Anna Konkle on Pen15 & the Sane One

hello david hi rosabelle it's such a delight to be talking to you after all this time after all these many attempts now am i right in thinking you're a bit sick at the moment i'm a bit thick sick i would never call you thick no it's because i'm wearing this retainer i'm slurring some words it's a real problem oh my god now look rosabelle i've got some great news for you you and i i know are both big fans of pen 15 and today on the show we have anna conkle who was one of the co-creators and stars of pen 15 an amazing tv show it is amazing it's one of the best shows what is your favorite thing about pen 15 there were just so many incredible details that it felt like not like a therapy session but you know when people unearth details about being that age and you're like oh my god that's exactly what it was like or that's exactly that weird thing and you're like oh my god that's exactly what it was like or that's exactly that weird thing that i did yeah that you'd never really thought about since right exactly because it seems so inconsequential or so embarrassing that you repress it and suddenly all those things are and also how strange that they're so universal whether you're in new zealand america we're all the same and i got to observe whilst we've had this conversation about today's flightless bird episode i feel you've really perked up i feel like you might be getting better i think you've all along i'm david farrier and new zealand are accidentally marooned in america and i want to figure out what makes this country tick now i think it's fair to say that rob and i both enjoy elements of american pop culture and somehow with me in new zealand and him in the usa we both got very obsessed with a show called pen 15 was a series airing in 2019 about two awkward seventh graders trying to navigate school the catch was the two leads were played by a couple of women in their 30s while everyone else was played by actual kids essentially two 31 year olds in a sea of 13 year olds if you're wondering why it's called pen 15 by the way which i did was an old prank i think in america i don't think we had this in new zealand where you'd get someone to write pen 15 club on their arm to join the the pen 15 club but of course pen 15 looks like penis and so you're writing penis club on your arm did that happen to you rob i know about the pen 15 club yeah the show tapped into many amazing elements of being a kid especially being a kid in the usa and so when we heard co-creator anna conkle had a book coming out reflecting back on her own life and the show and a bunch of stuff flightless bird is really interested in we had to have her on so be prepared to go back in time to america in the year 2000 along with dysfunctional family dynamics pimples bowl cuts and awkward first kisses because this is the anna conkle episode hi rob hi david how are you good good welcome back it's nice to be back whirlwind trip new york city baby yeah you you really went across the whole country i'm walking here get out of my get out of my way you pick up some new sayings while you were gone a bit like that i went to new york for the first time in a long time i'm not sure if you're familiar with new york city but i'm sure you're familiar with the new york city i'm sure you're familiar with the new york city i'm sure you'll know about because we did an episode about reflecting on them we won two awards trophies are on the way allegedly in the mail i had a fun night a lot of uh a lot of celebrities around a lot of cake a lot of cake i got served so many bits of cake felt ill at the end of it it was a beautiful new york spring um and probably my highlights besides the webbies were i went to a boy throb concert which we will discuss over on patreon um boy throb are a new boy band are they real are they not we don't know what's going on very curious about that and what else there was something else oh i did an episode i recorded an episode which i'll put together kind of about rubbish in new york because new york we talked about this a little bit a very they love putting their rubbish bags out on the street there's a lot of rats you see rats everywhere and so i recorded an episode sort of based around rubbish well i'll keep i'll keep my initial thoughts to myself keep them to yourself and i can't believe pen 15 was seven years ago one thing i really dislike about getting older is you look back on some of your favorite things and it feels like they were a couple years ago and you find out that oh that concert was 20 years ago now that album came out 15 years ago oh pen 15 is almost a decade old yeah that's crazy it's horrible i started re-watching it this week oh yeah because i knew we were gonna have conversation about this and i wanted to uh remember what i loved about the show because it's been so fucking long ago i think my main takeaway in the first few episodes is just how cringy being a kid was like that's what they captured so perfectly on that show and if you haven't seen it these two lead actors anna being one of them and maya and maya they they age themselves back to their age so well like it's a real magic trick they give anna braces and style of her hair yeah as you would have in the 90s and i think maya has just like a retainer and a bowl cut yeah the bowl cut is incredible and i mean i i had braces at school uh i was on i had pimples all over my face um i got glasses when i was about 15 i was a complete wreck and you're already feeling so not at home in your own body when you have to throw this other shit on top of it like hair cuts and what fashion you're wearing it just becomes it is it's a nightmare and pair 15 reminds you of all of that well it reminds you just how insecure you are as a kid how hugely important every little thing that actually matters not at all now yeah um was that it it was hard to watch more than a couple at a time just because it brought me back to such a weird time yeah it's brutal they're brutal things to watch and it's and it's things like the you know your crush what what you think of them and how you communicate with them and parties and what your parents are making you wear and all that stuff what backpack you're wearing well i'm like bullying and like they're one of the early episodes um maya thinks that some of the like cool guys have a crush on her and it all culminates to them fighting at the schoolyard and trying to figure out what's the meanest thing you can say to them and she ends up pushing it too far and i'm cringing saying something about his his dad dying yeah awful it's like it's a bit it feels a little bit like a caribbean enthusiasm energy a very different style of show but hard to watch at times because you're just inwardly dying and you have to be in the right mood to be up for that but also so good because it's it perfectly encapsulates the nostalgia of growing up a 90s kid yeah which so speaking of i i just came from an elementary school because calvin had an orchestra recital so it was it was like felt very much set the scene uh i mean you wait in line with a bunch of parents um that i don't know i'm hearing some of them in front of me talk about like the kid at soccer that they hate that's like a bully gossip about the kids at the school um and then it's just packing in to the auditorium which is not very big are you sitting on rows of plastic chairs or you're they're folding metal metal folding chairs okay that are set up but just like really scattered a lot of people lining up on the walls i think to be able to escape if they need standing yeah and just like get out early if which is get the hell out of here yeah and then there it was like a whole bunch of chairs in front of different sections of the auditorium and then it was like a whole bunch of chairs in front of different sections of the orchestra and then up on the stage was um like the reed instruments and so calvin's playing the trumpet he was back left row like i couldn't even see him um but he like kept poking his head out to wave because he'd be looking like they're all looking for their parents these kids right that's so that's why you're there yes that's also the most like heart pulling thing when you go to these is like you're walking in the auditorium doors and you're seeing the kids like poke their heads around like you're like a sea of little parrots yes and if they don't see you like you see them uh just like searching for you i feel it's a key moment in so many american films where the parents rushing to get to rehearsal or something to get to like a performance yes and then make it or go he's yeah and he gets pulled over by the cop yeah all of that very end but the kids looking around and yeah it's like devastating yes okay so calvin spotted you spotted me waved right uh how the big thing how was the performance well i want to give it a rating out of 10 i wanted to do great zero being a fucking nightmare i wanted to do a test with you i wanted to see if you could tell some of the songs that they were playing okay are they sort of modern covers or are they all classics we'll find out a bit of mozart we'll find out oh you know you know ♪ Na, na, na, na, na, na, na ♪ yeah i know that song what is it it's huge hey june okay beetles okay you better get this i have no idea what this is oh i thought it was close at one point just give me one more give me one more go one more go of it okay no i have no fucking idea uh that was all star by smash mouth oh wow hey now you're an all-star which i did love some of these choices i feel like i almost bits of that were registering something in my mind this last one you better get oh jurassic park my god beautiful keep it going keep it going is that a little flute recorder in there this is beautiful rob that's incredible incredible some some discordant notes in the mix a little squeaky look as someone that attempted to play the saxophone in high school and was terrible at it that shit's hard it's really hard that they did really well they're little kids i mean this this was a really good song i think it's a really good song i think it's a really good song i think it's a perfect way to spend my morning we're about to go reminisce on pen 15 um your brain is