Are Multi-Ethnic Churches dead?

Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, what's going on? We are back with another episode of the Unsilent Church podcast. We got James in the building, V in the building. - What up? - Of course, I'm in the building. I'm always in the building, you know what I'm saying? - This guy. - But we got a special guest in the building. And I could introduce, but I feel like it's more like better, like Vermone introduced. - It's more. - It's more better. - It's more better. I said that. - It's more better. - It's better. (laughs) - It's better. (laughs) - More better blues. (laughs) - V, can you introduce our special guest? - Well, I guess I'm really a friend from all of us. Someone we go for a long while. Pastor Ephraim Smith. Pastor Smith is a pastor of Midtown Church, which is in Sacramento, California. You are Coley pastor there. And, I mean, you're a pastor, but you're speaker, leader, author, multiple books. I'm also sort of areas, you know. I mean, you're a guy I love to hear from when it comes to the multi-ethnic church, which we'll talk about shortly. But just leadership, community development, you've been involved in urban mission, church planning. And I'm saying here, your most recent book is Killing the Softly. What's that book about? That sounds interesting. - Oh, man, he ever talked about that. My actually church for everyone is the latest one, but-- - Yes, I thought so. - Killing the Softly is my favorite one. - Okay, that has church for everyone. I was like, I was like, I don't think that's his latest one. - If I was a singer with a favorite album, Killing the Softly, be my favorite. - So married to Dineshya, two kids, two daughters, right? - Yes. - So man, good to have you here with us, bro. - Honored to be here, honored to be here. - So, like I said before, one of the things we'd like to talk about is, some of the things, one of the things that we believe in and represents the church that I lead, that we're all members of is being a multi-emptive church. The significance of that, the importance of that, when we started Roosevelt Church, that was a desire. As much as we could, I look and we do to be a church that brings all sorts of different people together. But I thought for our conversation, almost approaches us, what's the state of the union when it comes to multi-emptive church in 2026? The reality is, it's hard in terms of what it means to be part of diverse community given. The polarization and division that's happening, we're all quite aware of around the world, but especially in our country, we're in the middle of Trump's second administration. And what I saw happen in the first administration and has continued only on since then is that churches, like ours, communities that are diverse, have experienced also to tensions and divisions as people are realizing what diversity really means, right? And so it really brings the question like, so what do we think about the multi-emptive church? And then, I don't know, this is a long setup, but particularly what does it mean for us as black leaders within the multi-emptive church? There's some challenges to that and some have suggested that it's just not worth it anymore. So I mean, I'll let you sort of take it from there and we can bounce around a little bit, but when you think of that sort of that question, what's the state of the multi-emptive church today? What do we think about it? How would you answer that? - Yeah, on one hand, I think the multi-ethnic multi-racial church is needed like never before. In a mission field that is deeply diverse but deeply divided to have congregations that still dare to, as best they can, reflect what eternity will look like is definitely needed. I think the question becomes the state of the multi-ethnic church is also based on what is the cultural ethos at the core of these congregations. When we planted sanctuary church in Minneapolis in 2003, we planted it in a community that was like 78% African-American and we said in the documents that found it, this will be an African-American led multi-ethnic multi-racial church intentionally planted in a predominantly African-American community. So the people that weren't African-American were driving into something that, you know, we were basically saying that we wanted to be multi-ethnic but hey, the founding pastors black and you're gonna come in here and you're driving into a black community where the church I pastor now is downtown in the center of Sacramento which is one of the most multi-ethnic multi-racial cities in America. And so you're not driving down into a black community. And so, but I still feel that the best gift I can give a multi-ethnic church is my unapologetic black Christian self. - Explain that. - That, why is that, like when some people say, like, you know, that's, you should back off from that for the sake of building a multi-ethnic church. - Yeah, I think if we back off of that, then whiteness centers the multi-ethnic church. - This is automatically. - Yeah, I just think in the United States of America, - Or the multi-ethnic