Andrew Lownie Just Changed His Entire Perspective On Princess Diana

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. We're back. So, actually, the very first thing that I can remember in my life, like when you go back and you can't really remember when you're like two years old or one years old or anything like that. But the first thing I ever remember was across from my bedroom, my childhood bedroom was like a smaller room. It was like kind of like a half bedroom. So, my dad would use it early in the morning to like get ready in there and go to work and not wake up my mom. And I remember waking up and walking in the room and he was sitting down in front of the TV and the TV was playing Diana's Funeral. And you saw it was the part where they were driving. The hearse up the highway with the flowers and they had to stop and pull all the flowers off the windshield. And I walked in and he didn't realize I walked in and I said something to him like, what's this, dad? And he panicked because he realized, oh, shit, I have to explain death to my son now. I've been caught watching a program about the royals. Right. What's my son going to think of me? I'm a closet royalist. He's like, does this make me gay? No, but he, so he was like explaining, he was like, oh, they're driving the princess to heaven or something like, it was actually like pretty good thinking on his feet to do that. I was like, okay, that makes sense. But it, because it was my first memory, it was something that like later in my life, I started to get really interested in her life and what she had done. And she was, again, like everyone, a flawed individual, but a really fascinating character. Someone who was from the inside of society, but outside the royal family. Knew the world a little bit outside the royal family, but had to come in really young and then even like had her own voice and they didn't like that. Yeah. Well, that's really interesting what you say, because I mean, I think of all members of the royal family, she's the most interesting. And that's a really good example about how a narrative was created. I mean, and people clearly have very strong views either way about her and more so even than Meghan Markle. But, you know, when she died, I kind of had bought into the narrative, which was presented very much by Charles. And we, this has now all come out that she was, you know, she was very disaffected and a bit nuts. And now increasingly, I'm, the more and more I read about her, I think she was wronged. I mean, you know, Charles was having this affair with Camilla all the way through, right? I mean, he never really, she was kind of just a rude mare, I mean, for breeding purposes. And she was a sort of lamb to slaughter as a young girl. And though sometimes she overreacted and was a bit emotional. My sympathies are much more now with Diana than they are with Charles. And that was, you know, that was very much a campaign. I mean, he paid, he supported, for example, a book by Penny Junior, a British writer, to basically discredit her, to say she had psychiatric problems. And, you know, she was trying to do her defense by doing her interview on Panorama and stuff. But my views have very much changed. And funnily enough, yesterday, I was reading a book that I've been sent wearing my agent's hat about Diana. Which book? Well, it's not been published yet, but it's a series of tapes that she did with people before she died in preparation for a book. With Morton? No, no, with someone else. But a bit like the Morton, but actually going much further than the Morton in terms of some of the things that she was talking about. And, in fact, some of the stuff was so sensational that no publisher would touch it and no agent would touch it. And so they kind of come to me as one of the few people who is mad enough to perhaps do this. So, and I think clearly the timing for that is the 30th anniversary of her death, which is next August. Did you just read it or have you heard the tapes too? Well, I'm halfway through the book and I haven't. I've asked to see the, I've seen transcripts, but I haven't heard the tapes. So I've asked to see the tapes. And you say, because she famously obviously passed tapes through an intermediary to Andrew Morton that later came out and was the genesis of the biography. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you say that the claims in this, and I won't make you go on the record with stuff that's off record, but you say the claims in this are way more salacious than things we've heard in the past. Yes. Really shocking things. And I mean, again, you know, I've got to be careful by rotation. So you've got to, I've got to check up where I can verify the information to some things that said, but it kind of rings true. I mean, she talks about her childhood, being sexually abused as a child, for example. Um, uh, and, um, really, really revealing stuff that go a lot further than what she said about Morton and a lot of stuff clearly about, um, yeah, the way she was basically led like a lamb to the slaughter by, by the very cynically, I think, by the royal family that, um, they didn't want things to change. Charles had to basically was under pressure to get married. And the feeling was that kind of she would do. I think looking at her life. The thing about her that's so unique is that even though she was in that royal family, and again, it's not like she came from a poor side of society before that people could really see themselves in her. Like she, you know, she was the one that would go hug the AIDS patient when that was something you just didn't do, you know? And yet she represented the royal family doing that. She was the one who cared about children. She was the one who saw her kids as something more than just a number in the line, you know? I think they, they saw as a real threat and you're absolutely right. You know, we now congratulate Catherine for kind of bringing up her children in a normal way, but actually Diana was doing that. She was taking off to fun parks and breaking away from this, you know, very stiff sort of way the royals were brought up, but you're absolutely right. She broke, you know, uh, and they still do it. The royals think they've done their bit by turning up somewhere, shaking hands and, and opening a, you know, pulling a string, uh, and she kind of got down and dirty with, with people and, and, and kind of pushed the, put the whole thing towards charity and a few key charities, which you can see William has kind of picked up on, but also you see, and this is one of the tragedies of Harry, you see the charisma that, that Harry had before he got involved with Meghan that, you know, he inherited from his mother in a way that William is much stiffer. I mean, clearly the older child has to be more careful, but yeah, she had this extraordinary, um, uh, quality, uh, and for a woman, you know, who was not very bright, not at all well-educated. It was still very young, you know, she, she did become an extraordinary figure and, um, yeah, I think they, they really were worried. I mean, Charles was always, of course, very jealous of her because of course of her attention and also the way she kind of flowered like a sort of butterfly, you know, that, you know, she was a pretty, I mean, a pretty girl, but I mean, by losing weight, she became this extraordinary sort of goddess like figure. Yes. And, and she, you know, she was like a fashion symbol around the world. Most, maybe the most. Mm-hmm. Most famous woman by math to ever live as far as like brand awareness around the world. So, you know, that, that's the other thing too. He, as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong here, that was an arranged marriage in the sense that that's not something he ever