2941: Are Artificial Sweeteners Bad for You | The Real Problem Nobody Talks About

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If you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at mindpumpstore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to mindpumpstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. All right, we're going to talk about artificial sweeteners. So much controversy surrounding them. We're going to talk about the actual dangers of using them. It's a little click baby. Yes, this is true, but we're really going to get into it. Artificial sweeteners. Let's go. Oh, wow. This topic. We used to talk about this a lot. We did. We haven't talked about it in a long time. I remember this was, I need to tell you, you bring this up. I think back to what brought Lane Norton and us all together at the first time. Was this? Yeah. It was. Actually, that was one of the more viral episodes we ever did because at that time, Lane was ascending. We had been podcasting for a while now, and this was one of the few things that we didn't fully agree on, right? And there was a lot of buildup online, and so everybody thought we were going to get into like a big. This is going to be this huge war we're going to have or something. Yeah, well, we're not really pro or con artificial sweeteners, but the con part is not for the reasons that people. People think, you know, what prompted this for me was I saw Max Lugavere did a post, our good friend, Max Lugavere, who I love so much. He's got tons of integrity, and he's very objective. So Max will, he'll change his opinion based on data, and he has on a couple things, and he doesn't, he, like I said, he's got a lot of integrity, so I really appreciate him. And he's like, oh, you know, I have the occasional Diet Coke, and people were lighting him up over, yeah, just over the artificial sweetener thing. So here's a deal. And now. So as coaches and trainers, I'm going to just say this straight up, I was never pro artificial sweetener, but it's not for the reasons that you might think. So I do want to get this out. They're unlikely physiologically dangerous. There definitely is a lot of scaremongering surrounding artificial sweeteners, like they could cause cancer or brain issues or chronic disease. Stay away from them. They're totally bad for you. They've been studied a lot. Okay. By the way, that's not perfect because you can't be a hundred percent with studies, but there's a lot of studies done on artificial sweeteners. Well, they've been around for quite a while now. And they've been around for a long time. And so a lot of the stuff that you'll hear, the fear stuff surrounding them is just that it's kind of scaremongering. So what we're not going to say here is like avoid artificial sweeteners because you're going to get cancer or avoid them because they're going to kill you. That's we're not really in that camp. Okay. Now, of course, if something comes out to show the otherwise. Of course, we're going to be like, okay, here's what new data shows. But again, we still don't advise people to use them. It's not something that I ever promoted. And it's for other reasons. And that's what we're going to get into. I've never changed my mind on these. I've remained consistent since day one on this. I consume Diet Coke. I've openly talked about it since we've started the podcast. I think that if you are a competitive athlete, meaning competing on stage, bikini, bodybuildings, men's physique, things like that, we used artificial sweeteners and things like coffee. We use Diet Cokes. We use things like that because these people were so meticulous about their diet. They were tracking every single calorie that it worked. What I found with regular clients that had a hard time tracking consistently or never tracked and thought they would use Diet Coke or low calorie, no calorie foods and drinks that were replaced with artificial sweeteners. To restrict calories or cut back on calories, it actually didn't work. It worked in the moment where they said, oh, I'm not going to have a regular Coke. I'll have a Diet Coke. And they would have it, but then they would make up for those calories and other things. And we found that the artificial, and I noticed this even with myself when I have them, it like kicks up my appetite. So I, now I am aware of it. And so, and I've learned to balance my macros and I've done that for a very long time that I can allow those things in the diet occasionally and be okay. But the average person who needs to lose 20, 30, 40 pounds that is using these, you know, no calorie or low calorie sweeteners to replace calories end up making it up somewhere else. So it becomes a moot. It doesn't work. No, in real life, it doesn't work as a weight loss strategy. And you see this in the studies. So if you track every calorie that goes into your mouth and you cut your calories, you'll lose weight. And this is when artificial sweeteners can become a strategy. And Adam just talked about this group of people that do that, who are competitors who get on stage. The average person doesn't do this. The average person tracking every single calorie and macro is part of a strategy, but you don't live this way. You never live this way. This is part of a strategy that allows you to kind of become aware of what you eat. Maybe if you're reverse dieting, you're trying to figure things out, but eventually you want to get out of that. You don't want to just track everything. And so when you look at the data on this and people are told, Hey, replace your normal sodas or replace your normally sweetened foods with these low calorie, no calorie, artificially sweetened foods. And then let's come up, let's follow up with you six months later. They don't help with weight loss. They just don't. Now you, the science says they should, right? If I'm cutting 500 calories of sugar out of my diet and I don't replace it, of course I'm going to lose weight, but that's not what happens. What always don't see that with behavior, which by the way, when I want to make this clear too, because our, our, our. Buddy Lane will cite like the studies that show that when they do this, but this isn't a controlled environment where that's, this is where, where studies don't always do us a favor, right? It's, it's great that we understand that. Yes. If it's pretty obvious, you take something that's zero calories, you replace it with something that has calories over the course of six months, then of course you would lose weight. The reality is though, in, in, in the context of the real world and the people that are not in a study where they have to track or have to follow everything. By these rules, what ends up happening is they have, it doesn't change behaviors. Right. And so that's what I'm interested in. Right. And so, you know, yes, very aware of what the studies say around artificial sweeteners and how it can help with weight loss. Problem is nobody is, is working within the confines of a study in real life. And so you have to ask yourself over the court, and this is why there was, there was debate between us and rightfully so. What is our good buddy train mostly? Yeah. Competitors. So not only does he understand this. The science and the studies, he also has a bit of a bias because the majority of his clients are, they're like me, they're weighing it. And so it works for someone like me that does, that is tracking, weighing and measuring everything. And so the D and the difference is what did we train mostly? I didn't train that many. I'm trading more competitors towards the end of my career. I trained zero average people. Yeah. That was way later. Most, it's still 80% of my client book over 20 years has been general pop. Right. And so here's, so I'll get into, so first off, it doesn't really work in real life. Uh, by the way, they've been in, they've been in, they've been in, they've been in They've been around for a long time. If you look at the amount of calories people get from sugar in the average american diet if they did work by now they would have worked at least in some significant way but what's happened is we've just gotten more obese and so they just in real world in the real world in real life with real people's behaviors they just don't work but here's the part here are the parts that i really don't like um when you're consuming something that is very sweet or savory or palatable okay anytime you consume something that hits those uh those senses that fires the brain in that way because an artificially sweetened soda has no calories but that doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on my body obviously yeah i perceive the flavor how am i perceiving the flavor my brain is perceiving the flavor something's happening my brain that tells me that i'm drinking something very sweet does that have potential negative effects well physiologically probably not psychologically yes and i'll even point to this physiological uh effect it'll change how you perceive palatability and this is just a fact if you consume lots of sweet tasting things even with no calories other things that are sweet or naturally sweet let's say like fruit for example starts to become perceived as less sweet in fact here's one of the things i would run into with clients who had lots of diet sodas they didn't like the taste of water this was shocking to me as an early trainer i remember when i first became a trainer yeah now i didn't grow up with lots of soda uh in my household well you know we're kind of a traditional southern italian family we drank water we never had lots of soda so i didn't grow up with this and i remember i'll get these clients and i talked to them about water intake and i remember the first time someone told me it's like well i don't like the taste of water and i was like i thought they were joking and they were serious i'm like what do you mean the taste of water yeah it's water like what are you talking about it's boring i don't like drinking water because it's boring and then i kept hearing that from more and more clients and then i started to realize these are people that grew up drinking lots of soda either regularly sweetened or artificially sweetened and the the the way that they perceive sweetness or the way that they perceive flavor or the experience of food has been altered because of that to the point where water tastes gross fruit is bland and whole foods don't taste good and we have this is well documented by the way this is well documented with heavily processed foods if you eat a lot of heavily processed foods whole natural foods start to taste less and less exciting and more and more bland why because they're engineered to be that way so you cannot find something in nature that has the sweetness impact of a diet soda it just doesn't exist and so does your brain adapt to that it does we know this and so does this affect behaviors otherwise in other words this does affect other behaviors with food it definitely does and so this is what i found with my clients like if we avoid them we tend to do better than if i let you put them in your diet except for the people that track every single calorie that goes in the mouth yeah it just never really worked well i mean i know it's a difference with the my palate with like fruits and vegetables yeah fruits and vegetables become more bland the more those things that you have in your diet you take those out of the diet and now fruits and vegetables start to taste burst yeah flavor yeah and and again when when we're in the business of helping people change habits and behaviors uh it's not always about the science and the math it's about okay if i can get my client to do x y and z will this help them long term and in this case more often than not uh having them in there is not ideal well yeah you think about like every single meal like growing up and like that's that's a hard association to break so you know it's a big ask for your client to to be able to have you know a meal and then have something with that meal that doesn't have flavor to it uh so i used to run into that a lot and like i need something with some flavor it's a trip yeah it's just it was just because every time they're consuming that was the ritual that was the part of the process and so like yeah it does make a big difference in then how that affects behavior so our brain uh adapts uh to stimulus in this way so i'll give a couple examples that are not related to palatability but are similar in the sense that your brain starts to adapt so i have little kids okay and when i put on entertainment that's made today for little kids it's it's radically different than the stuff that i used to watch when i was a kid in the early 80s when i was five years old i watched mr rogers if i put mr rogers on today and compare it to like coco melon mr rogers moves so slow it's insane it's crazy how slow it moves in comparison to the new hyper stimulating stuff that they make for kids and if you now if you showed me mr rogers when i was five i loved it i loved i watched it and it was great and i enjoyed it you show a kid who watches coco melon or something else all the time mr rogers they hate it their brain has adapted to the hyper stimulus this is also true for other things for example pornography does this to people when it comes to traditional intercourse in fact you'll see erectile dysfunction has now exploded among young men because of pornography it's so hyper stimulating so hyper novel that the real thing just doesn't do it why because the brain has adapted so when i'm constantly consuming artificially sweetened foods and beverages it's going to affect how my relationship to the rest of food and it's not going to affect it in a positive way and i'm going to point to a second piece here okay novelty so adam said something earlier that people love to debate and i know lane has even tried to debate this but it's because they're looking at the studies wrong so what we have said in the past is that consuming uh like artificially sweetened foods or beverages will make you eat more now what they do is they'll go on the date they'll go on the study they'll study if you consume a soda with that's artificially sweetened how does it affect uh ghrelin how does it affect hunger in some of these ways and it doesn't it doesn't make you hungrier but that's not what we're talking about what we're talking about is the effect of novelty and satiety so let me give you guys an example when you're eating a food that is very savory and salty and you eat so much of it that you're like stuffed eat something sweet and then go back to it watch what happens yeah suddenly you can have it again because you've interrupted the perception of savory with sweet which introduces novelty override it and then you can go right back how do people consume sweet artificially sweetened beverages with a meal so i'm consuming a meal if i'm washing it down with something sweet i will probably my my my uh my level of satiety won't hit as quickly because i'm constantly interrupting it with novelty so i'm going burger diet coke burger diet coke burger diet i'm gonna eat more of the burger fries then if it was burger water burger water even though they have the same calories it's because it's interrupting with novelty and this is what you see when people have artists artificially sweetened beverages with meals is it changes how they eat the regular meal because of that novel well there's also the the psychological piece that's attached to that where when you when you drink a soda let's say a regular soda that has what is it 160 calories or something like that per can and you and you're trying to lose weight and you're trying to be good about not overeating calories there's something that psychologically happens where you there's a like oh this i'm taking in calories right now versus oh this is calorie free let's go crazy so then what it ends up letting you