify, when she was, you know, fighting against Spotify, happened over the music that like is like pre-tailor's version music. Like this was, so just, I just want to like throw that in, so everyone understands like she's still making money off her non-tailor version music and is still like, hasn't like a, you know, a fighting spirit to make money off that, I mean that music too. But the point is is she framed it as like we need to fight as musicians to stand up for ourselves against Spotify, to make sure Spotify is paying their musicians fairly, you know? And like, you know, that all, that's all sounds great and awesome as someone who makes a little bit of royalties off Spotify. But the thing that was so frustrating about it was like she was lauded for this as like, you know, doing something heroic, but it's actually very, very like very clearly, very directly just like a self-interested move. Like that's her, that's her source of income. She's, she's negotiating for her to make more money off of her music from streams. And if smaller artists, you know, make, also end up making more money from this negotiation between her and Spotify, that's great. But obviously she's not standing up against Spotify for the small artist. She's standing up for herself and using the small artists kind of language to kind of give her a little bit more headlines and make her sound like she's doing something for justice rather than the boring cut and dry truth, which she was doing something so she could make more money. And we see this continue now with the release of her Taylor's version albums. Yeah. As we are all well aware, the reason she has Taylor's albums, Taylor's version albums, oh god it sounds so dumb, I'm sorry, Taylor's version albums is because of Scooter Braun and her attempt to like, or so she says, take back her music and like own it herself and to do that she's re-recording her work. And you know, she's sort of framed this. Her PR people have framed this as like a feminist small artist, you know, take back of her work, you know what I mean? Like, like, screw this man who's stealing her art and her intellectual property. She's gonna re-record her music and makes so much more money and, you know, own him, you know. But, she's just to be clear, we do not like Scooter Braun. No, this is not a defense of Scooter Braun. Like, obviously. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's just, it's just very convenient for her to frame this as a feminist issue or as an issue for like artists everywhere. When the reality is that now she's able to take her extremely popular body of work, reproduce it, and make so much more money. Yeah, it's just, it's very convenient that all these social activist decisions she makes just so happen to align with decisions that make her a ton of money. That's all we're saying. So, that's all we're saying. Yep, that's all we're saying. Again, and also I want to be like clear as well. Like, I think there's a difference between like enjoying Taylor Swift's music and like being a Swiftie who's indoctrinated into this cult and defends her for doing things that are so very clearly morally questionable. I just want to make that clear. Like, they're, I just don't, I don't, I know like a lot of Swifties are critical of like her as a person or her as a brand rather. She's not really a person. She's like a brand. So, yeah, I just wanted to say that. There's a second part of this characteristic of a cult. He says that the culmination of this process can be seen when members do things that are not in their own best interest, but for the best interest of the group and its leader and the the most prominent example I can think of here is the fact that fans are buying tickets to the era's tour and spending an insane amounts of money just to see her. Even though that is not in their best interest, there's this article I read about a Swiftie who took out $3,000 from her savings account to pay for tickets and then she also had her mom get pay $1,000 to get a flight to go to St. Louis and then they drove to Chicago to see the concert blah blah blah and then paid for a hotel room. Like basically spending, I don't know, $6,000, $7,000 on the whole ordeal, just for two tickets and the trip to go there. So, she took, this Swiftie took $3,000 out of her savings account. I don't think that's in her best interest and I don't want to judge this girl or this woman, but I don't think that's in anyone's best interest. Well, I might slightly disagree with you there, Sophie, because I do think that sometimes in life, you just got to do something really stupid like that and that's a good point, but yeah, that's a great point, but do you think like taking $3,000 out of your savings is a good idea? No. Just a C Taylor Swift. Remember, we're talking about Taylor Swift. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, so I have another way smaller scale example that I think kind of works of Swiftie's doing stuff that's not in their self interest because it serves the cult leader. And I have, because I have literally, and this is a really small example, but I've literally seen people say, oh, I prefer Taylor Swift's original version of red, but I'm actually going to listen to Taylor's version only because I know that's what Taylor Swift wants. And that's like a really small, that's a really small, like you're not sacrificing that much. They're both very similar, but like the fact that people are saying, I'm going to like have a less enjoyable experience listening to this music, you know, because it's like what Taylor Swift said we should do. It's like a little, it's a little weird. That's just not, that's not a, it's not a very, it's a bizarre, I think it's kind of a bizarre way to consume, like music. Yeah, I agree. And again, this