Are Copper Peptides Better Than Retinol? Episode 424

Hi, I'm Perry and you're listening to The Beauty Brains. [music] Welcome to The Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 424. I'm your host, Perry Romanowski and with me today is Valerie George. Hello, Valerie. Hi, Perry. Guess what? Episode 424 is a palindrome and I beat you to it. Oh, you do. That's very good. I've been waiting all week to say that. You know, Valerie, not everybody is enthralled with palindromes as me. I was playing cards with a girl last weekend in this card tournament. I was in and her name was Anna, A-N-N-A, and I was like, "Hey, that's a palindrome," and she goes, "What's a palindrome?" Oh, my goodness, that's so embarrassing. I know. These young kids these days. But we'll be answering questions like that on today's show and we'll also be answering questions including, "What's the difference between Ceta Phil and Amlactin? How do you know if a sunscreen is delivering on the SPF that they claim? Are copper peptides better than retinal? How do you stay smoother, longer after shaving and can extreme heat or cold affect the performance of a beauty product?" But first, let's talk about you and I and not seeing each other. It's been a little while since I saw you were in Europe. I was. I went to Germany to visit some family, a little Arnard, and then I went to a trade show called Incosmetics Global. This year it was in Paris. Next year it'll be in Barcelona, but it's a busy time of year. I feel like March, April, and May are so hectic with travel in the beauty industry because you have all these shows you have to be at different meetings like makeup and LA, the American Oil Chemistry Convention, Suppliers Day New York, which you want to be at. It's a hectic time of year. It is a hectic time of year, but speaking of Incosmetics, so how was the show this year? It was really good. It was so big and I honestly couldn't get to everything. I felt like it was a little bit bigger than yours prior and I had many meetings, scheduled learning about new technologies and all the things for different projects that I have, or even if I'm just curious about a new technology that's being developed, but I'm not too sad because everything that launches at Incos comes to New York Suppliers Day and it'll also be going to that because I'm teaching a course and so I'll also attend the trade show. But yeah, really great show, lots of new technologies on the horizon. There was one technology in particular. There's a company, they always try to find the most insane ingredient sourcing stories. For example, we went to the bottom of the ocean or this came from Mars and so the Marianas trench, I don't know. So they had all these fluorescent wasp spiders all over their booth and essentially the wasp spider creates this peptide and they were able to using recombinant technology or whatever it's called. Eventually figure out what this peptide sequence was and then recreate it synthetically for different anti-aging benefits. And I just got stung by a wasp in the back of the neck a few weeks ago it worked and so I don't like the word wasp and I also don't like spiders and so for me, I was like, I'm sure the technology is really cool. It's not for me. The question is, where you got stung? Is it smooth and wrinkle free? Well, I don't know because it was nestled under my low bun. Oh, yeah, it's no longer called a rat's nest. It's called a wasp nest. Oh, well, there you go. Hey, you know what I did in since the last time I talked to you. I took in a family of a mother and five kittens. Oh, like you're fostering them or they came from the street. We are fostering them, yeah. Oh, how cool. How does heat miser feel? The outdoor cats are not big fans of them but mostly because the the mama cat who's like a little tuxedo cat. She's a tuxedo cat. She has three tuxedo kittens, one calico kitten and one all black kittens. Oh, I wish we could have more cats. Oh, they sound so cute. They are cute. Actually, if you follow me on porch kitty on tiktok, you can see the kittens. But one of the things that they've been doing, they've been climbing up my leg and even though I have jeans on usually, they're little nails pierced through the fiber and go into my leg. And so now my leg has all these giant needle marks and they go all the way up on my leg. Oh, I love that. Oh boy. It looks like I have leprosy or something. With the cat there is heat miser not coming in. Right. They're most while they're joyously stay in the laundry room. So, or if my basement is closed off, which is where the kittens and mama are, then I'll let heat miser in the top floor. But mostly he's staying outside. But you know what? The outdoor cats they like to stay outdoor during the springtime when the weather's nice or anyway. Yeah, they don't need you anymore. I'm more of their winter refuge, but they still need me for the food. Oh, well, I thought we could talk about it here. I'm speaking of all the trade shows coming up and suppliers day New York. I mentioned I'm teaching a class on Monday, May 18th. And then the suppliers day ingredient show is Tuesday the 19th and Wednesday the 20th. I thought we could do a beauty brains meetup Tuesday evening in Manhattan. We had a couple listeners say, Hey, I would totally meet up with you if you did something. And so I thought we could. Yeah, that'd be great. So we'll get you some more information on that. But count on save the date Tuesday, May 19th in Manhattan, Valerie and I will be together. That'll be the first time we've been together since what last December last December. But yeah, mark your calendars for around 7 p.m. Tuesday, May 19th. And we'll get together. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, well, certainly a publicize here on the show. And if you're a patron, of course, we will send you a personalized note to let you know when that is. All right, are we ready for some beauty news? Let's do it. Valerie, I saw this article in good housekeeping. It was titled, This is the most cutting-edge at-home haircare color. Our scientists have seen in 10 years of testing and here's why. And whenever I hear about hair color, I think, I must talk to the one of the industry's experts on that. And that of course is you. And you know, it does, it occurs to me. I don't remember there being any big breakthrough in hair color. And I'm kind of surprised because it's very difficult to do. But they say it's the most cutting-edge thing they've seen in 10 years. What's your take on this? Cutting-edge is a really strong word. So the technology and product in discussion here is the Clareal Nice and Easy 10 permanent hair color. It's a home hair coloring kit. I'm sure it's very nice that Clareal people have a great legacy in hair color. And it's meant to process in 10 minutes once application is complete. What's special about this product over other 10-minute colors on the market is that it is using a patented technology by the owners of Clareal and they are also licensing this technology to Wella. Wella has a salon professional 10-minute color. And essentially it utilizes technologies. I can't really get into the history, but they utilize ammonium carbonate, which helps contribute ammonia to the formula. And they also use glycine in the product, which is an amino acid. And this helps facilitate the product working efficiently in 10 minutes and not proceeding past that 10-minute mark and helps reduce damage in the hair. So it is a technology that actually really works. It hasn't been on the market to anyone else because it is patented to them. It's not sexy chemistry, but it actually does work. Would a consumer notice a difference over other 10-minute color? I don't know, but it has a really nice comb applicator. And the fact that they haven't seen cutting-edge hair color like this in 10 years isn't necessarily like this is the best thing that's happened in 10 years. There just generally is not a lot of innovation in the hair color market because it's reactive chemistry. New compounds can't really be introduced because they require extensive safety and animal testing and all those kinds of things. So it's a really nice product. And I'm sure it works really well. If you have stubborn grays, maybe you need to leave it on longer than 10 minutes, but it is really a true technology. Okay, so the main reason that this is new technology is the patent piece, but it's been around for a while. It's just that other companies can't use it. That's correct. Although a sister company, wella, is utilizing this technology in their professional 10-minute color, it would be exclusive to Clareal. Ah, well there you go. The big guys patenting the good stuff that rolls on, right? Yeah, now whether it's better than conventional color, this is 10-minute color has a very specific look to it. I think that remains to be seen to the user. If you have a color you love and you want to switch it and give it a try, I would go ahead. But if you are already loving what you have, you know, I would say just stick with what you have. I don't think there's any monstrous improvements in performance. Ah, all right. Speaking of monstrous improvements. Did you see this article in GCI magazine? It says, "The hot ingredient at incosmetics is PDRN." So according to GCI, this article is highlighting the rapid rise of polydeoxyribonucleotide as the dominant force in the skincare market noting a near the 1,000% surge in consumer interest fueled by K-beauty innovations and social media of this type of ingredients. They said it was showcased at several technologies that incosmetics global 2026. And we talked about this in a previous episode, this essentially salmon sperm derivative, right? So what's the deal? Is this really new technology or is this like technology dujure which will be gone in two years replaced by something else? It seemed like they said there were a lot of launches in incosmetics including somebody launched a a vegan version of this. I don't know how you get a vegan version of salmon DNA, but I suppose they could have just used recombinant technology and fermentation with bacteria. So that's probably what they did, right? Every booth had some kind of PDRN launch and honestly it's like they all kind of do the same things. It's really regardless of the source. It just depends what studies they conducted on it. But when it came