Are Electric Cars Really Better for the Climate?

(upbeat music) - Welcome to How to Save a Planet. I'm Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. - And I'm Alex Bloomberg. This is the podcast where we're talking about what we need to do to address the climate crisis and how we make those things happen. (upbeat music) - So, it's been quite a week. - Oh, boy, is it ever? I feel like I have an emotional hangover from this election stuff. - I don't know what I'm gonna do now that I'm not constantly refreshing vote tally websites. - Yeah, so even though the winners have been called, we're still trying to understand like exactly what happened in the election and what role climate might have played. So more on that later. - More on that later and we have a Biden administration that is settling into place. And I'm looking forward to using this podcast as a way to dive into what the Biden administration does on climate over the next four years and beyond. - And how that matches up with, you know, what they said that we're gonna do. - Exactly. That's all to come. This week though, we're not gonna be focusing on presidential politics or any of that stuff that's happening in Washington. This week we're focusing on you, our listeners. - Yeah, we thought you might also need a break from this maelstrom of electoral politics. So welcome to our week of counter programming. (laughing) - Today's episode is inspired by you, our listeners, because you guys send us lots and lots of email, which we love getting. You have like comments about episodes. You sometimes you just wanna thank us or like point out things that we got right or wrong. - Yeah, you all are so earnest and sweet and trying to figure out how to do right by the climate. It's really wonderful. - It's great. And a lot of times you ask us questions or you say like, "Hey, could you guys do an episode on this?" - Yeah, and sometimes you all get extremely specific. (laughing) - Exactly. - Which I am totally here for. People are requesting episodes and everything from the role of Pete Lands in carbon sequestration to whether cloud seating is a good idea to how we might scale renewable energy in the Midwest and you know, whether we might have been overlooking the role of Beavers in ecosystem restoration. I mean, don't you wanna know? And we might cover some of that in future episodes. So we do have a whole spreadsheet where we track your requests and recommendations. - Literally. - There is a spreadsheet. - You're not lying, we literally have a spreadsheet where we put every single request for a show topic in the spreadsheet. And so we take it really seriously. But on today's episode, we're gonna answer one question that's come up multiple times. And in this case, in the case of the listener who wrote in, it's causing some minor relationship disputes. - And because we care deeply about the quality of your romantic relationships, today we're gonna help resolve a couple's disagreement over what kind of car to buy. - It's how to save a planet meets love line, meets car talk. - Oh, so we have these messages. (laughing) - This is the band diagram I did not know I was wanting. (laughing) (upbeat music) - So in today's episode, we're answering one question that came from a couple of listeners. - And here to help us answer this question is our reporter Rachel Waltoz. Hi, Rachel. - Hi, guys. - So, Rachel, what do you have for us today? What you got? - Well, we got a great question from a couple of listeners in Germany, which is also where I'm based. And they sent us an email earlier this fall. So I called them back to have them explain their question and I'll let them introduce themselves. - Okay, I'm Amy. - I'm an animator and we live in Berlin. - They were a little nervous. - I should start over again. (laughing) - I'm Amy, I'm an animator. - I'm Harry, I'm a working butterfly. I'm from the UK, from Cambridge. - And I'm from New Jersey. - Oh. - Didn't see that coming. - Jersey girl. - Yeah, we met in London about six, seven years ago and then moved to Berlin three years ago. - So that's Amy Bogeyne and Harry Bishop. And their question is about electric vehicles or EVs for short. Specifically, should they buy one? They don't actually own a car at the moment. They live here in Berlin, which is pretty easy to get around using public transit or a bike or just walking. And Harry is from the UK, as he mentioned, is actually never owned a car. But Amy comes from New Jersey, which is also my ancestral homeland. And she was like, let's be real at some point, we're gonna have to own a car. And they're sort of thinking about moving out of the city and so they have this argument over like, what is the most environmentally friendly option? - Right. And my thought was that we should get an electric car by a new one that's like top of the line and doesn't emit any CO2 in any way. Yeah, but Harry's argument is, do you want to explain? - Yeah, well. - This is so charming. - Obviously, there's quite a lot of environmental cost that goes into making a brand new car. And like loads of like rare materials that get used to like fully computer stuff. And obviously, maybe it's better to just buy an old car because we wouldn't use it very often anyway. And yeah, I guess it also depends on how renewable the country we live in, how renewable their energy is. 