just full of that noise how long was the performance roughly like half an hour it was an hour long an hour long they did four i mean the nice thing was that nothing was longer than like 20 or 30 seconds okay oh little snippets of things they didn't play full songs ever were there any kind of kid freakouts or meltdowns or moments that sort of stood out or they all held it together well all held it together um one of the i guess they got a pick so it was like four full orchestra pieces but then each section of the orchestra did uh two to three songs that they picked cute that were just like short okay 15 second bits one of them was slim shady the kids are still kids are still listening to eminem i couldn't hear it at all um when they played it but yeah amazing we were told it was slim shady and how just finally afterwards how was calvin was he stoked with his whole thing was he happy yeah he was very happy he ran over and yeah rob my heart jurassic park that was beautiful okay should we roll our interview with wonderful anna conkle yeah let's get into it thank you for being here thanks for having me let's rewind to pen 15 because that's how i think a lot of people would have come to your work i know rob and i came i think to your stuff that way okay and i said i'm going to do a little bit of an interview with you and i'm going to do a little bit of an interview with you and i'm going to do a little bit of an interview with you to you earlier roosevelt and i in new zealand watched that show and adored it and i think what sort of what was sort of was interested about for our show which is about american culture is that was sort of a very specific time in being a kid in america in the what sort of 2000 yeah 2000 america online dial up you're an 87 baby yeah i'm an 88 so it was 82 very lined yeah well i always want to know like if it you know and i'm so curious for new new zealand if it felt like resonant or where you were like well that's weird that's not us oh it resonated you grew up in new england yeah which is its own type of america and maya was la yeah so how was figuring out what was it just universal mostly yes i mean we sort of decided that you know we didn't talk about it much but that it was like anywhere ville usa and we're kind of stuck in the middle of it and we're kind of stuck in the middle and limbo as these you know when we first pitched it 28 year old women in like at our 13 year old psyche and we're just stuck surrounded by like real kids and we're just fucked um i know so weird for anyone if you're listening to this or watching and you haven't seen the show you need to watch the show but essentially you as adults are playing 13 year olds yeah your cast mates are much younger so real 13 year olds which just and you both you and your co-star co-creator both age yourselves down and like braces and hair and stuff yes and hair no one mentions the hair i'm always like the added hair we added hair to our eyebrows we added to our like it's pre-plucked it's insane thank you for appreciating that the details was amazing and that whole thing but you know the the conceit of the show was you were acting against kids deeply unusual thing to pitch and really unusual thing to make if you didn't know this already especially when there's like love interest storylines too yeah yeah well we were faced early on with that of just like coming up with it and then be like let's start talking about in meetings you know and like see how this goes yeah this is gonna go great and people were like that's illegal like you can't do that you know just off the bat and we were like no no there's a way but it forced us quickly to have a pitch for the directing of it which was like we are doing these like ren and stimpy you know extreme close-ups where you know if you're making out having your first kiss it's really close and then you're like oh my god i'm gonna you're bringing in your partner and you've ruined your real life partner you're ruining your sex life and what was the sort of the shared childhood things you you sort of came up with together was that kind did it feel universal what you were playing with we were so psychotic about the details that it was natural for us to debate and analyze like what was happening in la versus my town because maya grew up you know she went to crossroads middle school private middle school in la like it's snooty is it like a snooty school yeah and just like she was like you know everybody had louis vuitton and or prada and did it and i i didn't really know what that was yeah right but it was interesting to have those sort of discussions about like socioeconomic class stuff and culture and still come back to the same you know swimming up stream and just trying to survive and needing a best friend to survive the everyday things but like yeah the details of it are so important to me and i think it's really important to me and i think it's really important to me and i think it's really important to me and i think hills were debated constantly where we were like no it's a nano pet it's not a giga pet or whatever the fuck what was the most like earth shattering thing that you thought was uh universal that maya was like no that's not that's a really good question that's what david's finding out constantly on this show yeah yeah different uh world view yeah upbringing everything one of them was like and it most of the writers weren't comfortable in the room just admitting every secret that they had but maya and i would yeah right we probably yeah i feel like we could have gotten sued we're like but when did you begin masturbating tell us she kept asking me and i was like um but like maya she's been open about this and it was like was in high school i think when she began and i like didn't i don't think i had an orgasm certainly not from myself until i was like 28 or something like that and so i don't think i had an orgasm i don't think i had an orgasm like sexuality stuff was really interesting yeah which is the truth but that's the case when you're a kid that everyone is doing everything at such different yeah times and all trying to like be the cool one and like be the normal one there was a rumor that went around about me when i was 13 and i had the nickname icebox which unfortunately was brilliant and it was that i masturbated with an ice cube and really what had happened it took me decades to admit what really happened what happened i was playing um truth or dare in fourth grade and i dared my neighbors to put an ice cube in their underpants but like totally innocent like weird freak kids yeah but that got twisted and it came up two years later and an eighth grader asked me or i guess many years later i was in seventh grade and she saw him in the hallway and was like i heard you masturbated with an ice cube and i was like i have no idea what you're talking about subjectively very funny very funny and then some fucking asshole brilliant asshole came came up with icebox and it never went away like through college people would text me late night like what are you doing icebox and i was so sensitive it was terrible and so funny and then my on the other hand had the and i wasn't was it like i wasn't so not connected to that side of myself just to be clear i wasn't clear and then on the other hand there was like inverse where maya was you know feeling shame about her connection with her sexuality which she obviously shouldn't and so there was a lot of like exploring the slut shaming and there was no way of doing it right you know what i mean whether you were like a prude or whatever a slut the thing the thing that i often think about with the show is how you perfectly captured those early kind of forays into the internet and what that was like and i think obviously the internet is everywhere now everyone's online but so it was a different time where everything wasn't online and you were sort of figuring that out was it you know what you're going to put on your myspace and all that stuff that must have been fun to remember was i feel so sad like i truly get emotional when i think about it because it was such a it was just enough you know like there are times now where i'm like i need some sort of something i can put on my computer that makes everything slow again and take a really long time to load or whatever um but it was really fun that the aim episode i was really obsessed with and and yeah i like that it's something that kids now could look at and be like you know it's like probably a horse and buggy to them do you think our generation got lucky that we got to explore that and it is not as permanent as things are now and that like our away messages and aim screen names and all that shit was so profiles and like weird inside jokes you'd put on them yeah picking the song that would go with your profile all that stuff and it was fun transitioning from no internet to living in that world with internet yeah so good so good i know the door opening that feeling you know the door shutting like that those sounds so what did you guys have that was in new zealand was it it wasn't eol we got the internet i remember getting the internet when i was probably 15 or 16 okay it was dial up so it was like a 33.6k modem was that right i think we dial up and we went we didn't have america online right so we had our is so boring our isp internet service writer was extra um e xtra oh it didn't cost that's what it was called extra and when you logged in extra too though did it cost a lot so when you logged in you you arrived to x world and i still remember it it's these two like it's like these crossroads that made an x and like if you clicked on that building you'd get to like your search engine and if you clicked on that building you'd get to the encyclopedia building there was like a rendered world x world was like an image and it would load up and it was so fucking exciting so remember x world being really cool it was five dollars an hour um so that was insane insane because you quickly racked up a lot of money on the phone line um and the only other thing i really remember is like those early days of chatting online where you'd go asl to people um age slash sex location location anyway this is just my you know we had