Andrew Huberman's GLP-1 Expert Reveals Big Pharma & Peptide Lies | Dr. Abud Bakri

(upbeat music) - So you're telling me, you got this organization nonprofit over in the West Bank? - In Gaza, actually. - In Gaza. - Yeah, yeah. - How long have you had that? - October 21st, 2023, so now. - Well, you got right on it. - Yeah. - So what are you doing over there? - So we are the only, as far as I know, telehealth organization that provides care of patients in Gaza. We connect them with doctors across the world. We have like 2,000 doctors on our registry, every specialty. They get instant access. We use WhatsApp to connect doctors to patients. And then they get a prescription from us. They can take it to any pharmacy and we'll pay for the meds for them. - That's cool. - And then now we buy a pharmacy or have a pharmacy there and we use that to distribute the meds to them. - So that, and now you've had it for about three years, like how effective has it been, obviously, 'cause you're over here operating it as well. It's wild over there. - Yeah. Like we have a bunch of employees on the ground there. Farmers, guys that deliver the meds, all those things. And they're bringing Gaza band from going in. - Right, you said, you told me your family's from the West Bank, right? So you go there a bunch. - Yeah, through Jordan. - Yeah. And are you a citizen of Jordan too? - I do have a Jordan citizen. - Wow. - I think I was thinking about this earlier. I think you're the first Palestinian guy of had on the show. - No way. - Actually. How do you, do you think that's even a solvable situation over there? - Not with the current heuristics, let's say. I think, I think the two-state solution is a lie. It's been a lie for 30 years. - It's a lie. - Yeah. - I mean, I was 15 years old. I landed in the West Bank through Jordan. It's the first time I go there like as a cognizant person, let's say. And I'm walking in the city of Hebron, small city. There's a Jewish quarter. There's the Palestinian Arab side. And I'm like, this is impossible to split. It's in the heart of the West Bank. I'm like, it's impossible to split this up. You're not gonna move out the Jewish settlements inside of the city. Nor are you gonna have the Palestinian just abandon that part of the land. So I'm like, ah, it's probably not gonna work. - Yeah, I mean, it's just one of those things, like even before October 7th, obviously it's been going on for a long time. You just look at it and you're like, it's so deep-rooted. It goes all the way back. This didn't start in like 1948 or anything like that. It's long before that. And you were also telling me your family was obviously there long before that. As well, what was it, your grandfather was involved? - My great grandpa. So in '36 there was this giant riots. Like, there was killing going on. My grandpa, actually, or great grandpa, hit a family of Jews in his basement cellar. They were going around killing each other. My grandpa hides his family. Till this day, we're in contact with them, actually. - Oh, wow. - Yeah. - The whole family. - Yeah. - Like, do you guys have conversations, obviously, about what's going on? What's that like? - So that's specifically family. They're more liberal-minded Israelis so that they believe in a two-state solution. Which, I think, preoccupied seven people believe in that. And they want what's good for everybody, right? But I think after the after the after 17 things got worse. - For sure. - Yeah. - Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge help. Thank you. - Now, you were telling me, so your family in the West Bank, I want to make sure I have this right. They're from an area where it's not settlements because the settlements more happen in the North. - Yeah, certainly. - There's settlements in, so he brought us a city that my family's from. That's where Prophet Abraham's buried. So, holy to Muslims, Jews and Christians, you'll find a lot of pilgrims there going to that site. There's a, it's called the Cave of the Patriarchs. You got Abraham, Isaac, Rebecca, Lay, all the, make sure our Patriarchs are buried there. So, it's holy to both sides. So, you'll find that city. There's a Jewish enclave inside the city, which is kind of unique in the West Bank. Now, more of the settlement stuff you'll hear lately is the area between Ramallah and Nablus. Now, you'll find a lot of things happening up there. It's on the North and part of the West Bank. You'll see problems happening between settlers and Palestinians. - Right. So, in running this organization, everything, like you said, you have people on the ground and everything, it's an insane war zone, though, as well. So, there's all kinds of issues all the time. Have you run into problems with being able to get your resources to the right people and what's happened there? - Yeah, so like when the war started, we had Egyptian borders to open. So, we would get meds through Egypt into Gaza. - Oh, you do it through Egypt. - That's what we used to do. Then the Egyptian borders shut down. - Yeah. - Rafa has closed. So, we couldn't get meds in. So, we'd have to buy meds on the ground. There's a lot of hoarding that happens. People up sell and up price their meds. So, we have to buy it from certain places. Like a lot of meds actually exist in storage facilities and no one's actually accessing them. So, we were actually able to get the meds out of the storage facilities into the patient's hands, which was nice. - That's cool. So, but people are basically like grabbing these and creating a black market out of it. Who's doing that? - Local people. - Yeah. - Every war zone, there's people that take advantage of it. - Yeah, never let a good crisis go to waste. - There you go. - My whole profit, that's fucking nuts. - I know. - What a mess. - It's a mess. - What a mess. - Well, I'm glad we bring in, talk about some fun stuff today. - Yeah. - So, I got pads. - I got my box of peptides here from Yo's Funny because Amanda and I were sitting here doing some guest hunting like a month ago. And we were just coming up with ideas for stuff and she's like, we should really do a podcast on peptides. I'm like, fuck yeah. I don't know, I think about peptides, but I had seen maybe like five, 10 minutes of your podcast with Huberman and like, that's the guy. So it's nice to have you here. But you are just so people understand your background out there, you're a doctor, you have your own practice and everything, you're also a younger guy too, 33, right? And how long have you had the practice? - I've been out of residency now for three years, three and a half years ago. - But obviously like your fit guy, your bodybuilder, so that's been the craze with peptides and certain facets and now it's reached a whole bunch of other people. So we'll get into all of it today, get some real education on it. You guys are gonna watch me learn life about this 'cause I really don't know much about it. But you know, before we get to the actual peptides, like was medicine something you always wanted to do growing up? - Yeah, I think since like 9th grade and you know what I was gonna be in medicine. - Why? - The moment I opened up biology textbook and I saw the way the inputs and outputs work. I was like, this is something I wanna figure out and know how to game and optimize and it just was natural. - Yeah, you seem like a really good people person too, a kind of job, right? - Yeah, yeah, it's good people. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, the science part of it is very pleasing. I think medicine now has lost its soul, unfortunately. - Lost its soul. - Yes, medicine used to be like this godly, humanistic endeavor. You knew your patients, insurance companies weren't involved. Now it's just about getting patients in and out of the hospital. You could say in some ways like when a patient becomes a Medicare asset, it's a little bit of a human trafficking game. - A Medicare asset, that's kind of dark. - It's dark 'cause what ends up happening? - I'm an internal medicine doctor, so I do my private practice. That's my conscious practice where I take care of elite performers that wanna optimize their game. And then on the hospital side, we take care of patients that are getting admitted to the hospital with heart failure, liver failure, kidney disease, whatever it may be. So on this side I'm preventing you from getting there, on this side I'm treating you if you are there. - That's interesting. - Yeah, so it's the full spectrum of the medical system. Now what ends up happening is the medical system becomes in the nanny state and the retirement home and the drug treatment center for all these societal ills, right? So a patient doesn't have family members around their Medicare asset, let's call them. They get into the hospital. The hospital tries to get them out of the hospital as soon as possible, so they come in for a heart attack. They probably need two, three weeks to recover. We're gonna get them out in one week to a nursing home. They're gonna be in a nursing home. They're gonna be packaged back up. Nursing homes are a big scam. - Package back up. - That's unfortunate to talk about this. And it's like our elderly people that we should be taking care of. But they get put into nursing homes. - Nursing homes are a scam. That's gonna be like the next Netflix documentary. - Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't made that yet. I feel like a lot of people out there are nodding their heads right now going. Seeing that. - By the way, it's a great money maker if anyone is entrepreneurial. - Yeah. - They don't take care of patients at all. Like, I had a patient once. They came in, they had no blanket on window open. It's in the middle of winter. It's not too cold in California, but this patient came in hypothermic to the ICU. I'm like, "Dude, that's the $30,000 admission that we could have saved. Have they just put a blanket and close the window?" - Oh my God. - While they're trying to toughen them up, I guess. - Yeah, I mean, it's like Ben is still there and happy to go more. - It's like ice baths, right? (laughing) - So that this patient gets sent to the hospital. They get packed back up. They, you know, the ER doctor gets paid. The surgeon gets paid. The cardiologist gets paid. They package them back up, send them back out. The ambulance driver gets paid. The nursing home gets paid again. - And it gets paid. - And then you just go back and forth. Everyone swipes their credit card on this poor patient. And I'm like, oh my God, this is such an unsustainable system. And then most of the medical costs will happen in life. - Dude, and that part makes sense in when you first look at it, that obviously you run into way more health problems on the average towards the end of life. But there's something so dark about like that transforming from when you're a young person, it's a very small percentage of like your monthly cost to your old person. It's like, fucking 90% just to like try to be healthy after you've lived your life. Like in our culture in America, I think about this a lot, we don't have the customs that a lot of other cultures have about family living with family and taking care of each other with the circle of life. Like I'm so jealous of like the Italian customs, the Greek customs and things like that. Like there's just something in the fabric of what we've done. we've built here culturally a lot of our culture I like, but like this is something that's a huge blind spot to me. - Yeah, that's a big problem. And then that ends up beyond the back of the medical system. If you have a schizophrenic cousin, usually before that would be taken care of by somebody in the family, now you just dump them in the hospital. And then the hospitals take care of them. They end up homeless. It's really bad system for people. - Yeah. - So. - Did you know a lot about the system before you started to get into it? - No, I think every medical student comes in with like dreams of saving the world and helping their family and being this, you know, after a sick person and then the system beats it out of you. - Right. Which is kind of a shame, but it also takes people who are in it and see it and live in it to be able to like come out like you and use a platform and explain like, "Hey, we got some problems here, let's fix it." That does feel like something that if there's something good to come out of the pandemic, I've seen more of that over the past four or five years. - I'd say so. - I never really heard a lot like that before. - Yeah, I think the pandemic accelerated the timelines on these things. Because I think the medical system can't make you healthy. Like you can't expect your doctor to make you healthy. The doctor is there to treat you if you get sick. The medical system tried to act like they were gonna make people healthier through the government or through, you know, insurance models. They can't make you healthy. They can only treat you if you're sick. It's on you to get healthy. Your doctor's not gonna be with you in the gym. They're not gonna eat the food with you. They're not gonna make you sleep better. So that's why a lot of direct consumer companies now are trying to figure out how to fill that gap. - Yeah, which can get dangerous too. - Yes, and it's a lot of grifters that get into the space. But the problem is like if you come into a doctor's office, you have 12 minutes, I'll never do it with a doctor. They're not gonna be looking at you 'cause they're gonna be typing on the computer. - We're like doing the lower orientation force of that. - Yeah, see you in a few times. - So now AI's helping out with that at least. But the doctor doesn't know you. Like before, your family doctor would know your grandpa, would know you, know your mom, would know everybody in your family. Would know your unique circumstances. - Yep. - Your doctor now doesn't know you doesn't care about you. They're just trying to get home to their family and try to document bill for insurance so they can get the right code. Insurance denies the payment for the doctors. The doctor is like miserable. So we've become commodified assets as far as doctors. - A lot of fine assets. - Yes. - This is so tough to hear. - Yes. - That's true. - Yeah, 'cause doctors don't run hospitals anymore as much. Hospitals need to be run by doctors. Now they're run by administrators. They want to cut costs. So people have to care of their own health. - Yeah. - Microdose is something new lately and it is not what you think. A lot of people refer to it as nature's wine. And the mushroom I'm talking about is Amanita Muscaria. You know, the red one with the white spots that's appeared in every fairy tale ever. But here's the thing, unlike psilocybin microdosing, Amanita doesn't push you into a psychedelic headspace. It's more like a gentle nervous system reset. It calms you down without making you foggy. Helps you focus without the jitters and makes sleep way deeper without the hangover. A lot of people are using it as an alcohol replacement or a (beep) alternative because it gives you that relaxed warm feeling without the downsides. No paranoia, no next day brain fog and no dependency issues. And if you're someone who's tried other new tropics or adaptogens and felt like they didn't do much, you're not alone. Amanita actually does something. Settle it low doses, but it's real. And the only brand I trust with Amanita Muscaria is Aman Tara. They're the real deal. Clean sourcing, no synthetics, no sketchy additives, and they actually educate people instead of just pushing product. I personally like to take some of their blue lotus extract capsules before I go to sleep. It gives me deep well-rested sleep, vivid dreams, and I'll wake up without any type of hangover, ready to roll. So check out Aman Tara today at www.amantara.com/go/julian that link is in my description below and use discount code JDP22 for 22% off your entire order. Once again, that's www.amantara.com/go/julian link in my description below. Code JDP22 at checkout. - Yeah, I was actually talking with a guy the other day who is a doctor by trade and spent many years as a doctor and was able to become the CEO of the hospital there. And it was like so refreshing to hear 'cause you don't hear that much anymore. You hear much more like there's the business guys and there's the doctors. But this is a guy who came up in it, gets it, and understands how to solve those problems. I feel like doctors are really smart people. We got to find a way to do more of that to where people that actually came up in the rank and file and like understand what's being faced, get put in the position to run the business. 'Cause like it sucks to say it like that. It is a business like there has to be incentives for people to wanna enter it and there has to be a way that things are run organized so it doesn't lose money. But there's a way to do that more humane and you keep referring to it. I think we should obviously continue to bring this up like the insurance system is just fucked, man. I mean, we all know it from the patient side of how much patience gets fucked, get fucked by insurance. But like, I think some that also needs to be talked about is what you're bringing up, which is how much it affects the medical field. So like you guys, the professionals doing it. For people out there who are totally unfamiliar with how that might work, you mentioned a few minutes ago about sometimes doctors are trying to get things approved and they can't get approved. What are the biggest two or three biggest problems that as a doctor you run into with insurance companies on a daily basis? - Yeah, like compensating for imaging in labs. Like let's say you come into my office, you wanna check your vitamin D levels. You're like, you know, I don't think I get enough vitamin D. I can't order that for you and get it covered unless I have evidence that you have low vitamin D. But how am I gonna know you have low low vitamin D if I'm in charge of your level? So then I obviously I like to suspect low vitamin D, you know, depression, mood disorder, whatever. Maybe it's kind of bullshit code. To get you to, I think order you this $10 maybe, $20 at most, insurance is gonna build that for 50, 60 bucks to get it compensated for the $10. It's a whole scam on that side. That's a problem. And then let's say you come in like, hey, you want, you hurt your knee, first of your knee working out, I want an MRI. I think I have an ACL or a miniscule injury. Insurance would be like, yeah, you know what? Maybe he can do PT first. It's like, no, I'm pretty sure he has a 20 ACL. He needs, you know, got to protect you. Hopefully you don't ever need that. But like, I think he needs a MRI. And then the insurance would be like, nah, he didn't authorize. And then by the time it gets authorized, you're waiting two weeks for the patient to get the MRI and get connected with the surgeon. The patient's four months out and they haven't got surgery yet. That's, that's really unfortunate. Especially if you have an HMO versus a PPO. And then you also like, what about the percentages of like payouts and stuff? It seems like they're taking a huge big on the other end. So correct me if I'm wrong here. It's also compared to maybe 30 years ago. End pay for doctors. It's much less way lower, right? Yeah. Even the number has gone up, but with time, it's not commensurate with the inflation numbers or the rise in medical expenditure as a whole. I said doctors, now doctors when we were younger were kind of like the ballers in the community always. Not so much anymore, like it's like a pediatrician. They're barely paying their mortgage and their medical school loans. So see this, I take a huge issue with because you guys also go to school for such a long time. You're doing something that helps people or is to try to, try hope that's why people are trying to get into it, right? And it obviously takes a high level of intellect to be able to do the job. So if I'm going to have something even be expensive, which we all want to try to figure out how to bring healthcare costs down everything. But let's say it stayed expensive for a minute. I would feel a lot better about it if I knew the money were going to the person who's actually putting in the time to treat me because it also incentivizes them to get better at their job and be able to spend more time. When the money's going to some fucking business somewhere that gets to decide this shit behind the scenes, it also disincentivizes doctors to be greater. Exactly. And doctors don't really care about being great 'cause technically the sicker that you are, the more visits that happens. And it's not the doctors themselves, like I'm not shitting on doctors. It's really just the way the system's set up. It doesn't really incentivize good outcomes for you. And the insurance company knows they have you for three to four years. So they don't really care if in 10 years you're healthy or not. So it's not the incentive to drive outcomes and if there's no incentive for you to be healthy, then who's going to make that decision? The federal government's not doing a good job at this. - Clearly. - Yeah. Like I know everyone who wants some Medicare for all and all that stuff, but that's not well run. - I mean, the government's running a system that's like non-operative at my level. - Crazy. - I never heard of that. - Wow. - Like go to the DMV. That's what you want the hospitals to be like that? - Unless Steve's mom's there. He holds it down there. - Yeah. - Donatee at the DMV. - I'm going to move out here then. - Yeah. - I don't want to go to DMV again. - You're hooked up at the DMV. You shouldn't take any shit. I wish everyone was like Donatee. But yeah, like obviously government run agencies for some reason, you know, maybe a lack of incentives by the way, right? Because they're all on the same kind of salary. Like why would you try harder? - Yep, I did my training, the majority of it at a VA. So I took care of veterans. - Oh wow. - Yes. - What was that like? - Amazing, but partially because of the VA's terrible. They don't take care of the vets that they should be taking care of. I think the vets deserve a little bit better care. Luckily for me, the VA allowed me to have very minimal pages per day. So I could take an hour with every patient I wanted. - Oh, that's cool. - And help with an intro for some of this. But Uncle Sam doesn't check who orders what, the VA just covers things. Like there's only insurance company, the VA. It's the VA just covers everything. - Right. - So I could order whatever I wanted for the patient when it comes to lab work, when it comes to working them up, checking, you know, cardiac markers, testosterone levels, getting them on GLP ones. So I ran kind of a concierge practice out of the VA for these back-end vets. Like talk to the VA kind of stuff before, but this has been great. - And edit, he got charged. - Yeah, yeah, there you go. - I'm kidding, I'm kidding. But if you're gonna do it, like by the way, like that's the place where guys should have absolutely no red tape to be able to get shit. - Yeah, no, it's great. - You're gonna do a way better job with our veterans. - Like I had a guy, he was like 300 pounds. He needed to get knee replacements on both knees. They wouldn't replace his knees until he lost weight. So they sent him to gastric bypass surgery. The bypass surgery was like, "Hey, at least 10 pounds first. Show me your committed before I'll do the surgery." Now this is, yeah, I know, that's crazy. This is 2021, Ozymbic. - You're winning your committed, that's why. - Yeah, Ozymbic's about to get approved. for obesity at the time. From the body, the circle's already knew it was working. It's guys like a low-grade diabetic. I switched all those meds to ozemic. He loses 60 pounds over the next few months. He's like, "I don't need the gas for bypass surgery anymore." He's like, "You know what? "I don't need the knee surgery anymore." Because my knees feel better. I've just lost all this weight. And it was a microdose, like a numb, let's say mini-dose of this medication, the VA paid for it, and the guy had a great outcome. So, you could really manipulate the system and make it work for you if you're committed to it. - Now, you're doing all this. Was that during, am I understanding correctly? Is that during, like, residency? - Yes, in residency, yeah. - Okay, so with medical school, obviously, you do four years on the grad. You do three, four years of actual medical school. - Four years medical school. And then you do three years residency. - Resonies three to seven to eight, depending on what you want to do. - That's also crazy, too, because you look at expenses. Now, doctors might be coming out like to finally actually have a job at, like, age 36. I have been spending a fucking million dollars or whatever, one education. They got to take loans on that. And now they're also getting less take home or the insurance, that's nuts, man. - Yeah, like, the proceduralist, like the people do like GI doctors, they do colonoscopies, surgeons, cardiologists to get compensated a little bit better, than your non-procedural doctor. - But you say in like pediatricians, I'm gonna say the least, that's crazy. - They're terrible. They think care of kids. - Yeah. - They don't get compensated well at all. And it's a very challenging job, 'cause I take care of a one-month-old, and a 17-year-old is a completely different job. - It's like a horse and a doll. - Yeah, exactly. - Like, so these poor pediatricians have to deal with all that. - That's crazy, man. Because, you know, I also think that's, I don't know what your thoughts are here, but I think that's one of the problems incentive-wise in big pharma, too. They're not, they make money on a subscription model. They're not incentivized to heal you. - That's right. - Yeah, and that's why like a lot of these compounds they'll talk about today. They come out of like Soviet research. - Soviet research. - Yes, yes. - So they were incentivized. - No, Soviet research, they wanted you to perform better, to better astronauts. - That's right. - To better shoulders, to win at the Olympics, and to keep-- - Less than communism wasn't all bad. - Yeah. - I mean, people, people-- - I'm joking. - People starved, but at least they had grenades, right? (laughing) - Yeah, we had good athletes. - So long as it was getting to the people that mattered. - Yeah, it's like there's only two options, that you know, BCD epidemic, Stalin or GLP? - Yeah. - Stalin or GLP, Jesus Christ. Yeah, and I'm gonna want, we're gonna get all the differences between the stuff today, 'cause your boys gonna be learning it right along with all you. And then I'm sure there's people in the audience who are very familiar with this and are maybe using them, so you can tell them what's good and what's not. But when you were coming out and doing the residency, you're doing stuff at the VA, and then you were also telling me, 'cause a boot came and got to work out in this morning of the gym, so we were talking a little bit about this. But you were also telling me that you were on the front lines of COVID for several years there. Was that from like the jump in 2020? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first day of my residency, it was COVID. - Did it just thrown in? - Yeah, it was thrown in. - No, it was freaking out. - So what are you doing? - So I was in Tournamentism Residant at the time, so we do clinic work at the outs of the VA, we do ICU work, and then we do floor, so we're on the regular internal medicine floors, so we rotate between those three things mostly. So like a few months in, we're on ICU, intermediate patients everywhere, people on the ventilators. - Right. - Yeah, it was brutal. - So people, that was the thing, that was a huge mistake that happened at the beginning, they thought they were supposed to treat patients when it got severe with the ventilator, and ended up killing a lot of people. - Yeah, that's the big discussion. It's been like, is the ventilator killing people, or are the people just so sick that we're gonna die anyways? Like there's the conspiracy world. Like when we had a patient, they're on the ER, they're on maximized oxygen therapy. They're on high-flow nasal cannula, which is like pumping 40 liters of oxygen into their nose. - It's a lot. - Yeah, it's a lot of oxygen. And they're setting 85, they're shorter breath. They look like they're about to pass out. Like your option there is put on the vent, or let them die. - Yeah. - So like they were put on the vent. So there's just like, you know, criticism of doctors, and I have a lot of criticism myself, but I think at that point, you had very little options. Now the criticism comes in when they were trying early ventilator strategies. They just vent somebody that was a little bit too early. They could have waited a little bit, I think that was a problem. They could save the person's lungs. Yeah, the problem is that virus, either you had nothing happen to you, and it was just like a little cold, or it got really bad. I think that might have related to some of these peptides we'll talk about today. - I think it's also like, you know, none of us out there were virologists at the time, and then everyone became a virologist. But you learn about one of the basics with viruses is that when they start, they start the most aggressively because it's like, here we go. And then when the virus starts killing the host over and over, it's like, we'll slow down because we need that. So you naturally get a curve. What they ended up trying to do though, was it was like two weeks to stop the curve, and they're like, we're gonna keep the curve the same, no matter what. When did, like how soon did you start to look at any processes that were happening, or how it was being talked about to where you were suddenly like, hold on a minute. It seems a little off. - In early 2020, before lockdowns, we were in our last week of medical school, and we were sitting in the back, like all the bros. And we're, yeah, you know, there's the bros, there's the nerds, you know how to guess. And they're like, that's when they came out and said like, hey, masks don't work, don't use masks. And we all look at each other like, for every virus we encounter, we use masks. Like, what are you guys talking about? Like, something's up. And they're like, oh, we were saying people that, so they don't hoard the masks. They have masks for healthcare facilities. But I'm like, don't lie to people, we're not stupid. - Right. - Like, we as the public deserve truth. And you're not gonna lie to us to manipulate, and then you've already lost my trust. - Right. - And then I'm like, that's kind of weird. And then the videos that were coming out of China, you see on Twitter from late 2019, I'm like, something's fishy with this virus. And then the fact that it infects thymuses, and if you heard the word thymus during this whole pandemic. - Isn't that like the thing up here? - Yeah, whatever. - Yeah, it's the only tissue that shrinks after puberty. - Okay. - So the COVID was attacking the thymus. - Yes, and we knew this early on, and no one talked about it, no one addressed it. - I don't even remember that conversation. - The conversation never came up. Like we had an immune pandemic. The first thing we should talk about is where your immune system gets developed. Like the gym for your immune system is this thymus land. - Really? - Yes. - It's where your immune cells get trained on how to fight infections, cancers, whatever it may be. - Can we pull up like a diagram that's the thymus that people can see it? All right, maybe let's start there. Can you explain this whole thing? - Yeah, that's it. So the thymus, I think, is the most interesting conversation in medicine that no one's having. When I started talking about it for years, I was like, you're crazy. But now nature medicine, 2016, maybe you pulled this up afterwards. It's like showing, it's a thymus study, nature talking about the importance of thymus is for longevity. - So this is right in between your lungs? - Yeah, right on top of your heart? - At the top, on top. - Yeah, when you're young, it's giant. Like it will be this big. And then as you get older, it shrinks. - It shrinks. - It shrinks the only gland that shrinks after puberty. - Is this the thing you were telling me on Twitter yesterday? Epstein didn't have, or whatever. - Yeah, exactly. - He always comes up somehow. - Somehow, somehow he comes up, right? - Is that normal? That's not normal for him to not have one. - After death, so that was his autopsy. After death, it shrinks dramatically, but it's kind of weird. I'm like, why doesn't he have any thymus? That's kind of strange. - But it, okay. So it does, it does shrink, but doesn't disappear. - No, there should be some residue. - Okay, so COVID was attacking this. - Yes. - And you knew that. - Yes. - And they weren't talking. - No one talked about it. - Not even the fouch. - No, and the funny thing is, he's like, he's the most cited person on thymus studies. Because he was, because of his work with the HIV, though, the other virus effects thymuses. - Oh, I don't know about that. So HIV. - Because the t-cells that we talk about come from the thymus. - No shit. - Yes. - As you can tell, I'm not a doctor. - Yeah. - So he was, yeah, the thymus is essential for establishing t-cell diversity early in life, but undergoes profound evolution with age and is therefore traditionally been regarded as largely non-functional in adults. Here we propose this study that I'm reading. The preserving thymic functionality is integral to adult health and longevity. There it is. - So I've been screaming this for the last few years on Twitter, everyone thinks I'm crazy. And then this comes out. It's like, oh, no. - Oh, this is recent. March 22nd. - Yeah. - So I'm saying, but like Dr. Kavinson that came up with all these peptides has been saying this since the 70s. He's a Russian Soviet doctor that's now passed. So like we knew that thymus was important. He did a study in 2021 using thymic peptides for COVID showing dramatically better outcomes. You can look this up. - He's using peptides for COVID. - It's called thymalan. COVID 2021 will become up on PubMed. Were you tracking that when that happened? - That's when I started getting interested in this conversation. I was more familiar with like the American peptide scene. The Russian peptide scene is kind of disconnected given the language barriers, yeah, yeah. But lately, it's been coming together. - Yeah. See that gap? Peptidrug thymalan regulates immune status in severe COVID-19 older patients. - Wow. So peptidrug thymalan isolated from the calv thymus is successfully used for the treatment of various immunopathologies, including those in older age groups. The molecular mechanism of the thymalan immunoprotective action is due to the effects of the short peptides K-E-E-W-E-D-P. In its composition, the short peptides can specifically bind to double stranded DNA and/or histone proteins and regulate gene expression synthesis of immune system proteins, activity of gerontogenes and stimulates stem cell differentiation. Regulation of immunogenesis is a key factor in preventing the development of the cycotein storm. - Cycotein storm. Cycotein storm that develops in severe COVID-19. So hold on, that one sentence. These short peptides can specifically bind to double stranded DNA and/or histone proteins. What does that mean? - So these peptides that are fragments of bigger proteins, they seem to go back into the nucleus of the DNA and they can activate or open up certain regions of the DNA so you can have more gene expression. So what happens is you get older, certain parts of your genome don't get expressed as expressed. so like your iCell and your liver cell have the same exact genome, yeah, your eye cell can see your liver cell can metabolize things, right? The same exact genes between both sides. It's just different gene expression that happens that allows them to be different cells. It's like a different key to the door. Yes. Yes. Okay. And it's like the same library exists, but then different books are pulled out of the library. As you get older, it's less resilient. Let's say there's the eye cells, less eye, the liver cells, less liverish. So then you get kind of these, you know, bland cells and eventually get cancers that are like kind of the ultimate differentiated cell. Yeah. Maybe I'm way off with this, but there was there was this therapy I was told about damn near a decade ago that I still see pop up once in a while called CAR T therapy with cancer. And I believe it was something like they would take out the T cells and inject them with genetic material, put it back in and it would fight the cells. Is that basically trying to like unlock the door here? Yeah. So like the mainstay of figuring out COVID cancer, autoimmune stuff is figuring out how to reprogram immunity. Because I'd say that that's the big aspect of our health that's deteriorated over the last few decades. As our immune systems aren't as resilient as they should be. Why does that happen? Our lives are not commensurate with good biology. Let's say high stress, no recovery, blue light, trash foods, a number of things don't need to optimize. Like for example, the thymus produces a hormone called thymulin. It's a peptide hormone. It's the main hormone produced by it decreases with age. You need zinc for that to work. So if your desire diets deficient zinc, you don't have to tell you like take zinc for immunity. The real mechanism is that it's allowing you to make thymulin. So actually if I were to check you for zinc deficiency, the first sign of zinc deficiency is that your thymulin levels drop even before your zinc levels and your blood drop. And most like standard blood tests don't check for stuff like this, right? You really have to order something specific for that. So like on your CBC, you can look at your lymphocyte to monocyte ratio, which kind of tells you the state of your immune system. You can almost put lymphocyte to monocyte ratio and almost any disease. You know, a study that comes up talking about how the lower lymphocyte to monocyte ratios are associated with worse outcomes for the disease state. So like this is $3 test that everybody has. No one's actually looked at it. I've been tracking that for the last six years. Patients, I'm like, I'll find a patient. They were, let's say in their late 20s, early 30s, they had normal lymphocytes 2019. 2026, they come in diagnosed with a new cancer. And the lymphocyte count is half or one fourth of what it was in 2019. It's question is what caused that? I can think of a couple of things. Yes. Where that's the infection itself or other other things that could cause it could have been multiple factorial on the mat side that these patients are now having these immune problems. Yes. So like there's a doctor, Dr. Patrick Shunchung. He's the owner of LA Times. Oh, I've seen this guy. Yes, he's been, he's been screaming this from the top of the rooftops. Like he's one of the only people that's kind of on the same wavelength and that T cells are gonna be important. You should even have more T cells. He has a drug coming out, like Tiva, that's supposed to like hyper boost these T cells. So the idea is, can you use immunotherapies to to prophylactically defend you against cancers and COVID infections and all these things? Free actively. Exactly. So the idea is like if your lymphocytes decrease with age and they're not as effective, can you take a drug that would then boost your lymphocytes, then you'd be immune against all these different things. Dave, what am I looking at here? Yeah. Oh, that's the comp. Okay. So that's Patrick Shunchung's. And then he's really, he was on Tucker. They were talking about his whole thing. He's like, I never got COVID the whole time and Tucker keeps asking him like, how come you never got COVID? He's like, I'm T cell man. Oh, he wasn't like quadruple Vax. So he said, he said, so what he said about, yeah, he said, they also B cell vaccines is what he said. But I took a T cell vaccine. I took this. So then I had so much immunity that I couldn't get sick is what his claim is. Yeah, at least. So there's a lot of this, like, how can we, you know, different converging trends on how can we modify immune function with their peptides, drugs, hormones, whatever it may be, to get optimal outcomes? Because if this ages before anything else, it's probably bringing down things in that study that you popped up from nature. It found that people that had bigger times this on CT scans had better health outcomes. I would love to see a study that just pulls all kinds of general populations. And if we haven't, I don't even know how you would do this. If you even have the data for it, people that you had it had data on what their diamonds look like, in 2019, it's a year. I pulled it now to see what the average decrease is. Yeah. So like, if you look it up, like, we knew that COVID, in fact, times is this is there's a paper in 2021 that showed this. And we knew that we got CT scans on almost every patient every few days, every day, sometimes, when they run the ICU on the ventilator. So the time is right there. We're looking for lungs. Everyone's ignoring the time is right there. But there was association within thymic reactivity and survival from being on the ventilator. Wow. So one of my hypotheses is that the people that got worse COVID infections in their thymuses had worse outcomes. Yeah. And no one talked about that. We had straight we theoretically had drugs that we could have used to deploy to boost thymic health. What kind of drugs would the Russian drug thymilin? And it was a small study like 40 people in each group. And but they showed that they had better outcomes. So it was worth exploring at least. Yeah. And it's so much to say the word thymus during the pandemic. Like give this key immune organ and no one who mentions it. No one talks about it. Like I'm a I was nice to you 2021. It's my second time around. Rogan's on ongoing. Like hey, how come we're not talking about a boost immunity? I wanted to shout out in the roof. I'm like because we don't measure immunity. Like there's no way for us to track it. So the medical system sucks this because you have a cardiologist that hurt. You have a pulmonologist that lungs. You have endocrine doctors that upset thyroids and your testicles on all these things. Nobody zooms in on immune glands. There's allergy and immunologists. But they kind of focus on allergic disease. A lot of time in those offices. Yeah. They talk about thymuses. Not really. Not really. But that should have been the focus of the of a viral pandemic. And it was that's so fascinating. And it seems de-evolutionary too. Because the reason you keep saying 2019 obviously is because it's right before COVID and lives changed on the average, of course, after that. In the sense that we went inside under lights like this all the time in front of blue lights like this and blue lights like this more than ever before. You start people start working from home on Zoom in front of blue light. They're not outside as much. You're anxious. You're anxious. You're cordoned off from other people for a long time period there. And so you're killing. You're literally killing your immune system just by existing. Yep. Every day because you are existing in a non mammalian environment. Yeah. Yep. So you're selecting for non-resiliency. And then I don't think people were selecting for non-resiliency. Yeah. That's a good bar. Yeah. So it wasn't good. We should have been telling people like how do you supplement? How do you get sort of like we know sun exposure is a key to immune function. Yeah. You were telling me that you care more about sun exposure than peptides. Yeah. And the peptides that I do like are the ones that regulate the circadian rhythm. And this circadian clock is circadian clock and immunity are the two things that are the age faster than the rest of your body. Your pineal gland shrinks before you go through puberty and then your thymus shrinks right after puberty. Interesting. Yeah. And the pineal gland produces meltonin and your meltonin levels dramatically decrease. If you pull up the chart, you'll see them before puberty start dropping. In fact, maybe the drop in meltonin leads to puberty. Right. And then after puberty, you're the thymus shrinks from the effect of estrogen progesterone testosterone. And then you get these two tissues that shrink faster, but some people are more resilient than others. Like there's a study where there's a 95-year-old guy on postmortem autopsy. He has a giant thymus. And he's like, "How come he has a big thymus and other people don't?" And did that lead to a longer? Did they learn things about his life and habits? They don't know. Look at it. That's the problem. That's the problem. That's the problem. That's the problem. I was like, "Come on guys, you should have asked." It could be a genetic predisposition, because it seems that the people who live over a hundred do not live over a hundred because of their habits. They live over a hundred in spites of their habits. Okay, can you explain that more? People live over a hundred or more likely to be smokers than the average population. Right. And it's not because smoking was good for them. It's because they're so resilient to the chronic disease that smoking didn't matter. In fact, they might have gotten some of the benefits of nicotine on some of the cognitive outcomes. So they didn't get. They were protected from cancer because they have anti-cancer genes. They were protected from heart disease because they don't have a predisposition for heart disease. So the smoking didn't affect them on those two fronts. And then smoking has some positive correlations being Parkinson's and dementia as being positive. Anti-diseas, let's say. So these people live over a hundred and they're not healthy. But also, maybe I'm looking at this way too simplified, but think of the places where you might see that. I'm thinking of a couple in my head, Italy and Greece, where I've heard that side. I mean, I trained the blue zone. I'm training in Lomolinda because of this reason. I did Lomolinda, Lomolinda California has the only blue zone. And that's a disputed concept now in America. Wait, blue zone? Yeah, blue zones are these like six places on earth where people are supposed to live longer. Sardina, Italy, Okinawa, Japan. It's kind of debunked, I'll say. But I will say Lomolinda, we had a lot of 90 hundred year olds. Yeah, because I wonder like thinking about the European ones, they live in a culture there that's way lower quarters all just right off the jump. They obviously do in the places I'm thinking of. They have very, very nice climates and stuff. So there's also natural nature around and things like that. But even with the smoking, like I grew up my best friend from all my life is a dual citizen of Greece, right? So he would spend his summers in Greece. I got to go over there and I know his friends from over there and everything. They all smoke, but they roll up just regular tobacco with a paper and it's like a process. They're not chain smoking, you know, four fucking packs of marbarrows a day or something like that. And there was always, I'm not that I'm advocating like smoking anyway, but like there was always something about that and the laid back lifestyle. I'm like, I could see how this could actually net be okay. Yeah, you know, yeah. I mean, the laid back lifestyle is probably the most important. Like we're hamsters in here stateside. We're just running as fast as we can to pay the bills. Yeah, and we don't have like a slow lifestyle like when I'm visiting an auntie in Jordan. It's like eights 4 p.m Let's get some tea. It's relaxed kind of slow live life right here. It's like 4 p.m We got to finish whatever we're doing for the day. Get rid of the next day Yeah, we went back to Italy again in June and the day my buddy John shout out Johnny drinks Got there next time you're in town you should definitely go on his podcast. He's got one right here as well, but He was he he sat we sat down in a piazza in Florence and it was like five o'clock And we're just sitting there for a minute he goes God everyone here is just so goddamn calm. This is the life and I'm like the tradeoff is You can't do some of the things you can't do in America But you're gonna get way higher quarters all going after it so enjoy it while you're here our gdp is funded by human health Our gdp's funded god you keep on giving me these dark truths today. Yeah, but that's true Our gdp is funded by human health. It's funded by the things that actually kill us quicker Yeah, we spend way more on health care than everyone else yet. We have a sicker population Drugs cost more here even though we're the ones developing them for the most part. Yeah, so that's unfortunate That's fucking crazy. Yeah, did you like how quickly with COVID did you start to feel like any opinion that did not adhere directly to the mainstream was very much silenced The question is were they silenced or were counter-psiops allowed to spread counter-psiops allowed to speak yeah Because like you got two streams you got like the lot the people are mainstream then yet the crazy theories There were like almost periferated on social media. I'm like, that's weird. Why are they blocking these theories? You mean the answers in the middle? Yeah, so I'm like, oh, this is kind of weird And I'm seeing in front lines like okay, we added just a gym. We all kept we kept the gym open during the whole pandemic Sue us get new some We we just put we both blinds up And we just kept rolling we all got COVID really really the whole gym we're all like now how bad like did you get banned? No, we got we all got it cold Right and headaches and we're back we're back to action you're back So I'm like oh this is before the vaccine comes out everything like oh interesting for us It's not a big of a deal and they were like oh it can affect everybody. It's my okay. It doesn't affect young healthy people And then when I'm there, I'm noticing it's diabetics obese people that get the worst Like that was like a functionally you're functionally immunocompromised so low degree if you have diabetes If you're insulin resistant if you don't have You can't metabolize carbohydrates fats in proteins properly. You're not going to have optimum immunity So those are the people that got they got messed up people that had transplants. You got really really bad with COVID Like right like Oregon transplants. Yeah, yeah They're not people that had kidney transplants that I had to put on the ventilator was crazy Um, and then at the really old people Yeah, like we knew that pretty early on We should have just doubled down on those populations rather than telling like every young guy that he had to Changes like yeah What did you think of like when they when the vaccine was coming on? They were really pushing it because it was a real like looking back on it. That's a real Line in the same moment for me because I was just kind of from the world that like Oh, yeah vaccines are like a great human invention never question a goddamn thing and then COVID's happening and I remember I had gotten The Vax I had never had COVID before that then I got COVID really bad And I was like, oh, this is bullshit And so you know unfortunately it just takes like realizing that you know nothing to like have something like that But like in the medical field when everyone's like yeah, this is going to fix it and then you see it's not Fixing people. Yeah, no, you react that I know because they they had said like you cannot Um, get the virus if you are vaccinated and I'm like that's not true. That's not true for you That right away. Yeah, because we know we've never successfully vaccinated against a coronavirus Like we've been trying to make like a common cold a lot of them are caused by Corona viruses We never successfully vaccinated against it Um, I don't think the strategy of using an mRNA platform was smart Like the adenovirus factor was the traditional way you make a vaccine to go virus Either make a weakened version of it or an activated version. That's typical vaccine Now they're making it with this new mRNA technology, which is like why would you deploy that during pandemic when people are already kind of not trusting Right they're anxious like hey wait wait for that technology to to get mainstream Because that technology might be useful on other platforms whether that's like anti cancer things Um, other gene therapies in the future But I think it kind of salted the platform everyone's mind They lied to us like whether or not you're pro-vaccine anti-vaccine. I don't care What matters is that you didn't tell the truth to people and then people don't trust you anymore They don't trust us doctors anymore. I don't blame them for that Um, because we screwed up a lot in occasion Uh, we could have just tell people hey, we don't know we're trying to figure this out which would have been better than lying 100% what's that like to deal with behind the scenes because like I obviously you have a good perspective on it you understand Why people don't trust the system now, but it's kind of like you were saying a minute ago We kind of have these extremes that happen where it's like you either tow the line or you pull a shit or it's like Everything that's ever happened is a lie. Just go live on your own reservation or whatever Yeah, I would love the answer to be somewhere where Yes, both of those sides can meet how do we make that happen after such an event like this? Yeah, I think the if if The good thing that would have came out of the maha movement is if they came out and said hey, we're sorry Like we screwed this up. We doctors screwed this up Let's apologize on behalf of the whole establishment We're gonna learn and get better for the next time this happens because it likely will happen if everyone's times as arenas healthy as they are The real immune consequences will probably be seen in 10-15 years Because the cells that your thymus makes today last you 10-15 years, right? They last 10 to 15 yeah, yeah, they mean cells that they make the lymph sites So do you have a you have a trail of lymphocytes that they can last even