132. Another Option w/ Blocks: Externalization in EFT—Guiding Clients Compassionately Into Vulnerability”

Ryan and I are honored that many times y'all ask about how to be in trainings with us. And so if you want to hear that, stay tuned. But if you want to go ahead and get into that episode, go ahead and skip right on ahead. Take it away, Nicola. All right. Here are some leading-edge training options to train with Dr. Hawkins, Mark the following dates. February 5th through 7th, core skills 1 and 2 in Bend, Oregon. February 18th through 21st, externship in Houston, Texas. March 5th through 7th, core skills 1 and 2 in Washington, Baltimore, EFD community. March 11th through 14th, externship in Atlanta, EFD community. March 26th through 28th, core skills 3 and 4 in North Texas, EFD community. May 6th through 9th, externship in Maine, EFD community. And to train with Dr. Ryan Reena, we have January 15th through 17th, core skills 3 and 4 in Huntington, West Virginia. January 29th through 31st, core skills 1 and 2 in North Texas, EFD community, Plano. In February 19th through 21st, core skills 3 and 4 in Missola, Montana. February 26th through 28th, core skills 3 and 4 in Deanna Bliss, Indiana. Have you ever tried to help someone who was scared and just afraid and to move directly towards them was just too provoking for them and just didn't know quite how to move towards them in their fear? That's what we're going to be talking about today is the use of externalization to help clients as an intervention to help clients experience themselves in moments of vulnerability. Welcome to the leading edge and emotionally focused therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reena. EFD is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapist. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson. Alright everybody, welcome back. Once again in this episode, we are still taking a break right now, Ryan's on the road. I've been doing some things from our stage 2 series and then jumping into our mini series on caregiving nightmares, definitely thankful for it and I guess you know, I thought about this Nikola, I need to stop saying you're a special guest, sorry. You're special but you're no longer a guest. I may no longer. No. Oh my goodness. Sorry. You're special but you're no longer a guest though. You are a part of this podcast so thank you for you and thank you to the people who like when I'm out on the road, they're like, when is Nikola going to be back on again? I liked when she was on. She was like, well, no insult to me, it's all good, I'm messing, I'm messing. I think it's just, it's an novelty of difference. Oh. Oh, wow. Okay. Now that's cool. No, but seriously, I think also you bring another perspective, another voice, another way and I think also your, I'm just curious and I think they pick up the, I don't know what I don't know. So I ask questions. I don't know. I don't know. In your very warn. I think that's too much. I'll say that too. I've heard that a time or two. When I meet, met people like, oh, your voice and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right, I forget about that. Thank you. That's right. Yeah. But thank you for being here. But thank you too. Thanks for having me. Get the thing out. I know we need to do these thank yous to the therapist and I know we usually don't say things to date these podcasts, but you know, it is kind of in, let's see, how can I say, you know, because I know everybody sees these times this time of the year, the same, but the holiday season, typically in America, but what I would say to it though is, for many people, this could be a hectic time of year. There are some, you know, family dynamics and traditions and society and then also, even if you want to throw the whole holiday part out, I mean, whether sometimes and loss and just the rhythm of life, but I want to think therapists for the space you hold in the many variations of this world. That's what I really want to get to. The highs and lows of society, times of celebration, when, you know, the world is celebrating, but you know the dark side sometimes when, because you're working with the people who are grieving, the broken family relationships, the people who are getting ready to go and be around people that have, they've had some hard times with them, they're working through things with. So, as therapists, thank you for that sacrifice. You make, why you also have your own family, your own things that you're working through. So, thank you for that. Absolutely. That's so good. And also, I want to say another special thank you, because I think hope I got this right, forgive me if not Leanne, January 8th, Leanne and Sue's book will be coming out on trauma. Like I've said before, people have heard me say it's one of my favorite books by Sue, and I was teaming up with Leanne Campbell, who is herself so dynamic and compassionate, and, I mean, she's given me so many tips over the years on trauma work, and I tell people when I'm in training between, you know, Leanne and Catherine, you know, people say James, you organize a lot, and you explain a lot, they're influenced because of the trauma work that they've done. So, we want to definitely go on Amazon now. You can pre-order it. Mine has been on pre-orders in September, so I look forward to getting my copy in. We will have Leanne on the episode to talk about the release of our book, what we can expect, and just kind of, you know, what letters of nuggets that hurts who picked up, you know, years later, as they were updating this text, so I'm excited