x i could talk about this all day it's really good stuff okay so just how much of that in in the show was it was all drawn from your own yeah place right most of the events are real yeah or and are some sort of mash-up of me and maya's lives for the most part so when you when you got into writing this book about your life like that was going even deeper into the personal or was like did it feel like pen 15 was like a little dry run for that i do think it was a dry run but the it's you know the semi in front of semi autobiographical it does like a lot of work where you get to hide behind that i think yeah like i got the question a lot in the press stuff of like oh you know where your parents really because there's the whole storyline of like them getting divorced and splitting the house in half for two years and and the fighting that we like did an episode where there's like you know it's like a wiccan episode but they're fighting a lot and i try to do a love spell as one does on them so good rosabelle also did a lot of love spells in her childhood that was a thing yeah love spells were happening and like any kind of witchy spells yeah and if that was happening in new zealand oh really okay yeah i did a lot of like i was raised more like an only child i have a half brother that's 11 years older and grew up separately so a lot of the pretend wasn't with my it was like by myself in the woods doing like weird potions i'm fine um that's why the title of my book is the sane one it sells you stay tuned for more flightless bird we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors support for flightless bird comes from grow therapy if you are navigating anxiety burnout relationship stress postpartum challenges or just the ups and downs of your everyday life living in 2026 you're not alone but you don't have to figure it out alone either grow therapy makes getting help feel doable yeah whatever you're carrying family conflict self-doubt sadness that won't quite lift growth therapy is built for that whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th growth therapy makes it easy to find a therapist who fits you not the other way around they connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists around the united states offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends and there are no subscriptions or long-term commitments you just pay per 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going to shoot it what we're going to do the logo rob did a lot of that stuff but it was still super overwhelming and every day seemed to introduce a new decision that needed an answer my point is that basically when you're starting off with something new it seems like your to-do list keeps growing every day with new things and it can really overrun your life finding the right tool that only helps you out but also simplifies everything can be such a game changer for millions of businesses and us that tool is shopify basically shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 of all e-commerce in the united states from household names like momofuku to brands just getting started you can accelerate your efficiency whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones and you can get the word out like you have a whole marketing team behind you you can easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are 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hundred and twenty bucks a year can save you time and over seven hundred dollars want to get in on the membership duo of the century visit sam's club.com come join us sam's club annual plan only auto renews tnc apply estimate based on average combined walmart plus and sam's club plus savings among members of both for one plus year versus non-member or club member pricing slash fees excludes membership fees see walmart plus terms and sam's club terms for more info well yeah with those the questions about my parents maybe like they're crazy right or like is that how it really was and i was like that's the tip of that iceberg that was like the t the comedy version of it and they're very funny people like my dad is was the very you know fast witted dark sense of humor but he was also like a human resource manager got fired all the time because you can't be that was my dad's job as well stop did he was keeping his jobs all right or he had new jobs all the time like i think they just move around a lot okay maybe i'm jumping to conclusions i need to rewrite my memoir he was a bus driver in chicago and then became human resource manager and worked at like eight companies doing that was he quite an appropriate person if you don't mind me asking he he was he's very wholesome he was almost a priest and then wanted to start a family and left seminary school to do that your rob's dad is very pure and i think he's only ever been with my mom oh my god bless him yeah my face went down but i was it was respect that was happening inside um okay well maybe maybe i need to do some rewrites i just figured after looking back that like yeah he got fired kind of a lot my dad right but maybe human resources is just a hard yeah i think it's a hard job to keep for a long time wow okay so that's accurate that like from the show the your parents putting very different life that you had post that point that is definitely accurate and i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i think that's a good point and i think there was just like sort of these more intense storylines below that i was going through when we were pitching pen 15 and when i moved to L.A. with my dad. And so, you know, in a way it was nice and pen to like take the easier things to talk about and put them in there. And and then I always had this sort of like inkling that I would want to write more truthfully about sort of other stuff over time. You had a falling out with your dad when you moved to L.A.? Yes. Yeah. He had been like my best friend when I was a kid and sort of in my mind, my mom was the problem. And I was like, he's you know, he was like the cool dad and the funny dad. And and now in retrospect, I know it's not that uncommon for the mom to be, you know, sort of vilified. So I did that. And then. In my it was like a slow burn, you know, of like different sort of unsettling events until the estrangement, it wasn't one thing. And that sort of fucked with me as time went on of like, you know, frustration. Kind of asking what happened and not being able to say a certain thing clearly made me feel like shame around, you know, being too sensitive or like, was it justified or whatever? And yeah, that was about five years. And then we happened to start to kind of heal things. And soon after that, he was given one to five years. He got sick, ended up being two months. And then I was his caregiver for those two months. So it was a dramatic, it was a dramatic relationship, but very like transformational and very valued. It's incredible. You started to heal that relationship before you before that sickness kicked in. That's kind of insane. It is insane. It felt very fateful in that he. He was the day he had waited till after the Emmys, we had unexpectedly been nominated for an Emmy. And he was like, didn't tell me. And I was driving to the writers room and he's, you know, on the phone and told me there was like a spot on his lung. And he had had cancer several times in my life. So, but it was very slow moving. And, and then I went that weekend to see him in Florida where I hadn't been in a long time. And he ended up going to the ICU that night. And he made some joke of like, that actually, wasn't a joke. That was real was like, if you weren't here, the only reason I woke you up to call 9-1-1 is because I didn't want to ruin your pool vacation and find, you know, you find me dead or whatever. So there was like that continuous feeling over and over of, you know, if we weren't there that night, like it could have been, you know, I hadn't seen my dad in a very long time, you know, and then he would have been gone. You were shooting season two and that all was happening? Yeah, we were just about to, we were at the very end of the Penn 15 writers room. Was it therapeutic? Like you're playing a 13 year old version of yourself playing and reliving your relationship with your dad and kind of seeing it in a way you probably couldn't at that time? Yeah, it felt like quite psychotic because I'd be with my dad and in this very like intimate, obviously strange moment, and then flying back and with my TV dad, who I had been psychotic about being like the same corduroys, the same Sebring convertible, and we're doing this scene. To the best of my memory, you know, word for word of like what happened when he moved out of our family house, you know, after splitting the house for two years into his own apartment and he had gotten this like black Sebring convertible and my mom still had like a shitty Toyota Corolla and he was sort of like hoarding the money a little bit, I think, in retrospect. And so like we're going through these scenes. It was very hard. Like I, I, I joke that it's like the most expensive therapy though, that you could do to your point, of like, you know, I feel like it's a version of, of, of like in my twenties, my therapist being, yeah, exactly. Being like, imagine yourself as a little girl and you're giving yourself a hug as an adult. You bring this whole set in. Yeah, exactly. It's almost doing like a Nathan Fielder where like you're building this world around it to like replay. Totally. Your trauma. It was very strange. And then the strangest being like, after he passed away and having to like go do these scenes with my TV dad was very strange. Was it like a ghost feeling or just more like really fucking weird? Well, it was like a ghost. Like it was like, it was just, you know, it was just, it was strange after all of these years of just being so hardcore about the memories being exact and then kind of suffering within that, to be honest at first, you know, and editing those scenes then while, you know, I was grieving and being bittersweet of both being able to like, be with him. And I remember playing my dad and I love him so much. And he didn't know everything going on with my father. And