Andrew McMahon

this episode is brought to you by palm olive family time isn't just the big moments it's weeknight dinners sitting around the table everyone talking all at once so when the plates are empty and the sink is full use palm olive ultra palm olives most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 of grease leaving your dishes sparkling clean and the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together shop now at palm olive.com my entry point to making music was like a little kid you know and like it was it was like a it was a grief outlet initially you know it was like and what was that i had my uncle who was like kind of really central a central figure in our family's life passed away at a at 39 you know and and i was a kid i wasn't i wasn't i think i was eight maybe turning nine at the time and the piano became the place that i put that bad time how um connected do you feel to like where you came from like musically speaking that's a tough one to answer i mean honestly well i mean honestly like i feel connected in the sense that so much of of coming up in that scene taught me how to do what i do right it like like i don't think if i didn't have to come up against being like the kid with the piano playing at the warp tour to like middle fingers in the air and all of that i don't think it would be as tough as i am now you know but even then it was like i was so confused when drive-thru wanted to sign something corporate because i didn't even know who drive-thru records was you know i didn't even i didn't listen to punk music i did other than like growing up in orange county and like blink and you know like we obviously that was like in the water there and so you i heard those songs and liked those songs but it wasn't those weren't the bands that i followed and so when all of a sudden we were on bills with like finch and newfound and i was like i don't know i don't know i don't know and you guys i was like how does anybody even like our band and you know like it didn't make sense to me at the time yeah now it makes perfect sense you know like but i think like i don't think that like i think now when you read when you look at the scene now it's like oh something corporate was a part of that scene but at the time it was like it was we were like you know outliers yeah it was you know but in a weird way i think that was like kind of punk rock in a way you know it was one of the appeals for sure like you guys were like i think we had a lot of fun and we had a lot of fun and we had a lot of fun and we had a lot of fun and we had a lot of fun and we had a lot of time that things were like really marketed as in categories because that's how it was back then like like now it's different like kids stream so it's a it's a playlist yep and it's got everything on it it's a youtube playlist it's got everything on it it's a it's kind of like if you go into my pantry you're gonna see like a bunch of different categories of food and like this these are snacks yep these are ingredients to cook meals these are and you you if you organize that way and you go kind of like oh music is similar it's like it gives us different nutrients for different things and it feeds different things at different times some stuff is a snack some stuff is a fucking meal you listen to a record it's like more so if we zoom out and we realize like the marketing aspect of our career um and how at the time we were marketed yeah and we were eager to we were eager to play so if someone said hey there's this uh warp tour you're like i know warp tour i'm from fucking orange county of course i know warp tour i think we can get you on there you're like great yeah i mean it was i mean that was the thing it was never even in our like we never even imagined that for ourselves right yeah yeah like i mean i was like listening to like semi-sonic and the counting crows and then folds you know and and and i and i had gone to see newfound i'd taken like a girlfriend to see newfound glory and i was like and i was really into it i saw him open for face to face i think i maybe i was a senior it was maybe a year after i graduated and i was like oh this is sick i've never been to a show like this you know and then when i saw that newfound was on the roster for drive-thru and they were reaching out really eager to sign us i was like i went to that show those kids would kick the shit out of my band you know like that was how i you know i was like there's nobody's gonna mosh into something but i think to your point at that stage of the game it was like there was there was sort of a a cult around the labels and yeah and and the bands that were a part of this thing and it mattered more i think to fans that you were a part of the the cult then it then it necessary not to say that the music didn't matter the music mattered but i think we were able to sort of skate being sort of a softer band that played ballads and played the piano because people were like well if drive-thru thinks they're cool and newfound is going to take them on tour then they must be okay you know despite there were definitely people in that in those camps that were like what is this shit you know like we got a lot of that and i i you know and it it did it toughened me up and it toughened all of us up and and definitely made us want to be better at playing and certainly it influenced our music and once we were in the sort of the swirl of it and these were the bands that we were touring with and like loved being on the road with those bands and made some lifelong friendships and things that that that part of it i think is is still so deeply sort of in my bones yeah it's funny everyone has to be like i don't know i don't know i don't know has that experience though yeah like what is this shit we did too true like we did too so did newfound glory yeah so did fucking yeah you go to some place and you are an outlier somewhere doesn't matter well i think that was i mean i also think that was what was was sort of a unifying thread with those acts