if it's kind of a long time It is yeah, they live for a while and they get old and then they don't work as well and your thymus makes new ones As you get old you don't have as much thymus left so you don't make as much lymphocytes So if theoretically if I'm correct and COVID did screw up people's thymuses and that's why you have these long COVID syndromes and all these different diseases Yeah, you can no one can explain If I'm correct then in 10-15 years people are gonna have a really bad immunity and you want to see a big spike in these chronic diseases So we need to figure out this immune conversation ASAP Because we need to be able to measure this this which you know MRIs now on you can look at people's thymuses or CT scans We need to get lab work that can look at people's immune status You can have functional measures like when it comes to getting sick. There's like three categories There's like really resilient people intermediate resiliency and then no resiliency like people that never get sick Right the virus hits them they get a cut in the coffer day and they're good people like it's sick really bad But then they bounce back to baseline pretty quickly. Yeah, you know those people like they get hit I'm kind of like yeah, I'm also right there. Yeah. Yeah I was there before experiencing some things but What's that about? Then shoot myself. Yeah, yeah, exactly I'll tell you some experience. I've done Then There's the people that get hit and they just don't recover. They're like down dirt for a while And that's why people are like no code was just a cold. The code was really bad It's like the truth is like it depends on where you were right before you got it It's not exactly it was variant. Yeah, you got and how many times you got it and then did you recover or not? So the proposition is that if you didn't have Phymex so you have thymac atrophy whenever you get infection So there's evolution that happens over time your time is gonna shrink But it shrinks down during infections. So every time you get sick you're hurting your thighs. Yes And they usually bounces back and sometimes bigger than it was before But we had the concept of convalescence like you go rest You take some time off But if you're sick, you're gonna be back working if you're sick on Friday or back on working on monday So you don't have time to recover or rest in tris and socks Your hormonal use is not great. You're not sleeping well So you're not having the time to recover. So you just keep getting sick and sick and sick and like it But I tell doctors like hey, is it normal that you guys all get seven colds every year now? Like a lot of doctor friends They get they get sick seven eight times a year. I'm like you guys also live a wild lifestyle Especially when you're younger too. It's what I'm saying You know, but like the older generations there were more resilient than we were The oligarchs didn't get six seven eight times. Look at these buses. Yeah, right So like we we did this one twenty an hour shifts. They're trying to face that out. So like trying to face that out Yeah, they used to be 36 hour shifts and back as when they were tough Yeah, yeah, like some some doctors will be there for 72 hours in the league That's kind of nuts. I do feel like there's got to be a better way because there's no way you're performing Yeah, at a good level once you get long in the tooth with that, you know Well, I will say though is if you can perform at that at that state you can do anything It's kind of a little bit of a hazing process. Yeah, imagine you're like the patient in the 28th hour and it's like yeah I was part of my fucking initiation No, it's happened like I'm one time I was coming on a shift to start my shift I'm relieving the guy that just came out of his 20 hours. They do wants to order five units of insulin He orders 50 units He had not slept. I'm like a poor guy poor patient No, but here's what's really fucked up like that's funny The pharmacist approve the order because he or she will sleep it. It's ended their shift. Yeah, winners gave the medication So I'm like I'm like how did you have three people this is a failure in the system? Exactly. AI should hopefully fix this. They should have caught that all you went there. Yeah, it's gonna fix that Oh, yeah, I'm not saying or it's gonna replace us, but we'll see Yeah, but it should like something in the system. She was like hey 15 units of insulin's a lot like stop like that should blink Yeah, like red be like you sure and then three people screwed up and I spent the whole shift just Resuscitating this patient giving them glucose so they don't they don't crash So I get like oh crap Yeah, that's wild Now you had said this earlier, but I wanted to find this before where we get really deep into the peptide stuff as an internal medicine guy Because I still I've had an internal medicine doctor before and I'm always like But you were explaining how there's the treatment side and then also like the intake side in the emergency room But for someone out there who just wants to know what do you do and what do you look at what is a basic Internal medicine doctors are supposed to be doing. Yeah, total medicine is the father specialty of many specialties cardiology Nephrology pulmonology, so in order to become a cardiologist you have to come and turn on medicine doctor first Okay, so that's the path you take. So like when you split up a medical school there's really a surgical side and there's the medical side. Right. In total medicine is that side. Right. That medicine is its own thing. You can take people in more of a clinic setting. In total medicine can be in a clinic setting or the hospital setting. You're taking care of complex diseases and a more general level without zooming in like a specialist. So you have to speak a lot of different languages as well rather than being in a proficient jeffrey tracer. Exactly. And then you have to know who to call and when to call them. So like you can like I manage congestive heart failure when I admit patient. So like you know you asked what the tip of the day job is. The tip of the day job for in total medicine doctor is you're in the hospital awards. You're doing some more around 12 hours. You're getting paid from the ER like hey I have a patient. They just came in. They did meth. They're in heart failure now. Can you take them in for the next few nights and take care of them? Get them back healthy and then discharge them back to the home of shelter or wherever it may be. Unfortunately that's how a lot of these happen. Someone comes in on dialysis. They are kidney dialysis catheter or or phiscial is not working anymore. We admit them. We call them aphrologists. We get them a new phiscial though. We're doing go like kind of managing anyone who needs to stay overnight in the hospital on the floor or the ICU. So that could be liver failure, heart failure, pneumonia. Those are kind of the most common things. Kidney disease, kidney injuries, whatever it may be. We're packaged them up and then sending them out. So the world insurance companies call us every day like hey get this patient out of here. Why is this patient still in the hospital? My job is pushing back on that. No, I'm not going to discharge the patient. You ever get to talk to these people in person? You're not going to do that. No, I'm not going to do it. One time they're like hey you have to call the insurance and get a pry off. I'm not going to do it. I'm like the patient can stay here as long as they want. Because you guys get triggered out. They want me to stay on the. Here's how the systems are really bad. They want me to doctor. It's been three hours on hold with the insurance company. It's held on like you have to get this patient paid. Like the patient you're just in a nursing facility. They don't have anyone at home to take care of them. They just broke their knee or something. And they're like you have to call and get that authorized insurance as they don't qualify. I'm like I'm not going to call. The patient can stay in the hospital. You guys figured it out. That's fucking. It's a scam system. It's such a bad use of your time. Exactly. So I'm like no, you guys figured it out and they figured it out. I'm like but you wanted me to spend three hours on the phone for something that should have been approved automatically. Yeah. It does seem like you said it's a precursor for a lot of guys to become other types of medicine but it seems like an amazing kind of job because you really do see everything at 30,000 feet in the air. Exactly. Do you want to stay as an internal medicine guy or do you want to eventually do another type of medicine that you're going to be qualified to do because you do this? Yeah so like my original plan was to do like cardiology or any chronology whatever one was the pandemic kind of changed my views on things because I wanted to say generals I can see all these things. And then on top of that like my private practice is a performance and longevity. So it's about how do you avoid the diseases that we treat on the internal medicine side. So I think that's where I want to put most of my attention. That's where most attention is now. But at the same time I got a lot of these longevity doctors they get lose touch with the common man. Like if you're treating Bezos and Oprah and all these people you don't really know what the experience is for. Good name and your clients. Yeah. No, that's not my clients. Definitely not my clients. You lose the ability to relate to the common dude on the street. That's right. You kind of pigeonhole. You don't understand what's going on. So you need to stay in both worlds. Are you doing the clinic most of the time and still going in the hospital? Yeah, so I thought my profile just in the hospital. So you got both. Yeah, so I do off. That's good because you got like you said you kind of keep both right there. So you opened up the clinic what three years ago. So my private practice opened up two years ago. We've really started growing last year. I've never advertised that I have a practice. You'll just find you on Twitter like hey. That's how they. Yeah. It's all like wow like social media word amount. That's pretty after you've been pod everyone wants to well now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like whoa. Because I don't want to advertise that I have a practice. I just it's on my website. Like hey, you want to come patient. This is a little box in the corner and how did he find you? Cause you were it for people who don't know. He was obviously a booed was on Huberman's podcast a few months ago and everything. But he was like this is the peptide guy. So how did you become that? Twitter. Twitter. Twitter meeting people man. It's kind of crazy. Andrew Huberman discovered on Twitter. Let's fucking yeah. No, he's been so good to me. Like shout out to that guy. Like when I had a smaller count, he'd be like, hey, everybody follow this guy. Like this guy's getting the next peptide dude, whatever. I'm not the biggest expert at peptides, even though he keeps saying that. There's a lot of smart boxes out there. Definitely know a thing of 10. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm deep in it. But yeah. Respect to the OGs that have come before us. Hell yeah. Yeah. And he's also like Huberman's obviously like a huge fitness guy and like health guys, well, who's I'm sure very, very interested in this. That's like a cool synthesis right there. But let's let's start at the top with this. So peptides are obviously something that exists in the body. I think it'd be great just to explain that and how that works over time for people. And then we'll get to these. Yeah. Yeah. So peptides are one of the languages of the body. Let's say the way the body works is there's codes and languages you have to translate to get the system that you see existing happening. So that DNA is a language RNAs a language proteins are language peptides are language. So one of the ways you can write the alphabet is amino acids. amino acids. There's 20 of them that our body uses. You find them in protein. They can put together in different strings and the different code signals, different things to happen in the body. Like build muscles. Yes. You just tore it down. Yes. Exactly. So insulin is technically a longer peptide. So yes. Interesting. Yes. So it could be a protein could be a peptide. It's kind of in between. But it's a technically peptide. It gets secreted from the pancreas. The pancreas puts together as amino acids. It goes to other tissues and tells them, hey, uptake sugar. Right. So it's a communication language between cells inside of themselves and then to other tissues. Okay. So when you're, when you are, that's how it happens. Indoginously inside the body. Now, when you take a peptide exoginously, you are now giving a new signal in time of the body to do something else. Now, can that have if you take it exoginously depending on how much you take, how you and we'll go through all the different things and stuff like that today. Is there a danger with your body then becoming reliant on that? So it stops actually performing some of these functions because you're giving it something from the outside, meaning that if you stopped it, your body wouldn't be able to do said function anymore. There is a concern about that. For example, with the GLP-1 peptides, those almost popular ones are Zemic, Mongero, Terjepetides. They kind of like open the door to people really talking about this, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. And we'll get into how that happened. But those peptides, they activate a GLP-1 receptor. Okay. Now, when you stop taking the peptide, you gain weight and the idea is it because you de-sensitize the receptor, decrease the receptors, and then you've come kind of change the dynamics of the system. So whenever you perturb a system, you influence a lot of things for sort of a second-order third-order. And that's when people like all these bros on Twitter, TikTok, selling peptides, they don't realize like when you're injecting peptides, they actually, it's natural. It's not natural. You're changing the dynamics of what's happening in the system. There's a lot of consequences that you're not keeping an eye on. And so as in trauma, it's not like, hey, guys, what's up? Let's let's look at this whole thing, what's going on, and make sure that the risks are better than the benefits are better than the risks. Also, that's the other thing with the black market here. They might be selling Mexican cock fighting fucking steroids or something. You don't even know what half these guys are fucking doing. That's a scary thing for you with everyone coming to you and being like, if I walk into the gym now, that's why I didn't happen today, like, you're like, hey, are you the peptide guy? And they're like 18-year-old kids, like, hey, I want to jump on red out. I'm like, bro, you're 18. What are you doing? I wasn't going to, there were a few guys in there, I wasn't going to say anything because they had you to decide for like fucking 40 minutes. I'm going to ask you about this, but I'm sure they'll watch the podcast. Yeah. But yeah, it's like, we'll get to that for sure. But it's also, maybe I'll misunderstand this, but when you're talking about peptides, that's a huge fucking label. And there's going to be different things, right? Yeah. There's almost nothing similar between BBC 157, the regenerative peptide and ozambic, the GLP1 weight loss peptide. Is, do you have like a parallel for, is it like pasta and ice cream, or is it like pasta and medicine or like the best way to make you simple people is like, it's like saying supplements. Like, you can have magnesium, or you can have zinc, or you can have omega-3. They all, they're all supplements. They're the same category of, of ingredients, but they're way different things. And they perform different functions and act differently on the butt. I guess the best way to explain it's like, they're concrete structures. The concrete structure could be a giant building, or it could be a small stone, right? They're made from the same thing. They're made of concrete. A concrete could be a bridge or concrete could be a little stone. So, but just because they're made of the same thing doesn't mean that they have the same utility. And in fact, the CEO or the janitor, you're working at the same company. Exactly. Different jobs. Exactly. So like people act like peptides as if it means something. When you say peptide, it can mean 20 million different things and different risks, different benefits, some are supplements, some are drugs, some are FDA approved, some are not. So there's a lot of discussions. We have to stop and stop saying peptides as a whole. I like to look at the subcategories of the peptides, like the GLP ones, the rushing peptides, the growth hormone peptides, and regenerative sides, so like a couple of categories we can go through. Okay. All right. So what's the history of this? Let's start there. So now, what did you call it? The external exogenous. Exogenous. Yes. Exogenous peptides. Exogenous peptides. Like, what's the full history when they first started, where they started. I think you mentioned obviously Russia, but like, let's just run through that. Yeah. So like, we have known there's peptides for almost two centuries now. There was a doctor Alexander Gulvich that isolated karnasine out of muscle meat. He did what out of what? So karnasine is a dali peptide, because he's saying muscle meat of animals, and he isolated that dali peptide, means two amino acids. Two centuries ago, we did this. How did he do that? They had microscopes and they could figure it out. So like, science has been progressing, right? So like, we want to say peptides are part of this, this, let's say, design of life. We, almost a hundred years ago, we find insulin. So they take insulin out of animals and then inject it into type one diabetic kids. And I've heard of the story. Like, the guy who did it, like he had a group of kids, they're all like on that store. By the time he injects the first one gets to the last one, the first one's like up to life again. - Whoa. - Yes. - It's one of the coolest 100 years ago. - Yeah, but 100 years ago I'm there. - I don't even know his name. We should, you know, shout out to OG. - Yeah, cool. - You should know this. - You imagine like having a discovery like, "Oh shit, I think I just landed on something." - Yes, yes. 'Cause like you saw, like these are all kids that are about to die. He gives them insulin and they're like, they're coming back to life. - Wow. And what, by the way, I don't think I've ever asked someone to mess or done their research on it. But what makes someone be born with diabetes? You hear about how diabetes develops, obviously, it's more self-explanatory, but is it just strictly, you know, a genetic deformity or something like that? - Yeah, so there's type 2 diabetes. That's what you hear about, like someone who's 300 pounds, they get diabetes in their 60s. There's type 1 diabetes, which happens to younger kids. They're not necessarily born if they have a genetic predisposition, but somewhere around 3, 4, 5, 10 years old, they get an autoimmune attack, or their immune system starts attacking their pancreas, their beta cells specifically, and they stop being able to produce insulin. - Got it, okay. So we just pulled this up, deep got it. In January 1922, Canadian scientists, Dr. Frederick Banting, Charles Best, and James Collop, visited a hospital, Toronto General Hospital, filled with children dying from diabetic keto- - Acidosis. - Acidosis, thank you. At the time, type 1 diabetes was essentially a death sentence, and the only treatment was a strict starvation diet that only prolonged life by weeks or months. The scientists walked through the ward where dozens of children were comatose and actively dying. Oh my God, so they were like literally on dusk. And injected them with a newly refined pancreatic extract named insulin. Before they had even finished injecting the last child in the room, the first children injected, began waking up from their comas. This became, wow. The peptide used, and they put in quotes now. - Yeah, insulin is a peptide hormone made of a chain of amino acids, another important piece of the history is CPEPTide, a byproduct created when the body makes its own insulin. Today, doctors use a CPEPTide test to see how much natural insulin a child's pancreas is still processing. - Yep, well. - So great, great story. But it kinda makes the theme of animal derived peptides. That you get an animal organ, you spin it down, and you get a peptide out of there that you can have a therapeutic effect from. - So they use it from animals? - They used to be like that. Then they got bacteria just to make insulin, and then purify it, and then take the raw material out. - So between two centuries ago, first separating it, a century ago, treating diabetics, and learning that whole thing, it's now evolved into, well, there's way more of them, and now we can do even more, so we can create more exact spots to. - Yes. Like, for example, my first exposure to this, and you asked me, well, what got me to medicine, is my grandmother, diabetic, very sick her whole life. It wasn't for the medical system. She probably would have died in her 50s, thank God. She had great medicine, access, and that dramatically improved her quality and extended her life. Growing up, I saw her take the first GLP1 medication. It's called Bayeta. It was like, yeah, 2006 or so. She dramatically changed her cognition, got better, she lost some weight. It wasn't used for weight loss at that point, knowing you about that feature, really, besides bodybuilders. - 2006, she did this. - Wow. - So Bayeta came out, was it 10, 6,000, 5,000? I think. - Yeah, Bayeta is in a, can you just go for a second? - It's the first GLP1 drug. - It's an injectable prescription medicine used along with diet and exercise to improve blood sugar, control, and adults with type 2 diabetes. - Yep. - Okay. - So my grandma had been on insulin for a decade plus. She, on this drug, her insulin requirements decreased. Her blood sugar was better controlled. All of her symptoms got better. Then she got access to the drug, and then she got dramatically worse. - She lost access to it. - Yeah, yeah. - She went overseas, couldn't fly back, got sick. Very expensive overseas. - Yeah. - You couldn't get it. - Wow. - Yep. - And you're a kid. - Yeah, so they came out. - Your 13 ones. - Yeah, exactly. - They came out, I remember her taking the injections. She's like, "Oh, this makes me better." So that guy that got me think about medicine, the GLP1 wave. Now, GLP1s are isolated out of a Heelamonster reptile venom. You heard about this? - A Heelamonster reptile venom. - Yep. It sounds like a comic book. - Yeah, exactly. So if you look at the Heelamonster, it'll come up. But the way to think about it is, we've been looking for medicines and therapeutics for thousands of years in plants. And now we're looking for therapeutics within animals. For example, aspirin comes from the willowark, right? - Yeah, I think of it. - Metformin and all these different drugs come from different plants. Even statins come from a fungus, right? So we're looking at these different compounds. They'll be isolate from nature, and they're making them into drugs. Now we're looking into like human cells and animal cells and what peptides already exist to make drugs out of those. And those are very potent molecules. With that, GLP1s, insulin, the new peptides, times peptides, whatever it may be. - No, the Heelamonster would barely eat, that was one of the describing features of what it does. - They have things barely ate. - Yep, it's crazy. - So it has not missing any meals. - Yeah, I know. Exactly, so that's why the Trump said that, like, hey, you're taking the fat shop, but it's not like it's organ, right? - Maybe inject it back in the end. - Yeah, fuck. - Yeah, so these guys, in their venom, they isolated the concept behind, well, we can't imagine the GLP1 drugs. Now the conspiracy theorists online, oh, you're injecting reptile venom. Like, no, you're not injecting reptile venom. - Oh, no, don't do that. - Yes, yes, yes. - This is a re-arranged Peter Teel's name. - Oh, yep, yeah, I saw that. - Not great. - I saw that, I saw you post about that, yeah. - Yeah. - So I always wonder how that happens though, where they're just looking at this animal, like this Heelamonster. - Yeah. - And they're just like-- - So they buy humans. - Yeah, they buy humans. - They buy humans, and humans would have like, the certain consequences of that. They get septic, they go and I see you and stuff. So they're like, hey, what's in the venom? So some scientists was like, yeah, I wonder what's in there. - And maybe it could help. - Yes. - Even though it's-- - Probably took some mushrooms or something. - Something's going on there. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. - So when, when were they tested this for GLP1s, is that like shortly before 2005? - Yeah, no, it was like two decades of research of development, they make the first drug biota. And then, Ozembic is like the third generation technically of this class of compounds. It's a little bit more potent, last a little bit longer, and then they got it FDA-approved for type 2 diabetes, which is the diabetes for a while. - Right, and that was a huge downstream effect though, because then everyone started using it for diet and the diabetes patients couldn't get it. - Yes. - Which that's an issue. - Yeah, exactly. So what ended up happening is how do we get this peptide wave? - Yeah. - The bodybuilders were talking about the GLP1s for a while before they were FDA-approved for obesity. So the Ozembic was an FDA-approved for diabetes. Diabetics started losing weight. So the company's like, "Hey, if diabetics are losing weight "from this, why don't we use this for non-diabetics?" Right? So then they develop it for non-diabetics. They get that FDA-approved in late 2021 or early 2022, what we can check, make sure that's the accurate. And then the same compound, semi-glutide, that's Ozembic. - Semi-glutide. - Semi-glutide. - Semi-glutide. It's labeled as WEGOV, extended. - All right, thank you. - Yeah, so semi-glutide is the parent compound. It can be Ozembic for diabetics. - Oh, just the name, got it. - Or WEGOV for obesity indications. It just gives them more patent protection. That's why they're being named, you know how that goes. - Yes, branding. - Yes, exactly. So that comes out, and then people start using it like crazy. In fact, it's very expensive for Americans to buy that drug. Insurance in the cover at first for obesity, even though it was FDA-approved for obesity. So it's like $1500 for a pen here. - Yeah. - People would just drive it under Mexico, take over a pen for 150 bucks, and drive right back up. - But you don't know what's in it. - No, no, it's a, it's the same pen from the same company in Overnordesk. - Oh God. - He's Americans have to pay more. - Yeah. - The idea that it's like this with a lot of different drugs, or things that might be lifesaving, or helping people. Like if that's not the sign of like a broken system, I don't know what is. - Man, that's like one tenth of price right there. - Exactly. - And then that opens up the rest. So people start taking this drug. I get it when it's a 300 pound patient, that's obese, then needs to lose the weight. The risks in benefit makes sense, right? 