Anniversaries & Birthdays

[Music] Hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. My name is Liam Preston and one half of the dad's still standing podcast and with me is my wonderful partner. Oh, do you know, I thought you were going to say assistant. I went to say assistant and I thought if I say assistant, he's going to be living. I've used the word assistant. What would we live in? I am Matt Dinsley. And what we hear from Matt, we hear to talk about anniversaries. Absolutely. So for those tuning in for the first time, this is the dad's still standing podcast, it's a podcast, all about baby laughs, about grief around support for dads and today's episode is all around anniversaries. Yeah. So right off the bat, I had this conversation with Daria last night. Do you call it an anniversary or a birthday? Oh, it's a good question. So I'm saying, Bosch, first question, difficult. And you're going to offend so many people with whatever one you choose. Well, regular listeners will know I don't care whether I offend anyone. So if I'm a offend you, suck it up, back up. I don't know because we've got obviously like four. So I think we're probably lean towards anniversary, but we don't really label it as either really. We don't label it as an anniversary. We don't really label it as a birthday. We just kind of acknowledge it, I guess. What we're talking about in general is the kind of idea behind the podcast was there's that really difficult moment, 12 months after your loss, which would typically be the first birthday of your child. Yeah. And so that I think sometimes we call it anniversary, sometimes we call it a birthday. I just was chalky and I'm thinking, actually, which one is the preferred? Is it one of those where some people go? And that first one is the hardest. Oh, absolutely. That first one is the hardest without a doubt. And they get slightly, I don't know if they get slightly easier. I think you just get better at coping with them. Yeah. And I think it's, it's actually there's loads of significant milestones along the way. So we're predominantly going to be talking about that 12 month birthday anniversary, but actually, I remember when we lost Paloma, I remember thinking, oh, it's seven days now. Yeah. Seven days since we lost that. Yeah, but that's the milestones, isn't it? Yeah. You know, the seven days and then you get to, you give yourself those milestones to give yourself something to focus towards. And you say you do the seven days, you do the funeral, you do, you know, return is the work, which our listeners will know is all stuff that we've covered as well. You know, you might do the six months, you might, but I think six months is a difficult one. I think that was, that's the first one that properly hit me with six months. I tell you one that probably hits me. Yeah. Is due date, we don't have that. Yeah. See what I, I obviously have that because we've had obviously lilies twin. And then we had Harry and Daisy that was 16 weeks. And then we had the one last year that was sort of eight weeks. So we have the, I thought, you know, use anniversary, we have the anniversary of the loss. Right. And then we're conscious of that actually, do you know what this should have been our due date? Wow. This would have been Harry's birthday. This would have been Daisy's birthday. You know, obviously lilies birthday is lilies birthday, but we're also sitting there thinking, you know, it could be Lily's twins birthday as well. That's a bit of a curve ball, isn't it? Yeah, it's a kiss on because Paloma, you know, she died during birth. Yeah. We only have that one day that we focus on. Yeah. So do you have like a calendar? Could you've lost four children? Right. That's a lot of children. Yeah. Yeah. One child is one child is a lot of child to lose. Yeah. Four is four times that. Yeah. So In case you haven't worked at Liam is a part time statistician and mathematician. Four times one is four and that's that's more than one. So yeah. Welcome. Welcome to big school. That's still standing podcast teaching you maths at the same time. Definitely don't want to come to me for that. So four times one is four. So it's just recap in for anybody who's left and come back. So does that mean? Oh, no, you know what I was about to do. I was about to go and four times two is eight. But you've effectively got eight dates that are trigger and points for you, right? Because you have four dates that your children died. Yeah. Plus four dates of their due date anniversary birthday. Yeah. So that's like that. Do you know how I look at it is we've got four dates where we went through the trauma, which is the traumatic ones, which is the dates of the losses. And then we've got four days where we think should be celebrating a birthday today. Okay. But that's just that I'm going to feel down this day rather than. Yes, sometimes I mean, I thought like we discussed on the trigger, like the episode we were talking about triggers and coping mechanisms. I don't really not I don't let that trigger me. Yeah. But I'm kind of