and as we got into like having deeper personal relationships with the guys in those bands was that there was a thread of like well all of us didn't totally fit somewhere yeah you know and and so i think and and now i see that so clearly like oh that's that's what bonded us to this music and these bands but i think it's also what bonded the fans and the sort of culture that came up around it was this sense that it was like well we're not like it was kids that weren't like in like they didn't buy into like fully into pop music but they like pop music but they wanted a different they wanted a different texture and a different you know and they wanted to feel like it was for them and it wasn't for everybody you know even though sort of we were all a part of an era where it started becoming for everybody but i do think that there was this universal thread of like yeah we don't fully fit in and we found some place to fit in and and that was really beautiful it's funny i always think about like it was all pop music oh yeah in my opinion and they were love songs and you know whatever it is like i never i i was never conflicted no about what i did 100 in the sense of like i want to make music that's like at the scale of like a global successful artist totally which is popular music which is pop music which is pop songs which is when you think of whether it's like you love the beatles or you love tom petty or you love uh the backstreet boys yeah or whatever it's music that serves millions yeah well that was the funny thing for me going into it because that's what i thought of us as like a pop rock and roll band you know and so and and it was funny to all of a sudden be in a culture where there was like people talking about selling out and and and and they're like you know like selling out and that was such a thing i mean i'm yeah i mean i remember like oh yeah you know and i remember people being like you know saying things like that whether it was to us or to other bands and i was just like what do you mean like reaching more people you know it's like it's also you've known about my band for three seconds yeah yeah yeah and you've suddenly become an expert on us totally and me as a person and my ethos and my morals and my values uh that you are saying i've i've changed after nothing has changed yeah by the way like there's no there's there's nothing concrete about art it's all this objective subjective yeah perspective driven unique thing that like if i stand on this side of the room and look at that painting or i stand on that side of the room and look at that painting or i get to the other side of the room and look at that painting or i get close up on it it changes every time yep and so with art it's interesting when you when you get into the commerce side of art which is a very interesting thing when you have people who are emotionally attached to something right so that's why i understand it i i'm not angry about it like when someone's like you this or that to me i'm like that's a that's an interesting perspective even if it's about me yeah right i mean i i always like i always laughed about it and i'm like yeah i'm not angry about it i'm not angry about it i'm not angry about it and there were things i may think i think and i don't know if you were the same but i think there were things that i was like sensitive to only by virtue of being sort of a part of this scene that we got adopted into that like where you're like well what are they gonna you know what are they gonna think if you know what i mean like i remember when hollister clothing launched they came to us because it was like you know it was a it was like a limited company brand right yeah like born in in ohio where i grew up but they wanted like southern it was going to be a southern california brand total southern california yeah and they were they were starting to launch stores and they wanted something corporate because we were like the socal band right and i remember us like talking about it it was just like and it was like a lot of that it was like well should we do this but it was like they were going to put something corporate t-shirts in hollister they were going to put our posters up there was going to you know so there was going to be thousands of stores across the country opening huge marketing yeah yeah and i remember us just being like you know you know and we were we're earnest and early 20s and like worried about what that was going to look like and eventually we're just like well fuck it like isn't our goal to get to as many people as we can it's not changing our music you know like we made the record already like like put our picture on the t-shirt and let's freaking go you know i think that was just a function of experience and um now you're this extremely accomplished experienced grown person i try to be right like think about it like like like you've lived a whole you've lived many lifetimes in the music business yeah i'd say like a few years as a lifetime the way i see it yeah and you've lived many many many lifetimes in the music business you are less sensitive less emotional about probably a bunch of things you would have been back then 100 and you're more sensitive and emotional about some things you probably didn't value as much back then true you know what i mean like i didn't value myself i think as much as i valued people's perception the perceived scene i thought i was a part of the perceived brands i thought mattered in that scene the perceived people i thought mattered in that scene the only thing the only reason i would value their opinion over mine is if i put them above me right right so i came into it like well i guess these are the people that decide yeah and i want i mean i just god i need to be whatever accepted or or i need to be whatever in my at the time because i had no experience i just came into the world from a small town in the middle of nowhere in maryland and i thought i knew nothing yeah instead of giving myself credit as an artist and going like who knows what i