'Cause if we're just plugging in and it's coming from a coal plant anyway, I guess but it's still not environmentally friendly. - Right. - Good point, Harry. Like how much of a benefit do you get from an electric car if you're plugging it into a grid that's powered by coal? - Exactly. - Yeah, there's so many things to consider with this. - And I should mention this thought process of like weighing all the environmental pros and cons. They said they go through this thought process a lot for so many things. - We basically talk about all the time. (laughing) - Jamie is very passionately interested in all of this stuff. - I worry about it a lot. I just like, I was reaching a point where I couldn't buy, I think I couldn't go into a shop without stressing and just completely freezing up every item I held thinking, should I be doing this or should I not even be doing this or every item. For example, in the store, you know, like with butter or like vegetarian trying to be vegan and the option for vegan butters in plastic container, whereas the non-vegan option is in paper. And then I just sit there thinking, oh my gosh, which one is the right one? Like which one is less environmentally impactful every time? - I can so relate to this. - I know, it would be so nice to have some way to know if I'm making the right decisions when I buy things. I just wanna do the right thing. I just love that sentiment, like I just wanna do the right thing. - So earnest, so relatable. And while we cannot solve all of those consumer conundrums, we can tackle this one big question for them. You know, what kind of car should they buy? - I'm so glad we're talking about this because I recently bought an electric car and-- - So did I, we both are proud electric vehicle owners. (laughs) - Like I didn't actually do all this research and answer all the questions that Amy and Harry are asking. So I can't wait to hear the answers. - Yet one more benefit of hosting a podcast about the climate. - Hopefully retroactive validation are in both purchases. - Exactly. - So I called up a couple experts to see if I could get some clear answers about electric vehicles for Amy and Harry and at least put their minds at ease on like this one question. Amy and Harry had asked, which is better? A new electric vehicle or a used conventional gas car that you buy in your neighborhood? And we will get to that exact question, but just because we've gotten similar questions from a bunch of listeners, I first just wanted to ask the basic question. Comparing apples to apples, a new electric vehicle and a new conventional gas powered car. Is an electric vehicle really better for the climate? And is that always true? And I sort of expected this to be a question with lots of variables and trade-offs, you know, depending on the grid where you live and the type of car. But this is the answer I got. So I think it's very clear for my findings actually, our range of other studies have been done in the serie. Electric vehicles be they fully electric vehicles, petrol electric, plug-in hybrids, or fuel cell electric vehicles are unquestionably better for our climate than conventional cars. There should be absolutely no doubt that looking from a full life cycle analysis. - Wow. - I am so relieved. (laughing) I thought it was gonna be like, surprise. You're just a sucker who fell for the hype. (laughing) - So but that's a pretty unequivocal answer. That was more unequivocal than I thought. I thought that was gonna be a little bit more trade-offs. - Yeah, I did too. But Nicholas Hill, he's the guy who just said there should be no doubt. He knows what he's talking about. 'Cause he and his team just completed this giant two-year assessment, looking at exactly this question. He works for Ricardo. It's a global consulting firm. And they were asked to do this study by the European Union. And basically they asked, you know, if you look at electric vehicles and compare them with internal combustion engines. And you look at them from the cradle to the grave. So from the mining or extracting of resources through manufacturing, through actually driving the vehicle and then disposal, where do you come out? And basically their conclusion was that the environmental impact of electric vehicles is significantly less, even across a wide range of circumstances. Even this question that Harry had, what if you're plugging into a grid with a lot of fossil fuels? Hill and his team looked at that and he said they were surprised by how much of a benefit there still is. - So even in areas where there is significant coal, you'll get a better saving. Now, there are a lot of factors that affect that. And we did a whole range of different sensitivities, looking at the various different aspects of usage, battery sizes, the where the batteries produced, looked at the lifetime mileage, a whole range of different sensitivities on use patterns. Hill and his colleagues were focused on the European Union. And they found that everywhere in the EU, an electric vehicle would have less emissions than a conventional car, except in Estonia, which currently gets about two thirds of its electricity from coal. So they said there, if you're on a grid, that's two thirds coal. Okay, then you might see more emissions from an electric vehicle. But in a place like Germany, which still has significant coal on its grid, you're seeing something like 40% less emissions from an electric