Angelo Flaccavento on Taste, Doubt, and the Beauty of Uncertainty

You're listening to What's Contemporary Now, a show about culture and the people places and things that together make it up. Angela Flack of Ento to me is very much a writer's writer. He animates entire worlds in the mind's eye with nothing more than the written word, creating these tactile layers throughout his highly illustrated style of storytelling. Rather than wander near the edges of banality as some might, him views criticism with a deeper meaning, or at the very least a perspective that leaves you thinking about the subject a little bit differently. With the same curiosity, periodic self-doubt, and constant questioning that shapes his work, he tells us the story of his childhood, how he arrived in a position where his words carry such impact, what has driven that journey, all the while remembering to share what he believes is contemporary now. These is Angela Flack of Ento and we're talking about What's Contemporary Now. Angela, I'm so happy we finally managed to get you on, I've wanted to speak to you for quite some time, this is an absolute honor. It's a habit of ours to start at the beginning with each guest because it's always nice to hear about someone through their own words, especially when it comes to their childhood and those early experiences that might have shaped them. So tell us about the early life of Angela Flack of Ento. I come from the province, let's say, from the Altskirt, Provincia, Ivithalia, Italy, the country of very different identities, every city or every region at its own identity, and if you grow up by the Provincia, you always have this mirage, let's say, of the big city because the Provincia can be so sleepy. So I grew up in Sicily, Ragusa, and I was exposed to fashion right from the start because it's not one but two relatives of mine, both the sister and the brother of my father at the boutiques. It was the late '70s, early '80s, so there was the moment when Italian fashion was booming and actually the little stores in the Provincia were the ones that created the whole phenomenon in Italy. So, especially my aunt, Tina, she was carrying all the big brands. She started with the Walter Albini, who was the seminal designer in the late '70s and she carried on to Versace, Ferre, all those kind of brands. So my father used to drop me to the store because he was running errands nearby and I got hooked to the clothing and also to the magazines that were in the store. It was always kind of a loner child. I have a younger sister but I spent time on my own a lot. I always like drawing, writing a little bit less, a little bit later. Everything creative was, I remember, redressing all my sister's dolls in my own way, very punky or experimental. My aunt, so how intrigued that I was in that, so she was carrying me to the fashion shows in Milano, which for me were like a big revelation because it was something completely out of the war for me. For instance, I was present at that seminal, but such a show with the Supermodel singing George Michael at the end, so you can imagine what kind of impression that made. But I also have a distinct memory of being entrusted right away in something a little bit more lateral, let's say, or a little bit less institutional in terms of aesthetic. In that moment, in Milano, there was a Comdegason store, which, finally enough, is where now is the J.W. Anderson store on Bia Santandrea. And the store was the eighties concept of Comdegason, which was a row, concrete, metal and almost an empty store. And I remember passing by with my aunt, looking at the window that was empty and telling her, "I want to be inside this place, it's so fascinating." And she didn't want me to get in, because it looked a little bit scary as a place, a little bit off-cuter, let's say. And the clothes were really post-apocalyptic, because Comdegason at that moment was all black, holes, as in metric, not very glamorous. But I remember also that I was fascinated by clothing as objects, and also by clothing through the representation that you had in pictures and in magazines. So she had a lot of magazines coming through, because they were like free subscriptions, or maybe brands that were offering something. And I remember once, she got a copy of this experimental magazine called Wistath, which was a magazine that Maria Luisa Friesa and Stefano Tonki were doing in Florence. In the mid-80s, Florence in that moment was like the London of Italy. It was a hub of creativity and the new languages. And flipping through this, I think it was issue number one or something, I read a small article about ID Magazine looking at the small pictures of this super colorful magazine I was told. And a couple of years later, I managed to get the subscription. Can you imagine? It was like the late 80s, Sicily, and getting a subscription to magazine coming from London. I remember I spent one whole morning at the post office to make this international money order. It went through. So the magazine arrived, let's say one month and a half late, and it was the only thing that I read for the one month and a half since the next issue would be dropped in my postbox. So I was reading cover to cover and cover to cover as many times as possible. And it's also how I learned to write my English, because I definitely think that my written English is better than my spoken English, but actually it's what I do mostly, writing in another language. I think those years were really formative because that moment was particularly free. In that moment, experimental magazines or independent magazine were truly independent. So there was barely any kind of advertising for big brands. And so no constraints to use the fashion in a certain way. In fact, I remember that most of the credits in fashion