church tends to center whiteness. That's like the default, yeah. - Yeah, especially because a lot of multi-ethnic church planting in the 1990s into the 2000s was done mainly in evangelical denominations, associations and movements. And so the training you get, the assessment centers you go through. I don't know what your experience was like for a moment, but I mean, I planted in the evangelical covenant church denomination and the curriculum and the resources in my training. I had to contextualize that. I had to take it and put laurels and hot sauce on it. (laughing) Put it in some grease. (laughing) Get it for it to work. - Deep fry a little bit, you know what I'm saying? - You know what I mean? You're so it's like, man, I got to take this spinach and make it taste like color grease. (laughing) So, so I think if there's, and it doesn't even have to be, I mean, I co-paster with a Korean American woman. And so she has to unashamedly, unapologetically be herself so that how God has created us can be a gift to the multi-ethnic church. And there's been times when I did feel like, oh, I can't be my full black self here. I have to pull back. I'll say this real quickly. I think when I was pastoring sanctuary as a staff collectively and individually, we did this assessment tool called the IDI, the Intercultural Development Inventory. And it shows where you are on a continuum of denial to acceptance when it comes to your intercultural competencies and skills. - Interesting. - So when the assessor was meeting with me individually, he said, okay, this, of course, he said, pastor, you're on the acceptance end of the continuum. You've got high cross-cultural competencies, but there is one thing here I need to talk to you about. He said, based on your assessment, it tells me you spend an inordinate amount of time making sure white people are okay. And that gave me a good, but it was true. Because at that particular time, if I preach something and let's say some black folks in the church didn't like it, I wouldn't know. They probably in the car on the way home going, I don't know what pastor Ephraim was talking about today. The man in the worship was good. I don't know what, I mean, let's pray for him. Or while I'm preaching, they're like, help him law. (laughing) But, some white people, if they didn't like what I preach, I've received a long email the next day. And in some cases, if I asked to have lunch with them or coffee, their first response was no. They were already thinking about the church they were gonna move to. They were already out. And so, and I would feel heartbroken over that and devastated over that and think that I was, it was all my fault that I couldn't keep the white people or because am I truly a multi-ethnic, you see what I'm saying? I had this season where my scorecard for being a successful, faithful, multi-ethnic church pastor was based on, could I keep the white people or not? Which is still center and whiteness. - Yep. - And so, I had to figure a way out of that. To still shepherd and love the white brothers and sisters that God has allowed me to care for and to shepherd, but not center this so much that my report card is based on them alone. - So when you say center, what does that specifically mean? In terms of like avoiding certain topics, does it mean you're sort of always sort of catering to like their preferences when it comes to music or the kind of ministries we do. - Preaching style. - Preaching style. - Yes, like, I-- - So I think some people would be like, so what is that, right? Yeah, I think any time I was thinking, The service too long is a service too loud. In what context am I wrestling with that? Am I wrestling with that with every ethnicity and racial group in the church? Or am I just thinking about white people when I'm thinking about all these things? You know, should we change the service? Should we change the way we do outreach? Should we change the way we're doing discipleship? - There we go. - Am I making those decisions because I've surveyed, I've checked with people across the board or is it because I had a lunch or a coffee with a white brother who makes a lot of money and is politically conservative? Is that why I'm wrestling so deeply? And so I have to keep processing that. But again, I'm at a place now where I believe to a degree, black theology, black church ecclesiology and missiology could be a gift, not just to black people, but to all people. The white church doesn't even think it's the white church. It thinks it's the church. - The church, yeah, yeah, yeah. - It just thinks it's evangelicals or Bible centered or seekers targeted or, you know, missional. So the white church won't even accept that it's a white church. But for those of us that know it is, - Like that it's cultural. It feels like, hey, this gathering of people have like cultural preferences, but it's just so normative that they're like, no, this is just the way it's done. - So what I'm wrestling with now as a pastor of a multi-emptive church is how do I bring this gift that I embody to the multi-ethnic church without