Are Gen Z And Millennials Dating Differently? (ft. Logan Ury)

This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal people of the urination Hello mad about yours. Oh my god another week lucky us guys. Welcome back another week with us And as always it means a lot they hear and do we have an episode for you this week? Holy moly guys now being mainly a dating and relationship podcast idea say we fit the jackpot with today's guest Oh absolutely we have the pleasure today to speak to a Harvard trained behavioral psychologist and the director of relationship science at hinge So when it comes to trends preferences or data Today's guest has all the answers and thanks to her extensive studies We're gonna learn a lot today. So I've always been super interested myself in behavioral science and I've actually I actually know of this person's work and have consumed some of it So I'm really excited to chat to her today and at the end of the episode Jed and I have an ask my my dad from someone who is struggling big time on the apps so oh That's convenient. Yeah, well obviously I saved it for this episode knowing that it's coming Um, okay. Yeah, did you not know I did that that you thought ahead? Well like if I get one about something and then we're talking about that in a few weeks I'll save it for that app so it's so for that episode so it's relatable, but um you're the best thanks man Guys let's let's get stuck in and have a chat to our guest You Logan, thank you so much for joining us. I'm mad about you We um we really appreciate having you your time and an expertise today. So thanks for joining us Yeah, I'm thrilled to be here Now Logan, I just wanted to give our listeners a little heads up about um sort of yourself before we get stuck into it So guys Logan studied psychology at Harvard she ran Google's behavioral science team And now helps the love lives of thousands as hinges director of relationship science She also wrote a book called how not to die alone and stars as the dating coach on netflix's later data So basically if um Global dating how to see you it would pretty much be Logan Thank you. That's a good intro. Yeah. Well, it's your your resume is unbelievable and it kind of I don't know It fits our fits our pod perfectly because we are you know dating relationship marriage kids kind of podcast and it sounds like you You'll have a plethora of knowledge to sort of share with our listeners. So yeah, thank you so much Logan And I actually came across your work um about three four years ago now when you're on the modern wisdom podcast um Oh, yeah, because I'm a fan of Chris's podcast and I remember seeing yours and listening to it and I found the chat really interesting So I'm looking forward to hearing what's um what's even shifted and changed in the last four years of of your data But Logan what can you just please just tell us what does the role director of relationship science essentially do at hinge? Yeah, it's a dream role. I've actually worked at hinge for six years. I just had my six-year anniversary So it's the longest I've ever stayed in one job and that's because it's always growing and changing because dating is always evolving And so the majority of my work is conducting research into modern dating trends and so understanding You know starting from when I was first there during the pandemic. How are people dating during the pandemic? How are they communicating to now? Gen Z is older. How is sober dating impacting the way that people meet um, how is You know, how are different aspects of culture and the economy and all those different things impacting dating and then coming out with these great date reports at hinge that Include original research and then commentary from me and one of our other spokespeople How do you collect the daughter if you don't mind me asking Logan? Sure. Yeah We have a team of behavioral scientists and PhD researchers that conduct qualitative interviews so um You know one-on-one live interviews and then also a lot of survey data and we use all of that to come up with insights into how people are dating And for a lot of these reports we do specifically look at australia specific numbers And so I don't have them off the top of my head But in the report and in um, you know what we share with the australia media It's really cool to see what's the same as US data's and what's different I can imagine it would be a little bit different though right because I've heard plenty of Um, I've seen videos online sorry of like women for example saying that when they go to America Men are really forward and very happy to like come up and offer to buy them a drink and chat to them Whereas women in Australia experience the opposite where they go out and they you know spend time out and about or abroad And they say little Australian men don't really have like you know as much confidence as say American men to come up and and chat chat them up in person Oh, that's so interesting because I feel like my experience especially when I was in college and studying abroad was that you know all the Pub crawls were led by these very confident australian men Maybe it's a particular type that wind up in those jobs, but like I definitely have a stereotype of um Confident and charming australian men scattered around the world Maybe think maybe they're just the yeah as you said like the head of the snake, you know You want so confident when I met you that is true. Chad did muscle talk. Well you pretended not to be it was a role he played a little Cheeky little I'm gonna stand here and be very mysterious not saying anything and I wasn't sure whether it was a lack of confidence or whether it was A tactic and I've later found out that it was in fact a tactic and it did work on me so they did work two kids later It wasn't a tactic. I was just at work. I had to be professional. Oh come on. What did you do at work? Yeah, we did I worked on the um at a nightclub in Sydney Um on the door kind of actually like like Chris did for many years and Chad was just a Beautiful woman that by one that and came for a drink and the rest is history But no, we weren't colleagues if that's what you were asking I was asking that but it is and he was working, but you weren't Yeah, he had to play it a bit more You were there I was I wasn't drinking when we met and she was drinking so that maybe that's why I wasn't as chatty as she was Um, so Logan in your work. I've heard that you've referenced three dating tendencies So I'd love to know what are those and just a little bit more about them Yes, so this is something that I came up with as a dating coach So I've been helping people one-on-one for the last 10 years in addition to my book and everything I do at hinge And so I've found that even people from different walks of life different ages different backgrounds a lot of them suffer from these three different Issues in dating what I call the three dating tendencies and they all have to do with unrealistic expectations And so I've organized them into this framework and the first one is the Romanticizer And these are people that have unrealistic expectations of relationships So I'm sure you know friends like this and maybe you even are this type of person who's you know I'll I'll know it when I see it. There's one soulmate out there for me I don't want to meet on the apps. I want the Romantic meet cute And it's really about this kind of Disney fantasy fairy tale Yeah Then the second type is the maximizer and they have unrealistic expectations of their partner So this is the kind of person and I'm sure I spoke to Chris about this who's always saying like Well, I optimize my life and I do all these hacks and I always search for the perfect Bed and the perfect Bluetooth headphones of course I'm going to search for my partner that way And they keep trying to find someone better and better and better and