'Cause there's risk in benefits to every condition. That's why I encourage people to think about that. Like, yes, there's a benefit, but there's always a price to pay. And there's no biological free lunch. - Meaning like, no biological free lunch is a good point. We're gonna come back to that. - Yeah. - But like, random celebrity who already is like in good shape, taking it to lose another 25 pounds, and look like a ghost, probably not a good idea. - Yes, and the doctor that's empowering that needs to be reprimanded. Because like, when I tell people, like at least have someone looking at your face, when you get prescribed these medications, they're like, "Hey, you should probably stop." Like, you look like a skeleton. And we're essentially, like doctors are essentially empowering anemics, not anemics, anorexics. - A hundred percent. - To have their anorexia now. - Can we pull up ozempic face, Steve? Just so for people that aren't familiar with that, I mean, it's so obvious. - I know. - I'm like, "You're not really hiding it." - No. - Who do we got Amanda? - I was gonna say Jenna Ortega. - Jenna Ortega? - Okay. - But she doesn't even realize it. - Yeah, so there's, there's Sharon Osborne right there. - She looked fine. - Like, you know what I mean? - You know, she looks healthy and then the right side, I don't even know what that is anymore. No offense. And what was the other one? You were Jenna Ortega? - Yes. - Who's that? - She's, I think she's like a zero to order the meat and her. - Oh no. - Fincy. - Wait, she's beautiful. What the fuck? - Yeah. - Yeah, that's got to piss you off. - Yeah, that's kind of misuse of the medication. The problem is, like, celebrities go to concerts, doctors, and the concerts, doctors just gives them what they want. Like, in my practice, what I end up doing is dealing with messages that come up from other clinics. Like a patient will come on the wrong peptide protocol. overdosed a lot of side effects you can get you can miss because everyone just takes their their protocols I'm tragedy between like no one has a love for the game that my friend and started fucking injecting his stomach I'm like I don't know if you haven't finished a little bit of math basic math You shouldn't be reconstituting like these guys never did chemistry in there So like I'm gonna change my life. Yeah, like how long's it been five days? Yeah, exactly right so like We need to have better stewardship of this problem is now you don't need to talk to us go online and buy this stuff unfortunately Yeah, so that so we'll kind of pick that up. We got ozembic FDA approved. It's a medication The medical field's kind of anti to start by the way like people are really adopted for the first few years Well also, what does it even mean anymore to have the FDA approved stuff because I think that the the veil has been lifted on how Corrupt that whole process. It's right. Yep. It's a prep process Because it's a revolving door like if you work at the FDA during the administration It's a good chance you're working at five at Pfizer and Merkel or one of these other companies very soon Yeah, and then back in the FDA and it's a revolving door. That's a problem now the other problem is The FDA is an antiquated system for making drugs for disease states and now we're trying to create drugs that help you perform better recover better How do you use that same process that was developed to approve cancer drugs for a peptide injection for you to recover better after an injury Like the same framework doesn't apply it goes from life saving to luxury drugs exactly. Yeah, cuz like the Farms total companies. This is their big proposition now before they could only their tam their target audience was only sick people Right now the target audience is healthy people so that they dramatically increased their ability to market to people now and the whole conspiracy theory that peptide bros To say it's like big farmers anti peptide like no big farm I want to get as many of these peptides approved so they can market it and get a subscription model get people hooked on these peptides Well, my question also is why too because if you really want to stick on the tinful Hat for a minute and be like all right You know if you're trying to control population you make sure people aren't living too long So if there's any drugs that make you live a lot longer if there's some sort of catch 22 there where we don't know enough Yeah, cuz that's also the thing like this is so new I've read stuff again very amateur over here, but with with obviously I'm not a candidate for olympic But I saw so many people using and I'm like that's kind of interesting that this is spreading like wild Fire it is but there's there's been a lot of information I've read where they've said they don't have long-term enough studies to know how this affects the body 20 30 years down the line. Yeah, fair to say so I'll take my example my grandma took biota in 2006 That's 20 years ago. So we have 20 years of data on diabetics On diabetics. Yes, right, but on a regular person taking it we have five years of data from from when I was up I got a FDA approved cuz like if I I'm gonna use a stupid example here, but let's say Let's say there's well there isn't optimal level of like vitamin D in the body But if I decided to suddenly overdose on vitamin D for like five 10 years It's gonna do damage to my body fair say, right? Okay. Now somebody who's really deficient in vitamin D I say and maybe I take the same dose five 10 years later. I'm at the normal level sure supposed to get so it is It's kind of the same thing here, right? Yep, so there's a big connection there. I'll talk about that like The pharma companies have protocols on how to get you on there. They don't have protocols that how to get you off Right, so like when I I'll mention off for my patients I'll use a micro dose of these of these medications. What does that look like? What I say is like this should be like training wheels Like your life is stressful. You're a 45 year old mom. You're so busy Your 30 40 pounds overweight. You've been trying to die for 10 years. You failed at it Let's actually get serious now get you to lose this weight before you damage your coronary arteries your kidneys your liver etc Right, I would prefer if she could lose the weight without any drugs, right? I would prefer like if everyone never needed an injection ever Like I hope I never have to use a peptide ever use any of these drugs It'd be great if you just live naturally and be free that frustrate you though Like as a doctor who's also like really in shape and takes us health seriously. Yeah, of course You know like yeah, but at the same time like I have certain genetic predispositions that allow me to to be in the shape like We have my family as a my standard gene mutation my dad's jack my a stand gene mutation a my stand gene Myo stand, so you know those cows that are built like giant. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. They have two copies of that gene missing You you're telling my my my view. I don't know man. It's kind of going on. Yeah Exactly You love to say that is that like racist if I say I don't I don't know these days I don't know man. We're both gonna cancel our ass So if you look at the my stand cow the my stand cow. Wow. This is really you're not bullshit No, no, it's really in the myos statin MSTN gene stops the body from making normal myos statin Protein that usually limits muscle growth which leads to extreme muscle increase and strength You should've been using a heavy kettlebell this morning We're saving the energy for up here. It's okay. You see what I'm gonna say. I feel like you're like that. Yeah, yeah So historically We're used by white supremacid dammit D. Why are you doing this? Yeah, we got to believe that out. Sorry Listen, you can't I'm from Jersey just it is what it is. But anyway, you weren't supposed to have that gene Like my dad has it We actually know exactly who has in my family. They have way better Body types if they have that gene. So like I get it like some people are not given the same genetic lottery That other people have so I get it that you know, we should allow that and a second thing is I don't think It's all their choices that lead them there and not absolving people of their decisions that lead them to obesity The life that we live is not ideal for human Furshing and for certain amounts of people that leads them to become very obese In fact, the people that aren't obese modern day. They're the Outliers. Yeah, they're blue and so be city. There was one little good piece of news I hope it's not just because of like fucking olympic But last year obesity went down for the first time in what like 40 years or something like that. It's a JLP once Yeah, it's not like I got out of here. I was like it's because we changed the seed oils Not killing that people anymore. So they had to lose the weight before you know, that's pretty good. That's pretty good Yeah, so I would love it if everybody was you know outside in the sun working out at 6 30 a.m Whatever it may be that's not the reality for a lot of people right I get it They're their their mom was obese when they were just pregnant with them that makes them more likely to be obese They were raised on a really crappy diet. They're eating McDonald's five times a week whatever it may be Light environment's not great. That's gonna be the big uncovered two over the next five to ten years is that you can read them big Contributor to diabetes and obesity huge believer in that Yeah, yeah, and there's studies where like if you just have a red light on you decrease your blood sugar if you eat the same kind of food So there's a lot of things to go into that and everyone should ignore is like what do you mean light can influence biology Actually light is the biggest influence on hormonal outputs And why is that because the biological systems have to produce the right compound at the right amount at the right time If you get them at the wrong time you get chaos So like there's a certain rhythm that has to happen every day and then every night and most people's rhythms are shifted right dramatically Thanks to light because we were we were Zined evolution. What we want to call it based on the sun and the moon So when I had our mutual friend Luis and Nicole in here like two and a half years ago I was just starting a recovery I'd been really sick for like four years with the asynophilic asthma And it was now on immunotherapy and it takes a while for that to set in but like I was still pretty sickly and like if making huge lifestyle changes I went from For the first four years doing this podcast. I went to bed at four or five a.m every night Woke up at 10 and you know just edited in front of a screen all day in a blacked out room not good for you Lost all kinds of weight. I was down. I was 45 pounds lighter than I am now like very sickly burnt out skin burn out everything So I made a shift overnight in one respect when I started that treatment to totally change my day schedule Got back to going into the gym first thing in the morning going to bed at his specific time to help the circadian rhythm and all that But when Louisa was here, you know, she sees my place And she asked me she was like do you dream when you sleep? I said never And she said okay, well, I live that she's like I live in New York City you live right here as well It's always lit outside. Look at your place. There's windows everywhere. You have sky windows There's like getting in all the time you got French doors by your room right there where there's just windows coming through She goes do you sleep in an i-mask? I said no, I'm not gay and she and she's like all right fine Keep having bad sleep then you need to sleep with an i-mask and I'm like All right, and so I'm like fuck this is gonna work I got an i-mas dude. I will never not sleep with one again. We're completely changed my life I dream every single night and that whole circadian rhythm thing of like not going to bed at 4 a.m When the body's not wired to do that instead going to bed at, you know, 10 15 or something like that Could not believe in it more. Yep more important than any peptide you're gonna take like you're circadian biology is Underpinning alums every health if you put any disease say and you sit person can you with them next to it? You'll find tons of articles talking about heart disease and cancer risk and obesity and whatever it may be in It's a relationship to circadian rhythms and we're living in we're the first let's say we're the first three generations really then I've Living have lived with broken circadian clocks That's our grandparents us and our parents. So now we're having the the biological consequences of that And there's a normal real specialist in medicine that's gonna address that so a lot of doctors like oh, what are you talking about? You've been telling you to go outside. It's a real Red light changes your biology blue light changes every single wavelength can change the way your biological systems behave because we're trained to see certain wavelengths at certain times of the day and that activates certain monocascades. And the problem is, for example, people talk about melatonin, melatonin is supposed to rise three hours about before you go to sleep. Let's say the sun sets at 7 p.m. You have no more blue light in your vicinity before you have candles or a campfire, whatever it may be. There's no blue light in that's red, orange, yellow, very minimal amounts of blue. Naturally. Yeah. It wouldn't be high above ceiling. It'd be on the floor. You're right. Low thing. It was in the next three hours, your melatonin was slowly rise. And then you get sleep and you wake up refreshed. Nowadays, you're having blue light till the moment you close your eyes before you sleep for most people, the squirrel links, rolling, scrolling, turning off their phone. And then, and then starting the melatonin rise, which now delays all the other hormonal cascades that are going to happen the rest of the night. Yeah. So you wonder why guys don't produce enough testosterone, why guys aren't waking up with morning wood, key biomarker than ask everybody about. If you don't have this cascade happening in order, you're going to have problems. Yeah. Yeah. That's the stuff like I pay attention to now as well. And like I know, when I was work like ah, this week, we've been working way too much right up to the fucking grim because it's not even if I'm dreaming and stuff, and I still get some rest, it's not like your body's not fully circulated that way. So the actual window though, just for people who aren't familiar and need to find them, when we keep saying circadian rhythms, what are like the, I kind of hinted at it. But like, what are the hours here and what's the science there? Yeah. So the same rhythm in your eye, there's a receptor called melanopsyns, the bottom of your retina, that looks at 480 nanometer blue light. That's sky blue. Okay, so our bodies are trained to see sky blue from the top that hits the bottom of your retina and tells your body wake up, stop making melatonin and start all the hormonal cascades. Okay, that is supposed to hit you first thing in the morning. The problem is our LED lights are very rich in 430 nanometer lights. So if you pull up the spectrum of LEDs, we'll see that. But a little bit poorer in 480 nanometer lights, while the sunlight spectrum is very enriched in 480, especially in the morning, and that helps you start this whole circadian cascade. So probably LEDs is there too bright at night and suppress melatonin, but insufficiently bright and of the way, a right way of length during the day to stimulate optimal worse to both world. Yes, yes, well, so that's got it right here. This is the spectrum you want. Yeah, so like it right there. You see the top left. There's the LED spectrum. It boost at 430 nanometers. That's the big blue spike. And then 430 where sky blue is not not so much. Right. Now, if you look at the picture right below it, there's the spectrum of the sun, I think a standard LED. Yeah, sunlight. See sunlight. Yeah, it's smooth. It has everything in it. It has a ton of 480 nanometer blue light. And as a red and infrared and all the things you want as well. So LEDs are pouring red and rich in the wrong blue. Sunlight has tons of red tons of infrared, the right amount of blue and not too much of the bad blue. That's it. And then we've also like between indoor lifestyles and stuff like that and vitamin D deficiency and everything. And I got some wrong protocol calls on like sun exposure and stuff. We do evolutionize ourselves away from the sun as well and like made us fear it. I'm not saying like skin cancer is not a real thing and stuff like that. But we have as far as some of the signs I've heard recently, we have increased skin cancer because we've taken away people from the sun such that their body is not adjusted to it when when it's in it basically. Yeah, because the other way to think about it is like, yes, skin cancer is especially melanomas is a risk of UV damage. Not melanomas of basal and squamous cell carcinoma. Those are the less serious skin cancers. They're all serious. But melanoma is a really scary one, right? Melanoma doesn't seem to be really associated with UV exposure. In fact, it seems to be an immune problem. An immune problem. Yes, melanomas A number one respond very well to immunotherapy. They're one of the cancers that they respond well. Number two, in my mind, Dr. Patrick, a lot of these people cancer. No, no, Dr. Patrick Hunchong, the immune denial, the way to conceptualize cancer, it's an immune escape phenomenon. And that your immune stem right now is regulating, make sure any cell, a little subtle funky is kind of looking cancer-ish, kills that cell, knocks it out. As your immune system gets weaker, that regulatory aspect goes away. Cancer cells now can grow. Cancer started to trick the immune system until they were friendly, they don't attack us. And they kind of encapsulate themselves away from the immune system. So the immune system can't come in and kill the cancer. That's where the car to you there becomes and you're retraining these immune cells to come in there. Because it's very easy to kill cancer, by the way. Very easy. It's very easy to kill cancer. It's very hard. So easy to caveman could do it. So he's a caveman can do it. The problem is you kill the cancer, you kill the person too. Right. That's what came out there. Well, came out therapy is in us. I'm glad the email therapies are coming out now. Came out therapy, you're taking the person to the brink of death. Yeah, the cancer. And then bringing them back from the brink of death and hoping the cancer doesn't come back. Yeah, that's exactly what's happening. And sometimes it works. And a lot of times it doesn't. So these immune therapies are interesting because they when they work, like you'll see people's cancers melt off their skin. I'll talk. So wait, wait. I'm trying to picture this in my dumbass head right now. But like if someone, if suddenly this huge black spot melanoma forms right here. And I didn't go in the sun for like a month for a month. But over that month, it just forms like, where does that come from? There's a lot of theories on why it's happening. Some of them are a little schizo, but the reality is, yeah, seems like the immune system is not regulating the system. The system in the skin is not functioning properly. There's a just forms just build up a bad cells. Yep. In fact, there's a there's a streamer that has got a melanoma on the bottom of their foot, the place of the sun never sees. Right. And so this guy's a streamer, blue eye toxic indoors all day, up all night, damage in their immune system gets a melanoma. So that's a problem. Yeah, too. That's that's scared. And then I would think how I lived exactly exactly. I'm glad the damage was only what ninja twitches biggest gamer shares cancer diagnosis is March 24, 32 year old fortnight gamer, who has 90 million followers on twitch set a mold removed from his foot was found to be cancerous. He said the second dark spot on his foot was also being checked. And those shocked, he was grateful to have hope that the cancer was found early. It's urging others to get checkups. Wow. And there's no sign of exposure to weak damage happening on the bottom of your foot, just tanning all there or something, but maybe you're fucking holding feet up there. Yeah, I don't know. You have a foot only fans or something, but you know, you can't put that past the internet these days. That's right, not spam. So anyway, we're talking about though about the GLP ones in the Sempic. So Sempic forms you even said your grandmother had an early version of the GLP one with that. And then it becomes the craze in like 2022. And then you start seeing all these celebrities use stuff, which also I don't know how much you know about this. I know you deal with some high profile people. I'm kind of convinced on things I've heard in the grapevine that a lot of these experimental kind of things, whether it's GLP ones are entirely different things like for whatever reason, the celebrities get them first, they tell them about them a while before is that yep, yep. So some of my friends that are that trained me on peptides have been administering them to NBA players celebrities since 2017. That's when they come to the combat pharmacies. Yeah. So like, this has been there for a while. And I told you earlier today, like, I've known about peptides forever. I thought it was going to be a thing in the power of the body of the community. I never thought this was going to become mainstream. You didn't think this. No, like, I'm like, no one wants to inject themselves with things, right? If you misunderstand people's bills, I was wrong. Like, I was willing to do stuff to get an advantage, right? Like, Clificular never heard of them. I never thought we'd be with Clificular. And this is about that later. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you get them on here and see what the guys. Thanks. So, you know, things huh? I think I'm good. Okay. That's fair. I think I've seen enough on that. I don't need some 20 year old otis telling me to fucking cut everything off my body and inject it with new shit. But yeah, but so you didn't you really? Well, let's start here. When did you first actually start actively using them yourself? Yeah. So I started using peptides before I was a doctor before me. Yep. Yep. I had injuries. I was proud of it. Oh, you weren't OG. Mm-hmm. Wow. So I was using BPC 157. Now, are you like jockin' them or are you injectin' them back in the day? It was only injectables. Um, the pill stuff is new and that's, that's the new thing. Yeah. Deflikes it. I walked in here this morning, having crushed up and was snorting. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. International peptides work too. And I'm excited. Yeah. It's like, I'm doing peptides. It's like, it's really cocaine, bro. So that's what you should do. No, no, do not do that. Not medical advice, but there's some medical advice. Don't cross 100,000. Okay. Um, so the JLP one wave happens. I never, I mean, it was hard at first to convince people to inject themselves with something. Yeah. Right. But then they see their friend Stacy just lost 30 pounds. And then they're like, yo, I want whatever she won't has. I want that. Yeah. And then people started taking it. When's it happening? Is the compound pharmacies? There was shortage, right? You mentioned shortage of ozambico and wwegov. There was not enough for diabetics or people using it for obesity. Right. But then you're talking, you were using this way before that. So like, I did not do you want the BBC, BBC 15, TV 5, yeah, we're talking about, you know, 2015ish onwards is what we really start taking off. Okay. Um, people were using them in the Olympics illicitly in the late 90s, let's say. Yeah, I don't know how you I we started to talk about this in the gym this morning, but I'm not sure how you feel about this totally. But my whole thought was like the steroid craze that happened looking back on it. Now it's interesting when you're just looking at like performance enhancing drugs, there's an argument there. But I they ban all these drugs that have to do with recovery, even ones that have been tested for decades that are safe. And to me, I'm kind of like, man, if you're a pro athlete and that's your job and like, we get to consume it because you're great at this thing, I would think we'd let that happen. And now they're even banning some peptides. That seems kind of fucked. Yeah. And definitely and certainly they allow you an exemption to use like growth hormone after your injury. So certain players come back in the off season, they're looking a little juicy. That might be like, if you tear your Achilles, yeah, you have a fucking growth hormone. Yeah, it should be growth hormone stem cells peptides, the whole works and most of them are on. Yeah, like if you injected, if I gave you some growth hormone right now and you injected it right now and you saw that came in And let's they come in within the first few hours after the injection like if they came in tomorrow They would be like it's hard to say Really yeah, because growth hormone has a very short half-life On top of that like your IGF-1 levels would go up, but you could be like they've always been up my IGF-1 so IGF-1 is the Combat Take some IGF-1. No, man, yeah, yeah, wait this is the dealer. I think I swear when I was 18 bro And it was tainted. I'd stop getting erections. It was terrible. Oh my god. Yeah, like don't take random supplements from online Oh, he's like Ray Lewis came back. So now I gotta use it. Yeah, no, no, so IGF-1 is this we doing the actual like yeah Yeah, dude, it was but I think it was tainted with some stuff who knows wasn't that stuff. Yeah, you're like, why am I growing a third dick? Yeah I wish So Wow, yeah, no, I mean I use it for like a week and I'm like, oh, this is not good Like I'm like I get erections anyway, so I stopped that I probably had some kind of estrogenic compounds there Who knows? Yeah, IGF-1 is producing the liver in response to growth hormone in insulin So when you make growth hormone from your brain it goes down to your liver tells you're liver to make IGF-1 That's what actually makes the muscular gain effect and the fat loss effect from growth hormone and your labor Also does so much in the body we talk about that because we've do a sponsor the podcast sometimes But does hundreds and hundreds of functions at all time overlook the organ. Yep. Yep, for sure Yeah, the the Arab world says delivers like your soul like when you say like I love you like you say like I'm you're my liver Doesn't hit as hard as like love. Yeah, it sounds better in Arabic. I'll tell you that sounds kind of weird in English Yeah, what does it sound like in Arabic? It's like if it has a Ducabidi which means like it's like poetic Yeah, it does sound kind of hard. Yeah, you understand. Yeah, English. It's not good Yeah, so that you what's this call again? Is IGF-1 IGF-1 so that is processed through your liver. Yeah, this is me No, it's probably I I keep putting my phone on airplane mode and somehow it gets through I don't I Don't really understand. Yeah, I don't understand how that happens. So my bed, but yeah Yep, anyway, so you were saying this goes through the liver. Yeah, everything Yeah, so the liver so the liver growth hormone is produced by the brain goes to liver liver makes IGF-1 that makes you have all these effects There are peptides that tell your brain to start making more growth hormone and these are some of the FDA-approved peptides like testamorolin Surmoralin was FDA-approved no longer really is on that list, but These peptides are used like testamorolins approved for HIV patients with lipid distriffy some HIV patients They get like this crazy thick waste of fat and then their legs are very skinny So that's a lipid distriffy and he's fat in the wrong place essentially Taking this drug can lower the amount of fat and increase the muscle mass So people now use it off label. That's the key thing FDA approves it for one thing But people can prescribe it off label for recovery for sleep for better growth hormone production What are all the pitfalls there though? Like yeah, I mean you're making more growth so growth hormone the big debate is growth hormone pro life Extension or is it not like do you live longer as a growth hormone or not? There's a camp that says like growth hormone is the fountain of youth because you feel better on it your skin looks better Your hair is better everything's better on growth hormone. In fact, we go for something called somatopause Somatopause. Yeah, you've heard of menopause. Uh-huh. That happens in the 40s and 50s for ladies And some guys But joke, but somatopause happens In your mid 30s, let's say where your growth hormone production dramatically tanks off So you start hearingly I'm not recovering as well. I'm not sleeping as well. They're used to my skin isn't look as good I can I can eat whatever I want anymore That's somatopause. So the big debate is it is it should you replenish your growth hormone? Right, but through either taking a pep that makes you make more growth hormone or take growth hormone or Do you is biology smarter than you is decreasing growth hormone on purpose? You don't develop cancers, et cetera, et cetera And again, we need way more there's a study to be able to determine which way it's gonna break Exactly, so but the problem is like for you and I were in our early 30s we have to make decisions now Right, and like doing nothing's also a choice Right, so that's the big debate that people get into is like, so I do nothing try to get filmed into Incheck myself. Yeah, I'm more cautious with that stuff and and any of these things like I have a basic supplements Yeah, and all that and then I just work out every day I eat really clean foods and like I feel good and my recovery is good I haven't noticed anything really drop off or something from when I was 22 or 23 Especially when I went years there where I was sick and couldn't train and lost everything and then built it back Like I feel like there's almost like lost time there, but You know, I'm also not an idiot like as your body gets older There are gonna be things that like you wake up one day and you're like my used to be able to do that now As much you can't and you want to be able to avoid that, but also I wonder about The curve of just overall technology not just peptides to where There's things that are being properly developed now whether it is peptides or a combination of them with other things that You are going to be able to Turn back the clock in ten or fifteen years. I think you'll be able to on certain tissues turn back the clock Okay, certain tissues not the problem is that I'll just very complicated and smarter than we are and we think we make one trade But it ends up costing you somewhere else So I think we have to realize that there's there's a trade-off to all these different things and I think that's Some like a scientist will get so focused on one pathway and they think that this pathways and all be all no changes pathway, right? Not realizing it's causing downstream effects somewhere else right so then that's what you have to kind of zoom out And see like what's happening on the whole organism structure and the way you mentioned it like I keep mentioning in the 20s 30s and 40s You have a lot of these organ systems that kind of tank off right thymus pineal your growth hormone production all these things So the choices you make now in maintaining your robust health is gonna dramatically change the way you age right Is he gonna make you live to 90 or 100 maybe but more importantly, it's like how do you live well? Because like the modern life just breaks down your joints and breaks down your insulin resistance capacity like all these things break down and we can keep you alive from modern medicine Right, we can extend that life, but it's like what's quality and I tell people like your goals and never see an internal medicine doctor in the hospital Your goals to stay out of the hospital for as long as you possibly can and take care of your own health You're your own shepherd and then when you need it use it and use good medicine, right? Then you got a car accident got forbid whatever it may be medicine is great, but You should try to avoid the actions of the medical system as much as possible So going back to when you were first experiment with this one you're like 22 23 and do a body building Obviously, you were telling me today you're doing squats dead lives heavy bench and all that so you're asking a lot of your body But sadly you were doing it at an age where like your peptides are operating in it your actual internal peptides are operating at the highest level So what was the what's the benefit or was there not really a benefit in hindsight to adding to it? So BBC 157 is the first one that that I experimented with Had a torn labrum after my ACL have a lot of injuries over the years from the lifestyle we live, right? Abraham shoulder have shoulder to no. Yeah. Yep. Yep. I voted that surgery. Yeah, I've had a lot of started flaring up today fun and enough, but The day before I got my shoulder Steve look at that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. He blew me up. No Now all the flight in I was like oh my shoulders feels good. It's the it's the early 30s, but no It's toward doing bench press like a decade ago But it's still competed with torn labrum. It was very limited, but it's still competed. Do you compete? That's yeah To made like doing a heavy bench press, but so you had a you had a anterior anterior slap tear Lavorum. So I got really good at like avoiding the shoulder out of the bench movement, which is what we're supposed to do Yeah, yeah Yeah, you how it's you were injecting BP 157 Seven into the shoulder. That was the first time I ever took people to 5 seven for shoulder injury So you ask the question like don't you have a ton of this peptide? So BP 157 Let's break down what it is and then we won't why it considered using it and why people now consider using it As big as 1557 is a 15 amino acid peptide chain Supposedly found in gut juices as it supposedly and everyone online. Oh, it's natural. It's in gut juices No one's actually shown this to be naturally produced. So where did they get it? There's a scientist in Croatia that Yeah, yeah, it's outside there. It's very smart guy. He's like hey The gut tissue is the most vulnerable part of your body if you think about it It's the most exposed surface area It's two bigos through you and you eat something and you can die if you eat the wrong thing Right. You'll have a defense system against this Stressor so he theorizes that there must be some kind of defense mechanism as a researcher called hauncelia that looks and says that during stress What happens to animals their thymus shrinks Their adrenals get big so they make a lot of cortisol out of their adrenal glands that sit on top of their kidneys and their gut lining gets damaged Stress does that so that the researchers like hey, there must be something in gastric juices that can protect against This process BP157. So he finds bpc's a big bpc. So a body protection compound is the big compounds. He says it's 40,000 Now he's never 40,000 what for the 40,000 dollars. That's the weight of the compound. Okay He's never revealed the sequence of that big parent compound Unfortunately, so questions for him He's alive. Does he have like a patent on it or he has a patent on bpc and he doesn't have to reveal So he revealed what bpc 1.5.7 the 15 amino acid chain. He's revealed that those amino acids. We know those very well So he's not legally required at some point for a drug that So it's a bpc 1.5.7 has never been approved as a drug anywhere actually So bpc 1.5.7 the story goes And a lot of it is like is he telling the truth is he not? Yeah, bpc 1.5.7 comes out of the astrouses He starts and he starts tearing mice Their killies and tearing their ACLs and injecting them with bpc 1.5.7 is like all low and behold they recover from these injuries Right? A lot of mice data. Like if you got them, like they do some crazy stuff to these mice, poor things, but they give them BPC like they burn them us. Yeah, they burn the mice of skin and then give them BPC and skin will come back. It was bad. Yeah, but the BPC worked for animals. What does it do? Yes. BPC 157 seems to be part of the signaling cascade of bringing in blood flow and repair factors to an injured area. So let's say I have an issue in my elbow or something. This internally working is far more effective than sticking bio-freeze on the outside of my elbow. That is the proposition. Yes. So, okay. So like I have to work two outs. Like as a bodybuilder proud of your bro, I'm like BPC is amazing. I've had crazy injuries and had great results at BPC. Do I just have free killing ability and I would have healed anyways? Maybe, but BPC has been life changing for me on that perspective. As a clinician, then I'm doing evidence-based medicine and all these things, I'm like, we don't have good evidence that this works in humans. So I'm like, this is work because I'm not like I'm always in this state of disbelief and I think it's a healthy balance to have between the two. So we still don't have good evidence that it works well in humans. We don't have any good human data showing that BPC 157 improves an outcome for a injury. There's one small study on injecting into people's knees for osteoporosis like 20 people. So not sufficient enough. And it's like a questioner afterwards to say like, what was that thing that they were doing? It was revolutionary in like the late 2000s and early 2010s. I remember like famous athletes, whether it was Kobe Bryant or I think Chase Utley did it as well where a lot of guys were going over to Germany to get this therapy and their knees and stuff. What was that? That's PRP, platelet-rich plasma. And that's totally different. But kind of operates the same idea as like, how do you get healing factors and blood flow into an area? In fact, like when I had my ACL surgery, I did both at the same time, PRP peptides and stem cells. You were loaded up. How fast was your recovery from that? It's funny, three months in, I was walking into rehab and I was outperforming the people that were like six, seven months out of surgery. There's further setbacks after the fact that kind of suck because that's more of a me than it is the recovery and getting back on to certain workouts. That's kind of wild though that like Jim bros were using this back when you were as well like 2015 and we still can't get like good studies on how effective it is. There's no financial incentive to get a study. There's no financial incentive. Yeah, so the guy who owns the patent, the company, the doctor, the secret, if the BBC story is real, he's a legend. If he's telling the truth about BBC and all the stuff that he's discovered, he's found one of the most marvelous compounds that has ever existed. Imagine he's just sitting in some mansion in Croatia right now. Yeah, exactly. Man, fuck these people. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he's still active at the University of Zagreb in Croatia. The duke is six for the story. There's been journalists from the US now since the peptide crisis has gone up. They've gone over to Croatia and interviewed the guy. And he's like, hey, this is what happened. He even named it 157 because that's the anniversary of Croatia's independence. The guy is a communist country. But the problem is we don't have an incentive to study because in order to get a drug FDA approved, there's millions of dollars have to be going to a phase one, phase two, phase three trial. Show that it's safe. That's effective. And then it works at scale. If there's no financial incentive, no one's going to run that study. So the patent now tech, there's more than one pound on BPC, one of them's with TAVA, the company that makes Adderall, the generic Adderall, they're making so much money on generic Adderall. They don't need to spend money on figuring out BPC. Now somebody could even if it was a huge opportunity for them. They're making money on meth. So there's the problem. Let's say like I now I have a billion dollars. I'm going to go buy the PPC 157 and get this 100 million dollars or so to get this FDA approved. What's stopping Joey Deef from selling it online at his website? That's right. BPC 157. Joey Deef.com. Yeah, there you go. Right. Right. Right. Right. So any bro online is that I think it's 29 new peptide companies that come out every few days. Yep. That's not so if you're Miami every kid now has a peptide company. Of course. Yes. All the guys are selling your courses a few years ago. That's like the ground zero patient zero of medical fraud, any kind of fraud. All the crypto bros they're scamming you now are scamming on peptides. 100 percent. So if I found the pharmaceutical company, why would I even invest this one? Like every bro is injecting it already. So like the best shot is like the government. The government has to say like, hey, look, either BPC 157 is just an amazing drug and millions of people are missing out. And we have this aging population with damaged joints that could benefit from this compound. Or millions of kids are going to inject this anyways. And they're going to be harmed by it if it is harmful. And we need an answer ASAP because either one of these situations we don't want happening. Right. So like it's NIH should just spend some money and get the studies done. And we should know if BPC 157 works or not. And if it's safe to also spend people at home are going to be skeptical to like, all right, if you're spending and there's no perfect way to do it. You're spending money on studies. Who's spending the money? Who's running it? What are the incentives for whatever result is wanted and like how real will the day to be? And also like, if you're just looking at it now, do you need studies that are done over a 10, 15, 20 year period to really get an answer? Which means we're going to be sitting here in 20, 45. The reality is most drugs they get approved. They don't have that track record. Anyways, like the reality is we are the face for trial. So after drug gets approved, it goes through face for trial. They're mariting people as they get in the community using the drug, right? The problem is a lot of drugs get pulled during phase four. Like millions of people use it or hundreds of thousands of people are used and then it gets pulled out. Oh, it's not safe. So like, we don't have a good process to actually prove that something's safe. There's like, assuming, okay, most likely this is safe. But a lot of drugs get pulled and opioids are FDA approved. Bendos are FDA approved. Like, just because something's FDA approved doesn't mean it's safe. Oh, yeah. I think we've learned that. Unfortunately, so that's my criticism to the medical community. I have a lot of criticisms of peptide bros and the medical community. And there needs to be a synergy of how we go forward in between here. Yeah, you seem to have a really nuanced take on a lot of things, which I like. And it's important. Yeah, because I think the cool thing, if you can do this in any kind of topic, is can you hold two opposing views in mind and sit with them and let them kind of hash it out? It might be because, I don't know if you're knowing Myers-Breg, I'm an ENTP. That's the debater type. So I can have two ideas in my mind. In fact, I'll take the counter position that I don't really believe in the debate. If you can do that, then you actually know the topic well. Fuck yeah. So you should be able to go both sides of a debate and understand what other person's doing. And then you get actually more empathy for those sides. So I think we need more of that. But people are so locked in. The people that are like, the fractures amazing and medicine's amazing. And peptides are evil or so locked in on their camp. And now peptides are kind of coated in my high anti-vax. They're kind of coated in this weird thing. But they shouldn't be like, they're not associated with any kind of movement. It's their own thing, right? Yeah, it should be like the old Bruce Lee quote, "Take what's good, discard what's bad." There you go. And try to separate them out the best. Exactly. I think that's a really good way to look at it. Because it's like, you know, you also don't want to, you don't want to just jump on a craze because it seems really good right now and then have regrets later and be like, sorry, you want to be able to say, hey, here's where the red tape still is and what we got to be careful of and where it could be useful and make the decision at your own risk. Right. Would you help me? For example, like I prescribe them. I am still worried every day that a new story might come out. A new study shows. G.O.P.1s cause XYZ. And there's some already kind of hints that there's some problems happening. Right. Like what? Thyroid cancer risks. There's this blindness risk that's come up in certain patients. Oh, yeah. Like when we prescribed G.O.P.1s at the VA five years ago, we would have to get an eye exam on the patient to make sure they didn't have a certain disease before they give them the typical ones because we need to G.O.P.1s accelerated that disease. Right. Now, if you took it early enough, it would prevent that disease. Just that if you drop a blood sugar so quickly, it can cause worsening of that eye disease. Right. Yeah. So that was nuanced care you're actually, but now you can go online, whether by it from a research chemical company, or go over these telehealth pills, say your name. You could say, yeah, my BMI is 19. I'm underway. Sure. Well, prescribed G.O.P.1. No problem. K.S. is great. So you can just kind of buy your own, you're only your own doctor. Like the doctor stamps the prescription. But it's exactly. But it's exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So unfortunately that's where we're at. There's a wild, wild west here. Both research grade, compounded prescriptions. I think people should have relationships with their doctors. I think it's a good relationship to have the doctor that you trust that you like. That's, you know, with it. That can actually look over your supplements that I can look over your routine. Nowadays if you go to your doctor and you have something that's like, well, I don't know what to say. It's like, don't take this stuff. It's a natural. Right. It's like, yo, but come on, man. Yeah. Get with the program. Yeah, you got to get with the program. But all right, let's stay on this. I just got to go to the bathroom real quick. We'll be right back. All right, real quick. We're going to get back to the black market thing in a second. Yeah. But Amanda was just showing me when I stepped out for a second. You're developing an app like customizes all this stuff. Calibrate that day. It helps you calibrate your screening clock. So the problem is the screening rhythm advice is like very theoretical online. There's a bunch of sun bros that tell you like, yeah, sun bros, right? They're like, hey, sun all day. It was like, okay, but we live lives like you have to work and do this thing. So I'm like, this is how do you customize as best as you can to your lifestyle, when you should get a strategic exposure sun, which a block sunlight, black blue light, whatever it may be, which glasses to use using the black out blinds, night shades, whatever it may be to help you sleep better and build your own customized circadian protocol. And then how to implement that. Wow. Yeah. Okay, so this is because also like Amanda was just saying when she was still in here that a lot of this stuff, like you have to pay for right now to get the information. Like this could be really helpful. I'm just looking right now. Yeah, our hypothesis is that everything's going to be free when comes to apps because of tragedy and all these guys just make that free and then have companies that make products in the space sponsor the apps and force them to actually change the way healthcare is administered. Yes. Are you running into any issues with AI leading people down Pathways? Yeah. And then they come and ask you some questions and you're like, all right, thank you. Yeah, AI anxiety, AI protocols that suck because AI is not good. It's not Google. Like people still don't know how to use AI. AI a lot in my practice, both on Macnaps, but also with patients. And we're using it to have a frame of reference where you give it the studies we wanted to look at. Like, for example, look, hey, based on this study, if I could give you this patient's labs, what would you think? Not just give the labs and then let it think on its own, like give it context and then you can kind of take it down a pathway. Right. But when you just give it open context, it's pulling from everywhere. It doesn't know what it's doing. And it's a free for all. And it's also grabbing things that are could be fake studies, could be, they could be grabbing from websites that are making claims because they're selling a product and then taking that as fact, that stuff scares me for anything, let alone peptides, like, you know, you become your own doctor on AI that's still like learning. Exactly. When when I as a doctor don't, we'll say like honestly, we don't know everything about peptides. And yet, the 19 year old peptide bro selling you stuff, is the expert? Yeah. Have you seen, you know, obviously don't break patient privilege or anything like that. But have you seen some horror stories with people, like personally, where people have to go very, very wrong because they're self administering these things? So yeah, I've seen both patients and amongst the Twitter audience or self reported, like people will mega dose red exercise. That's the third generation after the semifinal type, ozambic, ozambic, okay, Mongero, red as the next one's going to come out. So it's more powerful than ozambic. Much more powerful. What? What makes it more powerful? Ozambic has one receptor that activates, GOP1. Terseptide, it's Mongero and Zepbound, has two receptors, GOP1 and GIP, GIP is another gastric peptide, gut peptide that helps signalable for the set's tidy. And retrutitide. Retrutitide? Retrutitide. Retrutitide. Retrutitide. They call it retta. Okay, the next one, man. You know, you all get to talk about it. Yeah, it goes hard. It's going to be G-O-P, G-I-P, and then go on receptor. Okay. So in English, what does that do? It makes you lose weight, it makes you probably increase resting metabolic rate, too. And probably preferentially load carbohydrates into muscle. That's how bodybuilders are using it. Sounds like a magic fucking pill. It's very powerful. But the problem is someone will get a vial, they don't know the dosage, they'll do it too high, they'll end up in the hospital with pancreatitis. Like I've admitted patients to my hospital with pancreatitis, that's a pancreatic inflammation that happens after taking some of these peptides. Some of us, they were taking on protocol, some people were taking it way higher than they should be taking. That's also what I'm thinking though was something like that before we even know anything about it. It's like this very new, nascent thing, you know, it goes back to that conversation we were having a little bit ago about the baseline. If you're a diabetic and you need the insulin, adding a certain amount is going to do it. If you don't need it and you add it, you hurt yourself. I don't, again, total amateur here, just from a common sense view, I don't see how that's going to be a priceless pay. You know what I mean? There's different lunch. There has to be something that's wrong there for people doing that. Yeah. For like, if you're obese, you're 300 pounds, you're going to develop heart disease, you're going to have three, four rex, risk higher of certain cancers. Trade-offs and there. There's a bunch of trade-offs and it makes sense for that patient for whatever risk, maybe there's very little risk from jumping once, maybe it is a godsend, right? It's as good as everyone thinks it's going to be. Then it would be worthwhile for those people to have taken the drug, even for 30 years, because we just shifted them from getting heart attack at 45. Right. The problem that people don't realize is, and they're like, "Oh, the ocean begs not natural. We have to be natural." You don't understand when I'm in the hospital, people are coming in, they're getting their legs chopped off because they won't take their insulin, because they're resistant to insulin. They're diabetics. They're losing their vision. All these people are very sick in the real world, looking at the online health space, right? If we can change the trajectory of these people's lives with this drug, it's great. Now where I'm not comfortable with it is like, you're just sort of fit, dude, and you're taking red dots to get lean for summer. That's right. I'm concerned about that, because there's no biological free-runch and why are we going to give you a drug and increase the risk of probabilities? And now you're just taking on your own without even consoling the doctor, looking at lab work, doing all these things. Before we give anyone any kind of effect that we want based on lab work, we want to see where they're at. We're going to talk to them about diet and exercise, actually make sure their health protocols make sense. Make sure they're not anorexic and they're just trying to mitigate their anorexia. Right. So, those are the problems. So, you're also dealing with all kinds of psychological stuff too. Oh, yeah. And that's got to be, you understand this more because you're not fucking 60. You and I grew up with the social media. We saw how, in real time, how it changed society and we're seeing massive changes to how people are constantly looking at their appearance and stuff like that. Now, and I empathize with young kids coming up who have lived in a world where they're forced to see all their imperfections instead of things that are good. But like, that's got to be difficult as a doctor where you're supposed to treat things medically or help. And in your case with your clinic, be able to help people optimize and stuff like that. And you're also dealing with people coming in to where you kind of have to play psychiatrists and figure out like, all right, it's just the internal clock, a little broken by the system here. That's pretty hard. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the interesting part is too, like some of these yellow people ones have psychiatric effects. For example, like a lot of drinkers when they get on the yellow people ones will drink a lot less or stop drinking. Really? Yep. Yeah. What's the science? So, it seems like it dampens some of the dopamine response that happens in the brain that comes from the, from the drinking. It decreases appetite in general. Like, even people, all of my patients, like, I'm dehydrated and I'm on the yellow people and I just take a electric packet and drink some water, right? Like, come on, simple. It'd be in a pussy. Sprinkle some salt and water and drink it, man. Come on. But they, they get dehydrated. Like, they don't even want to drink water. Like, they lose their appetite for a lot of things. So, there's that factor. It seems like it changes the dopamine transmission in the brain. How does it do that? So, when someone's on a yellow people one, this is the way a patient will describe it. Like, I would, they would see a burger and they'd be like, oh my god, this is amazing. In fact, there's some, some likelihood that obese people have a heightened response to these kind of things. Where, where they see a burger, they have more of a dopaminergic response. Like, I got to eat this burger than a lean fit person. So, like, a lot of lean fit people are like, oh, just, just, they down the burger, bro. It's like, it's not so simple. Like, their brains are miswired from the, from whatever they've been exposed to. And I'm not saying they have no choice in morale and in this discussion, there's choice still matters. But they're more likely to make the wrong decision based on their genetic predisposition and where they've been in life. Now, when they're on the yellow people one drug, they'll see the same burger that, I don't only need to care. So, you've taken away that dopaminergic itch to go get that food and they, they talk about food noise. Like, hey, I'm, I hear, I need to eat, I need to eat, I need to eat, I need to eat. That's what a lot of, like, the fatter guys will say. Yeah. Fatter guys and girls. But when they take on the drug, like, I don't even hear that word anymore. Like, I don't have that constant desire to be interesting. Yeah. So, the same thing it seems to apply to alcohol beverages. Now, because also, like, then you hear in a benefit like that and you may see like a lot of people who are alcoholics breached, so like, they're like, oh, shit. Can I help me? And then they do. And then what price do they pay for that? It's like, this, this is where, again, you've been saying it all day, but like the no free lunch thing is something I think about all the time with anything. And that's my biggest, my biggest fear with this stuff. But like you were also saying, we kind of got off it. People do it in different ways. They'll take stuff that's just like counter and pill form. Yeah. Which as far as in the little research I've done, this is like maybe 5, 10% in the potency of like injecting it into your system, you know, people injecting stuff that kind of scares the shit out of me. Yeah. No, it's, uh, and most like people that have cerebral technique and they get infections and then there's, there's, there's drug reactions like all of people take a pet like called motsie. It's a mitochondrial peptide. It's like motsie? Motsie. Dashie. Okay. Called motsie. Yeah. Sounds like a chick, right? But it seems like they call it exercise in a, in a vial like you inject it and you get some of the effects of exercise that exercising, uh, it's actually a drug being developed. Like there's, I think it was discovered at USC in California and then they're developing into a drug. Um, bros will take it, post workout to increase their, their fat burning or before workout to increase metabolic rate. Now this peptide specifically tends to cause anaphylaxis. Oh, that's not good. Yes. So I tell peptide bros like, do you have a, a happy pen around or are you just going to be running around and so like, there's been a number of guys that were like, oh, I'm in the ER because I got anaphylaxis to my peptide. I wonder why. Yeah, exactly. It's trying to make your body at rest pretend it's not exactly like, is there, even if it's doing some of the functions like fat burning when you're just sitting down and not working out, that would be happening if you were physically working out in the gym at the time. It's not the, like, it's not a bar for bar, the same thing, right? It's not the same. It's not the same. Now, it's, where's that interesting? You have a 65 year old that is a veteran that's missing both their legs. They can't exercise the same way we can. If we can give them a drug to see some of the benefits of exercising and then changes person's life, that's cognitive benefits, that's sexual benefits, whatever it may be, that's great. You're 18, bro. Why are you taking? Right. Not see. So that's my concern. The other thing is I think the framework that we like to operate out of is biological restoration. Biological restoration. Like the cool things biohacking, it's everybody wants to be a biohacker, right? I think how can we restore biology to where it's supposed to be? First of all, let's figure out what it looks like on an ideal state. And then how can we restore that? Because we're living this era where the first people to not be malnourished or underfed. We're great. Good for us. Everyone else for thousands of years had nutritional deficiencies. They never have enough food, they'd starve in the winter. They would lose a lot of their kids because of child birth problems because if the baby's head is too big for the birth canal, both mom and baby don't make it through. That was most people for thousands of years. We have technologies to help you now reach adulthood before childhood mortality was very high. Unfortunately our technologies have made us that were overfed, we're obese, we don't have enough of the right nutrients, we have too much of the wrong nutrients, so you're over overfed and malnourished, you're stressed out, you're not running your biology at optimal states. Back when we take advantage of this great abundance that we have, while still restoring biological systems to an ideal state, that's the goal. Yeah and it's strange because we've even flipped the paradigm to where, for example, we're the first, as far as I know, I believe we're the first society in human history, maybe you can check this, Steve, to where there's a larger obesity problem in the lower class and there is the upper class, whereas food always trickle down from the top to bottom in the past, but it's in the defense of like people of lesser means as well and getting obese, it's because we've created the most affordable foods as the most processed shit. Yes. I deep took me to a McDonald's the other night for the first time in fucking 20 years. I had not been inside one of those places. Don't ask me how that happened, it was a road trip, it is what it is. But like the next day when I was working out, I mean, my whole, it wasn't even in my head when I was doing it, but I was like halfway through my work, I'm like, God, I feel like shit today. And I was like, oh, that's right. We fucking ate it. McDonald's last night. I'm like, there's a lot of people who like survive off eating stuff like this, because even though they don't have a dollar menu anymore, it's still cheaper than like buying fucking fruits and vegetables. Yep. Yep. Forging good meats, fruits and vegetables, you know, having time to exercise. Yep. Like most people, they're starting their job, they can't exercise at 6.45 a.m. Like good for us, we exercise in this morning, but a lot of people don't have that luxury even to have the time. Like the fun part, I say like sunlight's the freest thing, but it's also the most expensive, because it's free to do, but it's so expensive, because you have to kind of rearrange your life around it. And our life is designed to keep us indoors away from the sun. Yes. So it's the freest day of everybody, but also the most expensive. So a lot of these companies now are trying to bring sunlight inside with certain light devices. It's a little red light therapy craze. All these things are trying to simulate a very free thing and commoditize it into an internal. Yeah. But you also, like you can't recreate that. Like I have the sky windows here. That's awesome, because I get more natural light in during the day. Because it's good for you. Yes. But like it's not, when I stand on my sky window in the morning, it's not the same, because there's the window. What is it refracting light? Yeah. And it's blocking certain wavelengths too. Like the problem is a lot of the red gets fat filtered out. The blue comes in. And the UVA comes in. So you see the truck driver that has the damage phase? No. So there's a truck driver, there's a famous truck driver case study where the guy is like his half his face, super agent half his face is not. And both sides of the sun debate use it for their own benefits. So if we, yeah, this is this dude, what the fuck yeah, we just go out and we lost his screen. I've never seen this before. This is kind of crazy. So you'll see what's on every, at the sun person, every person will use the same picture to argue their points, kind of funny how humans are. Wow. So this guy is a truck driver. So the left side of his face, which is on the right side of the screen, is dramatically over-aged compared to his right side of his face. Where the window is. Yes. And they're like, oh, it's because of the sun. But also, it's not just the sun. The sun comes to the window. It blocks the infrared that kind of protects your skin from damage from UV. And it allows through the blue light and the UVA that's more skin damaging. In fact, if an AI now swings your face, it can tell you which phone you tend to hold your, which side your phone you hold it in. So if AI screens your face, it can look at like, hey, you're more, you hold your phone your right hand because your right side is a little more aged because blue light is not good for your face. So when people are doing a red light therapy, they're just supplementing for the lack of sunlight. Have you just got it for free, especially the first hour and a half of the day. It's a free red light therapy. But this guy's face is over-nurseed on UV on that side. And under-nurse in infrared, he ends up having the photo-aged effect. That's one of a lot of images I've ever seen, I've never seen it before. Yeah. So sun makes sense. Be smart about it. And the other thing that I tell people is your sun dose depends on your genetics and where you're from. Like if you're from Ireland, and you're redhead, you don't need that much sun. You don't need that much sun, or you've just not been as exposed to an evolutionary over time, and your body just adjusted. Yep. So you need a little bit about it. You wouldn't get UV light. So UVB is what makes vitamin D. And it's only produced your round underneath the 33rd parallel. So let's say Las Vegas down. Interesting number. Yeah. Right. I think it's the number where I'm thinking about it. It's your conspiracy episodes, right? Right. Right. So in New York, New York, New York, New Jersey, all these places are from September to March. You can't really make vitamin D from the sun as effectively as you would in the summer. That's right. In California, you can do your round. So if you're in Ireland, your body's adapted to that. But if you're from the Sub-Saharan Africa, you need hours of sunlight a day probably. Because your body's adapted to that sun exposure. And that's also where obviously we're skin colors coming in. There you go. The more, the more like melanin is your natural sunscreen. So if you're a redhead, you don't have that much melanin, you don't have that much sunscreen. If you're darker, you have a little bit more this way. Thank you. What do you make of the recent research that some of it, to me, seems to be pretty compelling about maybe some of the opposite effects, if you will, of sunscreen and the bill that's been sold on that over the years? I think it nuance approaches best. Sunscreen is oversold, I think to people, becomes sunphobic, like sunscreen sunglasses both. We need a certain amount of UV light to hit our skin and our eyes. Don't overdo it. Don't overdo it. Dose it properly. Animals are a very good example. You take your dog outside. Your dog runs in the sun. It's in the sun for a little bit. As soon as he feels comfortable, he walks right back into the shade. So we can be smarter animals. We're the only animals in the sun that burns for fun. If you're in the sun, get out of the sun, go in the shade. If you're lighter skin, you're more likely to burn. You can just be strategic, cover your face up with some natural zinc oxide sunscreen, top of your hands. You don't ate photoage, but get sun everywhere else. You don't, you don't, what? Photoage. Photoage. So, as you get damaged from light, and the shorter the wavelength, the more damaging it is. Remember we're talking about that wavelength. So, like, wavelengths that are 600 plus in the red and infrared zone tend to be beneficial for skin. In fact, their size of using red light to protect the skin, rejuvenate the skin, and actually use it as a sunscreen. The red light is a sunscreen if you do it early enough in the day. Interesting. That's why naturally, the morning sunlight is very rich in red and has no UV. So, if you get morning sunlight, you're protected against the UV later on. Oh, that's so cool. And on top of that, you know, that golden hour, the last part of the day is no UV. It's the rich and infrared, so you can kind of repair some of the damage that's happened from the UV during the day. The virus is the same as the cure. There you go. That's nuts. So, getting sun appropriately, circadian appropriate to your skin color appropriate is what needs to be done. To restore circadian rhythms, to restore mitochondrial health, to make vitamin D, to submit the melanocortin system. Like, a lot of the peptides actually stimulate the receptors that sun is so assimilated. How did they do that? So, there's receptors in the brain called the melanocortins. Melano-cortins. Melano-cortins. Melano. Okay. They control your skin color, but they also determine appetite, feeding, and sexual function. Oh, wow. Okay. Because mammals need to be dosing those things and appropriate in response to the season. You have different fertility as a mammal, depending on the season that you exist in. For example, most humans are born in July and August. On average, there's a member of August, a pember, depending on what part of the world you're from. That's not by coincidence. Before birth control, there was still a time when people were more fertile and people were less fertile. In fact, my grandma has 11 kids. Her first one and last one are born on the same day. That's interesting. Well, either that's a big fluke, or she was more fertile during those times, because they weren't using protection. I always just thought I had to do with where in the menstrual cycle. It is. Like the 28-day period. Like, obviously, at ovulation, they're more likely to be able to produce. Yeah, but let's say the implantation is more likely in a better hormonal milieu and the sperm quality gets better. Like, a lot of things that are more optimized at certain times. So there's this thing called the skin-brain gonadal axis. Gonadal axis. It's essentially saying that there's a connection between your skin, getting UV light, your brain, stimulating melanocortin receptors, and turning on your gonads, your testicles, or your ovaries. To be able to shoot the biggest load. Exactly. Wow. Yeah, it's the guy, obviously. Yes. And for the girl, you get more fertile. So a lot of my patients, I'll send them on a vacation, like, hey, and for study problems, let's go on a vacation, get some sunlight, kind of lower the stress level. That's going to be therapeutic. Of course, you see a fertility specialist. Have you any one? Yeah. As big. No, okay. Now that makes some sense, too, because it's natural, like, you're getting more sunlight, you're out in nature. Yes. You court as all drops from that, because I fully believe that before, beyond just like sexual function and ability to repopulate and stuff, like stress kills, fucking everything that touches. Yep. And there's a book called, "Why Zebra's Don't Get Ulcers?" Why Zebra's Don't Get Ulcers. Yes. Because you see a zebra, and lying, chasing them. They run away. Zebra gets eaten. Lying takes the zebra. 10 minutes later, they're chilling. They're back to where they were. We're in cripple walking. It's great. We are acting like we're being chased by lions 24/7. Even more of us sleeping. We're running. And then you're taking redder. Redder jacks. Your heart rate makes you anxious, too. So like, everyone's growing up in a very wound up state. Yes. So this is the problem that happens. On top of that. We're manufacturing. Yes. Court as all for things that don't need it. Yes. But, I mean, social media does go with Court as all for things that are more anxious. You are the more likely you are to spread something. It's like fear porn is a thing. Of course. Of course. So it incentivizes fear porn. But you don't get the-- that you do not get the satisfactory result of having fucking just booked it away from a line and not getting eaten and come down from that as you do from going, fuck you, die, 'cause you disagree with me, sin. - Yes, exactly. And you wouldn't do that if you saw that person in person, you wouldn't do that. - Most people would not, that's right. - Some people are narcissistic, not a lot of people, but most people are pretty reasonable in person. - Yeah. - But here's the other thing, God, biology, whatever you believe, put the stress response, ACTH, the hormone from the brain tells you your adrenals to make cortisol. And MSH, the hormone that makes you darker, but also controls sexual function for totally all these things, on the same protein. They're pepped, they're both peptide cleave on the same protein in the brain. And I don't think it's a mistake, 'cause the way, the way it's supposed to work is that you're supposed to see light make cortisol wake up, go in the sun, you make MSH, you can make melanin to protect you from the effects of the sun, and then those both drop as sun sets, you go to sleep, you have sexual function, 'cause that's funny, that peptide kicks in like 10 hours later. - 10 hours later. - So the pharmaceutical companies have made this peptide injection, and we'll talk about that, but midday sunlight, is it, like if you think about it, days you've been on the beach, you spend all day on the beach in the sun, in the water, you'll have great sleep at night, very vivid dreams, and most people report a boost in sexual function. - I never thought about that. - Keep an eye on it, and you were probably back. - Just doing that, a couple weeks ago, I didn't even think about that. - So like most guys were like, oh yeah, my morning woods back, like that's just going to the beach. - Yeah, just kind of chilling out a little bit, but also the UV exposure. So what happens is there's an MC3R and MC4R receptors in the brain, these receptors control libido. In fact, there's a drug called PC141, a vilexy, it's an FDA-approved drug for ladies that have hyperactive sexual disorder, hyperactive sexual desire disorder, and impairment, buzzer woman. This drug, guys and girls take it. If you take it, you will have the craziest erections, the craziest libido. If it works. - What's the drug called? - PC141. - PC141. - Yeah. - People out there getting that PC141 right now. - But no, now here's the problem. If you under-dose it, nothing really happens. If you over-dose it, you're nauseous and you're throwing up. So it's a very small window. You get it right, you know how animals go into heat. - Into why? - Into heat. You'll have a, like I had a pet bird, and we didn't have the female and the male together. So the female was in heat, like she needed to copulate, and she started pulling out her feathers, 'cause she needed the male. - Right, she needed that day. - Yeah, exactly. She needed to get it down, but it wasn't happening. So like, she, but you can essentially turn on heat with a peptide or it's on light exposure, but these-- - You're tempting some people right now. - Oh yeah. I mean, it's an FDA-approved drug for this indication. - What's it called again? - PC141 or-- - PC141. - Premalanetide. - Is it some hard names? - I know. - I know. - Pun intended. - But, no, I mean, yeah, it works very well, but a problem is that you don't know when it's gonna kick in. Either you can kick in right away. - Don't try it at home, folks. - Yeah, the prescription, do it the right way, and look at the guidance of a doctor. But when it works, it works. The problem is, one time, I gotta prescribe, just to test this out. I like to test things out before I give it to patients. There's snow, what's going on with it with it. You kick the drug, it didn't really kick in. I'm like, oh, I must be, I'm young and healthy. I guess I just didn't do anything for me. I'm a match of man, you know what I'm saying? 10 hours later, I'm gonna have a six hour flight, and it kicks in. - Oh, no. - And it kicks in. - Yeah, but I'll check next year. - No, it's not a-- - That'd be a problem of it. - It was a problem. Thank God, it wasn't. It's the whole flight. I'm like, you're hard to hold flight. And I'm like, oh shit, it's bad. This is bad. But, it's an effective compound. Let's step back. Why are people having underestimulated monocorn systems because they're indoors all day, they're not getting the UV exposure. So that's why that skin brain gonadal access. It shows you that animals and humans, when they get more sun exposure, they get more sexual passions. That's what the study says. - It makes total sun. - But the study says, do you believe in that? - So it's gonadal, not galangel. - Gonadal? - Yeah, that'll help you. Geo and D-A-L. - I'll grab that. Do you believe in like a creator, like God? - Yes, yeah, I'm Muslim, so. - Is that something you ever went back and forth on at one point in question, or have you always been consistent on that? - To go back to your first question is like, why I got to medicine? The moment I saw about all these text book, I'm like, this has to be designed. - Right. - And so I'm like, when I'm studying this stuff, it's like I'm having conversation with God. I'm looking into like the industry at this structure. Like the fact that the melanocorn system, the stress system are on the same peptide, like, I don't know, that was in chance. - I totally agree that like the more you look at the layers of life, whether you're looking at it medically, or you're looking at like how nature works and everything, something like evolution has certainly happened, and I think we still have a lot more to do with the science on that. But the flickering of the flame that gets all the patterns started and operating at a high level, something powerful had to build up. - 100% had to. It's so cool. And every time you've said something today where it's like in this thing, which also happens to correlate with this thing, and it's in the same spot of real estate in your body, you're just like, God damn. - Yep. And the problem is, as you go deeper down, complexity increases. So like that shows you there's more design. Like theoretically from Darwin's first principles, it should get simpler as you go down, and complexity comes out from life as life goes further out, but cells are more complex than us in many ways. - That's right. - So like as you go deeper down, it's more complex, atoms are very complex. So I think that's sign of design. - For sure. Now we have this pulled up deep. - Yeah, so it's not like that picture right there. - We'll go now to access. - With the second one from the left, yeah, that one. - All right, what am I looking at here? - So this is the summary of the study. Skin brain going down to access. If you go down to high resolution, right below the picture, boom. Here we go. - Okay, so unexposed on the left, UVB/solar exposed on the right. You wanna explain the rest of the-- - Yeah, so what ends up happening is they took animals and they took humans, and they showed that the unexposed skin in both men and women-- I'm sorry, they exposed skin in both men and women. You had otoracuse, you make more fermones, testosterone levels go up in males, romantic passions go up, aggression goes up, and then in females, they're more attractive. So the female mice that were supposed to sound like were more attracted to male mice as a result of being exposed to sunlight. Part of that's probably from fermones, but there's also probably other factors that go in there. - Wait, I'm sorry, the females were more attracted to the males. - No, they were more attractive. - More attractive to the males. - Yeah, okay, got it. - So as if the male mice could sniff out, which female had gotten unexposed or not. - Right. - There were more, so the females were more receptive, sexual interactions. Their estrus incidence increased, they're more fertile. - Right. - And they had more follicles. And then they showed you how that works. It's going from the brain, that makes general age, to the pituitary age, that makes Elation FSH, so they're going to add to the-- - Wait, like more hair follicles? - No, follicles in the ovaries. To make embryos in it. - Got it, okay. - And females, the romantic passions went up. - Yeah. - And we have FDA approved drug for the same thing, but it's like they just drugged sunlight, essentially put into a vial. - That's the other thing, man. It's like, the more we come up with stuff like this, whether it's peptides or any of these other things, we're getting, you know, I'm all for innovation, I'm all for also learning, like, let's make sure we're doing it right, and you know, we're not robbing Peter Paypal, that kind of thing. But I do think a lot, in many contexts, about some of the technological power we now have in mankind and where we can play God with things. And I know you have to think about this a lot, but I worry about that sometimes, because it's a little bit of garlic eating shit, you know, you eat that fruit suddenly, you know some shit that maybe life was better that you didn't know before. - They do this list. - Yeah. And the problem is like, even in doctors, like cardiac surgeons, neurosurgeons, they tend to have God complexes. 