vehicle. And Germany is the closest equivalent within the EU to sort of the energy mix in the US in terms of how much coal is on the grid. - Wow. - It's very clear that EVs have do better for the climate. And also, there's benefits are expected to increase in the future as the electricity-credit carbonizes and also as manufacturing decarbonizes in general battery technology improves. - I am so glad that it is this clear. - I know, right? Now, Hill did say there is one part of the life cycle where conventional gas-powered cars do better than electric vehicles. And that's when they're being built. Because producing the batteries for electric vehicles is a really energy-intensive process, which leads to higher greenhouse gas emissions than manufacturing a conventional car. But that's just one part of the life cycle. And it's outweighed over time by the actual use of the vehicle, because driving an electric vehicle generates so much less in the way of emissions. And there are two big reasons why electric vehicles have lower emissions. The first is they're powered by the electric grid, not by fossil fuels. And as we add more and more renewable energy to our electric grids, they emit less and less in the way of greenhouse gases. - So it's like this virtuous cycle, right? Where the cleaner the grid gets, the cleaner your electric car gets. Whereas with a gas car, it's just always gonna stay dirty no matter how clean the grid ends up getting. - Right, and then the second reason that electric vehicles have lower emissions, even in places that still have significant fossil fuels on the grid is because the electric engine is actually just more efficient than the internal combustion engine. So you're wasting less energy in the process of running the car. - Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, a gas powered car is literally like a series of controlled explosions happening inside the engine block. And some of the energy from those explosions is moving the pistons up and down, which moves the car. But a lot of that energy is wasted. It's just making the engine really hot. And then you have to spend more energy to make the hot engine cooler and all that energy that you're heating the engine and cooling it down with, that's wasted energy. - Right, exactly. - But I do have one question, Rachel, because, you know, Amy and Harry, they weren't talking about a new electric car versus a new gas powered car. They were asking about a used gas powered car. - Yeah, so I put that question to Nick Hill and here's what he said. - I'm not sure. It's really the right question in some ways. Clearly he wants a car as new and manufactured and purchased. Then the impacts of that stage are then locked in until the end of the life of the vehicle. So what is important then is, is that with that particular vehicle is used in the most efficient way until he reaches the end of his life. I mean, maybe better way to phrase the question, you know, actually think about it. There are a lot of more EVs already in the vehicle park now. So it's actually why not consider buying a second-hand electric car instead and help to mine the drive demand for these EVs. - That's a great alternative. - There you go. - I'm into it. So Hill is basically suggesting a way for both Amy and Harry to be right, you know? He says, yes, you should probably get an electric vehicle, but get a used one, if you can. And when I called Amy and Harry back, they were pretty pleased with that answer. - Yeah, that's true. - Yeah, that's a good idea. Thanks, Nick. - I mean, it's so good to hear, it's like, I've kind of always wanted an electric vehicle. I don't know, they seem so cool. One day in the future. That's what we're going to get. - Yeah, definitely. - I kind of thought that there would just be no answers or no easy answers. It's like really cool to get peace of mind on an issue that... - Yeah, there's at least one small thing which we just know for a fact now, so. - It feels good. When you're constantly thinking of like climate crisis and how you're like a part of it, it's good to know like one exact thing. - It's so nice when there is an answer. - Yeah, an easy and clear one. - And the answer you wanted. - Also that. When you get the answer, you were hoping was the answer. That's the best. - It was the best. So I'm really glad that we could help Harry and Amy answer this question. - Yeah, another satisfied listener. - So it seems clear that in terms of the climate, in terms of carbon emissions, buying an electric vehicle is better than the alternative, is better than buying a gas car. Even if the gas car is used. But I've heard a lot of questions about like the other environmental impacts of electric cars. Specifically, I've heard there's a lot of environmental problems with the batteries that power these cars. - Oh yeah, this is absolutely worth talking about. - Yeah, so there are big concerns about electric vehicle batteries and specifically about some of the materials that go into making the batteries, which are only found in certain parts of the world. And there are big issues with both the environmental impact, but also with human rights abuses in the way that those materials are mined. So like, for instance, in Chile, lithium mining is using up a huge amount of water resources in a really dry region and that's threatening local farmers. And the UN has reported