they're very focused on finding the perfect person And they're always you know seeking that And then the third type is the hesitating are and they have unrealistic expectations of themselves And this is the kind of person who doesn't date because they don't feel like they're lovable yet Or that they're ready So they say things like all date when I lose 10 pounds when I have a more impressive job when I The feel more settled in my apartment and they're always moving the gold post And there's just a sense that they never put them out cells out there because they think if they did they would get rejected And for anyone who's listening they can take the quiz on my website logonuary.com/quiz And what I think is so helpful about these tendencies is that it gives you a name for what's holding you back And then I can share specific advice for each tendency It's so funny even just hearing you talk about them I'm thinking about friends that I have who are single and I can put them in each Like different categories and and where they sort of yeah what issues they're having and yeah you've You've really yeah hit an ale in the head with that What kind of data do you think each of you were Oh, I'm definitely the romanticizer. Oh for sure. I'm yeah, I've got I've got a dreamy kind of veil over everything in my life It can be a great trait because romanticizers believe in love and it's easy for them to get into relationships But what can be hard for the romanticizer is that when the relationship hits that inevitable rough spot They're like well, this is hard. It must not be my soulmate and so for them some of it is around understanding that It's not about you know Things never being hard. It's about working hard at the relationship and building the relationship of good friends What about you look? I'm actually not 100% sure like I I was trying to find one that I resonate yeah within I don't know if I fit maybe like a combination of a few like I like to think I'm a little bit of a romanticizer But then perhaps a little bit of a maximizer like I'm quite like a I don't know logical critical think her try to like I don't know always be a problem solver. So maybe yeah, I don't know um is ultra realistic So we're kind of on opposite ends of the spectrum there I feel interesting Yeah, and then just to dig into the maximizer a bit more So this is the kind of person who says who comes like to my virtual office and is like You know, I really liked these two ex-girlfriends I want you to find the height of this one plus the ambition of this one plus the looks of this one And it's like they're trying to shop for a relationship the way that you would shop for a product Which is obviously not the way that humans are and what the trouble that Maxard Miser's get into and perhaps you know people like this I know plenty of people like this is like they turn 35. They turn 40 They turn 45 and instead of finding something great and committing to them They just keep looking because they think that there could be somebody better and they don't understand that actually you know as you get older The pool does get smaller and some of the people that you Rejected in your past you wish you could be with now and so for them it really gets in their way because they always think that Someone better or the perfect person is out there instead of just committing to someone and building a great relationship so in In taking that into consideration. How would you then suggest people don't fall into the trap of unrealistic preferences or expectations when it comes to Finding someone on an app like hinge. Yeah, so I'll go each one and go through my tips for them So we talked a bit about romanticizer, but for them it's really about understanding this shift from What we call in research the soulmate mindset the idea that there's one person for you and it should be so easy to this concept called The work it out mindset that relationships require work and that if you're putting in work You're doing it right and worry less about the we met story because it doesn't really matter how you met What's romantic is that you met at all and that you're making this great relationship and I like this stat that the day if you're together for 50 years the day you met was 0 0 5% of your total relationship just to say it doesn't really matter if you met on an app or if you met you know at the club Or wherever and so you know focus less on that and that understand that your great partner may not come in the package that you were expecting Romanticizers can get very caught up in the way that somebody looks and then the second type is the Ro is the maximizer and for them it's about understanding that there is no perfect person and that it's much more about what you put into the relationship and not the person themselves And so this isn't exact math, but it's almost like a maximizer thinks it's like 95% about the search and then 5% what you put in But really I think that it might be like 25% who you choose and 75% the work you put in because you could be with someone great But if you don't put the effort in and you don't honor the relationship then it's going to fade and then for the hesitate Or it's really about getting themselves out there It's about knowing that no one's ever 100% ready. You have to start before you're ready Nobody picks up the guitar for the first time and you know can play the Beatles And it's really about giving yourself a chance to learn through dating and not sitting around waiting to one day be fully ready to date What would you say to people who come back and say is that not just settling? Yeah, this comes up all this time and I think about it as the S word and people really are so afraid of it and I Have thought about this a lot because people bring it up all the time and I've had people crying and coaching sessions You just want me to settle you don't think I deserve it My feeling about this is that Settling is when you have certain things that are really important to you and you give up on them But what I'm trying to help people do is say tell me the things that matter to you Let's double down on those okay Honesty kindness feeling attracted to someone great I don't want you to compromise on that But what are the things that you could compromise on so for example I often tell people to worry less about height. I think there's such an obsession with height these days and It just doesn't matter for long-term relationship success And I think people could be with plenty of men, you know that are shorter than maybe they Are looking for on an app and then Sometimes people worry too much about small pet peeves like oh he Choose with his mouthful or he has bad style. It's like sure that can annoy you that can be a pet peeve But it's don't make it a deal breaker. Don't make it something where you reject someone over it There's a lot of chat about X these days and I feel like that's kind of what you're highlighting is if there's an Iq maybe try to overlook it and focus on the things that they have that you actually really want in a person. Oh my gosh 100% I have an Iq for the Iq Because I just I hate I hate that term and sorry to cut you off But Jadon I have had we've done full episodes where we do a lot of episodes where listeners ride in with like dating stories Or you know Iqs that they've had in relationships and we didn't Iq episode once and some of them were as simple as like I went on a date with this gentleman and he didn't use his cutlery properly And and then the rest of the story was like he was amazing handsome great like he was so kind and genuine But it was an Iq and I I sacked it off and I was kind of think to myself like surely that's a conversation You could have or something that you could overcome if the person The sitting opposite you at the table is amazing except for the way that they use their cutlery You know