34. Are ADHD supplements a SCAM? Dietitian Tara breaks down the science & myths

Hi, Vestys. We are back for season two after three months off. We're so excited and you can now watch your ADHD Vestys podcast episodes on YouTube. We've finally started filming them. We are uploading them every week. So head across now, look for us on YouTube or there's a link in the description of this podcast episode. And this podcast episode is brought to you by our brand new SnackHacker. Over 300 of you have already gone and downloaded it. It's created by Tara to help you with that feeling you get when you open the fridge and you've got no idea what to get and you're just overwhelmed. I have been using it and I'm absolutely obsessed with it. So go and check it out on future ADHD.com and on to the episode. There's a protein powder and it's just a generic protein powder and you can pop your label on it and it's as easy as that. Company A can charge $200 because the person marketing it to you is an influencer and influencer and person B is charging, you know, 10% of what person A is charging. So for the exact same product. So we want to be aware of these marketing techniques. Hello and welcome to your ADHD besties, the podcast for people who are re-recording this episode because they deleted somehow the track from the last episode. Yeah, we have very sad about this today. But you know what, we move forward. Yep, we're recording it the night before it goes out. We are. ADHD is a nothing if not inconsistent. I'm Tara Brousseau, Dietitian and Diagnosed ADHD. And I'm Grace Kuma, Founder of Future ADHD, and Australian Prosper. Wow. Tell us. No one saw this coming. I wasn't prepared for that. Tell us the listeners why you're an Australian Prosper. Well, you know, it all happens so far. It really did. You didn't even train. No, I just woke up with the wind in my hair and the salt in my blood and. hanging ten back. No, I so we discovered my actually my agent discovered last week that when you go on Amazon to look for my book, "The ADHD Focus Friend" in Google it. A very interesting bio comes up. It's so intense. It's like a AI photo of you. It's called the biography of Grace Kuma. And then it says at the bottom Australian professional surfer. You are just throwing shuckers out, left, right, and centre. They know me well, clearly. Okay, before we go any further. Yep. I would like to caveat. Yes. Do not go and search for this book because if you search for the biography of Grace Kuma pro surfer, then she is going to have an even harder time taking it off Amazon because the publisher, Smith Publisher. Famous Publishing House. Smith Publishing House is going to have more traction on it and have more interest in keeping it up. So don't go on search for it. We will. Screenshot it and we will be popping it in our highlights. So it will be there. Even if you're listening to this in six months time, go to the highlights. And it will just be a little surfboard. You'll know what to look for. It's Grace. In six months time, no one's in all of them. I was going to say an Eric is begging you. My husband is begging you because he's in a warmer Amazon right now trying to get it taken down. He is in conversation with Bezos himself. Yeah. Look, Eric is taking a break from catching barrels to go talk to Bezos. He's a very busy guy. The surf is always calling. It is. Yes. Yeah, but this is wheat. It's my favorite thing that's ever happened. Yes. Crisis fake biography. And Grace being a surfer is just the most ridiculous thing I can think of. They did exactly no research on me in order to make this. I mean, being Australian, I think increases your chance of being a surfer by like 5,000 percent. Yeah, but not us. We are more. I'm afraid of sea horses. Yes. Grace. I can I can confirm anything that's not got fair. My favorite part is it's slightly off center, which I know being the person who does our Instagram post and then has you come in. And if I left something off center, I would be kicked to the curb. Yep. You wouldn't even be able to look at me. And the publisher's name is not centered on the biography. Oh, and that's the kind of it's an offense. If you're going to make a fake biography about me, at least send to things. I know right. And put me in an outfit I'm proud of. I mean, I'm fine with being a surfer. So yeah, this is a serious synthetic fiber that you're wearing. Yes. Yes. Wouldn't survive and perthey. Okay. So with that out of the way. Yes, babe. Tell me. How are you? And what was the most ADHD thing that you did this week? The most ADHD thing that I did this week is staring right at me right now. These brows. Those brows. So Grace asked me to do her eyebrows. And by asking me, I mean, I said, your eyebrows are too light. Let's tint them. Which we've done before. We have. And this is only her third time tinting them. Yep. But she had full trust in me because I've done it both of the times. And she really loved what I did. Hmm. Anyway, it had been a long day. We're chatting. I put the stuff on. Yep. I didn't read the directions because I can't fit it. No. I just know that it takes roughly 20 minutes. It's so lucky. It doesn't take roughly 20 minutes. It takes roughly 5 minutes. Yeah. And then I. I was lying there with blind confidence just thinking, this will be fine. In a while, but she knows what she's doing. So I sat up and Tara just looked at me with this look of like, oh shit. And I was like, what have you done? And I ran to the bathroom. They were very dark. They were very dark. And they were, they needed a good tidy up. So they looked even worse because they was just. But we paired it back. Yes. And now I'm so happy with them. But it was time to go for a while there. Yeah. I scrub my eyebrows with so much salicylic. Salicylic? Salicylic? Yes. I said that they were burning to get that off. But yeah, I'm actually so happy with that. Perfect now. Yeah. So it turns out you've just got to overdo them for 20 minutes and scrub them with like a. With a cleanser, a kind of bleach. Yes. And it's a recipe for perfection. That is the only problem is she couldn't get back in the alter for a couple of days. And she was really. Woods off the seahorses. She was dancing to get back into the waves. Okay. All right. Yes. What about you, Gracie Babe? How are you and what is the most ADHD thing that you did this week? I'm good. I had something that happened this week. Yes. I did not want to share on the part. No, no, no. I tried to think of a more a less embarrassing story. Yes. I couldn't think of one. Tell the story apart from having brooks your eyebrows. So I'm going to share this story in the hopes that it helps people feel seen. Yes. And it also might help posts feel seen. And with that gentle foreshadowing, it tells the story. So I had had a hectic week. My husband was away. I was keeping the ship running. Yes. But my brain was in a million places. It's two weeks till the end of the year. So like school stuff is next level insane. Yes. There's like rehearsals and teacher presents and secret center and all these interview things. So with that context. Yes. I was taking my three-year-old's preschool. Yes. After a very hectic drop off with my eldest at the bus, he almost missed the bus. I was very frazzled. And I made this fatal mistake of picking a different passport to usual. I usually just go into the same one. But I was like, ah, you know what this one's closer. And as I went in, I saw these two ballads or like metal kind of poles. Yes. And then as I got closer, I could only see one. And I thought, oh, maybe I imagined it. Maybe there is only one. Because, you know, spoiler, she didn't imagine it. Then there's a clunk, then there's a scrape. And I've hit the second one. Okay, we've all been there. So that wasn't the funniest part of the story. No. It's very funny, but it wasn't the funniest part. No. Well, there's two funny parts. One was that like a section of my car fell off, which is that part that you step on to get up into a forward drive. It's not a crucial part. Yeah. It's scraped off. So I had to let it literally like pick up the whole three-meter thing and like awkwardly like maneuver it into my car. All while feeling incredibly perceived and trying to act like I was totally cool and