going so far that I go, oh, I just replaced whiteness with blackness 'cause I don't wanna go that far. I want the church to be Christ centered and multicultural, but I do want to bring black Christianity into the ingredients of the recipe in some meaningful way. And if I assimilate, I'm keeping the church from experiencing that gift. - That's good. I was gonna ask before you, and you sort of mentioned it when you said is it because I had a coffee or I sat down with someone who might be more fluent or not. But essentially asking like, where do you feel like the trepidation or concern came from? - Well, I think part of my journey has been, it's both sides, I can't just say, oh, this was on the white people. This was also, I think it was the tension between having white brothers and sisters in your church who have never had to sit under black authority. They never had to go to a black person for a job, for a loan, for permission, for permissions. And so that's something new for them. And then I had to own and I've never supervised white people. I never sat in a room with somebody that was white and said, no, I hear what you're saying, but we're not doing that. No, I heard you the third time you said it. (laughing) No, yes, I read Henry Nowin and it's still no. I read Dallas Willard and it's still no. - I read Thomas Soul and it's still no. (laughing) - He's right, because they gotta find somebody black. It says it too, to say, hey, you need help. - Claire's Thomas. (laughing) - So we heard Thomas, for a while it was, and I'd say this in our respect, 'cause he's passed me lost him, but I mean, in recent years, it was like Vody Bachum said it. - Oh yeah, that's right. - And so that I'm, oh man, you know, now you'd get me if you said Tony Evans said it, sometimes I'd be like, ah. (laughing) - Yeah, man, that's the black Billy Graham. - Yeah. - Sproul. - The alternative you. - The black Billy Graham. - The alternative you know. - But, so I had to admit, this is a dance that we're both learning. - Yeah. - I'm learning what it means to shepherd white brothers and sisters, Asian brothers and sisters, et cetera. And they're learning what it means to receive me as their pastor, as someone who is speaking into their life, trying to equip them as disciples in a multicultural, multiracial mission field that is very divisive and polarizing. - How much work does it take to help white people, even see that it is, in and of itself, its own culture, where so much of life is so normative, where I go to school, the leaders look a certain way, the teachers look a certain way, the people who are typically forming my experience, all look a certain way. And now, for whatever reason, I feel like, I need to come to a place, and now the person who is in front of me, who is directing me, who is supposed to be, who God is using to shape my life, who's giving me direction on where I should go, who in some cases will discipline me, when this has never happened before, how do you break through that sort of like, what's been such a normative life for them? - Well, one, this is where, this is why I believe that black pastors of multicultural, multi-ethnic churches need to seek God on the ways that God desires, that they inject their Christian blackness into the multicultural church, to give people an opportunity to really discern, if this is what they want to sign up for, if this is what they want to be a part of. - Is this what you were talking about? - Yeah, so in my sermons, I try as much as possible, to use illustrations that tell stories of my grandparents in Birmingham, Alabama, in Monroe, Louisiana, to tell stories of my father. So here's a story that gets to, I guess what I'm talking about, there was a white brother that wanted to have coffee with me, and so we were sitting at a coffee shop, and he goes, pastor, I really love Midtown, I really respect you. It's just in your sermons, when you start doing that black thing, I just lose me. So I thought, man, was I hooping? - Right. - I think I was hooping, did I? Did I say precious loo-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho? ♪ Tick my ♪ - Did you do the throat thing? - I was thinking like, "Oh, yeah." (laughs) - But I said, I don't think I, he goes, so I said, "No, explain, what do you mean?" When you say the black thing, and he said, "Well, you start telling stories of your dad, "in Louisiana, in your grandparents." And so at the time, I was co-pasturing with the founding pastor of the church, who's Armenian and European. And so I said, I said, when pastor Bob is sharing stories about his parents, do you feel like he's telling white stories? - Doing the white thing? And he, he said, he stopped, then he's like, I never thought of it that way. I said, you'll truly know what you signed up for, being in a multicultural church, when you can digest the stories of my parents and grandparents, in the same way you can digest pastor Bob's stories, his parents, his grandparents. - That's good. - And so, you know, it reminds me of when I was pastor and sanctuary, and we were just starting, we used to