on human rights abuses and even child labor at cobalt mines in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. So those are not small, right? Those are really big issues that the industry needs to solve so that the transition to electric vehicles doesn't come at the cost of some of the world's most vulnerable people. - Yeah, absolutely. And this rush to produce more batteries is also a driver of the desire to expand mining to the deep sea in places that we don't even understand yet what the ecological effects would be. So this whole deep sea mining thing is unsurprisingly really concerning to me. - And I think it's important though to compare the negative effects of these batteries and the mining that goes into making them with fossil fuel extraction, which also has a bunch of serious issues with that as well, right? - Yeah, of course. I mean, the extraction, refining, and burning of fossil fuels leads to all kinds of environmental and public health problems. And when I raised the issues around batteries specifically with Nicholas Hill, he told me that it's really important to put those problems into context and weigh them against the much bigger problems associated with fossil fuels and global warming. - Even if you were just to consider the issue of climate change, I think the extent of the global impacts on both humans and the environment is just so huge in scale that the benefits of electrification and electric vehicles really outweigh some of the other smaller concerns. It doesn't mean you forget about them. The tension needs to be on the kind of addressing those issues and making sure that they are minimized as far as possible. And he'll said there's just a ton of research right now looking at ways to minimize those problems. Everything from reducing the use of materials like cobalt to finding whole new ways to make batteries. And while there's no guarantee, he says he's really optimistic based on how quickly the battery industry has evolved just in the last five or 10 years that they'll be able to come up with some solutions. - That's great. We like solutions. - Well, and one potential solution is actually better recycling, which would both reduce waste and also potentially limit the amount of new materials that need to be mined. The European Union is actually working to develop a set of regulations to govern exactly this. And try to push the auto and tech industries to innovate and make batteries with less of an environmental footprint. - We also like good policy. - So to recap, it sounds like what you're saying, Rachel, is that electric vehicles are in fact better than gas from a climate perspective, from an overall environmental perspective in pretty much every instance, unless maybe you live in Estonia. - But I think it's also important to add, like the answer isn't that everyone should like run out and go buy an electric vehicle. - Right, like that's not the sole answer anyway. - Right, exactly. An expert say that electric vehicles can play a big role in cutting emissions from transportation, but they're definitely not a silver bullet. That said, they are a big part of our greenhouse gas emissions. In the US, transportation is responsible for 28% of greenhouse gas emissions, and more than half of that comes from passenger vehicles. So we need to reduce emissions from passenger vehicles, both by having lower emission vehicles and by finding alternatives to individual vehicles to get around. So that means investing in public transit, bike infrastructure, pedestrian infrastructure. - Bike lands, bullet trends. - High-speed rail, please. - So important. - Pretty please, I want it so bad. (laughs) - Yes, all of those as alternatives to just driving yourself around in your personal car. - Right. - But when you are driving around in your personal car, better, if it's an electric car. - I think this is the hard part about all of these climate solutions that we talk about, is that we really need all of them. - Right, yeah. - The challenge is we need electric cars and we need better public transit and we need more bike lanes and we need to transform the grid off of fossil fuels and we need more efficient buildings and all of it at once. And so I think I don't say that to sort of overwhelm people, but to say, you know, how can we multitask or each pick one solution and contribute to it in some way? We don't all have to do everything, but we should each do something. - Yeah, and I think also there's some sort of like, helpful power in that way of thinking about it. I don't think it's actually overwhelming. I think it actually sort of takes some of the burden off the decision where you're just sort of like, isn't making it better or not? And if it's making it better in some way, then do it 'cause we need lots of things that are making it better and there's not gonna be one perfect solution that's gonna be the answer. There's gonna be lots and lots of incremental decisions that are all moving in the right direction. And this is one of them. But even if driving an electric vehicle is solidly and definitely better for the climate, is it better for you? - Yeah, let's get down to the selfish brass tacks here, huh? It's driving an EV, one of those things that makes you feel all virtuous, but it's actually kind of a pain in the (beep) or is it really better all around? - Coming up what it is actually like to