know but this is how i feel yep right like that's how i am more today yeah where i'm like i don't know what i know i know what i've experienced i could draw on that i'm not the all-knowing wise fucking older guy in a scene at all yeah i'm just i know what i've experienced yeah i know some concrete truths that have appeared over time you know what you like and i know what i like i know how i feel yep and so i can come from that now as a grown person in this business and go and this is how i feel if that changes yeah i'll let you know you know what i mean totally i mean it was interesting for me because like because i never felt like we fully fit in yeah in that in the scene that we sort of were a part of coming up it was like i was always trying to break out of it you know like not in a not out of a lack of respect for it because it gave me everything you were just trying to find your b people yeah but i was i was just like i was like i feel like there was because as you probably well know it was like and you guys managed to make pop music that that exploded beyond sort of where we all came from i i think there was a there was this weird thing like you know when something corporate would go to like radio or it's like well we weren't a punk band we didn't make punk songs but there was like there were like four or five slots for punk music on the radio right at that point right and i was like but we don't make that you know we're like making like sort of like pop rock and roll music we were probably if we weren't in this scene would have been marketed in a completely different way but in in a sense i don't know that it's true i think it was much more helpful than it was limiting but as far as breaking through to the other side where more people heard what i was doing it was limiting in that sense like and in reaching the larger sort of popular culture and i was always just like why am i having this conversation with my label about oh well they're already playing these punk records i'm like did you guys listen to our record like there's nothing punk about what we're doing like those are our friends and those are the bands we tour with but like that's not what we do and truthfully i think the reason i've constantly rebranded and shifted sounds and names and all those things has been like almost out of an effort to just like well where else can i go you know like is there is there another horizon or is there an another audience like like let's let's build this culture of fans who like what i do but let's go you know let's go on you know exploring and see where what else there is and i think that's like largely why jack's mannequin came about was like we were burnt and i was like well what if i make just like a totally different sounding record with my same voice you know and and where does that go and i and i it did i mean it did help me reach sort of new audiences and i think every time i've rebranded and started a new project it's been a part of that exploration you know but it's been an interesting road you know because i'm always like i was like well i don't fit here i don't fit there you know and and for years nobody knew where it put me you know which was this has been kind of my brand weirdly at the end of the day yeah but you love making records i love making songs you love writing songs it's just songs for me and you like to perform love it right so what i hear the value is i want to make music yeah and i want to find places where i can make music and i'm not limited to the structure of an idea that other people have i actually the only idea i have is i want to make records and make music and perform it and that's what i love to do and the survival in you right the animal that just goes forward and finds the food and water and sun is like where can i go to do this thing that i need to do which is make music and i want to make music and i want to make music and i want to make music write songs perform yeah and that to me is like the amazing thing about drive yeah well it's like you know my entry point to making music was like a little kid you know and like it was it was like a it was a grief outlet initially you know it was like and what was that i had my uncle who was like kind of really central central figure in our family's life passed away at a at 39 you know and i was a kid i wasn't i wasn't i think i was eight maybe turning nine at the time and the piano became the place that i put that and so i've had a lot of time to think about this obviously it's like you know my 40s now and and it's like a two-part thing for me right so it's like the drive is one and i think it's all born of that that initial introduction to music which was it helps me connect to myself right it helps me sort of like dig find you know find the the subconscious things that i'm not dealing with in in my lived life and answer questions that are underneath the surface that i'm not really willing to face yeah you discover things yeah so it's like so it's that first but then it quickly became a way for a very awkward kid to belong somewhere you know it became a way for the youngest of five and a family of amazing athletes and you know and a lot of noise and a lot of chatter and you know like everyone's accomplishing things yeah and i'm just this weird kid that's not into any of that shit yeah you know and all of a sudden oh wait i'm a songwriter now yeah you know like and these things that i do at home that make me feel like whole you know like this puzzle piece that helps me understand myself now is also the thing that gets me external validation it helps me make friends win trophies you know yeah it helps me uh you know establish my my sort of place in the world what sports were celebrated in your house like what soccer big soccer big soccer house your siblings were just like my three oldest siblings were just gangster soccer players yeah dedicated they're the house ran around soccer everything i mean they could do anything it was like they skiing when when snowboards like i mean this is how old