is all in the service of making Taylor Swift as much money as possible. And I really don't think that there's any reason that like anyone should be taking thousands of dollars out of their savings to see Taylor Swift for a couple hours in a stadium, you know. And we all know how much money Taylor Swift has made from her arrestor, you know. It just, it feels greedy. It feels like she is taking advantage of like young people who are really into her music. Yeah, it definitely, it definitely is a little weird because that's that's to the target audiences as kids, you know. Yeah, young people, I would say like Zelenials, Gen Z Millennials. I would, I would to meet her like midnight gen alpha, probably gen alpha two. I would say her music sounds like whatever, it sounds like it's made for whatever comes after gen alpha. Like, it sounds like people who are negative four years, negative four years. That's what I hear when I listen to midnight. Damn. We all know you hate midnight's. Okay, all right, all right. No, no, it's, I don't like midnight's either. But yeah, I don't know, I do think like Taylor Swift, and again, there's also like the social element of the arrestor. Like going to the arrestor is kind of like a status symbol for a person. It's something that you can brag about on the internet and get internet points for, or even brag about in real life. And to do so, so it's not it's not just a C Taylor Swift, but it's also to signal to the other members of the cult that you are truly committed to the cause. Yeah, it definitely. Yeah, that's I think you I can say better, I can say better. So on this on the second charge, do you think I know you were kind of conflicted here, but do you think that there is some brain thought reforms and brainwashing going on and do you think that the members of the group are doing things that are outside of their best interests in order to serve the cult leader and the cult itself? I'm leaning towards yes, but I think maybe we could give this like half a point. So we're like like one point five and we need to hit two points for it to be a definitive yes, it's a cult. Okay, so we're on the fence about it. So let's let's let's let's let's create some suspense because there's one left. And if she if she if the Swifties get charged on this one, then they're cult. According to the base do's don't work. Yes. All right, so this one is an interesting one to prove and I'm curious what you think. Economic is as sexual. Let's disregard that. There's no there's don't don't let's ignore that. So basically economic and other forms of exploitation by group members of the group members by the leader and the ruling like coterie like the leading like basically like in Swiftie talk like the top Swiftie stan accounts and like influencers Swiftie influencers. Could you could you read that point three again? Yes, economic and other exploitation by group members of group members by the leader. Okay, so so group members being exploited by the leader in some way, shape, especially especially economically. All right, so I'm leaning from the conversation towards yes, but I think for us to to for sure say yes on this we need to define exploitation and concretely show examples of this exploitation. Okay, well I have read a lot of stories going back to this story about this person who took three thousand dollars and other savings. I've heard a lot of stories of people using money that they should not use in order to go to the Aristotle. And that money is going into the pocket of Taylor Swift, someone who does not need that much money. Yes, but she's exploiting her fans who are eager to see her in order to make money. And you I guess you could be like, okay, isn't that any artist, but I think and there might be other factors influencing this, but I feel like her tickets, like the price of her tickets is uniquely high. Yes, but and I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm playing devil's advocate on behalf of Taylor Swift. It couldn't just be they're very expensive because everybody wants to buy them. And you know what I mean like great point, great point. Like I mean they're all being sold out anyways. It's true. That's a good point, though, because okay, so I guess the thing is it's like I want to bring it back to what you're saying in point two about there's this element of social status that comes along with attending these events, you know, because I feel like that adds an exploitative layer where you're not just paying, you're not just paying $3,000 to go see Taylor Swift because you want to see Taylor Swift. You know, I think going because you kind of have to, you know what I mean? Like there's like a there's like this social pressure that you have to in order to be seen as like a valid person in this thing. A valid Swiftie. Yeah, like that to me has like a bit of a coercive element to it. Yeah, like you basically have to pay your way into like real Swiftie hood, like or at least like popular Swiftie hood because I feel like the most like the biggest voices in the fandom are people who can afford to like either go to the Ares tour multiple times or purchase like vinyl, like merch, you know what I mean? Like the most devoted Swifties or not the most devoted Swifties but the most socially influential Swifties are the ones who can afford to do so. Does that make sense? It does make sense. It does make sense. And I also think like to to me the economic exploitation, you know, like you said, also goes back to streams, you know what I mean? And forcing people to, you know, are highly encouraging people to listen to her new like re-released version so that she can make more money. I don't know if that's exploitation but I think there is an element of greed and it's greed that she satiates by like