we were doing a scene and like in the Sebring convertible. And I just burst out crying in the middle of the scene. And he was confused and I stopped and I was like, my dad, you know, just passed and he just gave me a really long hug. And, you know, it was, it was otherworldly like the whole, you know, the whole Pen15 was just otherworldly. Yeah. It was a strange. The timing, the timing of that seems special too, to be able to have that healing process before he was gone, but as he was leaving. Yeah. But it's really funny. We started that with me going, it's a funny book, but it, but it, yeah, I mean, it doesn't have to be, but I do think it is. What was the thought in your head where it's like, I, I want to write this book. What was the intent behind that primarily? I think Pen15 had assured me that my point of view as serious as it can sound sometimes is funny in a way that I think is funny. Cause it's been a lot of my life of feeling like I'm the only one laughing in the theater at the wrong time. So it was kind of a surprise to feel otherwise. And there were a lot of people, you know, in a way that I didn't expect to be like, oh, that happened to me too. That happened to me too. And I have found a lot of, you know, healing and reassurance in other people's memoirs. And especially when they're funny, especially when they're tragic and funny together, something about that is a relief. I mean, tragedy is very funny. I think so. There's an inherent humor in that. Absolutely. Yeah. Something that's obviously you talk about in the book, but this, the idea of splitting the households. Yeah. Can we talk about that a little bit and what that was like? Cause I, my parents are the most stable kind of like most boring parents you could imagine. Can you talk me and Rob through, um, what it was like to have that split kind of where both your parents kind of like in the same house, but living sort of separate lives? Yeah. Try. It had been like very loud for most of my life. Their fights were usually at night and my dad would leave and my mom would cry and I'd comfort her. And it was like very dramatic. And then, well, yeah, when I was about 13 or 14, they sat me down and told me they were getting a divorce. And I remember my mom doing most of the talking and me going like, oh, but are you getting separated first? And my dad like going, like nodding his head yes. And then my mom going, no, it's divorce. Oh God. And my dad just stopping and like looking down and like a feeling of like him kind of going away, to be honest. Um, and then it was this weird limbo of being like, I was in a very Catholic town at this point also. So. So there was not a lot of divorce around and I didn't know how it was going to, supposed to go. You know, I wasn't like, is someone leaving? Yeah. Uncharted. Like what's happening? Territory. And so my dad just kind of taking the downstairs bedroom that was for guests before. And in some ways it was a little bit of a relief because he would sleep on the couch so much. So it was like, it's always sort of aware if the sheets were still on the couch, if a friend was coming over and tucking them away. And so there was something more on. Yeah. If I'm being honest, I think that was a relief about what was happening. Yeah. But also if I'm being honest, it was like some nights, like he'd go up the stairs and sleep in mom's room sometimes. So it was, it still was fucking weird for a long time. I mean, the whole thing's weird. You know, in those moments you're probably going, oh, like maybe they can get back together again. Maybe this will settle. Exactly. It also feels very American pretending to be this happy, normal family. And did everyone know they were divorced or? No. No. No. Yeah. That's so weird. You probably thought it was somewhat normal because you didn't know anything else. Yeah. And there was this sort of narrative that started to emerge of like them going to court and both wanting the house and that it would be like one, like that they couldn't afford to move out and have an additional space, but also that it would look bad to the judge. That's one of them was like abandoning me. But I also remember. I also remember. This is so crazy. We never went on vacation. Like we always, we went camping in Vermont. That was in the summer. That was awesome. But that was vacation or we went to my mom's parents condo in Florida and the retirement community and just like swam. And when my dad and mom divorced and they were splitting the house, he decides, he gets the Sebring convertible that we've been talking about. And then he like gets us a cruise to the Palmas. wow and so with your mom too no no okay so i remember it's so sad like it's like half crying half laughing mostly laughing so i remember like being so excited because like yeah and there's a floating casino so my dad you know i didn't even think of that but my that was definitely part of it. And my mom is not the cruise type. She was like doing Reiki and she's like, whatever. And yeah. And so I just remember coming out of my bedroom, like bags packed and saying goodbye. And the poor woman had to be like, have a good time. It's snowing. It's fucking Massachusetts. Like it's cold. And yeah, that's just a snapshot. And that is around the time when they were waiting for the judge to come back with a decision about the house. So my dad and I were doing a lot of talking about who he referred to as the female judge. And what? Human resource manager. It's a problem. And maybe it matters. Guessing it didn't. He didn't get the house. Let's say that it went to the woman as he suspected it would. That's how he addressed her. Yeah, exactly. So that's the snapshot. And then we came back and. Pretty cool vacation. It was great. It was great. I got a horrific sunburn because my mom wasn't there to tell me to put on sunscreen. Apart from the weirdness of that divorce, like what did you like about being like an American kid? Like what did, what jumped out at you back then? Cruise, obviously. I did. The internet was pretty cool. Yeah. I loved AIM. There was a lot of like posing to be a kid that fit in. Like the Pen15 version of me is real, but it was more like the elementary school version. And then by middle school, I'd like figured out how to pretend more. So it wasn't a very peaceful, like I really prefer being an adult to being a kid. Being an adult can be pretty cool. Yeah. I liked going to Unitarian Church when I was little. Yeah. When I was little. What's that? It's like a hippie branch of Christianity. Like lots of clapping? No, no clapping. A lot of candles. No, no, none of that. Very non-denominational. God is spirit. In eighth, seventh grade, eighth grade, I'm going to different congregations of different religions, temple. Oh, sounds great. And learning about different religions. And then coming back at the end of the two years of doing that and saying to the congregation what we believe. And some people were like, I don't believe in God. And I was like, God's a woman. But we're like, yes, God is a woman. That's when you and your dad stopped talking. Yeah, exactly. Because he was like, yeah, he probably is. That's why she fucked me. No, I'm just like curious, like when you write, like, did you like put aside hours to get the job done? Yeah. Or was it just like when it grabbed you, you were just like, right? I was always writing out of terror. Like basically, I was acting. I was acting in between things. So whenever I wasn't in something and I was traveling a lot during those years for whatever reason. And so I would have a couple months where I was like, you know, just sort of trying to catch up. And it would usually be, you know, before my daughter got up, trying to start at 4 or 5 a.m. And that was also the time that I wouldn't look at the home around me. Because usually like once I get distracted with laundry or get distracted by something. And then the days and then, you know, at 3 p.m., I'm like, oh, fuck. Yeah, damn it. Yeah. So I just have to start really early and then not stop. I do love a whiteboard also. David's made fun of my whiteboard. Really? What do you do on the whiteboard? I write lists on that one there. I've got two by my desk on the other room. He's got whiteboards everywhere. Yeah, instead of having a normal conversation, he gets up and these whiteboard markers appear out of nowhere and suddenly all different colors. He loves writing it up there. And it's like, what do you do? What do you do with that thing? You take a photo of it? Yeah, I have photos of whiteboards. Such a weird, such a weird thing to do. Is that because it will be gone if you don't write it? For me, that's what it is. I think so. Yeah. You like to see things out in front of you. Yeah, and I like to cross things off too. Yeah, you like different colors. I feel very accomplished when I get through a full list of a whiteboard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't have whiteboards in New Zealand. We only have blackboards. Whiteboards haven't invented it there yet. And chalk. And chalk. That's all we have. What were you guys like in your middle schools? I was homeschooled until I was 11. Wow. And then I went to school and I found it shocking because suddenly kids everywhere and some of them were mean. And I remember Mrs. Denny, my art teacher, she gave me this advice that's always stuck. And she said, if you did something wrong and you apologized, she'd say, if you were sorry, you would. But I wouldn't have done that in the first place. And it's never- I had a math teacher who said, don't be sorry, be correct. And that stuck with me too. Whoa. Yeah. So that was me homeschooled. And then lots of kids at a private Christian school and Mrs. Denny telling me that. Was that a shock? Oh, it's horrific. Yeah, I'd cry a lot. I was like, I just didn't figure out what I was all about. It was like, it's scary being at school. My other kids are scary. Teachers are scary. I think so. My theory is that everyone in middle school, if this didn't come through, is like, you know, and it feels like an outsider. No matter how in you are, it's just kind of that freaky moment between kid and teen, dumb, when your body is doing very bizarre things and you're trying to, yeah, like