so then what you make you do is like oh i'll have a bunch of these and then you to your point you end up it ends up being a novel stimulus while you're eating french fries and something else and then you end up eating more of that and then you end up eating more of that because this is zero calories right so there's also this psychological part of like oh this is free it doesn't count so i still have more room for something else and so there's there's there's more going on than what these studies control for for the average person and again this is coming from a person who i i drink openly talk about i use artificial sweeteners and do it so it's not that it can't be done um but it just doesn't seem to work very well for the average client no it's used to help someone lose weight it's never been one of my stress oh you know what let me look at your diet here's what we're gonna do yeah let's swap that out with diet soda here let's see what happens and nothing i've only had great success with it with my competitors and that's a completely different category when they are they are looking for because they're in this deprived state all the time and they're looking for some sort of a treat right and so we use something like you know artificially sweetened jelly on rice cakes you know or we use a diet coke or something like that and it gives you a lot of energy and you're like oh my god i'm gonna lose weight and i'm gonna lose this you know rush small wins yeah this yeah and and that person again and they're weighing and tracking everything uh and let me tell you they still went to bed hungry and they still went to bed under calories so uh the average person though they have that they go oh man it's so good then they have something else so it's uh yeah it's just never worked well for for regular clients no and i'll add this lastly okay yes although the studies show generally safe aside from the things that we talked about that affect things like behavior uh around food and palatability and how it adapts to that constant you know um signal of sweetness besides all that yeah generally safe based on the studies but here's the deal and i can make this as 100 it's a fact it's not as safe as water it's just not as like yeah like we don't know what we don't know now i'm not one of those guys that's like hyper fear-mongering like dinner don't ever have any chemical because we never know what we don't know you know i'm more like that with things that are new with things that haven't been studied for decades but this is also a fact we just don't know what we don't know We've been drinking water since day one. We know what it does, our bodies made up of it. We will never be able to say a diet soda is as safe as water. And we just don't know what we don't know. We don't know if it affects the microbiome in some way that affects something else. We don't know if it affects fertility a generation later. We don't know if it acts within another chemical that we get from something else. And both of them individually don't seem to cause an issue. But when they seem to combine, we seem to have some problem. We don't know what we don't know. And so the people that are like, it's perfectly safe, no, you can't possibly say that. By the way, water is very safe, but that's not perfectly safe either. You could drink so much water, you'd die. So nothing is in that category, but definitely water is water. And the reason why I'm saying this is the fitness community, especially the aesthetically focused fitness community, if something is zero calorie, they place it in the same category as other foods or health. Because it's zero calorie, it's a health food, which no, that's just not true. Well, to the water point, we talk a lot about how protein, so many people under consume protein. I had a lot of clients that under consumed water. And more often than not, somebody who was the three to four zero calorie drinker every single day were the ones that were underwater. They had three or four diet Cokes or artificially sweetened drink. But then drank no water whatsoever to the point you made that like the poor clients like, I just can't stand water by itself. It is wild, but it's also, I mean, I remember when we first started working with element, it was one of the points that you made. What's so great about it is it's so, I mean, it's so good for you as far as the hydration piece to it, but it also tastes so good. You get people who aren't big water drinkers using it. I would prefer, I prefer moving in that direction as well. Although water is water, like let's just go with water. By the way, I got to tell you guys a little hack that I deal with it. So, so if you're not familiar elements in electrolyte powder, and it's got about a thousand milligrams of sodium per serving, which is good, which by the way, when they first did that was kind of radical because everybody's afraid of sodium. But the truth is, if you need electrolytes, you need sodium, you need a decent amount of sodium. So if you need electrolytes, that's what you want. But anyway, little hack is people take a pre-workout before they lift, mix it with a element. You're going to have a big, you know, jug of pre-workout, with water, throw element in the extra sodium with the water. We'll give you way better pump, like way better. In fact, I'm shocked. You've mixed them. I throw them together. It's so good. So do you use a pre-workout that's a flavorless? It doesn't know all flavor. It doesn't matter. Really? Yeah, it's good. Oh my God. No, it tastes great. Really? Yeah, it tastes great. I don't know if I trust you. It is good. Really? But I'll say this. I am shocked. You marry with wild cherry. Well, I'm shocked. He's definitely the guy when you were kids that did this. And slurpee flavors all in one. Yeah, yeah. You still were the only one. I did that only once. It was way worse than I thought. Blueberry. Yeah, that mixed all the slurpee. It never tastes good. There was always that kid who did that, who like mixed all the slurpee flavors together. No, it's not good. It just looks like poop. Yeah, it does. It comes out of crappy flavor. No, so a lot of water and sodium, you know, 30 minutes before your workout will give you the best pump ever. So, and we've talked about that for a long time. So I've used element pre-workout, but just mix it with your pre-workout and you'll get one of the best pump. In fact, I'm shocked and I guarantee someone's going to do this now. I don't know why pre-workout companies don't just add a thousand milligrams of sodium to their formula. I don't know why they're, you know why they should, Justin? Besides the fact that you'll get a better pump, sodium increases palatability. So if a pre-workout company adds sodium to their. I wonder what the theory is on that. It's salt, sugar, and fat are the main components in palatability. I know, but I'm wondering what the theory is on why a pre-workout wouldn't have, a bunch of sodium. Because there's still sodium, like fear maybe? Yeah, fear. Like, yeah, that's, I mean, that still lingers, dude. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. There are people that are a little like leery. Although I tell you what, dude, the pre-workout formula market, I don't think anyone would really care about sodium. I don't think. That's what I'm saying. The amount of milligrams. If you got hypertension, you shouldn't have. They're not marketing to healthy. No. Yeah, if you have any hypertension, you want to pre-workout. Yeah, if you have hypertension, you shouldn't take a 300 milligram caffeine. It's probably a bad. Yeah, I wonder what the theory is on that. I wonder what the reason is on that. We had. But yeah, sodium is part of palatability. So for pre-workout added 1,000, not only would people get a better pump, and it's cheap, it would barely touch their margins. Yeah. But the flavor would be better without changing anything else. I wish we had this when I was playing football. It was just like one of those things. I would always hydrate like really well and make sure that I, you know, I drank, you know, quite a few days before like one of these like big games where I knew I was gonna sweat like a ton. But dude, I wanted to bring this up because there's a guy in our backyard that's. He's 47 years old. He just signed up and he's on San Jose City College. He just like made it on their like junior college team and he's playing football. 47? At 47 years old. He's playing football at 47? I don't know a position. I think it's defense. Like I think. Really? Yes, I think so. I mean, anything but kicker is probably really impressive at that age. He's like playing real football. And of course, like he's making kind of a social media. He's like kind of documenting it and stuff. And he's like. Dude. And you just look at it. His fingers all busted up. He's got all these bruises and all this stuff. And I'm just like, wow. He's awesome. That's a year. Yeah. A year from now, I'd be like. There's such a difference running into something real hard when you're 20. Yeah. Or when you're 47. That's kind of cool, bro. It is cool. And I applaud him. It's like everybody's hating on him. How did you find him or meet him or what happened? Oh, no. This was on like a Bleacher Report thing that I read and then they highlighted him because it was, you know, that's kind of a crazy story to be 47 and like getting after it now. He had a huge, like he, I guess in high school, he was like, you know, a great athlete and then like had all these injuries and it prevented him from playing. And so, I don't know. I guess he got a wild hair. I mean, I think that makes it even crazier, right? Because most people, you get all those injuries and then you hang it up and then you definitely don't come back at 47 and then you're going to play at the competitive collegiate level. I mean, that's wild. I was just having. That's wild. I was just talking with my buddies about this. We were talking about. You guys, I think you shared one. It's like these short clips. Yeah. Yeah. You know, social media where it's like 20-year-old guy coming out of the back of his truck and he jumps down and it's like a 48-year-old guy. And, you know, he's like turning around trying to figure out how he can get down without jumping and he sits on his butt and slides down. Slides down. Still twists his ankle. Yeah. We were talking about that. I was. One of my buddies was like, dude, he goes, I'm working out, you know, I'm starting to feel good. I want you to go play pickleball. He goes, I didn't even get to play. I'm like, what happened? He goes, I bent over to pick up the racket and I turned and popped my back. I had to stay. We were laughing so hard. Bro. So. It's so embarrassing, the conversations that I feel like we had. So this weekend I had my fantasy football party at my house and so then my buddies and I, my best friend and I, my best friend is, he's coaching his kid's soccer team now. And he's in good, like he's a good shape guy, like, but he's not like a workout guy. Like he just maintains his weight, eats relatively healthy. He's very active. And so he always maintains like good weight and he probably walks around at 15% body fat without exercise. And he's always been like, he's athletic. He does. He does outdoorsy stuff and everything like that. But he's just not a workout guy or he hasn't been for a long time. He used to work out when he used to live with me. And he's, he's motivated to want to get back in the gym. He's telling me that he was coaching the soccer game. He's like, bro, he's like, man, he goes, I picked up the soccer ball and I threw it across the field and he goes, and I can't get rid of this pain now on my elbow. I'm like, dude, you can't. Stain power. Yeah. You can't do that stuff. And so we talk about all the time. We talk about the show all the time and it's like, you hear it. It's like, the last thing you want to do is throw or do anything remotely explosive. At that age, when you haven't trained for it, you just can't, you can't do it anymore, dude. Or else absolutely shoulder elbows done. I almost want to go to one of those games. I would, I would totally just like watching. I mean, you got to get, you got to keep us updated because I would love to follow. I mean, that's an interesting story to me to be able to at 47 years old and to play at that level too. This isn't like rec ball. No, I mean, in junior college, they're really trying, you know, to prove themselves because, you know, obviously they're trying to get like into, think of the respect he's going to get with all the other players. I'm sorry. They all probably like, let's go, dude. Yeah. I mean, maybe. Yeah. Maybe. Or do they all call him Unk and they're all like. I'm sure they call him Unk, but. Yeah. I know. It's funny because I, that actually was the college I used to, like, I was trying so hard to get my speed to increase and like, you know, get my 40 time better. And I worked with their track and field team. And so I remember that, you know, exclusively, I was like, I was doing everything, all the parachutes. I was like running in their pool, like everything I could do just to shave that, you know, little bit of time off. And oh my God, dude, I, it's one of those realizations. You're like, dude, I, I can only get so far. So more power to this guy if he thinks he still has it, you know? I mean, making the team at that age is, would be impressive. I mean, just him being. I can't believe it. Yeah. No, I mean, that, that, that's impressive itself, regardless if he gets that much. I had one of those realizations again recently, because my, I've told you guys about my brother who doesn't work out. He just doesn't work out. He went to the gym. Oh, you know, I finally did a workout. I did a workout as I did 12 reps of 225 on the bench. Oh my God. Get out of here, bro. Why'd you get all the genetics? All the genetics. He got all the genetics. Just shows up and just starts cranking out. Yeah, whatever, dude. You know, I'm just going to crush it. Do you ever think though, because I think about this, like the, that's why I'm grateful for all of my childhood. Okay. It's just that I believe like I am who I am today because all the, all the. Of course. Right. Of course. And so like, would you become like, like, would you have been him? You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, drive to really lift because. "Yeah, I could go lift whenever I want to." - I don't know, but I just know what's the potential. - Of course, of course. And I don't know how to, I try, I was like telling him like, cause we did, we made sauce this weekend. So, you know, my family every year. Oh, you guys did that? Yeah, we made sauce. Oh, you guys did that this year? Yeah, yeah, we did. Oh, I thought you were thinking about not doing it. We did it last year. We didn't do it, but this year we did it. And so we were all there. Who hosted it? My mom. Your mom. It's always my mom's house. Okay, it always is. And so we were all together. Can we steal some? Yeah, when are you going to bring us sauce? I want to try this, dude. I just forget. I've never got a jar of sauce, bro. I just forget. Never. I'm sorry. What is the point of having an Italian friend who bottles his sauce by the hundreds? There's other benefits to having an Italian friend aside from sauce. You guys call me in the middle of the night, need some help with something, you know what to call it. But anyway, we were all hanging out and I was just, I'm trying, like motivating my brother. And so my buddy shows up and I'm like, this guy got all the genetics and I'm telling him, he's like, you don't even work out and you do that? He's like, no. And then my brother's trying to talk crap. You know, he's like, oh, my, my brother, Sal's like a four cylinder twin quad turbo. He's like, I'm a V8. You know, he's. He loves to say that. And I'm like, dude, if you just, can you just do what I tell you for