Hello, and welcome to Over the Board, the Backgammon podcast. I've skipped the usual opening blurb today, as I'm starting this episode with some sad news. I'm grateful to Orad Rachev for getting in touch to let me know about the death of Joseph Heller earlier this year. I didn't know Joseph, but I was a bit of a fan of his YouTube videos, and I've linked to one of those in the show notes of previous episodes. He had a real knack, I think, for explaining complex ideas simply and with enthusiasm. I'm not the best person to do justice to his contributions to the Backgammon community, so instead I will leave a link to an announcement of his passing in the show notes for this episode, from one of his fellow programmers on the Gnu Backgammon project, to which he contributed so many great ideas. So, a few weeks back, I had the pleasure of talking to Antoinette Marie Williams in New York. I had been trying to get her on the show for a while, and when I called her to set something up, she said, "How about right now?" And we more or less got straight into it. I did have a couple of little technical hiccups during recording, most of which I think has polished up okay in the final mix, and any slight audio issues that remained attract nothing, I think, from the interview. So, whether you know all about Antoinette or are about to meet her for the first time, you're in for a treat, I think. As a child, I played bidwist, mostly with my family, and it was something like games played with parents, and which was really what led me to other games like Cooen Can, Tonk, bidwist, a pinuckle. So, there were quite a few different games that I learned as a child, and I played in college, in the game room, and played for money, and so going to college at the age of 28 during the day, playing with a lot of youngsters, I made a lot of money, because they didn't have the experience. And that led to me playing chess, not for money, but as a challenging game, and then going on to playing backammon in 1973 when I learned. And outside of backammon, as your love for some of those other games continue, do you play other games as much or as often as you do backammon? I still play chess some, not a lot, but I also play online with Derot, which is an intergenerational program that puts elders and children together to converse about experiences, and to also play chess with the youngsters. And sometimes I beat them because of the experience, and sometimes they beat me because they have a lot more wisdom when it comes to playing chess. So, where did backgammon start for you then? You referenced the 1970s, and how did you first become interested in backgammon? As a chess player, a friend of mine, she learned to play backammon or found out a way to play about backammon in the 70s, which was the rate of Rave of America. We played in bars and restaurants and discos, or discos back then. I don't know how many people around know about discos. I remember discos, just about. Up, you sounded like you're old, Ed. I'm getting it. But it was the Rave of New York and the country. So, it was something that she suggested that I learned to play. And I was at the point, I know enough games. I don't want to learn another game. It doesn't interest me. And lo and behold, she talked me into it. And I started playing around at the bars and the restaurants and the discos, especially. And even because I played different games for money, I played this for money too. Didn't know anything other than 314265, which I learned that 6'5 was Lovers' League. Bruce Becker, I read his book and was like, "Don't do Lovers' League." It was like, "What?" Okay. But, so I went around playing for money and it came to learning that there were different clubs to play in. I joined a couple of clubs. I joined the Lafere club and started going to tournaments, learning to play in tournaments in the Bahamas and around the country. There were two people that played and gave tournaments, a lesson to boy. So there were tournaments in Vermont and in the city. I played in those and then I discovered the Bahamas to go to play in the Bahamas at tournaments. What a couple of tournaments in the Bahamas, intermediate, division of course, and have gone from there. Fantastic. You mentioned the Lafere club there. Could you tell me a little bit about that experience and what was it like and how that played apart in your development as a player? Back when I was going to the Lafere club and going to the Bahamas, there were players like Billy Haran, Jason Leicester, Mike Sankowitz, Eric Sidel to name a few. And they were at the top of the line. So listening to them, keeping score with their money games, they were playing for $25 a point back in the 80s, which is probably now $100 a point. But they were good to listen to and I guess I didn't listen well enough so that I could be on their level at this point. But I'm surviving. I win some, I lose some and it's a fascinating game still. I love it as much now as I did in the 70s. It's amazing and you can never learn it all. Even the top players are still learning the game. Is it about that time in the 70s and 80s that you earned the nickname Lady Fabulous? Is that a nickname that you still use or who bestowed that title upon you? I've been known by so many different names, some good, some bad. What I've been known as a lot of different names in the back of the world. It's nice to have different names, Lady Fabulous, the necklace, which is double threes, which I had a necklace appendent, which had double threes on it like the dice. Then there are some not so nice names that I've been known as. Are you happy to share some of those? No. Fair enough. I wanted to ask you a little bit about your approach to the game as well. You talked about observing players, keeping their school, learning from seeing how other players played. I've read, you described as an advocate of learning through playing rather than perhaps using bots to analyze the game. Is that true or am I making an assumption here? Do you still consider yourself someone who learns predominantly through playing than through other methods? Well, I have done that and as I get older, I'm finding that I do need to study more, read more and get lessons. In fact, I have a lesson coming up with Dirk Sheeman, which I got through the person that makes Anki Cards. I was the 1000 subscriber and as a result of that, I got a free lesson with Dirk. I saw Dirk and Grease. We were going to have the lesson in Grease, but we were both very busy and we decided that we'd do it online. That's coming up at some point. I just texted him to see when was convenient for him to play. Sure. Grease, was that the recent World Teams Championship and the Grand Prix? Yes, it was. I'm happy to say that I was on the women's team for the USA and we came forth and it shows that we are playing back at men to be contended with. It's wonderful. I try to encourage more women to play the game and it's something that unfortunately, like chess, we don't think that we're capable of doing and so we don't want to get involved, but I try to encourage as much as I can.