pose and mask. Everybody is, I think, which is kind of a relief. I'm trying to figure out whether it's harder for kids today. Like school was crazy. You're just like, everything's like a panic. You're just trying to fit in. Yeah. I assume it's harder today, but maybe it's just hard no matter what age you are when you're like throwing in to like, into all these social situations. I think it's hard no matter what. Seeing what Calvin, I've got a nine-year-old and a four-year-old and yeah, he's going through the same shit. It seems like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's comforting to think that it's not worse. Partly why I love talking about year 2000 and AIM is just like, or X. By the way, I got this image of, I remember my dad saying, I'm going to go to school. I'm going to go to school. I'm going to go saying that a family friend was investing in an online mall. And I pictured like a clueless, like, you know, the movie Clueless, where like a digital mall where you would like walk the halls and like your avatar would like go in a mall. But it's close to X with the streets and the buildings. Yeah, X-Rolls. It is. Yeah. I was in the wrong country. I've always been in the wrong country. When will you let your kid watch Pen15? How old will they be so they can see you in there? How old is your daughter? Five. Five. Okay. I don't know. I mean, the show is now on TikTok. Is it? And so, yes, and mostly I get stopped by teenagers. People just. So wait, is it chopped up into like a million bits? They don't know it's a television show. Oh, that's so funny. And it's like, I didn't know. And then all of a sudden I was like, why are 12-year-olds stopping me and going, you might have to just cut this, but going like, you're the one that calls your mom a cunt. And I'm like, oh, yeah. By the way, I immediately revert to being 12 in real life around a 12-year-old. It's cool 12-year-olds talking. Yeah, like, that is me. I mean, don't say that. It's finally cool. Yeah. Oh, no, see, that's fascinating. It's got the second life by being chopped up into bits and thrown around on that network. It's crazy. Chopped up to bits. It's wild. I know, it is wild. There's, like, Sadcore, which is, like, Maya's, you know, all the sad moments from the whole season. And Anna-core, Anna Sadcore, I think that's what it's called. But the neat thing, and back to the point of, like, is it harder or the same for kids, is Ben reaching that demographic, but sort of, through TikTok, and kids being, like, you know, in real time, like, oh, my God, I can't believe she went through this. I thought I was, I'm going through this right now. I feel like such a psycho. Like, that's. That's neat, but it's also, it is an R-rated show. Yeah, but it's all, it's the same problems, though. And that's cool. And, like, if kids are getting, like, being, like, I'm not alone in this, that's kind of great. The internet scares me for kids. I know that's a crazy thing to say. Yeah, what? But think about the algorithms. But there's also, like, you don't want them to fall behind. Because I have that with my son, too, of, like, you need to be able to use text. That's what everything's going to be. And if we're the one family. If there's a family that's not letting you use Claude, then you're not going to get a job. But won't Claude be doing the tech jobs? I mean, yeah, probably. But even just seeing how our four-year-old can use the iPad and he's doing, like, puzzles and stuff and. Wow. I know. Fucking Claude. Claude. This podcast, we just. He won person of the year today. We just won. I got really excited. We won a Webby award for this podcast. And I was like, yeah, we've won a Webby. And I look at the other winners. Supreme winner. I've given it to fucking Claude, person of the year. That instantly makes, like, all the categories come into some sort of dispute. I agree. Timothy Shamale won for, like, some cash app ad he did. And I'm like, what is this? What is this award system? Wow. Wait, how does that work, being Claude and getting person of the year? They're just trying to get ahead of the game, I guess. on on the pulse on the pulse in some way or something i don't know it's getting weird out there it's getting really weird what are you most excited about in america this year besides your book coming out i mean in general i love traveling carnivals do you really well yeah they scare me a little bit i mean that's deeply american that's why i mentioned i suspect yeah i mean they're a little like you know unnerving because you read about you know growing up reading my mom was a nurse reading newspaper articles about like the twirl-a-thon that like just spun off into the parking lot and scalped a 10-year-old so not that but such a magical moment like yeah those summers when the carnival would come and there'd be the lights and the fried dough and the kids all hanging out and winning the stuffed animals and it was an equalizer so that was like that you'd do that when you were a kid yeah i mean i think that's a really good thing to do yeah i think that's a really good thing to do yeah i think that's a really good thing to do yeah i think that's a really good thing to think that's a really good thing to do yeah i think that's a really good thing to do yeah and you still go now no but i want to this year like i passed one on the drive and i saw one and i was like i need to do this but i have an inkling that it's not gonna feel good last year i took my i took calvin to the one in los feliz and it was terrible what made it terrible i want to speak a couple times i went to that a couple of days ago yeah we went to that one church parking lot right yeah catholic school raising money i think and it was three days so i went on the friday with a friend who has kids i went back on the sunday just me come on i loved it come on really they had really good hot dogs calvin kept doing the swirly one he did it like four times and then the last time he got off he had eaten like funnel cake or hot dogs and then just goes over like dizzy to the garbage and puked all over you know the rides are nasty a little mini roller coaster that looks like it's definitely about to all come undone yeah the american car i'm a fan too well you gotta go down to the orange county like fairgrounds okay that's i think one that'll live up to the nostalgia of it i don't the church parking lot's not going to do it no when is it sort of related to like the traveling circus because i feel like that was a big thing in america as well where you go and see like a hippo on a trampoline we didn't i didn't much which are bad obviously bad we don't like them but i feel that was like a big thing as well but maybe yeah barnum and bailey because my parents were kind of hippies i was always like kind of out of my mind and i was like i'm gonna go to of the um out of the loop shall we say i didn't i you know we were listening to like rock mon and off but they were like testing me of like what the smashing pumpkins were and i was like that's something you do on halloween you know so sad that's just unique so i really thank you so i mean yeah i can't say i was a girl scout i really like girl scout cookies that's cool i look forward to that i just bought way too many oh really what flavor are you i'd thin mints and mints is mine and then the shortbread ones are second wow that's very like um mature shortbread cookies don't you yeah i mean we got some in the freezer doing yeah i bought a few now and they're pretty delicious but it's so elaborate like how some of the kids sell them and like their parents are out there as well like there's an art to it obviously did you have indian princesses in new england no sounds not good yeah that's a problem what yeah i did uh indian guides instead of boy scouts really that was a thing there's a uh tim allen and jonathan taylor thomas movie about it there is oh really yes that was a thing it's definitely i didn't know it was real no that's real i was in the comanche tribe oh god and we had camp outs and really there was a chief that was a thing in a headdress was there any acknowledgement of the you know a different culture influencing you were like learning about native americans but not in the yeah not in a great i was also like eight but in you do it was like father-son bonding and you do little outings and i would always there'd be contests to make the patches for it that you'd like draw and i would always win those that's cute you'd add them to your vest what do girl guides do i only know them from the biscuits you earn i haven't thought about the details of this in so long you earn badges by completing tasks usually in service of others all right or yeah actually yeah how to tie a knot that's a good one like a boat knot or something yeah not yeah or and so you're saying in service of others you'd go and do nice things for other people yeah like or like a music one or your troop leader would sort of like organize outings to then get a certain badge okay was it like indian guys is it like i feel like boy scouts are like camping going camping in the woods is that what girl scouts do as well yeah we did that okay we did that we did there was like a lot of singing at elderly homes really oh yeah and my mom worked at elderly home in elderly home so i like grew up a lot being around harold and whoever and i'd be like they're my best friend then she'd be like they're gone oh god that's so fucking intense i know but it was also awesome i mean elderly homes are curious about new zealand in the states are quite problematic i would say in the states in general hard to find ones that you know where people where aging isn't and and where you shoved aside yeah you're just shoved aside is that the same oh absolutely yeah yeah it's like i think it's maybe a bit worse in america like in a bit more monetized but certainly yeah the same culture in new zealand of old people we don't want to deal with you off you don't want to look at your reminder of our mortality yeah i mean they'd be so lucky to have you this like little kid running around smiling and laughing and they had amazing people and they had amazing people and they had amazing stories the craziest stories that you're like those stories just