Andy Baraghani on Yearning for Flavor Across Borders

Some cooks are defined by a single food culture. Andy Baraghani is shaped by many, but with a yearning for one. Growing up in a second-generation Iranian-American family in the Bay Area, he was immersed in Persian culture and Californian produce. At 16, that led him to the kitchen door of the Seminole restaurant Chez Panisse. From there, he cooked in kitchens in New York before finding his way to Bon Appetit, where he became known for both his recipes and his biceps. He went on to write the James Beard Award-winning The Cook You Want to Be. What I admire most about Andy is that he's always been ambitious for himself and his place in the food world. The same goes for the way that he travels. With every new country and trip, he finds a new flavor, expanding and refining his canon of recipes. Today, we talk about going. Going solo in Vietnam, the bold food of Beirut, his near-but-far relationship with Iran, and the mercurial mulberry. Here's my conversation with Andy Baraghani. My friend, welcome. Hey, David. Welcome to Traveling Through. I can't wait. I wanted to start our conversation with one place that we have in common, which is. I know, Chez Panisse. Yeah. When were you there? Because we almost crossed over. Almost. I was a baby. I was a little Berkeley. 2007 is when I came. Like, end of 2006. Yeah, I was a baby. Very young cook. And I like to say I was a sponge. I really was just deeply curious. Went into the kitchen by myself and turned to Beth Wells, who's still there. And I said, I want to work here. I'll do whatever. I'm in school, but I'll come after school. And on weekends. And I think I could see her confusion, but she was like, okay. Was it because you grew up in Berkeley and that was the most famous restaurant? Or is it something else, some other quality of the restaurant that drew you? I think I grew up in a household where we cooked pretty much every meal. I mean, we did go out, but not often. And then I wasn't aware of Chez Panisse until maybe a year or two before I started working there. It was my uncle who kind of told me about it. He was like, oh, there's a very famous restaurant here that's been here for many, many years that goes back to the 70s and really kind of created a movement. And then my aunt gave me the Chez Panisse Cafe cookbook. And then I just became honestly obsessed. And I don't use that word often, but I really was about everything. The philosophy, the mantra, the food, the recipes, the woman behind it, the chefs that have gone through those doors. And I just thought, how is this? Right there. How is it right there? And so I just had to kind of get myself in there somehow. And I feel like that behavior, the way I'm wired, has kind of luckily still is very much in me. I still think I'm like that. Like anything that I become enamored by and really fascinated by, I think of like, how can I learn? How could I learn? It was a foundational period of time. It really kind of provided a tremendous foundation in terms of food and cooking for me. Well, talking about the woman behind it, Alice, I worked in her office. I worked for about, what, five, six years. And it's like, you know, interesting that you say it was kind of an education because that's where she's coming from. Of the main things that you learned, what were kind of the real takeaways from Chez Panisse that you used? I would say like without even getting so technical, I'd say it's more of a like behavioral. I think it's like continuing to be curious, to practice, I think, too. And really the most. The most important is to taste. Taste throughout. Taste in the beginning and the middle and the end. Adjust and understand the kind of aliveness of the ingredients you're working with and that you're cooking with. And even then, I was so not sure. I'm like, am I supposed to go to culinary school? I never ended up going to culinary school. You've been there when you were 16. I was very young. And one of the chefs there, Cal, I remember he told me, he's like, don't go. Like, continue working in restaurants. Work your way up. And. I just thought, listen, this is now 20 years ago, which is very crazy. We look fantastic. Thank you. I did not. I did not think about that until this very moment. I'm like, 20 years ago. I'm like, oh, I think those lessons that I've learned, I still use those lessons. I remember in the pages of some of the books, you mentioned the cafe, the Chez Panisse cafe book, which is, of course, a masterpiece. But my favorite one is vegetables. Of course. Of course. I guess, like, I'd be curious. I'd like to know your, of Persian heritage. Yes. First summation. And that is obviously a very vegetable centric cuisine. So I think about your cooking as not only vegetables, but also very herb forward. Which is a big part of Persian cuisine, too. It's like they love their herbs. And so where is the kind of place that you feel like uses herbs the best in terms of your travel? Out of all the places that I've been to, I say this over and over. I've not been able to go to Iran. It's like the kind of missing piece, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But the place that I have been to that has the same, I imagine the same love for herbs is Vietnam. I mean, I really have not experienced a country that just consumes herbs in a way that is so similar to the way I grew up, where it's like the fistful and it's platters of herbs, platters of raw herbs. And that you kind of throw into whatever soup or noodles or you eat. In between bites, it provides this freshness and this bite and bitterness and sweetness and earthiness. Going there and traveling kind of up and down the country and seeing how it's such a big part. And really the range of herbs, herbs I've had never even seen before. Do you create Vietnamese inflected food or is it just something you