and it just yeah, it's it's almost seems like a cop out You know that people just throw away a relationship over something like that. Yeah, that's exactly how I feel My friend is the comedian Jared Freed and he has a lot of funny bits in his standup special about the Iq and he tells a story about a woman who wouldn't see a guy again because She imagined what a guy would look like running for the bus if he missed it like that didn't even happen She just saw the image in her mind and then another lady was gonna go home with the guy and then as they went to pay the bill as he went to pay She heard the sound of And it was the Velcro wallet opening up Well, you'd have to question his age, but yeah, it's I know but you know what? It's like you can buy someone a new wallet like I feel like when I started dating my husband like his bathroom waist-basket was overflowing It's like you can say to someone like get your shit together like clean your bathroom better like get a new wallet And so I think that you know with people sharing so many stories on social media and Making tick talks about dating. It's almost like there's a currency to complaining about all this stuff when at the end of the day It's like that's not a good reason to reject someone and later you might feel like oh that guy was great He had so much going for him I wish that I had given him another chance and so I think it's a way for people to Resist intimacy and to close themselves off by focusing on something small that yes Maybe it's not the best. Maybe it's annoying. Maybe it's a puppy But that doesn't mean that you couldn't fundamentally be in a relationship with this person Overall, yeah, and I think what you just said then is that when people share stuff on Socials whether it's tiktok or Instagram and they make a little video about an ik that that's what garner's attention from people And we'll have people jump on and go I find that nick as well Or like yeah, I went on a date with this guy and he is a Nick whereas if you get on an app and you go I went on a date last night. It was amazing. He was really sweet and we had a lovely time and we had a chat Who cares about that video? Do you know what I mean? So as in people post their ex and issues because it's what's gonna Garner attention online so it's like it's a bit of a perpetual cycle of Negativity, I guess within dating. Yeah, definitely and I have that conversation with my coaching clients all the time Where I'm like, let's do an audit of who you follow on Instagram at tiktok and then when we talk about it I'm like no wonder you're so depressed about dating you're consuming content all the time that makes you feel like it'll never work out I was like are there Accounts that you can follow about success stories or maybe you should take a break from social media on some of these things So I think we should all be aware of the narratives that are coming our way Especially when we're in the vulnerable position of being single It's really important to pay attention to the stories that are infiltrating your head Do you think that in saying so that social media is perhaps fueling the romanticizer In that it's kind of making them you know have these expectations even more than they might if social media didn't exist That's an interesting question. I think I could argue it for all three I think I could argue that social media could contribute to the romanticizer If you see a lot of pictures of people having a great relationship and feeling like things work out Like that's maybe more of how I thought about social media like five to ten years ago Like back in the day on like Facebook and Instagram when people were posting They're perfect family and you know the sunset at the beach But now I feel like the pendulum has swung in the other direction Where a lot of the content is people complaining and kind of getting this credibility or Social capital for the dating horror stories And I think that could lead to some hesitators where people don't want to date at all And then I also think our culture of trying to maximize everything and you know the Andrew Huberman of it all Trying to always optimize and achieve perfection and hustle culture. I think that can contribute to Maximizers. I live in the Bay Area. I'm surrounded by AI and entrepreneurship and Silicon Valley and I think that this breeds a lot of Maximizers because people want to maximize everything including their partner I think maximizers is like the way I see it is that I think the social media and even perhaps dating apps really would I don't know it gives maximizers like the ability to really sink into that because I've had friends who had the issue being maximized as I would say in terms of they would go on a date with a person They would go, yeah, it went really well. Like I liked it. They go on a second date. And then it would just be that temptation of continuing to look for perhaps better. And not even perhaps like I can find someone 40, 50% better. Like maybe I can find someone one, two percent better or this little thing that I didn't like. Maybe I can find someone who doesn't do that. And I think that coupled with social media, because you know, when you're on the dating apps, you can, there's always, it's always easy to look for better. But when you have social media as well, you're always going to see people being happy that might be more beautiful than a partner or, you know, be into more of the hobbies that you're into than someone that you're dating. So yeah, I think that maximizers would have a tough time. Yes. A lot of the work for maximizers is understanding that there's a period of time in which you're in the looking phase. I'm going to look and I'm going to see who's out there. And that at a certain point, you need to leap. You need to go from looking to leaping. But they spend so much time looking, even as you said, one percent, two percent better, that they never leap or they leap too late. And then those are the people coming to me in their forties for coaching or for matchmaking, really saying, I have a smaller pool or I don't know who to be with or I've been in a series of relationships, but they always end. And so I think that for anyone listening who's a maximizer, we understand why you are like this. And I think our culture is really breeding this tendency. But you have to understand that so much about relationships is choosing someone great and building that relationship. And then if you just are constantly looking for someone better, you never get those years of growing up with someone, having somebody influencing you, you influence them, building memories. And that I personally feel like life is better lived with the partner. And so if you're always searching for perfection, you may not find anyone versus if you find someone great and make that great relationship, you get to have the experience of going through life with someone that you really love. Logan, so some people say that like first impressions are everything, right? And I feel like on an app like hinge, sometimes that can really be the case is if you're not kind of grasping someone in the first few seconds that they might just swipe past and you know, they're not, you might be swiping past your dream person because they've got a crappy profile. So I'd love to know in your opinion, what's one thing that people are doing on the apps that are putting them on the back foot in terms of setting up their profile, maybe wrong or they've put something on there that's scaring people away? What do you think is one thing that you're seeing that you wish people would start doing? Great question. I find that when people tell me they're not getting enough matches or they're not dating as much as they want, by far the number one thing they can work on is their profile. There's a bunch of other things they can work on to, but your