go away when you leave for the most part i mean now i guess with our generation not because we're leaving thousands of hours documentation of everything today i ate some ham tomorrow i'm gonna eat it again it won't be usable format in 30 years though yeah it'll load us yeah all your sidekick photos and wait i've been wondering this what do you mean it's we're not gonna be able to access vhs no no great i've been really stressed yeah like i i think of like all my shit that i put on facebook like when facebook dies that'll all be gone i try i have so many photos that i really like on my facebook because i uploaded a lot there back in the day i tried to do that thing where you download all your data and you just have it sitting there but it's and then i was going to delete my facebook okay but the download is so hectic and chaotic it's not like you can just download your photo album which they do on purpose i'm sure it's horrific mark but to your point it's like so much of my shoot is on facebook like once facebook dies all that history is going to be gone i've got containers of dvds that i don't have a dvd player anymore i've got like burn dvds with data from computers that i've got zip disks i don't have a cd rom drive no i can access any of that stuff anymore so our point is you don't need to worry about this it's gonna go away like trash in a dump that's what i picture when i think of all of the content wait so that's not an that's i'm so naive like the idea is that i'm not going to be able to access any of that stuff anymore yeah that that isn't gonna so that's not going to be a thing you think of course it will no i don't understand i think like the the lv people that you saw in that old folks home yeah that don't have any stories that have been left around it's essentially going to be the same for us because all that stuff we're leaving won't be readable or we'll be lost the photos will be low res because it's not like 2000k yeah when you're looking at like old so you look really worried photos now like that's not going to be in the top of the list i'm not going to be able to read all that stuff type of photos yeah i'm half worried and i'm half deeply reassured yeah it's okay like we want some of that stuff to go you know we don't want all that shit to be around get rid of it i'm trying to promote my book obviously and i've been trying that'll be gone thank god because it's humiliating also like i've been trying to like influence because i'm like talking i've never talked to the camera in my life unless i'm like you know character or something i'm like this is my book this is and i feel like such a fraud and i also feel guilty because i just have this feeling of adding to this content overload where i'm like oh this is like this is like plastic and it's never gonna come decompose but i'm wrong it is but look we want your stuff yeah there'll be so much stuff no we do there's a reason we got you know rome and i are both massive fans we want the book we want you talking about the book on tiktok okay we want the kids chopping up pen 15 and putting it on tiktok so more people can find it okay they're fucking here for it all okay you know thanks will you quickly tell we did a trading card episode um a while ago you've got a good trading card story i actually do okay so my brother 11 years older was really into sports he wasn't around a lot he lived at his dad's he to me was the he gave me a rookie larry bird card as i swallow and i felt i remember feeling really special such a good question so most people have these stories about trading cards a lot of people do i do i have a very it's such an american i have one they'll tell after okay i'm so excited um and i was in a multi-age class in fourth in first grade it was first second and third graders and i was in a multi-age class and i was in a multi-age class and i brought in i mean i probably had like four cards but i i got the trapper keeper and the laminated space for cards i think jamie gave him to me my brother and some little asshole asked me if I wanted to trade the one Larry Bird rookie card for four X-Men cards and I was like absolutely so I did cool yeah and they were colorful and they were like this oh god and you know Larry Bird was just like this and they were they had powers and it drew me right in that kid knew what he was doing and at dinner I remember I felt panicked afterwards and I felt wrong something felt wrong I knew and I just was 90s like Larry Bird was not a rookie at the time it was known that he's yeah you're right but it was a rookie Larry Bird card yeah which makes it even more valuable but I've known my brother like kind of to a would one say problematic I mean maybe that's just me projecting like he never gets upset about anything and he I remember how disappointed in me he was and I tried to go to the third grader and like call him out and say that it was not a fair trade and he did not budge he didn't never give it back and I think about it probably once every four months that sucks it's okay we should find that kid yeah kill him and get your card back or just find the card I had a similar story I've the card we my dad bought this like Michael Jordan box set from the card shop when it was in the 90s and I remember it being a really big deal he was buying it as like an investment for us and wouldn't let us open it how much was it I think it was only like 40 dollars but it seemed like a lot at that time it looked cool I thought we lost it and I thought about it often of like where's that box of Michael Jordan cards and then we did our trading card episode and I brought it up and I asked my dad and he was like oh I still have it in a safety deposit box they're keeping still got it look it up it's only worth like two hundred dollars still it's gone up a little bit it's gone up a little bit you're imagining like fifteen thousand dollars or something yeah if it was would you sell it what would you do if he had if you had discovered yeah this is this is fifteen thousand easy is the family keeping it are they selling it well I asked if I could have it and he said no it's still an investment yeah it might go up more yeah he said I could give him two hundred fifty dollars for it what about beanie babies we had beanie babies do you still have them any did you know about beanie babies I watched the documentary on Netflix I think yeah I didn't you might have had them in New Zealand I was unaware of them my sister collected them she had a huge bin under her her and my mom they go to Jan's gifts a little store it's so funny in the little strip mall and they would buy all the new beanie babies it's interesting because there is like in the trading cards and the beanie babies there is this like entrepreneurial thing that it's like getting in touch with with kids it's an investment what is that now I mean I want to know what that kid that has that larry card if he like kept focusing on that and is now like worth millions you know just from that brain that he had been on for so long I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know back then stop I might have just like gone and gone and gone oh not from the card you just mean in general not just in general that attitude I mean I'd love to know where he where he is I moved so I moved soon after from Vermont I want to find this kid would you know would he be in like old high school yearbooks and stuff you think he listens to the show we could I reckon we could find him that'd be a cool episode if this spins off and we find that kid and get that card back I need to like ask my family friend that grew up in Montpelier Vermont and stayed there through Sometimes I'll ask him, like, where's this person now? Can you? Yeah, I'll ask him. Can you get that info? Yeah. Wow. I'm into this. In my mind, he was so tall and smart, and I was so little and dumb. I mean, you were. Yeah, I was. Four X-Men cards, and you gave up that card? Idiot. I know. Can you believe I still think about it? I'm just crying. I'm not crying. I can believe it, yeah. You can? Well, how much do we think it's worth? Not as much now, because I don't think trading cards are worth that much anymore. It's more like a symbolic, spiritual. Yeah. Weirdly, Larry Bird came to New Zealand when I was a kid and played, like, a charity basketball game. Oh, wow. Larry Bird was the first, like, NBA player that I ever saw in the flesh. First flighted bird? In New Zealand. The first flighted bird? First flighted bird I saw. Larry. Did you meet him? No, but I saw him. Hell yeah. He was, like, over in the distance. But he seemed cool. Very white, Larry Bird, wasn't he? And small. Was he small? No, I don't think he was. I think he was probably over six foot. Okay. Big. Thank you for coming in. Thank you for having me. You're so wonderful. You have so many wonderful things. Oh, thank you. So, Anna's book is called The Sane One, Anna Conkle. The Sane One at your local bookstore, your local online book spot. It's a great read. She's awesome. And I love that show so much. I was trippy having her there because I'm like, oh, my God, I was obsessed with your show. And she's a good writer. She's such a good writer. And allegedly listens to Flight of the Spirit. Allegedly. Which was a thrill. Didn't test her on it. When people say they listen to your podcast, you're going to be like, so, what's your favorite episode? See what they say. See if they freeze up. Yeah. I'll ask that sometimes. I mean, it's cruel to do it. It's cruel. It's not as a test, though, as just like a game. Well, if it's someone that I feel like is serious about it, that has like no reason to say it. Just because depending on what you listen to says a lot about you. Completely. And I think she does listen, which is nice. She better. She better have not been lying to me. Check the Patreon. Yeah, she's amazing. I now have to go and find the kid that took her favorite card. That's my mission I'm currently on. I'll probably fail miserably, but I'm going to have a bit of a poke around. We got his full name from. Her. So in town. I mean, if you're if he's listening to this flightlessbirdchat at gmail.com, email us and we will instantly solve the mystery. We'd love to have you on the show. Maybe we