possible. And I'm doing a good job of that. Well, I wanted to ask you about that as well, because someone who's been involved in the game on a global level and across so many years, has the growth of the women's game been a gradual thing? Have there been kind of peaks and troughs? Is it accelerating now more than it ever has before? Or could you give us your perspective on that? I think more than ever before, women are coming out and with encouragement from the women of back amin' from the world of back amin' with Karen Davis and April message and Goldie and women around the world, actually, we're putting together groups of women online to talk about plays and positions. And it's just, it's opened up the whole world for women to be encouraged to play and to come out to play. Something else I wanted to get into some detail today and one of the reasons I first reached out to you. I'm very interested generally in the benefits of playing back amin' the social benefits, the mental health benefits, but from an education point of view, I was really keen to talk to you about your role with the US Back Amin Federation, your mission in terms of introducing back amin' to children and some of the programs that you've been involved, especially in the New York area. Maybe if I could just start in general, what, you know, I know my beliefs about the educational benefits of playing back amin'. What are your beliefs about the educational benefits? And why do you think it's so important to introduce the game to younger players? I think it's really important for their experience in their education for once they, once they are out of school. It helps them, it helps them in terms of understanding what roles are to be lived and learned what you need in order to survive in the world in order to be a part of the world past education. So I'm trying to introduce back amin' in schools in New York City, which there are other people around the world that are doing back amin' with young people. And I'm trying to follow that lead and encourage schools. And I also teach on the street for anyone that wants to play during the summer, which all kinds of people come up. Children, I've taught children at three years old, five years old, seventh-eighth graders, elders, young people, I've tried to introduce as well as elders. Oh, I have a back amin' aboard in the closet. Well, pull it out and play with your children, your grandchildren so that they understand what they need to do, they need to learn how to accept losses and wins and be courteous about that. We all are gonna win and lose at some point, but teaching them how to lose gracefully is very important. It helps in terms of jobs, in terms of life, you're not always going to win. So understand that that's going to happen in act accordingly. Don't be a bad loser. Odds and probabilities, that comes, but common sense, I think, is the most important thing. I'm not into PRs, fortunately. Fortunately, I've won quite a bit without that, but like I said, I'm trying to adapt to these new additives for getting better at the game. I've won lots of tournaments and I've got lots of trophies, but teaching kids is my life goal, passing the baton on and whatever I can do to help them with the knowledge that I know is my goal. And what were some of those other programs that you mentioned? Other programs overseas that you were inspired by or that gave a model for how you wanted to approach back in education in New York. Mochi does a program in Japan, Daniel Sardson does a program in Denmark, Patrick Gabbellie is doing something in Dubai and another friend is doing something in Germany. So there are different countries and I'm trying to get information from all of them in order to create a viable program in New York. I've spoken with a superintendent of about 48 schools in New York and he wants me to teach at three schools. I'm just waiting to put a proposal together and start working with those schools and going from there. And can I ask you about your approach to teaching then? Is it a very different experience? Teaching really young players as opposed to you referenced teaching elders how to play as well? Do you modify the way that you teach based on the age of the learner? Yes, I'm doing hypergamen, which I think is the easiest way to have the children enjoy the game as opposed to trying to give them all of the information in a standard game right away. I think it blows, it blows adults' minds so I know it's going to blow children's minds. So hypergamen is the way that I try to introduce them into the game. Fantastic. I spoke to Phil Simborg recently. He mentioned hypergamen. Again, for anyone who's not familiar, could you explain what that variant is? Hypergamen is putting three checkers on the ACE, DOES and 3 point or the 24, 23 and 22 point in your opponent's board and you're going around clockwise. Your opponent is going around counterclockwise to get all your checkers, all three of your checkers around the board and off. So it's war, it's war, but it helps you manipulate and how you get home. Sure. I think some of those variants can be so important for that in terms of just thinking about essential principles of backgammon, racing versus staying back, risk versus reward. So I can definitely see the benefits of that. Yes, I think it's the easiest way to start people out and it encourages it. I think it makes it a lot more fun by starting out this way. Sure. And the game should be fun after all. If we forget that sometimes. Absolutely. And you'll work with things like inclusive parks and open streets. Does that cross over with the backgammon education program? Is that one in the same thing or all these all very different programs? No, it's one and the same thing. It's like whoever comes out, I'm there for about four hours out on the streets in Manhattan