Andrew Huberman's GLP-1 Expert Reveals Big Pharma & Peptide Lies | Dr. Abud Bakri

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They get instant access. We use WhatsApp to connect doctors to patients. And then they get a prescription from us. They can take it to any pharmacy and we'll pay for the meds for them. That's cool. And then now we buy a pharmacy or have a pharmacy there and we use that to distribute the meds to them. So now you've had it for about three years. Like, how effective has it been? Obviously, because you're over here operating it as well. It's wild over there. Yeah. Like we have a bunch of employees on the ground there. Pharmacists, guys that deliver the meds, all those things. I'm there bringing Gaza, band from going in. Right. You said you told me your family's from the West Bank. Right. So you go there, a bunch. Yeah, through Jordan. Yeah. And are you a citizen of Jordan, too? I do have Jordan. Wow. Yeah. I think I was thinking about this earlier. I think you're the first Palestinian guy I've had on the show. No way. Actually. But like, how do you-- do you think that's even a solvable situation over there? Not with the current heuristics, let's say. I think the two-state solution is a lie. It's been a lie for 30 years. It's a lie, that's the thing. I mean, I was 15 years old. I landed in the West Bank through Jordan. It's the first time I go there, as a cognizant person, let's say. And I'm walking in the city of Hebron, small city. There is a Jewish quarter. There's the Palestinian air upside. And I'm like, this is impossible to split-- it's in the heart of the West Bank. I'm like, it's impossible to split this up. You're not going to move out the Jewish settlements inside of the city. Nor are you going to have the Palestinian just abandon that part of the land. So I'm like, oh, it's probably not going to work. Yeah, I mean, it's just one of those things. Even before October 7th, obviously, it's been going on for a long time. You just look at it and you're like, it's so deep-rooted. It goes all the way back. This didn't start in like 1948 or anything like that. It's long before that. And you were also telling me your family was obviously there, long before that as well. What was your grandfather? My great grandpa. So in '36, there was this giant riot. There was killing going on. My grandpa, actually, or great grandpa, hit a family of Jews in his basement cellar. They were going around killing each other. My grandpa hides his family. Till this day, we're in contact with them, actually. Oh, wow. Yeah. The whole family. Yeah. Now, what do you guys have conversations, obviously, about what's going on, what's that like? So that specific family, they're more liberal-minded Israelis. So they believe in a two-state solution, which I think pre-occupied seven people believe in that. And they want what's good for everybody. But I think after the after-occupied seven things got worse. For sure. Yeah. Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. Now, you were telling me, so you're a family in the West Bank. I want to make sure I have this right. They're from an area where it's not settlements because the settlements more happen in the north. Yeah, certainly. There's settlements in-- so he brought us a city where my family's from. That's where Prophet Abraham's buried. So, holy to Muslims, Jews, and Christians, you'll find a lot of pilgrims there going to that site. There's a-- it's called the cave of the patriarchs. You got Abraham, Isaac, Rebecca Lay, all the matriarchs patriarchs are buried there. So it's holy to both sides. So you'll find that city. There's a Jewish enclave inside the city, which is kind of unique in the West Bank. Now, more of the settlement stuff you'll hear lately is the area between Ramallah and Nablus. You'll find a lot of things happening up there. It's in the north and part of the West Bank. You'll see problems happening between settlers and Palestinians. Right. So, in running this organization, everything, like you said, you have people on the ground and everything. It's an insane war zone, though, as well. So there's all kinds of issues all the time. Have you run into problems with being able to get your resources to the right people and what's happened there? Yeah, so when the war started, we had the Egyptian borders to open. So we would get meds through Egypt into Gaza. Oh, you do it through Egypt. That's what we used to do. Then the Egyptian borders shut down. Yeah. Rough hours closed. So we couldn't get meds in. So we'd have to buy meds on the ground. There's a lot of hoarding that happens. People up sell and up price their meds. So we have to buy it from certain places. A lot of meds actually exist in storage facilities. And no one's actually accessing them. But we were actually able to get the meds out of the storage facilities into the patient's hands, which was nice. That's cool. But