Angela Rayner on her return to the top table: 'It’s good to give people a second chance'

Hello, welcome back to Political Thinking. We've been off for the summer, but back for a rather exciting new season, given that we have a new Prime Minister. These, as you know, if you listen from time to time, are conversations, not newsy interrogations with people who shape our political thinking. And my guess this week is someone I've talked to twice before on Political Thinking, Angela Reiner. The first time we talked many years ago, she taught me her extraordinary personal story. The story of helping to care for a mother who had mental health problems, who couldn't read and write, couldn't always read the label on tins to make sure that she was buying food for her kids, run food for a pet. The last time we spoke was back in 2022, after the collapse of Liz Truss's government. Now we talk as Labour's made its own dramatic change of leadership. Starma has gone and Burnham is here and in part that is because of Angela Reiner. After a disastrous set of May elections, Reiner wrote, "What we're doing isn't working." And then she took another crucial decision. She decided to back Andy Burnham's bid to be the next leader, rather than as many people thought was possible, running herself. Now having dealt with a crisis that forced her to resign from the cabinet after allegations that she hadn't paid the tax she owed, she is back, back at the cabinet table as Burnham's housing secretary. And that job is big in itself, but she's got two other big responsibilities, for local government and what's called communities. Have a listen, as we talk about what's different between Burnham and Starma, how bad things got when she was forced to quit office, and how she thinks Labour can win back those she calls "Cowsell House Tories" of phrase she wants used to describe her own dad. But before that, let me just tell you about a new way of getting in touch. We've got a new email address and we do want to hear from you. I want to hear what you think I should be asking, those are running the country and those who want to run it, and those are shaping our public life both here and across the world. You can get in touch at political thinking, all one word, no gaps, political thinking, at bbc.co.uk. And of course if you've got an idea for a guest, maybe someone who's beyond the obvious, get in touch with that idea as well. And Joanna, welcome back to Political Thinking. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Whenever we talked, when you were Keir Starma's deputy, you were kind of clear. You couldn't be more different as personalities. You know, you're not exactly soulmates. Do you feel comfortable now in a way that maybe you weren't able to before? Well, I always said that I was sort of the young to Keir Starma's young and he had a very different way about how he would tackle a problem, whereas I sort of came in very emotional. He'd come in with the statistics and the, and for example, for those things are really important and I felt complemented our leadership styles. But, you know, reflecting on working with Andy, I've known Andy a very long time. And ironically, the first time I met Andy was I was a union rep when I was a home care worker in Unison North West and him alongside Michael Meacher and Tony Lloyd. Local Manchester Labour at least. Local Manchester MPs, Andy of course was the MP for Lee. And I was, I was, I remember seeing this panel of MPs and just thinking, well, you know, they, they need to do something about the care sector. And I was giving them a bit of grief about our campaign time to care in 15 minute care calls. And I remember like even after that Andy says, I remember that day, you, I said that day you were going to go far, you know, we need to say these things. And then coming full circle was a few weeks ago when Andy took over his prime minister, I sat in the audience when Andy delivered the speech about care and social care. And I've got to say it was one of the most emotional moments for me. No notes. And just basically came full circle and said everything. I've waited a long time for a prime minister to set, to say about the care sector, how important it is and how important it is that we tackle things like the 15 minute care calls. So I'm like, this is like the best for me that we've got. So you're really good about it. That Mr. And Mr. Methodicle, you once called care starmer has been replaced. What about Mr. Emotional? Well, I think that, you know, care took us to an incredible victory that no one, when me and care took over, when curious leader now is deputy, no one expected us to be able to get the combat we did. And actually, you know, Andy's talked about the manifesto of change, which is what I absolutely said. My critique was we wasn't doing it quick enough. I said, we need to put rocket boosters up it and tell the emotional story of Britain and why it was important. We're doing not just the what we're doing, but why do we do it? Why are we saying these things are important? What values do you mean? Yeah, our values. Why is it we want to build more council housing? Why is it we want to put more power back in people's hands locally? There was really important reasons to why we wanted to grow the economy that I felt we needed to put that emotional. Of course, I'd say that that emotional link to our values and why Labour wants to do these things as a Labour Government. But what do you say to the people who say, well, it's all emotion, it's all comms, it's all vibes, it's all social media clips. There's not policy really. Well, I believe that there aren't the tough choices that are going to happen. I would dispute that on the basis of as soon as I was, you know, as soon as Andy asked me to come back into my old department, we've already done huge amount of announcements on whether it's a 10 billion