have these potluck meals. And I would say, everybody brings something that represents your upbringing. So we had like the collagreens next to the kimchi, next to the fried rice. I mean, we even had sweet potato pie and pumpkin pie. That's how deep we were into the journey of reconciliation, pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie, don't get along. - No. - That's like the Minnesota Vikings and the Green Bay Packers. - No, you can say, well, you can't do that. - Can't do that. - But I said to everybody, I said, unless you're allergic to it, - Eat it. - Would you take a little bit? - Let's take a little bit of as much as you can, because as we're digesting one another's foods, God wants to prepare us to digest one another's pain, one another's joys, one another's testimonies, one another's journeys. That's what it means to me to be a part of the multi-ethnic church. And unfortunately, some people don't want to digest other, some people don't want to digest the stories of the undocumented. Some people don't want to digest the stories of the unhoused. Some people don't want to digest the stories of the incarcerated. Some people don't want to digest George Floyd's story. They didn't come here to eat that. That's a little too spicy. - Wow. - That's a little much. - Flavors too strong. - Yeah. And so I'm saying, maybe like Peter in Acts chapter 10, God's trying to change the spiritual taste buds, so you can go to Cornelius' house. And so I feel like as a black pastor, I have to challenge the taste buds of the congregation. that's good. I think so this is interesting because you mentioned the stories of your you know your family right from the south and all that. I think it'd be important for you to kind of share a little bit of a little bit of your upbringing because you have a foundation with the black church and this foundation that you have with the black church and obviously in a multi-ethnic space. I think for people our audience to hear kind of how you grew up in that regard, I think that would actually add more flavor to the actual conversation. And what I want to do is I want to take a little bit of that story and incorporate of given an example of what I mean when I say the best gift I can give a multi-ethnic church is my unapologetically black Christian self. So my dad is from a small town outside of Monroe, Louisiana called Bosco Parish. He did not truly experience integration until he left home at 18, 19 years old, uh, wrote a Greyhound bus going to Minneapolis, Minnesota to find work. And I think by the time he changed buses in Missouri was the first time he could sit anywhere on the bus. So when people say that's a long long time ago like, no, I'm one generation removed from Jim Crow. I was born in 1969. King was assassinated in in '68. So this, so this, this is not like, oh, that was, why are we still talking about that? That was long, long, long time ago. My mother's from Birmingham, Alabama. So she knows something about, you know, 16th Street Baptist Church. She knows something about who is bull Connor. You know, and so, you know, I still have a child about bull Connor. So, so that's my parents up bringing. And, and, and I grew up in the black church. I mean, my, my parents on purpose sent me down south just about every summer, because they wanted me to appreciate what I had in Minneapolis. And so, you know, I thought all black people were like prints in the time. And more is day, you know, I didn't know that. Oh, we, this is where we came from. And so, and then, you know, experiencing the black church in the south, growing up at, at Redeemer Missionary Baptist Church in South Minneapolis, I grew up on the block where George Floyd died in South Minneapolis. And then, when I was getting ready to graduate undergrad is when I sensed a call to the ministry. And I was licensed, ordained, apprenticed by my wife's grandfather. So, I was the old school way. Like, you know, he, he had to preach a trial sermon. The church had to deliberate and vote whether I should be licensed. And then for almost two years, I, I shadowed pastor Edward Barry senior wherever he went, I went. And it was old school. You know, you just get to the pulpit on Sunday and he tells you what you're going to do. You're going to do the Old Testament reading. I bet if I know Old Testament. And then when he thought I was ready, he brought me before the state Baptist convention or the national Baptist convention USA. And I was ordained. Then I went to seminary. And, and I was fortunate that I was around black pastors like pastor Alfred Harris, who said these other African-American pastors are going to tell you don't go to seminary because it's a cemetery. And it's going to take your blackness out of you. You go to seminary. And I'll give you James Cohn, J.D. Otis Roberts, Henry Mitchell, Ellen Mitchell. I'll introduce you to those people, but you go into seminary. Wow. And so that's tight. So I came into the evangelical covenant, denomination, and church planting with a strong foundation of the black church. I'm fortunate that, that way that I