profile, if you're an active hinge user, is really, it's like, if you rent it a billboard on a busy highway, like this is your small amount of real estate to talk about who you are. And so I can give some of the best tips on Jews and don'ts for a profile. So the first one is that your profile is really you telling a story. We need to understand who you are, what you're like and who you're looking for. Oftentimes people just do one of those things. They only talk about who they're looking for, but they don't tell us who they are or vice versa. Or people just kind of are one note. They're either super silly or they're super vulnerable, but don't show us they have a sense of humor. And what people are really looking for is that variety is somebody who can balance the humor and the vulnerability. In terms of photos, we have found in our research at hinge that, of course, unsurprisingly, that first photo really matters. That's your headshot. That's just us getting a chance to see what you look like. And so you should have a clear photo where we can see your face, no sunglasses, no filters, no other people. Just really, who what do you look like? That should be your first photo. And then in your other photos, you should have variety. You should have one with friends and family, one that shows your full body, one of you doing an activity that you love and really choose photos carefully because as I said, it's your billboard. It's a chance to show people who you are. And so when people have a photo of their dog, I'm like, okay, that's cute, but you have a photo of you with your dog. Make sure that each photo is telling something you know. People just put photos of their dog. Honestly, more than you would think. It happens not in frequently. They're just like my dog's so cute. And what if they're a dog person? I'm like, yes, but don't you go to a Reddit forum about dogs? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. I mean, people sometimes post stuff that they're not in. Like, I can't think of one off the top of my head. And I'm just like, you're kind of wasting that opportunity to show people what you look like. And then on hinge, of course, we have prompts, these icebreaker questions that people fill out. And that's really a chance to show us who you are, what you're looking for. I love the question typical Sunday because you can really paint a picture of, you know, are you the person who's waking up early and going to Barry's boot camp and drinking a smoothie and going to 10 parties or you more of somebody who wants to read and bed and then order dumplings in. And I think that when I see people's profiles, I'm like, oh, I get such a better vision of who you are. And now I know whether or not like you would be a good match for someone. Would you say using your first photo as a topless photo is a yes or a no as a man. I should clarify as a man. I was like, what? I've taught dating classes where like over 100 people are giving each other feedback on their profiles. And something that comes up is that different photos serve different purposes. So if you're at a phase of life where you're looking to have fun, you might have a photo that really emphasizes your body or sexuality. Like that might be what you're looking for. But if you are looking for a more serious relationship, just understand what that might come across as. And so there is no wrong photo, you know, don't include a bikini photo, don't include a shirtless photo for a guy, but just understand that you're giving across a different message. Like a guy who has a toxin his first photo or somebody who is clearly more corporate, that is giving across a certain thing. And so I feel like I would never say, oh, you can't have that photo, but understand that you are coming across as like a bit more of a playboy party boy. I feel like the getting photos at someone's wedding is always a good idea. Like people look great when they go to weddings, you know. Oh, yeah. That's a good first photo. Totally. I agree. And it's funny. I think women just in general are so much better at saying to their friends like, hey, I look cute. Take a picture of me. And then when I work with guys, they're like, I don't have a single photo that is just of me. And I'm not going to go ask my guy friends to take it. Yeah. That's so funny that you say that. I literally one of my best mates, I just went overseas with and stuff. And one of his requests was, can you please without me asking, just take a few photos for my, for ever when I get back. And then I did take a few. And then when he got back, he was like, I think I need a few more. So like next time I come over, can you take, you know, and it was something that's like, I'm probably the, I'm probably one of the only people he would feel comfortable doing that with. I totally get it that when you go out with, with blokes, they're probably not whipping out their cameras going like, oh, you look really nice in this restaurant. And that's something that girls are so good at it. Because like, honestly, so many of the best photos are those candidates where the person's just so in the moment laughing, like even speaking to your point about weddings, like when you have a really good wedding photographer, sometimes they get good pictures of your friends dancing or laughing. And I just think women are just much more likely to take those pictures of their friends. So I love the story that your friend asked you to do that. And to me, it shows that you make him feel really comfortable because you're like, yeah, dude, I want you to find someone. I'll help you with your hinge profile. Like there was, there wasn't any embarrassment. It's like, yeah, this is part of the process. People are not unhinged because they love dating. People are unhinged because they're excited to meet someone and be able to never date again. Yeah, of course. Logan, I would love to know. I'm very curious. Gen Z and millennials dating differently on hinge. If so, like what is the data telling us how are their profiles different just out of curiosity, I'd love to know. Yeah. So one thing that's really interesting is that I had a Gen Z panel a few years ago where I met with Gen Z data from a few different countries over six months. And they're so pragmatic. I mean, obviously I'm making generalizations, but they're really pragmatic. They're really focused on, I don't know, just like the realities of the world. And so I found them to be less of the romanticizers. But then when we did our surveys at hinge and these are huge surveys, we're talking about, you know, 30,000 hinge data, every year for multiple different surveys, I found that they're actually more romantic than millennials and that they're more likely to say that they believe that there's one person out there for each of us. And so it's always fun in those situations to feel like, oh, like I got one type of information through these qualitative focus groups, but it was also really interesting to see like even though they're more pragmatic and they're more nihilistic, they also are more romantic. So that's one thing. But then the flip side of that is that compared to millennials, they have a harder time expressing themselves going deep on first dates. They have a greater fear of rejection. And so there's just really interesting paradox where they so want love and they so want that soulmate, but their own fears of rejection and fears of being cringe often hold them. back from being earnest and asking for what they want. Does that concern you as someone who, like, this field is your work, like, that people are so fearful of rejection that they're just not putting themselves out there enough. Like, what is going to happen in the future, you know? Oh, yeah. It scares me all the time. For sure. This is definitely something that I'm talking a lot about. The thing that I've been spreading this