like, just for like six months, bro? Yeah. I just want to see what would happen for like six months. Yeah. He's like, nah, I'm all right. Oh, God. Come on, dude. Doesn't care. Come on, guys. Doesn't care enough. Doesn't care, dude. Oh, my God. He just got all the genetics. It's painful, dude. But we did a thousand pounds of tomatoes. Thousand pounds. Whoa. Those Roma tomatoes? Yes. Yeah. So my dad picked them all up and then. Where do you guys get them from? He goes down. It's like. It's. It's on the way to Sacramento. I forgot the town. Is there like. Is there. Is there a. I would think that there's like a place that you always go to. So we used to. So the tradition was. And this is not just my family. A lot of Italian families do this every year. They make sauce. But originally when my. When my mom was a kid and they did it, they would go to farms and pick the tomatoes themselves. Wow. So they'd pick the tomatoes. That's legit. Then bring them back. And then they do the whole process. Now we just go and buy the boxes. So my dad went. I don't remember what town it was, but he went. And picked up a thousand pounds of tomatoes. Brings them back. And then it's like an assembly line. So. And I always do the same thing. I always. I'm always the guy that washes and cuts the tomatoes. So we have these huge barrels that we fill with water. And you move them in each barrel of water. So it gets successively cleaner. And then you got to cut them in half. Then you bring them inside. And we have this machine that you stuff the tomato. That. Oh no. Then they cook the tomatoes. Then you take the cooked tomatoes and you put them in a machine. And the machine spits out the skin and the seeds. And spits out the sauce. And then they. There's. There's some other stuff that they do with the jars. I never. I was never been involved with that. So I'm not quite sure. But then they put the sauce. That's usually the women are doing that part. Seriously. So we're all. We all kind of do that. It's all compartmentalized. It is. And then they. And then what they do is they put the sauce in the jars. And then boil the jars. And it seals them. And then. Yeah. We have like tons and tons of jars of tomato sauce. Wow. The best part is always at night. After we're all done. We have fresh pasta with sauce. Oh yeah. That's cool. That's so good. Amazing. Do you. Do you feel like. Can you. Do you think you can tell. Or does. Can your family tell. Like when you. When you go to different farms. Like is it like. Is there. Is it very clear. On like. Oh this was a good season. Like can you tell. Or is it just. I don't know. Good question. I don't know. I just cut the tomatoes. Yeah. I mean I feel like there's a part of it. It's kind of like good wine. Right. Like I mean. Part of what makes great wine is the grapes. Yeah. Is where you get the grapes. Well the good news is we're in California. And so this is like some of the best. Yeah. Growing for anything. Is around here. Luckily. Because if you're in another part of the country. That's a good question. I wonder where families. And other parts of the country. Because Italians do this every year. Yeah. I wonder if they ship them in or something. They might right. Well you know we're not. If you're on the east coast. Where are you getting your tomatoes from? I don't know. We're not far from one of the like ag capitals ever. Salinas is known for all of that. Yeah. Like I think there. It's one of the best year round climates for growing like tomatoes. And like forget what else. But I've looked it up before. It's like. Artichokes for sure. Yeah. That too. Well you know. So you know San Jose. In fact I just watched this video about the history of San Jose. San Jose was. This was like all farmland. And they grew some of the best fruits and vegetables here. For I think the military base in San Francisco. And the rest. And other parts of the state. And San Jose was like. And it was known for it's very fertile land. It was all farmland here. And then of course they discovered Silicon. And then came Silicon Valley. Forget that. But this is supposed to be some of the most fertile land in the world. Yeah. Is it more of the soils or more of the. I always thought it was the climate. Yeah. I always thought it was like the climate makes. The soil and the climate supposedly are really good. Yeah. It'd be interesting to hear from somebody who obviously pays more attention to that. Because you don't. Is there a huge difference? I would think so. Of course. I would think like you get like a great season of tomatoes. And it's like oh this is the best sauce we've ever had. How long does. Do you know this? How long does sauce say good once you've canned it? Oh a jar? It could last two, three years. It can. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Sick. Yeah. So it's like you go to my parents house and they have like a cabinet full of just jars of sauce bro. That's so awesome. I know. It's so exciting. It's so awesome. Hey have you guys seen. Did you. Did any of you guys watch the Grand Theft Auto on Netflix yet? Oh no. I saw the trailer for that. But I didn't get to watch it yet. Did you watch it on Netflix? Just the trailer. Yeah. That's what I mean. There's a 25 minute trailer. Oh I didn't watch the whole. For the video game? The clip of it started running. Yes. Yes. Can you pull Netflix up on here or no? Boy. I don't know. I have to log in. So it is. You can't find the trailer on YouTube? You know what they spent building this game? Oh I can't. It's been working for. They've been building it for years right? How much? How many times has it delayed? It's been like a few years of delay. Yeah. Because of everything. Between one and two billion dollars. For a video game. For a video game. That's crazy. It's the most expensive. Don't get that back. By far. That's crazy dude. Nothing even close to it. So you know we've. There's. It's been real quiet. The talk about metaverse for a while now. It's pretty much that was like a flop for Facebook. And everybody else that was kind of pushing the direction. This has the highest potential in my opinion. Of what they were trying to do metaverse wilds. Now I don't think. I don't think you're going to. You're not going to wear goggles. You're still going to be playing it on a video game and TV. But they're making it to where you can get paid to play. You're going to have real interactive stores. And things that you can buy. Oh wow. In the real. And if you watch the trailer on this. Like even like just the first three minutes of it. You feel like you're watching a real movie with real people. And you're obviously. You're obviously controlling it. Stuff like that. But it's. It looks. I knew. I've heard about it forever. But to see it. Okay. And I'll go. Wow. I'm like. I've been so out of the video game world for so long. But it's like. This is going to be. Yeah. Because I remember hearing. They really. The detail of being able to go inside. All the buildings. And like. Be able to like. Yeah. Run a business. And do all these like. Crazy things inside it. Yes. Do you guys think. If all video games disappeared. Today. That world. That the society would get better or worse. It would make no change. Do you think if all video games disappeared today. It'd get worse? Well like. If you like. Rip the bandaid off worse. Or you mean if like. It didn't exist. And then people had to figure out. I mean. I guess we could get all. Like. Because it's like. Think of it this way. Generally speaking. Because. Well. The way my brain went. When you said that. Get rid of everyone's addiction. Exactly. It's like. Riots. No. Seriously. I mean. Now you'd have all this pent up. Place that energy. No. 100%. So. Besides that. Besides that. I think. Yeah. You're right. Because that would be. That would be wild. Yeah. It's like me. It's like you asking. Like if. If. You know. A drug. Name a drug. That's highly addictive. Didn't exist. Would we be better. I just think generally. Besides that. Generally. You'd see a lot more people socializing. I think you'd see a lot more people going out. Yeah. And hanging out with each other. Doug. If you were to went. If you would have went just to Netflix. The streaming service. Like literally. Right on the front page of Netflix. Yeah. I don't know what's going on. Where they sent me. It's okay. I mean. You guys can watch it. Another time. Yeah. For 25 minutes. But you guys literally. I mean. I just want you to see that first two or three minutes on it. If you go to the home page of Netflix. You'll see it. It's being. It's obviously being promoted. Right. There you go. Top left. There you go. Oh. And so. Let's just play it. And then. You can get it. So does this mean they're close to launching? I believe so. I don't know if the boys know. If Dylan or. You said in November. Oh. Is it November is when they're. Yeah. That makes sense. I'll put the. I mean. It doesn't feel like a video game at all. It feels like you're. The whole. I watch like the first 10 minutes of it. You're watching a whole movie. Yeah. With a plot that's like so interchangeable and stuff. That's wild. I'm going to change the subject. And talk about a commonly used medication that helps with hair loss. And some of the crazy side effects that it produces. So finasteride. Have you guys ever heard of finasteride? Yeah. Super popular. Dutasteride. Finasteride. Yeah. Okay. So. They both prevent the. Conversion of testosterone to DHT. And DHT is a hormone that the male body has. And I don't know if the female body has it. But I think also. And it has some roles. It's androgenic. So it's very androgenic. But it also can play a role in hair loss. And so reducing DHT. In many cases can stop hair loss. Or maybe even reverse a little bit. But I don't know if you guys are familiar. With some of the side effects of finasteride. But it's. It's not one that I would mess with. I'd be much rather. Much better off being bald. And I know some. Most guys don't. Most guys don't experience these side effects. But if they do. Whoa. What's like erectile dysfunction kind of stuff? Or what? Permanent. Right? Like permanent numbness. In your penis. What? Permanent. Like some. Some guys will get like. Their sex drive is gone. Then they go off. And it doesn't come back. Sometimes it takes a year to come back. Sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. Suicide. Increased risk of depression. And suicide. Yeah. From this drug. Now these are not huge. Is this going viral right now? Is this like a. There was an article. That was posted. Because I just saw a clip. Literally before we got on. It was in my feed. His. So the New York Post just did. An article. About this healthy 26 year old. Who had. Penis numbness. Orgasm problems. And it was in a year and a half. After he stopped taking it. Still stuck around. Man. But you could look up. Doug. You could Google. Finasteride and suicide. Finasteride and depression. And it's like. All in pursuit of just like. Not losing your hair. Now it's. not a huge risk so of course i'm gonna be clear it's not like it's like uh this massive risk but it's still a risk it's pretty crazy yeah this must be what the so i saw that what's that what's that kid's name clavicle yeah clavicular clavicular clavicle i knew some of this i knew some of their stupid name it popped in my feed and logan paul was interviewing him and he made obviously it's going viral this clip right now he made this bold statement of i'd rather and they must have been they must what i didn't see and it makes sense now that this is in new york times and you're bringing it up and like why this even popped in my feed that uh you know he would rather uh not be able to use his dick be numb than to be bald and so what i'm assuming is because he takes all this stuff right he does all this stuff takes all this stuff he's probably taking that and i'm assuming that logan paul was asking him what about what they what's come out recently about this and he made the point that he would rather be what are you doing yeah i think that's crazy crazy yeah what are we doing what are we worshiping here well some people are just really uh i i didn't realize it until i started shaving my head on the podcast um how many people opened up to me about uh like how much they struggle with that and it was really tough for me because i really i can't i couldn't relate i mean i can relate to going bald but i couldn't relate to it was a little wrapped and i think it's kind of wild because i got like psoriasis spots and everything so i like i'm not like that's not the most like uh awesome situation for me it's like i'm not only do did i go shave that but that's also areas where i have my psoriasis so it's like you know i'm sure there's insecurities and i don't like it but it doesn't it doesn't phase me like it phases some people some people it's boy it really uh scared to death of it and it's to where they're doing all these things preventatively before they are even going bald or or they have gone bald or they're doing all these things preventatively before they are even going bald and it just is crushing uh their confidence and like at where it was asking me like how i dealt i was like man i i wish i had something good to say that i had to work through to get there just it was i was trying to shave my head sooner you know there's something you could do about it because okay you can't like i guess you can't just will your hair to not fall out or you know are the things you could do lifestyle while it's probably not much but you could get jacked like jacked and bald this is it works dude yeah i know it's a thing you guys like if you really feel bad about it not to mention getting jacked requires work and discipline and consistency that builds confidence like crazy that also shows prospective mates that you're that you've got some drive it creates that within you just be bald and jacked i mean i i think that's i actually think that's a really good point because even though that seems so it seems different because it's like but it's like your physical appearance i i think uh i would think but i mean we're not the right people to ask the opposite side of it but i think it's a good point because would prefer a bald jacked dude than a dude with all his hair and sloppy yeah like i just don't sure i mean i would think that that you would go that i would think you know i'm saying like but that's dude we have a buddy i'm gonna say too much because he gets offended but we have a buddy who's bald who recently just got jacked dude he looks way different oh yeah he looks way different oh yeah bro yeah i just saw him the other day and i'm like what are you doing i mean he was at my house this weekend he looks incredible he's at my house and i'm telling you bald and jacked is actually the best thing i've ever seen in my life i've ever seen in my life i've ever seen in my actually it looks good it's like a kind of goes together oh yeah a little bit yeah it does no it does and he was getting compliments non-stop all week all this weekend so because we were it was like a pool party so he's walking around the shirt off and everybody's like oh yeah everybody's like dude that's so funny you're crazy jacked i've never seen you like this yeah ain't nobody talking about the bald head no nobody said nothing about that but you're but you're bald no one said that yeah no it's yeah yeah no i don't know i don't know what that is how much is that because i've seen like somebody like i think it's juji mufu actually like like he went and did his he went and did the plant or one turkey now they got the they got the they got yeah there's a whole business around that oh yeah um how much do you think that cost expensive no it's not well i don't know how much is in turkey no no look it up look it up turkey uh bald whatever i don't know what you would hair transplant hair transplant thank you hey doug you can tell you can tell