knew, you know, over the years, even once I was in the evangelical covenant church, I was fortunate to have people like Dr. J. Alfred Smith, senior William Pennell, Dr. Brenda Salter McNeil, Zina Jacques. I was fortunate to have Cheryl Sanders just access Tom Skinner. I had access to Tom Skinner. That's amazing. I had access to black people in the black church. And I had access to black people and evangelicalism that refused to let me sell out. Black people that were in evangelicalism paying the price for brothers like me and for bone. I mean, like we're able to do what we do to me because William Pennell and Stan Long, I mean, I had Verly Sankster, Bonixen, these older black men and women that paid a price, I mean, Francis Grimke. I'm not as familiar with him, but I mean, you know, Gay Rod Wilmore that were in predominantly Anglo settings, but writing about black religion and black radicalism. So you, I think you're set up well to speak to this. I mean, you come from the black church, have a love for the black church, you know it. You're ordained in it. There are those some who would say what we need to return to the black church in this current climate. Well, name different people, but yeah, some prominent names have said, you know, the multi-fnate church, given how often it does tend to go in certain directions that take you away from speaking to justice and other issues, given I mean, there was a New York Times article, a number of years back about how many black people are leaving multi-fnate churches because things were happening like George Floyd and other things and their church wasn't responding to it or they were disrecognizing that maybe the church was dealing with it, but there's all these tensions related to it that just being we need to be in a space where we can be sort of fully our own. It's to be in a multi-fnate space does require compromise and multiple directions. I love what you said. I mean, it's you're trying to, no, whiteness can be normative, but you're also not trying to make it a black church. It's a multi-fnate church. Some people would say that's, that's well and good, but the reality is like what we really need, given everything you've experienced is the black church and more of us should be returning to that being in those spaces. I mean, how would you answer that? Yeah, you know, when I wrote the book, the post-black post-white church, just so people wouldn't think that I was trying to say we're done with the black church. I had a whole chapter about the black church in the book saying we still need the black church. We need multi-ethnic churches, I believe, but we still very much need the black church. And in some cases, the best place for black Christians to be is the black church and the best place for unchurched black people to find Jesus is in the black church. But I also believe we need the multi-ethnic multicultural church. I'm fortunate. And I would say this about Roosevelt community church too. I mean, we're not the majority of multi-ethnic churches. I think those black people that Dr. Corey Edwards is talking about in a strange pioneers. In the elusive dream, I think those were black people that left multi-ethnic churches pastured by white men. Yeah, and it's a difference. And I think a church like, I mean, I know I'm a sound bias and self-serving, but I think Midtown church is different. I think Roosevelt community church is different. When the leader is not an Anglo male, I think the multi-ethnic church is a different experience. If they're being their authentic self. Yes, if they're being their authentic self. And now what I appreciate about Midtown is the black population is significant enough to hold me to the fire. I mean, we're a diverse church, but we have civil rights attorneys in our church. We have Jerry Manuel, who was the first African-American manager of the Chicago White Sox. And he's from Sacramento and now retired living. I mean, there are African-Americans that will not let me stray from who I am. They would have, that's when the black people would have a meeting. Can we talk to you? What happened to you? You know, the other thing is I think there are intentional spiritual practices and rhythms that African-American pastors. Well, I shouldn't say that. Vermont and John, you'd have to, you could push back and say, well, not for me. But so let me start by not saying all black pastors and multi-ethnic churches need to do this. But for me, like having an older black man as a therapist, having an older black man as a spiritual director, it's been like phenomenal for me and staying in the multi-ethnic church, going to Africa. So in November, I'll be going back to Ghana for the seventh time. And there's just something for me. Now, everybody can't go to Ghana every year, right? But I think you got to find something that causes you to wrestle in the healthiest way possible with your Christian blackness. - And I would say, Ramon, you inspired me. I remember the first time we met and I came to your house and saw your bookshelf. I was like, my God. (laughing) - That is kind of