enjoy? No, no, no. I definitely there's a few dishes in my first book and definitely recipes. I've developed for the times and when I was at Bon Appetit. But there I remember going, I was in Ho Chi Minh and Hanoi and Da Nang and Sapa and Phu Quoc. But and there were dishes like Bun Rieu, which if I could, that would be a dish I'd have every single morning. That would be the dish I'd have every morning. And it's a hot soup. It's noodle soup, but with tomatoes and tofu and sometimes some seafood. And it. Just delicious. I love any kind of tomato soup mixture and tomato and egg. I just I love or Bun Ba Wei, which is more richer and heavier and obviously all the different salads. I remember having like a these seen this restaurant is not even right. It was like an open stall. It had just a pile. The whole window front was piled with fried eels. Tiny, tiny. Eels like this big, just all like so airy and crisp. And they did like three different dishes and they put like there was like a noodle soup where you had like a big handful of fried eel. And then you had like this salad that was fried eel and I and I got both. But one dish that I had and it was in Hanoi and it was a restaurant that made just this one dish didn't do anything else, which happens a lot in that part of the world in Vietnam, especially called Chacha Lavang. So it's this. Fried fish with tumeric and dill. Oh. And they serve it with rice noodles and nhoc chum, which is obviously incredible Vietnamese sauce of like that has every single kind of sour, sweet, funky and spicy. And then with like lots of herbs and lettuce. And I was very confused because if you take away the noodles and then nhoc chum, I'm like, this is a Persian dish. This is this is reminded me of of Sabzi Polo Mahi, a dish you eat during the Persian New Year. And it's a herb rice dish. But the fish you you fry it and you fry it sometimes with tumeric or with saffron and you serve it with sour oranges and dill. Dill is such a huge part of Persian cuisine. How would it be like Vietnam? I had no idea. I also happen to just that's like my favorite herb. Is it really? I wouldn't I wouldn't wouldn't dare ask you. That was going to be my opening question. What your favorite herb is. It changes every day. But today it's dill. For a while now it's been dill. But and tarragon and fresh bay leaves. Those are the fresh bay leaf. I blame. I'm sure people are going to roll their eyes. I blame Chez Panisse a hundred percent for that. I was thinking about we have a shared love of Lebanon. Yes. And Beirut specifically for multiple reasons. And just thinking about markets and farmers markets. We have a mutual. A mutual friend called Kamal Muzwa who started a thing called Sukkotayeb which is a farmers market and a way to kind of catalog agriculture and food culture throughout Lebanon and really related to bringing people from all of the major sects. So Shiites, Sunni, Druze, Maronite, Christian all coming together. Women. And women. Yeah. Well exactly. And that's evolved from that too. And it's amazing because it's it's on the green line. Where, you know, that kind of demilitarized zone, I think, I think that's what you call it, the zone in the middle of Beirut. I mean, it's an incredible thing of reconciliation, that place, no? Absolutely. I mean, I think I, it was very accidental, I have to mention. I wanted to go to Lebanon. I wanted to go to Beirut. I had this kind of, sometimes it's these, you know, things you read or see or an old photo and it inspires me and it's like, oh, I just want to go there. There's plenty of places that maybe might feel random to some people, but it was very intentional for me. Lebanon was one of those places. And I had met Kamal on that first trip and on my own, and it was incredible. It was incredible because it was, I remember going there and I was, had a layover and it, the gate to go to Beirut was also, the gate next to it was Tehran. So it was so, it was frankly like just a mindfuck because it was like, oh, I am, this, this, the country of like my, my parents, where I speak the language, I cook the food, I know the food and this deep desire, this missing piece is right there and I'm not able to go. And there's just, it's, it's near impossible for me to go. Obviously I got on my flight, I went to Beirut and it felt at least there was something, well, wildly different and different and a different language and different culture and different food. There was something. There was something about it because the hospitality that I felt from Kamal, from the people that I met in Lebanon was just, it reminded me of my own family, but with a little more chaos, I have to admit. Like I, I love my, my Lebanese people. I think they're a touch more livelier and Persians are pretty lively, but I think Lebanese are even wilder because they have this amazing habit or accidental habit of speaking French, Arabic and English and like, you know, one or two sentences. It's all. And the food, I should say like the food and, and I ate with Kamal a few times and, but this first trip was incredible and just had a deeper appreciation from the food of the Levant and all the breads and, and also getting into baits. Cause you know, of course, like, because we're somewhat neighbors and they'd say, oh, you Persians, you guys just eat rice and you guys just, it's saffron, this saffron. I was like, well, you know. You guys don't know how to make rice, so it's like, cause I mean, I love these kind of a fun, uh, you know, food debates and culture debates. I was there. Um, I mean, believe it or not, flying into Beirut in order to go into a story in Damascus and Syria, because Damascus was going to be the new Marrakech and we did this extraordinary shoot is one of the, the great travels of my life. But you know, you come in and out of Beirut and very few people realize that Beirut and