down to some critical questions, what I have about PDRN, it's not necessarily the sourcing. You can get PDRN from plants. I mean, it's essentially just DNA nucleotides, a little polymer of them isolated from some animal plant. What have you? Do you have any skin penetration data? Every supplier can show you in vitro data where essentially they take cells that are in a little cell tissue culture and they, you know, apply the ingredient to the cells and they can show measurable benefit. But if the ingredient can't get to your living cells because on the surface of your skin you just have dead cells, then it's not going to be able to do anything. And there's not a lot of studies showing that PDRN on its own can penetrate into skin, past the second outermost layer, the stratum granulosum, unless you have the aid of microneedling and not one person had penetration data. Oh, let me ask about that for you. And I'm like, well, if you have to ask, you don't have it. And yeah, because if they had it, they would tell you that because that's like a big deal. Yeah, so if I, yeah, I was like the analogy that I like is like say you have a dog who wants food and you put them behind a door, but you have food. If you can't get them the food through the door, the food is worthless to the dog. So that's the same way these active ingredients, if you can't get them to the dermis where the living cells are, it's not really going to do anything for your skin beyond probably just moisturizing in the outer layers, which is typically what these things do. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. It's primarily collagen building wound. Healing skin regeneration. It's all kind of these nebulous anti-aging benefits, which actually anti-aging isn't even a word anymore. Every booth would use the term longevity instead of anti-aging and what does longevity even mean? I don't know. Now, I don't think this is an ingredient that will go away. I think beef teller will go away. I think spicules will go away. I think this is one that will continue to stay around. I actually didn't see as many exosome launches as I thought there would be, was really a lot about pdrn and different peptides at this show. But I know that you were quoted in an article by the associated press apnews.com. The article is you can put beef, tello and salmon sperm on your face, but should you? So you didn't go to the show, but it seems like everyone's wondering, like, should you be doing this? Yeah, a reporter from Reuters just talked to me about the movement nowadays in the industry where people are kind of embracing animal ingredients, whereas in the past two decades, like at least 20 years, companies have really been getting away from animal-derived ingredients or animal ingredients. And it kind of started in the late 90s when they were getting rid of ingredients from animals because of mad cow disease on one hand and also because of the cruelty to animal peace on the other hand. And that would get into ingredients like, even ingredient like lannolin, which doesn't really involve animal cruelty, it's just typical grooming of sheep and the sheep wool. But the fact that it was from animals scared enough people and our industry is very reactive to bad news. And if you can easily replace ingredients whether you have to or not, whether the fear is real or not, the industry will change if it's easy to do. And that's pretty much what we got away from that. And lots of consumers wanted vegan stuff and there was kind of a vegan trend. And it seems like beef, tello coming back and the salmon sperm stuff coming online. It seems like consumers are getting away from the concern about animals to to some extent now. Things are all cyclical though. I think we'll go back to a time maybe not in the next couple of years, but maybe in 10 to 15 years where people don't want animal byproducts again. Just like, you know, 10 years ago, we didn't want it. Now we do. It'll come back. So I'm not invested too much in any ingredient because ingredients do come and go. And I tend to like to reach for ingredients that have a background in pharma or can stand the test of time. But that's just my personal formulation approach. But we'll see. I think we'll continue to see a lot about pdrn. Yeah, I personally can understand the weariness of using animal derived ingredients. But I also understand that nobody's out there killing animals just so you can use a cosmetic product. Most of the stuff that you get from animals that's using cosmetics is just a byproduct of the food industry. And if that's not being used to make other products, that stuff, the parts of the animal, it just gets thrown in the garbage. And so that seems to be like a worse result than if you use the whole animal. Exactly. Hey, we were also mentioned in a Vogue article. And it's a podcast that does not give out bro energy. So I guess that's a good thing, right? This was specifically Vogue India. They basically made a list, a curated list of the 21 best podcasts we found that don't give podcasts and bro energy. And we made the list for the top beauty podcast. So that feels pretty, pretty good. Yeah, and India's big. I was just there. It's