wanted. And I, if, if I am correct about that, I do empathize with that a little bit because it's like he's forced to marry someone that he doesn't want to spend his life with. And then what do you, what do you expect to happen? Yes. Well, I think, you know, the assumption was. That, that, that, you know, he had to get married. He couldn't get married to, to Camilla. She was, well, by that stage, she was already married herself, but, you know, they needed to find a young virginal bride and, and, and she would do, she comes from a good family and she's young and she won't, she'll be malleable. So I feel sorry. I mean, I feel sorry for him because he thought he had to go through this, but I think he always thought he was going to be, just be able to carry on as normal. Once she produced two children and she did produce a child very quickly. And I mean, there's a very interesting section of the book about how basically, you know, they would, you know, she was kind of kept at, at, at Balmoral as a sort of, you know, timings and, and things happened when, you know, she was at the right position, position in her period to produce a child. It was all done very scientifically, but, you know, sad for her because I think she did love him, feel that even if he didn't love her then, that he would grow to love her and didn't realize. I mean, it was plotted by the two grandparents, two grandmothers, Ruth, Lady Fermoy, and, and the Queen Mother. And that's the, the Queen and Prince Philip had an arranged marriage. I mean, Philip, you know, was basically penniless. He was seen as suitable. Again, the Queen was in love with him and she was very happy, but he kind of, he kind of felt, he was kind of pushed into it. And, and we know that from, from, from diary entries going back to the 1940s. You know, 41, 42, where Mountbatten and the King of Greece, for example, are talking about the marriage. And, you know, clearly some of those marriages, like, it worked for the King and, and, and, sorry, for, for the Queen and Prince Philip. And actually, if you go back, supposedly it was, the Queen Mother was in love with, with Edward VIII rather than with Bertie. And, and Bertie asked her several times and she turned Bertie down and eventually kind of, she kind of conceded. And I think that did become a happy marriage. So, you know, that's a long tradition, you know, have your heirs and, you can go off and do your own thing and the problem was in 1981 when they got married that you know you still had to have a virginal bride by the time 86 came along and Fergie was on the scene I mean okay it was only the second son that was less important a factor and I don't think it would be a factor now I mean everyone has assumed that Catherine had boyfriends before she married William right different time I guess do you think Diana ever loved Charles or she loved the idea of him no I think she did love Charles um you know I think um uh she she I think Fergie loved the idea of the monarchy I think this there's certain people who suspect that Catherine loved the idea of getting involved with with becoming queen uh and and Sophie Dr. Elizabeth was was was prepared to do that and I think in some ways you know that's not a bad thing I mean there are a lot of women who who just don't want that I mean a lot of girlfriends for Charles didn't want that and turned him down uh if you think of Cresta Bonas and Chelsea um uh was it Chelsea Davis um who was um the the girlfriend of Harry uh but they all didn't didn't want to I mean maybe they didn't want Harry but they didn't want to to to to go to go become members of the royal family um and I think both Catherine and Sophie were prepared to put up with that I mean I'm I'm sure there was they loved their husbands as well but you know they were prepared to buy into it um I think Diana no I think it was it was a genuine belief because in some ways you know she never exploited a royal position there are no stories of her monetizing a position even after she left um you know she she always I mean she she devoted time to charity but I've never come across any evidence of her being paid to do things like that so I think it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a thing um you know she wanted to get involved with rich men because she wanted the security that came from that and people being able to pay for security but um I never felt that she embarrassed the royal family in the way that Fergie and Meghan Markle have so I think she's you know a quite respectable figure in that respect and I think her reputation will grow as people look back definitely a legendary figure already was a legend the instant she died I mean like monumental event in world history it's kind of crazy to think about one of if not the most common dms I get on instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are well today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now also if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show you can do so via the discord link in my description below and finally you can join my patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the patreon link in my description below as always please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already I really appreciate that also the like buttons a big help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below but when when deep and I were were in Paris in December the last night there he was like yo we should go to this bar Hemingway which is a bar in the back of the Ritz Hotel in Paris which is really cool because Ernest Hemingway obviously a legend he used to be at the Ritz for months at a time and so they ended up opening an up this bar maybe in like the 1980s is that right def 1980s where it's a very small exclusive bar in the back of the Ritz where they have all of his pictures letters that he wrote from on the Ritz letterhead and everything it's just like brilliant if you're if you love Hemingway and yeah yeah go there yeah oh yeah you never been I know oh you got to go to this place so we're like all right let's go do it and I'm saying to myself I'm like thief they don't let people like us in a place like the Ritz I don't know if this is gonna work he's like all right we'll try it so we walk up to the front and we just acted like you know yeah we're going to bar Hemingway and you see a couple of the Ritz guards they're like I'm like yeah in the back and they're like yeah I go to the back so we're like oh shit we're in and you go through this place and it's like again you're seeing like sultans on the side in the opening bar right there then you go through all these like Gucci stores with the people with white gloves on and everything and it's it's really amazing but you get to the back where the bar is and you know the Ritz is basically like a whole city block so all the way in the back once you walk through those doors you wouldn't if you were on the other side looking in you wouldn't even know in my opinion this is the Ritz it's like kind of nondescript and bar Hemingway is through these little curtains on the side so deep and I get there we wait in the line there's only like how many seats are in there deep maybe like 25 2025 so it's like pretty exclusive but we were like number 12 in line so we got in and I'm sitting there and I'm looking at the curtains and then it just hit me I was like oh shit thief this is where Diana went out like she left through that they snuck her through the back door to rue cam bone right there and then two minutes later poof you know that unfortunately obviously had the crash and she was dead and I googled it really quick and I was like yeah that's right where it was and that was like kind of trippy to be there but you know her death now almost 30 years later I