drive an electric vehicle from two people who know. - Us, Alex. - Right. - We both have electric cars. - And we're gonna tell you all about it. - As people who own EVs tend to do, the good, the bad, and the shameful, after the break. - Welcome back. So we've talked about the environmental impacts of electric vehicles, but the thing that I think a lot of people worry about when it comes to buying an electric car is like, does it work? You know, is it just like, is it a pain in the (beep) or not? - Right, is it practical? Is it reliable? Will I get stuck in the middle of nowhere when my battery dies? - And these are all questions that I wondered about. I thought an electric car was cool, but not something that I'd want to own because it wouldn't be practical. It wouldn't make sense for my lifestyle as a dad, credit around his kids all the time. But then I actually drove one of my in-laws out in California that they had one and they let us borrow it while we were out there visiting. And it basically turned me into a believer. And now that I've owned one for over a year, I can honestly say the experience of driving one is way different than I ever imagined in the beginning and frankly way better. And I know, and I'm sure you can attest lots of people have questions about what it's like to drive an electric vehicle. So we figured we can probably answer some of those questions. - Yeah, we'll spill our guts to you. - And also Rachel, you're gonna help us with some of the reporting that you've done on electric vehicles. - Yeah, I'll keep you guys honest. - So not just gut spilling, also facts. - Yes, exactly. - Please keep us honest. - Yeah. - Yeah, is this the point where we out you both as Tesla owners, have we told the listeners that yet? - Apparently it is, the moment is now. - It's true, we each own a Tesla and it is really embarrassing to admit, especially I think in my case, because I have a sort of fancy one. - A definitely fancy one. - A definitely fancy one. Podcasting turned out to be an unexpectedly lucrative career for me late in life after a career in public radio. And so I was actually able to afford a nice car, but there's this trade off with the car that I have, which is that I wanted the kind of Tesla that can sit at least six people in order to cart kids and family around. But the only kind of Tesla that was big enough for that had these Falcon doors, you know, the Falcon doors that I'm talking about, like the ones. - Well, I sure do. It's like in the DeLorean from back to the future. - So really subtle, super understated. No one would be like, what is that over there? - There's nothing to do here than pulling up with your kids at school and just be the pile up, kids. It's the worst, I hate it. - And Alex, I thought all electric vehicles were like yours, pretty expensive out of my price range for sure. But when this year I needed a car for the first time in a decade and I started looking into it, I realized they're actually pretty price competitive and I was like, oh, all right, I'm in. - Yeah, you know, and this was one of the things that really surprised me when I was reporting for this episode because I definitely hadn't quite caught up on this, which is that many electric cars are now in the same price range as equivalent gas powered cars, especially when you take into account the full cost of owning the car. So take even Teslas, which are obviously on the high end. You know, the average cost of a new car in the US right now is almost $38,000. And a new Tesla Model 3 might cost about $38,000. Now obviously that is a lot of money but it really surprised me that it was in that range. Oh, for sure, I thought a Tesla was like $200,000. - Yeah, that's right. I thought you were basically buying a spaceship is actually where I was coming from. - All right. - You know, and we should note that when we talk about prices we're including federal subsidies in the US and those can knock thousands of dollars off the price of electric vehicles. So they make a big difference. But also prices are coming down because battery technology is improving and getting cheaper. And as that has happened there's been this explosion of new electric cars on the market. - Right. I was looking at the list and it's like every car company basically has a few electric models now from Nissan and Honda and Toyota and Audi and Ford is making an F-150 pickup truck that's electric, which I think is pretty cool. I've seen an advertisement for like an electric Mustang on television. - An electric Hummer is the thing that's being made. There's like Volvo and Porsche, everyone's doing it. - Yeah, and the prices have been coming down across the board. You know, consumer reports just came out with the study this fall actually. And they found that when you consider the total ownership costs of a car, owning an electric vehicle can often be cheaper than owning an equivalent gas powered car. Now, the upfront purchase price for electric vehicles are usually more than similar gas powered cars. So for instance, a new Honda Civic hatchback might cost about $20,000 and an equivalent electric vehicle like a Nissan Leaf would be about $25,000. But then if you also look at maintenance and fueling costs, those are usually lower over the life of an electric vehicle because they generally require less maintenance and fewer repairs and it's cheaper to charge them