nothing was wrong. Yes. But then I get home and Tara laughed for a full 15 minutes without stopping. Because it was, it was funny by that point, but I was like still kind of a bit traumatized. But also like 20 minutes beforehand. Grace had pulled up next to me and started chatting to me and then suddenly just started rolling backwards because she'd forgotten to put her hand break. And then she comes home like 20 minutes later with no side step on her car. Sorry. My brain was in a million places. Oh my god, that day. So anyway, then the second funniest part of the story was that my three-year-old gets on the phone to daddy that night because we're first timing daddy. He's away with his family on the other side of Australia. And the first thing that my three-year-old says is, "Hi, daddy. Today, mummy crashed the car. Hit a punk." "Hummy crashed into a punk." She hit a punk. And it has become. It's our favourite word. Our favourite name for those who are long-term listeners will know is Bimbo Marshall. Yes. And now the word of the pot, our favourite word, is punk. It's a versatile word. It's such a perfect word and I'm actually, I'm offended and upset that we didn't have this in the English language prior to this. Yes. It's worked so well. Yeah, I punked the car. Punked the car. Punked the pole. Oh, punk and hell. It's so good. It's went for a job interview. Yeah, it didn't get the job. Not punked it. Punked it. Punked that job interview. But they can get punked. I didn't want to work there anyway. That place was a piece of punk. Overcooked your cheese cake. Punked it. Punked your cheese cake. It's satisfying to say. It's so satisfying to say. It's an onomatopoeia as well. Yeah. Yeah. Punked. So thanks to my three-year-old for that. Thank you. And then, you know what, yesterday we got in the car to go to drive again to preschool and he says, "Mom, please don't crash into a punk today." And I said, "I won't." And he said, "Thank you." So helpful. When your child's thanking you for not crashing, you know that you have ADHD. Yes. Thanks for that, bud. Beautiful story. Yeah. You smashed it out. You didn't, you know what, you didn't punk. No. That story. I loved it. Yeah. Okay. Moving on. To our wrecks. To our wrecks. Okay. Do you have a wreck for us today? I do. My wreck this week is a recipe wreck. I've never done one of these. No. And I'm very excited. And the reason I'm excited is because this is a recipe like no other. And it's not what you're going to expect. I have no idea what to expect. But it's so good. Okay. So my parents-in-law are vegetarian. And when they are hosting, we do a beautiful grazing table of sort of cold foods and like lovely picking things and stuff for our Christmas lunch. But when we do it at my parents' house, they do the sort of more traditional English Christmas lunch, right? Which in the Perth 60 degrees Celsius summer doesn't make complete sense, but you know, we'll roll with it. Yeah. And so when we have Christmas with my parents, I always want to make sure that there's something really nice for my parents-in-law to eat in place of meat. And also I really like to have a vegetarian option as well. And I came across this nut loaf that is so, so, so good. And we had it a couple of Christmas's ago. And I'm going to make it again this Christmas because it's time for Christmas with my family again. And honestly, it was just amazing. I don't have any more supellatives to use. It was just beautiful. Yep. And it's got nuts in it. It's got cottage cheese in it. So it's not vegan, unfortunately. It's vegetarian. So it's still got protein in it. So it replaces the meat in terms of giving you something that's protein rich because often vegetarian foods can be just another carb. But the kicker in this recipe is that it's got grue cheese in it. So how do you say it? I don't know. It's very hard to say. I've never said it out loud. I've just seen it on a package. So nut cheese. Yes. That must not be named again. In case I'm butchering it, just makes this the most delicious thing in the world. So it says in the recipe too that you can use sort of whatever cheese you want to suggest a few. Make sure that you use the one starting with cheese. Grilla. Grilla. It's amazing. I would love to hear if you are a vegetarian and you decide to make this for Christmas. I will obviously link this in podcast notes. Love. And if you do make it and you don't send me a photo, that is punishable by law. Yes. We need to see your photos. We need to see the photo. It's divine. What about you, my babe? What is your wreck? Okay today. Sadly. Yes. I'm sorry to inform you. Yes. But I have an unrec. Oh my god. I love an unrec. Guys. They're so dramatic. They are. Yes. Go. I punk this wreck. I thought I was going to be a wreck. You punked me. I thought that. Yes. Go. Okay. Because we're recording this, I actually don't have it here in front of me anymore. It was very organized at first time. I think it's it's by Maybelline. I think it's called lip. It's going to say like lip thrush, but that's not right. Can't be called that. No, it felt like thrush. It did. It did feel like thrush. It did not feel good on the lips. It was okay. Let's quickly Google. It's called lip. Maybelline lifter plump gloss. Yes. It's the one I found. It's the one with the chili on it. Yes. So it did have a little tiny chili on it. And I just kind of thought that was cute marketing or maybe it was like, you know, you still believe that they're actually going to have like painful chili in it. Yes. So Grace's purchase lip gloss thinking that the color was nice and that the name of the color was chili. But it's really one of those ones that has actual chili in it to burn your lips into being bigger. Horrible. So I put it on seconds before I went to pick up my sun from the bus stop. Terrible decision. A lot of bus stop drama for you. I've had a lot of two and from in the car. I really wish I could say that I just put the lip gloss on and then I drove into the punk. But sadly, I can't blame it on that. Anyway. So yeah, I was incredibly dysregulated. I told Tariah to try it. Which was really mean actually. Yeah. No, actually, how it worked was that I was like, this is crazy and your impulsivity and your curiosity with AHD. I was like, I'm already trying it. Just to be clear. It was not nice. It was. No. Horrible. And I didn't do anything. It didn't make us like, feel like you have bigger lips. Not that we were aiming for that. But it makes you feel like you have bigger lips because they're burning. But you know, when your foot is sore, it feels enormous. That's what it does. That's the effect. Yeah. Yeah. So I, this is a medical PSA disclaimer. Yeah. We need to make sure that no one else it suffers the way that we suffers that day. Yes. I am legitimately worried for it. Like I've put this high. Actually, I need to just chuck it in the bin. But the sake of the podcast, I'd put it high out of reach so I could just grab it and talk about it on the pod. Yeah. I don't want my kids coming across it. It's seriously. No, it really is all hoated stuff. Yeah. So you're unwrecking that. Yes. It's a biohazard. Maybe lean. Get it off the shelves. And if you've tried it, please DM me. So I just want to point out. Yes. Before we move on, that in order to create content for this podcast, I had to have burning eyebrows. Yes. And burning lips and burning lines because your husband was. This is what we do for the pod. Self-sacrifice. It is. You're amazing. You are a true altruist. Okay. Time for our dilemmas. Yes, it is. So I think before we get into it, we need to have a disclaimer. Yes, I agree. Because we might go rogue. In fact, we will go rogue. Going rogue is kind of my favourite. But probably best to just just claim a way. Yes. Okay. So how about this? Take everything we say with a neurodivergent grain of salt. Yes, an enormous grain of salt, like a salt lamp sized grain of salt. Take that salt lamp throughout through a window. That's how much you should pay attention to what we're saying. But don't actually throw it through a window though. See, that's a really good example of why you shouldn't take out case in point. But yeah, we're not professionals and enjoy. Dilemma time. Yes. Are we ready? Of course. Okay. So