think we're at 29 almost exactly right now is we record this is still something that people are very very suspicious of because unlike other people in the car who were killed on impact she was actually killed by I think like a small vessel in her heart that they couldn't see exactly right the bleeding internal bleeding yeah and there was the whole thing where they took a long route to a different hospital from there and everything and again she had transcended the royal family at that point she was bigger this is the media era she was a brand problem in some ways for them you know have you ever looked at that one and said something's wrong there something else happened yes I have I mean I there are some books which I read and then watch TV programs and then you're absolutely right there are a lot of anomalies about what happened and the mysteries of and and you know the delay I mean she they stopped the ambulance literally the gates to the hospital and to further to do the work on her and and certainly the tradition normally in Britain is what they call scoop and run which is to bring people to hospital as soon as possible was there they seem to be treating her in the ambulance but you're absolutely right there are a lot of unexplained stories and funny enough I did talk to a man who was involved in some of the the pageant commission which was one of the investigations and he said that he was he was a an expert witness who was called because of his expertise and various things and in the end they didn't use his evidence and he kind of felt the whole thing was wrong. was a bit of a cover-up and I'm sure for the anniversary there will be a lot of books coming out I think the big problem with the story is who killed her and why did they kill her and no one's ever really been able to put forward a satisfactory explanation I mean to say that was fired that the Phillips behind it is ridiculous to say the British intelligence services were behind it doesn't really make sense but you know there are a lot of there are lots of you know things about blood samples from Henri Paul the driver that don't add up the problems with the car the fact that I mean some people say the seat her seatbelt wasn't working which is why she wasn't wearing it the stories about actually she and Dodi were taking cocaine which is why they weren't they weren't having wearing the seatbelts and that's what's been covered up some people saying it's to do with drug dealers out to get Dodi and she was just collateral damage but you know huge huge And of course when people die and suddenly and people find it very hard to believe that could have happened that then of course there will be speculation I think but one of the problems and one of my arguments for the importance of transparency is if you don't provide if you cover up things then you create this fact vacuum for speculation fantasy so my mind is kind of open but I'm certainly not dismissing something doesn't add up there and I'm sure we're this time next year we'll know a lot more than we do now. Well. Why do you think it wouldn't make sense for say like British intelligence to offer if she was such a potential threat to the future of the longest held establishment in the country well the the argument was that you know she was there was upset about her support for landmines that was very embarrassing is embarrassing well it was kind of because we'd signed up to certain things and we weren't doing it and she was highlighting that I don't think it's still a good enough reason to kill someone and I mean the from what I you know. What I know is intelligence so and what I know is intelligence services are tasked by by government departments they have they have a basically a department which which is giving you I don't know the foreign office will say we want to know about I don't know the president of Syria we want to to know what's going on about this guy Epstein who seems to be doing this and so they will go off and investigate that but they don't go and do their own thing and so someone must have given the orders from within government. To do to do that you wouldn't have a rogue operation I mean that's what the argument that there was some but there were a lot of my six people around there a lot of people are not telling the truth about why they were there so there certainly was a strong in my six element. And Assad people there too well and Mossad of course are always the one to do the dirty work for everyone I mean that's one of the arguments was a source for that just saying well exactly and I mean the but you know. And Richard Thompson of course has talked about it and the miss in the white fiat I mean though if you're going to kill someone there are easier ways to do it you fiddle with. the brakes you you um fiddle with a helicopter i mean there are a lot of things there you you can i mean the russians are experts at injections in the arm and stuff i was told by a russian spetsnaz guy that if they wanted to kill me they would they would induce a heart attack in the street by just injecting me with someone um so i mean there are other ways to do it um uh and there are too many variables that could go wrong i mean even if you directed because there was talk about a police motorbike at the top that was directing people down the tunnel um and you know how did the white fiat with the concrete in it how did it sort of get in the right lane at the right time there are just so many things that could go wrong um you know people say that henry paul was told to take a certain route um you know that that that it wasn't accidental that he he went that way so i mean there are lots and lots of things so i mean certainly if i had time i i would be interested in doing that but i don't know if i would be interested in doing that but i would be interested in looking at this and going right out to first principles with an open mind trying to i got your next book after philip after philip i mean yeah i mean a lot of books will come out for the anniversary but it doesn't mean the story will go away we're still looking at you know the death of of princess grace we're still looking at you know the death of john f kennedy so um you're absolutely right you know and um you know there's still clearly people around who who do know something uh one of the people who's who was involved in the case a diplomat i interviewed in fact for my andrew book um he didn't always tell me the full story on the andrew book so i suspect i'm not going to get the full story on the other book but there will be someone who will emerge and again a lot of people who died in strange circumstances you know people who who committed suicide and locked cars and um stuff with um a lot from the outside so um yeah yes well that it would be a great book and if no one does a good book um in a year's time then that might add that to the list have you ever uncovered any evidence or things that could point to the possible existence of evidence that princess diana in any way was aware of the existence of jeffrey epstein and perhaps his relationship with people in the royal family well i i haven't uh but i have come across uh the fact that prince edward was in touch with epstein in 1996 so before she died uh and edward yeah so um if if uh epstein had targeted uh edward i mean mighty have targeted um diana there's no reason for him to target diana you know he wanted the kudos of being involved with the royal family uh diana really wasn't very useful to him in that way well you know she didn't have the contacts that the others did she she didn't have okay i mean maybe what could you do for him and what could you do for her um i i i doesn't doesn't sort of i i can't see why there might be a connection there but you know who knows