that was putting into social and affordable housing, the control backings are high streets, whether it was giving power back to maids, whether it was the housing around train stations. But I do think it's important that there is a sense of pride and a sense of hope for the country, but that we're fighting with them. That's really interesting for me to say we're fighting with them because one of the things you said when you wrote a piece about Labour's failures in the May elections, which let's be honest, we're the beginning of the end for Keir Starmer, was we don't look like the party of the working class anymore. I mean, Andy spoke about in the by-election as being for us, and I think we managed that that point ahead of the May elections sort of like we were against everyone. I mean, there wasn't anyone with us at that point. It felt like the country was very frustrated with where Labour had got, and I think that, you know, Andy, recognising the challenges, recognising the successes that Keir put us on the path too, because, you know, he said that in terms of the manifesto commitments, etc, but recognising the challenges of taking people with us and being on their side and making people see that that's what we're doing as a government. Now let's talk about you, because you've had quite a year before you came back into the cabinet. It was a turbulent year for you. You face these allegations that you hadn't paid the tax you should. Has that experienced changed you, do you think, as a person, maybe as a politician? I think one of the things for me was the devastation of, you know, I always try and follow rules and make sure I do things proper, and I've got the advice at the time, and, you know, and the, you know, H. Marcy said that there wasn't any wrongdoing, and I was relieved as part of that, but I was mortified of the thought that I would do something that I expect other people to pay taxes. And also, I know the value of the tax payers, and know the value of what it does to change people's lives, because I needed that, and I speak really passionate about whether it's the counsellors in the income support I got, whether it was going back into adult education. These were all funded through taxation, and it's really important for me. So I was horrified, genuinely, really upset, and not because what people said about me, because I felt I'd let myself down, and I felt I'd let my family down, and that, that was difficult for me, because I set a high bar for myself, because I want to do good, and I want people to be proud of what I do, and I want people to look at people from my background. I came from a background where, on the estate, I grew up, we were considered like lowest of the low. We weren't even working class, because we weren't working, you know, that's where we were putting the pecking order, and I'm so proud of my roots, and the people I grew up with, and therefore I didn't want anyone to think that that's what we're like, you know, it's always, they're all robbers, or they're all on the take, or they're all on benefits. That's how they used to talk about people from my estate, and people like me, you know, Angie Rainer, she got pregnant at 16, because she just wanted to cancel out. It's that stigma that didn't leave me, and therefore I'm proud to be who I am, I'm proud to stand up for the values that I stand up for, and I'm proud to stand up for the people I grew up with, and that's where I thought I'd let myself down, and I'd let my family down, and I made a mistake, but it was a genuine honest mistake, and it was corrected, and HMRC found that I hadn't done any wrongdoing, which I was pleased with that, but you know, it was difficult. But I don't know when you thought that's it, I have blown it. I'm not coming back. The thing for me was my son at the time was just that transition period of going from being a child. Mae yw'r gweithio'r maen nhw'n gweithio fel hynny. Mae'n gweithio fel hynny. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'r gweithio, mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio Mae'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n Mae'n gweithio yn ffordd o'r online. Mae'n gweithio yn ffordd o'r online. yng Nghymru gweithio'n gweithio gweithio. Mae'n gweithio gweithio gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio ac mae'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. Gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. Dwi'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. Gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. I'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. I'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. I'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. I'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. I'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. I'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. Do you think what some people call the culture wars? The Labour Party is seen to be on the wrong side for many of those voters. They think you don't get how we see the world. I think Andy hit the nail on the head when he was quite honest about the 40 years and neoliberalism and what that meant. It meant that people felt they had less control over, there was rapid change in our communities in working class communities and people felt less control. They felt that their services had been privatised and they haven't got better services. They feel like services have gone further away from them. I feel like a lot of that sense of frustration that we didn't understand, that level of decline that people felt like people are working so hard. You still can't get this started and I'm still having to pay for all these things and then they see what they can do to be completely unfair, cue-hopping almost as I would say. There were some politicians even making that distinction that they