bookshelf. - 'Cause I, this is Rome and I didn't know you very well. So I thought like he was in the gospel coalition and like, reformed and like, you know, the John Piper Institute for, I don't know, I'm just playing. (laughing) But I mean, I, and I have to, it's just so that I'm out there. Like, I get criticized a little 'cause I'm, I'm kind of Greg Boydian in my theology. So, but, outside of nerding out on that, I, you pushed me to, to really figure out, 'cause again, I cannot to give Midtown church a plate full of James Cohn. - Mm-hmm. - They tell, not, they don't need Benadreel. (laughing) But I can give 'em a teaspoon. I can give 'em a tablespoon of it. You know, they should get a little JDodis Roberts in there. You know, and for me, they're gonna get a little Greg Boyd, they're gonna get a little Henry now and they're gonna, you know, I mean, but, so I have to figure out what is it I need to stay healthy, spiritually, mentally, emotionally in a multi-ethnic church? And what can I give Midtown from that experience that creates a healthy diet? Because again, I can't, I can't do black liberation theology every Sunday. (laughing) Well, I mean, I could, but not a plate full. - You'd be like, of course, feeding at that point. - Well, it's like you said before, like what you're trying to say is, you're trying to minister to the people that you have and left without sort of intentionality that what they'll receive tends to be what's called sort, the normative diet is American white evangelicalism, right? - Yeah. - A lot of us have been around it. We've been trained by it, et cetera. What we need, what's needed is the full breath of what the American church is, which is the black church, right? - Yes. - I often say a black church history is American church history. - Yes. - And arguably is maybe the most faithful representation of American, of gospel faithfulness, if we really, really look at it, right? In terms of, you know, we always go to Edwards and all these other people, like there's other people saying, just as deep things as he was, but also dinner-hold slaves, right? - Wow. - And so it's, so what I understand you doing, and I think all of us are trying to do is say like, it's not so much that I'm like ignoring, right? So I'm not someone who would say, I'm going to ignore everything from American, what's typical, what we're typically, typically think of of American church history, right? And so I'll talk about Moody, Edwards sometimes, right? I mean, I'm not against those. I'm just saying, your diet has been too much of that. - Yeah. - And so we need to be intentional on saying, we need more things besides that. And that's what you're doing. You're trying to say like, it's not all of it, but I'm trying to compensate for that, so that you actually then can walk away, and we're all the better for it. And I think that one of the best things for a Moody Avenue church is that sense of solidarity. It's not like me against you, right? It's us together. I'm the one leading, and I'm trying to say, what can I, I'm in a position to try to draw from a lot of traditions. Yeah, I'm drawing heavily from this one particular tradition because I think it's incredibly helpful to us today, and represents things that we really need that we can be faithful Christians together in a way that represents the kingdom. - Yeah, so if I'm thinking about the state of the multi-ethnic church, I'm thinking, in the 1980s and 1990s, there was a lot of multi-ethnic churches that started, I think this really came out of the Promise Keepers movement. - 100%. - And so multi-ethnic, multi-racial churches within evangelical denominations and movements were really about person to person individual relationships. That Jesus is gonna change your heart, and then through that heart change, through that soul change, through salvation and sanctification, there's gonna be this relational transformative thing that's gonna happen between me and a white brother. - Naturally. - Yeah, and just put us in the same space, let us worship together, pray together, be in small groups together. And I'm not saying that isn't part of the deal in a multi-ethnic church, but I think now the question for the multi-ethnic church is sin is not just in the soul. Sin is in systems and structures. And there's an emerging generation of black, brown, and white young people that are wondering if the church sees the sin in structures, in systems, and not just in their individual souls. And will they speak to it, preach about it, shepherd people, help people navigate the trauma that comes from it. - Trauma. - And I think the state of the multi-ethnic church in the future is it can't just be cum by yaw. Let's just, man, if we could just meet in a coffee shop, if we could just get in a small group together, if we could just have a men's ministry of it, and if we could just colorblind our way through this. I don't think the multi-ethnic church can missionally navigate the times we're in with that. I think we're gonna have to look at systems and souls. - What would you say, because you named three