Angela Duckworth, a renowned psychologist and author, discusses the limitations of focusing solely on personal grit as the driver of success. In her new book, *Situated*, she argues that human behavior and achievement are profoundly shaped by situational context—such as socioeconomic status, relationships, and environment—rather than just individual effort. She shares personal anecdotes, like her harrowing snorkeling experience with her mother, to illustrate how even strong willpower can fail when circumstances are inherently unfavorable. Duckworth introduces the "three-box model" of human behavior: actions (behavior), thoughts (cognition), and situations (context), emphasizing that to understand any behavior, one must trace it back to its situational roots. She highlights real-life examples, such as Leon Martjand, who improved his swimming performance not through greater effort, but by changing his training environment to one with better resources and mentorship. Duckworth also critiques the idea that grit alone leads to success, noting that people often overlook the power of external factors like mentorship, culture, and geography. She stresses that true agency involves recognizing and adapting to one’s situation, rather than relying solely on internal willpower. Ultimately, her message is that understanding and actively shaping one’s environment—through choices like changing location, seeking mentors, or altering routines—is essential for long-term success and well-being. This perspective challenges the common narrative of success as a personal triumph of perseverance and instead presents it as a complex interplay between individual traits and situational forces.
Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert experts on expert. Oh my Lord top 10 favorite guest returning. I love when she's here. She's so fun to talk to you. You can hit her with any topic and she has data on it. Angela Duckworth. Angela is a psychologist, a MacArthur fellow and a best-selling author of of course, grit. She is the Rosalie and Egbert Chang professor at the University of Pennsylvania. Her new book which is a fun counterpiece to grit. I love this book so much. It's called Situated Find the People in places that bring out your best. Please enjoy our friend Angela Duckworth. I'm getting comfortable. I'm gonna take my time. Actually I think it's because we're small. How tall are you? I have five feet and a half inch. I am five one. My God. I'm taller than you. You're taller than me. Now quickly. Yeah. Since you're both barefoot once you achieve that goal. Yeah. I want you guys to stand back to back because I do think it's interesting what they think their height is and I have found that I think when you get your license. Yeah. Whatever the tallest you ever were when you got your license. You just kind of cement that in your brother. Forever. Yeah. You may no longer be. No longer be slash it might have not been a very accurate right. I mean guys all the time that are like I'm this height and I'm like well either I'm completely wrong or you're wrong because men really want to be tall. So I think they do a little. You don't think the five footer like if you're four eleven and a half you're saying five. I think girls do it too. Not as bad. Not as bad I agree. I think it's as much of an epidemic. Yeah. But also I've measured myself many times because I also she has a huge breath. Exactly. Yeah. It's a brag because my wing span is also exactly five feet and a half inch. You're like a Leonardo Da Vinci. I am. I can't remember the name of that drawing. It's in my book. Yeah. The Suvius man. Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Suvius woman. Yeah. But you don't have scoliosis. So I just want you to know I'm a five four person in a five one body. Oh, ow. Yeah. But it's what you know that I am a five four person. Okay. You can interview me as a five four person. I think I'm a six foot person and a five foot body. But not because of scoliosis. That's just the way I think I'm just spiritually. Do you know who has savage scoliosis? Oh. You seen Bolt. Did you ever have you seen Bolt on? No, I would. Do any interviews does he? And I've never heard of it. Maybe if we went to Jamaica, I think he's in Jamaica. Maybe a great interview. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I would love it even if I didn't talk. I would just stare at him. Yeah. Oh my god. I never really got the whole skinny on what it was like to have Brad Pitt. But he was like, but then he was Brad Pitt. And I never got the answer to, okay, is he as drop dead gorgeous in person? Yeah. He's beautiful. That's what Monica valued. He's beautiful. He's sweet. Like, he's very nice. He's engaging. Playful. Yeah. I love him. Super present. Very present. Candid. I love him too. Oh, wow. To be human is to love him. That's how we will eventually test AI for the human. Yes. These are like pit tests. Yeah. Like what would you do in the same room as Brad Pitt? They'll never get it. You know, this is selfish probably. But I do judge a lot, especially men on how much they interact with me. Like they're looking at me just to him. Just yeah, just straight on to him and not really engaging with me at all. But not because you're a female, just because you're the other person. Because I'm the other person. Exactly. But women almost always engage with me. Oh. So for me, I was like, where's the gender thing coming? Go on, go on. That's great. This is so fun to talk about because I rarely get judgmental of the men. Part of me is just like, I at least see the history, right? It's just like, oh, yeah, you're a dude. You don't know either of us. But I'm a man I'm talking about. I'm tall. I'm going to, you know, yeah. He's identified me as having status in the room. What are we? We're just gonna say, like, let's say that too. Yeah. I am a little judgey. Occasionally we get women in who never look at Monica and those I'm more curious about those people and you're like minus seven. But are they experts? I just found out that this is an expert interview. Obviously, I'm not a celebrity, but I didn't know the rhythm. I didn't know that there were like, it's so I do. I'm a little hurt by that to be honest with you. How could you not? I don't listen to podcasts. Wait, do you listen to podcasts? Yeah, Malcolm Gladwell's a revisionist history. You do? Oh my god. I love it more than anything. Minus one for not listening to podcasts. I don't know any podcast. That's fine. That's fair. That's fine. If you start just it needs to be. I'm gonna start here. But here's the grass is always greener. So Ed Norton Edward Norton's big complaint. I don't know how many times we've had a mom, maybe three or four times. Three. And we're friends and he's constantly like, I want to be what color do we do? Green. Oh, he wants to be an actor. He's like, I want to be a green because he's like, he's like dying to be green. He was green. Can he just be green on acting? Yeah. Well, he was. Last time he was here, we had him green just because we also had Olivia Wilde on and it was the week of that movie. So she got yellow. But he wanted yellow. And then the experts are mad. They're not yellow, you know, certain. He is green though. He has so much knowledge on everything, not just acting. He's like very, very knowledgeable. So I understand why he wants to be seen as. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's the polymath square. Yeah. If you ever met him or talked to him, never met him. I have watched him. I'm sure he would love to meet. I like him. Yes. And like his work as they say. I bet you know his your work. Mm-hmm. You think? I do. What is he interested in? He's interested in human behavior. Everything. Are you asking him? Yeah. Now, if he's going to be like, you need to know. I'll say it in a spot. Yeah. Do you know who Angela Duckworth is? Yeah. This is like some kind of psychological logic. It is. For me. It's a psychological test for me. By the way, we're in an experiment right now. Did we not that design way? Yeah. Deciding to set forward. By the way, can I just thank you for reading my book? Thank you for reading my book. Of course. Of course. Anyway, thank you for reading my book. I put a blurb in your fucking book. Of course. I did. And I think I'm the second one that you've done, right? In general, let me tell you because this will be fun for you. I think I've been asked many times. And they always ask you to do a blurb for their book. And you haven't read it, right? They asked you before you've read it. And I think it's a very awkward thing to be asked because it's like, well, I haven't read it. I don't know if I want to endorse this. Then what I would have to do ethically is say, well, maybe let me read the book. I don't want to do something. I don't lie. I see what you're saying. You're like, please. And by the way, here, I've written it for you. And you haven't read the book. Exactly. And then even worse, I go, well, I would need to read it so that I really believe the thing. And then they give it to me. I don't like it. And then I have to call them. And so you know, I don't like it. So I don't want to give a quote. Right. This is a testament to how confident I was in you that I was like, yeah, I probably will. Let me read it. Normally, I don't want to deal with that situation where if I read it, I don't like it. Here's a story. A young woman author who shall remain nameless, sent me an email, maybe 15 years ago that said, I wrote this book. And I'd like you to endorse it. And I've written the endorsement for you, which you can edit or not, right? And it did have an attachment, which was the book. So it wasn't like, I'll never show you the book. But I was on that day in that moment in my life, deeply offended. I wrote back. I didn't swear or anything. But I was like, you know, who are you? I was indignant. I expressed. Oh, wow. Did you know who this person was? She was like, and acquaintance. Okay. Right. She was like, Oh my God. I'm so sorry. But I will tell you, it has haunted me for all those years. And like a year ago, I was reading this novel called the Correspondent. Stop. Love it. Yeah. Love it. Did it crush you? Like, no, everyone's obsessed. Did you read it? No, I haven't. Okay. That is in your future. Yeah. It's all told in letters. So it's all epistles. Like, there's no narrative. There's just letters that you read, like, love it together. It's correspondence. And it's mostly the correspondence of the narrator. It's a novel. So it's fiction. Anyway, in the novel, there is this kind of like reckoning with your sins. And so that episode where perhaps that young author was like out of step because like, who asked somebody to like, oh, and here's the bloat, right? But you know, who was more out of step? I was out of step because I was so mean. I was like, oh, she was devastated. So I reached out to her. Like, I found her. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. She's there. And I found her. And I said, do you remember all these many years ago when you reached out for an endorsement? And I was deeply offended. I was like, here's what I want to say. Who might be deeply offended? Somebody told you that you should do this. And I'm really sorry. Wow, that's great. She wrote me back in about six milliseconds. She was like, oh my god, thank you. And is this the author of correspondence? It is not the author. But just the fact that it was pretty close. That's what I thought. This was like, it's Virginia Evans. I wish it were. Like, actually, I don't think she would have done this. And also the correspondent was, I think, her first book. So she couldn't have done this because like, 15 years ago, so if you before she wrote a book, and I can't remember these act narrative detail, but it's like a little bit of redemption story. And I remember in the narrative, and maybe I miss her, that there was like a letter of like kind of confession. And so this was like my letter of confession to this stranger. By the way, she's lovely. I'm not going to tell you who she is, but she's great. Has she found success? She's been successful. Oh great. She wrote another book. Oh great. She did not ask me to do it. I wonder why. If she writes a third book, she could ask me and I'd be like, yeah, before I read it, I decided to sing. It's funny that you're offended. Would you not be offended? The part that offended you right is that she pre-wrote your blurb, right? Is that what it was offended? I was offended that she pre-wrote. Yeah, but as I said, I was wrong to be that offended. I should have been like offended like one out of 10. I was somehow like offended nine out of 10. She might have thought I'll take the load off.