this dilemma today is about a highly requested topic that Tara gets asked about all the time. I do. Being a registered dietitian. And it's about the topic of ADHD and supplements. And not only is this a highly requested topic, but also it's around in the media a lot. It's around on social media a lot. I feel like it's all I hear about in relationship to ADHD, but I think that's just because I'm a dietitian. But yeah, but I do see like ads for it a lot as well. There's a lot of products out there. There's a lot of information that we have to sort of sift through. Yes. So not only are we going to cover it on today's podcast with Tara, but we are in fact going to do a live Q&A tomorrow in our Patreon community. Yeah. So it's going to be a Zoom call that you can join. And it'll also be recorded for those who can't make it. And so you can submit your questions in our Patreon community and get them answered either live on the call or you can submit them in advance. Yeah. So yes, we will give more details at the end, but we would love you guys to join us in the Patreon. If you want to, you can just sign up for this one call and then you can cancel it. We're down for whatever mode of being part of the Patreon that you guys want. Yeah. It doesn't. There's already other episodes in there as well. So if you join you'll get that call plus all the previous stuff that we've been putting out since we launched a few weeks ago. Yes. So if you have a burning question about ADHD supplements, whether it's vitamins, minerals, herbal supplements, we would love to hear those questions. And we're going to be doing that deep dive into all of this stuff on that Zoom call. Yeah. And at the end of this dilemma, we'll give you more details so you can find out where to go and how to hop on the call and what time it is and all of that sort of stuff. Yes. Okay. So today's dilemma comes from Miranda who's writing to us all the way from Pretoria in South Africa. Hi, Miranda. Hi. And she says, hi girls, I was diagnosed with ADHD a few months ago after really struggling to manage life following the birth of my third child. I just want to say that I love the podcast. You two are absolutely incredible. Not only do you make us for seen and heard, but you also give us permission to feel proud of our ADHD brains. So thank you, thank you. Thank you. Oh, that's so beautiful. Thank you. I just made my day. Miranda goes on to say yes. Now to my dilemma, because I'm breastfeeding, I haven't been able to start ADHD medication yet. With all the overwhelm I've been feeling, I've been desperately looking into alternatives. And as you probably know, once you click on one ad for ADHD supplements, suddenly a thousand more shop everywhere. I don't know that. This question is specifically for Tara. As a dietitian, do you think these supplements are actually worth it? I'm a nurse. So I tend to be pretty skeptical about supplements being helpful. I've seen some questionable things in the industry first hand, but at the same time, I'd really like to know our ADHD supplements worth the money or they mostly scams. And she finishes by saying, sending you all the love. Don't RSD love Miranda. Oh, Miranda, what a perfect, what a perfect dilemma. I know. And I'm going to take that Don RSD personally for my story earlier about the punk. No, yes. Thank you Miranda. I needed to hear that. I appreciate it. It hasn't been said enough. You need to sign your, you need to sign your dilemmas off with Don RSD because we need to hear it back. We do. Okay. Okay. So this is a big topic. It is. I want to start by acknowledging that I can see why people would be looking for alternatives within the ADHD space, especially women because women's health is largely under researched anyway. And ADHD isn't an exception. We don't have the research around women in ADHD. We don't have enough of it. We're starting to get a little bit more trickling in now, but we don't have that there. And it can be frustrating and to have this, you know, only one option or no options if medication doesn't agree with you is just so frustrating. It's so difficult. And I really empathise there. I want to say up the top, it's also a really tricky thing to navigate nutrition in general, but especially in nutrition in relation to ADHD. There's so much information out there. With the internet, it can be really hard to know what is reputable and what's not. Nutrition is an area that people feel that they can be experts on when they have lived experience, which is really tricky because a lot of people who are genetically attractive will get a lot of feedback from people saying, how can I look like you? And the answer there is usually predominantly have my genes. Yes. But we're still not there yet as a society in terms of understanding how much of a role genes play in our health and also in our body size and those sorts of things. So, so you're saying that those influences might be then led to give advice? Yes, sorry. They're being asked to give advice. Yes. And because they eat. And everyone eats or they work out whether they might be doing, they're giving that advice. Yes. Around this topping and it sort of gets a bit gray area. It does. Yes. And really, the only qualification a lot of people have is that they were born to fit society's ideal of what an ideal body looks like. But then when it's reinforced over time, it's tricky to not want to then, you know, if people are asking for this information, it's hard to not want to give it away. So, it's really complicated, especially with social media. And social media, it's happened too quickly. And we're now having to deal with it all in hindsight. And a lot of damages sort of already been done. There's been a lot of eating disorders that were launched off the back of social media posts. And then we had social media influences like Bell Gibson, who have very damaging advice through their platforms and things like that. So we've, we've seen it all. We also have fantastic genuine health professionals out there now who have degrees and are giving really helpful information. So there's more of a balance these days. And I do feel that people are looking more for that certification that someone is a dietician, or they are a doctor and they do have a background in the industry to know what they're talking about. So it's tricky, basically, is what I'm trying to say there. And skepticism, Miranda, is completely valid. A lot of the supplements marketed for ADHD aren't rigorously tested. And it's not regulated. It's not rigorously regulated in most countries. And a lot of these supplements haven't been proven to be effective. So in a real nutshell, what we're going to talk about is which ones are suggested for ADHD. We're going to look if there's actual clinical research backing any of those claims and whether that research we want to, and we're going to look at how we can avoid products making unrealistic promises. And a big question I get asked is supplements or medication. And I think one of the big takeaways I want from today is for people to not be asking that question because they're not equivalent. Don't do the same thing. They don't replace each other. They're not equivalent. It's like saying do you want to go to bed or do you want to go to the toilet? They're two very different things. Yes, I think that's a really good point to make. Because I think a lot of the time people feel that they need to be equivalent to be helpful. Yes. Okay. Another disclaimer before we start. Before you try any supplements, make sure that you consult with your doctor or your dietician, like me, but not me. It has to be your own personal dietician. This is not medical advice. Yes. So that they can guide you because in the supplement industry, it's again, it's not regulated enough and people aren't aware that with things like breastfeeding, pregnancy, you have to be really careful because we can store too much of certain vitamins and minerals in our body and that can impact us and can impact infants. And it's really important that we double check because vitamins and minerals can also interact with medications. It's not just this additional thing that we can throw into our diet without thinking about it. And just before you go on that, Tara, I