how many times i've googled it right i have no idea don't type it i had a buddy of mine what am i what am i who is like hey bro let's go let's go to turkey and i'm like dude i don't care like why dude so it's for it's between two to four thousand dollars but then you gotta fly there okay it used to be like a 40 if that's your main crisis it used to be 40 000 plus and it used to not be as good like now like it's in the u.s it's eight to eighteen thousand dollars i have a buddy who did it and he took a picture of his head the day after oh yeah you're messed up for a while traumatized head look like a mushroom oh it just because the trauma yeah it looked like a mushroom yeah you're you're you're inflamed i was traumatized you're inflamed for a few days you just gotta look pretty rough for like a week or two it takes i think a solid can you lose the hair again you can right i don't know can you yeah i don't think you lost it the first time is it like there's not a money back guarantee yeah it's like real hair it's your real hair dude so he's just replanting it yeah no dude i'll just i'm just yeah it's wild there's there's a lot there's a lot of uh fitness people that have i know i've seen i've seen the i mean it they it works i just i don't care yeah this is like just but i care about you know why you don't know what i care about as much i care about my calves yeah you know why you don't care it's like a new lawn that they're you know shaping and you know why you don't care bro because you're jacked i'm telling you guys listen to me don't lift weights your hair's falling out go lift weights dude it fixes it totally fixes it yeah i mean rock whatever you got or you know another or get rich you know make a lot of money there are two things you could do negate it for sure go make some money yeah go lift some heaven forbid you do both if you're rich yeah if you're like if you're a fit and you and you are successful like come on bald head sexy suddenly yeah suddenly it's attractive yeah yeah you know i got i pulled up some studies on uh exogenous ketones just to change the subject here and um pretty consistently improves cognitive performance in healthy people sometimes the criticism is that the ketones help when people have metabolic dysfunction which is true uh but in healthy people consistently shows cognitive improvement which is funny that we need to study for this just try it and see for yourself yeah right i take i i take two a day every day especially when we podcast two of the ketone iqs oh i love those when we when we podcast it's been my favorite thing to add now to like because i'm a caffeine drinker is the back half it's like my go-to back half of the day yeah dude it's like front load caffeine early mental sharpness and then stimulate hardcore and then like keep it going yes totally dude i think it's anybody who's a ketone drinker i think it's a good thing to do it's a good thing to do it's a good thing to do and if you're somebody who who loves coffee or energy drinks for the morning for work and you haven't done ketone iq like i urge you to try that try doing that like start your day with your normal caffeine like you do and then once it wears off and then yeah wear off midday take the ketone iq and yeah dude perfect yeah it feels great dude i have this idea okay uh for and okay so i saw the store i don't know where it is i think it might be in asia somewhere but there's made it so it's basically a seven-story uh rock you have to climb just to get into the store so it totally eliminates posers like that's kind of cool which is great and so if you get there you actually get the gear you know and so like if you're wearing it people are like okay you actually had to like go climb to get it that's in order to get in you have to climb yes show me a picture by the way can you imagine us doing that for fitness i mean that would be so we get so much backlash you know for that oh you want to come to the gym super exclusive yeah by the way asia is a lot of countries you said well somewhere in asia it's in korea it looks like uh the continent there's this place on earth there's this place on earth i want to go to this really cool place on earth i want to go to it's right there in the middle you guys broad broad swipe of the brush did you find it doug it is in uh seoul uh south korea okay see i was right guys fact checking me that's why i go broad oh wow so it's not like a rock climbing wall it's just like it's a rock no it's a bunch of stuff look at it looks like it just has one rock and then you got to go get through layers of the building yeah just to get up so yeah bro i think that's it's cool it's a cool concept i wonder how well they do i wonder what uh their insurance has to be i know to do something like that as asia is different there yeah they don't have insurance restrictions on that yeah yeah you know it is smart it is a smart marketing kind of because i'm sure people show up just to just to try it so you know what you know what i think is interesting about this uh and i think that we're we're seeing the pendulum swing uh we went so hard one way i feel like we're gonna come back the other way one of the things that we went this uh everything's all inclusive yeah i think exclusivity is going to be like yes i see that coming back totally think more private only these people i think that's going to become more popular again because we went so hard the other way and this is an example to me of that it's just like not everybody can come shop here sorry can't climb the rock can't come can't can't come in can't do it and i've bet i bet we see more stuff like this do you know who started that that whole like you can't come in well it's been around for a long time but wasn't studio 54 known for that where they would walk up to the door yeah and the you have to be like hot or the guy at the door would be like no you can't come in oh that's still today it still happens abercrombie got like in trouble for that right really because yeah do you know that do you know that a lot of uh and this still happens how what a hit to the ego do you know that you wait in line you go up to the front the guy looks like nah you didn't come in what they this is what they do this is still a strategy today is not a strategy nightclubs downtown, you always see these crazy lines when you drive by. Well, they have plenty of room to fit the people in. We'll restrict people coming in so you see how crazy popping it is because of the line. Oh, sure. Yeah, it's marketing. So it looks like there's – exactly. It's marketing for them. And then they'll go and they'll handpick the people. Yeah. So you're next in line, but you're goofy looking. So they walk right past you, you know what I'm saying, and 10 people back. Oh, your ears are too big. Two or three cute girls. It's like, come on in. And so you move the hot girls in and you – you know, I never understood the appeal of nightclubs. I just never did. You go in there. I know. You're smashed. You can't hear anything because everything's so loud. It's dark. You basically have to get drunk. Otherwise, you're anxious. There's no other way. I'm just anxious in here and I'm tight with everybody. You didn't go through a nightclub fit? No. I guess you were married at 12. That's why. Yeah. 12 years old. I mean, I was in Chicago. I did my share of like – Yeah, I did. I like lounges. I did too. But nightclubs are like – Well, yeah, you sound like an old man. You sound like an old married man. You sound like a guy. Did you like nightclubs? Yeah, it was cool. I mean, at an age, at a certain point in my life, but not now. You knew girls were going to be there. Yeah, but we were – I like to dance. I like to drink. You really like to dance? Yeah, yeah. As bad as I am, I still like it. You really like it? Yeah, bro. Bring it on. Yeah. I'm not ashamed. I'm not ashamed of that. I'm not ashamed of my bald head. Stop. Let's go. Let's go. Stop, dude. I didn't know you liked to dance. Well, no. Katrina will tell you that she can always tell how many drinks I've had by how many. She goes, she's like, under four, he's embarrassing to be with. Six, all of a sudden, he's like, everybody's watching him dance. That's what she claims. It unlocks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It unlocks something. And I'm not sober enough to know what it is to be able to put it together, but something happens. That's great. Yeah, that's what she says. I feel like Justin does the splits. No. Yeah, he did. I used to do like the worm. I knew it. He doesn't fight people. I was like, Justin does the splits. Well, yeah. It turns into fun. He fights when I have too many. There's a tolerance. What's the number? Yeah, you never, so you never went through the nightclubs, Vegas scene, any of that stuff? I did it a couple times, but I just never understood. Like, I did nightclubs where we had like table service, where you're roped off. That's so different. But when you're in with everybody, you're just slammed, smashed together, and it's just not, I don't know. I would hate to be a woman in that, by having dudes all up against you, and it's just uncomfortable. Yeah. It's kind of weird to me that you'd see groups, and they didn't want anybody to interact with them, and it's like, well, what are you doing here? You're like, you know this is going to happen. I mean, I'm so pro that versus where the society has gone the last 10, 15 years. I agree. I think at least it's social. Yeah. Even though it's not great. I mean, this like stay home and swipe right. No, you're right. Yeah, it's way worse. Like, who cares? Let's go out and get, you know, sardines in a club, and maybe meet someone. Get rejected a bunch of times in one time. Get lucky. And learn the hard way. They look different when the lights come on later on. Like, that's all part of growing up. It's all part of growing up. When the house lights come on. Ah! Oh, my God. Oh, shit. They really optimized the lighting in that bar. Oh, my God. I saw a video of this dude. Everybody has to have that experience once in their life. I didn't know he had a mustache. It's a part of growing up, man. So, yeah. No, I'm way more pro. It's a part of growing up. I mean, I don't like it now at 45. No, I would. In my 20s, like, yeah. I mean, that was the thing. You're right. It is better than what's happening now. Yeah. Nobody goes out. Yeah. Dude, did you guys remember when there was a thing where there were these, they were like nightclubs, but you wore headphones? So, you listened to your own. It's still a thing. You listened to your own music? So dumb. Why? Why are you here to be alone? Dude, well. What do we do? I just saw. I've seen they have, like, different colors. Yeah, yeah. So, you know that person. You connect with the person that's vibing to that color. Still think it's dumb. I just feel it's too. It's dumb. Yeah, dude. It's dumb. I was just somewhere. Where was I at? It kind of defeats the purpose. It's like, can I be alone while being around people? Yeah. I forget what they call them, but they're like, they're silent dance parties. And you're right. Everyone's got these headphones on. They normally have, like, two or three different songs playing. And they're at the different colors. So, we're trying to just cater to introverts. It is the, I'm not a fan. A silent dance party. Yeah. A social gathering where you're not social. Imagine you just, like, walk in. You don't know. You know, everybody's just like, yeah. One of the best reasons to. To, like, to walk away and get a one-on-one talk is because it's too loud in here. It's too loud. Yeah. I can't hear you. You're dancing with someone. You're vibing. You're like, hey, let's get out of here. I can't hear anything you say. She's like, yeah, yeah, cool. Let's go outside. Versus, you're in there as soon as everybody can hear. You're, like, trying to talk to her. Start whispering. Yeah. Oh, you guys got my text last week how I chipped my tooth. It's fixed, though. Look, see. Fixed tooth. Emergency dentist. So, I chipped my tooth. Making out with a guy with a tongue ring. That's 100%. That was his theory. That's not what he said in the text. It was way worse than that. That's it. No, don't say it. I know. I was going to say it. It's only a little less PC. It was way more PC, but it also involved the piercing. So, anyway. Some gauge. Yeah. Thanks, Justin. No problem. No, I chipped my tooth, and I felt it. And I'm like, no. Because my dentist doesn't work on Fridays. And it happened Thursday at 5 PM. Most dentists don't. When he closed. So, I was like, what am I going to do? So, I'm like, I'm looking around. So, I found a dentist that was, like, emergency. And I went in there. And they fixed it up. They also fixed the other one that was kind of chipped. Everybody makes fun of it. How did you chip both teeth? What were you doing? The other tooth chipped a long time ago. I forgot what I was doing. This one, I was literally biting my nails, and my teeth came together real hard. Oh. And I chipped a little. This happened to me before. It was so awkward. But, like, I had, you know, I have caps. And so, like, I had one that was just a temporary, and it was on the very front. And, you know, over the weekend, I was, like, eating something. And then I was out in public, and I ended up eating the cap. And I just had, like, one little thing, right? And I was like, oh, my God. I'm like, hey. Oh, my God. I had no idea. No, you didn't. And Courtney's like, oh. And I was like, what? What's wrong? And I go in the back. I'm like, oh, no. Is there regular maintenance for veneers? Do you have to, like, regularly go, like, get a maintenance? I'm sure there is. I'm going to have to look into that. Because, yeah, I'm sure they only last, like, I'm sure it's, like, a decade or so. Really? Yeah, you have to, like. Do you have to get them done again? I think so. Not all the way. I bet it's just, like. Well, just, like. Yeah, I don't. Reseal them or something like that? Not sure, yeah. Because the technology you have now. I mean, they're like permanent dentures is basically what they are, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what veneers basically are, right? I mean, they're super durable. Yeah. Like, more so than even, like, enamel, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're supposed to be. They're supposed to last for a long time. I think maybe forever. Maybe. Until you're dead. Let's see. Oh, 10 to 15 years, Justin. Maybe last 20 to 30 years. Oh, okay. Well, that's what made me concerned. I was like, dude, really? Am I going to, like, have to go back in? Dude, that's. Oh, you would think that that would be part of the deal. It's like, you get them, and then it's not. I wouldn't think it would be as much to keep them. You get a warranty. Yeah, like me. 100,000 miles. Just polish them up and buff them out. Yeah, yeah. No, dude. No, I got mine done. So, if you go. Let's see here. 20 to. If you get 30 years out of me, you just might chalk it up and just be like, F it. Yeah. Yeah. Just. If you only get 10 or 15, you're going to have to redo that. But if you're like, what is that? That's going to put you. If you go 30. I'll be honest. 75. 