for that. Nice. But back into the episode that we're in today, it's one that matters. It's one that was interesting that I got to experience, and a while back in an intensive at a very pivotal moment, and I didn't realize how many different ways I'm using this intervention today, particularly talking about, like, externalization. Right. And so, before we get into it, I guess, and I tell you all about, let me tell you what I mean by externalization. That'll be helpful. If you even picked it up from the cold open, the image that comes up for me or my best metaphor and a way for it is, sometimes with your clients, there's a moment in the work we do as therapists, they feel safe. They work with somebody warm and curious, like, Nicole, and then they start opening up and they start sharing. And then all of a sudden, you ask them that evocative question, or just a curious question, all of a sudden, it's like their eyes get big and their body is like, oh, and it's like, you found this spot. And when I say you found it, it's almost like, I'm not quite sure if I'm ready to either omit, see that, feel that, acknowledge that. You notice it as a therapist, and particularly for me, I've learned in life, in life and in therapy to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And so, with those moments, I can't have a, it's okay, we're staying in. Or when, you know, I said it first in the Alaska, shout out to Alaska, I'll let you breathe, but I won't let you leave. Oh. And meaning, I will let you have a breath, but I'm staying. And the reason why I do that staying is not because I'm trying to be mean, but it's, and I want to be careful. There's caution in staying. But I'm staying because, if that vulnerability showed up, then that means it was right on time. Your body let it come to the forward for a reason. And I want to give you an opportunity to have some success with it. What I'm, I'm usually staying is, I don't want to let it beat my clients, because then it keeps teaching them to do the same thing over and over and over again. Right. Yeah, breaking the patterns, right? That's right. So, what I tell myself is, we're going to do something. Something. We're going to do something with it. We might not be able to do everything, but we're doing something because you're, you, you deserve it. Your body needs it. Your relationship needs it. We're going to do something. So, but in that metaphor is also, I can't just always go, like, almost like stare them in the eye and keep coming straight at it and straight at it. Oh, full daunting. I might try a few passes, but then at a moment, this goes what I liked was, you know, George was training. He said, James, do you know the function of the intervention you're using? What is trying to do? So, all those deepening and heightening type interventions is trying to invite a person into a direct encounter and experience with whatever is alive in the room or in their body. But sometimes they can't take that. And I need to read like my intervention, even the while it might be a good one, but it's not for the right time. The client can't take it in. Right. So, then he would challenge me if your intervention works, then what? And so, if the deepening and heightening works, you keep doing more until you get to a place where it's like, oh, now we're going to do our enactment or our own encounter. But then there's a time, say, it's not working. And I say, oh, I'm staring you straight now. I need to pull. In a way, the way I call it is, I need to pull that stare back a little bit. I need to turn my body, but I need even in my intervention, what I'm saying is direct isn't going to work. And then I go to externalization. And now what do I mean by externalization here? I'm probably not going to give the most technical definition, but it is, you know, I'm going to take the thing that you're not comfortable being present with right now in you directly. And I'm going to pull it out in some way, whether in a third person reference, putting it into parts, putting it into versions, or maybe I take it from, it's directly you, and I just make up a kind of like a typical, and it's still real, like a prototype of a person, maybe a strategy like whether it's withdrawal, pursue, or something like that. And then we'll look at that instead of look directly at you. Yeah. But I'm still taking the part of you that I want you to look at, and I'm just pulling it outside to where maybe you could take that in a little bit more directly. You can take that in from an externalized place where you couldn't take that in directly. Yeah. Like kind of like, what would you say to a friend or, you know, like that child or, you know, how, you know, so then it's like they're pivoting their eyes away from themselves directly. Correct. Well, I can, I can activate when it's not about me, right, I can activate a little bit more to nurture or give. Yes. That's a possibility. I'm just, and I've seen that. Exactly. My brain flittered through, like, oh, when you were talking about it, I was like, yeah, externalization, externalization. Okay. Oh, now I feel like I can grasp where I'm at, where I've seen me do that in session. So now it's activated my body a little bit more. Do you have it? And I don't want to put you on the spot, but like do you have a space right now? You could maybe bring up where you saw it, like how you saw it in session. Of course, you don't tell the case, but like, how did you see it? Like, right now, when you were talking, what did you see? Yeah. That is such a great question. I'm like, give me a second. I know. I