emotionally comfortable enough and emotionally aware enough to deal with anything that they confront me. Like I said on the last podcast, I'm on four different journeys. Yeah. I'm at different stages on each of those four journeys. I think that's mad because like I don't look forward to that. Yeah. Like I in my calendar, 24th of November. Yeah. I know it's going to be I know the that week's going to be pretty crap. Yeah. And I know the day before it's going to be awful. I think if I over thought about it, then potentially those like eight dates, like you say, would span probably most of the 12 months. Yeah, that's amazing. So I would end up being really, really down and really, really triggered and really, really upset for 12 months. And I probably make that conscious decision not to be. Yeah. Because you just have to keep keeping it. Yeah, I just, you know, and like I say, I try and if I get triggered, I try and ride the trigger. And I just, you know, let it be. Do you not mean it? Yeah. I'm I'm going to feel how I'm going to feel. But you're that way on because the number, like because you a number of your losses are a few years on now. Yeah. Not all of them obviously, but yeah. So do you think that that eases in time? The more you do something, the easier it becomes. Yeah. So I've done it more than I ever wanted to do it more than I would have ever wanted to do. But it's happened. I've now had to do it, you know, four times. So it's kind of it's easier, isn't it? I do think generally it gets easier. Yeah. But I still think I still look at that. I'd still dread that day. Yeah. And I book it off. So like I already, I've just started a new job recently. And like a man you'll leave come through and instantly just booked off 24th November. Yeah. Because it's the I know I'm going to need that whole day with the family. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a difficult one. Isn't it? And a versus is it is one of those things like you say it gets easier over time. Like for me, the first, the first one I think the first one's the worst. Yeah. Like that. I definitely I also think the second one's pretty like bad as well. But I definitely think that that first one was just just dreaded it for so long. Yeah. I really, really did. And I think if you're out there and you're listening and you've just had a loss or you're still within the first 12 months. Like the reality is it's just gonna be a really shit day. Yeah. I think I think you've got to pay yourself for that. Yeah. Don't try and anticipate how you're going to feel with what I would say. Don't anticipate how you're going to feel. And just kind of go with it. However, you're going to feel on that day. Like Liam says it's not going to be the good day. The chances are you're going to feel really, really shit and it's going to be horrendous. But you will get through it. I was trying to think of her out like when thinking about this episode. Like what to tell people to expect on the day. Yeah. And I felt nervous. I was nervous going into that week. That week of the first thing. Yeah. And I think in it. I think when you know when you've got a funeral coming out. Yeah. And you've got those pre-fumeral nerves. Yeah. That makes sense. Like I had real butterflies that that that first week before it was going to be the anniversary. I think just the anticipation of the day. So is that the anticipation of you putting your pressure on yourself that you've got to acknowledge the day or just. Pressure that or like butterflies that you didn't know what the day would bring you didn't know how you're going to feel. I think it's knowing it's going to be an awful day. Right. And knowing I'm going to feel like shit. And also knowing and we talk about this a lot as a dad knowing everybody around me is going to feel awful. Yeah. So I'm really conscious that Daria and the girls are not going to be in a good place ahead of that day. And on that day. And having to be really conscious of again moving into that classic mode, which we try to tell people not to do. And I'm still doing this year is thinking about how do I support the family through that day and not thinking about how to get myself through. Interesting point now. What I wouldn't advocate not doing that. I think the point is that you have to do that as like there's no getting away from it. As a dad, as a husband, as a man. You still have to do that. But I think the important thing is to make sure that in doing that as well. You will say. looking after yourself rather than putting all the pressure on you to support your family, make sure you're supporting yourself to be able to do that. And it might, it's, you might contradict some of the things we've said in the past, but I think as a bloke, the expectation is that you support your wife, but you need to be able to support yourself and look after yourself enough so that you're able to do that. But I mean, it's that interesting you say about supporting Darius, so like you, you do know a little bit of maths of, you know, four times one is four and then two