>> Yeah, she thought she was doing you a fan. >> I was the total jerk who was like, yeah, that's why it haunted me for so many years. I can't believe it took me 15 years, like right now. >> Well, good for you. >> And now a public apology. >> And now a public apology, if she was listening. >> I think good for you. What if we've had her on the show? >> That'd be cool. >> I'm not going to tell you, because that would be de-anonymous. >> Yeah. >> So it's been 10 years between roughly, yeah, grit and situated? >> Exactly 10. >> Exactly 10. That's auspicious. >> It's a round number. >> I think what's most fun is how you come to write this book, and I'm referencing the graduate student that reached out to you. Could you tell us that story? >> I got a critique by a graduate student named Anindia. He was not my student. He was a student at NYU, and he was pursuing sociology. I'm a psychologist. He was a budding sociologist. I was looking at the person. He was looking at the situation. As a budding sociologist, Anindia said, you're blaming effectively people for not being successful, because they don't have grit, because they're not trying hard, and you're ignoring the situations they're in. Whatever defensive reaction that I had, I did say I'm curious, tell me more, and then he told me more. And I don't know very much about sociology, but I think what he was saying is correct, which is that when you don't think about a person in their situation as sort of two parts of a whole, then you lay blame at their feet undeservedly, and he was studying essentially with people moving from lower socioeconomic status to higher socioeconomic status. I think he was absolutely correct to point that out. I have an email from him yesterday asking, he's like, I got tenure, but I still might need a letter of recommendation. If that is true, ever is the answer, yes. And I said, if that is true, ever in the answer is, yes. So we ended up collaborating, I don't know if it's collaboration, just staying in touch. James Flynn, who is a psychologist, was a psychologist, said that every great psychologist eventually becomes a sociologist. Because eventually you figure out that you can't understand human behavior unless you think about the situation. Well, again, it's a very alluring and tempting endeavor to parse out everything into tiny little compartments and we'll study these things in silos. And it's easier to manage, but what you really lose sight of is that nothing is unrelated to the other thing. Right. It's an enormous soup. So the notion that you could even say one piece of it is what percentage of the person or nature versus all these binary boxes are for our convenience. They're not real. Right. And we have these little brains, honestly. Right. And we're flesh and blood. So we have limits. But it's like so deep and so profound. You know, your camera has portrait mode and everyone looks great in portrait mode. They look better, right? Because you come in in this like high definition. And then in portrait mode, the background is suppressed, gently blurred. And it turns out like that is how the human brain works. You always focus on the person. You know, you want to talk about Michael Phelps? You don't think like, where did he live? How close was the pool? Who was on the team? Tell me more about these things. For his parents. Who are his parents? Like, what did they do? I mean, you might eventually get there. Bill Gates, he goes to the only private school in America that has its own mainframe. In a time where people are paying exorbitant amounts to be on a computer for a half hour, he had unlimited access. Right. He's Bill Gates, but also he needs that. And by the way, a great headmaster. I think I know that school. Is it California or Washington? Washington. It's like a elite private school. Yeah, but very special. Like the right ethos, I think. Yeah. Right. And if I'm recalling the right conversation, the headmaster of the school that Bill Gates went to said that the job of adults is to watch with hawk-like concentration, but with childlike curiosity. What a young person is doing to see a little girl like twirling around and being like, how about gymnastics? So he was in a situation. I think the profundity of that that we go through life, and we don't want to know who Duck Shepherd is. When people Google you, they want to know about you. But the Googling is usually not like, tell me about everyone and everything around him. That thing that he did on Tuesday, I want to know why he did it because of what was going on. Usually they want to know why you did what you did on Tuesday, because of you. It is because of you, but it's both. But nothing's really because of you. Nothing's only because of you. Yeah. Yeah. So we have this proclivity. I've been very aware of it lately, which is any character defect we have, any shittiness we have. We have an explanation that will originate in our childhood. Yeah. Our mother went bankrupt 12 times. Yeah. I was traumatized when I was five. Yes, and that's why I'm hyper vigilant, and I overreact to this. Yeah. Now, everything great about me, I figured out how to do. Right. You never hear someone blaming any of their positives stuff on their context or their parents or anything. Yeah. But all the bad shit has a really clear explanation. Right. So that's what the situation is. The whole thing is all equal. What I would say is everything is both. And yeah, we can edit out the situational details for our victories, but we shouldn't. But profanity, it's like almost philosophical. It's like, oh, yeah. And so, therefore, if I want to succeed, I need to be in places and with people who make me successful. Okay. Sure. But I do think it's deeper than that, because when you're in a relationship with somebody, and you understand them, as everything they do, say, feel, it is a function of who that person is, their character, their mindset, but it's also a function of, like, literally every trivial detail of their situation. It's like a figure-ground shift. And if you can keep it, because again, I think our brain goes into portrait mode and it's like, okay, wait, back to DAX and his story. You know, if you can keep the backstory somehow in focus, then it is a more human and complete way to understand people. You know, in some ways, like these two books, right, 10 years apart, they are a set. I mean, one is about the inside game of how to not necessarily be only oneself, because I, as you know, don't believe in oneself, but I do believe that there are some selves we like more than others. And there is an inside game of, like, how to think, and the Buddhists actually have a lot to say about, like, how to think about the world, how to think about your goals. And there is an outside game, and this second book is about that outside game. It's like, okay, now I'm going to look around me, I'm not going to look in her, I'm going to look out her, I'm going to audit. Situational agency, which is this great time set. Situational agency. You present. It can't be a trilogy, because that's inside and outside. There's, like, nothing. Well, that's kind of it. How have I come up with another? Yeah, I tried. Because I have enjoyed your previous work, I enjoy them for the way you construct them. I enjoy them for the antidotes that are included, but you may or may not remember, my criticism of you has constantly been in the condom in narrative self versus experiential self. I think you're way too heavy on it with the narrative self. And I don't think you should be giving people tools necessarily to try to achieve all this greatness. Why? Because I don't think there's anything there when you reach it. I think it's a complete, it's a fool's errand. It's a fool's errand. Like, I can get you there faster, but you'll get to nowhere. Guess what? Yeah. As soon as you become the CEO, guess what? You're going to be fucking miserable. Let me just break it down for you. I know. But I have a theory of happiness, and I don't think you're going to disagree, but maybe you will actually, right? So here's the thing about happiness. I want to say that you're right, that when you arrive at the destination of CEO, or you arrive at the destination of, like, tenured professor, or you arrive at the destination of, like, famous celebrity or author, whatever, right? Like it's hard to say it loud enough. This is not happiness. You don't get there and feel happy. But here's why I think that is, as a psychologist, we have emotions. The motions are positive when we are approaching our goal. Not when we've arrived, and not when we arrived five minutes ago or five years ago, right? We're almost there. We're getting there. That's happiness. So then you could say, well, what's the prescriptive recommendation then? So if upon arrival, you're disappointed, I don't know any other way to live. Look, why are you doing this? Although I agree with you that that sweet spot is, like, where it's, oh my God, I'm going to touch it. Yeah, exactly. Right? If you could live there, that would be delightful. I don't think one can live there. No. I think the other way to happiness is to actually enjoy the process. Correct. And that is my life mission. That is what I want to say. But you know what? The process includes having a goal. So that's where I think we recently agree, right? No. I don't agree. No, you don't think the process has to have a goal. How else do you do it if we don't have a goal? I happen to live with an example. Now, I'm not that way at all. I'm goal-oriented. You don't have me. Okay. Okay. I'm very goal-oriented. Are we going to give, like, a counter-example to you? The one anomaly in that goal-oriented life is this show. We had no fucking goal other than we wanted to chat with people because we enjoyed chatting. That's the goal. That's the goal. That's the goal. That's the goal. I enjoy the activity. We didn't think it would make any money. Better. Do you have any goals? Yes. It's changed so much. It started like that. But with success, a lot of other stuff came, a lot of other goals. Distractions, I would say. I think we've had to keep finding our way back. But you know what? I think this is a goal. I just took some. Hmm. Yeah. Did it feel best right before it hit your lips? Yeah. The dopamine was released. Yeah. Now I've already had this. Okay. You know what a goal is? A desired state of the world. If you want to tell me that for this podcast, it could be anything and you'd still love it, then I would concede some real estate here. But there are episodes that you like more than others and you have goals. You have a desired state of armchair expert. And therefore to me, that's a goal. That's ambition. It's not like a certain number of listeners. It's not necessarily an external validation. Already we're structuring as binary and that's already where we're fucked up. So it's not like you do have a goal or you don't have a goal. It's this spectrum of how goal driven you are and how process driven you are. And you're trying to slide this thing to where you have peace, right? And for me, peace is when I'm far further on the spectrum that's about process. You cannot be devoid of goal. That's what I'm suggesting. Right. That's the only thing I want to say. Yeah.
you know, the journey is the destination, but without a destination, there's no journey. That's the only thing, right? Maybe it's trivial to say that. - Again, I think we should reject that. It's one or the other. I think it's just like this long spectrum. Even my criticism of your stuff, sometimes I've been like, it's too heavily on the side of the spectrum of like, get the 4.0, get into the school. - Right, like, make that the West point. - 'Cause guess what? You're writing them out. All the examples you have in your book, they're so fond, they're great. They're the people who reach their goals. And they've left out the 99% of competitors that did all that stuff and they didn't get to those schools. So is that trash? - Okay, let me process this because I think a good response is like not a great response. Let me say back what you're saying and make sure I understand it. You're like, love the work and slash butt. - This isn't new, I said this to you last time. - I have a terrible memory. - That's okay, I got a good one. - Oh my gosh, it reminded me. So what you're saying is in your own experience too, right? As somebody who has achieved some things and maybe this is probably whatever. You're not saying that human beings not have goals, but you're saying that when you spend all of your energy and when you put all of your chips on the goal mark and then you're not putting any of your attention, your energy, hanging your hopes on the process, right? How to feel? Did you have fun today? How was that for you? That's a mistake. That's what you're saying, right? And when you like, annoyed the Michael Phelpses and you say like 28 Olympic medals. - Those are so inspiring. - Yeah, but you're like, maybe you miss the most important part of the story, which is the process. - If you are suffering to get to the goal and then guess what? The goal upon achievement doesn't feel like it should. I say that's a bad fucking strategy in life. - You know, I'm trying to curse less. - Okay. - It's not helping 'cause you're in my situation right now and wow, I'm gonna drop the F-bomb. - Yeah, yeah, you're invited to. - Probably you're okay to drop the F-bomb with. - Yeah, and I'm trying to be more like PG. - Why? - For what goal? - I don't wanna offend. - Nobody that listens to the show as offended by swear words, they could have never gotten as far. - Yeah, that's true. They're not listening. - All right, I don't know Michael Phelps, by the way. I wrote about Michael Phelps because I interviewed his coach and I studied his mom 'cause I wanted to study his situation, right? I knew Michael Phelps was gritty. There's no better poster boy for grit than somebody who swims 365 days a year for 20 years, but I wanted to write about a situation. I wanna use Michael Phelps and what little I know about his journey, which has not been a linear trajectory necessarily, like yes, all the medals, but as you know. - Massive depression, by the way, following at all. - Substance used, right? I'm just like public things, right? As I told you, I didn't interview him, so I only have public knowledge. He retired as you probably know, and then he unretired, and he unretired before his last Olympics. And this I know from just talking to Bob Boeman, right? So again, studying the situations of successful people. So Bob is his second father, right? So Bob gets his text message or whatever. Michael wants to go out to dinner. He's like, okay, something's coming because Michael had retired, right? So Bob was coaching, swimming, but he wasn't coaching Michael Phelps. In that conversation where Michael told him that he wanted to unretire, Bob's account is that he had come to a reckoning of why he wanted to swim, and he had come to a different understanding of the goals. By the way, he still wants to win gold. - He's gonna do it. He wants to be the fastest in the water. - I guess to your point, it was a shift in the motivation. And I do think, I can't put words in his mouth. I can't say like he had a shift to the process versus the goal itself. That would be to lead, 'cause I'm not Michael Phelps, and I can't guess, but I know what you mean. As somebody who's had some success in her own field too, I know what you mean about, you know, you get to Zana-do and there's no paradise. And the reason I think goals are important, and you're right to like single out on Michael Phelps, then it's just sort of at least imply that the reason why this person is not worth these, because they got the goal and not because of the process. - We're not horny for process. - We are not horny for process. I can't say horny by the way. That's on my list of approved words. (laughing) So there's this professor named Doshan Wang at Northwestern, and he got really obsessed with fourth place finishers at the Olympics. And he had this hypothesis that when you're in fourth place, he gives you a lot of motivational kick, and if you place fourth, you get nothing. If you place third, you're on the podium. The third place where I was like, oh my God, I'm on the podium. - Almost didn't get here. - The silver medalist or God, I was so close to gold. But his question was not about the third place, he was like, what happens when you place fourth? And so he was really obsessed with it. And basically, I'll tell you it's finding, but that's not the point. The finding is that the fourth place finishers actually do better than the third place finishers as like future unfolds. But the thing that I wanna say is he couldn't find the footage. - Who was fourth? - He was a lot of research. I mean, he had to do a lot of work. So if you're not gonna study