stories were crediting the brands and the stores carrying them because I think that the editorials were made with stylists borrowing clothes from stores, not from press office. And so I have really David Memories of the time that was really for me and in printing. At one point, I also started reading the face, but I've always been theme ID. I think that what Terry Jones and Tricia Jones have done, I considered them to be my good father and a good mother because they had such a beautiful way to deal with image making. And the writing was fantastic. Sometimes it was impossible to read because it was printed in day-gloping over day-glow yellow, maybe. And it was absolutely impossible to get the information. But I remember the editor at the time was Karen Franklin was a fantastic journalist. So there was a lot of information and there was a lot of attention to designers. And then there were these pages straight ups with people photographed around the streets of London. You saw that there were people dressed in the most crazy way in the daily life. And I was so into that that I thought, "Okay, I can do that in Ragnuz, as well, who cares? This is my London." So I remember once, it was, let's say, 89, probably, I was in high school. It was a kind of a hippie moment post the very first AC The House wave. So I cut daisies into plastic and glued them on my gingerket and went to school like that. And it was like a huge scandal. Like the teacher's called my mom. The teacher's. I thought you were going to say other kids might have picked on you or something, but the teacher's why? I think it is that I was always very good at school. I always got top grades, so for them, a guy with top grades must be someone very quiet in self-expression. They found it very strange. It wasn't done in a bad way, but they call it anyway. So I continued going to shows with my aunt all along high school. And then I decided to study a literature at university. I kept drawing all the time and I had the strong will to become a designer, but also I felt there was something not complete in that, because the volunteer was satisfied with the drawing, not with the idea of making this real. So I thought, "Okay, I'm going to have a good schooling. I went to a good university and majored in art history." In my household, having top level schooling, it's always been considered the most important value. So I thank my parents for that. My doctoral dissertation was about Arthur Tudier, Roberto Capucci, so I mean, fashion kept being inside but in a different way. And I am grateful that at the turning point, so the passage from high school to university, I had this clarity in mind and went for a more academic path. I read that you wanted to be a fashion designer and I was curious at what point that kind of goal changed and it ended up down the path of writing, because you were such an incredible writer. It seems like something that you would have dreamed of doing since you were very old. No, I didn't. Actually, I've never dreamt to be a writer. I was always very good at writing, but you know, I don't have a diary, I don't have any short stories in my drawer or anything. I write, but only on commission. This is also why I've never, up until now, written a book because I ever, ever someone telling me, this is the book, this is the deadline you write it, otherwise, I don't. And I was afraid to. Basically, what happened is that in my final year at grammar school, you know, sometimes in those moments when you become a young adult, you will start questioning your own passions. And I was really the top of the class, mostly in the humanistic disciplines or writings, philosophy. And my first high school teacher, because I think I have many persons that have marked the important turning points in my life, have been women of a certain kind, but kind of strict, not maternal, but very direct in their opinion. She told me, you know, you're very good with writing and with this kind of thing, you should better pursue this kind of schooling and then maybe get back to what you want later. And I listened to her, because my mom left me completely free to choose whatever I wanted to do, because she knew it was a responsible kid, so there was no way for me to get lost. So I felt okay, and I was happy in the end that I chose this path. To university, I stopped drawing almost completely, but the passion for fashion was still there, always, burning. So when I graduated in '97, there was still a compulsory military service in Italy. We shouldn't do. I was in Italy and we say, "Oh, a bit of a chance, such, so you refuse to do that, but you have to do something alternative." I was lucky enough that I was the only guy that, in that moment, was an art historic graduate, so I worked in a museum. They were making a catalog of ancient textiles. So I was who, once again, to that kind of activity. And when that was over, it was one year of compulsory military service, and then they made me a contract for another year. But it was not my thing to be a public employee, so I just stopped. I went to Paris, met with Rebecca Void, who at the time was the editor-in-chief of Dutch magazine. And I just told her, "I want to write about fashion, and I want to write in this magazine." She later told me that she was so surprised that someone could just bang on the door and best for her job. She told me, "Okay, do it." Can you write in English? Of course, I can write in English. I've never written in English before that. Of course, all my reading happened through English-language magazine, but it wasn't really the first time for me. That's the thing with your writing that's, to me, such a writer's type of writing in that it's not just informational. There's always such a unique point of view and a distinct way of expressing that