times four is eight. Now, I was trying to work at eight, did it? Genius. Like those eight dates, I'm probably aware that Lauren is going to need my support on those days. Yeah. Probably more than I need her support. Yeah. So that's probably, yeah, that's probably a big thing is that I know I need to support her because not, and again, this is, you know, men and women grieve differently at any moment in time, we're not going to be on the same page and on the grief handbook, are we? And interestingly, so ahead of this podcast, we dropped somebody on Instagram asking dads to either write into us or send an audio clip of kind of how they're feeling. One of the dads that got in touch, Brian actually said, talking to his partner ahead of the day, yeah, was really important to understand what each other wants. And I think that's a really good suggestion because as you were saying just then, yeah, understanding how you can both move through that day together when you might be on different phases of the journey. I think it's key. Yeah, it's important. I think shit down and say to you, like, you know, your wife, your partner because there's no way that they won't be aware that that day is coming up. So you're not going to surprise them by having a conversation. But I think a little bit, you know, maybe a week or a couple of days before say, look, you know, three or four days time is, you know, the anniversary, like how are you feeling about it? Maybe you thought about what, you know, what you're going to do, like how, you know, how, not how are we going to get through it? But you know, how's it going to go? Like, are you worried about it? Is it going to be going to support you? Just be open and be honest. I think it's the key because if you bottle it up, then the chances are that all the emotions will get triggered on that day. And that would just make the day even worse. Whereas if you know your partner is on the same page as you, or you know how your partner's feeling about it, then you're more likely to get through it. A lot of people go away. Like we, we, I think it's like, like, so a lot of people go away. And I think this really depends whether you're the sort of parents, if you're the sort of people who would want to go and visit your child, depending on what their burial situation is like and whether they're home, whether they're somewhere else. And I just want to go away. And I think that's about just doing whatever you think is right. You know you, no one else knows you better than you know yourself. So you know what works for you. So what works for me might not work for you. And what works for me and Liam might not work for everyone. I think that's really important to one of one of the things that I certainly notice around because because the, the whole focus for us is that one day right? We spoke and we're already. I think what's worse on top of that is Palaumadide at 9.32 in the evening. My glitch our day almost ramps up to that moment. I was on a wire with Daniela. Is that because you put a place of real significance on that time? We must do. Yeah. I think we obviously do. We obviously do. Yeah. So you didn't spend the whole day procrastinating about that. And no. So we do a days worth of whatever we're doing. So we might go and visit Palaumad. We might go out with the family. You know, we'll, I don't know. We'll watch sad. Sometimes we watch sad films to bring the emotions out of us. Yeah. But I know that the all is almost like we, I have to, we have to get to 9.33. Right. Before we can go. Okay. I'm done. You know, not I'm done. Yeah. I'm done for you. We've got for it. Yeah. We've got for it. And I think it's not until that moment. And I often find it. The rest of the house goes to bed because everyone's so knackered and so emotionally drained. It gets literally it gets 9.33. We've done like, you know, had a little chat about this. But like grief is fucking who's all sting. I mean, it's like aside from the significance of that time and the significance of that day, grief is exhausted in any way. It's difficult one. I suppose what I'm trying to say is it gone. I've got a question for you. Right. And it goes back to your question. You asked me straight off about anniversaries and birthdays. Yeah. So on Harry's birthday and on Daisy's birthday. So did the day of day that we lost them. Yeah. We have a birthday cake. And we sit down and Lily and Freddie. Yeah. You know, like Freddie was old enough. He went through it with us. And we sit down and we put a candle in it. And we're seeing happy birthday. Like I think there's going to be people listening. You know, that's absolutely the right thing to do. Yeah. She should be doing that. Nothing other people are listening. No, that's well with. Yeah. But again, that's the right thing for us. That's the right thing for you because we've got like, Freddie's on a grief journey with us. And Lily is to a certain extent because she's old enough now. She, you know, we talk about Harry and Daisy. So she knows that, you know, she's got a brother and sister