at home than it is to buy gas. So how exactly they stack up still depends on where you live and how much electricity costs. But overall, owning an electric vehicle can be cheaper than owning a conventional internal combustion engine car. - Right, and we should say this is not to imply that these cars are universally affordable or cheap for lots of people a new car of any kind is simply out of their price range. - But if you're gonna buy a new car, they're comparable. - Yeah, and that's the point, right? Like a new EV is competitive with the price of a new gas car which is sort of bunkers. And I think I didn't really realize that. And the other things that people worry about with electric vehicles, like the range, like how far can you drive one of these things before you need to recharge it? That's gotten so much better too. - The thing for me is how many miles can you go on a single charge? Mostly because I'm sort of irresponsible, right? And because I live in New York City, where you don't need a car, when I do drive, it's a long drive. So before the pandemic, I didn't have a car 'cause I don't need one, and I'm an environmentalist. But now for visiting my mom who lives over an hour from the nearest public transit and to avoid bringing COVID with me, I started to look into buying a car. And I found out that some electric vehicles can go over 300 miles on a single charge. And that was a total game changer for me. - Well, I was gonna say 'cause you mentioned range and charging. And I think for a lot of people who were thinking about electric cars, like this is a big thing for them, is like how do I charge it? And then am I gonna get stuck in the middle of nowhere without a charge? Like how do you guys charge your cars? - When I'm upstate New York with my mom at the farm, I just literally plug it into a regular outlet in the garage. - Wait, can I ask is it, do you just like, it's just a normal outlet? You don't need like some special charger? - Like a completely regular outlet. Like where at the same place you plug in your laptop and your cell phone to recharge them, you can plug in your car. It really feels really weird. It's really cool though. It just feels like you're getting away with something. - It does. - And you know, if your car's just plugged into the wall in the garage like a lamp, it takes, I don't know, 24 to 36 hours to fully charge. But if you're just driving around town, you're not actually depleting the whole battery. You're driving maybe 20 or 30 miles. And so plugging it overnight is more than enough to charge it back up to where it was. And then if you do go on a longer trip, they have these high speed charging stations where you can fully charge your battery in like, I don't know, 20 to 40 minutes, which is like longer than filling a tank of gas, but not that long, you know, just like get a snack, go to the bathroom, you're done. - Listen to a podcast. - Listen to a podcast. - Do some dummy jacks, stretch your legs. - Exactly. - And this is a big difference from even a few years ago because there is this network of thousands of charging stations now all across the country. So for example, between New York City and upstate New York where my mom lives, there are a dozen or more different charging stations along the way. So I can just pull over when I need to charge and take a break, stretch my legs, and then I'm off again. - Yeah, and looking into this, you know, it's clear that electric vehicles still make the most sense if you're able to charge it at home. You know, it's cheaper, you don't have to wait around while the car charges. And while there is definitely more charging infrastructure in the US than there used to be, most of the country still doesn't have enough to keep up with the projected increase in electric vehicles. Europe is actually doing a little bit better on this count, but it also still needs to build a lot more charging infrastructure as more electric vehicles hit the road. So depending on where you live, the lack of charging infrastructure can be a real downside to electric vehicles. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. - Yeah, you should definitely look at a map before, you know, near where you live or before you buy when I say if there are charging stations that will get you where you need to go. - There's one other point. It's probably important to make. Electric cars are just fun to drive. Because of the way electric motors work, electric cars often accelerate faster. It's really good. - It's so good, in fact, that you will get a speeding ticket the first time you drive your car because it is like a rocket ship. (laughing) I need to go pay that speeding ticket, actually. It's like in the bottom of my purse somewhere. - Because I think a lot of people have the feeling that you and Iana and I had, which is just sort of like, yeah, yeah, but they're not there yet or it's gonna be slightly a hassle or something's, it's not, I'll be having to sacrifice by buying this car. And in fact, the opposite is true. I am now living this reality. I'm living in many ways the future that we need. And I can tell people like this future is better. It's not just like, it's not gonna make do, it's better. - Alex, I feel like what you're saying is we should both be less shy about admitting that we have electric cars. It's more like, come on in, the water's fine. I think of it as an exciting investment in the future, right? 