enlisting her fans to give her money basically. I think that forcing her fans to defend and listen to reputation is that something is like proof of exploitation. Well, I actually wrote down my notes emotional distress because I feel like Taylor Swift puts fans through emotional distressed constantly by creating a culture in which Swifties are encouraged to defend Taylor Swift to no end. They spend a lot of an emotional labor, doxing people just kidding, but they send a lot of emotional labor like defending actions that like I think are very clearly bad. And I don't know, I feel like that's exhausting to do. And I don't think people talk enough about the labor and free PR and advertising that fans do for artists, but in particular Taylor Swift. You could even say that is economic exploitation because they're basically doing unpaid promotion for you. And I mean that's kind of like a more abstract example is I'm kind of joke. I'm being tongue-in-cheek here, but I do think like the Swiftie cult, maybe not Taylor Swift herself, but the Swifties in this cult kind of pressure each other to defend Taylor Swift on every action. And if you deviate from the established narrative that Swifties have chosen to uphold, you are then subject to criticism and hate from other Swifties. Like if I'm a Swiftie, I'm like actually I think the jet thing is bad. You'll have a bunch of Swifties in your DM saying like you're kill yourself you're a horrible person. And I do think that that is emotional exploitation. Yeah I think so and I think I think that's an important well you know I so I guess I'm going to say two things. One, I think a lot of people genuinely feel like they I think Taylor's I actually genuinely believe that Taylor Swift's fan base is so harsh and so critical that a lot of people genuinely choose not to voice criticism of her music or her because of that. Like I think it's like a very very loud fan base and even if the majority of people don't love her music like a lot of people are just choosing to stay silent because of her her vicious fan base. And yeah and I'm assuming a lot of those I think a lot of people within the fan base feel the same way probably yeah probably it's like I'm like what I'm trying to say is like they're probably Swifties themselves who are uncomfortable with things that Taylor Swift does but stay either voice their opinions and get shamed or they stay silent to avoid like insane Swifties attacking them. So they stick to the status quo. I feel like Taylor Swift the more we talk about the more I feel like not Taylor Swift as an individual but the phenomenon of Taylor Swift reminds me of the phenomenon of Donald Trump because oh to tell they both have these fan bases that are just so in love with this person and I think a lot of their fan base is kind of mean. And treats this individual like they're a god and then you look at this god in question and you're kind of taken aback by how mid they are. Yeah, yeah, and it makes me question. I mean, I feel like that just I feel like that goes back though to like the brainwashing thing. Yes, it does. It makes me question reality. If I'm being gaslit, that's what it is. I'm being gaslit. Like this isn't like Donald Trump is a normal. And Taylor Swift isn't like Taylor Swift success isn't normal. Like this is not like I'm not the crazy one. All of you are the all of all the Trump supporters are crazy. All the Taylor Swift fans are. You're making us feel crazy when I refuse to to swallow this as normal. I agree. I agree. So if you remember, it won't be watched Beauty and the Beast. Yes. That soundtrack is so beautiful. Beauty and the Beast? Stir it fried and prejudice. Both of them. Both Beauty and the Beast. Look, I didn't say fried and prejudice, but that too. I feel like the worst song on Beauty and the Beast. Is better than the best song by Taylor Swift. I feel like Taylor Swift. Yeah, true. Her music to me sounds like a Disney soundtrack. And it sounds like a Disney soundtrack that wouldn't be as good as the Beauty and the Beast soundtrack. I personally agree with that. I don't know if everyone will agree, but I definitely agree. So I think all things considered. I say yes. It is a cult. Because after discussing. All right. So she's charged on this count. She's charged on this third count. And I take, I said this. Well, I guess I'm not. And by the way, we're referring to the Swifties as a cult. Not Taylor Swift, but I guess it's the cult of Taylor Swift. She does not get a slide. She does not get a pass through this. If you've cultivated it. No, I'm just trying to clarify that the Swiftie, the cult of the Swifties are charged. And Swiftie and Taylor Swift too. Okay. You don't accidentally create a cult. I'm just saying. So Taylor Swift, you got to fix this. You're not going to fix it. And also this is, I'm not really criticizing the Swifties here because they're, as we know, victims. Members of cult, as we know, members of cults are victims, you know. That is true. That is fair. Members, so I'm sitting, like, by charging, I mean, like, they fit the criteria as a cult. Like, I think it's safe to say that the Swiftie fandom is a cult. But that also means that Swifties are victims. And that kind of, like, leads me to the, like, conclusion of this episode. Which is that there is help available. Or rather, there are, there are Swifties right now who are recovering. From what they were dealing with, the emotional labor of being a diehard Swiftie, you know. There are people, there are, there are people who are recovering. And I want to talk about this subreddit that I found called Swiftly Neutral. And honestly, not even as a, I'm not a Swiftie, but going on there was very therapeutic, honestly, because I feel like I was finally seeing some reason, some, like, sense