Damascus. Damascus are like, what an hour and a half away. So I would get a taxi in and out, um, from Syria, which is kind of crazy. But the project of Suk Al-Tayyeb also evolved then into Tawleh, which was really like an extraordinary, um, program. And effectively what it was is women grandmothers that would bring every day of the week, they would change which community throughout the country would come, bring their produce and create kind of recipes, food from the region. Yeah, exactly. And then they would catalog them. So it became this kind of living archive of Lebanese cuisine. And I only stumbled on it. It's like a, a canteen, but really beautiful. And then have all of the salads kind of brought out to you. And, and I remember they had an art exhibition, which was paintings and representations of Mount Ararat because it was a nod to kind of the Armenian community there that kind of mixes in with in Beirut, because of course it's like a huge nexus. Kamal did something, he's the one who kind of said, you know, he gave me suggestions and we, we had a few meals and, uh, we spent a lot of time together, but I remember him telling me like, oh, you need to go to Burj Hammud. And I was like, you know, and it wasn't far from Tawleh. And I, uh, I went there and it was the Armenian neighborhood in Beirut. And I just had Armenian food and I ate so much. I mean, from different kebabs, lahmacun to these steaks. And I was like, I'm going to go to Burj Hammud. And more than any other place in the world, I'm like, this is old. This has seen things. Center of the universe. It felt that way, that deep, deep, deep blue water. The in-between of two continents. And I was there actually on my own during the Taksim Square riots. And I was staying near Taksim Square. I was staying in Taksim Square. I was staying in Jiangir. I stayed in two different areas, Jiangir and Çukurçukuma. And they were just incredible. And it felt like young. And obviously I didn't know about the riots. And the riots happened and I was in Turkey for again probably about like three weeks on my own. And I remember my family being like, "Get out of there. What's happening?" "Get out of there. What's happening?" Of course I was right there, a good Berkeley boy, in the protests, with the protests. And then I remember there was a curfew one night. I can't believe I remember this. There were two things that had happened. I went on a date with a guy there one night. And protests were happening. And I guess there were starting to impose a curfew. But they threw a noise bomb But they threw a noise bomb at where we were eating. So we all went inside this restaurant and the owner just started yelling at them in Turkish. And the owner just started yelling at them in Turkish. I mean, what a noise bomb makes. And I had never experienced that obviously before. And it was terrifying. And I remember walking back and it was a curfew. and it was a curfew. No one was on the street. And I should have known better. And I remember just a guard pointing their gun at me. I just was so terrified. And all I remember saying was, "I took my passport out." That's all I remember. I'm like, I remember waving my passport. It's like, I'm an American. But I went into survival mode. That being said, like, that's not a good painting of Turkey, but that was a very specific time. It was a very specific time. But also, you know, the thing is, and we should be realistic about, like, Istanbul and Turkey, is, like, whenever the, you know, people start going back, something happens in that way. I have very good friends. She used to be the editor-in-chief of Vogue Turkey, and her partner runs kind of a fixer that we work with all the time, and they're, like, fantastic, sensational people, and they were very involved in, like, the electoral transparency organization setting that up, and she was also very involved in trying to get the Olympics to go to Istanbul, which almost happened many times. And so I was there, yeah, last year, and I still encourage people to go. I mean, obviously, there's, you know, these riots, and that happens every so often, often even recently, but it does. It, you know, it breaks my heart a little bit, because once they get momentum, they have this setback. Yes. I'm confident that, like, progress will. Will. Yeah, I think that that will overcome, because it's one of the, you know, it's the original cosmopolitan city in a way. We're talking about markets. I mean, the markets over there, and obviously there's the more, there's the obvious ones, like the bazaar there, but there are smaller markets that are incredible within Istanbul and outside that are just. You know, the, I think the greatest figs I've had are obviously were in Istanbul and Sicily, those two, yeah. I mean, I don't advise going with, like, glamorous girlfriends who then get caught up in the counterfeit market. I know. And then they're, like, going for the Chanel the entire time. It was, like, drove me crazy three hours trying to follow them around. But you have to go with your friends who want good pestamels. Like, those are good. I still have. What's a pestamel? Pestamels are the Turkish towels. They're very, very thin. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. And there are some that are just, incredibly beautifully made. I mean, you can see so many, but there's ones that are really well made and they're very thin, very lightweight. They're, like, perfect in the summer and they dry so quickly. You know, you're giving me a very vivid memory. I went with another great friend of mine, my best friend, actually, who was a chef and we went to do this experience, speaking of thin, thin kind of fabric. Mm-hmm. We went to. I went to a bakery, a Turkish bakery, and it was from a family from Gaziantep, which does the best sweets. And I'm not a big Turkish sweet person. I find them a bit too sweet. Too sweet. A lot of. That's the case with, you know, not to general. It happens a lot with Middle Eastern sweets. I have the same feeling with Persian sweets. There can be good ones, but Turkish baklava is amazing. Can I tell you, though, is this one was kind of amazing. And it was almost like going to. a hotel laundromat because, like, behind the scenes, because they were throwing the phyllo pastry like sheets. And it was just these clouds of flour and sugar. It was one of the most extraordinary experiences. I'm remembering all these things. Yeah. Because Istanbul was. I was very young. And Vietnam. I was. Vietnam, I was in. I was still in college. I'd say Turkey and Vietnam are two places that have. are the. are the. are the. are the places that when people ask, like, oh, where have you gone where you've had, like, the best food? I still would say those two. I do love Paris, but that's separate. I think, like, in terms of just learning about the food and loving what I kind of. All the mussels. I just remember all the stuffed mussels that people were. I think some people might be afraid to have. I had so many stuffed mussels with rice just on the street. But it's like my mouth's watering. Really? Because it was like this amazing, like, slightly. slightly overcooked, smoky rice and mussels and that were kind of briny. And it was delicious. Where do you want to go next? Like, what's your, like. I'll say I have a lot of trips, Egypt being one of them, where I have, like, this loose list already forming. And Egypt is definitely one. I'd say the number one is India. I think it's crazy. I just am so fascinated by the hospitality, the hotel culture, the food culture, just. what a. I have no doubt that I would be deeply, deeply inspired. And I love that food. And it's highly, highly regional. You know, such a range of cuisine. And I think, like, we're starting to. We're so lucky to see that here in New York slowly, where we're seeing regional Indian cuisine a little bit more. And that's actually just what excites me now, in the world now, I think, like, with major cities. It's like, we're not doing these kind of general. This is Chinese, this is Indian. Because, like, what does that mean? These kind of countries and cultures, it varies so much. Just like a place, like a smaller country like Lebanon, it's highly regional. Each neighborhood, each province, they have, you know, their variation and different take. You're going to come to India with me. I would love that. I feel like I have to. There's many countries I just. Most countries, it's like, I would love for you to take me around. Because I'm usually the tour guide. We would have a great time in India. You know, and interestingly, like, in India, there is the Parsi community, which left Persia, Iran, the Zoroastrians 700 years ago. And now, sadly, it's like a. It's a. Smaller community, but still, yeah. It's a. And it's, you know, it has some troubles of, like, survival, I think. But that's kind of an extraordinary thing. You know, you talk about getting closer to your heritage. Like, that would be something extraordinary for you to see because it's filtered through the Indian tradition. You know, it's quite an amazing food. I think that's also part of this. Sometimes I'm conscious of it, sometimes I'm not. This desire to kind of go to places that have maybe a sliver aspects or certain pages that are related to Iran and Persian history and Persian cuisine and the people and places and the smells and textures. Because it's very confusing. I really did not think that I would be 36. And have not gone to Iran. I really thought that this would be something that I would have done. I always felt like, oh, I'm going to get there. I'm going to get there. And it's. I think the older I get, it's like, it makes me. It's more apparent that it's a missing piece. It's very confusing to be writing about a culture, speaking the language, studying the food, trying to spread. And that's really, I think, a part of my job as someone who's first generation Iranian-American is to kind of spread the word. Spread light on a culture that is not really viewed in the best light, especially in the States. And it's often misunderstood. And obviously, I think an easy way to do that is through food and through showcasing that culture. I have no idea. I did try to get to Iran, by the way, I should mention. Seven years ago, it was 2019. And I went through the whole process. I got my citizenship. I, like, went to D.C. I did a whole. My citizenship birth certificate, because that's how I have to go. That's why it was always tricky for me. I can't go through a visa. I'd have to go as a citizen. And then there's the kind of more complicated matter where they wouldn't acknowledge dual citizenship. But when I was ready to go and had the whole kind of trip pretty planned, and it just was not a great time, especially. It hasn't been a good time for many, many decades now. So I have not gone. And I still have to. I still have to believe that I will get there. Because I really think about it all the time. And I just. The amount of, like, accounts and videos I save and things that I. I mean, even now, it's like I have this habit that I've developed in the past few weeks where I asked my mom. I had some family come from Iran. I said, please bring me two things. I never asked for anything. That's a lie. I always asked for saffron. But I'm like, I had to ask for two additional things. I said, I need lavashak, which is the kind of Persian leather fruit, which is incredible because they make with such, you know, flavors that are distinct to that part of the world, like barberries. Yeah, that sweet-sour. Sweet-sour. And dried Persian plums, aloo, which are amazing because they're, like, salty and sour and a little sweet. And you freeze. I freeze them, which. And I eat them frozen. So they're kind