can trade the cards back again. Something like that. And if you if you are listening and you don't reach out, we will find you. We will find you and I will turn up at your front door and your place of work. I feel like we covered so many bits of American culture in that. Yes. Kind of wild. Kind of bounce over. Which was. I mean, perfect embodiment of what N-15 was. Completely. I'd entirely forgotten that I'd seen Larry Bird on a basketball court until I started talking about basketball. I do have to make a correction. Oh, me or you? It's going to be in the comments as they always are whenever there's a slip up. The movie with Jonathan Taylor Thomas about Indian guides is called Man of the House. Okay. And it's with Chevy Chase, not Tim Allen. Hmm. They seem similar characters, just in that they're kind of been comedians, been around for a while. Both seem like not great humans as well. I could see how you kind of get them confused a little bit. Well, I think Tim Allen also did another movie relating to. He's in a movie where he's in a raft of some kind. I think I feel like he was in some sort of raft film. I also remember going to watch his Christmas movie at the movies in New Zealand when I was a kid. Christmas Vacation? No, it was he played Santa. I think it was maybe called the Santa Claus. That was big at the time. It's a pun too. The Santa Claus. What? What? How so? It's a clause. Oh, a clause in the, in like a contract. I actually, that went over my head as a kid when that movie came out. And it wasn't until, uh, Calvin watched it where I was like, oh, that's, oh, that's the joke. They were making. Knowing you, that must've helped so good. Once you clock a pun. Uh, or terrible that I had like this movie was in my existence for so long and I didn't realize what they were doing. Uh, if you haven't watched Pen15, it's on Hulu. It's worth watching. Just the best show in the world. I love it so much. Another, um, correction to make from last week. Uh oh. Squirt. Ah. This had taken over most of the feedback from the episode. Explain what the hell happened. I was talking about flavoring bourbon in supper clubs in Wisconsin and we got talked at. We're talking about sweet flavors that you can put into your cocktail and, uh, more bitter flavors and squirt came up. Yeah. You brought up squirt. Um, and I, I think I said it was pretty much just like Sprite and seven up lemon lime, which I'm not a soda drinker and I was wrong. Were you wrong? Were you wrong about something? I was wrong about something. To be fair, the squirt bottle looks like it should be lemon and live flavored. It's green and yellow. You defending yourself? Not defending. I'm explaining where my mix up. I don't, I don't drink. I didn't drink squirt. So I didn't realize it does very clearly say grape, grapefruit flavor. Okay. On the bottle. Rob, I just want to say I forgive you for your error. Thank you. You're forgiven. And I've actually got a present to get like a piece off. to give you for your horrific error. It's not Squirt. - It's not Squirt related. off ebay because i know when i was in wisconsin i went into a second hand store and i showed you some items that you got really intrigued by and i do love some real monster stuff and i couldn't get it for you because i still wasn't selling it so i went on ebay and bought you a real monsters toy i'd also like to note that that has the original price on there yeah is that what it which i just want to say it did cost more than three nine it cost less less than 299 399 uh but uh it is now a collector's item and you can now sit that perhaps on your shelf in the lounge yeah yeah natalie will love that staring down i will say this is a meaningful character so the i guess how you say it i think so that's how i've always thought about when i was in elementary school the theme of today when i was in elementary school i went to an art class and drew both the guy with the eyeballs that'd be so fun to draw and like it ended up on the wall of the elementary school and that was kind of when i fell in love with uh art and drawing was you know oh there's these cartoon characters that i can draw yeah and they look really cool when i draw them yeah oh rob so fitting oh thank you my pleasure a little bit of feedback coming in lindsey hi david and hi rob long time listener here i found myself outraged about eberly's story yes so i get so lost in where this is at because it's moved so quickly um but at the moment so eberly was in california where you went to visit her in the ice attention facility she was there she was due to meet her lawyer about a week ago now uh and the day she was due to meet her lawyer they put her on a plane and flew her out she briefly ended up in the in texas at one of the basically at the ice facility that has the highest number of deaths of all the ice facilities so far and also the highest number of sexual assaults so her family was super alarmed when she popped up there they were even more alarmed when she suddenly dropped off the ice database entirely and just wasn't present anywhere turns out she was being flown from texas to arizona which is where she is now that route makes sense california to texas to arizona just bouncing around as well but it's very uh so she's in uh they know where she is now which is great she has a lawyer who is basically looking to uh get her original weed charge chucked out because she had terrible legal advice over a decade ago when that happened that lawyer's now been disbarred he was like a terrible lawyer and hopefully after that's happened ice will have no excuse to hold her and again this is this is something that she was charged with and has dealt with but it's what ice is using to keep her in the system have they actually said that at this point no no they haven't officially charged her with anything they're just going off what they little things ice ice has indicated that seems insane that she is being flown around to different detention centers without even being told what she's being detained for it's bonkers uh like it is it is truly bonkers and it's so complicated because we've had one example already of her lawyer not being able to meet with her and when i say meet meet it's literally is like a video call from but she has to be in front of a tablet or a phone to do that so they've moved her once already this uh hearing to have this charge from 10 years ago um removed that's going to happen in a wisconsin court which is where she's from but again to have that hearing the judge is going to want to talk to evely and ice and the local government in wisconsin they're not talking clearly ice is off doing its own thing so even the idea that she might be able to get that hearing and appear in court in wisconsin isn't a given yeah so everything is so up in the air and the last thing her lawyer has said is basically she could be in there for about at least a year so look she has a good lawyer her family is sticking by her side her gofundme is going really well so thanks to any lessons have thrown into that something new zealand is it's starting to pick up its coverage of it new zealand media has gotten into it really intently now they're pushing our foreign minister winston peters to actually do something uh it sounds like things are slowly happening like the new zealand government is slowly actually communicating for the first time with ice yeah which again isn't a lot but it's something yeah and so if there are any major updates we will have them um on the show and i've been doing kind of like updates during the week over on webworm where i'm just following stuff as closely as i can just to trace exactly what's going on but you know it's it's rough she's been taken and she's now sort of trapped in the system that she's waiting for the legal side on the outside to kind of catch up with it somehow and sync up so that she can eventually get out well trapped in a system that seems to be intentionally incompetent absolutely so that's the latest on everly um so look lindsey wrote in um and just said despite stories like this being told over and over again in the news and social media for some reason this one has me even more furious maybe it's so i have clarity around why she's being held or maybe the full realization that there's something happening here that allows ice agents to work beyond the realms of the law dallas wrote in my fried cheese of a heart is so happy with all these wisconsin episodes friday fish fry was a weekly staple for my family growing up my favorite side dish was potato pancakes with apple sauce and rye bread i don't really know what to do with that sentence but i'm sure it's tasty my brother and i would sit at the bar waiting for our table and order virgin grasshoppers much to my dad's demise i don't demise is the right word but we'll go with it in wisconsin it wasn't shocking to see kids belly up to the bar with their parents often trying to convince our dad to get us the alcoholic version i don't know if it's still legal but in the 90s parents could buy their kids alcohol at a bar that seems fucking crazy that does that that can't be legal that doesn't seem right that doesn't seem right i think you had a i think your parents told you some things dallas that were not legit we started too young i know long i live in wisconsin but the thing i miss the most is the traditional friday fish fry sadly i haven't found an equivalent here in south carolina i love the podcast and i think you and rob are the perfect unlikely duo i don't think we're that unlikely apart from the difference in our love of sport yeah leslie says i'm born and raised wisconsinite i think a telltale sign of a supper club for my family is having a soup or salad option with dinner i hadn't even looked into salads while i was there i was too busy eating cheese jolene said i just wanted to thank you for such positive complimentary shows on wisconsin wisconsinites are really happy with these episodes they feel seen wisconsinites are also very nice people so oh that's also why they're just nice yeah god there were so many emails from nice people we often feel as though people don't even know where wisconsin is on the map and if we mentioned it's usually in a way that's poking fun i