point of view. But obviously, you've also talked about the time it takes to find one's own voice, whether or not that's in the context of a designer at a new house or your own experience. But at what point did you feel like you found that voice that you now have today? A very intelligent question, but also a very difficult one, because to be completely honest, I know from the response of people that I have my tone of voice, and I know when I write what I write, so for me, what I say and the way I say, for me style is just as important as the information or the opinion you're giving. But I also, hopefully, have the feeling that this tone of voice is endlessly evolving. My aim is not to have the feeling, oh, I got it, I'm always a little bit unsatisfied about myself so that I can push myself a little bit more. But to answer your question, I started my write-ups in the business of fashion around 2014. Let's say, around 2018, my aim is always to be very direct. Not too long, because I hate when a writer brings you around, I just want to go straight to the focus, also because the right app in particular that I have been assigned is very interesting, because I come after daily articles from other writers. So I don't have to deal with the trivia of giving information about the collection, because at that point, of course, my leadership is mostly professional people, so they don't want me to know details about the staging or other things unless they are integral to my critical reading of the show, so I can be very sharp and very to the point. As a writer, I also always like the idea of webbing a very straight setup number of words and a space that you can occupy. For me, the worst fear is do as you please. That thing for me is the worst, because I can do a sonnet or a poem or a book. You never know, I always like to have a frame in which to move, because the frame allows me to be free, and they want to be, but also gives me borders in which to move. Well, you have very interesting things that fuel your process, something else that you've brought up in an entirely separate conversation from the podcast was during the correspondence we were talking about a piece, and you mentioned self-doubt in relation to writing, but for you, it wasn't destructive, it was a productive kind of reference. You said that doubt is the essence of progress, so can you tell us what you meant by that? I always question my opinions, other people's opinions, what I like and what I don't. One of the main classes for me working for a diverse range of publications is that I can have a very strong opinion, which is almost a gut reaction to a show, and sometimes the show that I really don't like are the ones that keep banging in my mind, and I keep thinking about them. I have the right to change my opinion, and I've done it many times, so what I didn't like at the beginning maybe I liked six months down the line, because I see things from a different perspective, because I see fashion criticism from a fashion show, a little bit like a mix between being a theater critic and a fashion critic, because you judge a light performance in which the coding is immersed into a whole experience. And sometimes I also notice it might sound a little bit silly, but the way you look at the show if you had lunch or not, if you had an annoying conversation before that or not. If the person sitting at your side is occupying your space, make you feel uncomfortable. All those little elements add up to the final reading. Sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way, for instance, if I skip lunch I can be super grumpy. I know that. I try to be aware of that, but it's something that happens, especially if I am particularly harsh in judgment, and believe me, sometimes if I'm harsh, I have to deal with the reunion causes with designers or the PRs afterwards, because they want to know. Maybe when I go to this meeting, I still keep my opinion, but then when I see the reactions, maybe I question myself or change my mind or not change my mind, but I question maybe the way I express my judgment. Another person that's been really formative for me in my career is Alabotendi, who was the fashion editor at the Italian Financial Times, which is my main Italian geek as a critic. When I first started writing in newspaper, I should really like the writing, but you are really too harsh, because in English speaking journalists can be very direct in your times, the financial times. They are very sharp articles. Really we are a little bit more, let's say, nuanced in a way, so she told me, "Angelo, you can keep your opinion. You don't have to kiss anybody, but express that in a way that they don't get offended." For me, that's the important thing, because my aim as a critic is not to show the world how harsh or how difficult to believe I am. For me, criticism, which is the same thing that I received from all the women that I mentioned before. One week before doctoral dissertation, my teacher told me, "This section needs to be rewritten for tomorrow, because it doesn't work like this." For me, criticism is a constructive way to say, "This project is interesting, but there is these things that don't work." The softer the opinion lands on the other person's table, the more effectiveness. If you slash someone, they only think about the scar. They only see the blade cutting through the skin. And if you give that with the feathers before, maybe it's a more pleasant than just getting a stab. What a good metaphor. You're leading us into a very good question that we've asked a number of people, specifically critics, of course, which is, "How do you view the role of the critic today, both in fashion as well as culture?" Because the main gig that you've just mentioned in Italy is for a general interest