wanted to make a quick point and ask you a question around this idea that I think a lot of people have a bit of a myth that supplements are natural and that medications sort of prescribe to medications are not natural. Yeah. And I haven't really done a lot of research into this, but I did stumble across an article a little while ago that was talking about how people can often accidentally overdose on supplements because they think, oh, I don't have to have a prescription from the GP. I can just go into the chemist and get it off the shelf. Surely more is better. Surely more vitamin C, for example. You must make me even healthier over winter. So I'm going to take lots of tablets, not just the one more is better. And then you can actually make yourself really sick. Yes. So is it about what's natural versus not natural? Like what's the answer from a dietitian on that? I would say that the natural versus unnatural conversation is within the realms for me of trying to simplify everything down too much and that we focus in on these labels and we don't need to do that. We want to think about what works for me and I want to be open to what works for me because you could say that medications may be more likely to have side effects as a whole compared to taking a supplement in its recommended dosage, right? Meeting the RDI or the recommended daily intake. But then if we look into recent research that has come out of the Netherlands, long term studies have shown that ADHD is who take by dance, which is a slow release form of dexamphetamine. The research indicated that these participants had more positive health outcomes when compared to the ADHD controls. But also when compared to neurotypical counterparts. So there's a few theories around that and we obviously can't know exactly. But one of the reasons that is being theorized is that when an ADHD has the ability to stick to a task or to adhere to something that they want to do in terms of lifestyle behaviors, they then also have this full-on energy that ADHD has often have. So it's a recipe for success. You combine that energy with the addition of medication. It's an amazing cocktail. Yes. For some. Yeah. And so the conversation around whether it's one's natural or one's not. And I don't want to sound like I'm anti-supplement and pro-medication because that's not what this is. The reason we made this podcast was never to tell people what to do with ADHD because we don't believe in that. And it's not how ADHD brains work anyway. It's about you guys deciding what's best for your body. And I believe with ADHD and even more so than neurotypical people, we need to have that agency. We need to know what's going on. We need to understand our brains and do that experimenting in a non-library kind of way. But in a sense of we need to build that interception to really look inwards and think about how we're feeling because we are people who often will ignore signals and symptoms and traits and those sorts of things and to actually look inwards and find what's best for us. And staying in that gray area and not sort of going, okay, I'm just going to go all in nothing because that's what our brains are prone to do. But just sort of thinking, okay, what is best for me? And I'm going to stay in this gray area and try the different options. But on the flip side of the medication thing, supplements are often seen as a natural alternative. And yet I see a lot that the effect of supplements is misconstrued by the average person. Supplements can have a profound effect, absolutely. But the research usually indicates that that profound effect is achieved through correcting a deficiency in a vitamin or mineral. So if someone is extremely low in iron, if they have iron deficiency anemia, their levels are below what we would call healthy within our ranges. So for example, if they have a serum ferritin level of below 30 micrograms per liter as an adult woman, they are going to feel pretty crappy because they can't deliver the nutrients that they need to around their body. Hemoglobin helps to transfer nutrients around the body. So we're going to feel really, really tired. And then if that gets corrected, we're going to feel amazing because we're not in that deficit anymore. But someone who's iron was within the range to begin with takes that same supplement. They are not going to feel the same amount of amazing as that other person. They're not going to feel better than that other person. When we correct our vitamin and mineral levels, we can feel great. And it can lead to really positive health, health outcomes, like things like birth defects with folic acid and those sorts of things. But it doesn't mean that more is better. And if you had an adequate amount of iron and you took an iron supplement, is it dangerous to have too much iron? That's where people can run into trouble. Yes. So certain vitamins and minerals are stored in the body. And if we take too many, then we're going to get too much. And then we can be at risk of toxicity of that particular vitamin and mineral. And we have, but we have upper limits set for those things. And this is why it's important to speak to a dietitian or a doctor before you do these things because they can check and they can have a look in your diet and they can say, okay, actually, your child's eating a lot of foods that contain vitamin A already. They don't need this supplement. And if they have this supplement, it could push them over that upper limit and impact their liver and things like that. Yeah. And they can do blood tests as well. Yes. And in fact, the only time I've taken supplements has been when I've been to the GP, had blood work done, the results have come back, you're low in iron or you're low in vitamin D. And then that gets prescribed. Yes. And then usually I forget to take it. Yes. And really the strong evidence suggests that the only time we really need to be taking vitamin and mineral supplements is when we're in a deficit. When we have an anemia or we're low in those vitamins and minerals or in particular life stages, for example, if we're planning to conceive. Or if we're pregnant because our body would need extra of those nutrients. So another thing that I wanted to go into here is that just because a vitamin pill contains a certain level of a nutrient, that doesn't mean that that's what's going to be absorbed across the gut wall and go into our bloodstream. And we have to remember that usually the vitamins and minerals in foods are going to be encompassed within are matrix of other things that helps with that absorption or that our body is used to absorbing. So often clients will come to me and say, do I really need to eat this because I can just take a supplement to cover me. And what we want to remember is just because this might say it has 10 milligrams of X and this pill might say it has 10 milligrams of X. That is not necessarily what's going to end up in a bloodstream and be usable by the body. We actually have to get that across the gut wall. And often with supplements, they will bind to each other or the absorption across the gut wall won't be that great. And that's why it's often spoken about that we have, that we're it's basically going through us or that we have really expensive P because although that will go across the gut wall, the body doesn't need to use that, doesn't need that excess of say B vitamins. And therefore we peer it out because we don't want to have an excess. The body wants to stay in balance. It doesn't want to have more. Okay. So let's get to specifically the ADHD supplements that we hear about a lot. Yes. One that I hear about all the time is omega three. Yes. So can you tell us about that and any of the other sort of big names in the ADHD supplement world? Okay. So I agree with you. I hear about omega three's a lot and they'll usually be included in an ADHD supplement. And ADHD supplements are often a combination of things usually won't be just a single supplement. And on that note, we want to be careful about combination supplements because often the company is relying on the list being long rather than the amount of the active ingredients being high. Okay. Because it's exciting to see that it's got a billion things of an ADHD brain. It's