i am like snowboards had just been made you know like the first burton board comes out and now they're snowboarders and they yeah they could you know they they were i mean they're amazing and i'm like so close to my siblings my sister was like a you know she played basketball and field hockey and they you know and was really smart and i was just kind of this like like fat little kid who just like oh totally you know like like and i but i could play the piano and i could sing these songs and like you know so i would play and and my my sister's friends would come over and they'd be like what's going on over there like the chubby awkward piano playing a little brother yeah and like so i did theater and you know and like it's like a movie yeah and so from you know and that's still with me you know it's like it's still like i think i'm much more confident in who i am outside of music now than i've i've ever been and i'm much more settled in myself and i don't i don't need it for my identity yeah but good when i get into like writing mode and when i'm like when i'm really in it the drive is like find the song that makes you feel like you're telling some truth and find the audience the biggest audience possible for that song you know like that is still so baked in like and i and i you know like if i put out a song that i think is amazing and i'm and is so satisfying when i'm writing it and recording it and deaf ears i'm like it's fucking dead to me really yeah yeah like you know it really like i feel that i understand that you know and and in in this modern landscape it's like it really is taking a lot of effort i'm finally there like where i'm like okay worry about this second you know like the the fitting in the finding the audience worry about a second make the process yeah soulful make it about connection with with your collaborators right make it about connection with with whether it's another writer or the producer or the or the or the musicians that are playing on it have that be the first point but could we forgive me i'm just stopping because i pull i want to pull some things out because our careers are examples of the human process and growth yep and so it's a very um it's a bunch of things but that being said so you're i want to highlight experience with if something doesn't hit yeah This is what I hear. why i think you should this is why i think owning it is good i think you do own it but i think owning it is good some artists are afraid to own that because it makes them feel like they're less of an artist but that's not true so what i hear is someone who wants to do wants to have impact i want to feel like what i'm doing has impact yep and when i don't feel like i have what i'm doing has impact i need to examine it because it doesn't i don't want to waste time doing things that doesn't feel impactful it's not about money it's not about size it's about impact yeah and and what is perceived as valuable to a culture of people right so if i'm not making something that is not having an impact in the world i live in yep then what am i doing so i say that out loud because it's okay to be a serious guy like i look at myself and i go i'm super serious about some things and then there's other things I can identify that I don't care as much about. Yeah, yeah. And then it helps me organize and own like the parts that I'm serious about. Yep. It's funny too, because I think, and you tell me if you're different, but I think when I started in music, I don't think I really understood I was in a process, right? It was just, it was like this self-discovery, right? And like writing songs and working with the band and the garage and going to shows and all of that was like, I was just what I did, right? I think in my life now, I mean, it's taken me years of here. I was like, no, this was like, it was about time. It was like an effort and grinding. And you did all, like I did all those things because I loved it. And I did them more than most people. And that's how I got successful, right? It was like, I just, I put the time in because I was so in love with it. And I think what a lot of people don't realize is like, if you have a goal, but you're not in love. With the process of achieving that goal, you're probably not going to get there. And if you do, you're probably not going to be at the top of your field or whatever it is or whatever it is you're seeking. You're better off to seek something that's attached to some drive that makes you want to get up and do it all the fucking time. Yeah. That old, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. It's not true, but it is true. You won't suffer as much. You're going to work harder probably than anybody. That's so true. Because the organic nature of process in any process, including what we do is I always tell artists when I, when I talk to them at this company, at MDDN, we, we get a lot of conversations with developing artists. Like it's part of what we love to do. We love finding new shit. It's exciting. Good for, I mean, good. And it's an, and it's an, and it's an interesting thing to, in general, people don't believe something until it's materialized fully, fully developed, fully baked, fully cooked, fully in the world and on its third hit. Right. Yep. So on your first hit, they go, well, they, they write you off. Second one, they write you off. You know what I mean? So, so artist development's a funny thing. Cause you have to believe in things that don't exist yet. Yeah. Like a career. Yeah. And then you also have to acknowledge that like, just because someone isn't signed or they haven't had their first hit or whatever, it doesn't mean they don't have a career at the beginning. You have to look at it like more organic. So I always say we do what we can with what we have. And then we get more and then we do what we can with what we have. And what happens when you expand is just like in the gym, you go in the gym and you can lift a hundred pounds. And if you show up every week, in a few weeks, you'll be able to lift 110. And