paper, right? Absolutely. This is also what I really like. I have a wide range of publications. So I can write, let's say, more technically, in the bit of fashion, because I know that my readership is essentially of professional people. While in Solventi Quattrore is not a fashion readership, so if I choose to put certain pictures with my articles, I know that they will get surprised because maybe it's more banker kind of people, you know, suit and tie. So for me, the role of the critic is more important today, probably than it ever was, but comment is free and everybody has an opinion, but there is a deadly merge of commerce and opinion and also the power of brands which have become mostly like media brands. And the control that they have over opinions is that sometimes unbearable. Everybody has an opinion, but for me, the difference between a critic writing for a newspaper or a publication and a critic publishing their stuff on, let's say, Instagram that kind of digital critic is mainly promoting themselves as the critics. They're branding themselves as critics, so as the strongly opinionated individuals. While for me, the role of the critic in a publication is to help readers decode what they're saying and not to believe propaganda or any kind of storytelling that's being posed by the brand. Believe me, in my works and times, I see the show, I read the press release, I listen to the storytelling and I tell myself what the fuck is this? This is not making any kind of sense, you know? We get back to the topic of dub. I question everything. I want to question everything because of course, you know, as a writer, if people like the way you write and there are people who like my opinions and there are people who like my style, so sometimes I get hired by brands to write press releases and I do sometimes, sometimes I don't, but what I do is I always tell in the meeting is that I'm not going to have any kind of storytelling that I don't see in the clothing because if the storytelling is a made up story, this is bullshit, and me as a press release user, I don't want to read any kind of bullshit because that puts me in a bad mood already regarding the collection because I think that you want to cover up for a lack of something. So let's be straightforward and let's see. So for me, the role of the critic in culture in general is to avoid being a voice of the propaganda and to offer instruments to the reader to decode things their own way. I don't want with my stories to tell people to have my opinions. My biggest hope is that I offer them instruments, so by reading my opinion, they may be from their own looking at things that I've shown them. They can not agree with me, but they will add a way to read reality in another way because what we see can have so many points of access. It all depends on my own aesthetic experiences, your own aesthetic experiences, our upbringing and everything we've seen forms as Diana Rieland used to say they hide as to travel, but the troubles that I've done with my eyes are different from other people's troubles with their eye. So for me, it's not about pushing my opinion in someone as brain, but rather to offer instruments to look at the world in a different way. And how do you maintain that sort of level of honesty when having to navigate the political landscape each season because obviously you've touched upon brands and their kind of desire to control what's said about them and then the need to have a coffee with someone afterwards in the case you've given them a negative review? Is it become more challenging to navigate that integrity in honesty or absolutely becomes more and more? This thing really depends on my mood or on the season sometimes. You get an email for a reunion coffee and you're happy about it. And sometimes you know it's just like I would just prefer to stop writing and don't have to deal with kind of necessities anymore. Because there are a lot of different things that stay in this kind of moments because you doubt your self-worth what you do, your opinion, sometimes things can get out of scale because maybe your opinion brings brands to advertising budgets from a newspaper. And that's a huge impact on the newspaper itself because we can put our hands on our eyes, but magazines and newspaper mostly survive not insult copy but on advertising that's been sold. I try to still be as open and honest as possible. Of course you become a master of the months, the more you are navigating to the writing to the years. Sometimes it just becomes impossible. This is a really a big turmoil for me. I think there is no real solution because also you deal with other people with other personalities. And for me the worst thing is that sometimes you give a bad review to someone like let's say Gucci's first show with Sabato was in mid-epsy and no no you would see that. The guy is perfectly fine but it was not meant to be a leader in there. So you give it a bad review so the PR gets upset. So sometimes you just can cope with things others you just get offended or sometimes you just get sad. I mean we're humans and I'm not a robot so sometimes it really it's hard because you know what the problem is this. When you hit someone one of the main responses that they can give you is I don't invite you to the next show. So for me that is a big no-no because I think the activity of the critic can only happen when you look at things with your eyes live in the place not through video not through pictures because a video is an edited point of view it's not your point of view you know. If I decide to just look at the back of the show I can because I can turn and see the back of the models while if I have the point of view of the official video I can only see the front. If really a fixed point of view which is not decided by me. So if a brand