Michael Phelps as a case study of someone who had a lot of grip but also had a great situation and say you wanna study the fourth place finisher and the 400 I am in the 2024 Olympics. You can hunt him down, you can like research them. I think you're right that if you only focus on the goal, you're chasing the morning dew 'cause when you get there it'll be gone. But also I think human beings will always chase goals. Four year olds will always make sandcastles. When I said like, I think this is a goal. I have a desired future state that is to like raise this to my lips. That's a goal. Maybe it's so deep in my DNA that I can't get it out. It's that I think people are ambitious even though you know that when you get to a certain rung in the ladder it's not like anything changes but we're always on a ladder. It's just the nature of human nature to be on a ladder. - I don't think enjoying the process can happen unless you've achieved the goal. You have to have done the closing in the first. - This is like chronological, right? Like first you get the goal. Then you realize, oh, it didn't really do the thing. Then you go back and then you're like, okay. Exactly the Michael Phelps thing you're saying is he did it. He got it and then after he's like, oh. - I don't use that as a sure way. - But you're sort of like, he had to go through that while I was right-of-passage. - Yes. - Okay, I started it and I didn't finish it. So I admitted that I am very goal oriented. I'm like you. And if I wasn't forced to live with someone who happens to be an example, I don't think I would believe it existed. I am a lucky product of this unique situation where I was in which is she never tried to get famous. She never tried to make a lot of money. She started singing and she has an obsession that she thinks she can make this noise and she worked at it endlessly. And then she got it and she's a mimic. And then the place she could go do that was in the singing musical theater thing. And she loved being around all the people and she's just really good at it. And she really just ended up in all these places without ever setting out to be in them. And it was through loving the process of the thing she does. And so I've witnessed it and I know it exists and I think if I didn't live with her, I would reject that it exists. - You'd be like, I don't believe it. - I don't believe it. - That's a theory. - I'm telling you, I wouldn't believe it. - Also, there's nothing worse than having no goals. I think you would agree. - Yes, like a state of apathy. - A state of apathy? So it's like existential angst. Like on we, I don't know where I'm going. Having a port of destination is a hell of a lot better than being like, I have no idea. - Adrift is a pajor. - Adrift. Yeah, adrift? Yeah, we agree. - Adrift is negative, right? - Okay, we would agree that. Whatever level of commitment or however tightly you want to hang on to like this goal, this particular, or even if you say, I'm really all about process, right? I love how singing makes me feel. So I'm going to do it. And I'm not even quote unquote going to see what happens. I'm literally just going to like do it. - Yeah, I'm going to keep doing it. - I still contend that the situation you're in is important because I don't know that everybody who is process oriented is equally happy, right? So regardless of where you fall on this as you say, continuum, right, of how goal directed am I versus how process directed I am, I think to me, the reason why I nearly killed myself to write another book and the reason I say to you like, I don't think there's another, is this is the missing piece. And you know what, Dax, I wouldn't have written this book if somebody else had written it. I was hoping somebody else had for a general audience because-- - You don't like the process of writing a book. - It was not the funnest thing to do, it was harrowing and I don't think I'm going to live as long because love the years I shaved off my life. But you know the reason why I don't think there's a book about this is that the inside game like, oh, you know, your mind said, I think it's more accessible. This is exactly what we don't think about. We are not aware of the water we're swimming in. We're just only aware of how hard we're swimming. So whether your process oriented primarily or goal oriented primarily or however you want to think about that, I think you arrived to the same conclusion. At least I do. And you should be aware of where you are. I mean, you are married to somebody. You probably can't even imagine what it's like not to be, but it's like a great fucking situation, right? - The only way I would have learned, some of the things I've learned is being forced to witness someone live that way. - Just to know that like, there is another DAX. Like, you know, DAX has many selves, but the DAX that you are in this relationship sounds, I mean, it's so silly to be talking to you about your many selves because you're here and you can speak to yourselves. I can speak to myself like Angela Duckworth in this situation. I often have said that the universe rolls out it's carpet for me. I'm extremely fortunate. But if you say, oh, you've had some success, which I'm fine, I don't have to be falsely humble, but I can tell you some of it was because I am an incredibly hard worker. - Yeah. - And a lot of it is that I have been mentored more than anybody I know. I get to work with really honestly the very best people in my business, right? - You're like a writer at the New Yorker. - Yes, exactly. - You go down the hall to bounce an idea of somebody and then when you see the writing product and then there's a buy line, all I want to say is that when people sign the buy lines of their life narratives and there's one line and then you write your name on the cover of the book and you put your name on your CV. It's really you and your situation. Some of us have better situations. So I've had an incredible situation. But I think if you don't pause and say like everything that Dax is is partly because he's married to Chris and like,
you know, he's working with Monica, he has this producer. It's just that this silhouette that we wanna cut out, when I was little, not that little, but teenage little, I would draw apples, like I had this obsession with painting apples, and I would always paint the apple on a white background, partly 'cause I never got to understand how to paint background, which is its own skill. But I have now dozens of these old watercolor paintings of apples and the apples are great. But here's what I would say about this, if I could, you know, go back to my like 18 year old self, it's fine to only paint apples on a white background, many paintings are like that. But if you see life, and you see cutouts of people, and you're not factoring in the situation, I just think you misunderstand, like why is that person doing this, tell me more about this person, and tell me more about everyone and everything around them. That's the only question I would want to get asked. - Right. (upbeat music) - Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your teeth before walking into a meeting. You smile that six people in the hallway. Confidently, full teeth. You felt great about it until you caught your reflection and realized you'd been carrying a piece of spinach like an accessory sense lunch. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. You could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability Allstate, North American insurance company, and affiliates North Brook Illinois. (upbeat music) - I want to go through part by part now. - Okay. - Great had a very psychological point of view. - Yes. - Psychology. - A very interior point of view. - Human centric, right? And then through this conversation, you start broadening your field. You're willing to consider that, yeah, socialize. - I'm like opening the aperture. I'm like listening to the sociologist who says like, "Do this." - Start the book with a story about you and your mom. - Yeah. - Can you tell us that story? I think there's a reason you started with that. - So five or so years ago, I'm in the Atlantic Ocean with my mom. Why is that? We're snorkeling. Who takes their 86-year-old mother snorkeling in the Atlantic in retrospect? And the moment I hit the water, I realized that was really the worst decision I had ever made. So I put my mom in a losing situation, which is like, we were in the Atlantic Ocean. We are not off the shore a little bit. We had taken a 45-minute boat ride. - You're on an island originally? - We were in Miami, then we left Miami, and then we went into the Atlantic for 45 minutes. So you know, we could see land, but 45 minutes by boat is like, you're not swimming to shore. The winds are whipping that day. The current is heaving. The reason I knew that this was a tragic situation is that I could barely keep up. Basically, if you don't fight the current, you're getting swept behind the boat in the wrong direction of where you're supposed to be snorkeling. So my mom basically aspirates the sheet and hails water, I think in whatever panic. So both lungs, and you know, the thing is, you just rapidly lose consciousness. - That's comforting, actually. - It's actually quite peaceful. Her memory, she was like, and then I just don't remember anything, but she doesn't remember struggling. So I swim to her side. I realize that she's unconscious, and I do what I've done my whole life, which is I just try as hard as I can to swim or to safety. Why start your book with a harrowing story about your mom? To me, the metaphor of the ocean, it is your situation. It is everything in around you. And you know what? You can fight all you want. You can use willpower and grit. But if you are in a losing situation, your situation just like swallows your efforts whole. That is the reason I started. And you know, happy ending, the situation changed. I don't think I would have started it with the-- - It was really hard. - Yeah, like the downer of luck. - And then my mom is, yeah. - Climb out of, yeah. - That would have been it. Lots of problems that would have ensued. So I stopped trying harder. I mean, my whole life I got everywhere by trying harder. - It was the trick you depended on. - The problem with having one trick, the problem with people who are really gritty is that that is the only trick they learn. They're like, you know what? I'm gonna wake up earlier. - Because it would be shameful. - Because we are humiliated. And it's like the one pillar of your self-esteem gets like kicked out. So in that moment, maybe out of just desperation, and maybe when your physical circumstances are like that, you don't have shame because you're just like, oh wait, this isn't working. So I stopped trying harder, and I started treading water. And I just tried to change the situation. So I signaled for help. The snorkeling instructor of a nearby boat, why our own snorkeling instructor did not like notice us. That is a whole, that's not a whole other story. It's just a mystery. But they came to our aid and then CPR, ambulance. - Longest boat ride of your life back to shore. - But right back, you know, my mom's like, oozing blood like out of all of her work. - Oh my God. - It's a miracle. It was a, it was around Christmas. It was like Christmas miracle. She lived. Happy ending, I think, has a lesson. And the lesson is that trying harder is not the only trick you can have. Grit is great, but grit is not enough. - It's sometimes the solution. - It is sometimes the solution. - Yeah. - But who among us would not benefit from saying, before I like kick as hard as I can, and put my full-throated effort into whatever I'm doing? Who among us wouldn't benefit from like, who's the best mentor I can have to like coach me on this? Like, what's the best therapist? Who should I be collaborating with? How do I get a team around me? I guess that's for me personally, why the revelation of the power of the situation was so fundamental because I had gotten so far on the inside game. I was ignoring all the things that do make a difference. And maybe also because I was lucky. But, you know, there comes a time in life, at least for me, where luck and grit were not enough. - Well, grit is also an illusion of control. - Same more, what do you mean by that? - Having grit makes you feel like, I'm in control of the situation. With my grit, with my work ethic, I will eventually get what I want because I have this thing. That's not always true. - Yes, but it gets you so far. - It gets you so far. - You have all of this mileage where you're like, it worked today. - You have the evidence, right? - But at some point, you're in a situation, you're like, oh, I'm out of my limits. - Like, broadly true. When people have something that works for them, they do it more and it does become the way that you survive, the way you manage things. And as my physical therapist said, what happens to people's bodies is that they have some compensation, right? Like, you know, they're like kind of favoring their left tip because their right tip is weak. And then that works and works and works until it doesn't. And I think trying harder, it worked until it didn't. And I think only by life, and that wasn't the incident, that was more of a true parable. But professionally and personally, I think I found myself not getting personally or professionally where I wanted to be through just trying harder. So it was like, the ocean currents just like, finally slapped me in the face. - Yeah. - But I think because it worked for so long, I was like, doing it. - Yes. - Let's talk about Leon Martjand. Is that how I say his name in Bob Bowman? - So Leon Martjand, I think, is a great example of what I want to cause situational agency. It's not that he didn't have a great situation, but he had the agency the sense that he could improve a situation by his own choice, right? Because I think situations can be coded as like, that which you cannot control. Leon Martjand was swimming. He is the son of two Olympic swimmers. He was in Toulouse, France. He had a very good coach, but it was the local organization. He knew that his situation could be improved because he knew that people like Michael Phelps were training on teams where everyone was trying to make the Olympics, where there was not a small team, but a large team of trainers and equipment managers, and of course, a coach like Bob Bowman. So he writes Bob Bowman in email. And he says in so many words, I'd like to come to Arizona State University, moving from Toulouse, France to Tempe, Arizona, changing a culture, changing a team, changing his direct mentorship. And also, by the way, and I know it sounds trivial, but changing his physical situation. So Arizona State University has a great setup for swimming, like three outdoor pools. It rains 15 days in the entire year. - Are they the number one college in swimming? - No, I think it's UT Austin, because that's where Bob Bowman now-- - Oh, okay, okay. - And I think that's not coincidence. So Bob says yes, and Leon says yes, because I think even after writing him that email, there was some ambivalence, and he sat down with his parents, and they said, "Don't overthink this, go." So he moves, and within two years, he shaves like nearly nine seconds, off of his best time in his best event, which was the 400 individual medley, right? So 100 meters of each of the four major strokes on swimming. Within two years, he shaves off that time, and he shatters Michael Phelps' last-standing world record. And I'm not saying that because goals are important, or that everybody needs to win an Olympic medal, but I am saying that because I think if you try, as hard as you can, in a given situation, it may not be the progress that you can see when you try as hard as you can in a better situation. And you can use Leon as an example, because it's the same person, right? It's the same person, the same grit, the same talent, but he's changed his circumstances. - Yeah, it's the old adage like to get better, you have to play people better than yourself. If he's the best swimmer in France, try harder, what? - How? - Yeah, I'm winning. - Apparently in swimming, and in many sports, your Pacers, who's in the lane with you? Like who's behind you? The epilogue of the Leon Martian study is not only did he break that world record, the next Olympics, which is to say, the next Olympics under which he had been coached by among others, Bob Bowman. He won four gold medals and was the most individually decorated Olympian of the Paris Olympics. And he has said that it was his situation. He says, "When you see a person swimming in the lane, there couldn't be anything more solitary, but what you don't see are all the people who are metaphorically in the lane with them." - Yeah. - And all I want to say to people is, A that is true, Mb.