then in a few weeks, you'll be able to lift 120 and so on and so forth. This is not an analogy that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just throwing it out there. Yeah. Metaphorically speaking, you know, the muscles that we have. And the process of gaining that is, is, is just putting is reps. And then inside those reps, it's the quality of the rep. And then there's levels to it. Right. So when we're in a process, anyone can take this and apply it to themselves. Anyone listening right now, whether they're in a job or relationship, a health journey, whatever journey they're on, this applies to all journeys. We do what we can with what we have, where we are. You can say, I want to be there. And you can even go into a room and say, you're there. And you may get away with it for a long time, actually. The fake it till you make it. I don't believe in that. I believe that you have to believe in yourself and you have to do everything you possibly can with what you have. If your sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier. So you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. I agree with you. And I think, I think the trick of technology and like in the modern time that we live is for learning to forget the overlay of the technology. The technology for a second. Right. Right. I think there are shortcuts. There've always been shortcuts built in everywhere. Right. And whether it's, you know, now, you know, can you get it? Can you, can you get a viral thing to happen on TikTok? Whatever, whatever these things are. Right. But I think that there is, we lose sight of it when we get to in the weeds of like, well, what is happening right now in this moment that we can game to get where we need to get. Right. Like, I think all of that stuff existed, but the work still has to be there. It's what you're talking about. Right. Like you still have to wake up and want to write every day. If you want to have a career as a songwriter, you know what I mean? You still have to, you still have to go play hundreds of shows. If you want to have a career as a performer and you want people to buy tickets, like, and I think there is that, you know, it's like, I think we lose sight of that sometimes. And I, you know, I think it's swinging back in a way, but like all of like for when the obsession became with every label was like, well, let's, let's look at the data on the, on the, who, who's, who's, who's having this or that happening right now in this moment on TikTok. And you realize, well, like you might have a genius who's doing the work, who has that moment. And you might have a kid that just accidentally stumbled onto something. Who do you sign? Right. And it's like, I think the most important thing is what we're talking about, which is like the passion, the work, the hunger. Like I'm always keep an eye on hunger. That's like that. That to me is, is the thing. Do you want it? Yeah. That's what it takes. If I don't, if I like, if I don't have that hunger, I don't, it's like, I don't, I don't go. It's like, but when, when that starts, when I feel that inside of me bubbling up and it's like, oh, I'm hungry again. I want it. That's when I write good songs. That's when I come up with a thing that actually matters that people are paying attention to. And that gives me that satisfaction of like connecting to myself, connecting to the world, you know, to the community or to a larger group of people, you know, in the culture. That has to sort of proceed everything, you know, in every era of this business. And we've survived how many weird iterations. I mean, it's like we came up so many, you know, we, we came up and it was like, everybody was like, oh, Napster. Oh shit. You know? And you're like, oh, well that actually helped us. You know, like it worked for us. Right. It didn't work for the labels that were signing us. No. There's been so many of these watershed moments where it seems like the culture is going to upend everything. Now it's AI. Right. And that's, that's scary. Right. But. Is it going to supplant the guy and the, or the, or the, or the woman waking up every day and going, I love music so much. I'm just going to fucking write my heart out. That's going to win. You know, what's wild. I thought about the other day when you just said Napster and before that it was burning CDs. Remember, remember like, like our era in 2000 was burning. See, everyone would burn CDs and they'd write, you know, the name and whatever. And like, I'm just saying this, like, I don't care. people consume music no as long as you can get it to them that's all that matters also was dubbing tapes when we were in the 90s we would call radio stations with our cassette locked and loaded so that we could record the song that you wanted to hear and and then we would like that would be like oh like i'm not gonna wait around for the radio to play it and we would just dub the dub a tape off the radio there's never going to be in my opinion the way i look at it is this i've made peace with it and maybe and by the way like i say this is just my how i feel i'm not saying this should be applied anywhere because i understand where labels are coming from i understand where artists are coming from i understand where artist managers are coming from publishers blah blah blah blah blah blah everybody who's slicing up the turkey i understand where they're all coming from i have always looked at a bosquiat painting that he sold to somebody for five grand that's now worth 20 30 million dollars yeah that's changed hands a bunch of times and a bunch of people have made money off of it yep not bosquiat that painting that he made will never he will never have benefited and now his estate will work his name they'll they'll tell his name they'll they'll they'll they'll monetize his name because of those paintings and it all works together and it's the way that art it's the way of the good the bad and everything in between for art every devil is going to ride the shoulder of the artist right it is just the way it is