that, you know, aren't with us. So yeah, I think, yeah, I think that was, well, I don't like she's the word normal because I don't think anything is normal anymore. Is it? No. But that's something we do. I don't know if it's something some of our listeners do. So some of them will probably go, not a bit weird. Yeah. So we did it the first year. Right. And then we didn't do it the second year. Yeah. Because for some reason, the second year was really, really hard, particularly for Daria. Right. And it was one of those, I don't want to see anyone don't speak to anyone. I want to shut myself off and go away days. Right. And so I think previously we'd done cakes. Yeah. And didn't. And I think we did want to further third birthday for the Pelletmous third birthday. Yeah. So I think, I think it literally, I think it can change year to year. But I don't think I think it's nice. I remember coming up to the first one and Daria and I was, I was in that, I think it's a bit weird camp. I wasn't like, I was in it. And Daria just went to me, it's my daughter's first birthday. Yeah. We're getting a fucking cake. And I was like, I'll get a fucking cake then. And with it, and it was, it was nice. I think it's a nice thing to do. It's a celebration. You know, they have, you know, we talk about they, they lived for a time. Then, you know, they should do it. It's not, it's still part of me. And it's interesting to use that word celebration as well. Because I think there's almost this bullshit stigma. Yeah. That if you suffer the baby loss, it's not something you should celebrate. But I think people don't realize you're not celebrating the fact that you've lost the baby. You're celebrating the fact that that baby was part of your family. And as you say, absolutely. But whatever stage your loss was, that baby still existed. That baby was still part of your family, you know, and especially for the, you know, the women that, there was that physical bond. Yeah. So yeah, come with that baby. So yeah, if you think that when you're having a birthday cake, that you celebrate and the fact you've lost the baby, you're not, you're celebrating the fact that your baby existed. And it was part of your family. And if anyone tells you that you're celebrating the baby loss and it's weird, tell them compliments of mat and Liam, go fuck yourselves. Absolutely. Basically, I mean, you're right. That's exactly what it is. But I do wonder that thing around like the time thing and wonder whether anybody else goes, like, thinks about that as well. I personally don't think you don't know. But again, you know, and you've kind of thrown me a little bit of a curveball when you've done your maths, you've like, well, that's like eight dates. Yeah. It would be too much for me to think about, like, you know, that's a lot of money on cake there. No, but I let my cake. But it would be a lot of stuff to think about about the, you know, the times and I think it's okay to part some things in a, we're going to really focus on this. Yeah. And actually, this is something we're going to acknowledge internally. You've got to focus on the important details and, you know, sometimes work out what is an important detail in your journey and what is an important, non-important detail in your journey and part of the non-important stuff. So if I listen to, you know, you're wherever you are on a bus on a, on a train, get in touch with us. It's @dadstillstanding on all of the socials, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, email the show, [email protected] and let us know what you guys are thinking and feeling. What was it like for your first anniversary? Did you, did you do cake? Did you not do cake? Is it coming up? Are you worried about it? Are you anxious? You know, what, you know, if you've got any questions, please, please send them through. Again, we had, we had a number of dads that got in touch for us. Benjamin was one of them and he was talking about, you know, the whole thing, what, how do you prepare for the day? How do you, you know, how do you support your partner? A lot, like Brian, I think that's a really good point. I think a lot of dads listen to this because they're looking to get an understanding of how support from other dads, but also we know a lot of moms listen to the podcast. And if you are a mom listening to this, I suppose what I'd say to you is, just reach out to your husband ahead of time. and just please don't think he's going to be able to give you everything that you want for that day. And just do it together. That conversation with Benjamin and Brian both put like got to talk to your partners. - Yeah. - And don't leave that to. And then, Anniversary is one of those days where. And we talk about grieving separately. It's one of those days where you've got to grieve together. Yeah. And that's where teamwork comes in. And again, we talked about relationships and the challenges of keeping them together. And actually, I think there's some really significant points in the lost journey where you've got to be whole together. And this is definitely one of them. And I think that the sooner you can have a conversation about what you want to do on the day, the better because putting that planning in place will make things much easier. Matt gives him this look occasionally where he's like, "I think I've just come up with a good idea." - No, it's a question. - Come on. - Is it like you can see the lightbulb? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Where do you stand on saying to like friends and family, "Poloma's birthday's coming up?" - Are you gonna acknowledge it? - So? - Are you gonna celebrate it? - So. - We were really concerned ahead of that first birthday that people wouldn't care. - I think this first, we were worried people wouldn't care. We were worried it wouldn't be acknowledged as well. I think I put that within the context that we'd gone for a year where I didn't think we got enough support from our family. I thought they're pretty average. Not everybody, I will admit that. But there were some really key people that are just not very good. I think that coming up to that 12 months, I was really conscious. I wanted for me and for Poloma, but also I wanted for Daria that she felt Poloma was recognised in the people around our lives. So, we were very conscious that we said to people, "We want a birthday card." Not, you know, we've simply got a card or a thinking of you. Wanted a card, to Poloma, happy first birthday, even saying that sounds weird. But back to the cake thing. But I just think that's just what we wanted. We wanted to live that. It's our baby's first birthday. And just to acknowledge that. - Were there people that you didn't have to ask that just did it? - I think I was so concerned that people wouldn't. I just told everybody. - Okay. - Because I couldn't take the risk of not getting it from someone. - Okay. - And I think with all been in relationship with partners, who've been like, "If she doesn't do this, I'm not going to speak to her again." - And so, that is not what Daria sounds like. - I love you, boo. - No, she listens to you. - She listens to you. - She does listen to you. - I am dead. - I am dead. - Liam might not be on the next episode. - Yeah, so if you'd like to audition for that still standing, please get in touch. - I've got a list of people. - I'll fantastic. - I'll get in touch with him. - Brilliant. I knew there were people that if it was one of those, if that person doesn't do it. And again, we're full of, we've got a big group of mates now. And we're in, like, in terms of the boys from the football team. - Oh yeah. - And so I've had conversations with them where it's just like, "Oh, my partner hates my mother-in-law. "On my partner really doesn't like this person, or this person "hasn't really supported us." And I think that you've really got to, I think go out of your way to make sure that those people you think may fuck this up, get it right. And again, I think I'm talking probably to the dad's here more than anything else. If you think you know the person that's going to offend you by inaction, then get in touch with them to make sure they do something positive. - No, almost front amount. - But it doesn't need to be like that. But if you have to, do it, you're trying to kick off of them. - I'm not just saying. - You're like, "You're up for a fight." - Hey. - I'm just saying, some boys ready to go. - No, I'm just, I've been in the car part and some boys ready to go. - I think it's important that-- - But you weren't car the way. (laughing) - I think it's important that you, if you've got a need for something, yeah? And someone's not providing that need for you. - Yeah. - And you haven't asked them to provide that need. Then you've got no entitlement to be offended. - Okay. - Is what I'm getting at. So if there's someone you're thinking, "Do you not, their inaction is gonna really, really offend me." If they're not aware of that, 'cause they've got stuff going on in their life, if you don't tell them, and again, this might be controversial. - Yeah, I think this is controversial, but I'll tell you what, you bang on, boy. - There might be people listening going, "Oh, fuck, no, no, you're wrong." If you've not told that person-- - I'm with your brother. - That you're expecting them into a knowledge or to celebrate or to provide a birthday card, and they don't provide a birthday card. That's kind of your fault. - You've gone too far? - No, but-- (laughing) - I think people have switched off. - No, I'm with you. - That's what I'm, that's what I'm, that's what I'm, that's the point of getting. So when I say front amount, I don't even go, "Oh, I'm saying is go to them and say, "my daughter and my son's birthday's coming up, "I'm expecting you to give me a birthday card." Or you to give my wife a birthday card. - I went with that. And then if they don't, then you can turn around and go, "I'm annoyed at you." - But if you haven't had that conversation, then you cannot turn around to them and say, "I'm annoyed at you." - I agree, because I think it's so hard in this