'Cause they're like, I have your heart in my hands. I control your life exactly. So then they have those complexes that develop as a result, of course, God humbles everybody, eventually. But no, the thing is like back to the peptides conversation. Like this peptide is a specific peptide, the act of a specific receptor, so it has clear benefits, clear risks. The peptides that are more interesting, I would say, are the Russian ones. 'Cause they help restore natural function, is what they're purported to do, and they actually have good human data on them. - So there's a lot of you on these? - Vladimir Cavinson. - No, no, no, no, no, Vladimir Putin. - Oh yeah, so Vladimir Cavinson, put up a picture of Vladimir Cavinson, Vladimir Putin. He got an award. (laughing) - No, really, no, no, you're after this award. This guy was asked. - Interesting, we got it after this one. This one brings in-- - You'll give me the wrong peptide. - Yeah, you're done. - With a kid. - What's his name, Vladimir? - Cavinson, K-H-A-V-A-V-I-N-S-O-N, what's Putin? - He's got it. - So we got a pick of this? - Oh yeah. - And he's dead now. - He died a year after this picture. Which is like, they're like, oh, natural cousins. - He's putting an award on him. - Yep. - It's like, yeah, I'm gonna pin this bull in your fucking heart, too. - So Vladimir Putin was getting, was known for years to get drugs from this doctor. (laughing) - This doctor created like 20, 30 different supplements and drugs. - I wonder, remember when they were, and we speculated about, too, 'cause we were seeing the videos. People were speculating out there at the beginning of the war that Putin was deathly sick, because there would be videos of him shaking and holding onto the table, and sure. - Right. - I wonder if he got like a bad dose or something. - Yeah, so like, there's a whole conspiracy, like why did Dr. Cavinson die? Like, he was very healthy. His parents both lived to 90s. He's on the peptides, I think he's mid 70s, but looks pretty good. Function's pretty good. [BLANK_AUDIO] prolific researcher. Now the weird part is, look at that guy's irresist. Hit that third picture. He's got them linseed, clancy irons. Yeah. Yeah. So big motherfuckers, saucers. Well, working with people is not not probably easy. But no, it's the crazy part is, it's effective, like the Ukraine war affected my practice dramatically because, so Dr. Kavinsen invents that thymaline drug we were talking about earlier. He's the one that made that up in the 70s. They used it first astronauts and pilots and submarine operators, submariners in the Soviet Union. What happened? These guys, when they'd be in space or there'd be under water for six months, they age faster. And you call it premature aging syndrome. Because when you cut off them, the circadian rhythm and you're getting radiation exposure to your chest, you're damaging your thymus, they had age faster. He created two drugs epithelamine, which is, it makes epithelan, it's a penial gland extract that he harvested down and injected into people. Okay. And thymaline, which was a thymus extract that he grinded down and injected into patients. And he could supposedly, according to our Soviet lore, restore the health of these young men. So this becomes like a national security thing for the Soviet Union. And they use this drugs, they're word, they're, he makes another drug for the eyes because they're word that the US government has lasers to shoot into. For kids, laser beams. Yep. Yep. That's funny. I always comes up. Now thymaline was being produced for very cheap, it's like 15 bucks a bottle. It's a very effective peptide. It's approved in Russia as a drug. So it's not like some kind of research chemical. It's actually a proof drug. Because of the war, the factory that makes that shut down. So no, I can't even access this medication for myself or whoever I want to give it to. Yeah. Yeah. So unfortunately, war's effect health too. Yeah. So we're like missing research there now or research opportunities there now too. Yeah. Because the fall of Soviet Union really slowed down Russian innovation. Like the Russians came up with a peptide and non-peptides. A lot of coal compounds, bromontane, benetill, like all these cool, and there were the ideas like how can you increase capacity in human being? Right. It's work harder to be in space, whatever it may be. And fortunately, we lost a lot of that when Soviet Union fell. Not the Soviet Union was great. So it was horrible. But doctor happens to complain like, oh, once the pharmaceutical companies came in, they didn't take my research seriously. They didn't believe in this biological restoration concept. Yeah. So but now like for a lot of my patients, there's a peptide that he developed called epitalon. It's four amino acids. Unlike the GLP ones or PT-141 or the growth hormone peptides. It's like really jamming on a receptor and turning something on. It kind of just works in the background. I remember in the fine lens peptide, it activates genes and turns on DNA. This one epitalon is from the pineal gland. So we naturally make it and that's been pretty much confirmed. And when you take it, it increases your nighttime melatonin production. So it helps with sleep. Yes. And it increases your daytime cortisol. Increases your daytime cortisol. Yes. At a certain part of the day, like the beginning of the day, which is what you want. You don't want it at night. Yes. So epitalon helps restore the circadian architecture that exists. So when it increases your your morning cortisol, does that also have an extension effect of therefore decreasing your later in the day cortisol? Because it's like overloading it at the beginning. Yeah. So like emerging data suggests that if you have the higher peak of cortisol, you get a better kind of trail off effect. Interesting. The problem is most of us wake up. We don't get bright light. We're kind of indoors. We have foggy brains. Our cortisol is not high enough. It takes us two, three hours. We have to drink three expressed cells just to get that cortisol spiked up. Then you stay high cortisol all day, two late into the night and then you can get good sleep and then cycle just perpetuates itself. What we should have is really high cortisol. You should jump out of bed and it should be pretty charged up. And if you get sun exposure, you get colder in the morning, you work out all these different things that can help circuit set the circadian clock. You'll notice you'll wake up before your long clock and you're pretty sharp. A lot of times that'll happen. I'll wake up 10, 15 minutes before. I like I drink a lot of water in the morning. That's the thing. Like once I do that within about six, seven minutes of waking up. That's when I'm really there. But I haven't. I've been working out at the same time now for a long time since basically since I've made that lifestyle shift three years ago. But I have not used caffeine of any sort. I've not had anything but water before I work out over the last three years. And I've things have been great. And I think there's something to be said for like resetting the circadian rhythm that probably like in a lifestyle where I still have way too much cortisol and other parts of the day that we got to figure that out. Like at least like in the morning, there's some sort of better system than I would have had four years ago waking up at fucking 10 a.m. after going on night. Like you just waking up like shit every single day. Yeah. And then I think this strategy is we could employ for you even specifically like it's certain lightweight links you can get before your workout to boost that cortisol spike and boost the performance in the workout. Like we got the sunwalk after the workout today. In the winter time, you probably get sun before actually the summer time you get sun before and the winter sun probably comes up closer to seven. So it's hard to do that. But you can you can like in my hotel room today, I had a device that I use. It's written rich for 180 nanometer lights that oh, you have one. I travel with one. Oh, let's go. And then night it turns into orange yellowish mode. So then I it's sort of using the hotel lights. I used that light. Now that's the shit that's cool to me. That's the type optimization shit that's really cool because you're restoring biology. Yes. You're not trying to like be some play god and be smarter than that's your analogy. You're like giving the biological inputs that your body needs simple habits. It's not overdoing it. It's in the background. Yes. Just make it it. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Like some of these peptides like the ones I like, I think eventually people are going to sick of injecting themselves. They're going to want to go back to like take things naturally. And a lot of these peptides already do if I arrive from organs. So like, you know, I used to scoff at this idea. There's an idea of organic therapy. Like if you have a liver problem, take a liver, right? And I was like, oh, these these naturopaths are so weird. But it turns out like Dr. Gavin's work shows that in the liver, it's not that the liver itself is good for your liver. There's liver peptides, ovegin, liver in the liver that then can go back and signal certain positive aspects. You can replenish. You can replenish these peptides. Yeah. So I have a talent for sleep. There's the thymus peptides with the thymus. There's peptides for the eye. The most impressive one was retinolamine, which is an extract from cow eyes. They ground on retinas from cows, injected into humans. And they've actually shown you can reverse like retinitis pigmentosa, which is a genetic predisposition to blindness. Whoa. Yeah. So like nine severe cases. So like, but Dr. Gavin. But in some cases, they can show that they're making progress. So this is an approved drug in Russia. And we don't use it here at all in the United States besides some biohackers. What we should be doing. So we should have an agency in our government looks like, Hey, what are everyone else doing in the world? Let's take their stuff and then test it and see if it works. Sure. And then if it works, great. If it doesn't, that would make too much sense though. Because we spend millions of dollars on research on stuff that doesn't matter. Like grasshopper cricket noises at night. Like there's probably a research grant for that. It's like, dude, let's get people healthier. Gain of function research. We should not have been spending my own gain of function research. That is driving. Well, why is COVID a little bit similar to HIV? I don't know. Maybe the same guy was working on both. Yeah. It's like, why does code infect the thymus? What other virus infects the thymus? Oh, look at that. They all tied together. I mean, my coming to God moment was when I opened up a study about thymus as this is a study of in the late 80s. And I'm going to the study. I like to look at the references like who's been referenced in the first reference in the study was one Anthony Fauci. You just like the last jazz commentary in the last scene of kind of a fucking usual suspects. Like, oh my God, there he is. Yeah. I was like, whoa, is it literally a paper from like 86? And he's the first citation on that study. I was like, whoa, this is, yeah, that's kind of dark. Dr. Calvin stands up in a ditch. Dead, no one's really talking about thymus. I'm like, oh, is that by design? By design. Because like there are strategies that you use to theoretically replenish the thymus. Like, first of all, you don't want to aid you faster, which I think we've done in the last five years. Mister peptides, different growth hormone strategies that you use on thymus. But we should be investing heavily in this because I'm concerned that this generation that grew up with the weaker immune system is going to be very non-resilient, not resilient in the next five, 10 years. Oh, I agree. And it's just, it's just evolution. It's just the most, it makes all the sense in the world because even like you were saying earlier relating it to the medical field, the things that not saying it was ever smart to do it. But when they could do longer shifts, you know, fucking 30 years ago. And for some reason, they were okay at the end. And now slightly shorter shifts, like guys are not okay at the end. I think that's biology rather than like the human fucking effort, if you will. Yeah. I mean, like a lot of people that are trying to get through it, like we'll be taking testosterone, I don't know, in the afternoon, whatever it is to like be able to handle higher workloads. So it's like, is that the answers we have more? Yeah, you shouldn't have to take substances to do something that was previously completely possible. Exactly. Like you can optimize it and change it over time because you you have the luxury of doing that. But when it's out in necessity, because it's like, wow, humans can't do what they used to do, that should be a fear. Exactly. What do you think the biggest lies you've seen about peptides going around are? So let's take it from both perspectives from the anti-peptide and propeptide crowd. The propeptide crowd says these are natural. And therefore there's no side effects like your body just makes them. So it's natural. Your body makes insulin. If I give you the wrong dose of insulin, you'll be dead. That's a hundred percent kill shot. So no, they're just because their natural doesn't mean testosterone is natural. You make testosterone. It's done in your blood right now. If I inject you a lot of this last run, you're going to change because these natural doesn't mean it's safe and effective. And especially not safe, necessarily could be effective. But the safeness depends on when, where, and why. Right. Otherwise, there's like no human data. So what's happened is, for example, like PPC-157. There's no good human studies randomized control trials. Well, in the beta spot we're in, since 2017, there's been millions of doses of PPC-157 prescribed by doctors to patients through compound pharmacies. Compound pharmacies, it's not your Walgreens and your right-aid and these guys, these are pharmacies, they're specialty pharmacies that make certain compounds for the demand of the patient. Right. So millions of doses have been administered and we haven't seen this crazy signal of harm. Does it work? We don't know. But we should take more time to see that. We could take more time. Yeah, the same with any drug, though. That's why I'm like, yeah. And if we're going to use any compound, we should be very confident that the benefits really make sense. So people are like, I'm just trying out this peptide this month, like, what are you doing? Take it easy, let's be smart about this. We should be trying to restore biology where we can. And especially because now, younger guys, they want to jump on test, GH, peptide, CTA, jacks. People really young are talking about this whole like, I don't even know how it works, but like replacing the testosterone, you got to go get injections and stuff, right? Yeah, creams, injections, the pills, there's people who are like 20 years old talking about this. What the fuck are you doing? Yeah, I did apologize to my friend in Santa Cruz. I'm like, bro, you should be, you're 20 years old. You should have peak levels right now. Why don't you have peak levels? Is the bigger question? Yeah, instead of trying to replace them. I think people don't have sufficient puberty. That's my- You don't have sufficient what? Puberty. Their peak of their puberty wasn't sufficient enough to drive masculinization. Right. They're in front of blue lights all day. They're gooning 'til 3 a.m., they're not eating good foods. They're not competing. Young guys were playing football and wrestling and they're competing with other men. So if you look at like 1980s football team. You have two hundred percent. From high school, if I'm 98, if I'm 2025, I was like, whoa, these guys- That's a man. Exactly. Just like, what the fuck happened here? Exactly. So something's wrong. Something's wrong. And the problem is, no one's sounding the alarm bells. Like, end of the call, I'm just like, no, levels aren't lower. Bro, just look at the, look at like- Yeah. My gripe with doctors is like, I'm not going to suspend what my eyes see. Just because there isn't a study yet that proves that. Like, I can examine the world and look what's going on. Yeah, it's the behavioral finance. Exactly. Same thing. I'm not saying it's the truth, 100%. We have to test my hypothesis. For sure. But I can make hypotheses. Be like, that's weird. Let's look at that. Yes. And we're going to find this out 20 years later. It was like, oh, it was the microplastics. Or it was the blue light, or was the junk food? Or whatever it was? Guys aren't developing right. 100%. And facility rates are lower. Like, all these things are happening. It could be starting from before conception, even. Like, one of the mom and dad aren't healthy enough. It could happen during. There's been studies where microplastics are exposure to a pregnant lady causes the anal squirrel distance to decrease. Yeah. Yeah. What's that lady's name? Shauna. I have her book. It's really good. She's been on Danny's show a couple of times, Danny Jones. And I think she's been on Rogan once in a while, too. Shauna swan? Swain? Something like that. Something like, yeah. Yeah. I read her book. Shauna swan. Yeah. Her book's all about that. And she talked, and it's not to be funny. Like, it's legit. An animal's measurement of the taint and its decreasing at a rapid rate. Yep. Cross-generation. Guys have longer taints than girls. Yeah. So, this is a problem. And the weird part is, as we break the separation between day and night, we break the separation between male and female. What I mean is, girls are starting to get PCOS in these conditions where they're making more testosterone and andrens. They're becoming more masculinized. And guys are making less testosterone, more estrogen, becoming more feminized. That feels like such a fucking plan, dude. I'm sorry. My head goes there. It's like, you see all these things happening. You see all the inputs that you are. You just described a bunch of them. Now, fucking every male, including me and you, apparently, have microplastics in our balls. Yep. That wasn't a thing 60 years ago. And it's such a litany of things that you have to wonder if there's some sort of weird dystopian fucking plan at the top to change this. It's even psychological warfare. You're making women and men hate each other online. Are you team Lindsay or are you team fucking don't kill your kids? I think that's where we're at now. They make us fight over this. Yep. And it's by design. It's very monetarily good for them. But more importantly, people ask like, what's your favorite study you've read? Like, one of the most important studies I read in 2015 was circadian photo reception, influences loss of virgin. Sounds like whatever. Circadian photo reception, influences loss of virgin, which sounds like what the hell is you talking about? Yeah. Well, the idea was they took two groups of people, one in group in a blue light in rich group, one group in a regular room, the group of us more blue light enrichment was more likely to keep gambling. Oh, well, circadian photo reception influences loss of virgin. Okay. What's that saying? You're when your soda circadian photo reception is altered, you're more likely to gamble essentially. Gambling behavior. I'm reading the abstract. Yeah. Is persistent and growing societal problem and unexplored factor that may encourage gambling behavior is the impact of circadian photo reception on cognitive processes underlying the behavior, by the way, where do people gamble these days at, yeah, there you go, investigated the influence of circadian photo reception on loss of virgin gambling by altering the blue content of light while maintaining the same visual brightness, holy shit, 15 participants, 18 to 27 years, completed an economic decision making task under blue enriched and blue depleted light of equivalent visual brightness on separate occasions in a randomized order. The task required participants to choose between taking a risky gamble of a positive and negative outcome or a less risky guaranteed outcome hierarchical, Bayesian modeling was conducted to drive individual parameter estimates for loss of virgin and trial by trial performance was analyzed using linear mixed models. The findings demonstrated that individuals were significantly used the word significantly less loss of verse under blue and rich light compared to blue depleted light. Whoa. So that's the cows you use this model. That's all the models is like, Hey, you're under blue oil day, you're more likely to keep gambling. I gotta say this, man, so there was, you know, I've been really undercapitalized with brand deals on the show, which some of that's my fault and stuff, but like, we're trying to do more over the last couple of years. And there were a handful of ads we did with, or like two or three with draft kings and then a handful over, I don't know, mostly a one year period with prize picks. And I don't have that gene, whatever that is that wants to make you go bet $5 or more of the dogs going to take a shit. But, you know, I didn't really think about it a ton. And then I thought about like friends I know who have that gene, maybe because of things like this, by the way, you know, news alert there, where they have to do it. And I've seen people get so lost in it. And I thought to myself, I was like, do I want to read an ad that then is going to activate the crack head in someone to take out their crack dealer right here and fucking gamble, fuck that. And we very publicly split with gambling ads, like back in April or May, and like we won't fucking do it. We won't touch Polymark. We won't touch any of this stuff again, though. This is another thing I'm pointing to that it's like if you wanted to fucking drive the population in on itself, make a bunch of young people addicted to shit like this so that they're losing their ass, they're getting depressed, they're high quarters all the time. They're not fucking out there dating and procreating and shit. Like it just feels that way. Yeah. No, and then I mean, do you see, do you see Jack through Jack Cruise on Danny Jones's podcast? Of course. Yeah, yeah. That was a good one. He goes into the story about this. Apparently according to Dr. Cruise, it starts with the mafia bosses in Vegas. They set up the Vegas casinos to be blue light and rich. No windows, strippers, alcohol. Take your money. Wow. The problem is if you just restore a lot of these biological processes you wouldn't need all these peptides, you wouldn't be obese in the first place, because if it influences the loss of version when it comes to gambling, what does it do when you're choosing what food you're going to eat? 100%. People are like, "Oh, it's their choice." They're fat because their choices have been changed by artificial means and some people are more sensitive, less sensitive. There's a gene on that photo receptor that they're talking about that can predict if someone can get sad, the seasonal factor of disorder. And those people are more likely to respond to bright light therapy lamps, and they, apparently in my practice, responded very well to epitalan. Wow. You can bring on peptides, orally, inject whatever it is as a support tool to bring somebody back to where they need to be. I think we've gotten to this humanism next generation thing, anti-god world, we're like, "Hey, let's be smarter than God in evolution." Push evolution forward. Right. Which I don't like that. I'm all for innovation, like if we can restore people's function, improve people's lives, that is great. I don't think we need to be so anti-god. Yeah, I hope people listen to you on full podcasts like this and get the context because it's really useful because if people just looked at you on the surface, they might put you in a box or something or say you're trying to do more of this. I find that the way you're looking at this is with the appropriate combination of excitement and caution and also trying to diagnose things that we're ignoring as well. Right. I hope you keep that too, because that's definitely much needed in the medical space. Yeah. I like to break things into electricity. There's treating a problem as one thing, restoring functions, another thing, and then maximizing functions as a third thing. If you confuse the three, you can get mixed up. Treating in a cute problem, like, "Hey, you have an infection where you give you thimes and awful one, which is proving other countries for that indication as a peptide." That's treating an acute problem. Restoring function, epitelon with broad eye therapy with blue eye blockers at night, can restore your circadian clock. Great. Someone comes to me like, "Hey, I'm an executive. I'm going to make $100 million and if I don't perform, I'm going to lose all this money. I need testosterone. I need the best peptide sac. I know how to help them maximize." Right. And I'm going to tell you, hey, there's going to be a trade-off to what you're going to do. without you're thinking about minus the trade off not over doing it. doing it safely, doing it carefully, make sure they're monitored, checking their blood work, make sure that they're in the right spot. And most of these guys that come in with low testosterone anyways, from stress and the lifestyle they're living, it's like, hey, some testosterone prescribed at the right time to the right person can be life changing, marriage saving, in many cases, it could also cause deportions sometimes, because if you take up two patients and this is not studied, this is just my observations, one of them goes on home replacement and the spouse doesn't. You get a discordance in their libido and their affect and their mood, like a lady will bring her husband into clinic, because she's on hormones, she feels a great, and her husband isn't. She's like, fix my husband or else, things aren't going to be good. I ain't getting down, let's go. My favorite patient is the lady that's 55, she's menopausal, we're putting her on some estrogen, a little bit of testosterone. She gets her life back, it's very therapeutic, and then she's like, hey, put my husband on the same stuff. The point is, you can do maximization, but I think you should build on a good foundation first. You should be restored, you should be vital, you should be doing the diet exercise, sleep, stress management, all the basics. So you're looking at that stuff first, trying to get that in order and then where you can supplement with it, where it medically makes sense, then you explore that. Yeah. And then go back to the GLP ones, like use them as training wheels, like a patient comes on, they get on the GLP ones, we help them change their blood shut with food, get better sleep, stress management, change their life. They got some momentum going with the GP one, slowly pull that off. Now, like every other doctor in existence, whenever, as far as I know, please correct me from wrong here, whenever you are prescribing things, like