when it came to Taylor Swift. It was a breath of fresh air to see people talking very neutrally about her. They're not, they're not, like, hating on her and saying she's the worst person ever. Although there are some posts in there that kind of border on that. But rather, people are just being, like, honest how they feel about her. And there's no judgment. And if you are tired of getting attacked for being even remotely critical of Taylor Swift, I definitely recommend checking out this subreddit. It's called Swiftly Neutral. So, I feel like the best way to summarize it too is, is someone, a Redditor commented that this subreddit is like a parasocial relationship recovery meeting, which I also found interesting. That's a nice, that's a nice place to end. Yeah, I guess, you know, I just, well, yeah, I mean, I was just going to, we can keep going. I was just going to say, if you're, if you're not sure, if you're not sure if you fall into this category of brainwashed, listen to, I don't know, maybe Kate Bush Hounds of Love or Madonna, Ray of Light. You know, just some of those. If you want something, if you want something more recent, listen to Caroline Pullichek's album. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so just listen to one of those and then immediately after listen to Midnight's. And if you really believe with the straight face, you just listen to like two equally good works of art. Yeah, then you need to, you need to, you're in really deep. And you need to, you need to pull yourself out of it a bit. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of Taylor Swift fans that kind of can acknowledge that like a lot of her music is not great, but they still like her because of her hits and they still like her because they find her lyrics relatable once in a while. And if that's you, that's great. But if you, that's totally fine, you can like what I'm sorry, but like you can be like Taylor Swift's music. I don't, but you can do it. But I, I feel like there's a distinction that needs to be made between like cash, like just Taylor Swift fans and Swifties. Yes, yes. Um, I want to read just briefly some testimonies of some X Swifties and kind of how they're dealing with this. Is that okay? Take it away. All right. So one user made a post two weeks ago saying, been a fan since 2007, kind of stuck with her now. Just learned to subreddit exists and I'm very glad because I need a neutral medium to express my thoughts, ha ha. The whole of it is that I've, is that I've been a fan since hearing teardrops on my guitar in 2007. I went to the fear list, speak now and read tours in middle high school and I was a huge fan. I started listening to other artists by the time I got to college and lost a lot of interest, but still held her in the same regard. She's a talented songwriter and she works her ass off to build her brand. And that's my problem now. She no longer feels like an artist. She feels like a brand. Her work hasn't evolved at all since 1989. Edit folklore folklore is the one exception. I think she's talking about folklore and evermore. Anyway, she keeps rehashing her whole career and every spat beef and scandal from it and she hasn't really taken any risks since folklore or evermore. And calling those risks is a bit of a stretch too. I also think there's a lot to be said about how she cranks albums out every, cranks albums out year after year, re-records or new material. And they increasingly feel sloppier and less cohesive. This is obviously a choice that's influenced by the streaming model and is completely untenable for artists below her stature. It also generally speaks to her butterfly effect in society. Everything, everything she does has a ripple effect. Eating a chicken tender with a condiment at a sports event means the Empire State Building has to change its colors and the honor of you, give me a fucking break. And no matter what her fans say, she isn't some kind of feminist icon. She often chooses to speak on issues that only affect her personally and Swifties act like she's the only woman in the world to experience these things. I have more to say, but I think this is the gist of it. I think she needs to take a break from recording and get off the internet for a little while. And this is all coming from someone who sincerely respected her for what she's built over the last years and just feels bombed. And I feel like this is a really honest candid take from a next wifty. I really liked that post. I really, it really resonated with me. It's kind of sad. It's kind of sad because it's sad that people are indoctrinated into this cult. It's sad that Taylor Swift, who means so much to people, has really transformed into this machine of just churning, churning, churning music and content. And I completely agree. It would be so awesome. I think for all of us, if Taylor Swift could take a little pause, let us all catch our bites. And I also think like criticism of her would definitely wane. I agree. I agree. Another user commented it's over saturation, it's fatigue, and it may be the start of an unraveling. That could be it. Hey, and also, you know what, after this conversation, I know I gave the second of the three cult points, only half a point. But you know that I've sat with it. No, it's three for three. She is three for three. She is four for three. She is a hundred. This is a swifty. This is a hundred percent of cult. Yeah. And I liked the little comment in that Reddit post. Reddit, Reddit, Reddit, Redditers always come through about how like this whole phenomenon is linked to this new era of streaming. Yeah. That's, that's a great point. We're all on this treadmill or just treadmill of stream stream. stream streams and it's such a sad way to to to live and to engage with music. I'm really glad