and every artist is going to suffer and the ones who make it are still going to suffer and they're going to be they're also going to have in some way shape or form the benefit of the culture yeah recognizing their art as important and blah blah blah so it's always going to be something that you can never quite make sense of every which way and say well there's only one way we should do it this is how it would be fair but listen i think i i dude you've had decades of a career that like are are hard-earned yeah and we both come from a scene that kind of like got dismissed in a weird way as like uh totally kiddie music or something and it actually was artists making real records impactful records and like i said in a time where you couldn't track cd sales you couldn't track downloads you couldn't yeah so that didn't go on our scorecard no you've sold millions of records i sold me whatever it's still like is all a fraction of it got tracked yeah it was the beginning of the wild wild west of people being able to take you they wanted and i never had a problem with it but like we actually are feeling i think in this time the actual influence of our music oh my god yeah then more than we did at the time well i think i think the combination of age and being aware but actually see i mean seeing i like it was funny chris and i uh caraba we did a like reunion before we were young and all this stuff was happening and i was like but i love that guy we just said we're just homies and it was like let's go on tour together and i remember sort of in that moment being like feeling like we were at the beginning of a wave that was starting to sort of crest and then all of a sudden it was like we were young festival and all these things and it was just like whoa the appetite and it was it was and it made me appreciate it so much more i think like i don't know how you feel but seeing it come back around all of a sudden i was like i feel way more proud of it than i ever did at any point in my career absolutely i appreciate it more yeah and i think i finally go to all of us to you to me yeah um you know what you guys were like good you guys were like hard-working kids who wanted to do something impactful and you weren't always allowed to say that yeah you weren't allowed to be ambitious you weren't always allowed to to say that you just wanted to do something like where we started you just wanted to do something that felt valuable that felt impactful that would leave a lasting mark on the world the world and and that's a good thing it should be what we i mean whatever you're doing it's aspirational you want to leave your mark yeah and it's every human being deserves to try and put their signature on life and on and on the world and and carve out a little thing that feels like they made an impression what else are we here for yeah you know i mean i and i don't think it has to be big you know we don't you know it's just like what do you stand for yeah what do you believe in and how do you further that in what you do every day yeah how do you express yourself yeah and then what are you working on now like what are you here to talk about anything that you're i mean not really i mean i i so i we did this thing at red rocks last year called three pianos so i put out a book called three pianos which is sort of like about my relationship with the three most important pianos in my life and it sort of tells the stories of of my life my bands my music against the summer we did a red rock show uh so all three bands all three pianos on stage and that's cool we sort of move through like a set with each band and then everybody comes together and i'm bouncing from one piano to the next and all three bands are playing together and we're playing each other's songs never like i mean i've been a guy who's like at lucky best maybe four thousand tickets is like a huge show for me the big show yeah great i mean and i this is not me complaining i've been i'm so proud of my i'm so proud of what i've i've been able to do and the fact that i can feed my family doing it red rocks was like nine ten thousand people sold out sold out red rock sold out within minutes of the show and i was like because we got everybody together and it was like this beautiful thing where for me selfishly i got to live all of my music in one place with all the guys i made it with and for fans i think it was cool because there are people who've just followed this thing and have been so kind to go with me from one project to the next to have it all be in one spot so we're going to do three more of those uh in august so we're going to do philly uh chicago and long beach which i'll care for what you wish for because did they all sell out uh i think the first two are like close these are these are of course we're picked they're all bigger i think i think the first two will long beach is like it's a it's a venue that's just been built it hasn't even actually been finished yet so i'm kind of like hoping you know that that as people start seeing shows there that it'll be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god okay but it's it's gonna i mean it'll it'll do well it's gonna do great it'll be the biggest show i've sold in in la for sure it's gonna be great but yeah so those are those are going great i don't even know why i asked if it's all out but come red rock selling out is a is a super iconic it was it was one of the more important nights in my whole career it's incredible it was really special congrats and um so we're doing that like i'll do a bunch of sort of solo acoustic stuff just because i've like we've done these two years of reunion and reunions with something corporate over the last two years i'm kind of like craving sitting at a piano by myself in front of a crowd and just like winging it so i'll do a little bit of that this year and then we have two symphony shows in november for my foundation so i have a cancer survivor i have a charity called the dear jack foundation which uh we do programs for adolescents and young adults