were taking when the fuel allowance from the elderly, the people who were coming over and small boats. It was this divisive nature that made people feel like, well, hang on a minute, I'm playing by the rules and the rules don't seem to protect me, yet others are seen to get more, which is not true. It's not true because it seems to be that for a very, very long time politicians on the left, but not exclusively, conservatives did it as well, did tend to sort of explain to people, and no, I know you think there's cue-hopping. Let me take one example. Andy Sain is a get that we've got our strong borders and we've seen a seven-year low in boat crossings and I think some of the challenges, some of the fake news that is not true to where we are. For example, some of my opposition parties are saying people, they're coming out with proposals that foreign nationals can't get their council housing and that we're going to stop all these people taking the counter. They're not Nick, majority of 89% of people who get council social housing are UK nationals. The problem is, it's for decades, we've solved off council housing and we haven't built more homes for people, it's because we haven't built enough social housing. You know, there'll be plenty of people, you say, more than one in ten council houses and housing association houses, going to non-British nationals, well, still too high they might say to you. They might say that, but for their people, they could be EU national people that have lived and worked here for many, many years. So it's just this idea that people come over on a small boat who are here illegally, if they come on a boat, they've got to be processed, that they're somehow going into council housing, which is just not true. And the challenge that we face at the moment with our council housing and social housing is we haven't got enough and that's what Andy's tasked me with and that's why we've made those announcements over the summer about the investment in social housing so that we can really ramp up council house building. But is your view then that the anger you say is there, about cute jumping, for example, and the anger about, you know, we've worked hard all our lives and we don't get what quotes these people get. Is solved by building more council housing, by getting better wages and better jobs, a sort of economic solution, if you like, because there are people that say, well, as well as that, you have to get the cultural side. And you're kind of the minister for the cultural side, you're not the one who decides on policing the boats, you have to understand what Louise Casey wrote about in a report, what almost ten years ago actually, where she said too many leaders, she said when she was asked about social integration, about whether communities come together or not, have chosen to take the easy path when confronted with these issues in the past. Sometimes she said with good intent, and it means that these issues are duct swept under the carpet allowed to fester. But I think the challenge is one of, as I came back to before about fairness and about people feeling like we're pulling in the same direction. So, I think that's why the average value standing up for the rule of law, standing up for fairness, giving people opportunity, as Andy says, giving people hope. But then the pathway to that is recognising that we've got to have secure borders. People are concerned about people arriving illegally on small boats, that's why we've got seven years ahead. ac mae'n gweith i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio. Mae'n ddechrau'r gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod diolch yn gwybod diolganol. Felly mae'n ffordd sy'n ffordd yn ffordd sy'n ffordd sy'n ffordd sy'n ffordd sy'n ffordd sy'n ffordd sy'n ffordd sy'n ffordd sy'n ffordd sy'n o'n gweithio i'n gweithio, o'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i a'r ffordd y ffordd y ffordd sy'n mewn i'n timoddau. Mae'n mewn i'n baleclawr i'n mewn i'n ddach. Mae'n timoddau y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd. Mae'n ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y fford Mae'n gwybod, mae'n gweithio hynny'n gweithio hynny'n gweithio hynny'n gweithio hynny'n gweithio hynny'n gwe ac mae'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio ac mae'n gweithio gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud i'n gweithio gwneud. It is the home secretary's job to deal with the numbers coming. Your jobs to worry about people who are here and whether the integrate and whether communities are happy and content. Do you see that as a big part of your job? What are you going to do because there is a worry I think from some people that this as Louise Casey said 10 years ago isn't really taken seriously at best and at worst there's a temptation to pander. To organise groups who tell you to leave them alone. Well I see you know the great and the good in our communities. I saw that in my working class community when I talked about before I'll do rotors off on our estate and fought with our wrongdoons but we didn't. There was this great sense of community. We saw it in the aftermath of Southport where communities come together. I saw it after the Manchester Arena attack. I saw it only the other week when I was at heat and park at the memorial. The small numbers of violin or illegal or divisive or nastiness. That's not who we are. You can see it on social media. It is not reflective of what I see in our communities every day. Bringing those values of it's all and I think that's why Andy absolutely smashed the by-election that people said how can he turn that around and win that by-election. He won't it because he gets it. He's one of us and he gets that values and that sense of being part of something greater than yourself and community cohesion and bringing communities together and having that