75, bro? Yeah, 75. Dude, this is my. This is my balls here. You scare all the kids. Your teeth. If I just have the spikes. Oh, man. I couldn't rock that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But they can fix that. Yeah. Even if you're. Scary. Even if you were jacked, it wouldn't look good. No. That doesn't fix it. Yeah, that doesn't fix it. Like, hey. You got to have good teeth. The dentist. She was doing mine, and she's like, so what do you. Why do you need these done so quickly? Because I call them. Like, listen, it's an emergency. Like, I work in media. You're on camera. So of course, I start a conversation. Yeah, yeah. And so she's like, hey, after, you know, now that we're done, because I like them. I said, oh, you did a good job. She goes, well, you can give me a shout out. I'm like, you don't even know what media I work for. You don't even recognize me. So you don't get anything. Yeah, yeah. Her assistant's like, oh. I was being serious, though. You don't listen to my pup, you get no shout out. Sorry, lady. I paid the bill. That's what you get. You got to love that, right? Somebody's like, they don't even hook you up. Give me a shout out. Yeah, I know. You don't listen to my show. Yeah, yeah. It's awesome. I don't know. Here's your bill. Do you shout me out, too? Yeah. She was really good. She did a really good job. But then she was telling me about Pilates afterwards. I'm like, you definitely don't listen to my show. She was like, I don't want to get bulky. So I just do Pilates that sculpt. I'm like. Dude, how often is this? If you only knew who you were talking to. Oh, bro. I don't even get engaged in those conversations. I don't even like. I don't say nothing. Yeah, I know. Because then it's a whole conversation. That's too much to cover. And I don't want to discourage someone from doing something better than this. No, no, no. I'm the same way, too. Because then it turns into a long old thing. It was just like, you know, just go listen to the podcast sometime. Tell me more about your reform. You know, my business partner thinks dentists are all fraud. I'll see you later. Yeah. And dinosaurs don't exist. I'm just going to drop that. See you later. If you guys know how much I paid to fix the chip, too, bro. Oh, yeah. And emergency time, too. Yeah. It was a nice chunk. I don't even want to know what that stuff is up to now, dude. It was good. You weren't about to show up at the podcast with that, right? No, bro. First of all, I don't care that much. But you guys would just, the whole episode, you guys would be making fun of me. I mean, it would have been amazing. Yeah. We would have had fun with that. No. Everything is ridiculously inflated right now, dude. I was just texting my buddy. He had to go get his oil changed. We have the same car. And it's only been one year since he had been there. And I was telling him how much it cost me. And he's like, damn, dude, you've got to go over to my place. He's like, it only costs half that. I'm like, I don't know, bro. I'm like, I don't think it had anything. But I think the guy hooked me up, too. And then he goes, no. He's like, bro, I've never paid more than this. And he's telling me his number. And I'm like, all right. I said, well, he said. 1995. Yeah. Well, no. It was just a year ago. It was just a year ago when he went. He went yesterday. And I said, what's your bill? And it was $300 more than mine. Wow. And I'm like, and he's just like, dude. He's like, I tell you what. He goes, I might just handle this myself going forward. You know, along those lines, Costco has predicted, since they've been in business, every recession based off of spending habits of their consumers. Do you know what it is? Interesting. You want to know what it is? Yeah. And it's happening right now. Oh, tell me. Consumers, when they switch from beef to cheese. chicken and then from chicken to tuna and canned meats when those switches start happening interesting it predicts a recession and it's happening right now so costco just put out a fascinating topic yeah people move away from beef then they go to the cheaper like chicken and then away from that to the canned meats and that's what they're noticing right now it's a big swing interesting that makes sense yeah because because beef prices went up like up another 17 sure no it's it's nuts everything everything is is nuts what what the prices are right now and it's not getting any better everything is is dude i just went to um like the arcade like down with the boys i had them by myself uh this weekend and i was like i gotta get out of the house and let's go we went down there and um you know most games were like a dollar like that was yeah one game yeah one game you know that game where you just shoot um targets yeah it has all those like lit up the little red no five bucks to shoot just to do that i'm so like i i and like get over it dad i can't get over this it's five dollars well not only that it's outrageous you start to do the math you're like shit i'll just go buy this thing for home i guess use it three times in the next year we've already made our money out of it that's ridiculous i was like over in the old school section with like cubert and yeah yeah i'm playing stuff for like 50 cents they still have the arm wrestling machine there they no i don't i didn't see that but they had a um guitar hero like set up and i was like oh i want to get one of these for my house they used to have a really good arm wrestling machine on the boardwalk a really good one and it looked like a pro wrestler yeah with the arm with the big arm yeah he'd talk crap to you yep if you couldn't beat him and it was actually difficult and i remember as a kid we would do it every year we went and it was well 60 when i can finally beat it that's funny it's wild to think that in just our lifetime a game like that is five dollars my grandmother used to drop me off here in san jose when i was a kid at the nickel arcade and leave me with five dollars and i would play for hours hours yeah hours yeah i played off of five five bucks to think that you get one game you're done nuts dude yeah yeah that long we did one yeah that long ago that was like a kid playing arcade games like that that's when doug was a kid it was a shekel we had pong yeah yeah it was a string we just did you guys see the did you guys see the the pickleball video i shared on my instagram story oh it was like like one of the greatest like rallies or whatever i shared i bet a lot of people didn't pick up on it though because i shared it because of the comments oh my god oh yeah you got it you'll enjoy it like yeah yeah it was like i mean it was a great rally it definitely was but it's so uh the game is so easy i'm saying that it's like minimal movement yeah very very minimal movement for this long right and the the comment section was just oh diabolical bro i was dying so i shared it but then i thought after i shared i was like oh i bet a bunch of people think i'm sharing this because i've been openly talking about how i love pickleball now you're a fan check it out this is sick no i showed some means talking trash but it's funny because like i would i would play and make fun of it at the same time that's how that's exactly me right now i'm exactly like i'm all in love it i think it's great at the same time too i know it's ridiculous yeah so i'll try and hype it up yeah no yeah coolest thing ever no not at all joy mode is a pre-sex supplement uh that's right you take it before intercourse for better performance it's also good pre-workout it's not a stimulant-based product all it does and it does this effectively is increase blood flow in a big way so this product was created because ones on the market were terrible and prescriptions come with all sorts of side effects you don't want to get those you don't want to get those side effects joy mode is simple it's easy it's natural and it really works it's backed by data here's what you do you tear open the packet you pour it into six to eight ounces of water you drink it and 45 minutes to four hours later uh you perform much better again you can also use it as a pre-workout it's also good for endothelial health so increased blood flow is good for your vascular system so this also can be a health supplement that's how i use it go check them out go to tryjoymode.com slash mind pump use the code mind pump get 20 off back to the show our first caller is julie from illinois hi julie hi julie hello hi guys how are you doing thanks so much for having me on i really appreciate it you got it how can we help you um first of all i just want to say thanks you guys have been uh a welcome routine to my morning and i really appreciate all you're doing for uh everyone in the personal training space and the fitness industry to try and get people to be more um knowledgeable and be able to take care of themselves in a in a good way for life thank you so i did send you guys a recent update i'm gonna try and kind of summarize my initial email because i know i'm a little bit wordy um so initially when i reached out to you guys i wanted some assistance with knowing what type of program selection i should utilize to help with improving bone mineral density and strength because my initial duxa scan showed some osteopenia at the time i was 46 now i'm 47 5 feet 4 and have been 115 pounds most of my life until recently i am currently up to 130 after starting a reverse diet uh i think my osteopenia stems from years of excessive cardio insufficient nutrition and genetic factors petite frame caucasian with the goal of trying to improve my bone density before going fully into menopause initially i wanted to know what ideal rate i should weight i should be targeting for um i did change my macros uh i went initially uh i was consuming about 2300 calories i bumped all the way up to about 3 200 calories a day nice macro tracking currently is about 120 to 160 for protein 90 to 120 for fat and about 250 to 300 carbs i am fully vegan because of a lipoprotein a abnormality that's genetic and i started that in december of 2022 um with my recent update that i sent you guys i initially did your free 30 days of training when i first found your podcast then did maps strong max performance maps anabolic and i'm currently in phase three of maps aesthetic but i'm not doing the volume that's recommended in the program so if it says like four or five sets i'm usually doing three on the focus days i am doing mobility or more like a recovery day although i had a strength training background before starting your programming i was not consistently doing movements such as deadlifts bench press barbell back squats and overhead press initially i saw good strength gains with my reverse diet but i feel like my progress has plateaued for a while i've not been able to increase the amount of weight i can lift since finishing map stronger math performance and no changes occurred with maps anabolic in a calorie surplus at the same time my weight has increased and i feel noticeably fluffier around my abdomen and thighs the number on the scale itself doesn't really bother me it's more that my legs and my stomach are larger and i can't fit into some of the clothes that i was able to wear last summer even um like around january i have um i was at the 3000 to 3200 calories per day until starting maps aesthetic since then i've reduced my intake a little bit averaging about 2700 calories per day i typically eat closer to 3000 on the lifting days and 25 to 26 on mobility or walking only days um my workout has also changed uh recently from 7 45 am to 5 am on work days and later on non-work days because of the earlier time i don't feel as awake or as strong during my workouts and i expect that this will need to factor in on how i approach my training going forward i've also had some health changes since i initially wrote to you guys i started hrt and thyroid medication back in november with my levothyroxine and progesterone being bumped up and then was given an estradiol patch in april um i've also been suffering some from elevated fasting glucose since august of 25 and i just talked to vita bella and started a glp-1 medication at a microdose to try and get my fasting blood glucose closer to being below 100 because it's been running about 100 to 110 120 sometimes i also did a repeat dexa scan in january that showed normal bone density for someone my age using a t-score rather than a z-score that was used on my initial test the scan did show a discrepancy between my hips and i did tear my meniscus on the left side at 30. although my in-body scans in the past and unilateral strength work does not show a discrepancy um so i guess other things you should be aware of i typically get about six point five to seven hours of sleep on nights that i have to work eight to nine on weekends friday through sunday my walking uh is this initially about um or has been consistent so somewhere between eight thousand and twelve thousand steps lately sometimes i hit about fifteen thousand but it's usually because i'm trying to do a post lunch walk for about 10 minutes i'm also trying to rest approximately 90 seconds to two and a half minutes between sets but sometimes i will pair exercises to make my workouts more efficient for example deadlifts with overhead press and bench press with rows current goals at this time are bone health improving glucose control maintaining or reducing my current abdominal and thigh size so i don't have to continue to buy larger clothes continuing to build or maintain strength without adding unnecessary body mass So with that, I want to know how should I be approaching my nutrition? How should I structure my strength training given my current plateau, earlier workout time, and slight calorie deficit? Should I continue with three lifting days per week or would you recommend a different training frequency? And what would you recommend the best programming approach would be for my next year to prioritize bone health, glucose control, strength, and maintaining my current body size? Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for- Very thorough, Julia. For calling in. I'm sorry, like I told you. That's right. It's probably everything you want and then some. No, it's perfect. Very good. And I could tell you listen to the podcast. Yes, yes. Which is great. You're doing a great job. So how, since starting the microdose of Terzepatide, has that had any impact on your fasting glucose? I've only taken two doses. It's been 98 to 100. So nothing like significant because I check it every morning. Tell me a little bit about your diet. I know you're vegan. And you're consuming between 25 to 2700 calories. What does that look like? What makes up your diet? So breakfast is oatmeal with mixed nuts, a Brazil nut for selenium, a fourth a cup of mulberries, some soy milk, and then two scoops of a plant-based protein powder that has no added sugar or anything. Lunch is a very large salad. That is- Two cups of lettuce, a bunch of vegetables, half an avocado, homemade dressing. What else did we throw in there? It's usually about a seven to 900 calorie salad, including a cup of chickpeas that I air fry. Sometimes prunes, sometimes like a homemade muffin I make, peanut butter, like something along those lines. Dinner is a lot of vegetables, at least one or two servings. There are two, at least two cups of that. And then some sort of, I'm trying to think, like this week we made, I made sweet potato burgers. So I do a homemade bun. And then I did a lentil salad and braised cabbage with apples and an energy protein bite that's made out of peanut butter, some protein powder, almond flour, flaxseed. So we make pretty much everything, but I'm hitting between 30 and 60 grams of protein per meal. And you had said that you don't eat animal proteins and it's because it affects your blood lipid levels and they start to get a little haywire. So I have lipoprotein A, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. So it's a genetic cholesterol that our liver makes that then contributes to our arterial plaque formation. So I had a carotid. So even though I've been healthy for most of my life, my carotid ultrasound has my arterial age at 67. Okay. So because of that. I went to see a preventative cardiologist who then recommended a vegan diet to try and mitigate the risks that can come potentially with having higher cholesterol that is not genetic. We're going to say that. And then he's got me on some supplements and I do a repeat carotid. I did it two years ago. I have a repeat carotid that I have to do this fall to then see if it's either halted or potentially reversed with some