area, generally, to know what the right thing to do is if you've not come through a lot yourself. And so I think you do need to just be really so. I think I went to people and said, "Look, it would really mean a lot to us, "it would particularly mean a lot to Darry out." - If you send a birthday card. - It's important how you frame it. - Yeah, of course. - I think it's important how you frame it. But we've got a friend, and I've mentioned her before, like mine and Lauren's best friend, Kate, and she absolutely now is it every year, every anniversary, every birthday, just absolutely now is it. - And we don't have to ask her. - Yeah, it's lovely, we've got that. - We've got a few, we're pretty cool. - Yeah. - Straight from the office, you're just absolutely nailed it. So on that, so rewind in a minute. So ahead of the first birthday, I think we were so concerned that people wouldn't properly acknowledge Paloma. We sent out little gift packages. - Jermaine. - What? - It's not like if you go to the fucking Oscars and you get like a bag of stuff, right? But we sent people out little gift boxes. Inside them, we'd got a, like a copper tin, we'd got a candle made. And then we got a little sticker on it that was about Paloma. And then we'd got a, I'm trying to feel what else was in it. So it was a candle that you could burn on the night. Because we wanted everybody to light a candle at 9.30. - Okay, okay. - So lighting a candle for, I then think we got everybody a little dove ornament. Yes, we did. We got everybody a dove ornament because Paloma in Latin means dove. So doves, I've mentioned this before, doves very significant to our family. So we got everybody on them for their Christmas trees. So at Christmas, they'd have a little dove on it. That makes sense. So we did that. And then a little, I think maybe a Paloma or something like that. But it was just our way of saying, we want you to acknowledge her. And if you could light a candle, that would mean a lot to us. - That's weird. Because we put a dove on our Christmas tree. - Well, in fairness, doves very much. Well, doves are a symbol of Christmas and being can be a symbol of death. - A symbol of death as well. But there are some people who, as you were coming back to me, you were talking about Kate, that there is someone out there who you would not expect to, like, oh, no, I'm calling out one of my own friends here. So I got a mate. - Oh, yeah. - I might be, but in a good way, I'm going to name Jo, it's Silve. So my mate Silve, is Romanian. - Okay. - So my mate Silve, Silve you. - Silve, okay. - Okay. He, I say he, it's probably his partner released the did it, right? But every year, without fail, we get a gift box from them, full of like chocolate, sweets, something significant. And you know what I'm like? I've got a lot of really close mates. - Yeah. - And if I'm honest, I would not have thought it was those that would have done it. - Yeah, but sometimes people surprise you. - But that's what I mean. - And it's not always the people you expect. - No, it's not. But they've just thought it's really, it's just jumped back in my head. But yes, like you say, like we had people that you think would have stepped up and they'd been absolutely fucking terrible. - Yeah, yeah. - And I'm not going to name drop. Even though I know they don't listen to the broadcasts. But they've been absolutely, and still till this day, I just, - What's that you're laughing at? - Mark, Mark, John. Liz and Ant, Liz and Ant, and he's laughing. I thought that, is that anyone you know? - No. - Julie. - I don't know anyone called Mark. - I don't know anyone called John. I don't know anyone called Liz, and I don't know anyone called Ant, and he, so you picked out four names of, you know? - But you need to get more friends, don't you? I think that's what we're coming out of this for. - But, - No, you're not calling it. - It's true. - But that's something that we did. And so again, if you're coming up to your first anniversary of your loss, or if there are any others, like you know, second, third or fourth, I think you can do something like that. That was quite a nice thing that we did. We don't, it meant that we felt people were knowledge of the Paloma's first birthday. And yeah, and I think, you know, just coming, I think going forward, there's lots of different ways that you can do it. Also, look. look at what other people have done. I think that works. - Yeah, like Instagram's full of really great posts about what people do on that first anniversary after I lost. - Yeah, Instagram's good on. - It's just a minefield, isn't it? It really is. - Like, it's just one of those. It's just another mine in the minefield of grief, isn't it? - Really. - But you're right in your point, like if you want people to celebrate with you, you need to help and support them to do that with you. And don't expect too much. Is there anything else in terms of the first year what you would do to prepare ahead of time? I think think about going away if you want to. - I think just communicate with your