facing cancer so our big benefit this year is in denver and we're doing two nights with the denver symphony amazing yeah which is going to be cool be how long has it been now since you beat cancer it was 20 years this past summer jeez yeah can you believe that unreal yeah having that experience did it really make you like health focused like fuck no oh my god so how do you explain oh my god no i mean i i'm just saying like 20 years okay it was a nightmare 20 years cancer free is like it is is an accomplishment yeah and it's like it's an incredible thing to say thank you no how do you feel it how do you do that well initially in the worst way humanly possible i would i was like how hard can i part like the second i was off the leash like i did anything and everything to prove that i was alive you know you like i i mean i'm i'm talking like suits is there a water tower let's climb that shit you know what i mean like i mean just anything to put my physical person in danger for like five or six years i was just like that's what i want to do any wild man all the drugs all i mean really everything it was not everything uh but almost yeah everything i mean it was like yeah i wanted so badly to reclaim my existence and prove that i was untouchable that i and it was so unhealth i mean it was like thank god for my wife she saved my life she was like you are gonna fucking like go see a therapist now or you're on the street like you know like it was like and and i was like okay you know and that and that was like when my life post-cancer really started and that was probably five six years into my recovery wow and yeah and now it's like yes now i'm like i'm very health conscious and i i eat well and i'm i'm you know i'm either surfing or in yoga like every day like i'm just yeah and i and i care much more about it now i'm also like in my 40s now so i'm just like can i benjamin button this a little bit you know what i mean like can i work backwards like you are um i'm trying but uh you look great thank you and so do you i mean like having i think we've done a good job i was like i was like thinking about us on your first met yeah i mean you guys took us on a tour that i still to this day more than any other tour i've been on fans first saw me at that at the shows that we played with you guys i think it was like right before north came out our second something corporate record and you guys were so generous took us on that tour and i just think i mean i'm i mean we were freaking kids you guys were i mean it was such a fun it was awesome and it was awesome and it was a cool time and and i always felt you were exactly like you are now i was way more stoned well yeah but you were you were an open you were an open accepting positive person and that's what i've always kind of been drawn to i love it when i'm with someone i don't need to prove anything to it feels like for me i was we were coming up in a scene where it felt like every around every turn we had to prove something to someone and i was like what i just want to play music and i want to be successful and i want to have a shot to do the best i can and you did it to the fullest i mean that was i mean it was always impressive to us like watching how you guys ended up straddling that line and blowing past it you know and i and i think and at a time where like i like you're saying i think there was a propensity for people in that world to sort of like want what you guys had but also want to to you know to sort of shit on anybody that got it yeah because they were like they were in conflict with themselves yeah of course and i just i i just always had such an appreciation for it and the way that you opened the door for us like i mean you that was like you took us on an arena tour we'd i don't think it ever even i don't think we ever played in an arena and you took us out for like you know that i i think it was was it a lifestyle that was that was that a tour on the second album yeah it was the first arena tour we ever did yeah i mean and it was like i just remember like walking around we were walking around and like you know walking around and walking around and what what is it like the target center or whatever it is and just being like well this is crazy yeah you know and i was like secretly writing songs i think that we're going to become the jacksman i can record at my piano and sit in the hallways and we'd all run into each other in the hallways and it was like yeah it's i think it's what you guys have built is amazing the fact that we're sitting in your like sick offices like yeah you know like like and you and but i i think you guys you always had that like me i've always like i i i'm just sort of like i'm i'm scrappy you know what i mean like i i run lean but i'm always i'm always fighting it's like you guys built a fucking empire it's like and and i i have such an appreciation for the the mind the music and the mind of like how do we take this and you know raise up new artists and have our hands and things that that people wouldn't dream of it's really pretty cool thank you i i think it's just world building yeah hell yeah just building out your own little world and continuing to build on it like you have yeah and um and then what i've always found is i'm not in conflict with myself and when someone someone when it feels like like coming from that scene it felt like people were conflicted yes and i wasn't and so when i learned how to step away and just ask myself like how do i feel instead of how do you feel how does he feel yeah then i could make a decision that i felt good about yeah and not be conflicted even if that whole group of people who who've known me for all of two years yeah or five years or three seconds they still don't know me yeah i'm not here to hurt anyone i'm not here to to stop anyone i love that i'm not here to hurt anyone no yeah and i'm not here to stop anyone from living their very best life and of achieving all their dreams i am a cheerleader through and through for everyone i'm not in conflict with