knew to pull some of the energy off of you before. Both some of the energy. Yeah. My brain is going to get scattered. Well, maybe if a therapist sat in your seat, what would they see in the cold? Yeah. What would they see? I think they would have saw like that, that heightened almost like a panic, like a desperation that they saw on this person, you know, and that it like almost like a overwhelm, like their system was getting overwhelmed. And then being able to use like, hey, you know, we can, you know, we can pause, you know, we can pause here. I have to go any further. And if this was over here, like, how would you advise this person with this or, you know, how, you know, and I think it kind of went in that direction of some sort. Yeah. I'm trying to be careful with my words there, but good job in your respectful of your client. But thank you for what you did. Like, even so that's another way. Not only is it, the way I mentioned it was just as a block that maybe they couldn't take in, but then you got more specific. You might see the panic, the locked in, they're like almost like what I just saw, maybe about a month ago, in time, it was like, it felt like a, a, a while, while West stand up. And the pursuer was like, yeah, and I just kept saying like, so let me make sure I'm not really understanding. Is this what you're saying? They were like, yeah. Yeah. And I could just see like the pursuer was like, I'm not budging. And I'm like, and I felt myself like, oh, this is going to be a challenge today. Yeah. I did it to myself like, no, James, don't do that because you to meet them and lock horns with that pursuer right then would have only driven them further into their protection. Take another route. And that's what this one was. It was like, oh, I'll go around to the side or, oh, no, not side door. I'll take the back door. Oh, that's not working. Where's the window? We somehow, I don't want to leave you trapped inside. And that's the main part. Not fighting. It's like, I see you. And I see something very important trapped inside. I like that, like, and even as a collab, can be collaborative, right? Like, okay, you know, let's try this. Let's try this. Let's try that. The point is I'm still staying with you through it. I'm not leaving you there alone. We can do this with a different, slightly different approach, slightly try and access things in a different way, you know. I'm not leaving you to it with the same old story, with the same heightenedness, with the same stuckness that they've, or even as you describe it, that defense, you know, or protection that comes online, like for good reason that it's there, you know. And so if you move it, which is a fear of it, even if I move this, and if I look at this, what's going to happen in my world, you know, and so that sense of safety there, like great time out, that question hit me when you said that, that might be what's happening for them. And that could be even, I don't know if that would be a formative externalization, I'd just think, but like, that's a good, that's a option there to say, hey, can I just notice something? I just kind of, we all, everybody would recognize that as CPR catch it. I just want to know, it's like right here in this place, and then it will flip, what you did would be the flipping the block kind of almost like, because if, if you did have to stay here, and you had to look at this aspect of yourself, what, what is it? What is it that your body wants to get away from here? Can I just stay here and see that? Like, what is your body's wanting to move away from? Right. Yeah. And I've had that, it will be more frightening, like no one has ever showed up here. This is where I've managed it myself. If I expose myself to you here, then what's going to happen, that means I have to go further into my story. I don't know if I can manage if I go further into my story, you know, this kind of a thing, seeing that. It's like, you know, that, I think for me, just being aware of that for the client, with the client, you know, understanding that there's something valuable there that feels really like protecting. Because I want to come to that example. So can we go to a direct one off of that? Because even if a client says that, my next move would be like, of course, good job on you noticing that. You look at, look at what you just did right here. You were able to tell me like, yes, one, you acknowledge, I can't, that is happening James. And here's all the good reasons why. That is brilliant of you. You've lived this. Like I'm asking you about it, but this is something you've lived in for a while. So how brilliant of you to catch the moment, know the risk is happening. And then you have to make a choice. Because if I do this, it could be too much. Mm-hmm. Good job. Yeah. See how many validations I get in there? Yes. Right. Boom, boom, boom. Yeah. This might be an externalization. Mm-hmm. When, like I wonder, how old were you when you learned this lesson that if I do this, can you take me to that place with you? When you learn this valuable lesson to not do this, so we can pull it off from here, can they take me to that? Mm-hmm. And then all for something, just for some reason, the fact that we moved, they're like, okay. And they'll do that. But I'm like, again, you catch, y'all catch what's happening. Mm-hmm. We are still going to the same thing. Yeah. And it's not, but I think it gives their brain a little bit, because now it's, we're going back to how did you, how did this happen? Right. Then the externalization would stay. So how were you