churches, Midtown, Roosevelt, Transformation, North Carolina? But the people who would say, well, that's fine. We don't need the multi-ethnic church, but for the way things are, it's better that everybody just kind of go to their corner, because people are saying things like that. How do you respond to that? Are you responding to that? Are you saying, is it more like a beacon for those of you out there who are really trying to build this revelation type, eternity type, every tribe, tongue, nation, language, worshiping God in spirit and in truth? Hear me, this is what things need to go. Is it a response to people who are saying, we don't need to do, we don't need multi-ethnic anymore, or is it a beacon to sort of those to say, hey, for y'all out there who are actually trying to build like this, this is what it needs to look like. - I think both, I mean, for someone that would say, we don't need the multi-ethnic church, I would say, if you're talking about a multi-ethnic church that centers whiteness and won't admit it, I'd know what you're talking about. But that's not the only expression of multi-ethnic church to choose from. In terms of those that are already doing it, I would just say, I know why I have an advantage over many white brothers and sisters pastored multi-ethnic church, because I already had to study John Piper and Great Boy in Dallas, Willard. I had to study Moatman, and I couldn't get through seminary without Martin Luther and John Wesley and Whitfield and Moody. I couldn't, you know, where you can be a white brother and say, I want to plant a multi-racial church and you've never read a non-white theologian in your life. And I just go, you're at a disadvantage if you're trying to plant a multi-ethnic church or pastor one now, and you don't have a diverse, biblically rooted, Christ-centered bookshelf materials. So to me, I have an advantage because, oh, I also have an advantage because I already learned how to talk to white people. I know I don't talk to white people before, I mean, again, to get a grade, to get a loan, to get permission, to get advancement, I had to learn how to negotiate, communicate with, listen to your multi-lingual. Read white people. You could be a white pastor and you don't know the body language of the people, okay? You don't understand the body language of a Korean person versus the body language of an African-American in the inner city or African-American that went to more house. And that has to be learned over time. - Yeah, yeah. - So with all of this, you mention ingredients, particularly black church ingredients. What are the black church ingredients that you think should be interjected into multi-ethnic churches? - One of the gaps that exist between American Christianity and the first century Christians of the Bible is that the first century Christians, until the fourth century in Constantine, the Christian story was a story from the margins. It was a story of oppressed, persecuted, incarcerated, martyred people that were descendants of people that had been enslaved and exiled. Where American Christianity is mostly told from the vantage point of people that are educated on a home, and they get a celebrity platform for believing in Jesus in promoting it. They get book deals for talking about Jesus, not jail. But actually, African-Americans have a history. Even the way we talked about Jesus put us in jail. Even the way we expressed the agenda in the mission of Jesus was illegal. And so I think that there's aspects of black theology and Black church ecclesiology, missiology, that gives us a better understanding of the context of the first century Christians. And so that's why I think it's not the only thing but it's one of the things that should be injected. And I also get that every, you know, again, Black people on the monolith, as it said. And so everybody has a different story. And so I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to say every Black pastor of a multi ethnic church needs to have James Baldwin down, but I'm saying, but it helps to have some of the journey and story of the African diaspora in your toolbox because I think, I think we can do a better job of helping people understand exactly what Paul was going through. What I love about the analogy of cooking and the potluck and the dishes is that most of the time, and maybe this is a black thing, but I feel like a lot of people say, oh, I left that church because I wasn't getting fed. And when you talk about the way you need to have experience with different flavors, like almost like seminaries should be a better culinary school and teach you how to cook with different flavors so that when you get, and when you get to the pulpit, you can deliver a dish for whoever's there, right? Or as you know, your people saying in seminary, we just learn lasagna, the green bean casserole with the crispy onions on top. - Yeah, the basic stuff, you know what I'm saying? You get a little separate spot and just got a little everyday to this. Just the same thing you just throw it in, put it in the oven, it's done. Which is great. - Hot