positivity to me is really important. But not losing sight of when people say that there is issues that need to be resolved. You have to resolve them. You can't keep kicking the can down the road which is what Andy says about investment in communities, about investments in the high streets, about building the council loans that people need and about the jobs. Just what other policy question before we talk a little bit more personally again which is interesting here when you talk about investment because what again the critics say of Andy Burnham is he's got the vibes where he can't take tough decisions. And at Prime Minister's questions this week he was asked to get again where he get money for defense. Now it could have been about anything. It could have been about paying for social care. It could have been about paying for more council housing. There's a lot of things he says he wants to do. And his answer was partly that you delivered for him. He said because you're going to build more council houses, the benefit bill would be lower. It's one of the things he said, isn't it? Because Alan Milburn, former cabinet minister, is look at ways to get young people to work. That'll get the benefits bill down to really think you can pay for the biggest increase in defense spending in my lifetime. And for a revolution where everybody gets free social care by those measures. So really? Yeah, so let me let me weave this together because I absolutely especially on social care do I think we pay far too much. I mean look at children's care homes for looks after children that we pay astronomical amounts for really in some cases really poor standards. And if you put in an older person in a trolley in an ambulance or on an A&E ward, I know from my experience that that older person getting care in their community will cost a huge amount less. And therefore you will bring it down. I'm absolutely convinced of that point. I know it from the time that I spent on the front line. But you know, on these other issues that you talk about I pay credit to Rachel Reeves and to Kirstama on this because we are the fastest growing economy in the G7 and Rachel invested in things like the National Housing Fund. So the money that she's invested now, which is what she front loaded and she was criticized for making those decisions, but she did make those decisions, which has set us on a pass so we can do the transformation. So we can bring down the welfare bill and the Prime Minister said this really clearly today, I think, and articulated it really well. It's that the way Labour does it is by giving opportunity, by putting the path there for people. And I get this, and it comes back to that central point that I made before. The question was not whether there's a good idea or not. Not whether it's valid. That's how you. You think you can raise tens of billions of pounds, which. And he says he wants to spend on defence. Tens of billions of pounds potentially on transfer and social care programme. By squeezing the benefits, this might give him more opportunities. Well, it's not just about raising funds because if you look at our tax base at all, it really puts us to the highest tax burden. So what there are ways, you know, the Kemi talk today, and I thought she had a cheek to be honest to say the welfare bills balloon it. It was like, if you looked at where the welfare bill went under the Conservatives, but that's because they had people out of work or they didn't give people the opportunities for the good jobs. I defended my employment right, sad, because it gave people money in their pockets. So that's how you challenge that system, and therefore you bring down the welfare bill. Because we're not subsidising low pay, and we're not keeping people on benefits when they want to be in work. And I believe working class people and majority of the people in the country want to be in work. They don't want to be in a situation where they're having to have benefits. It's a dehumanising of it, Nick. And this, the psychology I think they don't get is that that dehumanise is somebody. You want to feel valuable and you want to contribute. What's been really interesting, lots of things have been interesting in this conversation, but tell you one thing that's really been interesting is you've said Andy about a hundred times. I mean, you said you were close, you had known him for a very long time. You had to make a big decision. You had to make a decision not that long ago that he would run to replace Guest Armor and not you. Why didn't you go for it? Because I, you know, Andy wanted to put himself forward and I believe in him. I believe in his passion. And I believe that he believes he knows that he needs a team to do it. And I believe in what he says about he doesn't want point scoring. He wants to find solutions. He believes in yourself. It's not that long ago. It's what, back in January, it's a fundraising dinner. You said I'm not dead yet. You said rather than a family. No, but I wonder there were people, lots of people who wanted you to run for leader and they get frustrated that you haven't been because that doesn't add a woman leader and elected woman leader at least. And also they think that once again a proud working class woman or a proud working class individual who talks about Alan Johnson not running for leader when Gordon Brown was in trouble. Still decide. For the boy who talks a lot about it, he'd go to Cambridge and get a fancy degree. Let's be honest and then became a full time political advisor. Why not you? Why weren't you the right person? Because I believe in the team effort of our movement and I think I can make a contribution and I wanted it. Mae'n ei wneud iawn, mae'n ei wneud iawn ei wneud iawn. Mae'n ei wneud iawn ei wneud iawn. Mae'n ei wneud iawn. Mae'n ei wneud iawn. Mae'n ei wneud iawn. Mae'n ei wneud iawn. Mae'n ei wneud iawn.