of the supplements I'm on. So if that makes sense. So I started tracking. Like I wasn't food tracking until I went vegan with my husband because I wanted to make sure we were hitting all of our nutrition targets. So we use chronometer. I don't know if you know that app. So it's very specific. It'll break down fiber. It breaks down all your amino acids. So, you know, like we're out of the park for pretty much everything. So make sure we're getting all the nutrition with what we're eating. Okay. That's great. And then since switching to the diet, I know you haven't checked your carotid. Let's see if there's any changes or improvements. Have you noticed any changes in energy, vitality, strength, sleep, or is it all you sound like you've planned it pretty well. So I'm curious to see if there's any, any changes, positive or negative. Initially, I felt like I had more energy. I don't feel like the energy has been, you know, this is now going on a few years. I think the energy changes that I've had have been more related to thyroid. Because when they. Started me on the thyroid meds, things felt better. And then when things started to go off again, and when they bought my thyroid meds again, recently, I think it was April or May. Um, I told her like, I was starting to feel tired. I would do not get tired in the afternoons. I was starting to feel tired in the afternoons. I was freezing. Like my hands and my feet were cold all the time. Um, it just seems like, you know, constipation was worse, like all these different things that I felt like were more. Thyroid driven. So I don't think it's dietary related. If that. Makes sense. Yeah, it does. And are you supplementing with, uh, like essential amino acids, creatine, uh, your, your, maybe your B vitamins, some of the things that sometimes people can become deficient and even with a well-planned vegan diet. Yeah, I get, um, I get regular blood work, so all that's good, but I do do, uh, B12. I do a super B complex. I do vitamin D I do, um, omega threes. I do 10 grams of creatine daily. Awesome. Um, so I think all those bases are covered. Yes, they are. That's that's great. Um, and then just a kind of a personal question. Are you enjoying this process? Uh, because there's so, it sounds like you're, you're managing so many different things and you're counting so many things and I want to make sure it's not an additional stress on you. Um, I like the meal planning. I actually don't mind the tracking. Like that's not a big deal. Um, the supplements, I feel like we have it down. Um, I've. Worked out since I was 13 in some capacity. So the fitness thing, isn't something that's going anywhere. Um, like that's part of my life. I think if anything, if that's the one thing I would never want anybody to take away from me, if that makes sense, I mean, I know you guys are all along those lines. So, um, you know, kind of nutty, like really like going to the gym every day, even if it is just stretching or, or doing something like that. Good. So the, the one objective metric that I would pay closest attention to only because it's. Most strongly correlated with what you're most interested in, which is, uh, bone density and blood glucose, uh, would be strength. So it's, it's harder to be objective with, um, muscle gains. Uh, you can do desks, DEXA scans, but sometimes you can be more hydrated, less hydrated and simple muscle mass. Isn't, uh, as, as great of a predictor for those things as actual strength. So that's the objective we want to pay closest attention to, like. If you're getting stronger, you're probably doing a lot of things right. And if that continues on bone density moves in that same direction. And as you get stronger, you gain muscle, which is great. Uh, for blood glucose, one of the best ways to. And or maintaining her strength while she's in some sort of a cut and die. Cause one of the things you've done really good too, has been able to reverse diet and get your calories up to a very healthy place. So, uh, the, one of the things I hear too is, you know, wanting to sounds like reduce a little bit of body fat or, you know, inches around the waist or whatever. So. Being able to reduce calories. And be able to maintain, maintain strength would actually be a really good win for us. Yeah. Now maps aesthetic is a lot of volume, even with the reduction. I like mass 15. You like going to the gym every day. You said it already. I would put you on a map. Yeah, I go every day. Well, and I figured you guys were probably going to put me on a 15. So the only reason I did maps aesthetic is because I bought your, your bundle and already. I had already done maps performance and then I did maps. I mean, you did the right thing with it, by the way. You did. It's incredible. Obviously you listen to the podcast. We could tell because of how you modified it on your own, uh, without any coaching from us is great. But just to kind of break it down for you. So, you know, I'm trying to recall maps aesthetics. He's typically like three exercises per large body part. Even if you cut down the sets to three, you're doing nine sets, three days a week per body part, which is still high volume or even, uh, you know, six, three times a week would be high volume, uh, per body part, um, for most people. So, so that's. That's even with the reduction in volume now going, uh, to maps 15, what you'll probably notice with no other changes. So no other changes in diet, no other changes, anything else. Well, you'll probably notice is by the second week strength increases. And if that happens, we're on the right track. Yeah. And I think that's probably what's going to happen. And I think, I guess I was, you know, I really looked forward to anabolic and then to not see any strength gains over that. I was kind of surprised because I, again, I was reverse dieting. I was eating the 3000 to 32. 200 calories. And I just, I had never done full body days. That was my first program doing, um, like everything. I've always done some sort of split or something a little bit different. Um, so I'm not quite sure why, unless that's more of that hormonal piece, I would guess going through the thyroid thing, change of time, and also going through that a second time. Let me ask you the difference between what was the difference for you between phase one and let's say phase. Three, because they're very different. Did you notice any changes between the two strength? Yeah. Either strength or energy, uh, phase three is much more volume than phase one. So I just had a curiosity. Um, I don't remember. Okay. This was back in like March or April, maybe may. I'm trying to remember exactly. Cause I'm on phase three of anabolic right now, but now at the volume I'm doing like the full workout. cut into two so like there's the three workouts a week i'm doing like half of a workout And then the next day I'll do a half workout, but I take a day off. You get what I mean? But I don't remember. So with anabolic, I know my least favorite is probably the five by fives. I don't know if that's part of anabolic or just in general, because it's not a way that I was accustomed to training before you guys. So I really have to wrap my head around being safe, I guess, as I do it or feeling comfortable so that I don't get hurt. So I'm always, that's kind of in the back of my mind. So like the one program, maybe it was anabolic. Instead of doing a barbell back squat, I just modified it to a back squat because then I felt like I had enough control where if I don't, I would just sit down. It's not a big deal. Perfectly fine. I'd like to send you mass 15 and I'd like to see how you respond to that and just follow it as it's laid out. And I, like I said, if by week two or three, you're getting stronger, we're moving in the right direction. And a good goal would be based off of your. What kind of annual goals, since you asked that setting up would be to not manipulate diet yet, stick with the way you're eating, just change the program. If all things go well and we start to see strength and then you still feel like you want to see some body composition change, you're in a healthy enough calories that we could just put you in a calorie reduction for a little while while staying on mass 15. And then remember when we do something like that, really the goal is just to maintain strength. If we maintain strength in a calorie deficit, that's a huge win. I wouldn't expect strength gains to continue. To progress while I'm also putting you in a deficit, which is why also I think keeping the diet where it is now gets reap some benefits from added strength. If the programming was the right program for you. And then if it only then, if you start to, and maybe you'll see body composition change just from that, which I wouldn't manipulate calories. But if let's say we've continued through mass 15, you did build some strength, but you still have that. I wish I had a couple, I wanted to inch off my way still, or I wish I was a little bit leaner. Then I'd put you in a calorie deficit with the goal of trying to maintain strength. Then what calories should I be keeping at this point? I think stay where you're at 2700, where you're at right now is what you're doing. I love, I love too, how you're undulating it. I know now you'll be in the gym every day. And so, you know, you can, but undulating the way you are is perfectly fine. Yeah. So you can kind of average. Yeah. A little more. So aim for 25 to 2700. Yes. Okay. Yep. And then if, so I keep going at what point? During the strength gains, what I decide to then go on a cut, like how much would I, would I run the whole program? And then the second time I run the whole program, in fact, if appetite increases and strength increases during the program, I actually might bump your calories again. So if yeah, and, and, and play the reverse diet. So if you're seeing strength gains and appetite, you feel increase, feed that, um, that's what, and then at the end of the program, I'd say, then let's go into a, uh, a cut. Cause then we're cutting from an even higher place, which would be even more advantageous. And what would I cut to? If you're, if you're averaging 2600 calories, a 2200 calories would be a sufficient cut. Yeah. For how long? For a whole program for a month? Yeah. I think a whole program would work just fine. These are great questions by the way, Julie, I think I can, yeah, you're, yeah, this is great. So yeah, I would go a whole, a whole cycle of MAPS 15 and then follow a different MAPS 15 if it worked and you got stronger. We have a lot of MAPS 15, uh, versions. So we have like MAPS 15 muscle mommy and strong, and then follow it again in a cut if everything worked well and you got stronger. Where that would look different is where that would look different is if you actually reverse diet during this process right now. So if we see strength and appetite increase, and I get you back up to say 29, 3000 calories, then you could pull all the way down to say 25, it's a 500 calorie deficit and you're eating more and we'll see some of those results. So really aiming for that 300 to 500. Calorie deficit after we've gone through 15, trying to build strength and trying to reverse diet. Are you, by the way, Julie, are you, are you wearing a CGM for the glucose? No, I had a, my provider gave me a CGM, uh, I had two, so I did it twice. Uh, I didn't really learn that much. Okay. Um, it just seems to be the fasting. That's primarily the biggest piece is where I'm having issues. Uh, it would be also like if I bananas or oranges. Okay. Or if I don't move after lunch. So that's why I try and do a little bit of some activity for five to 10 minutes after lunch, because then I would see my numbers start to go up to like one 60, uh, instead of if I move right away, it's like one 20 was where I would peak at and maybe one 30 and then it would go back down. Okay. I'm not quite sure cause I'm on a super low dose GLP. I don't know if they're going to titrate it up. If they want to see. Like how long am I going to be with us? I don't know if that's going to influence my appetite, um, microdose might in a way that's kind of imperceptible. Uh, but I, I would be very careful with someone like you who is trying to improve bone density to go on a high dose of a GLP. Well, and that's not the goal. I told you, I tried to, I mean, I put it off for a year and now it's just kind of like nothing's working. Um, and I don't know how to fix that piece. I'm just not wanting to trip to being. Diabetic as I try and get all this hormone stuff and under control. Look into Berberine if you are, if you have Berberine, how's that helping? Is that helped anything? Okay. All right. Let's see what happens with the strength training. What I want to do. Julie's I want you all back on. And I was just going to, I was just gonna ask her, Julie, are you familiar with our concierge program? Um, I've heard you guys talk about it. It's just, um, we're in the process of buying a house and then, um, some of the medical stuff that I've had going on lately has. Uh, escalated the bills a little bit. So the concierge is, it's not good right now, but it would be something I would be interested in. Yeah, I know. I'm just listening to you. I'm like, you're such a good candidate for this. You come with so many great questions. Like you're the type of person who I think we don't always talk to people about it. Uh, cause I think most people need a lot more detailed coaching and more handholding. Um, you're so thorough detail that, you know, checking in once a month with the coach who's just kind of overseeing what you're doing and making those tweaks. Uh, you're just a great candidate for it. Yeah. Are you able to progressively overload? Like, I know you're a little bit nervous about like the five by five protocol and like adding weight is adding weight, something you were able to kind of like gradually progressively do, or is that something still you're a little nervous about? Um, it kind of depends on the day. So, um, so like for my five by fives, the highest I can get is a 45 plate on each side for the box squat. That's great. That's really good. That's really good. No, I mean, I guess. I've worked out for so long and, um, it depends like during maps strong, I was doing overhead press or clean and press. I have to remember, cause this was a while ago with 60 and like today I did an aesthetic or because I'm doing the, you do that and then you pair it with the rear delt. I just did 30 this morning or just a 30 overhead press regular because I was like, and part of it's too, it's, it's 5:00 AM. Um, I don't know. Even working out at 7:30 compared to five is completely different. Totally. Yeah. You just said something that gives a little more context to this conversation too. And I think the reason why Justin was asking, cause he's just curious to like, are you like barely putting any weight on your, your, your pretty strong already too. So that's good weight, uh, you know, squatting 1 35 is very good weight, uh, for any female client of mine. And so that's also something to consider too, is, uh, not, I don't necessarily think that you're at peak strength. You already got a lot of those beginner gains that, you know, people who just get started. So seeing continued increase, like expecting you're just going to keep seeing increase on the, on a squat like that. I mean, us being able to maintain 1 35 is a, is a very, very huge win too. Well, and I guess, cause it's not full range, then I, I kind of just credit it a little bit. That's still true. That's still good. When I do, I'm having a good regular day and I'm doing like an eight to 12 rep range, it would be 35 on each side. I'm having a good day. That's still 25. On your side is good. Yeah. Julie, that's good weight. That's really good. Yeah. 130 pounds. Yes. You're doing that. You're getting after it. I had no idea you were lifting that. I would, I would have guessed just a lower, just based on this conversation. Uh, that's, that's good weight. That's strong. You're strong. Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to have you back on in 30 days. If that's okay. I want to see how you do in four weeks on maps. 15. Okay. All right. And then based off of that, a little bit, cause my work schedule, but that's fine. That's okay. The time is better for us. Yeah. 30 to 45 days. Something like that. Whatever. But we'll have you back on, check back in and make any changes if we need to. Okay. I appreciate it. You got it. All right. Thank you. All right. Thanks so much guys. You got it. Doing what you do. Thanks. Bye. Bye. That was good. Thorough. And I'll tell you what, for people listening right now, uh, these are fun clients. Yeah. Why is it fun? Because the answer isn't so obvious. Although I do feel the reduction of volume is going to give her the strength that she's gains. Uh, because she's got so many things covered. This is one of those clients where it's like, let's test this and see what happens because it's a little bit more, uh, of a challenge. Well, we've all, I mean, we've experienced this personally. We experienced those clients. A lot of clients too. It's like, uh, and I think this just highlight, uh, the fact that she's as strong as she is also kind of points to this too, in my opinion, she's already kind of reaching kind of, so her volume is, is higher than what you would think 130 pound girl, her age would be doing because she's actually probably moving some good weight. Yeah. And I bet math 15 similar to how we all experienced even mass 15 for ourselves. Like, oh my God, I got stronger in mass 15. Well, yeah. Because at the, at this point when you've been lifting that long and you've already reaped a lot of the benefits just adding more volume is the opposite of what you probably need to do and so yeah i think she's gonna see great benefits from that our next caller is dave from georgia what's up dave how you doing dave what's happening hey how's it going guys good man how can we help you man you know i wish i could remember exactly what i typed in as my uh question request when i made it but uh i pretty much know the gist of it can i give you a little bit of background yeah yeah wing it um so i'm 50 i just turned 50 this past may and i grew up an athlete and then when i got to high school started down the wrong path with some drugs and alcohol kind of went a different direction with it uh things got out of control i got cleaned up and finished college when i was 22 got back in shape uh everything was going really well some life things happened life events kind of went back down that wrong road and started drinking quite a bit again you got married had four kids and uh in 2019 i woke up uh weighing 350 pounds and was really unhappy depressed uh anxiety through the roof just not being the husband father and human i wanted to be and that i knew that i could be um had had some help with some friends and uh found a gym local gym on facebook that was you know 20 first 20 men to respond kind of get a free shot to uh interview and go for a weight loss challenge uh i entered that just figured i might as well give it a shot i've tried everything else and for some reason some of the folks that i met at this gym uh really kind of clicked with me and everything kind of went from there um i wound up losing 100 pounds over the next three years and after that kind of got in a position where my friend who ran the gym who he became my friend he ran the gym he left the gym and we're now workout buddies so we work out three four times a week strength training um i recently listening to your podcast over the last couple of years kind of thinking about some different things got a dexa scan done um i'm in i'm in a pretty good place guys i really am i'm happy with myself we're for the first time in a really long time uh coach my son in football coach my son in baseball my daughter plays softball for high school and so i'm kind of where i need to be as a husband and a father again uh good employee successful at work just happy with who i am but it's time for me i think to take it to the next level so what i've been thinking about were uh items that you talk about like your vo2 max uh things of that nature spoke to spoke about that with the guy who did the dexa scan kind of opened my eyes to a few different things and visceral fat and how i get rid of that kind of stuff and in a place right now where i'm six foot tall 255 pounds body fat was 26 percent um muscle mass is you know i think he said top 80 top 85 top 90 to mend my age so again in a good spot but really want to take it to the next level and i hate cardio i love lifting weights i love being strong i've always been a bigger guy um have kind of toyed with the idea of you know quote unquote becoming a runner uh just not for me and uh really just wanted to kind of hear what you guys had to say about maybe some suggestions i've listened to the reverse dieting part and not really quite have my my head wrapped around that just you know i'm just kind of like i'm just kind of like i'm just kind of like i'm i'm just kind of like i'm just kind of like i'm just kind of like i'm just kind of like i'm just just yet and i think i know the answers guys to be clear like in terms of you know dialing in my diet being more strict or at least more making a concerted effort towards my diet and getting some more cardio worked in but i love the way that you guys really attack issues when callers bring them up and was just really excited to get on the show and hear what you guys might have to say and maybe inject a little bit more life into my current uh plan and maybe give me a little bit more life to take a couple couple steps forward yeah thanks thanks for calling in man um i like i like that increase your vo2 max i like that a lot uh because it's a performance goal performance goals tend to be better overall than aesthetic goals performance goals can contribute to better aesthetics but oftentimes when we chase aesthetics we sacrifice things like performance and sometimes health so i like that you said that i heard that you don't like to run and you don't like to do cardio i feel you uh but an easy way to increase your vo2 max would be to do some form of activity that gets you to breathe hard but do it do something you enjoy doing like play something pickleball yeah what do you got i'm a big pickleball fan bro now if you haven't done it i tried pickleball this summer and i didn't mind it i mean that would be the that would be the key right there you like lifting weights something fun you got a workout partner uh do something that involves a little community uh friendship or your kids or kids so you're not counting you know i'm doing 30 minutes of this exercise you're out and you're just moving your body you're more likely to be consistent you're more likely to to get better results doing that you're more likely to forget that you're working out when you're doing that that'd be it man once a week once a week something that gets you to move that you enjoy uh with people that you enjoy being around would be the only thing i would say you could add you could also there's there's there's there's ways to improve this too in in shorter bouts that are paired with your i i loved um post this is i use this a lot when i was um and it also had the benefits on the vo2 max it also had benefits on uh leaning out losing body fat post workout i would get uh do 12 minutes of hit cardio and what that looked like is uh i'd pick you know stair master elliptical treadmill whatever and for literally 15 to 20 seconds i get after it and let my and my heart rate goes as basically as hard as i can you work up to that so don't go full-on sprinting i like things like an elliptical or stair master to start with so you don't pull a muscle trying to do something crazy or a bike uh but you go after it as hard as you can for 15 seconds and then allow that heart rate to come all the way back down it'll probably take you when you first start doing this a minute to two minutes maybe in a little bit longer to feel your heart rate come all the way back down and then do it again and you just do 12 minute 12 minute blocks of that a couple times a week paired with what sal's doing some play on the weekend with your kids or something like pickleball or something you like doing and you'll really improve that yeah you'll you'll make you'll make big headway uh on that vo2 max by doing that and then the other thing i would it sounds like you've already kind of aware of it like tightening up the diet uh would be and i know if you've listened to the show you've probably heard us the easiest thing man is i just with someone like you i just think we're just going to track protein and my first rule to you is you hit that you eat that first and always do that first and that seems to take care of a lot of the things uh and then if there's anything egregious that you're aware of that you do like if you're uh you know a couple times a week you pound the ice cream late at night or there's you know a treat that you always do that's mine that's why i call that one out uh so whatever if there's something major and egregious then probably tapering off of that but then really just focusing on the protein i think takes care of a lot of the problems yeah i love what you guys said about the aesthetics because i think i'm not i'm not a psychiatrist but i kind of feel like that might be what got me into a little bit of a lull in my you know going from 350 pounds to 250 pounds was a huge improvement right and just being miserable with you know how i felt and how i looked and then getting to a place where man i i really like the way i look and and being 50 i'm assuming you know i think this is the second part of the question i had originally sent in the elasticity right like so i've lost a ton of weight and i've got kind of loose skin going on that i don't know how to get rid of i don't know if you know eventually surgery or if there's other ways to kind of tighten that up but yeah like again looking in the mirror i went from 350 to 250 and i feel great about myself and love what i see in the mirror well then over the next year to two years of kind of seeing that same thing it's kind of put me back and well now i'm not so happy with what i see and i and i lose sight of where i came from and what i've gotten to and i've i've kind of lost sight of that and i look at i just i want i want to take it to the next step but you're right like for me the aesthetic part is really what gets me in trouble because depressed or i i don't really like the way that i look again and but but the aesthetic part is it's it's what i focus on but it's not what motivates me i don't know if that makes sense or not it's good i what i i what we currently do is we do a push pull legs uh method at the gym so we'll have a push day a pull day and then a leg day and then the you know the fourth day is some kind of some kind of fill in whether it's just a deadlift day or you know something like that but i've i liked what i heard recently with the uh upper lower yeah breakdown that you guys do so just wondering if you guys would mix up what i'm doing strength training wise i would i would love to give that to you i think i think uh if you haven't followed one of our programs this also could be a a really nice thing for you we we all tend to do this when we create our own programs including us okay with all of our experience is kind of getting this lull of doing the same kind of things all the time and one of the best things to kind of spark change and and strength and and simply following a routine that you didn't write or didn't create and so i think the uh upper lower split would be great for you yeah or uh i mean because you brought up vo2 max as your goal like either our performance or strong has like a conditioning element to it which again maybe programming it in there would help mentally uh you'd be able to tackle you know some of that conditioning and kind of get into it uh but but really just shaking it up and doing something completely different a lot of times uh will help the psyche i love that justin if if if what i said doesn't resonate with you where you're like i'm not going to go get on that thing 12 minutes after my workouts and i don't want to play pickleball uh but i'll follow up program then i would lean towards justin but if what i said about just you know making a habit a couple times out of the week to do the 12 minutes to hit afterwards and then what sal said you know pick a day up with the kids of doing physical activity or play pickleball once if that resonates with you then i think you could do an upper lower split with that paired with it would do really well if you know yourself and you're like i'm probably not going to do that shit then i would take justin's advice and just follow like a performance because it's built into that yep yeah yeah okay well man guys again i really appreciate you having me on the show i love listening to you it's it's been it's been really good for me especially over the last year to kind of get back moving in the right direction so love your messages love what you share and just love love love everything about it so thank you for helping me be a part of it dave let us let us send you one of those programs uh of the two what upper lower or performance which one resonates more with what you're where you want to go well i think based off of what you were talking about i think that throwing in a weekly day of pickleball and or jumping on that stair master elliptical for 10 to 15 minutes after a workout i think i can do that okay cool cool so let's we'll send you up we'll send you upper lower then upper yeah we'll send you upper lower all that and then uh go kiss that wife for sticking by you that whole time yeah hey she just got me a whoop too for my birthday so that's where this whole vo2 max is coming into play because now i get to see every day with how i'm tracking and i need to make some changes nice all right bro thanks thanks dave hey thanks guys take care you got it you know i uh i think if more if more people um just went to have fun and played you really wouldn't have to worry so much about yeah in the sustainability and that is so much higher you're just you're there to see your friends you're hanging out you're having a good time and before you know we did it for an hour you don't even realize with the work you put in that's right that's right our next caller is alissa from michigan hey welcome back how you doing how you doing i'm good give us an update what's happening okay so previously you guys told me to focus strictly on strength since then i've been following maps 15 powerlift and have improved i want to preface that i was in italy for about a month all right so my training and eating were basically just pasta and no training just walking which is even more impressive that we saw again which is great i know um as of july 19th my one rep maxes are for bench 160 deadlift 225 and squat 205 why nice um i'm confident i was in a bit of a surplus during that time and my body probably needed the rest so i guess it kind of makes sense i don't know yeah um but i'm extremely excited to keep following this program as i did and this past week i redid these one rep maxes and currently for bench they're 165 deadlift 225 and squat um i'm confident i was in a bit of a surplus during that time and my body probably needed the deadlift 255 and squat 225 i'm eating about 25 to 3 000 calories 2500 000 sorry a day and maintaining 10 000 steps a day i do still run a little bit but it's down to like below 10 miles a week you and when i first started it was like 25 miles a week so i'm so happy you guys changed my life you feel better don't you by the way uh to see increases in all three main lists is amazing typically i'm like when