year is really this idea of shalom dating. Have you come across that term? I love. I just called myself shalom recently online. And I actually made a video and I said, you know, I figured out why Gen Z hates millennials and it's because we're shalom and they are non shalom. So that's how I, that's the divide I feel. Yeah. I mean, for people listening who don't know what it means. So as opposed to being non shalom, acting disinterested or pretending that you don't care, shalom dateers are willing to be vulnerable. They're willing to be rejected and they put in visible effort. And so we are seeing the rise of shalom dating at Hinge. We found that over the last year, there's a 217% increase in people searching for that term. And I found on TikTok so many videos where people are like, "Shalom me down and I want my shalom guy." And it's across generations. I don't, you know, I understand what you're saying about the millennial versus Gen Z divide. And I think that that's true in many places. But what I'm finding is that for Gen Z, dateers who haven't seen shalom dating, they're like, wait, I'm sick of playing games. I actually want to year it and I want you to yearn for me. And so I think we're seeing a generational backlash where more Gen Z dateers are really looking for that kind of effort. Maybe it's just happening kind of organically as they're growing up and realizing, you know, when you're a teenager and you're kind of younger and being non shalom is cool, maybe that's just, we're just kind of watching them grow up online, I guess. That's a theory, that makes sense. Logan Kanasky is like knowing that you'd conduct studies with like, you know, the tens of thousands of people. And Kanasky, like, what's one of the most like surprising things people would find with your research that perhaps they wouldn't have guessed or assumed about some data or patterns that you see with that number of sort of people. Yeah. So one stat that really stuck out to me over the years was around ghosting. So we did a big survey on ghosting a number of years ago and we, you know, talked to people who ghost, who get ghosted and what we found was that when we asked people, would you rather be ghosted or be rejected? 86% of people said, I'd rather that you reject me. It hurts in the moment, but at least I know where I stand. It's like closure, right? Yeah, it's closure. It's clarity. It's like, there is that paying of pain when you're rejected. It's like, Ouch, like you met me. You evaluated me. You found me not good enough. Like of course that hurts, but then you can move on. I think it's so much more painful when people are sitting around like, well, maybe she's busy and she'll get back to me later or, you know, it's only been a week and they just don't know where they stand and it prevents them from maybe getting interested in somebody else. And that's why I think being really clear and kind in your communication is so important and it doesn't have to be a novel. You can just text someone, especially after a first date and say, Hey, it was great meeting you. I just don't feel a romantic connection. Like you don't have to give them feedback. You don't have to have a long conversation, but I do think you owe them insight into how you feel. What would you suggest speaking of that, I totally agree and I actually have two of my best friends who are in the dating market. They are very good at that. If they're not, if they don't find the romantic spark, they always message that they don't like ghosting. But what I would say is that one experience recently that the girl came back and essentially said, like, I disagree, like I thought it went really well, like what, like, and she sort of asked like follow ups, like, what were your issues? Like be specific. Like, I want to know. So would you suggest like once you've sent the message of like, Hey, it wasn't really for me. Like, thank you. Had a lovely time, but I don't want this to go forward. Do you owe them more in an explanation or do you think you can, you know, leave it at that? I've definitely come across that before. I feel like I've seen sort of two versions of this. One is the person asked for feedback and the other one is the person then insults them. It's almost like you bruised their ego. So then they come back and they're like, well, I didn't like you either and you did these things. I mean, in general, I think it's best to kind of eject at that point. I don't mean like goes them then, but I just wouldn't engage because you're not an expert on that person. You only went on one or two dates with them and you only know your experience. So let's say somebody said something racist or somebody was 40 minutes late. Sure. You could say like, Hey, by the way, when you were late, it made me feel disrespected. I just have found in my experience that those conversations don't go that well. You then start telling people feedback. The other person gets defensive. Then you are in this uncomfortable situation that you didn't ask for. And so I'd say I wish we lived in a culture where people could receive feedback better, but dating is so personal and so sensitive that I unfortunately haven't found that when my clients give someone feedback at ends well. And so I think you owe it to somebody to end it and to just say, Hey, I'm not interested, but I don't think you owe them that feedback. Yeah, that's good to know because he didn't provide the extra feed. I'll let him know what it had in hand. I think that he just left it like he was like, look, I said, and he even actually sent me the message that he sent her. And he was like, you think I need to say more or do you think I need to provide? And I said, no, I thought what you said was like really polite, really kind. And like it was very definitive, you know, it wasn't like, Hey, I'm open to maybe you convincing me and we can go on another day. You know, it was very nice, very polite. And it was kind of just it ended, you know, and I said, no, I think you're you're right with leaving it there. You know, I wish that we lived in a world where people could say, Hey, I don't think you're the right person for me, but you might be the right person for this other person. But you should know that you showed up this way. But I just don't think that that's the world we live in. And I think that would also require a lot of emotional maturity from the person receiving it and a lot of perceptiveness from the person giving the feedback. I just don't think that that's what the average date looks like. Logan, I'd love to know when people meet someone on a on hinge, for example, and they've started talking, would you suggest they stay on the app and get to know one another a little bit better? Or would you suggest that they hop off the app straight away and go have a date straight away? Like what is the right amount of time that you would recommend that people spend kind of talking on the app first? Well, what does the research show? Yeah, let me tell you about that. So at Hensley, have looked into this. So there's two stats that I can give you. So one is that when you match with someone, you should send a message as soon as possible because your best chance at getting a response is within 24 hours of matching with someone. And so this isn't a time to play it cool. This isn't a time to say, well, let's see who matches who messages first. It's like, you're just trying to stand out to someone. And one of the best ways to do that is to show effort and to send that message quickly. And then after a few back and forth messages, you can move to texting, which is a common way that people kind of move off the app or you can immediately go to an in person date setting that up or even a FaceTime date. I feel like that's getting more and more common because people are like, my time is valuable. And I maybe they have to get a babysitter or they