anyone i learned how to be secure in myself and that took time therapy yep all that same stuff you find a great person again what's the power of a partner your wife who believes in you and loves you she doesn't think party that go up on a tower and risking your life is cool when yeah it's this person she loves yeah and therefore she's not blinded by the fantasy of the rock and roll thing or fame or money or this or that do they just see a person they love and they go i want you to live a long time and be happy and this doesn't look like that yep and when you find more and more of those people my wife's been incredible in that way you double down on just being yourself yep and for me being me is not partying or being a rock star it's just like being happy yeah and for me happiness is a simple thing it's pretty simple it's like be in a place i like to be work with people i like yep do things i love and yeah be healthy it does feel good to be healthy what we were doing when we were younger is i think the risky behavior the destructive behavior all that is something like i don't value what is also like i think that i and i haven't given as much credit to the fact that it's like it's also like we were in our teens and our 20s yeah but it's like you just do that shit yeah but we got to do so much more of it because we had a license to you know it's like usually like well you're in college but you kind of gotta like pass yeah you know like for us you could pass and and excel at being an absolute fucking lunatic because people loved it yeah and it was fun you got you got celebrated and and and like and i i try now to give myself more forgiveness for some of that because it's like well no shit of course we did of course you know what i mean like the problem would be still like with time and maturity and family and all of these things to still be there i like i like to i mean i like to put my hand on the fire from time to time you know you know but like i don't want to live in it you know and i think and i think there's but it was kind of beautiful too yeah you know but yeah but there are things i'm just like what the hell was i thinking also you grow up and you realize like like what you've built your legacy with what you've built with your cancer foundation right what your your catalog of music yeah and your songwriting the next 20 years of your life because the legacy of that you've already built is so concrete and strong in my opinion what you do on top of that you're so much stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger closer to game-changing results from effort that is not uh it's not a stretch for you because you've been doing it for so long yeah it's not a stretch for you to go write a brilliant song it's not a stretch for you to go and discover something artistically because you've been in this right and you understand the process so much yeah that's the most exciting thing to me this is what excites me now is that the legacy that you've built is so it's so concrete and foundationally sound in what you've achieved that it's not a stretch that your cancer foundation won't do something incredible because it's set up and has been established it's not it's not a stretch that you artistically won't do something incredible so that's the interesting part is the optimist looks forward and goes all i see is possibility yep the 30 years i spent getting here that was actually the hard part if i said you have to go back and redo all of it you're going to have to go back and redo all of it you're going to have to be like fuck i don't think i can well i think now it's like big swings right i think that's i think that's what's fun now it's like when what we were doing when we were kids we were taking a big swing but in a way we didn't really like it was like well yeah of course everybody wants to be in a band like why wouldn't you know like i think now it's kind of like okay i have this sometimes it's daunting right like you sometimes you have a catalog of songs and you're like man it's hard you've got to beat these things you know so there's there's a little i still carry that with me like i still want to write a better song than the ones i wrote before that that's a challenge but it's also like but what else is there right like what else can i get into the mix with that brings me joy you know that's fun and like you say world building and gets me to work with weirdos that i would never have dreamed of working with like how can i use some of that legacy to get me in rooms with strange people that bring exciting things into my life and and that's kind of like how what's the new sandbox how do we play yeah because that's what that's what the joy of this life has been is that like my job has been to play yeah you know and you had strong i mean something corporate jack's mannequin and your solo stuff is all like strong it's all like equally they they rival each other do you know what i mean which is a hard thing to do it's because i'm always competing with like your fan with myself all the time but your but your your fan group right they all know you from different things and they know you for all three yeah but you could have people who came in on something corporate or that came in on jack's mannequin and it's really interesting um it's not not not everyone achieves that but um so uh what are the dates of the shows they're in august yeah they're yeah yeah yeah there's i think it's the last three weekends in august tickets on sale tickets on sale and then yeah and then more will come up uh solo dates will come up and and whatnot but but yeah uh i'm never good at promoting things what's your main instagram amn the wilderness there we go yeah we promoted your instagram yeah it's awesome dude well andrew thanks bro thanks for coming awesome thank you for listening to this episode of artist friendly you can also watch the episodes on spotify spotify premium users get no commercial breaks on my show make sure to follow like and comment because i always read the comments Thank you.