like, well, this is going to cover me. I don't have to do any executive functioning. I don't have to line these all up and take them all out. I just have to take this one spoonful or this one tablet. And I'm covered for all of these things. But you've got to remember the more things that listed often the lower the therapeutic dose is omega three's. One of the reasons I think that they are mentioned a lot within the ADHD supplement space is because they are a bit hooky because we do associate omega three with neurology like with brain because that from the start of the marketing of omega threes has been the sort of line is that they're really important for brain function brain health. And omega threes are really important to the body. They're an essential fatty acid, meaning that we can't make them in our body. It's essential for us to eat it. Omega threes and omega sixes. They're essential. So they are critical for brain health. They are found in things like fish oils, flaxseeds, walnuts, vegetarian and non vegetarian sources of omega three. Oh, interesting. I thought it was only found in fish. No, I've learned something. There's quite a few different sources of omega three fatty acids. So the critical for brain function and ADHD brains have shown not always, but they have shown to have altered fatty acid metabolism. So going back to what I was speaking about before, whether we actually find that in our blood, you know, whether we have the same amounts, whether we use it in the same way. So often in ADHD is omega three levels will be lower. But that doesn't necessarily mean that correcting them is going to correct ADHD symptoms. And this is the thing about science. We can't conflate one thing with another because although it might help, it's not necessarily the reason why. And it could be, we've got to always think about that gray air and go back to it. Hold on, could that be that ADHDers maybe have more textual issues and therefore struggle with eating oily fish or taste things more intensely and therefore struggle with that very, very intense flavor of oily fish or could it be the fact that ADHDers find it harder to prepare fresh foods and therefore fish isn't one of those things. We want to be considering those things all the time. What could be the other confounding factors here? The research. So there was a big meta-analysis done on omega-3s and a meta-analysis is a very quality form of study where we look at other studies and that meta-analysis found a small but significant improvement in ADHD symptoms with omega-3 supplementation. Particularly when we're focused on a co-sypentenoric acid or EPA over DHA. So we want to have higher levels of EPA. So when you are looking to buy an omega-3 supplement, speak to your pharmacist about which one is the best quality EPA program because they are all created differently and we can have a thousand milligram tablet that has olive oil and then has some fish oil in it and so you're going, okay, buying a fish oil tablet that's a thousand milligrams but does it contain that active ingredient, that therapeutic dose of a co-sypentenoric acid that has actually shown in the research to help in a small way with ADHD symptoms. So that's going to vary depending on the brand? Yes and that's why pharmacists are our guide here. They know about these things. They are always all about referring on to the best person and pharmacists know their products and they know how to look for you and find which one is going to be the cheapest amount of the therapeutic dose per gram. You might actually see an effect from. Yes. So do we need to speak then to a doctor or a dietitian before starting something even as simple as an omega-3? Yes and I hate to be that person that sounds like a total stickler and it can feel like a bit eye-roly where yeah I you know I have to check my doctor before starting a new brand of chapstick but the reality is supplements can have a really profound effect and they can be really dangerous when someone has a certain disorder. So for example if you have a bleeding disorder omega-3s can thin the blood and they can reduce clotting. So someone who's already prone to bleeding can bleed out more. If you have low blood pressure omega-3 can lower that even more. Diabetes if you're having high pyrosis omega-3 supplements it can impact blood sugar regulation. So we really need to check before we start anything like this because we do want to make sure in fact I always recommend to my clients before starting anything to get their blood tested because something can have come up in the last six months that you didn't know about and you want to make sure that you're not putting yourself at risk. Yeah. So what I'm taking from all this so far. Yes. Just a little summary is that we should be looking at the active list of ingredients on these supplement labels. We should be questioning the therapeutic dose and we should also be looking for substantial research to support this kind of supplement for ADHD. Yes. And whether that supplement company has listed that and whether that's from a credible source, whether it's a meta-analysis as you said or a longitudinal study with a large sample size. Yes. Yes. And is there anything else that people can be looking out for? One of the biggest things that I look out for within all scientific research but particularly in the ADHD supplement space is anecdotal evidence versus empirical evidence. So what I'm saying there is customer reviews versus scientific evidence. If a product works, if a product helps, then the science should speak for itself. We don't need to know that it worked for someone's aunt's sister. The reason that science exists is so that we can have something that we can trust that's measurable, that we can go back to. Science is peer reviewed and a lot of people will get down on, you know, "Oh, science, it's not always right and it can be corrupt." But what I don't think people realize is that scientists are taught to read the quality of that research. And so if a study is funded by, say, the Fisher Royal Company, they will have to list that within the science and it will be reviewed by other people who are independent. So there are ways that we can account for that. Whereas with anecdotal evidence, we can't know that that person really wrote that. We can't know that the company who sells the product isn't writing these reviews themselves. And we also don't know like what health conditions a sister's aunt has, any more of her profile. It's not done within a controlled environment. Exactly. While she's sick at the time with the flu, started taking the supplements, then got over the flu and suddenly felt better. We can't account for that. Those confirmed factors, yeah. Exactly. So going onto their website, if the majority of their marketing is relying on customer reviews and customer quote unquote evidence, that's not evidence. The evidence should speak for itself. We should have the empirical evidence or the science to back up the claims. So if you go on and you see a whole list of supplements, the dosages aren't listed or there's smoking mirrors so that you don't really can't really see how much of each is listed or if it's listed, not on the actual website itself, but inside the photo of the product and you kind of have to zoom in to work it all out. And it's very complicated. I've made it complicated and not really transparent. And then what's hitting you in the face constantly is Sarah from Tasmania just bought this and pop up and then reviews and those sorts of things. We don't. I've said twice. I'm going to say the third time, if the supplement works, then the science should speak for itself. And we shouldn't need to rely on anecdotal evidence to be the big to be the big marketing factor for that product. And I just want to add here, yeah, as a consumer. Yes. That I do think we love to consume. I'm an avid and actually doesn't like to take supplements, but she does like to consume other things. I know we've all come here to hear from our dietician, but as a registered consumer and someone who's very practiced in this area. Yes. I want to just think. Yes. Yeah. I find reviews really helpful. And I like to buy a product reading reviews. But I think what I would want to see