thought both episodes were great and i hope you can come back to visit in a warmer season speaking of supper clubs um my friend eileen sent me there is apparently turf supper club in san diego we have one within a semi-sensible driving distance from us apparently we end up in san diego we could go and supper club it up i could compare turf supper club which is a historic san diego steakhouse in the golden hill neighborhood known for its unique grill your own steakhouse concept where patrons cook their own meat on a central grill in a classic old school lounge atmosphere with red lighting jukebox music and strong cocktails okay established in the 1950s it's a fun casual and campy experience with a focus on quality meats classic drinks and a lively no frills vibe this sounds supper clubby i don't know about the fry your own steak yeah that's i mean i like the idea of it it sounds more steakhousey it's called it's called turf supper club so okay well as an expert now on supper clubs i'd be willing to go and assess the supper clubness of it all that image looks supper clubby there are some out of wisconsin so this is possible finally and this is a criticism and we do believe or not get criticisms some of them valid some of them not i think this is really valid and it's something i've been thinking about and i like this guy a lot so adam wrote in hello bravid that's why i like him because he opened with them hello bravid and rob i've really enjoyed your podcast since its origin the concept is brilliant uh but as a 54 year old black man i have to say you are really limiting yourselves let me say that i'm not here to accuse you of any racism but the amount of exploring america you've done that only leads to anything connected to suburban white america is a little disheartening there's so much more out there i think would be really interesting to you and your listeners specifically a while back you mentioned marching bands this made me wish you would explore hbcu marching bands battle of the bands competitions divine nine black greek life step shows and so much more i'm interested in hearing your thoughts on more than just black culture in america maybe compare chinese food in america versus actual food from china or explore different experiences of assimilation into america like the fusion of french and black slave culture in Louisiana. The point is, if I can listen to two episodes on emo music, I think your other listeners could stand to be exposed to more of American culture from other perspectives. I debated whether to send this note and then decided to share my thoughts when you released the Supper Club episode. One of the whitest things around. Unfortunately, I truly enjoyed it and again thought, leave them alone and let them do what they do. But here it is, my personal and fully unsolicited opinion. Whether you receive or react to this input or not, I will continue to be an avid fan and listener and thank you for both what you do. Adam Johnson, an old black dude. That was an amazing way to sign off. Very fair and very valid. Yeah, super fair. I've got so many thoughts on that, but mainly it's something that I have taken on board and I think both of us agree. These would be great things to dive into. Speaking for myself, I think I have that thing of like, I'm trying to grasp American culture from my very white perspective without stepping on toes. And I feel when I dive into other cultures, it's like a minefield for me and I just don't want to fuck it up, basically. But I think it's a really good note. And I also think it's a little bit, this sounds like an excuse, but a little bit about where I end up as well, which is as a white person, I just end up in white places. And that's something that I definitely need to. think about. And I think it's really fucking good feedback. So thank you, Adam. If you have feedback, episode ideas or criticisms, praise, whatever you want, [email protected]. We have a new episode on Patreon coming out on Thursday, where Rob and I discuss our favorite gigs that we have recently been to. Is there a reason we have some Waymo pins on the desk? Oh, that was my other present to you. So at the Webby's, I mean the Webby's, and we've talked about this over on Patreon, but the Webby's were a combination of really amazing creators doing really cool things and corporate land. So suddenly there's someone on stage selling us AI from Adobe and saying AI is amazing. Google is winning an award. Oh, thanks Google. This horrific search engine that's becoming worse and worse. And at one point, Waymo won an award. Yeah. And they gave us Waymo pins. Nice. And I am gifting you three Waymo pins. It's got the Waymo logo. The future is now. And I just thought Rob would really love to clip some of those on his top. Yeah, I would love. Thank you, David, for this very generous gift. This was before or after I sent you that article about a bunch of Waymos being recalled in the US. I believe it was because there was flooding. Mm-hmm. And one drove into the floodwaters. Right. I like there was a detail in that story that was like, the Waymo slowed down, but it did just drive in to the waters. I got those pins before that news story. That news story made me like Waymos a lot less. I'm yet to go in one. You're still not, huh? I like the idea that if you have a human driver and they're doing something you don't like, you can yell or direct your attention to them. Robot car being driven by AI or possibly drivers in other countries that are like controlling it. Yeah, yeah. Harder to communicate with. I did have my first robot delivery on Postmates. Tell me about it because I've never had this. I know they exist. It was fine. The thing I found interesting about it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have to tip a robot driver. Yes, they refund you your tip that you put. Because I'm not picking. You're not picking a robot to deliver it. To be clear, you're not picking a robot. But it also has to be with, it's got to be close enough to your place that you're ordering from, which most of the time I'm just going to go pick up my food. So you've got to understand, if people listen to this in New Zealand, they may have no clue what you're talking about. So just tell me what this looks like. Just a mystery? Yeah. So it's just a little box on wheels. It's got cute eyes on the front. It looks cute. They name all of them. Yeah. And I live on top of a hill. Top of a hill. So I think they weren't really sending them in our neighborhood, but they've changed that. Okay. So your Uber Eats or whatever says, "Driver's arrived." You go out your front door. What do you see? Yeah. Instead of it coming to your door like a Postmates will normally, there's a little robot sitting there. Because you have stairs. It can't get up the stairs. Correct. So it's sitting at the bottom of your stairs, looking up at you. Sitting on the sidewalk. On the sidewalk? Yeah. With its little eyes blinking. Oh. Yes. It's parked. You have your phone out, which unlocks it, opens it up. I had some Topo Chico's in there that were just scattered around. Yeah. They've been on a journey. Yep. They did not stay upright. Got my tacos out and that was it. And you closed the lid. It closed itself. So automatic. Yeah. That's cool. And then it just trundles off into the night. It just stayed there for a little bit. Rob, I. Look, I. Yeah. Look, I don't like a lot of things to do with this whole AI system. I find them. And they're very cute. They designed them so that you're not gonna kick them. So you're tricked by the eyes that they put. I'm tricked by the eyes completely. I think of that little person. And I was walking home, maybe about 9:00 PM, busy street. There was a little Waymo that was keeping pace with me. And I turned to go over a pedestrian crossing. It sat there while cars were just blasting up and down the street. The Waymo did? The Waymo. The delivery. The Waymo. Sorry, not the Waymo. A little delivery, food delivery vehicle we're talking about. Little guy. And I watched it for a while and I realized that none of the cars were slowing and stopping. There was no gaps in the traffic. And so this little, poor little thing sat there for about five minutes. I was just watching it. And then I legitimately felt a motion towards it. I'm like, I need to help you cross. And so I went and crossed the crosswalk. You walked him across the street? I walked him across. And I was like, will he follow me? But yeah, I walked in front by about a meter. Traffic stopped. The little guy walked over with me. It felt really special. And he went on his way to deliver his little meal, probably to your fucking house. Thank me for that arriving. I don't think it was. And I walked home and I felt I had done a good deed for this little guy on wheels. And that's my story. They're really, they're really personable and all you need to do to fool an idiot like me is put a couple of eyes on it and I'm fully endeared to the whole thing. Uh, the one thing that has helped me, um, by Maru, there is like part of the sidewalk that comes up and they get stuck there all the time and they're just sitting there. Uh, cause they can't get, they can't get by it. Little guy, he doesn't do anything. Do you help him across? Yeah. No. What I would do now, I'd pick them up. I'd cradle them. I don't think you're supposed to. I'd tamed the other side of the tree. I'd put them down. It says they're like being surveillanced and um, I don't think you're supposed to touch them, David. Okay. Don't touch a Waymo. Not a Waymo. What do you call them? What are they? I don't even know. Delivery pods. Little delivery fucking pods. All right. Playlist, patreon.com/playlistbird. Um, and just a reminder, um, cause I always forget to talk about this. We shoot video for this and we have video of this show on Spotify. So if you want to see what we're talking about and what we look like. And see Anna, she's a great person. She's a great person. Uh, we have video on Spotify. It's all integrated in there. So if you want to watch it, I suggest you have a little peek. Yeah. Fewer ads on Spotify too. So you want to see what we look like? Click over there, turn on the video. Otherwise we're on all other platforms. Thank you.