a big country. Oh, yeah. So thank you to Vogue India. And thank you to everyone in India for listening. All right. And we'll provide links in the show notes for those all the other shows that were listed. Hey, are you ready for answering some questions? I hope I'm ready. Our first question comes to us from Laura. She says, hi, Vathering Perry. Thanks for taking my questions. I value your expertise and enjoy the show. I was using amlactin intense healing on my body and sometimes my face after showering. I heard that it helps with creepy skin or creepy skin helps with creepy skin. Recently, I saw my dermatologist and she told me to switch to Cedar fill hydrating, firming cream instead. The ingredients are different. The amlactin smells stronger and is thicker, but the Cedar fill seems more hydrating for comparative purposes, which is the true skin firming product if such a thing even exists. Thank you, Laura. All right. Are you familiar with these two products? Certainly the Cedar fill. I'm actually familiar with both of them. Oh, really? Okay. I am. Yeah. So the first time Cedar fill, I've used tons of times and we actually have some in our bathroom. It's a pretty standard issue. You know, lotion type formulation. No bells and whistles in my opinion, to be honest, but it feels nice. It feels a little bit occlusive. The amlactin product, I got because someone that worked in the, we had a test salon in our lab and or I guess the salon would say they had a lab in the test salon. But nonetheless, one of these salon professionals was like, oh my gosh, I love amlactin. It makes my skin so soft and that's all I knew about it. So I bought a big bottle of Amazon and I was a dowsing myself head to toe. And for a couple weeks, Perry, I was like, where is the tube of hair color? I thought I had a tube of hair color in my bag or like residue on my clothes. I kept smelling ammonia and then it hit me. Oh, okay. It is the lotion because the key ingredient in amlactin, it's purported to contain 15% lactic acid. But it's actually as ammonium lactate in the formula, which is the ammonium salt. And so essentially, once the lotion is applied to your skin, the ammonium lactate, the lactate portion gets converted into lactic acid. So it's not free lactic acid in the lotion and the ammonium molecule is released. And so I'm really sensitive to ammonia. I I work with it every day. And so I was smelling what I thought was a tube of hair color that burst open onto my bag or clothes. And in actuality, I was smelling myself. - Oh boy. (laughs) Well, so this one has that lactic acid. And that's actually, is that like a drug product levels? 'Cause it's in like 15% or something. - No, there actually is no drug level for lactic acid. But I think what they do is by using a moanium lactate, the salt version, not all of it converts to lactic acid. And it's probably pH adjusted anyway. So I think it's okay for your skin. But I will say this lotion did make my skin feel very soft. It was a little bit topical, heavy, meaning not super rich. Like wow, this is a really thick, unctuous cream, but it just kind of sat on top of the skin. And again, I did feel like my skin was soft and protected, but I just didn't like the feel. And as much as I love the smell of ammonia, it did kind of drive me crazy. So for me, I couldn't use it. Now the Ceta Phil product, I'm just like, it's okay. - I mean, it's a pretty standard lotion, right? - Exactly. Is it more firming or less firming than the AML actin product? - I think they're just two different types of products. Really, they're two different kinds of lotions. And in my opinion, it's whichever you feel best with your skin, 'cause just in my opinion that AML actin product really does have a special feel. I personally don't like that topicalness, whereas I feel like the Ceta Phil goes into the skin a little bit more. The emulsifier in it is a little bit more melting, we'll call it. - Yeah, it makes sense. - Yeah, but it's all personal preference. I don't think any of them are gonna do anything quite differently. I mean, the Ceta Phil product can't have too much mandellic acid in it, not only is it pretty low on the ingredient list, but it would have to be pretty neutralized and mandellic acid's really kind of a slow product. I would think that AML actin has more lactic acid than the Ceta Phil has mandellic acid by the time the ammonium lactate converts. But just my guess. - But as far as the firming claims go, I mean, the word firming is just one of those cosmetic claims, which is hard to pin down exactly what that means. Is it making your skin hydrated? Is that making it look firmer? Does that reduce the flakiness? That make it look firmer. So it's hard to say, but I think the AML actin it's gonna have some exfoliating effect. And in that way, it probably might be better for your, the IP of the dry and flaky skin, which that's the creepy skin that is described there, right? - Yeah. Honestly, Perry, six and one half a dozen in the other as my dad would say, I think it's all about the experience. You know, one of the interesting questions that you might think about this is, why would the dermatologist however recommend