partner. - Yeah. - That's gotta be the main one, isn't it? Communicate with your partner. Make sure that for that, at least just for that day or for that week leading up to it, you're both on the same page. Because I think that could be difficult if you're both in different places. - So that's like the first anniversary, right? Second, third, fourth. - Like I'm going, I think we're going into our fourth now with Paloma. And I am looking at it thinking, I don't think it's gonna affect me as much as the others have. - Yeah, but that's, - It might just come out this morning. - But that's not bad, I know. - Just like I say, you've done it before. You will naturally human progression is if you repeat doing things, you will get better at it. - Yeah, for. - So the advice out there, so the data that I'm listening, big advice is try and speak to your partner ahead of time around what they want, what you want to do. Make a plan for the day. So important. - Don't pressure yourself in how you're gonna feel. - Exactly. - Not right at it, but just let it be. How you feel on that day? It's how you're supposed to be, how you're supposed to feel. You won't feel that way forever. - Yeah. Plan out what you want to do ahead of time. Think about exactly what you want to do right across the day. I think Rural got in touch, didn't he? He said something around that specifically. If you can have a plan for the day, that's really important. So I think he goes and visits his son. - Yeah. - Is it a grade, doesn't he? - Yeah. I think that's really important to try and have that. Have a plan ahead, have a plan for the day. Make sure you do everything you want to do. But just try and communicate. So yeah, for the data, they're trying to speak to your partner ahead of time to see what it is they'd like to do. And that doesn't have to be for the first anniversary. It could be for the second, the good V4, for whichever you're at. - If you're on your fifth anniversary, and you think you can actually do know what, because of everything that the world's gone through in the last 12 months, you know, last last two years, this one might be the first one where we're almost back to a normal world. And you're really, really anxious about that. - Yeah. - That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Just because you're already done for an anniversary, it doesn't mean that the fifth one is going to be the easiest one. Yeah, it might be the worst one yet. And that's okay as well. - So I think we're probably coming towards the end of the show now. But like I say, please, please, please get in touch with us. It's dad's still standing [email protected]. - Yeah. - Our podcast, same handle for all of them Matt. - Yeah. - Dad's still standing on all the socials. You can go on the website. - Yeah. - website. - That's the standing.com. And most importantly of all, please, please, right review. We've had some lovely reviews coming in. I've got to say, for those of you who have written reviews, they're so nice and like the man, I really, really appreciate it. - So I just, I only write a good review. - Yeah, I mean, I don't know. You can listen to something. - No, it's actually, but if you listen to it, if you've just stumbled across it, and you think, - And this is not what you thought this was going to be. And you think, oh, that's crap. I don't want to read your review. I'm not interested. - It doesn't. - I only want to read good reviews. - But, you know, it's just really nice. It's really nice to know that what we're doing is helping people and that is evaluating it. And it just, it means a lot to us. So thank you so much. And again, the big one for us is just sharing it. Like if you know anyone you think this would be interesting. Listen to this. If you, you know, especially for us, I think the biggest challenge is reaching that's because, you know, not a lot of that's talk about this, which means it's harder to get word and mouth to spread it. But I think where we get a lot of support is through the mums as well. So if you are a mum out there and you know other mums who might be interested, if you're a dad, you know, other dads, you think might be interested in hearing as well, please just do us a favor, share the podcast because actually you don't know who you're going to be helping on any certain day. And I think some of the nicest messages Matt and I get on the podcast is when someone goes, I really needed that today. - Yeah. - And it's so lovely to hear that. And we really do appreciate it. - Engage with us. - Yeah. - And, you know, we've got some really cool stuff coming up. - We've had a great time. We hope you've got some tips from what we've been talking about. I hope I haven't offended anyone too much, but people know what I'm like. People know that I'm going to be honest and I'm not going to hold any punches. But listen, I've been Matt Deersley. I've been Lee Impresson. We hope you've learned some maths as well. This has been the dad's still standing podcast. Until next time, peace. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)