'Cause obviously we're all gonna get off with fossil fuels at some point. Someone has to take the leap and I was like, I'm in. This is a thing I can do to be part of this cool transformation. - Well, that's what I told myself, 'cause I was very ashamed of it and my instinct was, I knew it's like the way that I made fun of you until I got my own. - And the doors, the deal I made with myself was like, I'm gonna stand proudly in front of those stupid (beep) falcon doors. And anybody who comes and talks to me, I'm just gonna talk about how it's an electric car and it's much better. And that's what I'm gonna do with my shame, is try to turn it into action. - And that's pretty much what we just did here on this podcast episode. - It's a big thanks to Rachel for bringing us all this great information on electric vehicles. - Yeah, of course. - And thanks to Harry and Amy for sending in your question. Keep them coming. We love, love, love getting our questions. - Yes, we love your questions. We also love your sweet love notes and other feedback. And you may recall that at the end of the last few episodes, we've asked you to send us voice memos. If you took up any of our recommended actions, to let us know how it went. And a lot of you actually did and they were so great that today for the first but definitely not the last time, we're gonna share some of those messages. - And all these messages they came in response to the episode about refrigerants we did a couple weeks ago. It was called Cold Hard Cash for your greenhouse gas. And one of the resources that we recommended at the end of that episode was a website called Climate Friendly Supermarkets. All right, so let's listen to our first message. - Hi, this is Olivia in New York City and I wanted to let you all know I went on to climatefriendlysupermarkets.org and put in my zip code and I was shocked to see that there are no climate friendly supermarkets in my neighborhood of the lower east side. But what they have on there that is really cool and I wanted to share is a petition where you can say you're a resident and you support businesses that use climate friendly coolants. - No, cool. - Coming to your area and it was really easy to sign and sign up and it took like two minutes and I did it while I was cooking and now I feel great. - Activism, it's addictive. - I just wanted to careful Olivia. - So I just wanted to let you guys know I did it and I enjoyed doing it and if anyone else is questioning whether it's worth the time, it was worth it. - Awesome. - So thank you guys so much. I really love the podcast. Can't wait for the next episode. - Aw, that makes you so happy. - Thanks for calling Olivia. - That's great. That's amazing. - Yeah, check out the website, sign the petition. - We're not just like screaming into the void. - Yeah, I know. - People are listening and then like clicking and doing things. - Exactly, we're doing things together, people. We're not alone. - Sure, listen to another one. - Hi, this is Patrick. - Hi, Patrick. - I am a huge nerd and a bit of an activist when it comes to climate change and refrigerants. And I'm also a licensed professional engineer in the field of heating, ventilation, and air conditioning. - Oh, this is his jam. - During the past year, I gave a presentation on climate friendly refrigerants to a local meetup group. - This is awesome. - Provided public comment supporting a regulation to ban HFC 134A and wrote to my representatives in supportive actions aligned with the Kigali amendment. When you mentioned that there was such an organization as the North American Sustainable Refrigerant Council, I nearly dropped my phone with excitement. Pause the podcast and sign up for their email list within about 20 seconds. I also just signed both petitions supporting HFC free supermarkets and you'd better believe that I am voting for the climate. - Yay, Patrick. - Oh, thank you, Patrick. - This week's speech so happy. - I mean, how often people call you and be like, Kigali amendment, HFC 134A, I'm in, but there was this one thing I didn't know. - I love that there is a listener for whom mentioning Nasric, was there a record scratch moment? - A self-described refrigerant nerd, which I did not know was a subcategory of nerd, but I am obviously so here for that. - Oh, Patrick, thank you so much for calling. That was amazing. Let's listen one more, shall we? - Hi, I'm Anna and Alex. Hi. - Hi. - Just read your newsletter. I got excited that I saw that there was a new episode out of How to Save a Planet. My new favorite podcast. It's like the best pop talk, I love this. - Checked out the climate-friendly supermarkets link and saw that Trader Joe's, my otherwise favorite supermarket in the US, ranked bottom of the list. - Traitor Joe's, am I right? - Actually led me to post on Facebook for the first time in over two and a half years. - Whoa. - Because it finally put me over the edge and gave me some concrete evidence to, you know, start being more vocal on my social media. - Oh, cool. - I have been very diverse to using social media, but if I want to use my voice where my network is going to hear it, then social media is where I'm going to have to put it. So, I posted and it feels a little scary, but good. Feels like I did something worthwhile. And so thank you for giving me some really tangible