because it's offended denies me access to the show I'm denied the possibility to do my job the way I want to do it and that for me is a detriment to my work because I will go to the show of the design and even if I've slashed the previous show because I'm always curious always excited and I never have a prejudice about the show. I can have loaded the one before and really like this one I never know that is also what is so exciting for me about session the surprise you never know what it's going to happen sometimes you just go into a show ball let's say okay let's waste another half an hour two years ago I went to the first ball show by Simone Velotti and I just went there because the PR called me Angela please come there is a new designer because the one before was like really nothing so I was like I don't want to come I want to have a gelato because it was a really packed day. Okay let's go use it down the show starts and at the third look you think okay this is going to be something and thank God I came thank God the PR was insistent enough to have me here I was not prepared at all to have a surprise so for me that show was the highlight of the season and also I remind her why I like fashion so much because you never know which way you can be surprised I would also imagine that you must be quite a sensitive person in order to write the way you do because in the absence of the ability to feel those emotions you probably couldn't convey them so effectively in the written word right absolutely Christopher my main aim actually when I write at least what I have in mind is that I am sitting I take the reader by the hand the reader sits beside me and I just want to see things through my eyes and to my emotions then they can from their own but I would like them to feel in the room with me that's why there are so many atmospheric elements in my writing because the feelings that I have at the show are manifold that are many more layers than just looking at close so I would like to convey the kind of emotional complexity to the reader you do it beautifully I love the quote from your piece from 10 magazine last year the older I get the more I prefer fantasy to reality imagination to facts and striding along fantastic paths of pure cerebral study don't get me wrong I'm a dreamer but not an escapist I know that fantasy has to somehow crash to the ground in order to become reality yet I'm also adamant that keeping one's standards high in dream like is the only way to go in that same article you talked about the generative power of frustration so what's your advice on how best to walk that narrow line of being the dreamer that knows when to land in favor of making things reality oh this is a really personal balance I don't have a perfect recipe I know for myself when I had to start being just a dreamer and get my feet back on the ground you know because I can be carried away very easily I am a fair within the imagination so when I accept looking at the shows and time to my mind really drifts and they have to say that sometimes I fall asleep at fashion shows so I feel the voids with very little dreams there is a colleague of mine with an entire camera roll of me living at shows it's very difficult to navigate because I know that one thing that I really want to avoid in being a dreamer or an escapist is like pricing the past compared to the present of course when I was at that magical Marjela showed the last one from John Galliano the one in January 24 of course the first thing that I thought was like oh I've seen this from John 20 years ago or less when it was a cure of course it was another house it was another static but the roots were the same the thing kind of imaginative mind and the kind of sense of glamour and decay I wanted to push that feeling I've seen this already away because I was seeing that a new in other context and people who have never been there in the first place were seeing that for the first time in that moment I hate when all the colleagues of mine tell me all of course shows in the 90s were so magical there were so few people of course okay but fashion is also about pushing forward endlessly so really I don't have a way to say when to stop dreaming it when to start getting in reality because it's something that I manage to do all the time sometimes when I write the press releases that I mentioned before and sometimes I just ask designers to tell me what they have been thinking that season and I don't want to see the clothing because I imagine the clothing I tell them listen if I see the clothing I cannot write the press release anymore because Angela the critic steps in while Angela the dreamer needs not to see the clothing but needs to hear your words and form or is fantasy in order to get your fantasy a shaping towards despite being Italian you seem to favor Paris when it comes to markets for show season absolutely it's not because in Italy we always think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence usually outside of Italy for me it's not about being in Paris but I think that Paris is the only real fashion hub in the world it's really international fashion capital you can find designers from all corners of the world Belgium, Japan, India, Spain everything everything is in there the shambles in the car that a wonderful job in creating art schedule that's really exciting all the days and you can see that they take a lot of care in having one big week you can always make discoveries in Paris there is always something that you were not prepared to see but that pops up apparently out of nowhere I like the city too and the locations are always so beautiful you can have some very lovely surprises like I didn't like it all the Jacques Mous show in the orange area to Versailles but the place I've been there already