have to travel and they just want to know like, do we have stuff in common and can we get along? So they do a quick vibe check FaceTime. I didn't even know that was a thing. Yeah, I think it started during the pandemic, but now it's pretty common, especially for people where it's like, as I said, like a bit more effort for them to meet up because sometimes you'll hear people say like, as soon as we met, like I knew they weren't for me. And I'm like, well, could you have done a FaceTime where you got to know them a bit more? And could you have kind of vibe checked that way? And then the other shot I can give you is that three days of chatting after you match is the sweet spot for scheduling a date. So that's probably shorter than a lot of people think. Because it's enough time to kind of get to know you, build that foundation of trust, see that you have a few things in common. But it's not so long that the momentum drops off. And really, I always promote the idea for people that you're not on hinge to get a pen pal. You're on hinge to meet someone and then quickly move to that in person date to see what your connection is like in real life. And don't waste too much time going back and forth for weeks and then meeting up and deciding that you're not a fit. Instead you should meet up with someone quickly, see if you want to move forward. And if not, you can put that energy towards someone else. What would you say to the women who were waiting for the men to message first or to create the date? I would say that playing it cool is not the most effective strategy in online dating. You're competing against other people. You're competing in a kind of attention based world out there. And people have a lot of stuff going on. And so if you're overthinking who messages first, I think instead you should put that effort towards proactively sending likes, sending comments, sending the first message. So many guys are so happy to get that attention and so happy to get that signal that you're interested. And also when you proactively like someone on hinge or send that comment, you're teaching the algorithm who you're interested in. And so when I meet women or coaching clients who say like, I'm not getting any matches, I'm not meeting anyone. And then I look at their phones, I'm like, but you're not going after anyone. And they're like, well, he should chase me. And I was like, I think that's that attitude is from an outdated playbook and that there's plenty of time for a guy to pursue if that's what you're into, but that shouldn't hold you back for messaging someone. I found, so Chad was, I would say, the person who came up to me when we first started chatting and getting to know each other and I actually found it really, really attractive, like I found the confidence really attractive. So I think perhaps women would be surprised to know that yeah, men would also find it quite attractive and alluring if they're pursued as well. So it's not just, I'm sure it's not just one sided. Yeah, that's a great story because I think a lot of people here, a lot of people listening might think, oh well, if you approach them on or if you go after them, like you're more desperate or you're giving them all the power, I just don't think it has to be the case. I think that you could be really confident and that somebody could be attracted to that instead of thinking that you're desperate, they're thinking, wow, that person really knows what she wants. Yeah, exactly. And I think we, there was a stat in an episode we did a few weeks back, which it was like something like 85% of women say that confidence is like the number one thing they look for in a man and they find it most attractive. And then I just thought to myself, I'm sure that is, like, goes both ways, you know, like if I, I found her confidence very attractive and I'm sure that, you know, a lot of people would, would, would feel the same about it. But I'm, Logan, I just wanted to touch again on, you told, you explained and have talked us through maximizers, but I've also, through your work, seeing you use the word, Satisfyser with dating. And I was just wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that because I found it quite interesting and how you would help someone move away from being a maximizer into being a Satisfyser. Sure. So there is this concept that I did not come up with it in psychology called Maximizers and Satisfysers. And Satisfyser is a portmanteau, so a created word from two different words, which are Satisfy and Suffice. And I'll explain them because a lot of times when I say this, people here, Satisfyser, and they think someone who's settling and that's not what it's about. So a Maximizer is somebody who's always looking, who always feels like there could be something better out there, who feels like they need to turn over every stone and see every possible option before they make a decision. And that even when they find a great option, they think, well, that exists, something better might exist. The opposite of that is a Satisfyser. This is a person who sets a bar, let's say they say, I want to buy a used car, it needs to be under this amount, it needs to have these features, and I really want it to be read. Once they find something that Satisfysers, those demands, then they say, great, I'll take it. They don't say, well, now that I found it, I should look for that, but cheaper, I should look for that, but in a convertible. And so what we find in the research is that Maximizers think that they make better decisions, but really Satisfysers are happier about their decisions because they found something great, they took it or in dating, you know, they met some in great, they committed to them and they built from there. And so what matters more, is it making the right in quotes decision or is it about feeling happy about your decision? And Satisfysers really feel much happier because they're not settling, they're not doing something that doesn't hit their criteria, but once they find that, they accept it and they're not always trying to get something better. So if someone came into your practice and you recognize them as a maximizer, and obviously that's probably not long-term beneficial for relationship success, how do you help them sort of transition to be more of a Satisfyser? It's hard. I mean, similar to what I was saying earlier about romanticizers, they don't want to give up on their soulmate and they don't want to give up on the fantasy and if their parents met in high school, they want that for themselves. For the romanticizers, I have to sort of convince them, I know, sorry, for the maximizer. For the maximizer, I say, I know that you feel like doing things this way is going to get you the better option, but what you really want is to find a great relationship and I want to shift your mindset from you have to find the perfect person to you have to build the perfect relationship or build a great relationship. And so for them, I often talk about the people they've dated in the past and for many people, there is someone that they dated who they could have been in a great relationship with and they rejected them for one reason or another and helping them understand that you're probably not going to go on infinite dates and as you get older, it does get harder. And so the next time that you find someone who you like as much as that person, commit to them and try to make it work. And so I really try to rewire their brain and really help them identify this blind spot that they have a false notion that if they keep searching, they're going to get a better result when really the people that get the best results are the people that find some a great commit to them and build that relationship. I think that is really interesting and I'm sure hearing that would help a lot of a lot of maximizes out there. It takes time, but I try. Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine. Now Logan, what does I actually want to ask this question because I think Jad's a firm believer of the soulmate. But I know you've done some research into like chemistry and the spark and the soulmate. So can you yeah, maybe talk a little bit about what you found about that sort of those concepts and ideas. Yes. So I told you the idea that Gen Z are actually more romantic than millennials and more interested in the idea of a soulmate, more they believe in it more, but something that's become a personal priority for me is helping people overcome this idea of the spark, the instant chemistry or the fireworks that people are looking for in dates. And the truth is that the spark is great. It feels amazing when you meet someone and you really hit it off, but so many couples that are now in really happy relationships didn't start out that way. And a lot of couples that broke up or ended up getting divorced did start out with the spark. And so I like to talk about the three myths of the spark. So the first one is that if you don't feel the spark at the beginning, you'll never feel it, which isn't true. The spark grows over time for a lot of people. Some people just take longer to warm up. The second one is that if you feel the spark, then it's definitely a good thing. That's also not true. Sometimes that spark you feeling is actually anxiety where you're saying to yourself, I don't know if he likes me or not. I don't know if he's going to call me back or it could be that the person's just really handsome or even a bit narcissistic. That can make us feel like we have the spark with some of them. And then the third one is that if the relationship has a spark at the beginning, it's going to last. And that's also not true. A lot of people get into the wrong relationship because it started out the quote unquote right way. Is the spark really just like in a very vast immediate attraction? The way that people use it colloquially, I think it is. It's when people are like as soon as I met them, I felt a connection. And it's often, you know, hormones are you're just immediately sexually attracted to them? Are you feel like there's something between the two of you? It's right. It's really about that dynamic that you're creating. And so I'm not saying that the spark is bad. Like I love feeling the spark. I'm just helping people know that when you're dating for long-term relationships, sometimes it can lead you astray. And if you don't have it, it doesn't mean that it can't build over time. Some people are just slow burns where it really takes them time to warm up. Sometimes you got to hit the flint over the fire a few times, not just that first time. That was beautiful. Logan, I feel blessed that you got to hear that analogy. So, buddy, I love seeing your relationship. Logan, with your, you said you had clients where they would say to you, you know, like I'm not getting any matches. And you said, you know, it has to do with you essentially not giving people a chance and whatnot. But are there any, are there any small tweaks that you suggest people making to their profiles, which you've noticed in your research have like disproportionately, you know, large effects to the success of them? Yes, I gave some of my best tips for the Jews and don'ts, but truly the photos matter a lot. It's like, of course, I wish I could say like what people write is more important. But at the end of the day, people really do look at photos and then based on that to side, you know, if they're interested and if they want to engage and read more. And so getting great photos, investing in good photos, doesn't have to be expensive. You could just go out with a friend and have them use their iPhone and portrait mode or as your friend did ask people to take pictures of you on a trip. And so I've just seen people's profiles where I'm like, this doesn't look like you or these photos are really outdated or these are all photos of you hiking because those are the photos you have, but you don't even love hiking. And so really, I think just investing in photos, people know they're important, but they might be even more important than people think. Do you think many people do exactly that? Like essentially they make a profile based on what they think people might like. And then they essentially attract the wrong person because if you're putting up photos of hiking and stuff and you're not a hiker, then you're going to attract someone who is a hiker and then you're going to have misaligned interests. Yes, I've seen it happen both ways. I've seen, I'll just use an example of a client, I had a client I had who was like, oh, I really want to be with a very, you know, outdoorzy guy. So I'm going to post these photos of me hiking that I happen to do on a work trip. And then I'm like, that's not you. You wouldn't enjoy hiking with a guy. You're attracting the right type of person. And we updated her profile to be much more her, which was, you know, drinking whiskey at fancy bar is in Traveling Upper Lynn and that helps you meet someone who is more aligned with who she actually is. And I've seen the other situation, which is, I heard this story from a woman who's married, that she saw her now husband on hinge, and all of his photos were from Burning Man. And she was like, "Um, not that into Burning Man. "He kind of seems to be like a party boy "all about this one thing." And so she said, "No." And then month later, she met him through mutual friends, and it turns out he had only been to Burning Man once. He wasn't that into it. It just so happened that that's when he had photos of himself. - Cool. - And so he just didn't realize, like he was coming across as very one note, in a pretty intense circumstance, where someone would make assumptions about you, and it was truly just what he had in his photo library. - And you know, if you put a photo of just a dog, someone might think you're a dog, so. (laughing) - Do you remember that old joke on the internet? Nobody knows you're a dog. (laughing) - No, but I can imagine Jadda. - That was a good meme. - Now they do, yeah. (laughing) - I'll be no. Logan, you've really covered a lot of ground, and I think our listeners are gonna be stoked to hear this conversation, so. - Yeah, thanks so much, Logan. - Thank you so, so much for carving out the time out of your very busy and very impressive life to chat to us. We very much appreciate it. - And Logan, if-- - It was fantastic. Yeah, thank you. - If our listeners wanted to find a little bit more from you or access any of your work, or your book, for example, where would you like us to send them? - Great, yeah, they can go to my website to learn about matchmaking and coaching. They can take that quiz for the three dating tendencies. And of course, they should download hinge so that they can meet the love of their life. - Stunning. - Thank you so much. - Thank you so much. - Thank you so much. - Thank you so much. - We really appreciate it, and hopefully we can have another chat in the future. - Yeah, thanks for having me, and it was great to hear about all of your insights and what you've seen in your own lives and through the podcast. - Have a lovely day. - Thanks, Logan. - Thanks so much, bye. (upbeat music) - All right guys, our last one, my dad says, "A while back, a few friends and I all made dating profiles on a few apps and agreed we'd all share funny convos with each other and go on dates and spill tea to the group about our dates." My friends are often sending screenshots of silly and weird text threads and the occasional date story, but I genuinely barely get any matches and the ones that do match me never turn into anything more than a few messages. I always get embarrassed and change the subject when my friends ask me for my stories. What do you think I'm doing wrong? - I feel