based on what you've said then is I'm looking for reviews, but also completely backed by evidence. I think I find it difficult to go to a website selling supplements. Yeah. Where it's all maybe backed by evidence, but it feels very personality less. There's no reviews. And it's like, has anyone ever bought this product off this company? Yeah. I hear that. Yes. So I'm just sort of trying to get in the mind of a consumer, because I am one and think I think the ideal for me would be to find a company that has all of the evidence out that completely backed by proper studies from reputable journals. Yes. Everything very transparent. And also has, yeah, people love this product. Yes. And that I think would do it for me as a consumer, because I'm so conditioned to know, okay, this might be backed by science, but does my friend use it to they like it or does my dietician recommend it? Yes. So we're always looking for a recommendation from someone. Yes. And it's tricky, because of course, as ADHDers, we are often the lab rats for things, because we don't have the evidence and we don't have, we're often at the forefront of these things. And we have to kind of try them and see where to go, but with our bodies, we want to think about, you know, that damage can be done here. Buying a diary that doesn't work, you know, that's not so much for risk to our livelihood. But when we're looking at our bodies, supplements can have this negative impact. And also they can be really expensive. A diary, you know, what you're getting, you know, pay $30 for the diary, we have something to compare that to. Whereas with supplements, if someone's promising you the world and saying, this is a natural alternative to medication or it's going to cure your ADHD symptoms, it's really tricky to not want to buy into that. And so I implore ADHD supplement companies to ask their users to list how long they've been on the supplement, to list the pros and the cons, to list any suggestions that they have for the product, to rate the taste out of 10, because that's really important for ADHDers, you know, if you buy something and you don't like it or it's too chalky or whatever, it's going to be another expensive thing in your pantry. And having that transparency, I think we'll go a long way to creating really positive relationships with consumers from those, from those companies. Yeah. And in our Q&A, that we're doing tomorrow. Yes. We will be doing a side by side comparison of a couple of websites. Yes. Tara's going to run through websites that do this really well or companies that have really transparent marketing and then we'll also give some examples of sites that probably we should be thinking critically before purchasing from. Yes. And just be aware that e-commerce companies don't always allow every review that comes through to be on their website. And so reviewing from the company's own website is not necessarily the most ethical way for information to be presented. And you will notice that on a lot of e-commerce websites, if you go to the three star reviews, it will only be things that are quite mild that will be kept there and there won't be any two star or any one star. And that is a real red flag for me. Yeah. You know, when there's only a few three star reviews or two star reviews and those reviews will say things like, it arrived two days later than I thought it was going to arrive. Yes. And the reality is, when you're selling to a massive population, especially a population with sensory issues and a lot of people who taste things in a really extreme way compared to the average person and who are big fans of certain textures, especially within this space and the supplement space, you are very likely to have a lot more of a skew in your reviews. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. Love that. So the final thing I want to say, actually not the final thing I want to say, but the final thing I'm going to say, because Grace is giving me, that's why in this up eyes, is expensive price tags on products and supplements without justification for why this product is expensive. So most of us are aware of marketing techniques like greenwashing. And greenwashing is when companies make things seem eco-friendly or sustainable organic. Yes. When they're not. As a way of promoting them, making you want to buy them. Yes. And it might come from an honest place where companies who are environmentally friendly or sustainable will use brown packaging with, you know, no dyes and those sorts of things. But then another company might pick up on that and then put their non-sustainable product in that brown packaging because they know that that's going to increase the buy of that product. Yeah. So we understand those things. But when it comes to supplements, there seems to me to be a big misconception about the quality of the ingredients and people are often talking about quality ingredients, quality ingredients. When we're looking at the active ingredient of something, it's either a therapeutic dose or it's not. Yeah. So if we have a bottle over here, that's a bit boring, but it has the the active ingredient listed as 10 micrograms. Oh, baby, boring bottle. Don't do that to me. I know. And it is an emotional thing. You know, you do want to be that girl that like gets up and scoops out of the pink thing, you know, depending on it. I want all my package recycles. Yes. But we have this boring bottle over here that has maybe 10 micrograms of the active ingredient. And we have this, you know, brightly colored table. Maybe it's an organic looking tub of pills over here. It's a sexy bottle. I want it because it's pretty. And that has 10 micrograms. They are going to have the equivalent effect in your body. This one might have other things added to it that make it sound really good. But if they don't have an effect, then that ingredient is not going to be listed as an active ingredient. Yeah. It's not a big enough dose. Yeah. No, or it's just not active. It's not relevant. Yes. So I want you guys to know that although you can buy the pretty one for a sometimes I've seen, you know, 400, 500% markup. Yeah. The one over here in the boring bottle that I know makes Grace's heart sad. We'll still do the same thing if that product can do that thing. Right. Yes. If the evidence is there. Right. To support that ingredient doing that in the first place. So right now we're comparing something that we're assuming works say like omega three. And we're looking at it in a cheaper boring bottle. Yes. With a boring logo that doesn't make my heart sink. Yeah. It is transparent. And we're comparing that, which is a lot cheaper. This one over here that is in your favorite pink and red combination in a beautiful sand serif font. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yes. But it costs a lot more. Yes. A lot often a lot more. Yeah. For the same effect, which a lot of the time is nothing. Yeah. And on that note, my thought is I don't want you guys to feel like you can't have the pretty thing in your kitchen. But by the boring looking one, pop that in the cupboard. And spend money on stuff like beautiful mugs and glassware. Oh, you didn't get a pretty container and then put. Absolutely. As long as it's a pie and the kids can't get to it. Yes. You're all good to go. Yeah. Exactly. And that's all that the people selling these 400 percent markups are done. Sometimes taking something and then putting in a pretty container and then market it to you. Absolutely. There's a lot of own labeling. Yeah. Where you're taking a product that already exists. You don't have to go to a factory. You don't have to develop anything. You just pop your label on. There are drop shipping companies, the most popular ones where you can get two shirts designed with your logos on and things like that. Mugs or bags. Yeah. They also sell supplements. So you can go and there's a protein powder and it's just a generic protein powder and you can pop your label on it. And it's as easy as that. Company A can charge $200 because the person marketing it to you is an influencer and influencer. And person B is charging 10% of what person A is charging. Yeah. And when you educate yourself with more of the active ingredients and all those sort of