dish. - And it does get your full, get your hot meal, you know? But you don't go hungry. - Yeah, you won't go hungry. - You won't starve. - But you can't just eat potatoes all the time. - Right, you just can't eat the same starchy food. And I feel like often that's what people get. And they wonder when they get older, they're not prepared or they don't feel like they have, they can't move the way they can. But introduce a little root vegetable here and there and introduce a little bit more flavor or defrost something in there. - And people will like it when they taste it. Like I'm saying, for some reason, white brothers and sisters eating ox tails now. (laughing) Man, do you see the price of ox tails now that our white brothers and sisters like it? Man, I used to go to four ox tails now. I'm like, Chad, stop eating ox tails. (laughing) It's the price has gone, what are you up for? But I don't think the heat of tension between police and the black community is like the best time to serve the food 'cause then it is a little spicy. So, but right now, I mean, not that nothing's going on. I mean, there's stuff going on. Oh, it's something going on. But you understand, when there's not as much tension in your local community racially, it's probably the best time to serve sweet potato pie on Sunday. - Building things now that it will help you wear. - So that way, when something unfortunate does happen, you can say, remember, you like sweet potato pie. Why are you acting like it's nasty now? (laughing) We served us two months ago and you was looking at your fingers afterwards. So, one other thing I wanted to ask was, some minority led multi-efton churches is, I think, one of that, I think, I deal for how you build and lead multi-efton churches. But I know there's white leaders and others who say, but, you know, look, I'm not a minority, but I do really want to have our church be multi-eftonic. I'm sort of joking, is there any hope for them? I mean, what, what, what, I mean, I think it's, I would say it's harder in this context now, especially to have one. You could do one that's superficial, but have one that's deep in the ways that you talk about, can, what would you say to white leaders who say like, but we do care about this vision, what should we do? - Read and study enough to realize that when you're pastoring a multi-eftonic church, you can't approach it as if you can shepherd everybody the same. I think the reason, at least in the conversations that I had, which I know are limited, part of the black exodus out of multi-eftonic churches was feeling like when, when COVID and George Floyd and the presidential election, all that was heated, there were black people that just felt like they weren't shepherd in that moment. That, like, it felt like, if I'm just generalizing, white pastors of multi-eftonic churches and diverse churches had to make a choice, and they chose the white congregants that had a higher net, yeah, than the white ones did. It became a, it was like, well, man, we can't meet in the building. Like, I got to keep this money flowing. And, at least, that there are just black people that were like, man, I think he's preaching past me to my white brothers and sisters. I'm right here, though, and I'm grieving, and I'm hurting, and I'm not sure you really understand the level of trauma that I'm carrying. Would you go study that? Would you at least go read post-traumatic slave syndrome? Just read that book, learn about epigenetics and how it is possible that on your gene, you're carrying the trauma of your grandparents and your great-grandparents. So I told you my dad's story. So just imagine if you just think about this as four black men around this table for a minute, if you are carrying not just the trauma that you've accumulated in your own life, but if you are carrying the trauma of your father and your grandfather and your great-grandfather, what are you carrying around? There's a book called The Invisible Ake by Courtney Vance. And so I would just encourage white pastors just to take the time to understand in a multicultural church, the different kinds of traumas and aches and issues people are carrying and how we can shepherd people well in the midst of it. We don't have to do everything. I'm not trying to put pressure on the pastor to be, but it might impact who you bring in or who you bring on your staff, who you bring in to preach, who you're friends with outside of the church, who you accept as friends and enemies. Yeah. So yeah, and then you know, all of us want, you know, just can't wait for the midterms and I'll just get them. (laughing) That's not true, just keep it on Jesus. Jesus! (laughing) Y'all can edit that part out. No, we're gonna keep that in there. (laughing) You're gonna keep that in. Come on, come on, Reverend. No, you wanted me to get black, huh? That's the black thing, that's the black thing I said. (laughing) You're the black thing again. You're gonna do that again. Oh my God. Alfred, this was good, man. Oh man, appreciate you, man. Man, like we always say, love God, love people, we are out. Peace.