switching? - I think Ceta Phil is more integrated into dermatology networks. - Yeah. - Anytime I go to the dermatologist, there's free samples all over the place. Anytime I go to a med spa, free samples all over the place, I just think it's more well known. I think AML actins, but just a bit of older product perhaps. - Right. You know, I am struck by looking at the bottle. It looks like Ceta Phil. You know, it's got the blue and white and the simple text. And I'm like, wow, are these the same? - I'm sure they're fun to have yours. - I wonder who was that way first. All right, well, I hope that helps. And I agree, the dermatologist probably is like, oh, we're used to Ceta Phil. And the other thing is that maybe they want them to stay away from as much acid because that 15% acid seems pretty high to me. And it could be irritating over time, right? - Yeah, but it's kind of hard to explain. I don't think all that acids there 'cause again, not all ammonia lactates getting converted. The pH, I don't think is super low on that product because of the free ammonia that's liberated. So yeah, I just feel like you're not getting that much acid and that's more marketing claim. But I don't think a dermatologist would know that because dermatologists aren't well versed in formulation nuances. - They are not, but they are inundated with marketing. - Well, our next question comes to us from Demaray. Hi, I recently started listening to the podcast and had a question about a sunscreen. I tried a sample of this expensive sunscreen by Dr. Fu and it looks amazing on my skin. It feels like the only sunscreen that doesn't give me a white overcast looks great over makeup and feels amazing on. However, it's very expensive. And I'm concerned that it isn't delivering enough sun protection as a normal sunscreen. Here's the ingredient list. Zinc Oxide 25% and then a bunch of inactive ingredients. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on if this purchase would be worth it. Are there alternatives to look for and why do most sunscreens tend to look bad and flaky on my skin while this one doesn't? And if I'm truly getting enough sun protection with this product or what I need to layer with another sunscreen, or is it simply worth it for just the moisturizing effects alone? Thanks so much. Well, I don't know that she didn't list the pricing of this, but as far as the question goes, is it getting the SPF? If this product is sold in the United States, at least it has to be tested for the SPF. And I will add that 25% zinc oxide is I think the maximum level allowed of zinc oxide. It is the maximum level, you're correct. Right. And in that case, I would anticipate if it's formulated properly, that you're gonna get the SPF that is claimed and on whatever it is. Now I don't know what the SPF for this particular product is claiming, but if it's SPF, 30 or SPF, 50, you can certainly achieve that with the zinc oxide at 25%. So with zinc oxide 25%, that's typically an SPF 30 type claim and that's indeed what the product is. I went to the doctor a few websites. I've actually never seen this brand before. It is a tinted mineral sunscreen, at least the one I found online and it's $85 for one fluid ounce, which is indeed. What? Whoa, wow. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I was like $85. I mean, that's not bad. And then I saw, I thought it was for six ounces and I was like, what? Seriously, could you even get one application for that? Like you'd have to use one ounce for that. Wouldn't you mean enough for one application? I think if you truly use the amount of SPF, you should be applying on your face. That's about three weeks worth of sunscreen. If you add your neck into it, probably two to two and a half. OK. Now most people aren't applying that. So as Perry mentioned, they got the SPF claim because they did the SPF testing. And in the United States, there's what's called an Envivo method. Essentially, it's actually applied to people and evaluated. And there's some other methods that can be used in vitro, but because it's for sale in the US, they did test it on people. And they're applying it at an optimum level. Now, whether you're actually getting it from the amount being applied, that I don't know depends on how much you're applying to your skin. And also, you can't really just look at an ingredient list and tell what the SPF you're going to get. Even if you know 25% zinc oxide is in there, it's just you have to test the product. And because the way that the product is put together, that's going to impact the SPF value that you get. Now, I can see why you really enjoy this SPF product. One of the emulsifiers in there and it actually uses many things to help the Musclevine Stable is polyglissarol to dipolyhydroxystyrate. And this is a really nice feeling, a musclefire that kind of melds with the skin. It helps the skin feel like lipids have been replenished. And this is probably one of the reasons that you're really enjoying this type of product. And I can see why you love it. If you're worried about not getting appropriate SPF protection, it sounds like you're wearing makeup. That's one thing that you can make sure you're wearing foundation