for other shows but so fantastic and sometimes you're just surprised by the view or even an industrial building sometimes it's just a magical place like last year when Adrice did his last show in June for menswear it was an industrial building but it was made it's such a beautiful way the cattle was all gold leaf as we left the show there was a giant disco ball rolling inside the room but the disco ball was really like giant almost like the whole room Paris is a city that's been made throughout history to be loved to be looked at would you ever live there I could also overcome the rudeness of the Parisians sometimes but yes I could live there yes in the city it's a little bit complex to navigate because there is road works all the time what I also like about Paris is that if you have enough time you can walk from place to place and walk in through Paris the most beautiful thing actually if I can because I write most of my stories on the phone and somehow I manage to learn how to walk drive and not get hit by any car or any other pedestrians so I love to walk and sometimes I just turn and see a beautiful building on see a beautiful angle it's really a magical place and you're talking about writing your commissioned reviews while you're walking through Paris on your phone yes yes that's in Sydney or in the car if I am in a rush you've actually also expressed one of your worst fears as being the idea that you could become static in your thinking or writing but how is it that you combat that outcome in your day-to-day what is it that you do to avoid that from happening doubt as I said before and I try to learn as much as possible from younger I befriend younger people like really younger than me because I'm interested in the point of view and they in their references because they are different from mine that is very important to me because seeing things through other people's eyes can help you sign tune your vision and the look at things that you've never looked at before my fear becoming studying is starting to look back and thinking that the past was better than the present and of course the past was better than the present for every generation so I think that maybe my parents saw that the my generation in the early 80s was like completely lost now we are demonizing I don't know TikTok or Instagram back then it was the video games so there is always something that the all the generation don't understand about the newer and I don't want to get that kind of moralistic stance on things and also in fashion what I really like is something that surprises me that makes me think or where I see brain and invention at work but sometimes some moments in history are not about that this moment is history is not about invention is not about the thing is about how you put things together it's more about the editing or the mixing or the curating Jonathan Anderson is so good that is it is a curator design of course he has designed people with him but it will be remember not as much for the shade that he has created but how he has assembled so many different things together into one thing that makes sense and it makes sense because there is a curator mine is all mine at work in this and there is a notion that is very important that by the results and neglected a taste behind that makes sense and that makes him non-easily replicable because that kind of clarity in taste comes from having learn what to light along your whole life it's not about putting things together at random I'm always drawn to everything that's elongated that's vertical for me it's like the epitome of beauty so I remember this being in my mind since I was very little everything that was long even in you know cartoons on the tally if the character were long I would like glue to the screen and then I of course I studied art history and then you start seeing more things that were elongation it important and then your taste gets a little bit more in depth and it becomes more structured more and once so you can see verticality in different things in a building in a sculpture in a dress in a painting that is what I mean that the roots of taste are almost stintured but then there is a thing that counts from the brain it's a very interesting complex topic because it's path rational and path completely irrational that sounds very philosophical completely leaning into what you were just saying about preferring to always look forward to not fall prey to the idea of being static or becoming static what are your thoughts on this present moment where the sort of titans of the old guard in terms of magazine editors are slowly starting to officially all retire and then you have historical institutions such as two of your favorites like ID in the face who are being relaunched by new teams how do you feel about those types of massive chefs when it comes to looking forward I'm let's say a pessimist optimist so I always look at things with a critical eye but my first feeling is that if tussure is going to be right I want to believe that I don't want to close the door on whatever happens before it happens because that would be a very static and very moralistic way we cannot have Terry and Tricia back because they were also an expression of their moment that moment in time so there is people that are expressing this moment so I will look at what they do and for me the most important thing is not to make comparisons to the past because otherwise of course the new idea or the new the face will never be the idea or the fate that I loved when I wrote the review of the first Julian Mauser show in March for the business of fashion I got a very nice note from the CEO of the brand with a friend of mine because I wrote making comparisons between this guy and this is pointless yes God is point of view and is moving