you said that. I completely agree. And that's why we need a contribution now. I've been saying this. Well that's actually the ethos of Conqueror Lucian Out like like beyond like all the comedy and like content that you put out. The like basically the crux of your punk publishing house existence is to combat this. We need to demand for a part of a democracy. We need to demand a better music. I agree. Okay so before we wrap up the episode I want to just read one more testimony of from the subreddit and then yeah. Let's hear it. All right this one is called a criticizing tailor is making me grow up. This may sound insane to some of y'all but reading the post in the sub and critically thinking about Taylor's controversial and petty behavior over the years is helping me become dot dot dot a better person. Question mark, hopefully question mark. The person of the year interview was the biggest wake up call for me. You know what they say about Taylor's making music for girls who can't can never let things go. I myself also frequently complained to friends and on my socials about my narcissistic parents and my traumatic childhood. Reading Taylor's interview was a real eye opener. I realized how pathetic and unattractive it is to go on and on about things that happened years ago. And I was frustrated at both Taylor and myself. Why can't you focus on the successes you've achieved in life? Why do you have to obsessively hate on a person who isn't in your life anymore and complain to everyone in your vicinity? Why don't you just start practicing gratitude? Actually since her time interview, I think I stopped entirely complaining on my socials, airing my laundry on Instagram stories, etc. altogether. Every time my brain gets triggered and I start thinking about the people who hurt me in the past, I say firmly to myself. Stop. You don't want to come off as bitter and a petty individual like a certain billionaire. I'm six years younger than Taylor and I certainly do not want to be acting like her when I'm 34. Some food for thought. The reason I chose to read this one is just because I think it's funny and it's like a little bit dramatic. But I don't know. Regardless if you agree with this, like because she's basically saying like you should it like talking about things that hurt you is pathetic and I think that's kind of unfair. But I'm more so interested in this because like I just think it's interesting how Swifties are processing this, you know, like X Swifties are processing this. Oh man, this is really getting my brain rolling right now. I just I just remember we didn't even get into the the Taylor Swift, you know, LGBT conspiracy. Oh my god, yeah, that was a whole like sub cult. Yeah, and there was the New York Times op-ed that came out and then the New York Times got criticized for daring to have an op-ed contemplating. There's just so much just so much like cultiness and criticism that we just didn't even get to this episode. But I think that was those are some great, great Reddit comments that really nailed it. I definitely yeah, I definitely recommend going in there not because like every post is necessarily correct but it's really interesting to see like how people especially like X Swifties or Swifties who are like kind of disillusioned with her are processing Taylor's like fame in this moment right now. And it's a very like therapeutic place to be because people are able to be speak candidly about her but also be like you know these aren't people just like saying fuck you Taylor Swift, I hate you, you're evil or hate Swifties. It's more like people are who are just kind of coming to terms with the fact that they you know devoted years of their life and so many emotions and money to this person and they're realizing that like they kind of gave up so much of their themselves in that process. And it's very like even for me who is not as swifty, it's very like relaxing and therapeutic to just see people speaking about it openly without getting hate you know. So check out Swiftly Neutral, it's really really interesting place to be and yeah if you are a swifty listening to this and you feel like this was a wake up call for you, I would definitely recommend I would definitely recommend going going on that subreddit but no before we like end the episode I just I just want to reiterate again like you can be a Taylor Swift fan and want to go to the Ares tour and you can love her music and that's totally fine. I think that the swiftees who are deep in the cult are the ones who are well they're not they're victims but they're also the people who are being cruel to people who have different opinions and I don't think that's okay so yeah. Yes. I agree. Well I feel like this is an interesting episode and I'm curious to hear what people think. I think we should um I think every episode of based news network needs to end with us recommending people go on Reddit. Oh my god I know. We're going on Reddit for more info. I love Reddit I won't lie. It's it's it's it's so great. There's some really bad parts of Reddit but there are some really great parts of Reddit and I'm a fan I think like I'm a fan of R/funny. R/funny is the best subreddit ever. But yeah check out Reddit based news network is a it proud and proud fan of Reddit so go on Reddit and have fun but yeah thank you guys so much for listening I'm I'm excited to hear like what your thoughts are um I hope like we can have like a civil conversation about it um because I don't mean any hate to Swifties um yeah I just I really hope that this made sense to people and obviously it was kind of tongue-in-cheek but I think there's like a lot of reality reality to it you know what I mean? Yes I agree. All right well thanks everyone for listening this has been based news network. Bye bye. Bye.