with it that helps increase coverage protection on your skin. I don't know if I'd necessarily layer another SPF with it because I think it might completely interfere with the film formation or you might not, you might get the negative skin attributes of the other SPF that you're not loving. So I would make sure that you just stick with this one. It also uses a set of polymers that have a silicone like feel to them, which is probably why it also feels really great on skin. I actually might try this. Oh, but don't tell Mr. Cosmetic chemist. I bought a couple sunscreens in Europe and he's like already annoyed. I was like, I'm going into the pharmacy to buy baby formula because baby C came with us and like, I come out with baby formula and since skincare products, he shouldn't have let me in there alone. That's gonna happen. Now as far as those white cast goes not getting a white cast with 25% zinc oxide is that's a feat because you'd expect to get some but if it's dispersed well enough I suppose you could that's going to minimize a whitening and the fact that it's tinted that can also have the effect of reducing that white cast. Exactly. Well I'm excited to try it. I'm definitely going to give it a whirl. All right speaking of world let's spin up the next question. This one comes to us from uh this is a buzz sprout fan so we do not have their exact name let's just call them buzz. Hi Valerie and Perry I love the show. I just had a question about copper peptides. I recently read an article in the cut talking about how they are better and more gentle than retinal but they're not easy to work with and yet there are products on the market that do have them so I was just wondering if they work some of the products that the cut mentioned are ordinary multi-peptide and copper peptide serums are well-nosed copper peptide serum bio essence copper peptide wrap and plumping serum and so on so forth. So thank you very much. It's almost sounded like an audio question. Maybe they were reading it with their voice that's what sometimes I do. I do so many voice messages for my friends I bet you they hate it. Oh really well that's very clever. Well Valerie I looked at the article that she referenced uh there was a cut article called should we all be using copper peptides for our skin and it looks like at the rise of this of the beauty peptide trend and specifically the GHK copper which is a naturally occurring tripeptide that is combined with copper to deliver and trigger healing and mitigate aging. Copper peptides have been around a long time specifically studied in pharma for wound healing you can find I want to say hundreds if not thousands of published papers on their efficacy in skin. They were first really brought into skin care in the 1970s and there's a few people that claim to have invented them for use in skin care if you meet with some of the copper peptide companies that are out there and copper is a really great thing for skin. Peptides are a really great thing for skin and the fact that they're joined together gives this peptide a really unique function within the skin. Now I'm interested to see that the cut recommended copper peptides as an alternative to retinal because I feel like they kind of do very different things and so I wouldn't think like oh let me try copper peptides instead of retinal. I think that you would actually use both of them maybe not at the same time but certainly as part of like a skin care routine retinal is really great at increasing skin thickness increasing cellular turnover boosting collagen production significantly and all of this makes retinal ideal for reducing the appearance of wrinkles supporting people who have acne prone skin and helping reduce pigmentation in the lower Fitzpatrick skin types. Copper peptides kind of work on collagen production which makes sense they come from a wound healing background but they're not not the same as retinal and they're metabolically different they're used for different things. Yeah I mean they say that you know this is a carrier peptide and it's supposed to stimulate healing protection anti-aging and interact with your enzymatic processes. So right away that gets to the notion of well does it penetrate far enough to actually do that because the outer layer of your skin is just dead skin and that's not going to have a much impact if it's just sticks around the stratum corneum. So does this copper peptide get low enough to interact with where the metabolism is really going on? I think there's some data that shows it does but the thing is again it's just very different. I don't know that I would switch or drop a retinal unless you absolutely couldn't tolerate retinal and then it copper peptides a nice choice but it's not going to do the same type of stuff. Now I always wonder how much copper peptide is actually in formulas because copper peptide comes as a very bright blue powder and you can get it in solution. Guess what? It's a very bright blue solution and if the product you're using that has a copper peptide in it doesn't even have a tinge of blue. I can assure you hardly has any copper peptide present. You know it's one of those ingredients where to notice an effect would take a long time. A very long time. Where's retinal? I think you get more quicker results. It's kind of immediate use and so when you are facing the beauty industry with a product that can take a long time to have an impact people are usually going to default to whether they like the moisturizing effects or the immediate feel effects of it and from the marketer standpoint there's no real benefit to adding the copper peptide at a high level because that's going to cut into your profit and so you can get the same impact, the sales impact, the marketing story by putting it at a low level and relying on the moisturizing effects of your product to you know make people like the product and keep buying it and then the copper peptide's story of it whether it works or not does not really matter. So I think that's generally what happens with most of these kinds of products. Yeah look for the blue in a copper peptide product, look for the blue. But as an aside I added the Dr. Fuse sunscreen to my cart and of course it recommended some other products for me and I was like oh let me just see if any are you know copper peptides or anything like that and of course you know this doesn't have anything but I found a product that it's recommending for me even though I don't take GLP ones Durma Reverse for GLP one users $300 for an ounce. Wow this doctor is this Dr. Fuse? Dr. Fuse, wow someone's got to pay his med school loans but yeah looks like that. Yeah but he actually did I mean this just shows how some studies can be biased you always have to look at who's doing it but they did a six week double blind placebo controlled clinical trial published in the aesthetic surgery journal open forum which you know you might not be a fan of that publication but anyway nonetheless I mean it looks interesting they do have a peptide cop. Is that a pay for play journal you know you can just pay to get your stuff in there. I think so yeah it has a peptide and it's not a copper peptide so I won't be adding to it. Alright well there you go. We're ready for the next question. Our next question comes to us from Z. What can I do? A patron. Hello thanks for supporting us. Yes thank you. What can I do about the needles on my face after I shave? I'm pretty lazy and I would like to just have to do this once after shaving. Shaving less close helps but I'm pretty lazy and would like to shave as little as possible. I was thinking of using a hair relaxer but the AI said that there are no appropriate chemical treatments. The AI suggested abrasives and I tried some disposable pads but they require continued use to be effective. I think this calls for a portable sander. Suggestions on grit or a better alternative. Well I don't think a portable standard is a portable standard. I don't think a portable sander is a good idea for your face although I do have a razor electric razor which to be seems like a portable sander right it's kind of the same thing. So Perry I don't shave I don't have a daily beard or mustache to worry about. Sometimes I do shave my face to get all the vellus hairs off if I need if I have like an up close headshot or something like that coming up but is Z speaking to like you shave and then your face feels prickly like what's what's the problem. Yeah it's like that you have like the beard stubble if you don't get a close enough shave and you you know I shaved today recently and so it's pretty short but if you just move up like that you can feel the the little hairs it yeah it feels almost like sandpaper itself but if you really shave close and if you're using a new razor I rarely use a new razor because you know use a razor disposable for a couple of weeks. I'm not they don't take grooming advice on me but it works for me fine. You don't get early-ass closest-save and so it can actually feel feels rough that's what it is. Would exfoliation help like a glycolic acid or lactic acid something that could also help soften the hair? I don't really think so because that effect that you're feeling is the hairs and so if you're exfoliating you're kind of raising the hair right you're removing a top layer of skin and that kind of raises the little stubble hair up a little bit and so you could feel that so you know that that's not gonna that to be honest with you I don't think there is any great simple task simple thing that you're you could do here, short of like, you know, Nair, something like that. Like a Herber relaxer, that's not a great idea. And I don't think using Nair, Herber Remover, is a great idea either, especially on your face, that could be way irritating. But that's the kind of thing you'd have to do. You wanna dissolve the Herr fibers. And so that gets the really the closest shave. And another way to do it, of course, is have a really good razor that gives you a very close shave. - Interesting. You know, I'm, yeah, Nair, which uses like, theioglycolic acid or some similar chemistry, it's a thiochemistry, essentially eats away at the disulfide bonds within hair until the hair kind of dissolves and falls away. I don't really think that's recommended to be used on the face and it has a horrific odor, by the way. - All