you don't have to consider those as given. That's the simple message. Break down the three-box parable because I think this is fascinating and I think we're probably all would assume the order of events is different than the actual order of events. So how do we even come to this whose concept is it and how did he prove that? This idea is very important. I think you can understand all of human behavior. We were talking about diction, we talked about winning gold medals, you can talk about painting, any behavior you want to understand, you can understand by reverse engineering it using three boxes. And what I want to say is the third box is the behavior itself. You're like, why is that person doing what they're doing, saying what they're saying, feeling what they're feeling? Why are they like such a pain in the back? Or why are they showing up early, staying late and trying so hard? So behavior, you can put in box three. What's in box two? Behavior comes from your thoughts. This to me is the cognitive revolution. This to me is like modern psychotherapy. When someone is depressed, when they're eating too much, when they're eating too little, when they're trying hard, when they're not trying hard, there are thoughts that precede those actions and feelings. They may not be entirely conscious, but they are what drive us. And when you try to understand someone's behavior, including your own, you cannot understand it and sometimes this requires therapy without tracing them back to the thoughts that made that behavior rational. Okay, so that's two boxes. Why is it called the three boxes model? The first box is the situation. You should ask yourself, "Okay, I had that thought. Where was I? Who was I with? What were my circumstances?" Because if you don't get that right, then you only start working at box two or use willpower at box three. I'm just not going to be angry. I'm just not going to drink. I'm just not going to procrastinate. I would say put yourself in a situation where you're going to have the thoughts you want, then you're going to act the way you want. Because sometimes people are like, "I'm going to substitute this behavior with another behavior." I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to take a walk instead of eating the afternoon." That's not a bad idea, but I would say what would be a situation where you'd want to take a walk, like put your sneakers by the door, set a calendar reminder, make an appointment with a friend, set up a situation, go to a location where you like the view. Yeah, exactly, like make it pleasant. But the revolution is not mine. You asked me where this model came from. It's not my model. So about halfway through my career, I met this psychologist named James Gross. He's at Stanford and he studies emotions. And for a very long time, James said, "People do a lot of things to regulate their anger or their sadness, their anxiety." It's just like a laundry list. And he said, "You know what? If you understand how emotions are generated, then you can understand how they can be regulated." You are in a certain situation. That situation gives you certain thoughts. Those thoughts give you certain emotions. That gives you a blueprint or a roadmap for how you can regulate those emotions. Because you can change your situation, or you can change your thoughts, or you can just directly change your emotions. And his conclusion was before meeting me, if you're going to try to regulate that anger, you don't want to smash a jar against the wall. If you don't like that box three, then you want to go all the way to the beginning. Begin at the beginning, right? Begin at the mouth of the stream. When I met him and he was explaining this to a large audience, well, a small audience at Yale, like it was an academic meeting. It was a cold day in November. The year was 2011, I think. And he just put up on a PowerPoint slide, this like extremely simple model. He was talking about emotion and I just saw all of human behavior. I was like, wait, this explains everything. Why is this person late to work? What were they thinking? Okay. And what was the situation that initiated those thoughts? So the whole idea is to reverse engineer everything you do back to its beginnings, back to the situation. And then to go forward again and say, like, well, where do I want to be? And then start at the mouth of the river. We have the sense of being sentient beings and being like goal directed, right? Like I walk through the store. I want to get my notes, I'm logical and I'm intentional. But so much of human behavior is not top down, like intention, but bottom up reaction. You know, we eat and drink when it's just there. Like so much is sort of like, why were you thinking that? In fact, one of the people that I talked to and like summarize very briefly, like a lifetime research, he studied addiction, his name is Chef Seagull. And he says the realtors will say like location, location, location. And if you're dealing with addiction, relocation, relocation, relocation. And the reason is is that we're so stimulus driven. Like I know we don't like the idea that we are responding in automatic ways to the triggers in our environment. But that's just the way it is. And it's not for certain class of people. It is for everyone. And maybe the triggers are different. But if you recognize, and if you are humble enough to recognize that around certain people, you start talking certain ways, like I'm in LA. It's been 24 hours. And now you're on a GLP one. I'm like, you know how many scales? I'm like, not giving like in this hotel, there are scales everywhere. I'm like, wait, do people in LA constantly weigh them? That's why. I get to be on a GLP one before I get on the plane back to Philadelphia. I walk by this clothing and like me who shouldn't care because I'm a professor. They can't fire me for not having a fashion sense. And now all of a sudden, I want to wear Prada. This situation is changing me. I know. That's true. I just had this kind of really fun and unique example of this happened to me, which is I spent time a couple of weeks ago in Nashville with one of my very best friends that lived in LA. We hung out for maybe 15 years. And then he moved back to Michigan. So for the last 16 years, he's been in Michigan. I see him occasionally. But he was, he came down to Nashville. So he's been now back in Michigan for 16 years. And he was saying like, am I my fattest point. And I was like, uh-huh. And I'm like, listen to this. And we're so close. And we love each other so much. Like there's no way I could offend him or make him feel insecure. But I said, what's wild about you saying this right now? To me, is it points out? It illustrates so clearly how much were products of our environment? Because you're upset that you're overweight. And to me, let me ask you, do you know a lot of people on GLP ones? He goes, no, no, what are those? I'm like, you know, you've seen the commercial Mojourno, ozampic. He's like, I guess I see this. Well, what is it? And I like explain what it is. Am I go, but what's even more interesting to me? Scottie is like, how'd you not left LA? I wouldn't be telling you what a GLP one is. And if what you want is to lose weight, like, dude, they did it. Like you can get this fucking shot. And he's like, oh my god. Really? He starts writing it down. I'm like, I'm like, no, I mean, not really like he's a salesman. He's out with other people. He's not in this box one. He's in a different box one. He's not in the same context as me. And he's a very smart person. He was very up to speed on everything in his culture. Yeah. And I don't know something about some bar view from a different box one situation. It used to be in the same culture. And we used to have all the same shared knowledge. And I was like, oh, this is a really fun illustration of you having gone back for 16 years. And by the end of the trip, he's like, okay, so I did GLP. What ultimately? But, you know, it was a perfect example. Okay. I fell down this little rabbit hole studying this psychologist nobody's ever heard of. And I had never heard Roger Barker. He's this psychologist who coined the term behavior settings. He started off by thinking that people were gold directed and so forth. And he would actually follow individuals around for their entire day, trying to understand like why Monica is different from Dax. And what is inside Monica that is different from Dax. But what he came to was a conclusion that he didn't expect, which is like Monica behaves because of the behavior setting in which she is. Like she's responding to this. Yes, Monica is Monica. She's an individual. But when you're in a drug store, you behave drug store. When you're in a church, you behave church, right? And when you're in Montana, you behave Montana. And when you're in Wisconsin, you behave Wisconsin. He tells a story, not entirely different, I think, from your friend, which is he was like, for example, I don't like pork. But I moved to this part of the country where it's just the only thing that everyone eats. Pork in every form, ham, bacon, pork chops, sausage. And now that's what I eat, not only just physically because that's the only thing around, although that's part of it. So if you visit L.A. and you spend a few days here and you want to be this way, move to L.A. because you will. And if you don't like it, don't move to L.A. Because when you get here, you're going to change. Yeah, that's fair. So the idea that like your environment shapes you, I think, is deeply uncomfortable for people. It seems to threaten agency in autonomy. Exactly. And you know this guy, Roger Barker, that I got obsessed with. I mean, I went around, I would ask my colleagues, have you taught Roger Barker? Who? I went to intro psych books. I like went to the index. Skinner's there, Freud's there, Danny Kahneman's there, but Roger Barker is nowhere. And I was like, wait, this guy at the height of his fame and the height of his influence, he was the cat's pajamas. Why did he fall? Maybe not from grace, but fall from view. So what happened was the world sort of was with him. There was like, oh, behavior settings. This is revolutionary. If you want to be a certain way, change your setting. And then the world got kind of disenchanted. Now this is decades ago in the history that nobody's reading. So the idea that the situation has power over you, I think actually was at odds with our core notion of agency. They rejected it. They're like, I don't like this story that when you go to the drugstore, you behave drugstore, and you go to the church, you behave church. But the last words that Roger Barker wrote were that when you recognize the power of the situation, when you recognize the power of the environment to shape you, now you really have power because you just changed the environment first before it does that. You're still responsible for it, which is what you want. Yes, yes, yes. He was like, you know, you're changing your context. See, not less agency, but he was not successful. And that is why nobody gets taught Roger Barker. Yeah. Let's talk about GLP ones because they're in the book. Yeah. I don't like a huge fan. Yeah. Well, every doctor is. But not everyone is, I think. No, no, no. And it hits the core. I'll be talking. I'm not going to name names. I know an older couple. The husband's done it. The wife isn't going to do it. And what you point out is like, this thing about willpower is that it signals we believe people's character. Right. Okay. So if
- If you lose 20 pounds, how'd you do it? You know, the old fashioned way, it was really hard work. I, you know, changed my diet. - Right, it takes for two years. - Yeah, it was really hard, by the way. I hated doing, like, and the more you hate it, the more, like, points you get, right? Then people wanna give you, like, a 10 out of 10 on character, on, like, moral fiber, right? Strength of will. If you say, "How'd you lose a 20 pounds?" Like, "Oh, GLP ones?" I don't know now in culture. - It's moving quickly, think of. - I think now, the things are changing. - At the beginning, we're right at the forefront of what we're talking about, and yeah, at the beginning, I was always going like, "Why would anyone be mad?" - No, at the beginning, it's insane. - At the beginning, I was mad when you were on the side of what? - I was like, "This is bad, GLP ones are bad. People shouldn't be taking them. I had all these reasons, but by the way, I am on one now." - You were on one, yes. - Were you heavier? - No, but I started taking it for cholesterol. - You are seriously on them. - Yeah, I am. - I'm on a microdose. And it started because of cholesterol, but we kept having all these people on these doctors that I do respect. - Yeah. - Sanjay Gupta, he's like, "This is the biggest miracle for us." - Well, Eric Topal was the main one for me. I agree with him on pretty much everything. And he was like, "I think eventually, "this is going to be over the counter. "I think this is something. "Everyone is going to be on. "It does all this stuff for dementia." - Antibiotics, vaccines, and this thing. - It's like the three miracles in there. So I was like, "Okay, I will try it. "I absolutely love it." - And we have a doctor, we are in a study in the doctor of strongly urges here 'cause their cholesterol is so fucked up. So you also get a doctor urging you to do it. - Yeah, it does a lot for brain markers. And so I got on it and then my numbers are amazing now. - Right, so you don't have a cholesterol problem. Can't you change anything else? - Well, it changed my view on having staunch views. (laughing) - She's just, she was on GLC1. - Yeah, she might be. - Because I'm having staunch views of any kind. - Yes, on having any like moral high ground. - Because that's how it started. - It's not just GLC1, so there's research that shows that when people take, for example, anti-depressant medication, right? - Yes. - Like, you know, and there's this kind of like, "Oh, well, you know, you could have done it the hard way." And that would be the honorable way. - That you're cheating somehow. - You're cheating. It's lesser than, right? That one, especially the anti-depressant one, makes me so mad because there are so many people who are like trying to white knuckle it. And guess what, they're failing, they're depressed, right? And they're not getting undepressed by doing all these things. And it's like, "You can take this, it's chemical." - I have the same thing with people who white knuckle sobriety without, "Hey, I'm like, congrats, you're doing it." But you're fucking missing out on everything that's fun about it. - You know, alcoholism without AA, and white knuckling obesity without GLP1s, and white knuckling depression without over the counter and changing the chemical. - So I met this physician named Aaron Carroll, who brings GLP1s and anti-depressants into one story and it's his story. So he was very successful across the board, right? You know, a decorated author position, by the way. - Yeah. - The person who was telling other people, like, "You know, you might want to consider medication." Himself felt so much shame. He was overweight. His father was overweight. And he said, "You know, I never stopped actually "secretly blaming my father for his weakness of will." And so GLP1s, and of course, prior to GLP1s, anti-depressants come out. And he was very late to taking either of them, even though he needed both of them. He went on vacation and he had like a panic attack and the panic attack led to a fall down a mountain. He hit rock bottom and he had us sort of like, "Oh, well, maybe not figuratively later." - Literally. - Yeah, literally figuratively. They didn't have to airlift him, so maybe it was rock bottom. There was a mountain involved. - It's rare someone's rock bottom and actually includes a rock bottom. - Yeah, like that one. It's like, "Yeah, it's like, and I'd listen." The universe is really like him or the head of the moon. - Like a memo, but I think this resistance, so I wrote about GLP1s because I think getting GLP1s, if you are the kind of person who needs them, is getting situated, right? And the shame of, well, I couldn't change myself, so I changed my situation, is a mistake. I think if we could honor, I mean, we should rate poems to the people who change our situation. Like, why don't we valorize the people who had the courage or the common sense? Why not? You know, when he went on antidepressant medication, and he's not speaking for everyone, but he did talk very openly and right openly about this. He's like, "I'm more engaging. "I'm more engaged. "I'm more optimistic. "I like myself." - Yes. - Right? I don't think that's entirely changed, by the way. I don't think our society has gotten to the point where we're like, "Oh, you need an injection. "You need a pill. "Great, you're getting situated. "I don't think we're there yet." - It's also a cycle, though, because I think people who are depressed, often people who are obese, there's already shame in there. There's shame, which is part of the depression. There's shame, which is part of shame. - That's like leading them to the figures where they're trying to manage an emotion. - Yes, it's hard to parse it all out, right? Because that shame is also stopping the behavior of changing. - They're all feeding each other. - Yeah, and it's like, just try. I'm always like, just try it. You can stop. There is a persistent question, which is why people don't do that. What's your theory? And then I will tell you what sign to think or what's some sign to think? - I think it appears to be the ultimate admission that it beat you. So you're already, let's say you've been trying to lose weight for 20 years, and you have the shame of not succeeding at that. If you are to finally throw up your hand and say, "Fine, I need a GLP one." You are reading that as, well, now I've permanently admitted I could never do it. It's the end of the thing I am a failure and stop. - Yeah, right. - Well, that this thing I fear is now confirmed. I'm a complete failure. I can't do it on my own. I have to have this thing. It's admitting in full capacity my fear that I'm weak-willed and I'm all these things. By doing this, it's an admission that that is true and permanent. - You can sort of live in this sort of like, but maybe I should do it. - Yes, you're living with hope that you'll get out despite all evidence says, probably not. I'm probably not gonna be able to quit drinking what's some help. - But also maybe there's a sadder thing, which is, okay, well, if I do it and it doesn't work, then I'm fundamentally. - You're like a kind of self-handy-capping thing. - Maybe like, I don't want to really try because then if it doesn't work, then I'm broken, I might as well try. - That could be a layer of that. - Much your explanation. - You know, I was gonna bring up status quo bias, but I think that's actually for a different, so status quo bias is like clinging to the familiar. Imagine that you had the financial resources to move. Moving economists say, from ones that code to another, from one city block to another, is probably the single, most highly leveraged thing you can do to change the trajectory of your life. Because when you move, you change your entire situation. You change all the people around you. You change the billboards, the food, the vibe. So the reason why economists like to say this loudly is because people aren't listening, right? Because some people obviously can move places that other people can't. But the status quo bias is that people who should move and can move, don't move. So for example, when you have these moving to opportunity, like when you get vouchers and you actually give financial resources to people, and then you tell them how much better their lives will be, many of them just don't. And that I think is status quo bias. I think that's actually not as relevant to like why are you not taking JLP ones, like clinging to the familiar. I don't know that we have a full explanation of status quo bias itself. I think you're probably right. It's true, we are primates and we are driven by many different drives, including status and esteem. And I do think the sort of like I lost, right? I'm admitting I can't do this on my own. I lost. And guess what? Nothing is more liberating than surrendering ironically. It's so counterintuitive. If you can get someone to try it, right? Like if you can get someone to try that. But until you get them to try it, there's nothing more terrifying. Yes. You bring up Oprah as an example of the two of you. I think I bring up Oprah as several. It's like fell down in Oprah. But they're wait. Yeah, her use of JLP ones. I think Oprah broadcasts this special shame blame and the weight loss revolution, some title like that. And I watched it live. You know, a classic Oprah is a pro. So she had not only in her interviews, but the choreographed documentary. JLP ones, which at the time were fairly new. And I think she was one of the very first celebrities who came out in a very public way and said, I'm taking them. Here's how it's changed my life. And here's why I'm going to continue to take them. Yeah, thank God. The title is like sort of says it all. So the most famous yo-yo dieter in history, who's been shamed and blamed for her weight. I think a lot of people are like, "Tist, tist." You can have a trainer and you can have a, you can have a chat. There's more. How little more protein? Because the reasons they've told themselves, the things that are standing in their way and their excuse, she doesn't have on the table. Exactly. The example of Oprah, first of all, taking JLP ones and saying like, for the first time in her life, she doesn't have food noise. As a low level sort of distraction from all the other thoughts you could have while you're thinking about food, you are perhaps also conducting a meeting or an interview, but just to have that food noise dialed down, right? One of the most reliable effects of JLP ones for people for whom it's working. So the example though is like so much more profound than like Oprah took JLP ones. Now she's a healthier. I think the example goes so deep because I don't have food noise and I've never been attracted to substance use. I don't know what that's like. The idea that you have complete control over what's in you, to me, I want to say you have some control over the situation. You might not think of it that way. I also want to say, maybe we need to semicolon because it is another thought, but I do think it's connected. If we underestimate the power of the situation and the power that we have to control the situation, I think we often overestimate our power to control what's inside.