there? Eight? Oh. Okay. So can we just take a moment and look at the eight year old you when you learn this lesson? What was it like for eight year old you when that happened and you learn this? And it's amazing. Some clients, they can take that route. And they will talk about the eight year old them while it was devastating, it was painful, it was this, it was that. Oh. Mm-hmm. And you like, whoof, that was. And no wonder why you learned to do this. And then if you see, and I'm watching their eyes and I watch their body, to see if they're like, they've restable eyes, and I'm like, and even right now, that's what's in you. That's what's happening in the background. That's making you, even right here right now, want to look at it. What a brilliant strategy. Yeah. So good. Yeah. So I've externalized. And then all of a sudden, using that place, they can almost own it. Yeah. And talk about it. So that's the one way I might use it. I feel like that feels like it comes back to that place of integrating. Like it's okay that, oh, I went and touched it already, you know, and I can integrate it with my now self. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I like how that's. And can I say that? That's important, by the way. That's one of the costumes I want to get to. Okay. I think if you do an externalization, I've taken a piece of them out. The way I think, sorry, you know, forgive me. I used to, in my poor days of graduate school, I would try and work on our vehicles. But one of the things I learned was if you take something out, I would set all the parts to an area, because at the end, that parts depot where I put all those parts, it needs to be empty because everything needs to go back into its proper place. Go back, but when you said that, that I love when you said reintegrate it, reintegrate it. So when I externalize it, the power of is that not leaving it external to me, is I want to reintegrate it into some kind of healing way or redemptive, empowered way back into the clients of GoBad. Yeah. No, this is great. I was thinking like that externalizing helps to further cultivate cushions of safety and security, and like, even deepening these software skills, the alliance building on all of that, because, you know, and then you're getting permission, you know, all of this kinds of things to go over to the, like you said, eight-year-old, and we explore there. And then, yeah, of course, coming back and reintegrating it, because this person in front of me that I'm looking at, that I'm seeing, right, that's who I'm working with, not just the eight-year-old, right, and so coming back in to cultivate that together. Yeah, that's it. And I think even, you know, once again, I've been talking about, I'm not trying to only place it in a trauma, you know, frame, but it is important, I think, because if you leave it as the eight-year-old, then do they live their life as an eight-year-old? When do they get to become the healed in a way, I guess, 40-year-old? Right, right. Because that makes, or I shouldn't say just heal, like I say, the healing 40-year-old, right? Yeah, that co-regulating and co-creating meaning back into this moment, right? Can I say, you just gave me another benefit of this I never thought about, that even when you let them have a moment to stay back and like, just look at it, that in itself, I think it goes to something George would talk about too. It helps co-create meaning, is it co-creating meaning, that can also be soothing. So sometimes, when you say, you know, let's pull it back and let's just talk about either, it could be generalized to some type, personal archaeotype or something, a version of themselves, maybe just talking about themselves and third person, it allows them to put a coherent narrative around it sometimes, and why it's difficult and help understand that might give you another entry point as a therapist, but also the benefit for them is, it does give them some space to look at like, oh, I never, because I'm living in it, I don't get to see it like that. Right, I like that, because I'm living in it, I don't get to see it like that. So it's almost, it allows them, this also reminds me of the way Sue described why she loved reflection. That's also what you're doing with a reflection, it's like holding a mirror up to the client so they can see their lived experience, and I think that's also what you're doing with, to me, the way I'm talking about externalization, by the way, and then once again, I guess the reason why I'm giving this to you all is just to have another option, and that's one thing I like, and I tell people, it's not that, you know, George or Ryan or I are any of the many great EFT trainers and therapists, it's not just that they're better, you know, in a way, like somehow they have something that nobody else can do is that they have options when they hit moments, and they know how to kind of go into the bag of their tools and try and use the different options at their disposal, and I'm just saying this is another option of externalization. Yeah, I like that, that part where it's like, oh, I could pull this out. And I know what you talked about fixing a car. There's a tool that I need for this thing, this part, and I pull it out, and I know what, like I'm using it, I know how to use it or try to use it, right? And then being able to catch, you know, okay, it worked like this, it didn't work like this, and to be able to nuance with, you know, how well did that intervention work, and you know, check in, how is it relating with the person as I navigate with them? Yeah. That's