i'm training somebody i'm like oh my god i'm like we trying to focus on just one of those lifts going up to see across the board is awesome yeah yeah and and it says there you feel amazing you feel a lot better huh i do yeah i like being able to eat food and not think about it constantly because that's kind of how i was in the beginning i also started pursuing a little bit of personal training on the side i'm halfway through the issa program i don't know i i feel like i got the bug like i couldn't stop thinking about it hey great so far i'm so excited to read about it and that's exciting you've changed my life alissa what's your main job what do you do for what's your main how do you get your your how do you pay your bills well i'm 21 so i don't really pay bills but i'm studying construction management i'm going to graduate in december and i'm currently an intern at a construction company as a project engineer okay good part-time cool but you don't want to my hours but you like fitness yeah i do all right listen keep keep us in mind yeah we love hiring new trainers and i know i was looking at your website and i was kind of like oh i could film a video of myself i like filming videos yeah well stay the course i think you're on the perfect routine i think the mass 15 uh style workouts are great keep doing it i think in combination with a little bit of running you're doing diet and everything i think you're doing phenomenal and then keep studying and if you love fitness and you want to be a trainer this is one of the best places to work and if you need them if you're a huge fan of the show and you know our those are the kind of people we like to hire have you been have you found the uh trainer podcast we have with our trainers no but i know it's called elite training yeah yeah elite trainer podcast on youtube and you'll hear our coaches uh talking all about personal training so uh if you're into it and you're liking it you'll like that content too so listen check that out and then i'm definitely gonna dive into that yeah yeah awesome i love it it's been amazing awesome i'm excited for you yeah so which mass 15 did we give you to do was it mass 15 power lift do you remember it was power lift all right yeah i'm gonna are you you're almost done with it aren't you yeah all right i'll send you another one let's go 15 uh muscle mommy oh yeah and so thank you so much you got another 15 to follow you got it yeah and then you just keep in touch with us okay i will hey you never know yeah exactly i hope i catch a video from you soon i do too all right all right all right thank you for everything my dad says hi by the way okay awesome i said hi yeah yeah awesome thank you great job great job thank you alissa thank you uh great news yeah great news yeah she was that's great she was running a lot she was doing a lot of training she was walking a lot and her calories are low yeah yeah and she was worried about hormones if i'm if i recall maybe i'm wrong but if i recall she had issues with being regular with her period maybe i don't know i don't know if that was part of her story i but there was there was uh like she was like what's going on what do i feel this way and it was just she was just over i mean uh 90 day check-in 30 days of that was traveling not working out and eating it's really sick so 60 days uh of just following match 15 rest and by the way too already a very strong person so consistently lifting already strong see a increase across all three major lifts huge huge win our next caller is amber from michigan hi amber hi guys how you doing good how can we help you oh my gosh this is crazy i've been listening to you guys for like nine years so you guys have been through a lot with me we made it yeah um so basically i'm just feeling really frustrated because i have been working out for so long um i started getting your guys's programs probably about seven years ago um so i just don't feel like i look like all the effort that i put in for some context i right now i own a cleaning business for six years now so i clean two to three houses a day um with it being summer here in michigan i'm playing beach volleyball three to four times a week um and i have a hard time even keeping up with like maps 15 so i go back and forth on like am i doing too much am i not doing enough am i eating too much or am i not eating enough and i put in all the effort but feel like i don't look like i should with all the effort i put in all right good question so i'm going to read through some of the stuff in your email if that's okay yeah sure okay so uh okay you mentioned you're clean to two three houses a day plus playing beach volleyball three to four days a week i'm assuming you're out there for a couple hours when you do that yeah okay and you got two teenage daughters oh yeah and it says your life is very full and demanding uh-huh and now it says running a business and i want to correct i don't know if this is accurate if we got the right email it says you're 47 37 37 i was gonna say i'm like you don't look 47 holy cow well i hope not so first off you do look like you work out uh but you're doing a lot yeah you're doing a lot so cleaning houses is if you let me ask you a question if you took one of your friends that works an office job to work with you for one day yeah well they die how do you feel so yeah what you're doing is akin to a workout that's your job then you're playing volleyball three to four days a week yeah that's intense yeah yeah so you're you're you're redlining and i don't even i haven't even asked you about your sleep which uh i'd actually let me ask you that how is your sleep how consistent is it how many hours a night you're getting um it's typically pretty good seven or eight hours okay okay i also i want to take a guess at diet stuff because this is just just taking a shot in the dark this is what happens sometimes when somebody's got a lot like this and they feel like they do put a lot of work and effort in is they are eating really clean or really low calorie and then they have these off the rails and then they're really clean really off the rails and inconsistencies with diet how would you rate your diet actually i don't go off the rails really because i enjoy eating healthy and eating clean just because i like to feel good and being with my work like i can't go to work feeling like shit so i really take pride in eating healthy and i mean mine's more like 90 10 it's not super strict like if i want something i'll take a couple bites but that's really all i need a couple of bites and I'm good. So I don't really go off the rails. That's good. That's really good. How about tracking like protein? Do you, are you aware of what you're consuming? So tracking's not really good for me. Um, I actually had eating disorders for like 15 years and you guys helped me get through that. So thank you. Um, but I did try to track, um, and I know that I get plenty of protein. Like I can literally snack on chicken breast. So it's not an issue. Um, but tracking is just not good for me. Would you say you, because of your past, you have a tendency then to maybe eat on the lower calorie side or are you, would you think you eat a good, a good amount of calories? Um, I don't restrict myself. Like I eat when I'm hungry. So it's just hard to know if it's enough or too much. Okay. But we, uh, but you're eating protein. You're not restricting. Yeah. You're getting decent sleep. Uh, you're just really active. You're really, really active. Yeah. Bring it down a little bit more. Yeah. So, and I, it sounds like your beach volleyball with your friends is something you really enjoy doing. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't want to cut that down your, your work. We're not going to cut down cause that's your job. Yeah. Even maps 15 is a lot of volume when you add it to all that stuff on a consistent basis. Yeah. I recently, a couple of weeks ago, switch to, uh, anabolic cause I finished 15. Um, and I'm not doing the trigger shot sessions because I just usually don't have the energy to do it. I'm dead. Um, and I'm fitting in one full body a day, which is the one day off I get a week because in summer it's crazy. Like even Saturdays I'm working right now cause I have Airbnb and stuff, but. Okay. And so you're doing one full body workout a week. Yeah. How's that feel? It's been okay so far. I just, that's probably what we put you. I know that's, there's two options right there. Yeah. Two options. I would recommend either one full body workout a week, one exercise per body part, three sets each or, or maps 15, two or three days a week. That's it. So you mass 15, but like two days a week or three days a week and that's it. Yeah. And base it off of how you feel. You don't need a ton of strength training. No, you really don't. Yeah. Uh, especially when you're doing so much activity for muscle preservation. Yeah. Amber, can you, can you recall for me, uh, what yesterday's full day of eating was like, just run me through breakfast, lunch, dinner, or what you ate? Sure. I would love to. Uh, so for breakfast, I'm usually eating Dave's killer bread, two slices, three eggs, and two sausage links. And then being on the go for work, I'm usually eating a banana RX bar, um, a pack of nuts, and then I'll get home around two or three eat a meal, which is usually like a chicken vegetable. And maybe some quinoa. And then I have dinner, which is also some kind of form of chicken and carb and veggie. And then when I get home from volleyball, which is usually like nine or 10 o'clock at night, I meet in like a yogurt cup with some stuff in it. Okay. Yeah. I'm just doing it in my head real quick. And it's not, it's, it's, uh, I thought it would be lower. It's not bad. No. Yeah. Yeah. See, that's where I'm struggling. Like, I feel like it's a decent amount, but yeah, you're just right, honey. You're just, you're literally redlining. You're redlining. No. So let me put it this way three to four days a week for just a mom who works a desk job of beach volleyball. Cause that's very active. You're playing with friends, competitive. That's a lot by itself. Yeah. Now you add on top of that, your job, which is activity. You're doing a ton. Yeah. So you can't add that much strength training to your routine. Literally it would be, it would be mass 15, maybe two a week. Or like I said, one full body workout, you know, one exercise, per body part, uh, where you're doing kind of compound lifts and that's it. Those are kind of your two options. If you already have maps 15, the way I would do it is because you got it laid out in front of you is you would do two workouts. So you'd follow the two in a row. Then the following week you'd move to the next two. And that's it. If you start to see strength gains and you feel good, we're moving in the right direction. Okay. That's your gauge. Do you think anabolic one day a week is okay? Maybe phase one, uh, maybe phase two, phase three would probably be too much. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I, I think you should try 15, two workouts a week. And I think if you did that, you'll probably notice more energy and strength. Okay. Yeah. Again, let me, again, let me just paint the context. You took a friend of yours who works a desk job, who's same age as you, and they followed you around and did your job for one day. They would be dead and sore after one day of work. Yeah. Not including go home and take care of the kids. Not including the kids and the volleyball. And my own house and all that. That's right. So, so you're just, you're just doing a lot. Just factor it all in. I know. You're just doing a lot, a lot, hun. And I think adding a bunch, adding strength training is just, you're just overflowing with the amount of stress you're putting on, on your body. So a little bit of strength training is going to go a long way for you. Yeah. Do you, do you know what? Let your body recover. I'm curious. Have you ever used it? I'm just curious on your like total steps. You probably do a ton of steps in a day. Oh, probably, but I don't have a way to track them. Yeah. Yeah. Probably a good 20. Yeah. That would be, that would be my guess would be like 20,000, especially on volleyball days. Amber, I've trained people with similar like activity levels, typically blue collar workers. And the amount of volume that got them results was so shockingly low. And I had to keep scaling back. I remember when I first became a trainer and I would get these clients and I'd scale back, scale back, scale back, scale back. And it was very minimal before they started to see any progress. And it was just cause they were just moving. They were moving all the time. And they were so used to moving all the time that to them, they're like, Oh, I'm just normal. Yeah. This is just what I do. And it was, I had to scale it way down. So I, it's also my, my mental therapy go, you know, working out too. So yeah. So I get it. I literally think, well, you do a lot of activity already. I don't think you need more. No, I know you might need, I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, forgive me for saying this. You might need some time to not do anything and kind of sit quietly massage or something, which you probably don't ever do. Yeah. I don't got time for that. Let's try maps 15, do two workouts a week. Uh, by week two or three, you'll probably see some strength gains. Okay. Okay. All right. I'm gonna try it. I would love to try it. Let's do it. You want to get, you want to get back on in 60 days so we can talk to you and see what happens. Oh, I would love that. Yeah. All right. Cool. You got it. And great. Thanks guys. Congratulations on the success of your business. It sounds like you're doing well. Thank you. Appreciate that. Bye. Bye. Yeah. And just, just for people listening, if the average person, uh, who works out two or three days a week went to play beach volleyball for two hours, those houses and play three, four days a week. So this, this becomes, uh, exponentially tricky too, because of a past eating disorder and what that could trigger to have her tracking wing or doing those things. But I'm, she, she rattled that off fast. I was trying to do the math really quick in my head, but I'm, I'm, I'm guesstimating in the low two thousands. So it's not bad, but with her activity, that's why I'm asking 20,000 steps. Okay. That house working out volleyball, two kids, that is a lot. And even, uh, even more so in the context of moderate to low calories, someone like that at her, she's still young. Someone that could be eating 3000 plus calories easy. And I know that wasn't 3000 plus calories. So, uh, you know, that this is, uh, either, either one, well, both is probably what needs to happen. We probably need to see a reduction of volume training and have a slight bump in calories through, um, hard to say guarantee that without getting a little bit more granular with the diet. But based on what she says, it doesn't sound like egregious to the average person, but she is not the average person. 20,000 steps or more a day, uh, is a lot of activity. Um, cleaning a house. I did, I watched two cars, uh, this weekend and I was like, my low back was sore for like two days. I'm like, come on. And that's, she's doing that every day. Yeah. Every day that kind of bending over reaching. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's taxing even on somebody who considers themselves fit and strong. And so I, I think she's, I think she's under eating, um, and over training and over training. And so I think a little bit of both would be ideal. Probably right. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's mind pump media. Thank you for listening to mind pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your performance, check out our discounted RGB super bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. 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