us. If you have a genetic disposition towards drinking or thinking about food all the time, I cannot understand that. And also, I think we are wrong to blame people for not changing. There is this assumption that Oprah Winfrey should be able to change what's in her head completely. Why? Why? Is there be changing her height? Exactly. Yeah, it can't change her height. It could be literally, right? Exactly. So this revelation that when we blame people for being overweight or we blame them for whatever behavior it is where you're like if they tried harder, the subtext there is the things that are inside you, you should have complete control over. And I just want to say that's not true. No, it's this various distinction between mind and body which doesn't exist. Right. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. I am really sympathetic and I think I'm most interested currently in the people who have been very vocal about body positivity and embracing like your plus-sizedness and some people are even the face of that. I look at them with the most sympathy because I'm like, oh no, now they probably feel like they're betraying their identity if they choose this GOP1 or that they would be somehow contradicting everything they have. And I think some people are stuck because they're like, oh, but I said all that stuff. Now it will be a hypocrite. Right. And now they're going to punish themselves. Now they're going to be like excommunicated from the one group where like to having already been excommunicated from the main group. But then they found their tribe and they were helpful to people and they help people love themselves. And now they're in this really tricky situation. So sometimes when I'm seeing like really famous people that have the means to be on it, do you think that's in the mix? I mean, look, we are not in a good situation in the sort of macro sense. The default settings of the modern world are not with us. You're like what are the only people that I could be like, oh, and there's this evolutionary biologist at Harvard. And you're like, oh my god, I can't wait to see what she says next. Anyway, the evolutionary biologist at Harvard, he's like very famous for this like barefoot running kind of thing. We evolved to like be long distance runners. Basically, I think the idea is like we could outrun our prey. Yes, a deer is faster than us, but we just keep going. So like this is a guy who spends his whole life like studying the evolutionary origins of human nature. And what he would say about obesity is when we blame people, either for being obese or procrastinating or being lazy, he's like, what we have here is an evolutionary mismatch. The modern world is at odds with our DNA. Our DNA are like ed, like do this, like immediate gratification. We can like to test the people who fail to delay gratification, but homo sapiens evolved for immediate gratification, not delayed gratification. So this idea that there should be any shame in taking a drug that is a corrective for a food environment that is a mismatch for every impulse we have. Of course, we need GLP ones. It's like the anti-aircraft battery that we have because we're being assaulted. I had for a long time a chapter in the book, which I will just summarize because it kind of got cut. It was caught our ultra-processed world. You know, like, yeah, there's ultra-process food, which by the way, in addition to putting sugar and fat together for the first time, oh my god, it also is metabolized super fast. It's dissolved to essentially melt in your mouth. For the reward system, the speed at which we get reward is a big part of the intensity of the reward. So not only am I feeling good, oh my god, it's a 10 on a scale from 1 to 5, but it's so fast, right? So the dopamine signal is very sensitive to time. So you've got this ultra-processed food, but so much of the world is ultra-processed, and some of it's not bad. Like, you go watch a movie like the Odyssey and you're like, oh my god, I'm experiencing a spectacle with emotion and color and music and monsters. My ancestors didn't know anything about, but there's nothing really harmful about watching a three-hour bowling film. I think the challenge is that in many dimensions, much of social media is ultra-processed, right? It's like, I'm going to give this to you faster, more colorful, edited, just the highlight reel, more emotion, more drama, and by the way, this guy's hot too. And I think the most of the various part of that is when I learned I can't remember what DACA was in. Maybe we had the guy on to talk about, but the fact that there was a period where when it reloaded, it spun, it took a second, and that was intentional. They're like, it doesn't need to reload. It could happen instantaneously, but the reward system is better if you have that little tiny bit of anticipation, and also the anticipation has to vary. dopamine is released on unpredictability. That's what it does. Yeah, you've got to anticipate it, but then the anticipation's got a very non-stop, or you're dopamine won't work. It's that fucking deep. The thing could just be streamless. Whoa! Danger! You start to feel like you're in a conspiracy, but the reason why this is also relevant is if you're going to just basically accept the default settings of the modern world, you're not going to be a happy, healthy person. You know what the default settings are? They are eat alone. In fact, do almost everything alone. That's another trend, right? You know that goes back about 20 years. That's apparently pre-pandemic, that the time that people spend out of their house, for example, has dropped like a stone, and it's not only that we work alone in our homes. We're like exercising a lot. So I do think that the default situation, the macro situation, does not set us up for progress or goals. And the most important part of what you just said is we are a social primate. We are the most social of all primates. Yeah. And a lion can never be happy by themselves. A leopard can. A tiger is. A chimpanzee would kill itself alone. Out of misery, we have to be with other people. What's your explanation for why over the last 20 years or so, people are spending more and more time by themselves. If it is contrary to our DNA, if it's contrary to our evolutionary heritage, and just like in the moment experience, do you either view have a lay theory of why people are doing exactly the opposite of what's good for them? Because I think it's actually related to the more money you have. The more money you have, the bigger home you have, or people can be in different places. You can have a private jet where you don't have to fly with other people. It's like convenience and money is kind of counterintuitive. But by the way, poor people are spending time alone too. Are they? I mean, if you live in a house with your grandma and your aunt, and it's okay, you're not going to have to fact check this, but I believe that at every socioeconomic status, people are spending more time by themselves than they were previously. Well, social media also is a huge part of that, I think. That's what a lot of social scientists think. Well, again, like all things, they're going to try to say it's one thing and it's not. It's probably 45 things. But yes, you have entertainment now that doesn't require you to go out of the house. If you want to see a movie, you just have to go to a movie theater where you don't have to do that, now it's been streaming on your television or you could mail for the DVDs. We know for the DVDs. Yeah. Right. 20 years ago. I'm going to say yeah. So you didn't have to go out to get the thing you wanted. Delivery food services became more and more commonplace. Now with postmates, you don't need to go to the grocery store, you don't need to go to the restaurant. I think you don't even need to greet the delivery guy. You don't? Yeah, leave it at the door. I deliver food on one of our podcasts. I'm a real Uber driver and I deliver food around L.I. And I was so excited to meet people. I'm like, oh, it might be really fun if someone opens the door and it's me. No one opens the door. Everyone is leaving the door. I'm like, oh, okay, that part of my plan went out the window. But this one's dicier, but I think it is really, really relevant. I think once women went into the workforce in massive numbers, which I agree with, I have two daughters. I want them to not be dependent on a man. But I think once that economic structure changed and women no longer needed men, you see the marriage rates in Manhattan. You can track that. It's like a fucking hockey stick down. The numbers now are like a fifth of what they were in 1980. So no one's married in New York anymore. Well, that's interesting. A lot of people are not married anymore. They do not need to be. You used to have to be married. This is a similar explanation as Monica's, who's basically you're saying what made us social is maybe that we are these social species, but also necessity. Yeah, you need other women. Women were dependent on men, which is not great. I'm not saying that's good, but they were dependent on men. In marriages, we're financial arrangements. So when liberated from the financial necessity of being like in the whatever, like in a home. You don't have to do it. Yeah. But you still need friendship. I mean, I guess I buck up against that a little bit as someone not married, who has a ton of people around. Do you want to be married? Are you planning on it? I mean, depends on the person. If the right person. I'm not opposed. I'm not opposed, but I'm also not doing it unless it's someone additive. I don't know that that speaks for not having friendships around. You add the marriage or the relationship. They come with a group of people. You come with a group of people. You build out this combined thing. It is a fast pass to more people. It is a fast pass to more people by the way, including their families. But I think what I hear is that these is that necessity. So I'm complaining a bit about the default settings of the modern world. And I think we don't want to romanticize like the plague. And when women go to only do one thing, which is serve their husbands. But I do think there is something that is lost in this change from an environment where a necessity brought you together. Well, I was going to say to you remember, I don't remember. But apparently in history books, the communal oven. Right. Not only could you not watch a movie, but like if you go back far enough, you couldn't bake your bread except for the one oven that the whole village had to like pull resources and bring to a certain temperature for like a few hours in the day. But what happens around a bread oven is that you see other people maybe the curse of wealth and the curse of technology is that we can do things that are not good for us. Yes, anyone can be their own.