of like this chewy, jammy, salty. It just makes you salivate. It's so delicious. So I find my own little ways to kind of maintain that connection. But Andy, can I say to you that your yearning for that and it translates not only in the way that, you know, you write those extraordinary recipes and are a conduit to that culture, like your extraordinary Noro's feature that you did in the New York Times, but that yearning for flavor, comes across not just as, like, transmitting that culture, but through everything that you do. And so sometimes it's, like, that thing that we have that, you know, we think is our kind of weakness or spot. And we all have that. It can be our greatest strength. So you're. You know, even if you're not there or have not been there, you are decoding that and helping people realize that all around the world. And then I think you should be. I've never thought about it that way, but that is a, I I will start from this day on to kind of look at it that way because it is a drive for me to try to do good for that culture. Well, you do plenty. This episode of Travelling Through is sponsored by Capital One. Capital One cardholders are passionate about unforgettable experiences. Together, we partner to connect these curious travellers to world cultures through expert-guided journeys. From the peaks of Machu Picchu to the grand architecture of Vienna, these once-in-a-lifetime trips take you somewhere truly off the beaten path. Through Capital One entertainment, eligible cardholders can book exclusive experiences and so much more, all while earning elevated rewards. Saver cardholders earn 8% cash back, and Venture X earns 5x miles. Thanks to Capital One, your dream getaway is one step closer. Last year, you came and visited me in Milan. I think you were one of the first people to come and see the terrace with the little garden, and we had a little aperitivo. Milan, I've spent more time in than any other city in the world, outside of New York. Really? I've been to Milan, I don't know, 40 times. Really? There was a period where I feel like, because I've been going since I've gone, before I was an adult, and last year I think I was there like four times. There was this, for some reason, it just has taken me a lot to Milan. And I love Milan, I think it's an underrated city. I think you were headed to Liguria, actually, with Pete. Yeah. I was going with my husband, and I had been to Liguria before, but I had gone there for a story, and it was very, you know, how it is. It's like, you're in and you're out, and it was just very quick, and I just had to kind of cover the spots that I needed to get to. And this time we had a little more time. And I, again, have been lucky to kind of travel up and down Italy, and I think I have a love, I don't want to say hate, but I have a tension with Italy, because it's the country I've spent the most time in, and I've been to the most. The tension is the food. Design, fashion, so many things. My favorite beaches, the rocky beach, I love all of that. I do sometimes have tension with the food. And it's Liguria less so. I loved Liguria. I didn't have too much tension with the food. The thing that I have to accept, and it's a one-way tension, obviously, I don't think Italy has a problem with me, it's that. Because it's so regional, and because it's so kind of divided in that sense, very, Italy is more so than I think most countries. I have to remember that when I'm in a region, you have to accept that there will be a kind of sameness. There will be a kind of, let's say, consistency that I will kind of get tired by, that I don't feel maybe in other countries. And in Liguria, I was very happy to have handkerchiefs with doused in pesto, and then trofie with pesto, and then, you know, pesto was with every meal. And that was totally fine. I wanted to kind of find the best pesto. And I had focaccia every day. And there's. I have to accept like that, well, that's like, we're in that region. And this is also what makes this country so great. I think also there are some places like, I went to Sicily, and Sicily, I really built it up, and it was incredible. I loved all the kind of water moments. I loved the kind of. The city of Palermo, I love, love Palermo. I think like being in Sicily and going to Syracuse, that was just amazing because it felt so raw, and it felt just so special, and it really felt like, you know. Did you get to go to the Catania fish market by chance? I went to the Catania fish market. I spent time in Catania. I mean, food in Catania is amazing, and it's intense. We drove all. We did a full loop. Oh, cool. We did a full loop. There were a lot of things in the. In the middle, we didn't get to that I wanted to. I think all the kind of. We had so much. Well, me. Keith doesn't drink amazing Sicilian wine. I think the pastas. I had some amazing pastas. I think what confused me about my time in Sicily and why I need to go back was because I left a little bit, I wouldn't say disappointed, but confused because I felt like this has some of the most incredible produce in the world. And yet there was a kind of a heaviness to the food that I was confused by. And I was kind of searching for more of a kind of maybe lighter, airier moments. But I also had the thing that I think about constantly in the summer, which is Sicilian granita. Or I shouldn't say Sicilian granita. Granita. And it was. I didn't know this is what you were going to say. I didn't know that we shared an ultimate love of. Granita. Mulberry granita is my favorite thing in the whole world. Mulberry granita, fresh almond. I mean. Yeah, fichi too. Also fantastic with that earthiness. I would take that over pretty much over any Italian sweet, period. And I would definitely take it over gelato. There is. Having that on its own or with brioche, it was amazing. I think about. Because I've never experienced