um you know i i think there are clearly stronger connections between members of the royal family and epstein and those hopefully will emerge and maybe she will come into the story i mean the other great mystery which i've got hints of and everyone's talked about megan the yacht girl and andrew but i had an interesting story from one of my thai sources who knew nothing about those rumors who has a story of a woman who's been in a relationship with a man who's been in a relationship with andrew and she's been in a relationship with andrew for a long time and andrew has a story of megan in thailand in 2012 megan markle megan markle and her buying um not paying for some um fabric that she wanted i think to to make some a shirt or something uh and if we can and if we can you know make that i mean you know of course you can go to thailand doesn't connect her with with andrew but it does if if we can connect the two of them in thailand at the same time then that begins to to to give some sort of substance to some of the rumors that have been circulating for years and what what are those rumors well the rumors are that that that andrew was involved with with megan markle and that's one of the great secrets and there's a guy called hg2 tutor who's done a podcast claiming to have an mi5 document proving this um but he hasn't shared that document uh he doesn't explain how he's got hold of it um but uh and and also it's not something mi5 would be investigating it's something mi6 would be investigating you do foreign if you just got recruited by mi6 so you can get on this when you get in there they've been they've been they've been on thieves linkedin right people from mi6 looking at right well yes gosh well yeah i'd love to stay in touch that's wild so they may have a document that connects so if that's true i mean if if you know that's that that is one of the interesting things that people are looking at the megan markle and andrew and they every so often you'll see things and they'll suggest that there's a picture on a megan and there's a picture of andrew at the same boat but it's always someone else i mean he certainly hung around in thailand quite a lot he used to stay at a man called johan elias's house um he had an affair in thailand with cornelia guest who's of course quite a well-known american figure what about the uh some other stuff in thailand uh well i mean you know the the story got picked up was about the 40 prostitutes in thailand yeah of of what technical gender well that was a really interesting thing that i dropped in uh this was from my thai source actually and my thai source is a member of the thai royal family and her driver was very friendly with andrew's driver and she the driver said that um he used to drive um basically kind of t-boys to to andrew's parties now that doesn't mean andrew got involved with them but it does seem kind of weird that's a little weird um uh but it does back up the stories i mean the cotton you know the numerous stories that are going on in thailand and andrew's family and andrew's family and andrew's stories of the bisexuality and bisexuality is you know something that is not you should we say unknown to members of the royal family god that's so strange that whole thing what a what a man you are going through some interesting there are a lot of little red herrings that one could explore and maybe as a result of this people come forward and they will have stories and that's always one of the wonderful things yeah they can give you their number like peggy siegel apparently you saw it there in her own hands but that's still wild i gotta ask you about that off camera some more but the other thing is we just did like a lot of work on the forensics and investigation with some experts around like the charlie kirk investigation in america which is certainly a mess and all that and one of the main focuses there is like the procedure of the autopsy and the timeline and everything i i think i've raised this point in a recent podcast and i've never really actually pulled on this thread enough and looked it up how much do we know about like the autopsy that was conducted on diana and when that was conducted well i think the interesting thing was the royal family stepped in very quickly to control it um i mean there was um uh she was embalmed very quickly uh which of course were destroyed in the evidence of of drugs and things so none of the proper um autopsies were done where was she embalmed in france still in paris very very quickly that night um so um none of the procedures were followed and that was of course was always the argument about epstein's death that again the proper procedures weren't followed and autopsy reports weren't weren't released and um uh you know it looked like the the death scene had kind of been mocked up so i mean of course big story you know big questions about epstein's death so yeah i mean i you know i i think i think the important thing is to be agnostic on these things i mean some people uh will will religiously say that's impossible it's just made up but they don't have any evidence that's made up that's right uh you know people more often you know of course you've got to make your case that it might have happened but you know and all these stories there are there are lots of unanswered questions and and the question what one has to do is try and answer them my friend joseph scott morgan who is the death investigator and forensics guy i've had in for years who was just in here putting on a master class about the charlie kirk thing one thing that he says very respectfully but deliberately to drive it home people as he says i i don't mean this in an inhumane way at all but the instant a homicide victim expires their body becomes the prime piece of evidence it is the it tells the most of the story that he needs to put together to determine what happened here and one of the things i couldn't get out of my head is forget the embalming that happened i guess that night while her body was still in the hospital but it's very famously understood that when diana died they just left her body in that hotel room and people were coming in and out people from her life throughout the day and like paying their respects by the body for hours so much so that they opened up the window right there to make sure that enough air could get in so you know oh in the hospital in the hospital yes yes and it's like you know most famous woman in the world was just killed under interesting circumstances imagine all it took is one little second if someone needs to go do something to that body or maneuver it in any type of way to hide what needs to be hidden that's wild to me well i think one of the suggestions was that she was killed in the ambulance at the door of the of the san peter hospital and it was it was mossad or whatever agents who were in in the ambulance who who administered the final dose or whatever it was that got her um that's certainly something i've read you ever read the book gideon spies well i used to represent uh gordon thomas uh that's a yes so So, yes, I knew Gordon Thomas. Did he die under unexpected circumstances? Well, he died much earlier than people expected. He had strong links. I wouldn't get too involved with MI6. He had very close links with Mossad. God damn it. But I went and stayed with him. He was always short of money. And he made a lot of money in his life from these books. And he was living as a tax exile in Ireland. And I went out to see him outside Dublin. And he'd just earned quite a lot of money. And he was pleading poverty. He said, I've only got this sack of rice to feed my family at the moment. And I said, well, what about the 50,000 you got the other day? He said, I bought a sports car with that. I will say