and unit their own business in their own home, I think that's the driver of it. It's like, we don't need quote, we don't need. - So yeah, it's the lack of necessity. Necessity may be the mother invention, but it is maybe possibly the mother of connection. - And it's led us to solitary lives, and we are social animals, and that's not gonna work. And you see the results of it everywhere you look. - So there is this chapter in the book, which I actually, if I could go back, which apparently I'm not allowed to, I would retightle, I was like, I have a better, there's this chapter I write about peers. That's the chapter I write about AA in, right? 'Cause I'm like, there is no wiser organization than this, and if you want an example of how you cannot solve your problems alone, AA, I chose as the example. - Tell the story of Dr. Bob and Bill W. It's a good one. - So I'll give you my new title 'cause I gonna forget, 'cause I told you I have a terrible memory. It's like, join a group. The subtitle could be like, in other words, don't try to do this on your own, and that is actually related to Dr. Bob and Bill W's. So deliberately, these first name founders of AA, co-founders of AA, because AA, the big book, right, was written by Bill W. The anonymity thing is a whole other conversation, but he would never have created alcoholics anonymous if it weren't for Dr. Bob. So these two alcoholics, both in active struggle, unsuccessfully, it seems, with their addictions. - Again, one, a doctor, one, a stock program. These are not fucking losers. They're not degenerate. - No. - Actually, they were very successful. The idea that these are weak-willed people. - It got through medical school, but-- - It's simply, and by the way, to actually manage a very successful medical career, despite drinking till six in the morning. These two drunks, as they put it, meet each other. And the reason is, I think it was in Akron, Ohio, which is where Dr. Bob was practicing, and Bill W was there on a business trip that was going so-- - Bill had had a little bit of a spiritual awakening in a hospital that he had been in numerous times from his addiction. - Prior to this meeting. - Yes, from his addiction. - He was a spiritual kind of awakening. He's now committed to sobriety. He goes to Akron, Ohio, right on a business trip, and he's starting to get really antsy. He's seeing people at the bar. - And the business trip is going south. He's in the hotel lobby, and just across the lobby, you can hear the ice cubes in the glasses, and the laughter, and he's drawn. And yet, he has had the spiritual awakening, but I think that to me, the epiphany was not in the hospital, where he was like, oh, no. To me, the epiphany was that he needed another alcoholic, 'cause he called to find an alcoholic that he could talk to, and yes, through a series of connections was led to Dr. Bob. I think Dr. Bob's family gave him something like 15, they were very skeptical. Stranger from another state, who apparently also has a shrinking problem, could be any kind of good for Dr. Bob and his shrinking problem. The idea of putting two alcohols together and getting anything other than a disaster. - Yes, yes. - It's a fair thought. - It's like, you know, common sense is just not. So they give him like 15 minutes and ends up being something like all night, right? So these two men finally have in each other, somebody who really understands. - As you point out, it's like, the 12 steps are great. That's not the magic of AA. If they handed that book out on corners, and there was never any meanings-- - Which they practically do, right? It's practically free, you can get it, but that's not the magic. - That's not the magic. - The magic is-- - My father died 28 years sober, he never read that book, but he went to a meeting seven days a week. His whole friendship group was AA. You know what, I followed the thread of the research on AA. AA is very hard to study because it's very hard to be like in the treatment group, you go to AA and in the control group, you don't. 'Cause you can't make the control group not go to AA. And you can't force the people in the treatment group to keep going to AA. So it's very hard to study, but there is, I think he's like the first endowed chair at Harvard for addiction, named John Kelly. And when I followed the breadcrumb trail of the research that was done on AA, because even if you don't have a random assignment or a treatment control, there are still ways of studying it. It takes more statistics, essentially, with all the complications of studying AA, right? I asked him why he studied it. I was like, you could've studied many things. He was like, here's why I studied it. This is the most enduring approach. And I don't know if everyone knows this. Like AA is by far the most enduring and effective treatment compared to any, including pharmacological treatments, right? - Weirdly GLP ones might start getting in the process. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know, but I will put money on the possibly, because when I started studying AA, wasn't because I had a particular interest in addiction, I have not found a structure and invention, a situation that is better for people. - Yeah, I always say I'm so happy, I'm an addict. - Right, because I want to go there. - I want to go there. - Let's go, because we can't really go to AA and like sit on a folding chair. - My thing is, where would you see men be vulnerable in a circle anywhere but this place? - I'm dealing with shit. And by the way, the part where you're like, of service, I actually, after I started studying AA and I like read all this research, and the point I wanted to make actually about five minutes ago was what I think John Kelly's research shows is that, yes, there are many things that go into AA, but one of the final common paths is the change in your social network that the four closest friends that you have are now not drinking. And when you have these emotional connections with people, so I just wanted to like affirm that. But after discovering the magic of AA, I thought to myself, okay, this organization's, what is it like 90 years old? I don't know anything, it's 100 years old. - There's not 100 years. I think 30 is the book, maybe or something. - Yeah, so I think it's like, say 90. Like I was like, well, that's been a long time. And clearly somebody must have seen this model and said, oh, we can do it for the rest of us, right? - Well, they took the model into overeating, they took it into gambling, they took it into sex addiction. - But what about just like people who aren't struggling with it? - So here's I think, I can agree, Mark, because you get hung up on the alcohol piece or the drug piece. But let me tell you, every human being is using something to regulate, that is easy and quick. That's probably not beneficial to them. We're all trying to regulate. And so yeah, I happen to regulate with that. Someone happens to regulate with gambling, someone regulates with sex, whenever it's shopping, whatever it is, with food. And it's like, guys, we all. - Right. - We're all regulated. - You know, there's no us in that. - There's no us in one category. - My chosen method of regulation is more destructive. I have more positive. I still have addictions, and I'm still regulating. But the outcome has less wreckage, right? I work out a lot. - I was gonna say, like, you can be like, oh, I'm a distance runner, but I'm dealing with my emotions this way, if I were gonna write another book, and I swear to God. - Ten years? Monica, death, like writing down in blood. I don't think I will. But if I were, I think there's a very important, so you're like, I'll think of something else other than the inside game and outside game. But I do think there's something deeply true about human nature that does help us understand why we do things that aren't great. I do think that we are built for immediate gratification. Here's a trivial example. When my daughters were growing up, and there were these two cups in the bathroom, and one just by chance would be like a little, I had two cups. I thought two daughters, two cups, whatever. They were from IKEA, they were like a dollar each. It didn't matter. I could have had one cup, you know why? Because only the cup that was a millimeter closer got used. Whenever you go into a bathroom, oftentimes the architects build a paper towel dispenser on your way out. - In between the trash can and the sink. - Yes, and one that's farther away. And you know what, they never have to change the paper towels and the other one, because everyone takes immediate gratification, we take the shorter path, and then we just keep doing what has been feeling good. And I think if there is a lesson in situated, it is that, okay, one thing you have to do, especially now in this modern world, because the default settings aren't great for you, is say, how do I set this up? So that doing the immediately gratifying thing, for doing the obvious thing, for being reactive. - Admitting this is who you are. - Right, but put yourself in the situation. So if the situation is gonna basically shape you, I mean, shape it first. That is the simple lesson. - Yes. - Well, you said, what do we do with people who aren't addicts, right? So I have a group of girlfriends, we do girls dinners. It is so hard to schedule these girls dinners. I mean, it's nearly impossible. Same group of girls, right? - Yes. - Like you have so far six girls. - On the last group text, when I was like, what about this day? This day, this day, and then someone said something, like, well, what if we pick second Wednesday of the month or something like that? And I was like, yes. And people were like, oh, yeah, I don't know. So I don't know my schedule. And I was like, if we don't commit to that. I was like, we have to treat this like it's AA. - Did you say that? - I did. I said, if we're committed to this, you'll schedule around it. You will make it work. - You know, I can't do it on the day. It's in my count. - Exactly. - Every Tuesday of the first of the day. - But we have to treat it. - The reason why you're dying on the cell is like, when did you start this group? Did you start this group? - We've been doing girls and girls for years, but this conversation happened like three weeks ago. - But how did it get started? Tell me about this group. - Well, it's a group of friends from our pod that we had in COVID. - Oh, we not podcast pod. - No, COVID pod. - COVID pod. And we're all best friends. And we have all busy lives. And people have kids and everyone has jobs and whatnot. It's hard. - But I was like, we decide to be committed or we don't. And it has to be treated on the same level as AA is treated with DAX and some of our other friends, which is like, if he doesn't, go, he might die. Okay, get tell me, so this needs to be like that. Okay, so tell me, what is this group for you? Community, and we go, and we share, and we gossip. - The wife's bitch about the husband. - Every wind, and about. - Not married yet, but still right there. - I bitch about, Kristen's husband. (laughing) - The other husband. - No, everyone's going through so much. And sometimes we just laugh the whole time, but often we don't, often someone's crying. It's community. - In this chapter that I could have renamed, like be in a group, don't be alone, or join the team, but chose to call pick your peers. So I was almost done writing it, and I met a surgeon and this group of other surgeons that decided to start this little group. Much like yours, except for they were all male surgeons, so it's not a girl's group, it's a guy's group. - They're all arrogant, continue. - Well, they are all the future surgeons, so if you want to be a stereotype, then you can apply them, but I will say the ones
I met were very nice, but it's a group of I think like five or six of them and they started when you know one of the things about these groups Are you roughly the same age like with like a decade or so this group of surgeons is very similar to yours And by the way, if you ask these surgeons and they're not your age there at the end of their like there's 60s You know, they were like this may have been the most important thing I Ever did and yes, they have a group text thread and yes, they re-rain schedules to have dinners. So when I learned about them I thought to myself I don't sleep with myself on next to my bed check right like I don't have like a lot of junk food The house check so okay great my physical situation is good. I really honestly. I have mentors out the wazoo a lot of the people that you admire I'm like, yeah, I'm the psychologist. I am because I'm okay check but on peers so when I Interviewed these surgeons and I was like holy shit. This is the one thing that you want to tell me that other than making the romantic choice You made this is the one thing that you think made your life go well I looked around and I realized I don't have what you have Monica. I texted. Let's see Wendy cop who runs teacher America Shalini Sharma who runs a big non-profit cousin Mary Egan. She used to be at Starbucks as like head of strategy Like I am attracted to women who are very similarly Like yeah, they're like, you know what they're like and it took us like 45 Yeah to find one dinner, but you know what you've inspired me so like we're do and it does take effort But I do think a little effort goes a long way when you use it to change your situation now your situation includes these girlfriends Yeah, and my situation does not yet include these like high-power women We're due for our second dinner, but I think you've just inspired me to like push through because that effort will pay off I think it does buck the trend because you know what maybe one other reason why in the modern world everyone's doing things asynchronously and Alone is that it's too complicated to synchronize and to coordinate right like if it's this hard Yes to get a bunch of young women together Well, by the way, especially your friends are all busy the professionals yours are to yeah Look when I was a deadbeat and mission again one hard to get a hang on at all No one's doing a fucking thing and anyone to hit anyone like Okay, so your busy person was like a lot going on. Yeah But your peers are gonna be high-achieving so they're gonna maybe have to work late But again, you just treat it as if you'll die without it I like this analogy like you will it's worse than smokey. Yes research says so look I think this is a great active situational agency I would just say like I would not give myself full credit on that, but you've shown me the way do it. I am gonna do it The reason I love your writing is the anecdotes are Every four pages. We get a new story It's one after the amount of examples you have in research They're coming so fast and if you have a instantly gratifying brain like my own It's so tasty to read. It's a very very very fun read You're getting to learn about all these little things and little perfectly segmented tasty morsel bites And they're just kind of endless. That's what I'm blown away the amount of different fun anecdotes and stories that you've woven into This overall cohesive theory of yours. I think is is so well done And I really really hope people check out situated find the people in places that bring out your best love it Thank you, Dex. I adore you. Just come anyways. You have a block It's got a little how the facts. How are you Monica Padman? I'm good. I discovered something. Oh my gosh a discovery something bad Oh, okay, not like a scientific discovery. We'll see you'll see. Okay. You'll let you be the judge. Yeah. What's science? Really? Yeah everything I think um, okay So I am in the middle of reading a book that I love. Okay. What's it called? It's called God of the Woods. Okay. What's it about? Scary. It's a scary book. So it's set in the 70s. Okay. You're a decade of my birth. Yeah. And a summer camp and a girl goes missing. Oh, okay. Yeah, 70s. Perfect setting for missing girl at a summer camp. Yes. And her brother went missing some years before. Oh, and they still sent their other kid away to he didn't go missing at the camp. Okay. Okay. The family also owns this camp. Anyway, I'm giving away. Okay. Okay point is I'm really into this book. Yes. And um, I am so into it that even when I'm like on walks and stuff I want to listen. So I then also downloaded the audiobook. Oh, you're doing both. You're bouncing back and forth. Yes, so I can consume it as fast as I want. But the problem is, first of all, I don't generally like audiobooks. Okay. They're very hard for me to focus on. Okay, you get distracted. And then after a rewind, rewind, and I hate that. And then I try to do something extra interesting where I was listening to the audiobook. I was playing in my kitchen and then I picked up the physical book and I was reading and listening at the same time. How did that go? Bad because you know what? What? It didn't match. Wait, what? Yes. So I'm reading the audiobooks maybe abridged. Unabridged, you want to have that problem. You got a bridge. Let me look. Well, if it's not verbatim out of the text, then it is by definition a bridge. To say that. Well, what they'll say is they generally make the distinction unabridged. They won't tell you that it was a bridge. You got to look to make sure that it's unabridged. And you will often see the two of the same titles. One of them's a bridge to one of them's unabridged. All right. Yeah. It's not saying. But my guess is there's not more vocal audio. There's more text. That's what yeah. That's what I mean. They cut some stuff out. That's right. Yeah. But I'm going to look to see if there's unabridged. Tap, tap, tap, sit, tippy, tap, tap, tippy, tippy, tippy, tap, tap. Not available. Yeah. So maybe they don't have an unabridged version of it. Well, I'll tell you if it's unabrid, I think they're just, they skipped some parts. They skipped some sentences because it's still really long on here. Well, guy, how many hours? 14 hours, 35 minutes. This is confusing. That feels unabridged. Exactly. That's the kind of runtime we see in an unabridged. I think it was a mistake and I caught it. And it just happened. It was so sim. I happened to be on that exact page. I'm similarly having a trippy experience where I have gotten an advanced copy of an audio book. It's not been edited. So I'm hearing repeats. I'm hearing the author of the books also reading it. So it's like, I'm going along. I'm lost in it. And then he'll repeat the same sentence two or three times. And I'm like, wait, what's going on? I was like, oh, yeah, this isn't finished. Also, it hasn't been mixed. So it's like, it sounds much different. That's kind of hard to listen to, right? I mean, that's just a version that's hard to listen to. It's a different experience. Okay. So you love the book. I love it. You're bummed out that the audio version is skipping some stuff. I've reframed that I'm I love that that happened that I caught it and you busted. I know it was more just a sim. It was like a glitch like I happened to be on that one page. They made a mistake when I was listening on and reading that strange. That does remind me of watching physical 100 and being very suspicious that the Korean translations into English were not actually what they were saying because they were just so conveniently on story. I mean, is that really what they were? There's no way for us to know. That's why I watched with subtitles instead of that show specifically. Yeah. Well, there's that. There's the there's the voice over, you know, the dubbing, the dubbing, but even the the text was suspicious where I'm like, I need someone that speaks Korean with me to tell me if that's really what was just said. Yeah. Because it's very convenient in this moment. And sometimes things don't translate like, you know, there are phrases and things we don't have here. That's right. You know, Ana has a really good phrase in Spanish. I don't remember what it is, but in it translates to egg with no salt, which I love. I'm talking about a boring person. Yeah. But, you know, joy has a similar one under seasoned. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Egg with no salt sounds better though in Spanish, obviously. And this actually is not a good example because it does translate. But there are others and she'll she'll say them. And I'm like, what does it mean? She's like, it doesn't really. It's not going to work. Exactly. And then I'm jealous. So, um, just wanted to let you know, that's where I'm at. Uh, yesterday was just his birthday. Can you tell me you guys went out? Where'd you go? What happened? He turned 50. We played spades. Ali spades. I miss it because I don't play it nearly as much as I was afraid you were about to say, you don't like it. No, I love it. Okay. Yeah, because it's it's the queen's game. But, but, but, but, but. It is just a contentious game. Is it? Okay. So I wasn't contentious. Yeah. It also was just his birthday. He's on my team. And I said, it was like, no fight. We're not fight. No one's fighting today. Okay. That's the commitment. And then, you know, he's like, I don't fight. Okay. Great. And then, um, so we all, you know, we, we play. And then, and then just gets mad at Brian. Cause why? Cause the thing, I'm trying to think of the things you can get mad at is people say too much, like they're, they're giving their [BLANK_AUDIO]
partner info that you probably shouldn't be allowed to say. So that's one area that can get contentious. What other area though? Well, yeah. So that is kind of what happened, but not really like Brian, who-- Caught just the game. Exactly. Has been playing since he was a little like he's the king, he is the king of spades. He's the king of spades. Oh my god, that was really cool. That's really cool, which doesn't happen. So he just said something. I don't even remember what it was. Okay. I really don't. It was so innocuous. I think maybe he said they have theirs, which could be bad, right, because he was saying to his partner. You guys have already made your-- We got ours. Uh-huh. Us. So someone might be mad about that because it's like, well, if he wasn't paying attention then maybe whatever. But didn't matter because Brian had the next-- he had the rest of the hands. So nothing was changed. That steak, yeah, yeah. And Jess got so mad. Birthday, birthday, mad. He had birthday, too. He had a birthday bread-y-ness. Yeah. And he was like, no, you know, you know what you did. Oh, wow. And we were like, he didn't do anything. And then Brian, Brian's Jess's best friend. Brian is the nicest guy on her. He's a sweetheart. He's so, so nice and good. And he's just like, okay, I know what I-- like he is and then-- He acquiesced. Yeah. And you know, I'm not-- Now you're in-- Yeah. Now you're in love. I'm like, I'm not letting you treat Brian this way. I don't care if it's your birthday. And so at what-- And you and Jess are partners? Yeah. Okay, great. So how are you? And we were losing. So he was getting stressed. Yeah. He went, whatever. Anyway. So then he's doing it again. He's continuing. And I just-- I looked at him and I mouthed. Stop. Oh, I know. I know that. Look. You've seen me do that. Yeah. But I have to mouth it. Okay. So he really gets it. Yeah. Stop. You're in trouble. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're in trouble. So then he stopped because he was scared of his wife, mom. Yeah. And then he goes to the bathroom and then he comes back and he's like, oh, you know what? We're just going to be done. Oh, wow. He pulled the plug on the-- And we weren't going to finish. Okay. So to be fair, we weren't going to-- because one of the-- Andrew's other friend had to leave. So we were-- we're not going to be able to finish. But still, we had time to keep playing. Yeah. And he was like, I just-- I think we should just-- Play something else and-- and we were all like, no. What? He was like, well, we're not going to finish. And then we did end up playing one more round. I mean, then I was just like, God, this game really gets people. Yeah. I have to say. So we play, of course, with the Richardson's. Yes. Hours and hours and hours. These family vacations we take are just excuses to play spades in a different setting. Yeah. We'll go to the most spectacular place in the world. We won't see one museum. We'll just play spades at the cafe. We don't fight. Almost ever. If it happens, it'll be funny enough. It'll be me getting mad at Eric for how he's treating Molly, right? Like I'll say. Yeah, yeah. It's very similar. I'll be like, hey, come on now. That's-- yeah. Yeah. And then occasionally, there'll be the like-- you've said too much, you know? Right. I am a big-- I don't like when people say too much. I really don't like that. I don't like it, but it doesn't get me angry. Yeah. It's like, you know, you're always riding the line, and sometimes people step over it, but it's kind of fine. Obviously, so much of whether you fight or not in games is who you're playing with. Uh-huh. And the exact specific dynamic of the group. So it's not even like, you know, I could play with Jess--it's not like every time I play with Jess. It's just like the specific dynamics of all the individual people-- Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So it's funny. You know, like, I would get Sheriffy in. Yeah. Cellars are a good team. Yeah. And pretty often. Yeah. And I had to recuse myself from the game, right? I was just like, I don't like-- Yeah. These don't end well. It's not worth playing it. We used to fight a lot of time. Oh god, yeah. But everyone involved. Yeah, we did. Yeah. And then, like, got person, like a tan would get person. Yeah. Because sometimes you, like, would help people out. Yes. You know, gang up on people. It was the gang up that always set me off. I'm like, this is bullshit. Yeah. Or like, you're not going to build your road to help someone. But it's like, well, you should just build it there. That's the smart thing. But so you're helping. Yes. Come be else. All to fuck with me if I'm in the lead or fuck with you. Yeah. That's what-- I always felt a little like-- Like, Dax is always helping Kristen because he's her wife. Oh. She's his wife. And like, that's unfair. I don't have a husband here. Oh, OK. OK. So that was before Jess and I got married. OK. All right. So anyway. And we tend to fight also sometimes in space. Like, we have a contentious, competitive nature. I think it games. Yeah. But we haven't played together in a long time. So-- but it's just so funny. It is. It's my shoes. How is your shoe falling off while you're seated? No, it's just gotten tied. And then even how to get in tied while you're seated? It's not that good of a tie. You know, it's like one of these materials that doesn't stay tied well. OK. I saw you did like triple knots. I'm doing it. And now you're doing a double knot with the bows. You got 12 or so knots to them. It'll be out by the time this is over. Oh, wow. So Amy said, you guys-- you played in space. I didn't work out. Then you couldn't eat and have a good meal. Yeah, we didn't. Then we went to dinner went to smokehouse. Burbank classic. Oh, very classic. Yeah. And it was really fun. Yeah, great. You know, I went to a wedding last weekend. Yes, to do share. Well, it was the most fun time. Yeah, weddings are great. Sometimes they're great. Sometimes they're fine. OK. This one was particularly fun for me. OK. Because I don't know anyone that the bride and groom are friends with. I'm not in their circle at all. Right. And also they're way younger than us. So it's mostly younger people. And I did-- I was getting very aware of all the anthropological things that go on at a wedding and why they exist. Like, you could see the mechanics of it. And it's like, you get seated. You know, I was seated at the rehearsal dinner. Between two people, I don't know. Yep. But those two people can seevably love the same people I love. And I was like, oh, that's why these are so powerful about aligning families. Yeah, sure. You know, it's like it does something magical to your own defenses and your own protections. And you're just like kind of come in trusting everyone there. And you get closer to people in this really quick fashion in just a weekend. Yeah. Which is really, really fun. Yeah. And I had an incredible experience where I was seated between someone that was raised in Communist Poland and someone who cut their teeth in the business working for Aaron Spelling. Right. Very different. The code switching I was doing going back and forth between the two different conversations I was having was among the most dramatic I've ever had other than that time we interviewed a sex expert followed by someone that was in a gulag. Yeah. It was that level of like, yeah, I'm like laughing about really naughty, naughty, naughty stuff on the left. And then I'm turning and I'm talking about trading a pair of leabies for a car. Oh, wow. You know, so that was really, really fun. And then then the dance, the dance floor. Oh boy. Yeah. Monica, I went full throttle. I bet I danced for three plus hours. You love dancing so much. I had my shirt off because I was soaking wet dancing. Oh, you were wearing a pants. Tuxedo pants. At some point it became Tuxedo pants in no shirt. Okay. Not even a like wipe. No, no shirt. My shirt was so disgustingly soaked. Did anyone else have their shirts off? No. Okay. But an incredible moment happened where one of the guests kept making fun of me. Why is your shirt off? Yeah, fair. And then I then grabbed my shirt and I said to her, you are ruining this wedding. I'm going to put my shirt back on. I was teasing her. Everyone's going to leave. You're ruining the wedding. And as I was putting it on someone ran across the dance floor guy and he goes, what stop? What are you doing? Do not put your shirt on. The timing of it. If we were filming it, he would have never entered at a more perfect time to make everything hysterical. Okay. And then I got an actual specific compliment on Monday from the groom saying, I have so much gratitude for anyone that comes and tears up the dance floor for three hours at a wedding. And I was the oldest guy there that wasn't a family member. Sure. I mean, it was dramatically older than everyone. Not dramatically. Oh, 24 years. It's like I could have been the fact that I could have been the parents of most of the people. Yeah, it was pretty dramatic. Oh, wow. Yeah. I thought just rolling.
quick, not to, but I just thought that the story was going to be that you went to put on your shirt and then someone slipped on the sweat. Oh, that would have been funny, but they would have gotten hurt probably. Oh, like an easy, just quick fall, but they popped right back, but it's like a. But the enthusiasm, which this guy was screaming, please don't put your shirt back out at the moment. I was thinking the joke that it was going to ruin the wedding, it was just, I just wanted to leave at that moment. Well, that's not getting any more perfect than that in a situation that happened. Wow. So you did leave your shirt. Oh, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not coming back on. Wow. I had fans at one point, like those Asian fans, you know, like the little, what do you call folding ones? Yeah. And I was doing a very elaborate dances with the fans that were really where I felt like Lincoln. Like Lincoln discovers something like she can skip this rope and she thinks she's a pro editor right away. Yes. And I'm the same exact way. When I'm watching, I'm like, oh yeah, any, you know, so yeah, I had this whole fan routine going. I mean, it was, it was an exploratory and expansive three hours of dancing. And I, I don't think I've done cardio on that level. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I woke up in the next morning. I was like, I was done like five pounds from all of the exertion and sweat, sweating on the dance floor. I was also a vegetarian meal, sweating, so I was eating like, you know, way less, so it's great. I really, I came back not top a few pounds. Well, yeah, just my, my, my, my percentages dropped in a pleasing way. But it was a blast. Really? I love being around young people. Oh wow. I hope I get to always have a route because it is youth is infectious, you, you, it's contagious. Interesting. I felt like I was 28 that whole weekend, I was like, oh, yeah, I time travel. This is exactly how I behaved when I was 28, shirt off dancing for three hours. That's not going to happen in our friendship group. Like that's not, no, I don't think that's going to happen. I, that's so interesting. Also, you will be around young people. You have two young daughters, but, but I won't be able to behave like that because they'll be so embarrassed. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. I totally feel the opposite. Like the older I get, the more I'm just like, wow, I'm so glad I'm not in my 20s. Like I'm just so, I'm much happier the older I get and more content and more. Yeah. Um, even like, how do I say this? We did something where we were talking to a young person. They're really like earnest and so sweet and it was like lovely. Yeah. And then, but you said after you were like, oh, like, to be that age and have like everything is important and the part that you're writing your life story and you have kind of an inflated sense of your storybook is something to take from. Yeah. Um, yeah. I don't. I don't want that again. My conclusion, uh, leaving it, I was like trying to figure out what I was feeling and the way I think I've framed it is when you're younger, you prioritize your experiential self all the time. Mm-hmm. You are, you don't care if you stay up till six in the morning. You know, you're probably doing drugs or drinking too much or smoking cigarettes with your friends like all, you're just like you're prioritizing the experiential self at the expense of your narrative self, you know, the person that two days later at work is going to be drag and ass. Right. And so I think as you get older, you keep sliding more down the spectrum of torture narrative self and being responsible and setting yourself up for next week and, you know, it seems to be the natural evolution. Yeah. So there's something beautiful about prioritizing your experiential self. And I think that gets harder to do as you get older. You're just more responsible. Your friends are more responsible. Nobody's going to just throw tomorrow to the win for today. I maybe again, maybe this is just so specific to me. I feel like I'm on the other trajectory, like I feel like I started out so burdened with like, what's my life going to be responsibility and like even being, even with being on with friends, like is everyone okay? Am I okay? Are we all drinking? Like I, you had a lot more anxiety. Yes. I was like riddled with anxiety and it was about the future. It was about my narrative self. Like do I want to be a person that's doing this like, and now I feel like I'm dropping a lot of that. I'm just like, oh, I'm here, I'm doing what I want right now. Yeah, you're more comfortable and have less anxiety and you're enjoying the experiences you're having. You're more present for them. Yeah, I think. I'm more talking specifically about stealing from tomorrow for today. Yeah. I generally do not do that in my adult. Yeah, well, you have to learn otherwise. Yeah, like I just, I just generally don't do it. I'm going to go to bed on time because I want to meditate and do all my bullshit and I can't be starting the day at noon. So whatever. I just, but to have a few moments in your year where you totally steal from tomorrow and maybe the next day for just this incredibly heightened experience is important. Like I'll remember this night of dancing to all hours of the night. You know, like it'll be a very memorable experience and it caused me feeling a little tired the next few days. I'm really grateful to have had it. That's good. Yeah, I, I don't know. I kind of feel like I'm, I like live, I like live like that now. Yeah, maybe you could go to bed at a reasonable time. Yeah, it depends. Like if I, if I decide tonight, I want to stay up till three. I will. Okay. And yeah, if I like, right, yes, that's what I'm saying. So I, you're already getting plenty of service. I think I'm getting on your experiential self. I think so. So I'm glad you got that. Yeah. Um, sometimes it's worth it to be tired. Yeah. Okay. Something cute happened earlier. I have this mug. It's a really cute mug. It's, um, from the Ritz Paris. And I love mugs, you know, and this has, yeah, this has for the listener like scones on it. And like pastries, a kutramah and some bugs on it. And then on the inside of the cup, there's a ladybug print. Yeah. Just one. And I had my tea and it was sitting out and, and DAX got so concerned that there was a bug in my tea. I went to get it out for you. Yeah. And then I was humiliated. Did you feel tricked? No, I just, like I would drink a tea that there had been a bug in. Right. I was going to get rid of the bug and it wouldn't bother me. And so weirdly, like what was going on so fast is like, I was like, I got to get that out there before she sees it. And then I was like, Oh, is that trickery? Is she going to be like, would she not want to drink it? But I just, I know if she doesn't see it and I get rid of it, it's probably no thing. But if she sees it, that thing's dead. She's going to have to throw the whole thing out. So there was just, it was, it was very layered other than just the trickery of, it wasn't really a bug. Yeah. And then you felt really annoyed, probably. I never got upset. I thought it would be. I would be kind of upset if I got like, Oh, you know, worked up. And then I was just like, Oh, oh, that's a trick. Yeah. That's a funny trick. You were excited because it is the trick or I didn't, I just thought it was not, no. I was like, Oh, it's nice. He wanted to get that bug. He was worried about this tea in my, in this bug. And then, oh, he got tricked and he doesn't like getting tricked. Oh, by an inanimate object, I don't, by an inanimate object, I don't mind. Okay. I don't like deception in humans. Yeah, but a human made this, you know, but I'm, I don't know, no, no, no. Now, to be clear. Not surprised. It was a Frenchman. Yeah, exactly. To be clear, if a bug of this size, which is like pretty big, was in here, yeah, I would throw it away. Yeah. Yeah. So you were right. I don't mind a bug if there were a lizard in my drink. I wouldn't have that. Oh, yeah. Salmonella. Ew. Yeah. Well, if it's a teeny tiny bug or like a fruit, fly, that's fine. Yeah. I'll get that out. Okay. Right. Good. But a huge ladybug. But only the top was showing. It didn't look like a ladybug. It looked like some kind of small nat type sitch. Yeah. Okay. Fruit fly. Don't bother me. Okay. All right. Should we do some facts? Let's do some facts. Quick, fun fact. What? So Angela had to use the bathroom after the ssh episode. Mm-hmm. And so she came in and she got to meet Kristen and the kids and she hung out for 20 minutes and used the bathroom and then she was about to uber to her friend's house. And I said, I'll drive you to your friend's house and she said, oh, thank you. And I said, do you want to take a car or motorcycle? And she's like, she goes, I've never been on a motorcycle. Yes. You know, well, let's come on. And I want to publicly applaud her. It's not like her first motorcycle ride was on a country road. It was a rush hour traffic, LA, me going to Hancock Park, Lane's splitting like crazy.
going around to turn love, you know. And she just was chatting the whole time. We were just chatting up a storm and we were, I mean, it was about as intensive a first moment. I go around as you could probably have. And she was a champ and it was so fun. And that is now the second guest we've had that I gave their first motorcycle ride to. That's lucky. And I hope it becomes a pattern. So any future guests, if like you, that's a desire of yours, it's a service we provide. Wow. That's great. She did pull me aside. And she was like, is it, have you been on his motor motorcycle? And I was like, yeah, I have. It's like, it's fun. And she was like, is it dangerous? And I was like, I was like, yeah, I was like, he knows what he's doing. It's fine. He's still here. He's still here. You know, we used to, we used to work with a guy Monica. When we delivered cars and we delivered them very long distances from Detroit. We drive to Florida, to out cars off New York, almost every other weekend. And we worked with this guy, Don, who did the most amount of deliveries. And he didn't sleep. And he drank Coca-Cola in the car all day long and brushed his teeth with the coat. There was so much stuff going on. And he would be sometimes driving. And he'd be like, God dare I go to sleep on the ride home from New York. And it was kind of scary because I don't think his eyesight was that great either. And then you just had to go like, I don't know how he keeps getting home. That's kind of how we kept. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't argue with the results. Yeah, who am I to not fall asleep while he's driving? Yeah. He's all over the road and stuff with me and he keeps doing it. Wow. Okay. Does you saying Bolt? Yes, he's done interviews before. But we have. Yeah. He's even been on the OB-1 podcast and the high performance podcast. Okay. So that's good for us. Maybe he'll come on. Hopefully he can come in on the robot that just broke his speed record. And then crashed into a bunch of electrical equipment. You see the end of that? Oh, I watch endless footage of these robots. I love it. I was with legs by people. You're real great in a straight line. Yeah. Oh, here you go. I'm like, if I'm him, I'm pissed. Well, why? I didn't. Does it mean anything? Part is faster than him too. He's not going to be at a bar next to that robot. You know, shine. People are going to come out and be like, oh, do you hear your record? Yeah. People like me. I'll meet him outside before the interview. Do you read them? Did Ed respond Ed Norton? He did. And he did not know who she was. And then but he promised to promptly learn about her. Okay. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to pat myself on the back. Let's do it. She brought up the book, the correspondent, very popular book right now. I have not read it yet. But I pulled out the name of the author. You're really good at the names. And I don't even read it. You save us a lot. I thought, I mean, I've just seen it. I own the book. I haven't read it. But I own it. So I think it's like entered my eyes in a way it was shocking. I just said, oh, Virginia Evans. And then later I was like, there's no way that's the right author. And it is. It is. I have to say I have a pretty deep knowledge of what would you call them? Classics and popular books over the last two centuries. I know the author in the title and I know what the books about, but I haven't read it. But it is interesting that you can like books become common knowledge, even if you haven't read them. Like someone can be talking about it. He wants the thing and I'll go like, oh, it's that book from, but I haven't read that book. You know what I'm saying? Even Uptans and Claire, I said, the jungle. Yeah. And I haven't read that. And I haven't I haven't read any Uptans and Claire other than some passages. But I know what his books were about and expose the meat packing industry and, you know, yeah. Well, you probably learned about it in school. I think I just hear people talking about it. Because if you, I generally, if you learned it in school, you were, you are assigned that book and then you would talk about it. Yeah, but not everyone reads them. I certainly didn't know. I had to read Old Man in the Sea. That's rough. That was torture. I mean, ways for guys. It's, it's so for guys. I hated it. Yeah. I've loved some Hemingway books. It's all about pursuits of masculinity. It was so boring. You're just sitting there. Like, oh, it's a man battling a creature. Yeah. That's horrible. So you know, I'm going to go on a podcast where I get to talk about a book that changed my life. Which book is that? And I don't know yet what I'm going to pick. Oh, what are your top three? I can think of some. Well, yeah, I'm not going to pick any of the hairies. I think you should. No, because I bet other people have done it. Like, I think it's like a real deep dive into whatever book I pick. And I think if somebody else has done that, I don't want to do that. But listen, it's very personal. It is. It's very personal. Well, yeah. Well, you mean just because I love it so much. No, like we outcast. Yeah, like, I don't feel like I belong. Oh, I belong somewhere. That's a very specific story to you. And we had a guess on recently that's coming out. Great. Megastar. And she too. And it goes against my stereotype, right? And then I go, Oh, no, that makes perfect sense. I think for many, many people, yeah, what they connected to is like, oh, I am special. I'm just not in the right place. Definitely. Yes. But I just too many people have read it. And it's a lot of books do that. A lot of books, the reason you resonate is because you're like, Oh, yeah, I like know this person. And that's me and someone's loving them, you know, when they feel unlovable. Yeah. I really want to do tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. That's, I only read that a couple of years ago. I love that book so much. But I do think probably someone's already done that. So you really want to pick a book. A book I haven't read. Yeah. Yeah. I would do catcher in the eye. Yeah. Great book or crime and punishment. And certainly people would pick those books. It would be pedestrian. But it would be the truth. It's like the first time I was reading something where I was like, Oh my Lord, I'm not the only person on earth that thinks this way. And is experiencing this phenomenological thing that is life. Oh, wow, I'm not alone. Yeah. I mean, have you ever read Lords of Discipline? No. That's a Pat Conroy book that was my favorite book for like well, very, very, very long time. But I think I would need to reread it. It's like, I don't really remember what I loved so much about it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it like takes place at West Point. Talk about for boys, but I really connected with it. We love stories at school. That's what my crux of the interview will be. Yeah. Anyway, is the correspondent of Virginia Evans first book? Yes. Okay, the school. I looked up the headmaster of the school that Bill Gates went to. Lakeside school. Okay. Lakeside school. The school is the school. Dan, I wrote a route. A-Y-R-A-U-L-T is the headmaster. Oh, served as the headmaster from 69 to 1990. Well, I would have included Bill. Yeah. Cool. What did he? He's turned 17. He might be after after 90. No, no, after 60. He Bill might be before 69. So Bill turned 70 last year. 1955. He was born. 55. So when he was 12, it would have been 67, 14, 69. So the dude might have just arrived. Maybe he just arrived. Or maybe he wanted to double down on computer science. So they crossed. But that's that's that's right at the wire. Oh, yeah. Sorry. It says right here. Graduated in 1973. Okay. So right when he arrived, this guy arrived. He arrived in 69. So yeah, they they were there at the same time. That's nice. I love teachers. What a group of boys that guy oversaw. Okay. Angela says that every socio-economic status people are spending more time alone. People across different socio-economic statuses have actually increased overall with the sharpest rises concentrated among lower income and less educated individuals. Lower socio-economic status increases in alone time and home-based leisure are significantly more pronounced for individuals from lower income households. Oh, there you go. So it's kind of opposite of what you intuitively think. And those without a college education, higher socio-economic status, while higher income individuals also experienced shifts in time use, partially influenced by remote and work flexibilities. The long-term structural climb in daily isolation has grown faster among lower resource groups. Yeah, across nearly all demographics, the multi-year trend since the 2000s accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic up to up to 2022 points towards more time spent living and doing leisure activities at home and buy oneself rather than last. Okay. Yes. So everyone. Not great. Not great. Not a great at all.
Okay, Michael Phelps, he retired in after the 2012 London Olympics, returned to competition in April 2014, and then retired permanently after 2016 Rio Olympics. He has some substance issues around alcohol. He first experienced post-lympic depression after the 2004 Athens Games. It returned after later Olympics and was at its worst after the 2012 Games when he contemplated suicide. Oh, what is currently the number one U.S. school for swimming? Texas. That's what she said, right. She spilled Bill Bowman and moved there from ASU. Runner up. Florida. I hate all these schools. Okay. Yeah. Third is Indiana. I don't hate them as much. Okay. Because they weren't as much of a threat. Yeah. In football? Yeah. Big 10. I broke Michael Phelps men's 400 meter individual medley world record and by how much ding-ding-ding-ding. A robot. I know. French swimmer Leon Marshond broke the record at the 2023 World Aquatics Championships. Beat it by 1.34 seconds. That's it. That's it. My world record was beat. Me too. That's why I don't have any because I just don't want them to beat me. You just know. It's so temporary. It's just. You're too Buddhist to care about such things. No. I definitely care about winning records. But remember your reboot is last year when White Lotus was out? Yeah. I come in. I dip in it out. You dip in it. Okay. All right. Love you. Love you. Love you.
Podcast Summary
Key Points:
Angela Duckworth emphasizes that success is not solely due to grit or personal effort, but is deeply influenced by one’s situation and environment.
Her new book, *Situated*, builds on her earlier work *Grit* by arguing that understanding the context in which people live and act—such as their social, economic, and physical circumstances—is essential to fully explaining human behavior.
She critiques the overemphasis on individual willpower, noting that even the most gritty individuals can fail when faced with a disadvantageous situation, and that true growth often comes from changing one’s environment rather than pushing harder.
Summary:
Angela Duckworth, a renowned psychologist and author, discusses the limitations of focusing solely on personal grit as the driver of success. In her new book, *Situated*, she argues that human behavior and achievement are profoundly shaped by situational context—such as socioeconomic status, relationships, and environment—rather than just individual effort. She shares personal anecdotes, like her harrowing snorkeling experience with her mother, to illustrate how even strong willpower can fail when circumstances are inherently unfavorable.
Duckworth introduces the "three-box model" of human behavior: actions (behavior), thoughts (cognition), and situations (context), emphasizing that to understand any behavior, one must trace it back to its situational roots. She highlights real-life examples, such as Leon Martjand, who improved his swimming performance not through greater effort, but by changing his training environment to one with better resources and mentorship. Duckworth also critiques the idea that grit alone leads to success, noting that people often overlook the power of external factors like mentorship, culture, and geography.
She stresses that true agency involves recognizing and adapting to one’s situation, rather than relying solely on internal willpower. Ultimately, her message is that understanding and actively shaping one’s environment—through choices like changing location, seeking mentors, or altering routines—is essential for long-term success and well-being. This perspective challenges the common narrative of success as a personal triumph of perseverance and instead presents it as a complex interplay between individual traits and situational forces.
FAQs
The book emphasizes that human success is shaped not just by personal grit or effort, but by the situations people are in—highlighting how environments, relationships, and context influence outcomes.
She argues that people often attribute success to grit or willpower alone, but true success comes from being in environments and with people that support and amplify one’s potential.
The three-box model breaks down behavior into situation (box one), thoughts (box two), and actions/emotions (box three), showing that behavior is rooted in context, not just internal willpower.
She points out that when circumstances are unfavorable—like in her story with her mother in the ocean—effort alone can’t overcome environmental limitations; changing the situation is often more effective.
Leon Martjand, a swimmer from France, moved to Arizona to train under Bob Bowman and improved his times significantly, ultimately breaking a world record, showing that better environments can amplify talent and effort.
She argues that while grit is valuable, it's not sufficient—success also depends on situational factors like support, resources, and environment, which can make or break a person’s trajectory.
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