good, Nicola, so let me do this too. I want to give some different examples. I think you all have heard. I'm not going to give you a script. Hold on for a second. I chuckle. I want to say why I chuckle. Okay, yeah. He picked up the phone and started taking a photo, so it caught me off guard and I chuckled. So not, it's not attached to what I was saying previously, I felt confusing after you started to move on. I was like, I don't want to, the listeners to be confused, like, that's the action that happened just now. So welcome, hey, good job being aware of the process in real time and calling it out. Good job, Nicola. You're welcome. I am not editing that out. That's staying in. That's good. I like that. Look. Cheers. Good security, right? No, but no, back in, but I want to give some examples real quick. So I've said it already, like, you could talk about a version of themselves maybe, and when I say version, maybe it's a story that happened, and you know that they've grown and chained, so when I talk about people's ages, or maybe it was in a time when they experienced something, but they've grown since then, so that's when I say versions. So can you take me back to that eight year old you, that's a version, or that you, when you were in that place, a couple of weeks ago, you didn't know what to do. You didn't know what to say. But now you have a little bit more experience in wisdom. So what would you say now, knowing what you know now, when you look at that part of you? So it's still, you see how it's still externalized in a way. Yeah. Or generalize to society, you have to be very, that one, you have to be careful one. I think you have to be careful of some of cultural dynamics. You don't want to take in like almost in a way paint over the minority experience with a general population. Just something to be cautious of. I think about it. Yeah. Yeah. So I might say something. I find that the culture there. Yes. Yes. Yes. So just a caution. But when I think about it, it's like, so hey, I get it, you know, as people, you know, we tend to have moments where when things get scary and they get hard, we're going to either shut down, lash out or a combination of the two. By the way, I got that phrase from Leanne that, you know, so I just want to stay here with you though, you know, when you even see that pattern happen in the world, maybe people you care about around you. I'm just kind of curious like, you know, but once again, I'm just trying to find another way to externalize or I do this with my pursuies and with drawers, which I don't call them that in therapy. But I'll say something like, hey, man, I think you know, and you kind of have this pattern or the strategy that when things get really escalated, what you tend to do is find a way to kind of turn the volume down. And usually what I see with people in that strategy, the reason why they're doing is not because they don't care. They actually do care a lot and they can feel that moment rising and then they say, if things get too bad, my partner could be hurt, they might be disappointed. I could fail them and I don't want to do that to them. But then also when that side does that, there's this part when they try to do the best, they still end up feeling that. So that's something I've learned kind of from that strategy and stuff, but that might not be your story. But that is something I've seen in other people. But with the whole time you see what I'm doing, I'm watching them to see if anything lands. When I'm saying I'm watching them, I'm not just talking, I'm watching them to see if they hit not like, yeah, I like that way of creating that distance, but I'm curious though. Does it need of that resonate for you? Yeah. It's almost like it's less shaming or what could land as shaming as a therapist who's trying to shame them. You know, it's not like, why do you shut down, right? That's direct. Direct. Yes. The example that you just use, it helps to soften. It helps to take it out and I've, I noticed these in this kind of a pattern, right? And so it draws that out and like you said, you're watching them to see if something shifts, if it, if it even heightened something in them or gives us a sense of, aha, or all a sense of understanding, even for their make, that's with, you know, the person's with them could even hear you say it like that, right? I love that. Sometimes as you do an intervention, it kind of lends into the, the, the, the, the, the other partner being able to borrow from the moment. What's going on? Yeah. That's good. They can like, lessen that blame if they're at home and you're looking at their spouse. It's like, oh, let me not lean into hard. My therapist kind of did this weird thing. Wow. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. My brain just kind of goes. Right. But even when you're saying that to, it made, you made me think of another thought right when you started talking, is that it gives them a workable or a safe, workable distance from the vulnerable. It temporarily. There you go. It temporarily gives them a safe enough workable distance from the present vulnerability is what you're trying to do with it. Yeah. And so James, you saying you kind of reflect with them like this and then you're watching to see if something high ends, then what do you do from, from there as it's great at a safe distance? Exactly. Then we go back in for the integrating piece. Now that good saying that, Nicole, because remember, there's so many options now that come off of this. And the reason why I'm even in this kind of intervention space is because I was on a track. And then it was, or as George would say, I was on a path and I found out that path was closed. Mm-hmm. So this was a closed, right? Then now, if I see it, this is where George would come in, right, he'd like this out. He won't hear this episode. But then if I do my intervention and the path opens up, I need to watch for that. If the path opens, going back to what you said, stop the externalization and bring it back home, bring it back to the heart and body that's in the room. Right. So then that might be like, so then if I start seeing it land, I might reflect. So I see you nod in your head, I see this water come up in your eyes. As we look at that out there, I'm just curious what's coming, what is that, what is that bringing up in you now for that version of you, for that younger you, for that, you know, whatever that might be? The story you heard, or just whatever, yeah. Okay. And then, or is it, or it might just be the check, like, so I see that and then I go from the general story. Does it need, you know, that resonator is true for you? Are there any, that help people who do a lot of cultural work? Are there any adaptations you need to make to that to make it fit your truth and your lived experience? Yeah. Right. So anyway, so though, so that's, so it might be that, it could be that reflection, then there's some validation, then it might be either I go back to where I was because it really meant something and I need to go back to it. Maybe I'm in stage two and I'm trying to work with their negative view of self. That's a very specific target. So then I might go back to that specific place, or I might be in step seven where I'm getting them to reach for an attachment need. So that's so specific, I would have to go back to that specific thing. Yeah. Okay. But it might say, you know what, this brought up something new and better. I'm going to pivot and stay with this because there's something more here and eventually everyone should know what the answer is going to be. Eventually, that's going to go into some kind of an enactment, or if it's an if it, some kind of encounter is what it's going to go to because now we got the experience, now we're going to put into behavior into a behavioral response or a bit to a behavioral kind of action to change it. Sorry. Trying it on, doing something different. Yeah. That's a better way to say it. Mm-hmm. It's good. No, it's going to say, okay, so you kind of go back into that specific place that you previously were before you had to externalize or one option and then or if it kind of brings up something, oh, okay, let's pivot towards what just came up. And you know what? I'm going to give you all another one. People don't, I might even put both of them out of their front. So hey, we were here. Which path? Do you want me to, do you think you have openness when we go back to that or there's this new thing that's coming up? Which one does your body think we need to stay with that would make a difference for you? Oh, I like that. Then that's also the question. That's right. And also once again, it makes them feel safe and empowering. If you're working with a trauma client, what do they need? They need to feel like they have some power in a time, I mean, like, but it's, you do see, we're going to do something. You can pick which something we're going to do, but we're doing something. Right. Right. And even if they say, I can't do either. Oh, okay. And even can you say that right now, like, this is too overwhelming, it's too much. And I can't even do either option right now. That's how overwhelming it is. If it's in with their partner, and for the partner, it's like, I still, that's still great. Somebody's like, but what if they don't do anything? That's great. Because then I'm going to, I'm going to say, good job on what you did. Thank you for what you're able to do. And thank you for how you even did take some space and look at this from a different angle. But it was too much for your body today. And the job letting us know that and sharing that with your partner, thank you. Then I'm going to go to the partner and says, what is it like in your body to see how hard this moment is? I get even happened right in front of our eyes. That once again, the body, the negative cycles that don't let this in, don't look at this, this could be bad. What does it like for you to see? What does it bring up in your body on their behalf as you see the hard work they're doing right here, right now in front of you? And that's how I would set it up, even for the response back to some of that externalization work, or if they just really get bogged down there. Alright everybody, once again, thank you for letting us just talk about, you know, another option in a way to help people on their leading edge because, you know, that's where they need us, you know, because that's what's bringing them in because right in that place on their leading edge, if they're able to do work there, their life changes, their relationship, their relationship change, for their relationship with themselves, their relationship with others change. So thank you for letting us be with you. Thank you Nicola. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at push the leading edge at gmail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at push the leading edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rainer, Professional Training and on his website RyanRainerTraining.com. You can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at dockhawklpc. You can also check out his website dockhawklpc.com.