right, yeah, no. You shouldn't use that on your face. - Yeah, but what you could do is, I'm trying to find something online, but basically there's this material that I used to use in another lifetime for a project to help soften hairs for shaving. And essentially, it's a sodium PCA in amino acid blend that really work too soften the hair to make shaving a little bit more comfortable. And I'm wondering if we could find a product like that, that would be really interesting. I'm seeing something called amino acids plus B5 by the ordinary. I don't know if it has all the amino acids or this complex that I'm looking for, but this actually might be a really good item to try and I would leave it to kind of soak on the face before your shave to help soften those hairs. And it's only like $9 for an ounce or 1.7 ounces. So it's either 30 or 50 mil. But I think this has a protein complex in it or excuse me, amino acid complex that might help with that. - Another thing that you could do also, I think moisturize after you shave that could help to mitigate the effects of this. But there aren't hugely great answers out there. - Yeah, unfortunately not, but hopefully Zee, that product from the ordinary that I just mentioned, try leaving that on and see if it helps give you a little bit better of a shave that doesn't leave those needles. But yeah, don't use a portable sander. All right, we have one more question from Emily. Emily says, "My salon recently received "the shipment of hair color developer and shampoo "that had frozen in transit. "Our rep assured us that it won't adversely affect the products, "but I'd like a chemist take. "Can extreme cold or heat impact the performance "or stability of these or other beauty products?" Well, this is a very interesting question because it's a thing that people don't really think about. But when you manufacture a product, it gets put into a warehouse onto a pallet. That pallet gets put into trucks. And the trucks are driving, if you're in the United States, they're driving to the south, they're driving to the north and overnight, they might be in freezing conditions. It might be in hot conditions, like in a desert or something. And so that formula or that product can go through all kinds of different temperature swings. The same product could go through a hot state and a cold state in the same day. And so when we're formulating products, we do a thing called stability testing. And you test and the stability test, you test products at different temperatures and at different light conditions. And ideally, if you formulated a product properly, it should remain stable no matter how it's exposed to out into the real world. However, that's just ideal. What's your thoughts on this? Generally hair color developer shampoo, depending on the formula, they're pretty tolerant to free saw. Unless Emily, you're in Siberia. Then I mean, I'm not joking. There was once an issue with things getting frozen in Russia and even northern Canada, but these are like really deep temperatures. And also one time the US had a big cold freeze and we had some hair color stuck on a real car. And it just, I mean, it was stuck for days frozen. That's not an ordinary circumstance under ordinary freezing conditions. Most of those products are fine. The thing that I caution with hair color is extreme heat for extended periods of time does actually impact hair color because the dyes are sensitive to heat. And so the product should definitely not be stored in hot conditions. We can transport probably isn't-- excuse me, probably isn't a big deal. But if for an extended period of time it's been there, you might get a little bit of shift in color. That's hard to replicate in real life because it really is a factor of heat. Also, sometimes developer, if it's stuck in heat or stored in heat, the hydrogen peroxide can start to prematurely decompose. But you would know this as an issue either if the bottle is a little swollen or rocking or whatnot. But again, typical transport time is taken into consideration. And it's not much of an issue. I will add that heat exposure is typically worse than cold exposure. And so if something is frozen overnight, and it's allowed to thaw back at room temperature, it's typically going to be fine. In fact, when we do stability testing, our control is usually at 4C, which is very cold because less chemical reaction happens at lower temperatures in general. And so I'd be less worried that the product got cold overnight than if it got hot for an extended amount of time. Right, I feel the same way. But even heat, again, a couple days, not a big deal. A week or two weeks, that's generally an issue. Particularly for hair color. But you'll know the color is bad when you open it because it'll be prematurely oxidized in the tube or maybe a little bit of the color and portion will be leaching out. Speaking of leaching out, I hear the music leaching out. Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review that will help other people find the show and ensure we have a full-docky, a beauty question to answer. And if you have a question, you can get your voice on the show. 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