forward and my friend just told me you've done more with this with your positive review of the show because for us that's what important so it's like looking forward what has done has been done Julian has been working injuries for a long time so he knows where I hate the word colds but let's say what is the stylistic framework to do with at risk but he also has his own personality so he can all look forward at my reaction to Glen Martin's first show at middle Marjela was a little bit mild because Marjela was one of my early fashion passions but I cannot make any comparison between what he does and what Martin has done it was another moment so I can only judge what it is doing now and acknowledge the fact that the house now is another thing I hate when people say oh is it Balenciaga he should have done these I remember that when 10 years ago Demna was appointed as the creative director of Balenciaga a colleague of mine made a laugh that okay it's going to destroy the brand and I was already very interested in met mom and I told him let's look because the guy is a very strong eye for certain things so maybe he can give us a thing that we not expect at all and honestly for me the very first show from Demna at Balenciaga was the show of the decade it's fantastic in fashion when you see a show and you think this is the shift when you see that the tide is changing it happens less and less but when it happens everybody sees that when there is something that turns the cars on the table for everyone you can see that immediately and that's a wonderful feeling because it energizes the designer but it also energizes the person of the critic who's looking at that well speaking of storytelling and different mediums you said that your dream publication would be mercilessly pictureless tell us more because I kind of wonder if people are even capable of consuming information in the absence of visual aids these days that statement that was a lie a little bit of a publication stems from when I work mostly for the newspaper in Italy I don't put pictures of every show of course and also the size of the pictures depends on the importance of the brand and how they deal with the newspaper so maybe you have a big picture of a show that you completely hate and you have to talk at the length about because it's a big advertiser and maybe the show that you really like ends up with no picture or small picture so I thought oh it would be fantastic to have a fashion magazine with no pictures just words and also because I think Christopher that the words have a fantastic power that can unleash the imagination in my experience I make little workshops in schools and stuff so in fashion we use mood boards a lot but what strikes me sometimes is that the mood board becomes not the springboard or a collection but it becomes the limitation of a collection because what's in the mood board ends up in the collection once I saw in a mood board pictures from one of my favorite Helmut Lunt shows which was in the 90s and models were wearing red stockings so I thought there is this picture maybe it's about having something strange together like stockings with a slit red there cannot be a pair of red stockings I turn and there was a pair of red stockings with a pink dress this is when the mood board becomes a limitation words can bring the imagination in which of course they make things more difficult but they can bring the imagination in whichever place one was so if I would ever be the teacher yet let's say at the final year project at school I would give my brief just with words with no mood boards a magazine with no pictures would be very interesting so people should just imagine and also I think that today to be very easy you can log on Vogue Ranway or whatever you like or you just go to Instagram and see the pictures about the old show so you don't need to add the pictures with my text you can look for pictures as well and maybe have a fantasy around my writing what you're describing is also the difference in the user experience of someone reading a book versus watching a film based on said book absolutely it's always like that and it also comes from my experience when I hear a designer describing me his collection and me seeing the collection on the rack that's the moment when the fantasy becomes reality but it's not like landing on the ground but crashing on the ground do you think that you would ever be interested in finding yourself on substack I have to say that I've been getting familiar with the platform just recently as I told you at the beginning of our conversation I need commission you don't blog I don't blog I would maybe make just a collection of writings that I've written here and there I know this can sound a little bit strange but I need to work with an editor I don't feel easy in self-publishing I want to have an exchange with someone in the sense my favorite editor is Jonathan Wingsfield is the best because we have very non-conversation about my writings before I act to rewrite I do the same with Daniela Sornetti at the Dela Republika and with Dekram at this is a fashion I need to talk with people and someone that goes to the text and tells me maybe we can take this away or blah blah it's just the way I work with mine I want to have an exchange I don't want to feel like a monologue like I'm walking with words for the reader I want this to be meaningful and sometimes as a writer you get trapped in your own writing you like a sentence to match the date away and someone with no attachment to your text in that sense can just cut it away you know they're what's so true I mean they always say everybody's better with an editor we're talking about experience and pleasure and things we enjoy or prefer in this case parameters and constraints or rules and whatnot but how would you define the luxury today because obviously some people have newly described it as experiences or time or freedom or health or whatever might be but to you how would you define luxury today oh that's a very hard question for me first I hate the word luxury because it's been so overused and using the wrong place for me that real luxury today is looking at things to your eyes and forming your opinion for yourself not being directed by algorithms other people's opinion on propaganda storytelling so having the freedom to explore something almost like you see the thing for the first time and you just be surprised I hate the idea of entering the interim expecting already what I would see in the room I like the idea of going in a place and soak my eyes with everything around me I'm a big observer I rarely go to parties and if I go I go to observe people because people watching it they really get to pleasure for me I really like that I am really fascinated by the way you months can interact or how a social structure or a hierarchy can be up and just in a matter of very few things I find so fascinating how you can place yourself in the social law that by the way you dress or not dress how many meanings you can convey to people just not speaking through mannerism through dressing to body posture to servant language now I'm curious do you think of yourself as an introvert or an extrovert I'm an introvert big time but all the introverts can be very bald introverts came blow their baldest mood the most unexpected then probably untimely moment I'm very introvert I think because of that I'm quite bald in the way I dress even though the dressing is quite rigorously or monastic but I know that is my shield and I know that if I dress in a certain way that's the way that attracts attention rather than diverting them I'm an introvert also because it takes a lot of time for me to talk to people I prefer to be silent for me the worst thing is being at the dinner with people I don't like that much at my side I'm very bad at small talk probably the worst at small talk once I was at the dinner I think Roma and across from me was the artist Katarina Jeb you know the photographer who does pictures with a big scanner and she was an artist that I wanted to meet for a long time and she was exactly the kind of woman that I imagined that there to be so we went talking the whole time and the day after she invited me to her studio but I've been to dinner where I was like completely silent and I'm that sure that people with me thought that was completely dumb because that was not say one word but sometimes silence is a power move I remember watching a funny sort of meme on your story's drinkator and I don't remember what the visual was exactly but it was essentially illustrating someone who pretends to be having fun wherever they go and your kind of added caption was me every time I attend a fashion show I tell you more because that was hysterical given your role in the industry so it actually was a video of a cat with a very grumpy expression looking through a window because you have to know that every time that there is a I don't know for which kind of astral motivation but I always end up in the video of the show if there is a live streaming people see and I get so many messages from friends with a screenshot of my face looking super grumpy and they say okay you're enjoying the show so that expression of that cat it was like really super grumpy not liking what was on the cardboard is exactly my face as I see in those pictures because I have the thing in mind that my face is complete neutral so nobody can see what I think from my face why actually everybody can see that's the response that I get the most from my friends that my face speaks you energy if I don't speak so if I don't like someone it's always super apparent like right away so I made fun of that because that cat was exactly mean that moment looking super grumpy and thinking of myself okay nobody's seeing how much I don't like this show I mean it was hysterical I remember looking at it and thinking it was so funny coming from you of all people and we have to ask you our namesake question of course which is what is contemporary now what is contemporary now I've been thinking about this since you asked me to be in this what's contemporary so difficult to grasp because contemporary is what in the moment about the moment is extremely transient so probably what's contemporary now is avoiding the finish on in a moment that soul about being defined by things or by what you do what you see because in the end what is the algorithm is a way to define you and your taste and your proclivities to what you like and for me avoiding the finish on is in a way are we being fluid and not easy to grasp and probably this fluid is what it's contemporary now if it makes sense no it makes perfect sense it sounds very much like a goal we should all pursue like Bruce Lee telling us to behave like water absolutely that's it my element is water absolutely beautiful thank you so much Angeloy I'm so glad we got to do this and it was an absolute pleasure I appreciate your time thanks for tuning in to this episode of what's contemporary now special thanks to our producer Sasha Grindblatt audio post-production by Chase Coughlin with original theme music by Joseph Topmiller and Chase Coughlin of the Blacksoft and visual designed by Aaron Meager and Graham Prentice subscribe now to be the first to catch new episodes each week and if you've enjoyed listening we'd love to hear from you leave us a review and let us know your thoughts your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners like you follow us on instagram and linked in for additional content and join the conversation let us know what you think is contemporary now