with two different, two different community groups. And whoever comes up between those hours gets to sit down and either get a lesson or they play, we play a game. Something that I've asked lots of people doing this show because I've spoken to people who are players and authors and tournament directors and teachers, all of whom are players as well. But how do you see yourself in terms of backgammon? Do you think of yourself primarily as a player of the game, as a teacher of the game? What do you see as your role in the in the backgammon world? I think I'm all of that in a bag of chips. I know a few people and I think we'd agree with that. All of it is important to me. All of it is leaving a legacy. That's what's important to me. And what do you, what are the plans for the future then? Do you have ideas about how you would like that program to grow? I know you mentioned discussions with the superintendent and maybe looking at more schools to roll it out. Is it something that you see as being primarily driven by you or are you interested in building a team to develop this further? Where do you see it going? I think that building a team in terms of having it in every city in the country. And so I can't run from every city or even all of the schools in New York. They're quite a few and in every borough. So I would like to have teams doing the entire country. And even even expanding to the world. I think that backgammon is everywhere. And if anyone wanted to contact you schools or education leaders who are you know interested in having a program like this in their school or their area, what's the best way that people can reach you? [BLANK_AUDIO]
My email is Monte Carlo
[email protected] Oh fantastic very memorable email address which I'm reminded we've jumped sort of forward and backward a little bit But I wanted to talk about Monte Carlo also. It's something that's come up in a few previous episodes But I know someone you have been there, you know regularly for many many years What is it about that tournament and how? How has it changed in the in the years that you've been attending? well Monte Carlo started out as I want to say James Bond type Place to go sure we dressed we dressed to the nines with Black tie and formal gowns Men wore jackets and pants and shoes women dressed We looked at it was like Wow that woman was dressed amazingly Did you see what she looked like? That was that was the gossip But also there were very few women That played a Monte Carlo because it's always been a male sport women there were Maybe if there were ten of us that was a lot but I of course played in the intermediate division as a start And sometime around 87 I won the intermediate division And of course winning winning one division you got bumped up to the next division So I I had to play in the championship division after that But it was No one knew the odds and probabilities From a from a computer standpoint every every person palm of grill and Gem Pasco and and the rest of the world champion players They rolled out positions Because there were no computers Unfortunately the dress code has changed immensely The young pups that are around now which we were back in the day Are don't know anything about dress codes don't know anything about shirt and tie And so the change the changes been for me unfortunate in terms of How you look Monte Carlo is a very fancy Atmospheric and Principality so I look at it from that perspective I just had one last question to ask you then answer that and it it sounds like a simple question It's a question I use in lots of my interviews and yeah, I mean it is a simple question although sometimes it it Throws up some interesting results, but it's just this why backgammon You've been involved in the game over many decades you've played all around the world You know some of this we've already touched on on topics that we've talked about today But you know what keeps you coming back why backgammon I'm a social person. I like Communicating with a lot of people I I must know thousands of people And that number that number is because of backgammon I travel the world and I meet people in every country that we go through and What happens is you meet some of the same people when you go to tournaments all over the world We become family We don't have to speak the same language But we have a common language Which is backgammon We don't see each other for many many years. I've had people come up to me after 30 years I don't recognize them because we're going older We've grown older and we're not in the same shape that we were when we were young But they come up to me and it's that's when I remember a match or a game that we played and And it's like oh my god you remember that And it's good to see people that you haven't seen in 30 years that are still Around and not playing as regularly as you do But they're still around playing the game. It's it's wonderful It's a community. It's it's a family And there you go I really enjoyed talking with Antoinette and Incidentally when I was editing this episode last week I saw that for the 2025 Monte Carlo World Championship the Gallaudinette is back complete with dress code So yeah, I couldn't help thinking that Antoinette would probably approve Now I've really only given you an outline of her life in backgammon as I was keen to focus on education in our chat But I'm going to link to a couple of goodies in the show notes today if you want to know more about this fabulous person I'm firstly an article by Candace Mayeron that appeared in the usbgf prime time magazine Maybe two years ago and from around the same time I think Antoinette's appearance on the excellent storytelling website themoth both highly recommended That's it from me today until next time on over the board
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