like we would have just touched on that, hey. - Yeah, I mean. - Logan said, you gotta make sure your photos are the right photos, right? That you're putting out the right kind of messaging, not just using the photos that you have already in your repertoire and also making sure that there's a variety and then making sure that you're selling yourself, right? Like you've got to talk about who you are a little bit and like what you like to do and be funny. - Yeah, I mean, maybe just have a look over your profile after listening to the episode and maybe, yeah, you can probably have a think about how you can improve it. But also-- - Maybe look at it, yeah, go on. - I think the best thing, like there's no rush in finding someone, right? I understand you, other friends might be getting more matches, but it doesn't mean they're having more success in dating. Like it only takes one match to go well to then have a successful relationship. So don't be too hard on yourself because you're not getting a playthrough of matches. That's a silly way. - She wants matches, so for the group chat, for the GC. - Yeah, but that's a horrible way of looking at dating, wanting the matches so you can send it to your group chat. Just be patient, but I would say the, what kind of stuck out to me in that last chat was when she's saying like don't pretend that you're something that you're not on your profile because you're not going to track the right person. So I think you really need to be authentic and don't guess what people are looking for and like put out the concept or idea of you that you think people want, but just be yourself, be genuine. If you like playing video games as a girl and you think that's a bit niche and that guys might not like that, who cares? - I have a better idea. - Be yourself. - I'm a better idea. - Yeah, okay, go on. - This is a good idea, but also I feel like if you want, if you're looking for hits specifically, like you want people to be messaging you, you need a prompt on your profile. That's going to lure them in. - Message me please. - No, something that's a bit cheeky. It's kind of like, if you're posting a video online and you want people to engage with it, you need to write something on the video that you know people are going to, they can't help but comment about their own experience. - She needs to rage bait her. - She needs to man bait. Yes, she needs to say something on her profile that's going to require men to go actually, maybe it's cheeky and it's them correcting her and something that she's put on there, right? - Exactly. - I don't know, like write something about the oil going in the wrong place in your engine or something in your car. (laughing) That's a really bad example. Or being like, you know. - Do you mean purposely say something to her? - My favorite, my favorite baseball athlete is, and then just put the wrong, you know, put a guy from a different sport. Exactly, so people go, you know that Lon, Rillabron James is actually a basketball player. And then she's going to go, yeah, of course I know that. I just wanted you to message me. Wow. - Yeah, but then that's, yeah, we're-- - Wait, this truck goes. - But what if you just get a hundred people wanting to tell you that you're an idiot and then move on to the next one? - It doesn't matter, you need an open eye. It's about having people message you and then you get to show them who you are and you know, show them your personality a bit more. - So you're trying to help this girl. - Get them in. - You're trying to help this girl get funny conversations with a group chat. I'm trying to help her get actual-- - Yeah, but the point is she's not getting those initial matches and you need, like, that's going to get the match, right? It's like baiting people a little bit. I feel like it's clever. - Yeah, okay, I don't disagree with that. If you simply want the matches and then the conversation where you can-- - She didn't say she's not getting-- - She's not getting anywhere with them. She said she's just not getting matches. - No, she said that after a few messages, it's not turning into anything more. - Okay, still. - Yeah, okay. But I agree that doing something like that might get her more conversations, but it's about, I think she was more struggling turning them into, like, real dates. - Why don't people need to go like, banter school? - No, maybe you're like-- - I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna start banter school. - Yeah, also-- - I feel like this is a good idea. A million dollar a business banter school. How do I have banter? - It would be million dollar business depending on the sign-ups, so just hold your horses there. - I've won sign-up, $1 million. - Okay, there you are, paying yourself. We're going into debt, so you feel good? Yeah, I mean, it's a tough one. How are you gonna get more in-person dates? But I would suggest maybe, like, before talking for too long, like, suggesting getting it off the app as soon as possible. So I think what Logan said was, like, three days of talking, but that's not to say that you couldn't, like, the first couple of messages be like, "Hey, I'm free, let's go get a coffee or something." Oh, let's-- - Is that what she's asking, though? I thought she just wanted more chats. - No. It says what I'm doing wrong, but she's having chats. She's saying it doesn't turn into more. Do you-- when I read out the moment, "Dad's, do you listen?" - I feel like I'm misunderstood. I thought it was like, she just wants to have a good time. And people aren't engaging with her. I think she wants to convert the chats into, like, in-person hangouts. - Okay. - So that people really get a feel for it. 'Cause I totally understand that, how are you gonna get a grasp of who someone is? And, like, you know, you can't tell tone over text messages. You can't tell if someone has banned. - God, if honestly, you had no tone in text messages. Not nothing. - Well, there you go. So if we had them met in person. - Love was the worst text I got to tell you guys. I'm sure I've said it before. Horrible, horrible text bands. Like, I felt like he hated me. And then I'd seen completely different person. Lockwood sent me thumbs up. That would be his response to, like, a whole message. I'll send him that. That's the whole message is the thumbs up emoji. - Yeah, 'cause if I was-- - Okay, you obviously hate me. - No, 'cause if I was working, which I would work from, like, 5am to 3am someday. Like, I just have no time. And if you were like, I'll see you at 2am, I'll be at your house. I'll just send you a thumbs up, like, no worries. I'll see you then. - No, you send thumbs up at, like, 12pm. - Okay, here we go, guys. We hear about this on the way home. Yeah, I don't know. I would say my suggestion would be try to get off the app as soon as possible, maybe just, like, before chatting and like, who knows? Maybe you're not a good textor. I don't know, maybe you're like me. And you maybe-- - Send them up. - People feel like they're, like, you're a bit dry or they're not getting much. So maybe just try to take it off the app as soon as possible. And that would be my suggestion for getting more in person. - In person. - Yeah, see what your friends are doing that's making the chat flow and kind of copy that little bit. - Yeah, or just do rage batting, like, chat suggested. - Man-bate. - Guys, that's all we have for you. - We enjoyed that episode. I really enjoyed talking to her. So I hope you guys enjoyed learning a little bit and for those of you who are on hinge, for example, and using the dating apps, perhaps you can put some of this into practice and let us know if it gathers you any extra success. I hope you enjoyed the episode. We love you, we appreciate you and I look forward to chatting to you already next week. - Thanks for listening. - Bye. - Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]