this. That was a book that I had that when I was reading it for the first time and reading that first chapter, I had a verbal, like, alone by myself reaction of, like, dropping it. Like, what the fuck did I just read? Where he's telling this story. I've talked about this before. But he's talking about this Katja with Mossad, who I think he called Peter or something like that. And he's going through how, well, you know, all agencies, CIA, Mossad, MI6, they have safe houses throughout Europe. Paris is certainly a hotspot. So this case agent, Peter, is rolling in Paris. And his target is the Ritz Hotel because that's where a lot of Middle Eastern power money meets for oil deals and stuff like that. And the way Gordon explained it is he goes, to get a great source at a place like that, it's about splitting the difference. And by that, he meant you don't want a janitor because they're too low. They don't know enough that's going on. But you also don't want the manager of the whole hotel because he's too high and he's too present in front of these people and knows all the guests way too personally. You want someone in the middle who has access to them but can kind of blend in, which is why he was sitting here on this night with a guy named Henri Paul. And I don't know if you've heard of him. And I know he's writing about 1997 right now. And I'm just like, ooh. And then it describes that the guy was outside in the front like haggle of press that night at the Ritz where they snuck her out the back and then the rest is history. He was in that gaggle of press as well. And I'm just looking at this going, it doesn't mean anything because there were a lot of intelligence agencies there at the time to be clear. But you wonder because you're like, it's never just perfectly clean. There's always something that leaves the door open to like, something weird's going on here. And that book, like that went largely ignored to me as far as like I never knew that until I read it 20 some years after it came out. But that was an insane piece of reporting right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know we had very good sources in Mossad, yeah. But I mean, you know, it's very clear that anyone in Henri Paul's position, any security position in a hotel will be a source for intelligence agencies. And clearly there was a lot of money in Henri Paul's accounts that he couldn't accept. And clearly there was a lot of money in Henri Paul's accounts that he couldn't explain. Just in the way there was a lot of money in the guards at the Manhattan Correctional Center who found Epstein. That's right. Which, you know, they couldn't explain. That's right. So, and so it's always about following the money. That often gives you a pretty good sense. Did you ever have any contact with Elan Maxwell? No. I mean, I started this book in 2021. Okay. So, no. I only asked that because like you've been in London. For a long time and everything and been like a well-known journalist writing books. So, you know, there were a lot of people that just bumped into her. Yeah, I know a lot of people I know knew her. And in some ways, I mean, she was kind of part of my generation. She's a month younger than I am. And she was at Oxford at the same time I was at Cambridge. But I never came across her. I mean, she was a little bit too smart for me. I mean, a little bit too smart for you. Moving in, shall we say, smarter circles than I did. I'm not really sure what you mean by that. Well, more glittering. So, you know, she was a much more socialite than me. Got it. Yeah, I think we weren't we playing tapes of like them making fun of Diana or something. Am I remembering that correctly? Yeah, so she was like around the royal family years, even like before Epstein and stuff. And I think on these tapes, she was talking about how they used to like laugh and make fun of Diana behind her back because she was like the outsider or whatever. Yeah, she was very well connected. Absolutely. Yeah, that whole thing, that picture of like Epstein and Ghislaine. At the little hunting house on the royal estate. Yes, yes. Well, I mean, they I mean, there must be more pictures like that. I mean, you know, and that was that that was their sort of insurance policy showing that they were right within the inner circle of the royal family at these private places. Yeah, absolutely. And that was seen as the hat trick. If you if you could have pictures of yourself taken, you know, on the throne in Buckingham Palace, you know, at Balmoral, at the little cozy sort of hut. And then at Sandringham. So the hat trick. That was the hat trick to get them all there. And of course, Epstein was, you know, he's snapping all these pictures. They didn't realize this was all collecting information that could be used against them. Now, one thing I kind of put a pin in my head that you've referenced a couple of times today is this whole thing with with Prince Andrew, former Prince Andrew, as the trade envoy. So I want to make sure I understand this because he was trade envoy in the 2000s. But he was involved somehow. In the Al Yamama deal as well. Can you just explain his whole like role in anything related to arms deals and trade with with the British government? Yeah, well, he was the trade envoy in 2001 and 2011. So, I mean, this was after the deal, but he's got clearly things were going on. I mean, interestingly enough, he was involved with Mark Thatcher in Kazakhstan, the 1990s. And I've put in FOI requests about. A lot of the about the Al Yamama deal. And they've taken a year and a half to even respond to it. And they've just kind of kicked it into the long grass. Normally, they have to respond within a month. And what was the out for people out there? What was the Al Yamama deal? Well, basically, this was about greasing the palm of by British BBA, basically, to get deals for British industry in the Middle East arms deals, they were greasing people's palms and paying commission. And that was the way the business. Was done there. And then, of course, there was investigation by the serious fraud office about that. This was corruption. Now, where Andrew comes into the story is he did go to the serious fraud office and he was having a visit there and he berated them for for doing this, doing their job, basically, and said, this is, you know, you're affecting trade by by by putting kind of ethics ahead of business. But, you know, to be fair, Tony Blair. Basically said, look, we will. We will. I mean, the problem was, I know this from a friend of mine who worked in intelligence, the Saudis were not going to cooperate with the British in intelligence sharing about terrorism if they they didn't allow this to go through. And so the whole investigation was shut down. So lots of people trying to shut it down. But Andrew was certainly one of them. And time and time again, the stories of him basically trying to interfere with institutions he shouldn't like the serious fraud office. He was involved. Also, with the National Crime Agency, he was actually picking up information about money laundering. And we now know that he was heavily involved in money laundering. I mean, that was what happened with the sale of his house at Sunning Hill. There was a lot of the ways that the Yorks were paid was through the use of art, for example, and old jewelry. Jewelry was was melted. It was given to his gifts and melted down or passed on when they would launder money through that. So. That was. Yeah. And in the way that, you know, Epstein was laundering money for the Russians and and and and Trump. I mean, Trump's Trump was laundering money for the Russians with his casinos, for example. I mean, that's that's pretty well described by Craig under Unger and others. So, I mean, the money. I think this is