in the States like that. And I'm not talking. I'm not talking about the flavors. I'm talking about really about. There's a texture that just. I hope there's something here, but I have not found it yet. Maybe there's something in New York you're aware of. I think you're absolutely right. I think it is one of those things that is an only in. It is only. I don't know why it's so mercurial. On the Aeolian Islands, which the island's north, there's an island called Salina and has a particular mulberry, a green mulberry. You know, the thing that I think about with mulberry granita and mulberries in general is that they're not shelf-stable. No. They're so fragile. No, they're like instant jam. They're just instant, like. And so you make it into a granita. It's those hot days. It has that unique, you know, inky quality, that depth of flavor with the panna, with the cream. It's like. It is rich. I mean, I don't like to say favorite anything, but if I was to refer to anything, it's that. And I have very happy memories around it, too. But I couldn't agree with you more. There's a creaminess to it without any dairy. Without any. It's very confusing. I will say, like, we're talking about mulberries, and the mulberries are also a big part of that area, also in Persian culture. That's right, of course. Dried mulberries. Dried mulberries. Although I love the fresh ones, I'll say that. But I have to just. Because it's you, I will say it on the record, and I've never admitted this, but when I was at Chez Panisse, no one knew. But Sue, who was the lead pastry chef, they, for some reason, even though they had a fridge in their pastry station, the walk-in, one of the walk-ins, the back walk-in, had, like, the trays where they held their mulberries, and I just would go in, because I had to go in, or I'd have breaks, and I just would have to, like, snack on mulberries. And I only. One time, someone. This is, like, can people not eat the mulberries? And I just was like, I will never admit it. Can I just tell you, this is, like, a moment of confidence. I'm really sorry, Alice, but, you know, it was the day of the year for Bastille Day, right? Yep. Where they made the mulberry, like, ice cream. I went back there and tucked in, and there is a photo of me, because I would be the person that, that year, that would serve, that, yeah, out the front of, and sell the ice creams, but I pilfered it as well, because it was such, it was just that, that perfect thing. It was pure. You couldn't. And, you know, the other thing about that, that mulberry is, do you remember the mulberry tree that they got it from? Oh, my God, it was crazy. Held up by, like, I don't know, planks of wood, and it was this just immense tree, I guess maybe in Sonoma or somewhere. That is, that is really amazing. There is a mulberry tree. There is a mulberry tree in New York that I have, that I sometimes will go, it's a, we're slowly getting at that time, in, like, another month or two, I'll be walking past that tree, and I'll be waiting. I just planted two weeping mulberries, because I want a mini tunnel. I mean, it's ridiculous, but considering I have a terrace, but I was talking to the nursery, and they were like, but you want a fruiting weeping mulberry, because they think of it as ornamental, like, why would you want a fruiting one, because, and to do a tunnel, because they're going to drop, the berries are going to drop and stain, and that's exactly what I want. I love that. I just want it to be messy. I love. So I only just did it a couple of weeks ago. Anyway, mulberries, I mean, I think that food people who really understand, like, the fragility of a flavor completely get it with a mulberry. Absolutely. I mean, it's a, I remember, God, we're going to talk, this is the mulberry episode. I remember, I gave Keith the mulberry, for the first time, and he was like, what is this? I was like, think of it as, like, this kind of, like, instant jam that it's going to, like, it just trembles and just, in your mouth. Like, it's so fragile and so delicate and so distinct. Like, it doesn't taste like a blackberry. It definitely doesn't feel as seedy. It definitely is more interesting than a raspberry. No, we don't have a raspberry, but I love it. You know, Everyone that's a food person, like Italy, needs to go to Japan. And I went with my family several years ago, just before the pandemic, actually. And I have this memory in Kyoto because, you know, Australian family, the time that they can get off really is between Christmas and New Year's. And so New Year's is when the whole country is shut down. So it's kind of like. Really? Shut down. Yeah, they are not open. No. And I have two, like, vivid memories on the family spectrum. One of which is in the Kyoto market before the kind of market closed down for the year. There was, there's a hoshigaki stand, which are dried persimmons. And the dried persimmons are kind of amazing because, you know, they eat them at New Year's, I believe, or in the festive period. But, you know, they're a fall fruit, as we know, and they peel the skin and then hang them in like, I guess, a moist or maybe dry spot and then massage the sugars out. And so you get the world's best dried fruit. Maybe you're going to go with dried mulberries, but I'll go with. No, no, no. I would take that as a vert dried mulberry. And my sister loves. She loves a bit of dried fruit. She's also kind of an athlete. Anyway, I went and bought my year's supply of hoshigaki, which, by the way, is the Rolls Royce. Oh, totally. That's expensive. And comes with a price. Exactly. So anyway, I'm hitting them away. And then she just thinks that she's found a bunch of dates or something, or apricots, and she eats them all. So that was like, I had to have a fight with my sister in 10 years. And then we had a huge blow up in Kyoto about hoshigaki. So it's called the hoshigaki affair in my family. But, I mean, I'm sure. You've got more experience of that than I do in Kyoto. Well, I do think, like, I think if you love food, if you love design, if you love really just anything, like Japan is, that should be on your radar. And I had never gone my, I went my first time. I went, I've gone twice, both times with my husband, Keith. And he had gone before. But I think it was more work related. Yeah, and Keith comes from a design perspective. Yes, and he comes from a design perspective, and he worked in editorial for me. And I'm definitely more of a planner in terms of, like, the travel. And so our first time we went, and I'm not someone who wanted to kind of, I'm not, I knew I was not going to see and try to go to so many different places and go up and down Japan in the two and a half weeks we were there. But we went to Tokyo, we went to Kyoto, and we went to a kind of an onsen town, Kinosaki. It was great. Kyoto, we went to the moss temple. There, Saiho-ji. And part of it, I have to admit, the reason why I was so interested, because there's so many incredible kind of gardens, obviously, in all of Japan, and especially Kyoto, was because a friend told me, like, oh, well, it's very hard to get in. So I was like, I want to get in. But it was like, oh, you have to write to them, or you have to have someone write on your behalf for them to accept you, because there's a very, very short amount of visitors they allow. And then once you're there, you have to kind of spend like 10, 15 minutes to kind of trace calligraphy. And then once you're done with that, I think you do a prayer, and then you can see the garden. So there's definitely a process. I'm thinking about this space because I just got a text message from Becca Parrish. Becca's a publicist in New York City. Yes, and a dear friend. And I knew that she was going to Japan for the first time. And I said, look, like, you have all the lists. Like, you don't need my thoughts. But I'm going to tell you one thing. When you're in Kyoto, you go to this place. And she went, and she wrote me this note just a few days ago, being like, I am so happy and grateful you told me it was the most amazing experience. And I really felt like that. There's nothing I've ever seen in my life. What was it like? It was just incredibly vibrant and this verdant green and this calm, which you will kind of. I've kind of experienced that calm in so many gardens, but it was this kind of evenness and care. And you see all the people maintaining it. And it just, it made me feel actually that the letter, the waiting, the calligraphy, the prayer, it still wasn't enough. I would have been happy to go through a lot more obstacles to be granted permission to kind of view this. It was the most calming experience I felt. I felt throughout that trip. Well, can I tell you that, like, as someone that works in a travel company, the least calming place to work with and for is Japan. Japan, because they don't want visitors. For exactly that reason. And sometimes I think it's like a really good thing to do to have a balance with Japan. My big advice there is if you can get those types of experiences or see like a national living treasure, a master at craft, then that's kind of. It's hard to do that. It's hard to get a lot of those. It's very difficult. Yeah. But also people get a bit of FOMO when they're in Japan. And that can be like not the best thing. So I think if, you know, people that get all of those lists from all of their friends. Too much. It does sometimes disappoint you because you have this sense that something is better around the corner. So I always think, you know, planning is important. A couple of things a day, but don't plan Japan. And within an inch of your life. No. I went there last year with Veet after we were in Mongolia and we were kind of exhausted. And we were staying at like, admittedly, one of the best hotels ever, the Bulgari in Tokyo. So super fancy. But we hadn't planned anything. And it was the middle of summer. And actually, that was one of the most relaxing things I've ever done in that center of that city. Precisely because, you know, there's such a level of quality there. It's very hard to go wrong. Yeah. But if you're racing around and thinking, oh, you're exhausted. You can't. I was always, every day, that first trip, I was exhausted every day in Tokyo. No, exactly. Not in Kyoto, but. And I think that, like, people, you know, if you're lucky, not everyone can go multiple times. But don't jam everything in or try to control it to every degree because otherwise you're kind of missing out. And I just think Japan is, like, counter-intuitively, that's the way to approach it. Yeah. I think the one thing to remember with Japan. And I kind of gathered this after the first trip and applied it to. Well, the funny thing is after the first trip, Keith was like, oh, like, you love it so much. I'm like, I love it. I love it so much where during that trip, I was like, I'm extending my trip an extra week without you. And he left. I remember when you did that. I was like, I'm staying an extra week without you. He's like, why? I'm like, because you don't eat pork or beef. So get out of this country and let me eat all the things. Right. And it was perfect. And he totally understood. But I remember when I came back, he's like, it's like, are you sad? Like, it's probably going to be like, we probably won't go there for a long time. And then we get married the next year and we have our honeymoon in Japan. So it was, I was like, no, no, Japan's part of our life now. But I do have some thoughts on it for anybody who's going to Japan for the first time, which is like you said, you don't kind of over plan. I'd say one also thing is like, try to end your trip in Tokyo. I don't think. I say that because for me, I want to shop. And I will shop wherever, but I think like it's with Tokyo, there's so many things that I end up buying. Yeah. Well, this is what I was going to say. I was going to say to you. Keith had to pull me out. He's like. Literally the same, because I think it's genius to say actually leaving, like ending in Tokyo. And yeah. I really do because, you know, what you're referring to is what I was going to say to you. It is like, have you been to these basement department store food courts? Of course you have. That is like a wild food experience. I would say Japan's probably the only time in my, I've definitely did it in my life, but in my thirties where, because usually it's been by myself, where Keith will be like, are you okay? Like, are you okay? It just like, there's this, because it's too much. It's partially the same thing happened with Veet. He was like, what is going on? It's too much. Cause it's like, wait, so there's all this food. It's all beautiful. It's sweet. It's savory. It's all these different things I want to try. And then there's this other element where it's like, it's all gorgeous and it's all perfect looking. And then the things where it's takeaway, it's all wrapped perfectly. So then I'm obsessed with like the paper and every little thing I'm just like, this is too much simulation. And so like I have to buy a pack of cigarettes and smoke. It's like you can get like the perfect musket grape for like the week or it's the perfect white peach. That's all you're going to afford. Oh my God. I know. I went wild there as well. Okay, Andy, we'll do, we'll do a fast few questions at the end we ask everyone. And the first instinct is the right instinct, so don't overthink it. Where's a place you would always return? Paris. A place you'd never go back? Marrakesh. Oh, oh, oh, I'm not even going to go there. I didn't say Morocco, I said Marrakesh. Okay. Where's the place you've felt most at home? I mean, outside of New York? Yeah. Outside of your home. Outside of New York. Like there's a lot of places. Oh, I hate to say it. Paris. Yeah. Well, it's most out of place. There's not necessarily a bad thing. Orlando. Oh, well, yeah. Favorite hotel or memorable, most memorable hotel? Oh, Paris. Yeah. I mean, I've been to Paris a lot. I've been to Paris a lot. post-Frenchin', I mean, think it was just a whole perfect experience the meal was perfect the room was perfect the amount of fog was perfect California of it all yeah yeah it really just it was a reminder of just how you know I've traveled so much and will continue to but the state that I'm from is is really special okay so I was thinking I almost want to give you a special dispensation to not answer this question but I'm gonna make you answer it again first instinct and rather than favorites let's say memorable restaurant meal taste okay there is a restaurant in Kyoto and is a kind of place called um barangkat tiny tiny spot and you sat around the bar I think there was maybe one two top and it was delicious I think that was my favorite meal and I'd say that and suado only because it's in the past um couple years were two restaurant meals that I had that were perfect the suado is also an izakaya spot the more memorable things I think of in my past are the mundane the things that are so simple you'd never think it's like having a pomegranate uh juice vendor juicing and then Kamal putting some salt in it and giving it to me to like take a swig it's like things like that where it's there's an unexpectedness that uh felt good museum cultural institution the Louisiana museum obviously and and uh just outside of Copenhagen is an amazing one and the Bordel museum in Paris what's that one oh it's like all these incredible busts and statues what about shop or market what does that mean like I either can shop or I can go to the market like a shop or a market like why yeah shop oh oof my god that's so hard um yeah it's a market just like market wise um it would be honestly it would be like a fucking like isitan men's in in Japan like okay sorry it's like a complete thing like I loved it also I think shopping has become so sad in so many parts of the world and not there it's true it's like amazing and like kind of men's shopping is like feel I feel like the men have it better there than women almost full stop I agree where would you most like to spend a weekend week month a year a weekend would be in Iceland a week would be in um Berlin uh a month would be in Japan and a year would be in Paris I ask this question and take it as as you have however you first understand it what are you traveling through right now oof I'd say uh this is a year of a lot of big changes and shifts for me personally and uh and also I I would say my career so I can't get into detail too much quite yet but I think one of those things is doing another book and finishing that up and I'm excited uh to kind of bring that to the world and I'll go through that again and a few other kind of things that um I'm I've been working on privately or I should say with many others for a while now that uh eventually I'll be able to kind of share with with everybody soon but um big moments coming for Andy um well seeing as though I know you're about to finish the book I'm so grateful for you making all this time to come and chat my friend thank you and uh I actually hope that we get to travel together I know I feel like we'd be good travelers like India again you know it will either be terrible or amazing no I think it would be amazing because we're good eaters I feel like we're both I think we're both night owls no actually I'm a morning person but what I I'm a morning person and a night owl okay well then actually that's true I'm like I get up early but I also I can stay up late now well yes okay now I understand what you're saying yeah um no for sure but we're gonna do it I can't wait thank you friend thank you thank you so much ♪ ♪