things, you can start to see, well, these products are identical. And so you're starting to then make decisions more around packaging and marketing unless about actually like whos each of these products because you've already sorted that part out. Yes. And it needs a way to do that and we'll get into this more in the Patreon checking the ingredients list. Yeah. Checking the ingredients per 100 grams because we can compare that easily to another product and see how they differ. Yeah. Okay. All right. Hi. That was a lot. I am. My brain is spinning a bit but I feel like I actually got it. Do you know what you need? So I'm going to go down and find the brightest coloured packaging. You will not. Do you talk to your doctor first? Did you listen to anything that I just said? I am terrible supplements. I have to admit I get prescribed them by my doctor. I'm the opposite of what maybe a lot of people are like when they're like, oh supplements. Let me buy them and just randomly experiment. I'm just that person who gets told to take stuff and forget straight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I do feel like now I understand a lot more about it. Yeah. I know now what to look out for. And I think we covered a mega three specifically. Yeah. As an example, but there are a lot of other supplements with ADHD that we could talk about. Absolutely. We've still haven't even touched on herbal supplements, which herbal supplements seem to evoke this feeling in us as human beings that we can concurrently feel like that's complete bogus and it's not going to work. And also maybe it's the magical witchy cure to all my problems. As we hear that, we can feel both feelings at once. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So before we wrap up, if you have been newly diagnosed with ADHD or you're someone with ADHD who has never wanted to take medication, but feels really stuck because they don't know where to go. I don't want you to feel that there's no alternative to medication because there absolutely is. The research indicates though that the best alternative to medication if you're not wanting to go down that medication route is behavioral therapy. So speaking with a psychologist and finding ways to manage our emotional and mental well-being, supplements also can have an impact. It's just how much of an impact can they have. They're usually not going to be the silver bullet, but then on the other side, medication isn't the silver bullet for a lot of people including Grace and I. So we're definitely not trying to create this dichotomy here where we're, you know, are we a pro or anti-medication or supplements for ADHD? But we're pro-education. Absolutely pro-education. And in fact, like I said at the top, I employ you guys to go into it with a really open mind and speak to your specialists and your doctors. And tell them if you don't want to start a medication and tell them the reasons and discuss it with them because they are going to have so much more information than someone who is giving you a review on a website that we don't even know if that's authentic. Also, tell them at the top of the session, I feel like I'm going to be judged for not having medication. Tell them your emotions, tell them your feelings around this. It's important that you speak to the right people about these things, the people that can give you the information or point you in the right direction. Love that. Absolutely. So speaking of education, yes, we are doing the Q&A in our Patreon on a live Zoom call tomorrow and recording that. And we've already had a lot of questions. Just a couple of the things we'll be discussing, the role of protein, interacting with our men's and whether that improves the efficacy, supplements for kids, how vitamin C interacts with medications, L-thianine, and Gabba, and so many more. We're going to get to it. Throw it all at me. We're going to be busy on that call. So if you want to join in on that Patreon call, you can go to adhdvestis.com/m ORE more. Yes. And join the group and jump on the call and answer you and Tara will be answering your questions. I will. And we would love to see you there. We would love to see you guys there. If you love the podcast and you want to support us, then our Patreon is the best way that you can do that. Yes. Because that helps us to keep going. It actually makes the first day episode possible as well. It does. So we are so grateful. There's an unbelievable amount of you in there already, so many gorgeous adhd brains forming such a beautiful community. And we love that. So adhdvestis.com/m ORE for that? Yes. I think it's time for a bit of a gear shift. Oh, what could let all of that information process? What is she suggesting? I think it's time for Anna Reggie Segi. Me too. Our Reggie Segi is out of regular segment. If you are just listening to the pod for the first time, we do a different regular segment each time. And that's to just keep the dopamine flowing. It is just mixed things up. Novelty. Our brains love new stuff. Yeah, sometimes we repeat them, but you never know when, which is also exciting. And they're different every time, especially when Tara decides to play two lies in a truth instead of two truths in a lie, which happened last week. Yes. So this week, we have a brand new Reggie Segi for you. We've never done it before. No. We're very excited. Well, we don't know how it's going to go. We don't know how it's going to go, but it's got a great name. Yes. It's called Ronda the receptionist. Ronda the receptionist. Yes. Is a game based around the idea that people with adhd find calling and changing appointments really, really difficult because of executive functioning, because of not having brain calendars that are really clear for us. Yeah. Because we just make decisions on the spot. Decisions on the spot. Rejection sensitive dysphoria. Yeah. If, you know, we do the wrong thing or say the wrong thing or we feel that we're going to impulsively say something really odd or weird and be perceived in a weird way. Yeah. I don't struggle with this as much as Grace. No. So it's going to be much fun here if we put little grace on the spot. Thank you. I was like, is this going to be a helpful segment where I learn how to speak? No. It's just going to be me and the hot seat struggling dysregulated, sweating bullets. You're going to help people feel seen. Wow. Tara pretends to be. I'm going to be robust Ronda the receptionist. She is a woman that's had a life experience. She has. This is not her first neurodivergent on the line. So basically, this segment is just helping us all feel seen. Yep. And not really very helpful at all for anyone. At least of all me who has to go through it. But enjoy a laugh at my expense. We will. Why don't you? Tara is literally. I'm smiling with leaves. She looks like that Cheshire cat. What is it the cat that ate the cream whenever that expression is? That's you. Honestly, we need to add a book of all of the sayings that you get wrong. The cat that ate the cream. Yeah, it is. That's the cat that got the cream. Oh, is it? Yes. All right. This is details and Mrs. Muffet. Okay. All right. Let's go. Okay. I'm glad to dial. Yes. Before I dial though. Yes. The context. What an ADHDR is likely feeling right now. Yes. Or an ADHDR as I am. I have been delaying this task for nine days at this point. Of course. I had a horrible dream last night to do with the doctor's appointment and medical fear around. I should have got that check and I didn't. Naturally. So now I'm only making this call out of fear. Yes. And adrenaline. Yes. And I don't want to do it. But I'm telling myself it's all going to be okay. And I'm forcing myself to dial right now. The perfect recipe for making a phone call. Uncool. Uncom. Uncollected. Exactly. Not it. Okay. That's me. So I'm about to dial. Here we go. Yes. Pam Lakes Medical Center. This is Rhonda. Hi, Rhonda. My name is Grace Kuma. How's Bella for you? It's K-O-E. Sorry. Can I just get your date of birth? Oh. Okay. It's the 10th. Sorry. Who are you looking for? Oh, I'm sorry. I actually wanted to breathe. Sorry, love. I just I don't I have a lot of patience waiting. So I just need to know who you're what you're calling about. Of course. No, no. I have an appointment. Do