what's so shocking that any of us involved in transactions would have would have to explain my payments. But the sale of Sunning Hill was done. Through secretive trusts by the by by royal advisers and Coots Bank and far of the Queen's lawyers. And they did none of the money checks, none of the laundering checks they should have done. They turned a blind eye to all this. So it's a good case of one law for for them and one law for everyone else. Now, when Andrew was arrested and I had you pull this up earlier, but we didn't get to it. So we'll bring it back. But the picture you referenced of him after he was released, I guess, on Baylor. You say it from the arrest where he actually looked really scared and he's currently under investigation for his time as trade envoy. My understanding is that this is related to him having improper relationships with with Jeffrey Epstein while he was in that role. And that's what they're specifically investigating him on. Or am I misremembering that? Well, there are about eight police forces are investigating him and they're investigating him for a variety of of of charges. Some are looking. They're looking at sex trafficking. We know that 60 women were trafficked. And this is why it's ridiculous for the Met and others to say that none of these things happened in Britain. We know that Epstein was putting up girls in flats in Kensington. We know that Andrew, for example, was paying for a mistress in Mayfair. So so there was sex trafficking going on. We know that Gordon Brown has talked about flights coming into airports all over Britain, Essex, Norfolk, Wiltshire. and elsewhere. So I think there are eight or nine police forces that are looking at sex trafficking allegations. We also have Thames Valley Police, which is the local police to where he was living, Royal Lodge, who are looking at that and also what we call misconduct in public office, which is basically abusing a position in a public office. Now, I'm very cynical about that because there's some debate about how easy it is to get a conviction on that. Some say it's difficult. Some say it's easy. They're using the excuse that he wasn't a paid official and therefore it doesn't apply to him. But the very clear evidence from the Epstein revelations of basically sharing confidential information, both commercial information, diplomatic secrets, military secrets. We know that he shared information about the sale of the Royal Bank of Scotland when it was being broken off to people who were interested in buying. We know that he shared information about during the Atlantic banking crisis to David Rowlands, who was actually buying one of the banks, which became the bank Haviland. So this is very clear, breaking official secrets at and all sorts of things. There are things under the Companies Act, under fraud, fraud out that you could come after him for. So in some ways, it's the police kind of going off on a tangent saying, oh, we're doing something. Sadly, we can't we can't see it to fruition because we can't. There are also one of the problems with the sex trafficking is a lot of the women aren't prepared to come forward because they don't want all the hassle. So there's a woman in 2010 who was trafficked to Andrew, given the tour of Royal Lodge, stayed at what went to Buckingham Palace, who's represented by Brad Edwards, who you've been talking about. And she, first of all, threatened a civil action against him, which seems to have gone nowhere, sadly. And now she seems to be backing off her case. A lot of these women. Feel intimidated, a lot of them signed NDAs, a lot of them have been paid off. So there is a real danger that, you know, we will not get the evidence on the sex trafficking. I mean, we're very fortunate that Virginia Jeffrey was prepared to go through all the opprobrium that she had in order to to to go on the record. But I think there's plenty of evidence to charge Andrew. Also, what they could do, what I think would be a very interesting error when they arrest, they arrested him and question him for. I. Think about seven or eight hours. Did he have a lawyer with him? Yes, he would have had a lawyer with him. And of course, he was tipped off. He was ready for them when they came from that day. And it wasn't it wasn't a dawn raid, but there was a worry that he might be a flight risk in the way that Mandelson was a flight risk. And he that's why he was arrested. But they only arrested him so that they could get search warrants. And they've used the search warrants to look at papers and computers and stuff. I think they even went and looked at. Maybe dug up bits of Royal Lodge. But the fact is, Andrew knew he was going to be arrested for months. I mean, he was burning papers. He was destroying hard drives. He was throwing up mobile phones into the river. He's destroying hard drives and throwing phones in the river. So he's been perverting the course of justice. He knew they were coming. So I don't think they're going to find too much anyway. And that's but what they could be doing is they should be bringing in his associates, what they could do is to arrest people like a man. And to stir in his private band of thirst, his private secretary, David Stern, who was one of his business officials, frankly, even Sarah Ferguson, and basically use them as leverage to give evidence against him in order to get their conviction to to to promise them a lower sentence for basically doing a plea bargain. And that they don't seem to be doing. I mean, we've got no evidence that anyone else has been questioned. So this all seems to me completely performative. Right. You know, look at us. Look at what we're doing. I mean, we had a ridiculous thing where they went to America to talk to Virginia Jeffrey's brother. Now, Virginia, Virginia's brother, frankly, has only come on the scene in the last few months. He wasn't there for Virginia Jeffrey when she was alive. The police were not there for Virginia Jeffrey when she put up all her allegations. They ignored them. And we have to remember, this is not just a story about Virginia Jeffrey. There are probably 60 or 70 victims. Many are just around Andrew, possibly, but I mean, certainly connected with Epstein. And it's not just a story about sex trafficking. It's a story about, as I say, abuse of public office. And if you and I had shared confidential information, for example, development opportunities in Helmand Province during the war in Afghanistan, we would be in big trouble. And the really interesting question is, if they're going to bring children to school, are they going to bring children to school? Why don't they bring charges against Peter Mandelson, who was doing exactly the same as Andrew? Why don't they bring charges against Andrew? What is the distinction between the two of them? And are they going to use that distinction of one was a paid official and one wasn't as a way of getting Andrew off the hook? But I'll bet my bottom dollar that Andrew will not be charged because the last thing the royal family want is their secrets aired in public. Yeah, you kind of answered a question I was going to ask for me, which is you said it's performative in your opinion. And when I look at this and. I just stack up the fact that women have already been blackmailed or paid off. He was tipped off about the raid happening. He was openly, obviously, to someone's knowledge, throwing phones and clearing hard drives for months ahead of time. Like, and then he gets arrested. It's like, here's your bread and circus, people. Look, look, you got an embarrassing picture. There you go. Exactly. No, the passport hasn't been confiscated. He's been able to travel. He's certainly the mail Sunday reported. A visit to a stud farm in France. But my understanding is he's been going to