tools to do that. I appreciate it. - Awesome. - I can't believe that refrigerant management was the thing that got her back on social media to be like, "Everybody, I have something about you." - But I think that's the thing, though, is that I think one of the nice things about like, for me, about doing this show, was just sort of realizing this big, huge, overwhelming, seeming problem of climate change actually has parts in each individual part. - Absolutely. Has individual solutions and they're not overwhelming and they're somewhat simple. It's like literally taking a different gas and putting it on our refrigerators, you know? - The challenge is as she described, it can be really hard to sort of get to the bottom of all of these different topics and solutions on your own. And so, it makes me feel really good that we sort of gave her the solid information that she needed to be like, "Oh, I get it. I'm in, like, team. We gotta do something about this." - I think that is a really meaningful thing to do, especially if you haven't done it before. - Yeah, share some new information with people who probably trust you 'cause you're not just spouting off about a bunch of nonsense on there all the time. - Exactly, but also as, you know, one of the things that I've said this before, and I think it's like really important to keep repeating to people is that one of the most important things that you can do is to not be silent about caring about this issue and expressing your feelings on it. - Totally. - And I think that's even more true when we're talking about a specific solution, right? Like not climate change overall. We should do something about it, but like, there's more of a, did you know, vibe to it, right? Like did you know this thing about refrigerants? - Yeah. - We should do something about that, right? - Yeah. - And here's something we can do as opposed to like, climate change is gonna kill us all. Which is just like, okay, but, you know, what do I do with that? - Yeah, exactly. - So it seems sort of counterintuitive, but like the more we focus on the smaller aspects of it, right, the step-by-step, okay, problem solution, problem solution, what's next? I think those kinds of things are also more exciting to spread the word about it. Almost like some cocktail party facts. - Right. - Did you know that there were all sorts of different kinds of refrigerants and some of them have like, a zero global warming index and some of them are like, times thousands? Shouldn't we pick, we should pick the better ones, right? Do you want to call Trader Joe's with me? (laughing) Is that, that's a crazy setting cocktail party? - I mean, not, not you know what my social life is like. - So for this week, if you want to take action, as always, we have a couple of recommendations for things that you can do. - This is maybe one of the most fun calls to action we've ever recommended. If you are thinking about buying a new car, test drive an electric vehicle, just do it. Check it out. Join us in the future. And if you're interested in how much that would reduce your greenhouse gas footprint, if you swapped from a conventional gas car to an electric vehicle, where you live and where you'd be charging, there are actually a couple of calculators online that will help you figure that out. The union of concerned scientists has one that compares vehicles in the United States. And also the advocacy group, transport and environment, has one for the EU and will link to both of those in our show notes and in our newsletter. And if you do end up taking any of our recommendations from this week's episode or any of the previous episodes, let us know who it goes. - Yeah, let us know who it goes. You can do that by sending an email to how to save a planet at spotify.com. Also, do not forget, subscribe to the newsletter. - Oh, it's so good. - The link is in the show notes. We have all the recommendations plus a couple of pictures behind the scenes, other resources that we link to. - Occasionally, Sassy TikToks is added in there. - And it's a barrel of fun, that newsletter. So subscribe and that's definitely by far the best way to stay in touch and stay aware of all the resources that we have for actions to take. - Barrel of Monkeys in your inbox every week. - Barrel of Monkeys, I just get older every day. - Alex, we all get older every day. Don't worry about it. Lean into your age and your Tesla and let's do this, roll the credits. - How to save a planet is a Spotify original podcast? - And a game of production. You can follow us at how to save a planet with the number two on Twitter and Instagram and email us at [email protected] or without the number two, your choice. - How to save a planet is hosted by me, Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson and Alex Bloomberg. - Reporters and producers are Rachel Waldholz, Kendra Pierre, Lewis, Annalad, and Felix Poon. Our senior producer is Lauren Silverman. Our editor is Caitlin Kinney. - Sound design, mixing and original music by Emma Munger. Additional music by Bobby Lorde and Catherine Anderson. - Our fact checker of this episode is Claudia Geib. - Thank you to Lucien Mathew and special thanks to Olivia, Patrick, Molly, and everyone else who wrote in and sent us voice memos. And especially to Amy Bogen and Harry Bishop who inspired this entire episode. - We'll see you next week. (upbeat music)