you need to book an appointment? Um, mull check. Sorry. Okay. In character again. If you if you collect yourself love, I just I think I don't have a lot of time. I'm not sure. And I can't remember if I miss an appointment. Yeah, I can. Okay. So surname, please. I can't. Okay. Oh, it's K-O-E. Before that, I need your date of birth. You still haven't given it to me. Oh, 10th of September 1988. Okay. Yes. So I think I, I think I booked, but it wasn't in my mind. Sorry. I've got 12 people. Sorry. Excuse me. Just before you go any further, I've actually got 12 people born on the 10th of September. So could you tell me the day that you're born? The day. Yes. You mean of the week? Yes. Like Monday Tuesday was it. Yes. Um, I don't know. There's only seven love. Could you just give me the day. Okay. Hang on a second. Hang on. So I know my mom's told me one of my birth story before. Oh, sorry. I don't need 24 hours. I think it was a natural bird. Sorry, I'm just going to have to put one hold up on another cold. So just brace yourself for some green sleeves. Thanks, Grace. All right. Are you there, Gary? No, no, it's Grace. Oh, what? Sorry, Grace, I've put you, I've put through the wrong extension. Sorry, please hold again for an indefinite amount of time. Please know. I can I just. Are you there, Grace? Rhonda, yes. Um, I thought you had hung up on me. It's been 20 minutes. Oh, okay. No, sorry. It's just that all of our other telephonies are actually unavailable. I had now have someone that you can speak to. So if you will just hold one more time, they're going to transfer you to them and they'll transfer you to the next extension. Speak to the person that you need to speak to. Thank you so much, Grace. Please hold the line. Oh, Pam likes medical center. This is Rhonda speaking. Um, hi, Rhonda. I feel I mean, it's Grace. We just have you come back to the main switchboard. Obviously, no one was available at that extension. Okay. I didn't mean to. Just give me one second. Yes, she's fine. I'll deal with it. Okay. Yeah. Uh, okay. So Grace, I'm going to need you to stay focused. I'm not going to repeat myself. So I just need to grab your date of birth. Okay. Okay. I've discovered while I was in hope for 20 minutes, I realized it was a Thursday Thursday. What Grace? You asked me before what day I was born and we don't need what day. I went back and looked at my mum's journals. I don't need to know from when she was, you know, you know, I'm just going to need to fill out some paperwork before we can commence. So if you wouldn't mind going on our website and filling that out online, no, it should only be a 12 to 18 minute form. I would really. I'm begging you, Rhonda. I think it's already a person. I'm just wondering why you're asking again. Okay. Can I just tell you, I had a dream last night that I didn't get this routine checkup and I died. So I really, really need to read book right now because I've got ADHD. That means it comes. I'm like, it's medical center. You're speaking with Rhonda. Sorry. Oh, sorry. Is that you Grace? Oh, sorry. I wasn't listening. Can you say that again? Sorry, Rhonda. I don't know if you remember me telling you that I have anxiety and ADHD. And sorry, everyone loved what? A lot of it. Okay. Yes. Okay. And so I really need to read book disappointment now. Executive functioning is difficult for me. Yes. I don't know what that means, but continue. Multi-step process is like going on. Have you figured out the form that you need to fill out before I can speak to you about this? It's just on the website last. If you go to www.pumlux.com/ronda. Ronda. Yes. I'm just wondering since you're such an expert receptionist and you deal with people all the time. Grace, you're needing to re-schedule appointments. That's correct. Yes, that is. Okay. So I'm going to need you to remember the specific date and time. It's the only time that the doctor has available within the next 12 to 15 weeks. And that is Tuesday at 1.42pm. Does that work for you? Sorry. I think you said Tuesday at 1.42pm. The rebate is 49.95 from Medicare. What date is that though? You said Tuesday at 1.42. What date? You want to know what day of the week it is? Yes. It's a Tuesday. No, I mean the date like the date. Like is it the 8th of December or the 14th of August? Like what's the date? Okay. I'm going to need you to listen this time, Grace. I was. It's the 14th of November. Ronda, I'm about to have a panic attack. So 2026. So would you mind repeating the date, the time? Yes. The year. Yep. And did you say you're going to you're about to get your rebate back? No, you won't get your rebate back until you've paid for the appointment in full. Ronda. Then we put that through Medicare. You will need to before you do that fill out a little form online. So if you can go fill that out preemptively, that would be great. It's on. I know you're a very busy woman. Yes. I am. And I've been forgetting everything I've been saying and talking at me and very distracted this entire time. I actually wonder if you have ADHD as well. Okay, love. Yes. So that date does work for you. Sorry. That date works for you. So it was a season. It says the only date that we have at 1.42pm. In the next 12 to 15 weeks. Yes. You're doing you're just talking while I'm trying to say things. So it's, what was it? 16th of November at 1.42pm. Yes. I can't do anything in the system until you figure out if that date works for you. Okay. Yes. Would you mind holding? Sorry. Just one second. If you could just please hold for a moment. I've got another call coming through. No. Just please. No. Palm Lake's Medical Center. This is clear. No. Okay. We are back and Grace is rocking in the fetal position. Grace. She has been green-sleeved within an inch of her life. We hope that that was some good exposure therapy because it's very unlikely that a receptionist will be worse than Ronda just was to grace on the phone. So you've seen the worst. You felt the worst. I am speechless at your ability to ronder it up. I have no, that that look in your eyes. When you put me on a hold for the 15th time. She's been rendered speechless. The only thing more scary than calling Ronda is having to call Ronda when she's four feet away from you. Because that's the thing. There are disembodied voice. When you say my little Brittany headset. I don't recommend. But you know that's how much I love you guys that I'm willing to put myself on the line to make it straight and saggy. No, you are a true altruist and we all appreciate you. You're welcome. It's all in the name of advocacy. I want to know it as well. Did you notice? I tried to advocate for myself. Yes, I did. I was very impressed. With my legs shaking. Yes. It was a large, last ditched effort before I went into. You can't talk. It was a large ditch. No, I did. I tried to advocate. You did. And then when that didn't work, I just went full on into the dorsal response of like just hiding me away in a hole at this point. Just in a little position. No, but that was a great array of saggy and we all appreciate you Grace. You're welcome. On that note, we are done with the point today. If you enjoyed the podcast, please rate, review and subscribe. Yes. We will be back on Monday. If you're a patron, subscriber. Otherwise, we will be back on Thursday and your gorgeous little neurodivergent is the way we will. And until then, do not RST. But you know what? What? If you have just been speaking to a ronda. Yes. Go away. Make yourself a cup of tea. Wrap yourself in a blanket. Maybe it wispy in that. Yeah. A hot tea. Yes. And allow yourself to sob. To great sleeves. I think in that case, RST is okay. You've done nothing wrong, but the RST is a signal that you just need to rest. Yes. It's our instinct, but the R stands for rest. Yes. That's shouldn't recover. Yes. And ronda. And ronda. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. This podcast was recorded on Madundee, Budgerland. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. It's integral that we acknowledge the original owners of the land, seas and waterways in Australia and that we remember the devastation that happened on this land to validate the history of Australia's indigenous people and to ensure devastation like this never happens again.