Middle East. He's been going to Switzerland. He's traveling. I mean, nothing has changed. And actually, what's clever is the king has got him on a private estate. No one can actually knows what he's doing. We all assume he's in Sandringham looking at videos, but he could be, you know, looking at video. Well, that's how he spends his time watching videos and playing video games and stuff like that. But actually, he may be. I mean, who knows? Oh, that's nice. You know, we may see him in the streets. Stop through. You're welcome. You can let the side down in here. Yeah, we'll pop in. I'd like to chat to you. Yeah, I'll cook him like a fucking Thanksgiving dinner. Pause. But yeah, it's just the double standard is what's really sickening. And obviously, we have no leg to stand on here in America. We've seen it. We haven't even gotten a symbolic arrest here. You know what I mean? Like, at least you guys got that low bar. But it's just, you know. I try to go to 30,000 feet in the air and look at things how they are and look at ways we can fix stuff. I'm an optimist. I, you know, I love living in this country. I think we got a lot of great stuff here. I think looking at it from the American perspective, like we have some rot in certain areas and some things that maybe we're now discovering about the true, I guess, like grips of power that exists not just here but around the world. And I'd like to see some generational change happen. And, you know, maybe we can. But when you look at all this and you look at a story like Epstein and all the people he was tied to and the lengths it went. I mean, as sick and widespread as it was, sex trafficking was just one of the things he did. We're talking about a guy that was involved in arms deals, espionage, diplomatic whatever, you know, around the world, was just connected in all these different places. Do you ever wonder about, you know, the world being run? By a different group of people than we even know exists, if you understand what I'm asking there? Well, I mean, I think most people don't believe in conspiracy theories, but then you get the Epstein story and you do believe that there is a super elite who are operating in their own interests across nations, working with intelligence agencies. I mean, I think one of the interesting things about the stories is seen, first of all, as a sex story, then as a financial scandal. And actually, it's an espionage scandal. I mean, the fact is, you know, he had close links with Mossad. I mean, this is. Certain stuff has come out now about him being a Russian asset. I've certainly talked about an FBI document I was given showing that Andrew was involved with Russian criminal gangs linked to Russian intelligence services. But this is before we even get to the Zorro Ranch and the woman who found themselves having been operated on to harvest their eggs. All the huge. I mean, we now know from the plans of Zorro Ranch that the huge, not just medical facilities, but all sorts of things that were built underneath. The Zorro Ranch. Other things built beneath it? Well, I mean, one of the interesting things about Zorro, I mean, we're talking about UFOs. It's kind of equidistance between Area 51 and various other things. I mean, there are all sorts of other sort of stories going on here. And one of the interesting things is Zorro Ranch is the one area that wasn't investigated, wasn't raided by the FBI. But the FBI picked up a lot of stuff in both Palm Beach and Manhattan, for example, pictures and stuff. And we'd never heard about that. You know, but you're right. It was all about collecting compromat. So the sex was really just a way into compromising people. And I mean, he was not just inflating the British royal family, but the Norwegians and others. I mean, he had links to Israel, to China and to Russia. So this is a huge story. And in some ways, I mean, Epstein may only be a bit player in a bigger story because Epstein's no longer here. And yet we kind of of feel the whole thing is still going on. I mean if there is a kill list, there's clearly someone else who's organising that kill list. I mean Epstein's not doing it from beyond the grave. And the sort of waves of it seem to move out further and further, the story gets bigger and bigger, more and more people seem to have been drawn in. And it brings me back actually to my first biography. John Buchan was a thriller writer, born in 1875, died in 1940. But his great thing is that the veneer of civilisation is very thin and actually there are all these people walking around who we feel are respectable people who are actually out to subvert civilisation. Subvert civilisation. And this is sort of what we're seeing. We're now seeing people that we thought we could trust turning out to actually be working against, or in the narrow self-interest of these elites, but against the elite. And so he was actually quite far-seeing in seeing what was going on. But I think, I hope more stuff will release. The Epstein story gets bigger and bigger I think. And I've always been aware that I've only touched the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, I think of Epstein sometimes like, if you've ever seen those videos, those nature videos on social media where someone's like pulling on a weed, and they're pulling on this weed in the side of like a, you know, a, you know, a tree. And they're pulling it out of the side of like a embankment and they're going back and forth like this. It's one of those like satisfying videos that you watch and you see a trickle of water coming out the more they pull. And then it's a bigger trickle and a bigger trickle. And then suddenly they get the whole weed out and you see like, and all the water comes out. And that's, I really think Epstein is like that weed. Like he's the figurehead and we see him because we've had access to see what an evil man like this was and that he existed. But he's just like the surface level of some stuff that's below that. Absolutely. And it shows you how easily people can subvert other people. I mean, how cheaply they can be bought. But I think the other thing is if Virginia Jiffray hadn't, uh, persevered with her case and she would only have persevered with the civil, only persevered with the civil case after she saw Andrew on Newsnight. So if Andrew, this is back to the point I made about individuals changing history. If Andrew had decided not to do the Newsnight interview, Virginia Jiffray wouldn't have been so emboldened and outraged that she brought a civil case. The story, you know, it was dead. Uh, it had been, you know, depositions have been closed. Everyone had forgotten about it. She'd been dismissed. Um, none of this stuff would have come, but I mean, in terms of your unraveling, it's exactly the same with the Royal family. And this is what they're nervous about. You start picking it, you know, the loose thread of the bit of clothing and start pulling, pulling it. Uh, and actually you then find the garment begins to disintegrate, you know? Um, and that's what they're worried about once. And this is why, of course, they never want to let light into the, into the institution, because once you have the light and the transparency, suddenly people think, what are we doing here? What are we paying? Why are we paying these people? What do they actually do? Um, and it's, uh, you know, then wider questions. And this is what Andrew of course has done. He's, he's allowed people to begin to ask questions and shine some light. Not enough, but, um, you know, they must curse him because in some ways it was all going very smoothly. They were able to keep the whole show in the road, uh, with this formative, uh, smoke and mirrors operation. Uh, and now the whole thing is disintegrating. So everything's disintegrating. And I, I share your optimism that eventually, you know, good will, will, will, will come through this. People, enough people will feel emboldened to speak. There will be pressure. There will be, you know, we, we've, we've eventually had Andrew lose his position. Um, and I think eventually there will be people, I mean, there may be low hanging fruit in the States, but eventually some people I think will be brought to justice. I hope you're right about that. I, I, I don't know at this point if that's the case. It seems like they'll just distract from everything, but I, I hope you're right about that. And you know, I got my little corner of the internet and I'll do whatever I can to shine a light on that stuff. Just like you're shining a light on it with your books. And I think there's enough people who are at least awake to that, to try to make a point of this and improve it for them. The next generations. But it just, you know, sometimes it is hard not to be a little bit cynical when you see the worst crimes going unanswered for, you know? Yes. And people, you know, behaving badly, very openly and, and, and almost provocatively. I mean, like Trump, uh, and just giving two fingers. And I mean, that was what I think one of the frustrations with Andrew, people knew about Andrew's bad behavior and that's why I think why they've come forward now. Um, but they could do nothing about it. They would be penalized if they said anything. Uh, and the fact that they would go to, to the queen or the queen's private secretary and be sent away with a flea in the ear, you know, and that's, well, it's a British term, but basically, but basically a way we, as we, as we, uh, the matron at my school would say away with your capers. Um, so they, um, you know, and that's very frustrating to feel the whole system, the whole international rights, uh, you know, legal system, international relations, all these things are crumbling, all the structure is going, uh, and who do you believe it's a, it's a free for all, uh, of, of the rich and powerful. Uh, and that's, and if one can kind of stop that, that there is a rules-based system and we can get back to an ordered society in which we have a responsibility to the wider community, then that will be a good thing. Why, why do you think Andrew did do that interview in 2019? Because he thought he, he, he could get the better of, of a skilled journalist. Um, because he thought he, he, he could set the record straight and he could tell us lies and no one would challenge them because he's so stupid that he didn't prepare for it. Uh, his advisors were so stupid, they didn't prescribe the terms and the control, which of course even a B-list celebrity would have done. So it's a back to this hubris. It's a back to this arrogance and, and this sense of invincibility, um, uh, which he'd always had. And he just thought it would be a good thing. And he thought it would continue. Um, but you know, I think maybe in the hands of a less skilled interviewer, I mean, he might've got away with it, uh, in a less deferential press. Um, he might've got away with it. What's that lady's name again? Emily Maitlis. Yeah. Emily Maitlis. Fucking, she killed him. She, that was, she was good. Yeah, no, no. She, she's, I mean, she kind of led him into the trap, uh, and he walked into it. Um, uh, and I think, you know, clever, you know, clever by heavyweight. I think a pretty female person, he thought he got a kind of charmer, uh, and it'd be fine. And, um, you know, well, the rest is history. The rest is history. It's interesting though, cause I asked you towards the beginning of this conversation, like what you think. And, and you're like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you were, you were saying like, yeah, I am someone who supports the idea of the Royal family existing and the tradition of all that. What's interesting to me about that though, is, is you've reported on so much of the, the underbelly of it and this whole conversation, like you're running through all the crazy shit and the bad stuff that, that they do. And in a lot of ways you're a guy and I'm, I'm not faulting you at all. I think it's great reporting you do, but like, you're a guy that's like almost reporting on the things that would take it down. So how do you rectify those two? It's a very fair accusation. Um, you know, and if you write about rogue roles, then clearly you're going to, uh, you know, it, it is there, you know, it is going to be negative. Um, you know, I see it as a corrective and it may be that the Prince Philip book, you know, actually is a very positive book about, about a member of the Royal family. I mean, I think I've said some pretty, pretty positive things about him. Uh, and I, as I say, I go with an open mind and, and there will be things there that's critical, but I think largely it will be pretty positive. Um, and yeah, I mean one of the accusations is be careful what you wish for, you know, but it doesn't mean that you, you shouldn't be raising these things. The message is I I'm in favor of monarchy, uh, but not a corrupt monarchy. And it's not my job as the messenger not to report things. It's their job to correct things. I mean, I'm not making this up. This is their behavior and they need to correct it. You know, do I turn a blind eye to bad behavior because I just worried about the consequences or do I kind of report as fairly and honestly as I can about what I've found and leave them hopefully. And this is why I keep saying, you know, reform modernize, it can be corrected. You can get wind back, uh, you know, the support of the public and respect. Um, but let's not, I don't think there's a justification for turning a blind eye because you're worried about the consequences. Um, you know, there are a lot of people who will, who do take that position that basically the Royals are above the law, that they can do what they want because we want to protect the institution. But again, you know, you can be, you can believe in parliamentary democracy, but not necessarily support some of the prime ministers, for example, as part of it. You know, um, the system, it's not the system. Well, but I tell you where there is a problem if you are, if it was just about two bad apples about Andrew and Fergie, then that'd be one thing. But I think the worrying thing I discovered was it was about systematic and endemic corruption within the institution and others. Um, but again, clean up the act for everyone. Uh, there are plenty of people who are perfectly, um, uh, above board in the way they operate. I mean, I don't think Prince Edward's getting up to, to staff. I mean, um, or Princess Anne or any of these other people, and they must feel that they're all their good works being undermined. by all these people who are playing the system um clean clean up the bad behavior uh doesn't mean that the institution itself is intrinsically bad and that's the distinction that constantly needs to be made but of course if you're concentrating on the negative but again you know people said my book on mountbatten was negative was was critical uh actually if you read it and most people who make the criticisms haven't bothered to read the books you'll find that actually it's much more pro and generous towards mountbatten particularly on issues like indian independence and diep than most of the writers so i think i until that last chapter until that last chapter thank you guys for checking out this clip if you haven't already subscribed please subscribe and hit the like button on this video it is a huge huge help and if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode that link is in the description below or right here and finally you can follow me on instagram and x by using the links in my description below