there's always, there is a monetary incentive that's attached to it because you get a kick back on the drug, so it's no different with like a GLP one and stuff like that. It's worse. So like, if I'm prescribing you, I don't know, an antibiotic, what's that you called me? Like, hey, I got, I got a foot fungus or a foot infection. I got a pus, I needed an antibiotic. I'm not going to get kick back directly from prescribing you that antibiotic. I might bill you for the visit, but I'm not going to get a kick back from the antibiotic company for that. An antibiotic company might be funding my medical school, funding the American Board of International Medicine. There might be some kind of back room deals happening, but directly, no. If you come to most doctors nowadays, this is why like this longevity anti-aging medicine world is kind of scammy, if you go to them, you want a vial of PT 141, they buy from the pharmacy for $100, $150, they sell it to you for $500. So they're making a $400 profit off of you from using the medication. So they're more incentivized to give you more peptides, more drugs, more therapists. Like, we sell our patients like, hey, you pay us for our expertise in our thinking. You're not paying us for the products. We'd like to give them the products that cost plus whatever that administrative fee is just to get the product out to them. That's how we like to do it. And a lot of times, I'm telling patients, take them off their protocols because they come to me on nine peptides. And like, why are you on this protocol? Like the only reason pulling them back, the only person that benefits the person who prescribed it to you to make more money, right. And then they let that side effects. I was like, well, I had one lady. She was on testimonial and very calm peptide and a lot of people listening to this testimonial and testimonial. It's a growth hormone secretedog. It makes your brain make more growth hormone. Now, why did she want to be on that? She earned growth hormone levels, she wanted some more recoveries, better body composition, some more fat loss, better muscle growth, better recovery than gym, all these things. She was on a crazy dose of it. She comes into my clinic as a transfer for another clinic. She's 10 pounds overweight from water retention. She thinks she has an autoimmune disease because her hands are getting numb because of all the water retention. And she's freaking out. And we're sending a lab for autoimmune disease. I'm like, wait, tell me your medication must be in. And she's like, oh, test them all in 800 micrograms a day plus epimolar. I'm like, oh, shit, you're taking way too much of this product. We checked her IGF on levels. They're sky high. And she's having a side effect to the medication. We're like telling you. So I have to give her another medication, lasex to die of research to get the water fluid out of her body. Yeah, within three weeks, we got her back to normal. But why would we even put her through that? Right. Being better stewards of medicine. Yeah. Now, that's the, we started to talk about this earlier, but kind of got off it like the Wild West black mark that peptides are as a whole. You got these people saying, scroll up on my TikTok and I'll send you a fucking peptide and probably sending you like, I don't know, baking soda or something. Yeah. It could be baking soda. Yeah. I call this out like three years ago. Like eventually she's trying to get a fentanyl in the supply. I don't think it's happened yet. That's what I'm worried about. Like what, why is there fentanyl and Adderall that kids are taking? Right. You hear about this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like poor, like 4.0 student kids at a school is things that matter all to get better grades and then found dead in their bed because there's fentanyl. I, there was a kid at my college who was a couple of years younger than me who was in a class than me actually, who that is exactly what happened to him. So very unfortunate. So eventually that might happen to, so far the peptide supply and not to be like, fear memory that hasn't happened just yet. The problem is, so let's say how we got here, GLP1s came out, everybody got hyped about them, doctors weren't that hyped about it at the beginning now or more so. Then there was a shortage, they got into the compound pharmacies. The compound pharmacies essentially make clones of the GLP1 drug. It's not called those Zembek anymore. It's still the same Zemeglutide. So the same active ingredient. Okay. They make it, they add some B12 and it's like, hey, you need some B12. So now it's come, come mind together. Why do we have to get through patent law? So Zemeglutide is under patent, but if there's a shortage, you can still compound it to meet the shortage of need or if it's meeting a specific dose of requirement or compounding on another drug to meet a specific patient need and they would get, they would use that. We'd add some glycine into it and now the patient's happy. Yeah, they just spiced it up a little bit. So people have made hundreds of millions of dollars from this as well, compound pharmacies and telehealth companies. Now you know when you, because you're a doctor and you're going to prescribe things, are you always confident with where you're getting it from? When we're describing it from the FDA-approved regular pharmacy, that's coming from EILLE or NarvaNortis, that's coming from the actual drugs. When we're describing their compound pharmacy, some of them are really good, APLOS, some of them are completely shit holes. How do you know what to look for? They, they're putting it out the reports on the toxicity on sterility, all these things and also there's reputation in the field. So that's then, why does this get worse? Then people start selling research grades. And our research grade has existed for 25, 30 years, what happens is, if you wanted to buy BPC 20 years ago, there was a website online, you could buy it from the up 20 years ago. Well, we'll use this website because it's no longer exists, it's called peptide sciences. It's got shut down or voluntarily shut down, let's say, voluntarily told. Peptide sciences probably did around $500 million last year selling illicit peptides. How do they do this? They put on the vial for research easily, and then you go to check out and you say, yes, I am a researcher, I'm not using this for humans or animals. I'm mostly doing this for cell culture research, but they can legally ship it to you. You get it and you inject that right into you. That's what ends up happening. This was a multi, multi million dollar year. I suspect that we're talking about 10 to 20 billion dollars of research grade peptides have been sold over the last 12 months. 10 to 20 billion. Yeah. Peptide sciences did half a billion to alone. There's hundreds of these websites now. This is one thing, and I think about this any time I see something pop up, but you've been laying out today really well how this stuff's been around and some, you know, you were aware of it in 2015 and you even had your grandma taking a GLP one in 2005. So it's not like it wasn't here, but the whole, this came out of nowhere thing a year ago. I don't even remember the word peptide being used roughly, maybe give or take. This year, fucking, you know, you go to a family dinner, you're ants talking about it, whatever. And I always go a little bit like, okay, wait a minute, when I see something like, it's like NFTs. Yeah. You better know where. And then suddenly everyone's poor. And everyone who pushes it now is still, is like, I can have everything's normal. Do you think about that a lot? Yeah, I do. I'm like, that's why I never expected peptides to blow up. I'm like, no one's going to want to check themselves with stuff. I think the GLP ones made people less needle phobic, and they're like, hey, if I can lose weight from this injection, what else can I get out of injection? Yeah. That's what ended up happening on top of that, it's the affiliate game. Yeah. Like, you could make way more money than the doctor telling you not to take peptides. If you were an affiliate on TikTok selling peptides, that's right. And you don't even have to own a peptide company. You can make 30, 40 racks a month affiliate peptides on TikTok to soccer moms. I wonder if some of this is getting in a totally different way, obviously, but we'll end up, we'll be seeing documentaries like we see on the opiate crisis now. We will things like this. You believe we will. I think we won't. Not today's thanks. Opios are just strong medications. Right. It's a different thing. It's a different in that. And peptides, there's a lot of therapeutic benefits that come out, out of them potentially for certain problems. Like, I told, I told the story on the human bug, guys, I tore my tricep, working out with some bodybuilder, like layer wheels and a friend Adam. It's purple from here to here. I heard the pop. When was this? This was October of 2025, so almost a year ago. You tore your whole tricep? A great two-tret. The tear. So there's still a little bit of attachment, but I could feel the divot where it was missing. I put BPC-157, took some secretive logs, and into the thing. How much we talking? I was taking five, ten milligrams a day of BPC-157, so that's like a lot. I have to dose. Yeah. People take like a milligram a day, but I can, I don't know. I was like, hey, experiment. I like that you're done experimenting. Am I on yourself? I'm like, hey, I don't have the time to get surgery right now. I need this fixed. If this is going to work, it's going to work for me, otherwise we're going to see what happens. I go to a potlock later that day, and they're like, hey, is your tricep hanging off? My friends said this, and then I'm like, yeah, it is. I'm like, it's probably going to need surgery, this sucks, whatever. Next day, purple from edge to edge. I put BPC in it for a couple of times over the day, and then I'm like, oh, it's getting better. At the time, I'm getting PT for my ACL. So, too many injuries. Be careful how you lift. I'm an idiot when it comes to the gym, doing jiu-jitsu, and move time, all these things. But my PT guy's like, oh, the triceps didn't do better pretty well. Quick, like he quoted me three to four months for a grade two tear, three weeks I was back in. - That's even seems quick, three to four months for a grade two tear. - Yeah, a grade three tear needs surgery. Like peptides are not gonna magically heal a grade three tear. - Right, so grade two is when it's not completely ripped off, but it's like, there's a nice rip in there. - Yeah, a grade one's like a strain. - Yeah. - Or a strain, what we're talking about. - It's a nasty injury. - Yeah, it's a nasty injury. It's very freak injury. Like, it happened because the loads were using, might be because of the my side mutation. The muscle belly's bigger than the tendon can handle. - Right. - So anyways, I put the BPC in there. And a few weeks later, I'm back to normal, I never had surgery, my tricep is intact. So I'm like, yo, that's pretty cool. So if that was true, I'm still skeptical myself. I'm like. - That's an insane placebo effect though, if it's a placebo effect. - I mean, maybe not even placebo, maybe I just had just a good healer, right? I have great genes together. - You have them gangus con. - Yeah, there you go, right? So I don't know, maybe. - Did I say that politically correct this time? - Yeah. - It seems to give me the thumbs up. - That's nuts though. So you're putting five to 10 milligrams in there. - Yeah, anyway, like so, here's the cool thing. If that works, I have a million use cases in the ICU for BPC 1.5.7, for a patient that's coming in. Because BPC was developing gastric juices. The main effect it was studied for was for ulcerative colitis. - So you were using that in the ICU? - No, no, I'm saying I would love, if this became an FDA-proved drug, to be able to give a patient an infusion of BPC. - Yeah, I was real confused from- - No, no, no, no, no. I wish fairy land, not real world, not loud. If I use that nice to you, they would reveal my hospital profile, just probably tell you where my eyes are. - Yeah. - Right, and so, that's the reality of that world. But if it works, if this story that I had, if that was really from BPC 1.5.7, then we need to get this in the hands of military operators, although all ladies that fall and slip and tear something, like, it could dramatically change the things. So it's not about taking it forever. It's about taking it, how can you take this as a course with an injury? And then you hope it doesn't get like passed through in a way such that it goes behind the, you know, the great wall so to speak here. - Yep. - And they suddenly spiked the price 40,000 fucking percent. So people can't access it, yeah. - Yep, exactly. That's what's gonna happen. - That goes there with that. - I mean, like, my favorite peptides, probably pinealion. - Pinealion? - It's a Russian peptide derived from cow brains. I think there might be something in there. I don't know what they sent you. - I don't know what they sent me either. - That's BPC 1.5.7. Which one were you snorting, Dave? Which one? - Right here. - No. - Pinealion's cool. I took something last night. Pinealion is a brain performance peptide. It increases brain energetic potential. - Oh, let's go. - So you'll get very vivid dreams out of it. - Okay. - But like no brain fog in the morning. The more the increase in dream state, the more it seems to be baseline dysfunction in brain metabolism. - Wow. - So I have a guy on Twitter that's tagging me every day. He's like, I have bipolar disorder. I've been taking Pinoleon. It's not medical advice. It's not an approved indication for bipolar disorder. He's like, I got my brain waves measured before and after. And my brain waves are more conducive to positive outcomes. - Whoa. - Yes. And I don't even know what bipolar patients have brain waves. Like I'm not a psychiatrist, it's not my specialty. But. - That's fascinating. - It's a very, it's a three amino acid peptide. It's naturally felt like if you were to eat organ meats, like cow brains, which people traditionally ate all the organs before modern McDonald's system, you only ate the muscle meat. People ate all the organs. You would get some of these peptides naturally. And the Russians have studied these peptides on humans and they actually works on producing a better brain function. So like jet lag, not jet lag with Pinoleon, you perform better. - You can solve shit like that. I think all the people that travel on business all year. - Yeah. - No, they get used to it. But like it's not good for the body. - Yeah, so like with my high performers, I give them a mega dose of melatonin. So like I'm very anti-using melatonin for sleep. - Your nose does, yeah. - Yeah, I'm very anti-using melatonin for sleep. I think you should be able to make your own melatonin. - I have to, yeah. - However, when you're traveling to Dubai in just 12 hour time shift, there's no natural way to get around that. 'Cause it's unnatural to be able to get on the plane and fly 30,000 feet above the sky and go there. So anyways, I give them 200, 300 milligrams of melatonin. I have most people buy five to 10 milligrams, or one milligram gummies. I'll give them a mega dose. - How many milligrams? - 300. - 300. - Yeah. - I feel like enough to kill a fucking. - So that's the crazy part. - Alifant. - The first five to 10 milligrams saturate your receptors already, after that, it's not long. They're working on sleep receptors. It's working on whole body anti-acoustatus. I gave them some pinealion. They land where they're going, and they're just ready to go. - Wow. - Now what, so you mailed me as we said, the physical ones here at the injectable. - Yeah, this is my friend's company, your protocol. So there's a bias, of course, there. And these are all different. - Yeah, there's a bunch of them. They're probably Russian peptides. Violins, part of that thymus stack. Pinealion and epitalion are the most interesting ones there. - Million, I can't even tell which ones, which. - So this is the sewage-ins of stem cell activator. What else did he send you? BPC157, BPC157, there's an epitalion. Epitalion is the pineal gland circadian rhythm one. - What's this one, villain? - Phylon is part of that thymaline peptide. - That's the one I can't take it up here. - Pinealion is an interesting one. It can help boost the brain performance with the epitalion, it's more circadian rhythm. Combines together, you got like. - Get deeper sleep and stuff like more of that. - So like people notice like three hours of REM on their whoop. - Oh, let's go. - Yeah, so it's an interesting thing. - And this is a safer way, if you're gonna try this stuff, something like this, not necessarily this brand individual, but it's saying in general, it's a safer way to try it with a less effective dose, by the way, doing something orally like this to supplement, rather than trying to inject yourself and, you know. - So the way to think about it is, I break it down to, do they have receptors or versus no receptors, it has a receptor, it's a way more potent of an effect, but also way more risk of side effects. - Got it. - Like a jumping one's of a clear receptor, so we know what we're activating, what we're tickling. These bioregulated peptides, they don't have a clear receptor, so it's more hazy of what they do. So they're not as potent as the jumping ones, but they have a restorative effect that seems to be pretty safe. Epitalion has like 40 years of literature on it, from the Russian side, if you trust the Russians. - From the Russians. - If you trust the Russians. - It is good. - Yeah, exactly. - I mean, the crazy part is like, when you take epitalin oral injectable, whatever it is, your circadian rhythm is, like, people tell me, I get sleepy at 10 p.m. no matter what now. - Mmm. - So that kind of peptides interesting to me, 'cause I'm helping to restore their biological function, rather than trying to supersede. - Oh, that's cool. - Now, BPC oral is very interesting. I always travel with some BPC. Orally, I think it's one of them's BPC. - Might have put that away, but go ahead. - Easy way to track it. Yeah, BPC. Go eat some Indian food, some spicy food, whatever it may be. Pop BPC before it. If you have problems before it with digesting it, it won't happen with BPC. - From BPC? - Orally BPC is. - No, don't tempt me. I get more hungover from food than I do alcohol. - Really? - Yeah. - I'm very curious how your response is. - Like, when I, you know, when I eat something, this is kind of loaded with the bad shit or whatever. You know, I was talking about the McDonald's, that's an extreme example. But like, if I go have a huge dinner somewhere, 'cause I eat the same shit during the week, and I eat very clean and very well, if I go have a huge, hardy dinner somewhere, the next morning, I'm like, "Oh, all right, let's fucking make it in the gym." It's the first 20 minutes, maybe we'll be all right, you know? But. - BPC will, like, you know, you get some GI distress. Like, the BPC will take care of the GI side. - Got it. - And you'll feel like you have perfect, perfect. - This one, I'm very, the BPC ones fascinating to me, because it feels like, and I might be wrong here, but just in the way, it's been described by you, and some other people I've talked to a little bit about it, it's the most, what's the word I'm looking for? Kind of, you know what you're getting, versus the other ones, a little more basic, a little less worried about what we don't know about it, whereas some other ones seem to be a little more potent attacking something very specific, that's fair to say. - Yep, yep. I mean, BPC, like, I'm talking about this before, but Pavlov, the dog researcher, he would sell gastric juices from dogs. He would harvest gastric juices from dogs, and he'd give it to people for dyspepsia. - Wow. - For people that have like, dirt and stuff. - And it worked. - And it worked, supposedly according to his research. So, what do you think all this is? - What do you mean in a decade? Like, we're, and I'm asking you to weigh in a quantum guess, so this is total guess work right here. But one decade from now, we're talking about peptides and whatever new context we have with them. - Yeah. - Do you think it's been a good, clear net win for people? - I think there's gonna be a massive adaptation, there's gonna be a decreased people, like I'm sick of injections, there's gonna be some horror stories that come out with a fabricated real. People are gonna stop using them, and they're gonna maybe go shift the needle the other way, shift the pendulum the other way to say. And then, I think that we're gonna start developing more targeted peptides. - Targeted peptide. - 'Cause I think now with AI and stuff, like an AI fix is everything guy. But, there's a guy that I saw yesterday on Twitter, he like custom designed a compound using AI for a specific receptor. I was like, whoa, this is gonna get crazy. - Somebody get lead crown in here. - Yeah. - It's gonna flip out. - Is it anti-AI? - It's not gonna say, no, no, he's just like, there's, it's a compliment rather than, but in that way, actually, the way you're describing it that is kind of, if it's used correctly, I don't, I'm not familiar with how this guy did it, but like if he's using inputs that are already known, then create something that's kind of interesting. - 'Cause you can 3D model or septor, you can find something that binds into it perfectly. That'd be interesting. And I think that's gonna be targeted peptides. 'Cause like, what me and my team, what we do is we try to find the peptides that will be popular in 3, 4 years. - Yeah. - Ahead of the curve. Figure out if there's any usefulness in them. - Right. - For like unique cases. Now, I am very interested, more importantly than all of this stuff is like, how can we find a FIMAS peptide stack at the resource time function? 'Cause I'm very worried about where we are immunity-wise at five to 10 years. - Right. So like I agree with you on that very word about that if there's like a if you can take desiccated thymus from cows like yeah, it probably has to be less than six month old cows. So it has to be veal. So that's a limitation because if you have an old cow, it has an old thymus. That's like we do. So it's not good. So if you could figure out a way to restore people's thymuses, there's been some studies about using oral thymus extracts to that with some effect. Now you can find a way to restore people's immune function, whether that's strategic new ways to develop zinc and new thymus peptides, whatever, maybe it's going to be critical. I think it's national security risk to not have immune state fixed after the pandemic. Yeah. Oh, it's hyper designed. I've never heard of someone put it that way. I agree, though, there's a huge national security, right? Yeah. That's a great way to bring it home to people because it's like the whole society is vulnerable to things that maybe would be less vulnerable to. Yeah. If they actually had a good immune system thinking more in the lens of bio-attacks and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, I sprinted on myself. There's a peptide called thymus and alpha one. It comes from the thymus gone. We naturally make it decreased with age. It's actually approved in other countries, not in the United States. It's orphan drug status here in the United States. They used to give it for kids that were born without thymuses. I got this peptide. It's available with a lot of compound pharmacies, but also the research chemical sites, particularly caution. I got this peptide. I would get sick like once or twice a year in the hospital because there's so many germs. I would inject this peptide twice a week while I'm on the wards from, I say, November to March. I would wear the mask, everybody else. It's not even pandemic. It's supposed to be pandemic. All my colleagues are sick every week. What's something else? They got masks on. They're sick. I was like, whatever. Let's see what happens. I took this peptide and I'm let's say bulletproof. Thank God. Not getting sick. Rare resilient. I'm like, this might be a natural nice use case for somebody who's more prone to getting sick as a defense mechanism. So we're not necessarily trying to biohack and change the biology. We're like, hey, how can you make more resilience? You can do what you want to do. So if I'm going to take like a 12 hour flight, I'll take some time. So if I want to boost my immune system because the bigger problem, no one's really considering after the pandemic is like, I just came from LA to the New York area. There's different germs here than exists in LA. Sure. Yeah. I done this in 2019. They're being less risk than now. Why? Let's say my immune system is a little bit worse. Yours is a little bit worse than it was before. You're holding certain germs and viruses. He is. She is. We all have different germs and viruses. If your immune system is worse, you're holding more germs and viruses than you would otherwise. You're exposing me to higher risk now than I would otherwise. It's a cascading effect. Yes. So when I see people that are now anti-social or they're depressed, my question is, is that a feature or a bug? What if it's both? Yeah, it could be, but what if their new system is defending them from meeting other people until they can recover and rejuvenate? Because they can't even tolerate going out. This is going to shit like no matter what, peptides are one little piece of everything, but like medicine as a whole is changing the downstream effects socioculturally or also medical and evolutionary as a result to the pandemic and things like that. Wow. And then like obesity is one of the fastest weighty strength times. So everyone's obese has less immune reserve. That's why they get higher cancer rates. The problem is rapid weight loss also strength your times. And no one's on the study looking at guilty ones. And that would take 30 years to actually see the effects. Like we said, if I took your thimes out today, right, it'll take five to 10 years for me to notice a change. And that's the scary part for people, but it's good that like you're expressing that as well. So people can kind of know what we're dealing with here. But Dr. Buckree, I'd be talking with you for another three hours. We have another podcast right after this. I think you're going to stay for that one. Yeah. For sure. Do as well. But this is you're amazing at like the your level of knowledge and the scope of all this stuff. So we'll have everything linked down below. You're a great follow on X. We'll put up your Instagram there as well. And then also let's make sure we put up the link to your clinic so people can check that out. Sure. And if there's something for the app, you're working on that you want people to check out. Calibrate.de. Calibrate.de. So people can check that out. But we're going to have to do this again, my friend. For sure. All right. Thanks so much for doing it. Grab me. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is? Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace.