Andrew Lownie Just Changed His Entire Perspective On Princess Diana

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. We're back. So actually the very first thing that I can remember in my life, like when you go back and you can't really remember when you're like two years old or one years old or anything like that. But the first thing I ever remember was across from my bedroom, my childhood bedroom was like a smaller room. It was like kind of like a half bedroom. So my dad would use it early in the morning to like get ready in there and go to work and not wake up my mom. And I remember waking up and walking in the room and he was sitting down in front of the TV and the TV was playing Diana's funeral. And you saw it was the part where they were driving the the the horse up the highway with the flowers and they had to stop and pull all the flowers off the windshield. And I walked in and he didn't realize I walked in and I said something to him like, what's this dad? And he panicked because he realized, oh shit, I have to explain death to my son now. I've been caught walking watching a program about the royals. What's my son going to think of me? I'm a closet royalist. He's like, does this make me gay? No, but he so he was like explain. He was like, they're driving the princess to heaven or something like exactly like pretty good thinking on his feet to do. I was like, okay, that makes sense. But it because it was my first memory, it was something that like later in my life, I started to get really interested in her life and what she had done. And she was again, like everyone, a flawed individual, but a really fascinating character, someone who was from the inside of society, but outside the royal family knew the world a little bit outside the royal family, but had to come in really young. And then even like had her own voice and they didn't like that. Well, that's really interesting what you say because I mean, I think of almost the royal family. She's the most interesting and that's a really good example about how a narrative was created. I mean, and people clearly have very strong views either way about it and more so even than Meghan Markle. But you know, when she died, I kind of had bought into the narrative, which was presented very much by Charles's side. And we, this is now all come out that she was, you know, she was very disaffected and a bit nuts. And now increasingly, I'm the more and more I read about her. I think she was wronged. I mean, you know, Charles was having this affair with Camilla all the way through. Right. I mean, he never written. She was kind of just a rude mayor. I mean, for breeding purposes. And she was a sort of lamb to slaughter as a young girl. And though sometimes she ever reacted was a bit emotional. My sympathies are much more now with Diana than they are with Charles. And that was, you know, that was very much a campaign. I mean, he paid, he supported, for example, by Penny Junior, a British writer to basically discredit her to say she had psychiatric problems. And, you know, she was trying to do her defense by doing her her interview on panorama and stuff. But my views are very much changed and fun enough yesterday. I was reading a book that I've been sent where my agents had about Diana. Which book? Well, it's not being published yet, but it's a series of tapes that she did with people before she died in preparation for a book with Morton. No, no, but with someone else. But a bit like the Morton, but actually going much further than the Morton in terms of some of the things that she was talking about. And in fact, some of the stuff was so sensational that no publisher would touch it and no agent would touch it. And so they kind of come to me as one of the few people who was mad enough to perhaps do this sort of book. So, and I think clearly the timing for that is the 30th anniversary heard, which is next August. Did you just read it or have you heard the tapes too? Well, I've halfway through the book and I haven't I've asked to see the, I've seen transcripts, but I haven't heard the tapes. I've asked to see the tapes. And you say, because she famously obviously passed tapes through an intermediary to Andrew Morton that later came out and was the genesis of the biography he wrote. But you say that the claims and this and I won't make you go on the record with stuff that's off record, but you say the claims and this are way more salacious than things we've heard in the past. Yes, really shocking things. And I mean, again, you know, I've got to be careful about rotation. So you've got to I've got to check up where I can verify the information to some things that said, but it kind of rings true. I mean, she talks about her childhood, being sexually abused as a child, for example. And really, really revealing stuff that go a lot further than what she said about Morton and a lot of stuff, clearly about, yeah, the way she was basically led like a lamb to the slaughter by very cynically, I think by the raw family that they didn't want things to change. Charles had to basically was under pressure to get married and the feeling was that kind of she would do. I think looking at her life, the thing about her that's so unique is that even though she was in that royal family, and again, it's not like she came from a poor side of society before that people could really see themselves in her. Like she, you know, she was the one that would go hug the AIDS patient when that was something you just didn't do, you know, and yet she represented the royal family doing that she was the one who cared about children. She was the one who saw her kids as something more than just a number in the line, you know, I think they saw her as a real threat. And you're absolutely right, you know, we now congratulate Catherine first kind of bringing up her children in a normal way, but actually Diana did it was doing that. She was taking off to fun parks and breaking away from this, you know, very stiff sort of way the royals were brought up, but you're absolutely right. She broke, you know, and they still do it. The royals think they've done their bit by turning up some reshaking hands and opening up, you know, pulling a string. And she kind of got down and dirty with people and kind of pushed the whole thing towards charity and a few key charities, which you can see William has kind of picked up on. But also you see, and this is one of the tragedies of Harry, you see that charisma that Harry had before he got involved with Megan that, you know, he inherited from his mother in a way that William is much stiffer. I mean, clearly the older child could speak more careful, but yeah, she had this extraordinary quality. And for a woman, you know, who was not very bright, not at all well educated was still very young, you know, she she did become an extraordinary figure. Yeah, I think they really were worried. I mean, Charles was always of course very jealous of her because of course her attention. And also the way she kind of flowered like a sort of butterfly, you know, that, you know, she was a pretty girl, but I mean by losing weight, she became this extraordinary sort of goddess like figure. Yes, and she, you know, she was like a fashion symbol around the world most, maybe the most famous woman by math to ever live as far as like brand awareness around the world. So, you know, that's the other thing too. As far as I know, correct me from wrong here, that was in a ranged marriage in the sense that that's not something he ever wanted. If I am correct about that, I do empathize with that a little bit because it's like he's forced to marry someone that he doesn't want to spend his life with and then what do you expect to happen? Yes. Well, I think, you know, the assumption was that, you know, he had to get married. He couldn't get married to Camilla. She was, well, by that state, she was already married herself. But, you know, they needed to find a young virginal bride and she would do, she comes from a good family and she's young and she won't, she'll be malleable. So, I feel sorry, I mean, I feel sorry for him because he thought he had to go through this, but I think he always thought he was going to be just able to carry on as normal. Once she produced two children and she did produce a child very quickly, and I mean, there's a very interesting section in the book about how basically, you know, they would, you know, she was kind of kept at Bell Moral as a sort of, you know, timings and things happened when, you know, she was at the right position, the position in her period to produce a child. She was all done very scientifically, but, you know, sad for her because I think she did love him, feel that even if he didn't love her then that he would grow to love her and didn't realize, I mean, it was plotted by the two grandparents, two grandmothers, Ruth Lady for Moe and the Queen Mother, and that's the Queen and Prince Philip had an arranged marriage, I mean, Philip, you know, was basically penniless, he was seen as suitable again, the Queen was in love with him and she was very happy, but he kind of, he kind of thought he was kind of pushed into it. And we know that from Darius entries going back to the 1941, '42, where Matt Baton and the King of Greece, for example, are talking about the marriage. And, you know, clearly some of these marriages, like it worked for the King and sorry, for the Queen and Prince Philip. Actually, if you go back, supposedly, the Queen Mother was in love with Edward VIII rather than with Bertie, and Bertie asked her several times and she turned Bertie down and eventually, kind of, she kind of conceded. And I think that did become a happy marriage, so, you know, that's a long tradition, you know, have your ears and then. you can go off and do your own thing. And the problem was in 1981 when they got married that, you know, you still had to have a virginal bride. By the time 86 came along and Fergie was on the scene, I mean, okay, it was only the second son. That was less important to factor. And I don't think it would be a factor now. I mean, everyone has assumed that Catherine had boyfriends before she married William. Right. Different time, I guess. Do you think Diana ever loved Charles or she loved the idea of him? No, I think she did love Charles. I think I think Fergie loved the idea of the monarchy. I think there's certain people who suspect that Catherine loved the idea of getting involved with becoming queen. And Sophie Duchess of Edinburgh was prepared to do that. And I think in some ways, you know, that's not a bad thing. I mean, there are a lot of women who just don't want that. I mean, a lot of girlfriends for Charles didn't want that and turned them down. You can go crest of bonus and Chelsea, was it Charles Joseph Davis, who was the girlfriend of Harry. But they all didn't want to, I mean, maybe they didn't want Harry, but they didn't want to go to become a member of the royal family. And I think both Catherine and Sophie were prepared to put up with that. I mean, I'm sure they loved their husbands as well, but they were prepared to buy into it. I think Diana, no, I think it was a genuine belief, because in some ways, you know, she never exploited a royal position. There are no stories of her monetising a position even after she left. You know, she always, I mean, she devoted time to charity, but I've never come across any evidence of her being paid to do things. You know, she wanted to get involved with rich men because she wanted the security that came from that and people being able to pay for security. But I never felt that she embarrassed the royal family in the way that Fergie and Meghan Markle have. So I think she's, you know, a quite respectable figure in that respect. And I think a reputation will grow as people look back. Definitely a legendary figure already was a legend, the instant she died. I mean, it's like monumental event in world history. It's kind of crazy to think about. 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But when, when, when Dief and I were, we're in Paris in December, the last night there, he was like, yo, we should go to this bar Hemingway, which is a bar in the back of the Ritz hotel in Paris, which is really cool because Ernst Hemingway, obviously a legend, he used to be at the Ritz for months at a time. And so they ended up opening up this bar maybe in like the 1980s, is that right, Dief? 1980s, where it's a very small exclusive bar in the back of the Ritz where they have all of his pictures, letters that he wrote from on the Ritz letterhead and everything. It's just like, if you're, if you love Hemingway and, yeah, history, go go that, yeah. Oh, yeah, you've never been, I know. Oh, you got to go this place. So we're like, all right, let's go do it. And I'm saying to myself, I'm like, Dief, they don't let people like us in a place like the Ritz. I don't know if this is going to work. He's like, all right, we'll try it. So we walk up to the front and we just acted like, you know, yeah, we're going to bar Hemingway and you see a couple of the Ritz guards. They're like, I'm like, yeah, in the back and they're like, yeah, I go the back. So we're like, oh, shit, we're in. And he goes through this place. And it's like, again, you're seeing like sultans on the side and the opening bar right there. Then you go through all these like Gucci stores with the people with white gloves on and everything. And it's, it's really amazing. But you get to the back where the bar is. And, you know, the Ritz is basically like a whole city block. So all the way in the back, once you walk through those doors, you would, if you were on the other side looking in, you wouldn't even know, in my opinion, this is the Ritz. It's like kind of nondescript. And bar Hemingway is through these little curtains on the side. So deep and I get there, we wait in the line. There's only like, how many seats are in there? Deaf, maybe like 25, 20, 25. So it's like pretty exclusive. But we were like number 12 in line. So we got in. And I'm sitting there and I'm looking at the curtains. And then it just hit me. I was like, Oh, shit, Deaf. This is where Diana went out. Like she left through that they snuck her through the back door to rue Canbone right there. And then two minutes later, poof, you know, that unfortunately, obviously had the crash and she was dead. And I googled it really quick. And I was like, yeah, that's right where it was. And that was like kind of trippy to be there. But, you know, her death now almost 30 years later, I think we're at 29 almost exactly right now as we record this is still something that people are very, very suspicious of because unlike other people in the car who were killed on impact, she was actually killed by I think like a small vessel in her heart that they couldn't see. Exactly. It was probably the internal bleeding. Yeah. And there was the whole thing where they took a long route to a different hospital from there and everything. And again, she had transcended the royal family at that point. She was bigger. This is the mass media era. She was a brand problem in some ways for them. You know, have you ever looked at that one and said, something's wrong there, something else happened? Yes, I have. I mean, I, you know, there are some books which I read and that watch TV programs. And then you absolutely right, there are a lot of anomalies about what happened and the mysteries of, and, and, you know, the delay, I mean, they stopped the ambulance literally at the gates to the hospital and to further, to do the work on, and on her. And, and certainly the tradition normally in Britain is what they call scoop and run, which is to bring people to hospital as soon as possible, was there they seem to be treating her in the ambulance. But you're absolutely right. There are a lot of unexplained stories. And, in front of it, I did talk to a man who was involved in some of the, the Paget Commission, which was one of the investigations. And he said that he was a, an expert witness who was called because of his expertise in verse things. And in the end, they didn't use his evidence. And he kind of felt the whole thing was a bit of a cover-up. And I'm sure for the anniversary, there will be a lot of books coming out. I think the, the big problem with the story is who killed her and why did they kill her? And no one's ever really been able to put forward a satisfaction explanation. I mean, to say that, it was fired that the Phillips behind it is ridiculous to say that British intelligence services were behind it doesn't really make sense. But, you know, there are a lot of, there are lots of, you know, things about blood samples from Henri Paul, the driver that don't add up, the problems with the car, the fact that, I mean, some people say the seat, her seat belt wasn't working, which is why she wasn't wearing it. The story is about actually she and Dirty were taking cocaine, which is why they weren't, they weren't having wearing the seat belts. And that's what's being covered up. Some people say it's due with drug dealers out to get dodie and she was just collateral damage. But, you know, huge, huge mysteries. And of course, when people die suddenly and people find it very hard to believe that could have happened, that that, then of course, there will be speculation. And I think one of the problems, and one of my arguments from the importance of transparency is if you don't provide, if you cover up things, then you create this vacuum for speculation and fantasy. So my mind is kind of open, but I'm certainly not dismissing that something doesn't add up there. And I'm sure at this time next year we'll know a lot more than we do now. Why do you think it wouldn't make sense for say like British intelligence to offer if she was such a potential threat to the future of the longest-held establishment in the country? Well, the, the argument was that, you know, she was, that there was upset about her support for landmines. That was very embarrassing and embarrassing. Well, it was kind of because we'd signed up to certain things and we weren't doing it and she was highlighting that. I don't think it's still a good enough reason to kill someone. And I mean, the, from what I, you know, as intelligence historian, what I know is the intelligence services are tasked by, by government departments. They have a, they have a, basically a department which, which is giving, you know, I don't know, the foreign office will say we want to know about, I don't know, the president of Syria. We want to know what's going on about this guy Epstein who seems to be doing this. And so they will go off and investigate that, but they don't go and do their own thing. And so someone must have given the orders from within government to do, to do that. You wouldn't have a rogue operation. I mean, that's the argument that there were some, but there were a lot of MI6 people around there. A lot of people are not telling the truth about why they were there. So there certainly was a strong MI6 element. There was some Assad people there too. Well, and Mossad, of course, there was always the one to do the dirty work for everyone. I mean, that's one of the arguments with that statement. Just saying that was a source for them. Just saying. Well, exactly. And I mean, the, the, the, but you know, and Richard Thompson, of course, has talked about it and the missing the white fiat. I mean, if you're going to kill someone, And there are easier ways to do it. You fiddle with. The breaks you fiddle with a helicopter, I mean, there are a lot of things there. You can, I mean, the Russians are experts at injections and the arm and stuff. I was told by a Russian spec to that guy that if they wanted to kill me, they would induce a heart attack in the street by just injecting me with someone. So, I mean, there are other ways to do it. And there are too many variables that could go wrong. I mean, even if you directed because there was talk about a police motorbike at the top that was directing people down the tunnel. And, you know, how did the white fiat with the concrete in it? How did it sort of get in the right lane at the right time? There are just so many things it could go wrong. I'm, you know, people say that Henri Paul was told to take a certain route, you know, that it wasn't accidental that he went that way. So, I mean, there are lots and lots of things. So, I mean, certainly, if I had time, I would be interested in looking at this and going right out to First Principle with an open mind trying to-- - Think about your next book. - Have a thank you. - Thank you, Philip. - After Philip, I mean, yeah, I mean, a lot of books will come out for the anniversary, but it doesn't mean the story will go away. We're still looking at, you know, the death of Princess Grace. We're still looking at, you know, death of John F. Kennedy. So, you're absolutely right, you know, and, you know, there's still clearly people around who do know something. One of the people who was involved in the case a diplomat I interviewed, in fact, from my Andrew book. He didn't always tell me the full story on the Andrew book. So, I suspect I'm not gonna get the full story on the other book, but there will be someone who will emerge. And again, a lot of people who died in strange circumstances, you know, people who committed suicide and locked cars and stuff with a lot from the outside. So, yeah, yes, well that would be a great book. And if no one does a good book in a year's time, then that might add that to the list. - Have you ever uncovered any evidence or things that could point to the possible existence of evidence that Princess Diana in any way was aware of the existence of Jeffrey Epstein and perhaps his relationship with people in the royal family? - Well, I haven't, but I have come across the fact that Prince Edward was in touch with Epstein in 1996. So, before she died. - Prince Edward? - Yeah. So, if Epstein had targeted Edward, I mean, mighty have targeted Diana. There's no reason for him to target Diana. You know, he wanted the cute awesome being involved with the royal family. Diana really wasn't very useful to him in that way. - Really? - Well, you know, she didn't have the contacts that he always did. She didn't have, okay, I mean, maybe, what could you do for him and what could you do for her? It doesn't sort of, I can't see why there might be a connection there. But, you know, who knows, you know, I think there are clearly stronger connections who removes the royal family and Epstein. And those hopefully will emerge. And maybe she will come into the story. I mean, the other great mystery, which I've got hints of and everyone's talked about Megan, the York girl and Andrew. But I had an interesting story for all of my Thai sources who knew nothing about those rumors who has a story of Megan in Thailand in 2012. - Megan Markle. - Megan Markle. And her buying, not paying for some fabric that she wanted, I think, to make some a shirt or something. And if we can, you know, make that, I mean, of course she can go to Thailand, doesn't connect her with Andrew. But it does, if we can connect the two of them in Thailand at the same time, then that begins to give some sort of substance to some of the rumors that have been circulating for years. - And what are those rumors? - Well, the rumors are that Andrew wasn't involved with Megan Markle and that's one of the great secrets. And there's a guy called HG2 Tudor who's done a podcast claiming to have an MI5 document proving this, but he hasn't shared that document. He doesn't explain how he's got hold of it. But, and also, it's not something that MI5 would be investigating. It's something MI6 would be investigating. You do find assumptions. - If you just got recruited by MI6, so you can get on this when you get in there. They've been on Dev's LinkedIn. - Right. - People think that MI6 is looking at. - Right. Well, yes, gosh. Well, yeah, I'd love to stay in touch. That's wild, so they may have a document that connects that. - So if that's true, I mean, if, you know, that's, that is one of the interesting things that people are looking at, the Megan Markle and Andrew. And they, every so often, you'll see things and they'll suggest that there's a picture on a boat of Megan and there's a picture of Andrew at the same boat, but it's always someone else. I mean, he certainly hung around in Thailand quite a lot. He used to stay at the man called Johan Eliash's house. He had an affair in Thailand with Cornelia Guest, who's of course quite a well-known American figure. - What about the, some other stuff in Thailand? - Well, I mean, you know, the story got picked up was about the 40 prostitutes in Thailand. - Yeah, of what technical gender? - Well, that was a really interesting thing that I dropped in. This was from my Thai source, actually. And my Thai source is a member of the Thai Royal family. And her driver was very friendly with Andrew's driver. And she, the driver said that he used to drive, basically kind of tea boys to Andrew's parties. Now, that doesn't mean that Andrew got involved with them, but it does seem kind of weird. - That's a little weird. - But it does back up the stories, I mean, the, you know, the numerous stories of the bisexuality. And bisexuality is, you know, something that is not, you should we say, unknown to members of the Royal family. - Guy, that's so strange. That whole thing, what a, what a, man, you are going through some interesting. - There are a lot of little red herrings that one could explore. And maybe, as a result of this, people will come forward and they will have stories. And that's always one of the wonderful things. - Yeah, they can give you their number, like Peggy Siegel, apparently. (laughing) - You saw it there, in her own hands. - That was in her hand right, too. I did, it didn't look like mail handwriting, I thought of that. But that's still wild. I gotta ask you about that off camera some more. But the other thing is we just did like a lot of work on the forensics and investigation with some experts around like the Charlie Kirk investigation in America, which is certainly a mess and all that. And one of the main focuses there is like the procedure of the autopsy and the timeline and everything. I think I raised this point in a recent podcast and I'd never really actually pulled on this thread enough and looked it up. How much do we know about like the autopsy that was conducted on Diana and when that was conducted? - Well, I think the interesting thing was the Royal family stepped in very quickly to control it. I mean, she was embalmed very quickly, which of course were destroyed in the evidence of drugs and things. So none of the proper autopsy's were done. - Where was she embalmed in France still? - In Paris very, very quickly that night. So none of the procedures were followed and that was course was always the argument about Edstein's death. And again, the proper procedures weren't followed and autopsy reports weren't released and looked like the death scene had kind of been mocked up. So I mean, of course, big story, big questions about Edstein's death. So yeah, I mean, I think the important thing is to be agnostic on these things. I mean, some people will religiously say that's impossible, it's just made up but they don't have any evidence it's made up. - That's right. - People more often, of course you've got to make your case that it might have happened. But you know, and all these stories, there are lots of unanswered questions and what one has to do is try and answer them. - My friend Joseph Scott Morgan, who is the death investigator in Forensic Sky I've had in for years who was just in here putting on a masterclass about the Charlie Kirk thing. One thing that he says very respectfully but deliberately to drive it home to people, as he says, I don't mean this in an inhumane way at all, but the instant a homicide victim expires their body becomes the prime piece of evidence. It tells the most of the story that he needs to put together to determine what happened here. And one of the things I couldn't get out of my head is forget the enbalming that happened. I guess that night while her body was still in the hospital but it's very famously understood that when Diana died, they just left her body in that hotel room and people were coming in and out, people from her life throughout the day and like paying their respects by the body for hours, so much so that they opened up the window right there to make sure that enough air could get in. So, you know, it's in the hospital, in the hospital. And it's like, you know, most famous woman in the world was just killed under interesting circumstances. Imagine all it took is one little second if someone needs to go do something to that body or maneuver it in any type of way to hide what needs to be hidden. That's wild to me. - Well, I think one of the suggestions was that she was killed in the ambulance at the door of the San Pete hospital. And it was Mossad or whatever agents who were in the ambulance who administered the final dose or whatever it was at Goddard. That's certainly something I've read. - You ever read the book, Gideon Spies? - Well, I used to represent Gordon Thomas. - Oh, that's a yes. - So, yes, I know you Gordon Thomas. [BLANK_AUDIO] - One of the-- - Did he die under? - Well, he died much earlier than people expected. He had strong links. I wouldn't get too involved with him, I say. He was very close to links with Mossad. - Damn it. - But I went and stayed with him. He was always short of money. And he met a lot of money in his life from these books. And he was living as a tax exx island in Ireland. And I went out to see him outside Dublin. And he'd just done quite a lot of money. And he was saying to pleading poverty. And so I only got this sack of rice to feed my family at the moment. And I said, "Well, what about the 50,000 you got the other day?" He said, "I bought a sports car with that." - I will say this. That was a book that I had. That when I was reading it for the first time and reading that first chapter, I had a verbal, like, alone by myself reaction of, like, dropping it. Like, what the fuck did I just read? Where he's telling this story. I've talked about this before. But he's talking about this kacha with Masad, who I think he called Peter or something like that. And he's going through how, well, you know, all agencies, CIA, Masad, MI6, they have safe houses throughout Europe. Paris is certainly a hot spot. So this case agent, Peter is rolling in Paris. And his target is at Ritz Hotel. Because that's where a lot of Middle Eastern power money meets for oil deals and stuff like that. And the way Gordon explained it is, he goes to get a great source at a place like that. It's about splitting the difference. And by that, he meant, you don't want a janitor, 'cause they're too low. They don't know enough that's going on. But you also don't want the manager of the whole hotel, 'cause he's too high and he's too present in front of these people and knows all the guests way too personally. You want someone in the middle who has access to them, but can kind of blend in. Which is why he was sitting here on this night with a guy named Henri Paul. And I know he's writing about 1997 right now. And I'm just like, "Oooh!" And then it describes that the guy was outside in the front like Hagel of Press that night at the Ritz where they snuck her out the back and then the rest is history. He was in that gaggle of press as well. And I'm just looking at this going, it doesn't mean anything, 'cause there were a lot of intelligence agencies there at the time to be clear, but you wonder. 'Cause you're like, "It's never just perfectly clean." There's always something that leaves the door open to like something weird's going on here. And that book like that went largely ignored to me as far as like I never knew that until I read it 20 some years after it came out, but that was an insane piece of reporting right there. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know we had very good sources in Mossad, yeah. But I mean, you know, it's very clear that anyone in Henri Paul's position, any security position in a hotel will be a source for intelligence agencies. And clearly, there was a lot of money in Henri Paul's accounts that he couldn't explain. Just in the way, there was a lot of money in the guards at the Manhattan Directional Center, who found Epstein, which they couldn't explain. So it's always about following the money, that often gives you a pretty good sense. - Did you ever have any contact with Elon Max? - Well, no. I mean, I started this book in 2021, so no. - I only asked that because like you've been in London for a long time and everything, and been like a well-known journalist writing book. So, you know, there were a lot of people that just bumped into her. - Yeah, no, a lot of people I know, you knew her. And in some ways, I mean, she was kind of part of my generation. She's a month younger than I am. And she was at Oxford at the same time as at Cambridge, but I never came across her. I mean, she was a little bit too smart for me. I mean, a little bit too smart for you. - Moving in, let's always say smarter circles than I did. - I'm not really sure what you mean by that. - Well, more glittering, you know, she was a much more socialite than me. - Got it. Yeah, I think, weren't we playing tapes of like them making fun of Diana or something? Am I remembering that correctly? Yeah, so she was like around the royal family years, even like before Epstein and stuff. And I think on these tapes, she was talking about how they used to like laugh and make fun of Diana behind her back because she was like the outsider, whatever. - Yeah, she was very well connected, absolutely. Yeah, that whole thing, that picture of like Epstein and Gilan at the little hunting house on the royal estate. - Yes, yes. I mean, there must be more pictures like that. I mean, you know, and that was their sort of insurance policy showing that they were right within the inner circle of the royal family at these private places. Yeah, absolutely. And that was seen as the hat trick. If you could have pictures of yourself taken, you know, on the throne of the In Buckingham Palace, you know, at Balmoral at the little cozy sort of hut and then at Sandringham. So the hat trick. - That was the hat trick to get them all there. And of course, Epstein was, you know, snapping all these pictures, they didn't realize this was all collecting information that could be used against them. Now, one thing I kind of put a pin in my head that you've referenced a couple of times today is this whole thing with Prince Andrew, former Prince Andrew, as the trade on foray. So I want to make sure I understand this 'cause he was trade on foray in the 2000s. But he was involved somehow in the Al Yamama deal as well. Can you just explain his whole like role in anything related to arms deals and trade with the British government? - Yeah, well, he was the trade involved in 2001 and 2011. So, I mean, this was after the deal, but he, it's currently things were going on. I mean, interestingly enough, he was involved with Mark Thatcher in Kazakhstan, the 1990s. And I've put in FOI requests about the Al Yamama deal and they've taken a year and a half to even respond to it and they've just kind of kicked it into the long grass. Normally they have to respond within a month. And what was the out for people out there? What was the Al Yamama deal? - Well, basically, this was about greasing the palm of by British BAE basically to get deals for British industry in the Middle East arms deals. They were greasing people's palms and paying commission. And that was the way the business was done there. And then, of course, there was investigation by the serious fraud office about this was corruption. Now, where Andrew comes into the story is he did go to the serious fraud office and he was having a visit there. And he berated them for doing their job, basically. And said, this is, you know, you're affecting trade by putting kind of ethics ahead of business. But, you know, to be fair, Tony Blair basically said, look, we will, we will, I mean, the problem was, I know this from from friend of mine who worked in intelligence. The Saudis were not going to cooperate with the British and intelligence sharing about terrorism if they didn't allow this to go through. And so the whole investigation was shut down. So lots of people trying to shut it down, but Andrew was certainly one of them. And time and time again, the stories of him, basically, are trying to interfere with institutions. He shouldn't like the serious fraud office. He was involved also with the national crime agency. He was actually picking up information about money laundering. And we now know that he was heavily involved in money laundering. I mean, that was what would happen with the sale of his house at Sunning Hill. There was a lot of the ways that the yorks were paid was through the use of art, for example. I hope so. Oh, jewellery. Jewellery was melted. It was given to his gifts and melted down or passed on. So they would wander money through that? So that was, yeah. And in the way that, you know, Epstein was laundering money for the Russians and Trump. I mean, Trump's-- Trump was laundering money for the Russians with his casinos, for example. I mean, that's pretty well described by Craig Under Unger and others. So I mean, I think this is what's so shocking that any of us involved in transactions would have to explain my payments. But the sale of Sunning Hill was done through secretive trusts, by royal advisors, and Kutzbank, and Farah the Queen's Lawyers. And they did none of the money checks. None of the laundering checks they should have done. They turned a blind eye to all this. So it's a good case of one law for them and one law for everyone else. Now, when Andrew was arrested-- and, deep, I had you pull this up earlier, but we didn't get to it, so we'll bring it back. But the picture you referenced of him after he was released, I guess, on Baylor, however you say it, from the arrest where he actually looked really scared. And he's currently under investigation for his time as trade-on, boy. My understanding is that this is related to him having improper relationships with Jeffrey Epstein while he was in that role. And that's what they're specifically investigating him on. Or am I misremembering that? Well, there are about eight police forces that are investigating him, and they're investigating him for a variety of charges. Someone looking at sex trafficking. We know that 61 were trafficked. And this is why it's ridiculous for the Met. And now there's to say that none of these things happened to Britain. We know that Epstein was putting up girls in flats in Kensington. We know that Andrew, for example, was paying for a mistress in Mayfaira. So there was sex trafficking going on. We know that Gordon Brown has talked about flights coming into airports all over Britain, Essex, Norfolk, Wiltshire, and elsewhere. So I think that it's a they're eight or nine police forces are looking at sex trafficking allegations We also have Thames Valley police, which is the local police to where he was living or all lodge who are looking at That and also what we call misconduct in public office, which is basically abusing a position in public office Now I'm a very cynical about that because it's it's there's some debate about how easy to get a conviction on that Some say it's difficult. Some say it's easy They're using the excuse that he wasn't a paid official and therefore he wasn't and it doesn't Apply to him But the very clear evidence from the Epstein revelations of Basically sharing confidential information both commercial information Diffinatic secrets military secrets We know that he shared information about the sale of the Royal Bank of Scotland when it was being broken off Two people who were interested in buying bits that were being broken off We know that he shared information about during the Islamic banking crisis to David Rowlands Who was actually buying one of the banks which became the bank havelin. So this is Very clear breaking official secrets at and all sorts of other things There are things under the company's act under fraud Fraud at that you could come after him for so in some ways It's the police kind of going off an attention saying oh, we're doing something Sadly, we can't we can't see it to fruition because we can't make it stick There also one of the problems with the sex trafficking is that a lot of the women aren't prepared to come forward because they don't want all the hassle So there's a woman in 2010 who was trafficked to Andrew given the tour of Royal Lord stayed at what went to Buckingham Palace Who's represented by Brad Edwards who you've been talking about right and she First of all threatened to civil action against him Which seems to have gone nowhere sadly, and now she seems to be backing off her case A lot of these women feel intimidated a lot of the signed NDAs a lot of them have been paid off So there is a real danger that you know We will not get the evidence on the sex trafficking. I mean we're very fortunate that Virginia Jaffrey was prepared to go through all the Approbium that she had in order to to go on the record But I think there's plenty of evidence to charge Andrew Also, what they could but what I think would be a very interesting area When they arrested they arrested him and questioned him for I think about seven or eight hours. Did he have a lawyer with him? Yes, he would have had a lawyer with him, and of course he was tipped off He was ready for them when they came from that day, and I mean it wasn't you know It wasn't a dawn raid But there was a worry that he might be a flight risk and the way that Mandelson was a flight risk And he that's why he was arrested But they only arrested him so that they could get search warrants and they've used the search war Parents to Look at Papers and computers and stuff. I think they even went and looked at maybe dug up bits of raw lodge But the fact is Andrew knew he was going to be arrested for months I mean he was burning papers. He was destroying hard drives. He was throwing at mobile phones into the river Just destroying hard drives and throwing phones in the river. So he's been perverting the course of justice He knew they were coming So I'm not going to think they're going to find too much anyway, and that's but what they could be doing is they should be bringing in His associates what they could do is to arrest people like Amanda Stern as private sub-bander Betherskas private secretary David Stern who was at one of his business Officials frankly even Sarah Ferguson and basically use them as leverage to give evidence against him in order to get their conviction To to promise them a lower sentence it for basically doing a plea bargain And that they don't seem to be doing. I mean we've got no evidence that anyone else has been questioned So this all seems to me completely performative, right? You know, we're look at us look at what we're doing I mean we had a ridiculous thing where they went to America to talk to Virginia Jifre's Brother now Virginia Virginia's brother Frankly, there's only come on the scene the last few months. He wasn't there for Virginia Jifre when she was alive The police were not there for Virginia Jifre when she put up all her allegations They ignored them and we have to remember this is not just a story about Virginia Jifre that there are probably six to 70 victims Many just around Andrew possibly, but I mean certainly connected with Epstein and it's not just a story about sex trafficking It's a story about as to say abuse of public office And if you and I had shared confidential information for example, development opportunities in Helmand Province during the the war in Afghanistan We would be in big trouble And the really interesting question is if they're going to bring charges against Peter Mandelson who is doing exactly the same as Andrew Why don't they bring charges against Andrew what are the what is the distinction between the two of them? And is it are they going to use that distinction of one was a paid official and one wasn't as a way of getting Andrew off the hook? But I'll bet my bottom dollar that Andrew will not be charged Because the last thing the royal family want is their secrets aired in public Yeah, you you kind of answered a question I was gonna ask for me, which is you said it it's Performative in your opinion and when I look at this and I just stack up the fact that women have already been blackmailed or paid off He was tipped off about the raid happening. He was openly obviously to someone's knowledge throwing phones and clear and hard drives for months ahead of time like And then he gets arrested. It's like here's your bread and circus people look look. You got an embarrassing picture. There you go Not exactly no The the passport hasn't been confiscated. He's been able to travel He's certainly the male Sunday of reported a visit to a stud farm in France But my understanding is he's been going to Middle East. He's been going to Switzerland He's traveling and I mean nothing has changed and actually what's clever is the King has got him on a private estate No one can actually knows what he's doing. We all assume he's in Sandringham looking at videos But he could be you know looking at video. Well, that's how he spends his time watching videos and Playing video games and stuff like that But actually he may be in downtown New Jersey. I mean, who knows? You know, we may see him in the streets. Stop through your wall You can let it slide down in here. Yeah, we'll pulpit. I'd like to chat. Yeah, I'll cook them like the fucking Thanksgiving dinner But yeah, it's just the double standard is what's really sickening and obviously we have no like to stand on here in America We've seen it. We haven't even gotten a symbolic arrest here. You know what I mean? Like you guys got that low bar But it's just you know I tried to go to 30,000 feet in the air and Look at things how they are and look at ways we can fix stuff. I'm an optimist I you know, I'd love living in this country. I think we got a lot of great stuff here I think looking at it from the American perspective like we have some rot in certain areas and and some things that maybe we're now discovering about the true I guess like grips of power that exists not just here but around the world and I'd like to see Some generational change happen and you know, maybe we can but when you look at all this and you look at a story like Epstein and all the people He was tied to and the lengths it went. I mean as Sicken and widespread as it was sex trafficking was just one of the things he did We're talking about a guy that was involved in arms deals espionage Diplomatic whatever you know around the world was just connected in all these different places. Do you ever wonder about you know the the world being run by a Different group of people then we even know exists if you understand what I'm asking there Well, I mean, I think most people don't believe in conspiracy theories But then you get the the Epstein story and you do believe that there are there is a super elite who are operating in their own interests Across nations working with the television agencies. I mean, I think one of the interesting things about the stories It's seen festivals as sex story then as a financial scandal actually it's an espionage scandal I mean the fact is you know, he had close links with Mossad I mean this is certain stuff has come out now about him being a Russian asset I've certainly talked about an FBI document. I was given showing that Andrew was involved with Russian criminal gangs linked to Russian intelligence services But this is before we even get to the Zoro ranch And the the the woman who found themselves having been operated on to harvest their eggs All the the huge. I mean, we now know from the plans of Zoro ranch that the huge not just medical facilities But all sorts of things that were built underneath the Zoro ranch Other things built beneath it Well, I mean that one of the interesting things about Zoro. I mean we're talking about UFOs It's it's kind of equidistance between error 51 and various other things. I mean, they're all sorts of other sort of stories going on here And one of the interesting things is Zoro ranch is the one error that wasn't investigated It wasn't a rated by the FBI. But the FBI picked up a lot of stuff in both Palm Beach and Manhattan And for example pictures and stuff and we'd never heard about that You know that but you're right. It was all about collecting Compromat So the sex was really just a way into to Compromising people and I mean he was not just inflating the British royal family, but the Norwegians and others I mean he had links to Israel To China and to Russia So this is a huge story and in some ways I mean Epstein may only be in a bit player in a in a bigger story because Epstein's no longer here and yet we kind of to feel the whole thing is still going on. I mean, if there is a kill list, there's Kelly someone else who's organizing that kill list. I mean, that seems not doing it from beyond the grave. And the sort of waves of it seem to move out further and further, the story gets bigger and bigger. More and more people seem to have been drawn in. And I mean, it brings me back, actually, to my first biography, John Bucken, was the thriller writer born in 1875, died in 1940. But his great thing is that the veneer of civilization is very thin. And actually, there are all these people walking around who we feel are respectable people who are actually out to subvert civilization. And this is sort of what we're seeing. We're now seeing, you know, people that we thought we could trust, turning out to actually be working against or in the narrow self interest of these elites, but against the interests of the wider community. And so he was actually quite far seeing and seeing what was what was going on. But, you know, I think I hope more stuff will release. The Epstein story gets bigger and bigger, I think. And I'm always been aware that I've only touched the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, I think of Epstein sometimes, like, if you've ever seen those videos, those nature videos on social media where someone's like pulling on a weed and they're pulling on this weed in the side of like a, in bankman and then going back and forth like this, it's one of those like satisfying videos that you watch. And you see a trickle of water coming out, the more they pull. And then it's a bigger trickle and a bigger trickle. And then suddenly they get the whole weed out and you see like, and all the water comes out. And that's, I really think Epstein is like that weed. Like he's the figurehead and we see him because we've had access to see what an evil man like this and was and that he existed. But he's just like the surface level of some stuff that's below that. Absolutely. And it shows you how easily people can subvert to other people. I mean, how cheaply they can be bought. But I think the other thing is if Virginia Jeffrey hadn't persevered with her case and she would only have persevered with the civil care, only persevered with the civil case after she saw Andrew on Newsnight. So if Andrew, this is back to the point I made about individuals changing history. If Andrew had decided not to do the Newsnight interview, Virginia Jeffrey wouldn't have been so emboldened and outraged that she brought a civil case. The story, you know, it was dead. It had been, you know, the depositions have been closed ever and have forgotten about it, she'd been dismissed. None of this stuff would have come. But I mean, in terms of your unraveling, it's exactly the same with the royal family and this is what they're nervous about. You start picking it to, you know, the loose thread of the bit of clothing and start pulling it and actually you then find the garment begins to disintegrate, you know, and that's what they're worried about. Once and this is why of course they never want to let light into the into the institution because once you have the light and the transparency, suddenly people think, what are we doing here? What are we paying? Why are we paying these people? What do they actually do? And it's, you know, then wider questions. And this is what Andrew of course has done. He's allowed people to begin to ask questions and shine some light, not enough, but, you know, they must curse him because in some ways it was all going very smoothly. They were able to keep the whole show in the road with this performative smoke and mirrors operation. And now the whole thing is disintegrating. So everything's disintegrating. And I share your optimism that eventually, you know, good will come through this. People, enough people will feel emboldened to speak. There will be pressure. There will be, you know, we've eventually had Andrew lose his position. And I think eventually there will be people. I mean, they may be low hanging fruit in the states, but eventually some people I think will be brought to justice. I hope you're right about that. I don't know at this point if that's the case. It seems like they'll just distract from everything. But I hope you're right about that. And, you know, I got my little corner of the internet and I'll do whatever I can to shine a light on that stuff, just like you're shining light on it with your books. And I think there's enough people who are at least awake to that to try to make a point of this and improve it for the next generations. But it's just, you know, sometimes it is hard not to be a little bit cynical when you see the worst crimes going on the answer for you, you know? Yes. And people, you know, behaving badly, very openly and almost provocatively. I mean, like Trump and just giving two fingers. And I mean, that was when I think one of the frustrations with Andrew, people knew about Andrew's bad behavior. And that's why I think why they've come forward now. But they could do nothing about it. They would be penalized if they said anything. And the fact that they would go to the queen or the queen's private secretary and be sent away with a flee in the ear, you know? And that's a clear ear. Well, it's a British term, but basically, but basically away with as we, as the major at my school would say, away with your capers. So they, you know, and that's very frustrating to feel the whole system, the whole international rights, you know, legal system, international relations, all these things are crumbling, all the structure is going. And who do you believe? It's a free for all of the rich and powerful. And that's, and if one can kind of stop that, that there is a rules-based system. And we can get back to an ordered society in which we have a responsibility of the wider community, then that will be a good thing. Why do you think Andrew did do that interview in 2019? Because he thought he could get the better of a skilled journalist. Because he thought he could set the record straight and he could tell his lies and no one would challenge them. Because he's so stupid that he didn't prepare for it, his advisors were so stupid they didn't prescribe the terms and the control, which of course even a fearless celebrity would have done. So it's about to this hubris, it's about to this arrogance and, and this sense of invincibility, which he'd always had. And he just thought it would continue. But, you know, I think maybe in the hands of a less-scaled interviewer, I mean, he might have got away with it in a less deferential press. He might have got away with it. Or is that lady's name again? Emily Maitless. Yeah, Emily Maitless fucking, she killed him. She was good. Yeah, no, no, she kind of led him into the trap and he walked into it. And I think, you know, clever, clever by having a pretty female person, he thought he could kind of charmer and did it be fine and, you know, with the rest of his history. The rest of his history. It's interesting though, because I asked you towards being in this conversation, like what you think and and you're like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you were saying like, yeah, I am someone who supports the idea of the royal family existing and the tradition of all that. What's interesting to me about that though is, is you've reported on so much of the underbelly of it and this whole conversation, like you're running through all the crazy shit and the bad stuff that they do. And in a lot of ways, you're a guy and I'm not faulting, you know, I think it's great reporting you do, but like you're a guy that's like, almost reporting on the things that would take it down. So how do you write this too? It's a very far accusation. And if you write about rogue roles, then clearly you're going to, you know, it is going to be negative. I see it as a corrective and it may be that the Prince Philip book, you know, actually is a very positive book about about a member of the royal family. I mean, I think I've said some pretty, pretty positive things about him. And as I go with an open mind and there will be things there that's critical, but I think largely it will be pretty positive. And yeah, I mean, one of the accusations is be careful what you wish for, you know, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be raising these things. I mean, my argument is I'm in favor of monarchy, but not a corrupt monarchy. And it's not my job as the messenger, not to report things. It's their job to correct things. I mean, I'm not making this up. This is their behavior and they need to correct it. You know, do I turn up blind eye to bad behavior because I just are worried about the consequences? Or do I kind of report as fairly anonymously as I can about what I've found and leave them, hopefully. And this is why I keep saying, you know, reform, modernize, it can be corrected. You can get wind back, you know, the support of the public and respect. But let's not, I don't think there's a justification for turning a blind eye because you're worried about the consequences. You know, there are a lot of people who will, who do take that position that basically the royals are above the law that they can do what they want because we want to protect the institution. But again, you know, you can behave, you can believe in parliamentary democracy, but not necessarily support some of the prime ministers, for example, as part of it, you know, the system, it's not the system. Well, but I tell you where there is a problem. If you are, if it was just about two bad apples about Andrew and Fergie, then that would be one thing. But I think the worrying thing I discovered was it was about systematic and endemic corruption with institution and others. But again, clean up the act of everyone. There are plenty of people who are perfectly above board in the way they operate. I mean, I don't think Prince Edward's getting up to staff. I mean, Prince of San or any of these other people. And they must feel that they're all their good works being undermined. by all these people who are playing the system. Clean up the bad behaviour. It doesn't mean that the institution itself isn't intrinsically bad, and that's a distinction that constantly needs to be made. But of course, if you're concentrating on the negative, but again, you know, people said my book on Mountbatten was critical. Actually, if you read it and most people who make this for themselves haven't bothered to read the books, you'll find that actually it's much more pro and generous towards Mountbatten, particularly on issues like Indian Independence and D.E.P. than most of the writers. So I think I- Until that last chapter. Until that last chapter. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.