people are basically grabbing these and creating a black market out of it. Who's doing that? Local people. Yeah. Yeah. Any war zone, there's people that take advantage of it. Yeah, never let a good crisis go to waste, right? Yeah. Might as well profit out. That's fucking nuts. I know. What a mess. It's a mess. Well, I'm glad we could bring in, talk about some fun stuff today. Yeah. So I got tads. I got my box of peptides here from YozFunny because Amanda and I were sitting here doing some guest hunting like a month ago. And we were just coming up with ideas for stuff. And she's like, we should really do a podcast on peptides. I'm like, fuck yeah, I don't know anything about peptides. But I had seen maybe like 5, 10 minutes of your podcast with Huberman and like, that's the guy. So it's nice to have you here. But you are just so people understand your background out there. You're a doctor. You have your own practice and everything. You're also a younger guy too, 33, right? And how long have you had the practice? I've been out of residency now for three years. Two and a half years ago. But obviously like your fit guy, your bodybuilder. So that's been the craze with peptides with in certain facets. And now it's reached a whole bunch of other people. So we'll get into all of it today. Get some real education on it. You guys are going to watch me learn live about this because I really don't know much about it. But before we get to the actual peptides, like was medicine something you always wanted to do growing up? Yeah, I think since like a ninth grade and you know, it was going to be a medicine. Why? The moment I opened up a biology textbook and I saw the way the inputs and outputs work, I was like, this is something I want to figure out and know how to game and optimize and it just was natural. Yeah, you seem like a really a people person too. That kind of job, right? Yeah, yeah, it's good to help people. Yeah, yeah, I mean, the science part of it is very pleasing. I think medicine now has lost its soul, unfortunately. Lost its soul. Yes, medicine used to be like this godly, humanistic endeavor. You knew your patients, insurance companies weren't involved. Now it's just about getting patients in and out of the hospital. You could say in some ways like when a patient becomes a Medicare asset, it's a little bit of a human trafficking game. A Medicare asset, that's kind of dark. It's dark, because what ends up happening? I'm an internal medicine doctor. So I do my private practice. That's my concert practice where I take care of elite performers that want to optimize their game. And then on the hospital side, we take care of patients that are getting admitted to the hospital with heart failure, liver failure, kidney disease, whatever it may be. So on this side, I'm preventing you from getting there. On this side, I'm treating you if you are there. That's interesting. Yeah. So it's the full spectrum of the medical system. Now, what ends up happening is the medical system becomes in the nanny state and the retirement home and the drug treatment center for all these societal ills, right? So a patient doesn't have family members around. They're a Medicare asset, let's call them. They get into the hospital. The hospital tries to get them out of the hospital as soon as possible. So they come in for a heart attack. They probably need two, three weeks to recover. We're going to get them out in one week to a nursing home. They're going to be in a nursing home. They're going to be packaged back up. The nursing homes are a big scam. It's going to be packaged back up. That's unfortunate to talk about this. And it's like our elderly people that we should be taking care of. But they get put into nursing homes. The nursing homes are a scam. That's going to be like the next Netflix documentary. Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't made that yet. I feel like a lot of people out there are nodding their heads right now going. I've seen that. By the way, it's a great money maker. If anyone is entrepreneurial. Yeah. They don't take care of patients at all. Like, I had a patient once. They came in. They had no blanket on window open. It's in the middle of winter. It's not too cold in California. But this patient came in hypothermic to the ICU. I'm like, dude, like that's the $30,000 admission that we could have saved. Have they just put a blanket and close the window? Oh my god. Well, they're trying to toughen them up, I guess. Yeah, I mean, it's-- - I think Ben is still there and happy going. - No more. - It's like ice baths, right? (laughing) So that this patient gets sent to the hospital, they get packed back up, the ER doctor gets paid, the surgeon gets paid, the cardiologist gets paid, they pack to them back up, send them back out, the ambulance driver gets paid, the nursing home gets paid again. - And it gets paid. - And then you just go back and forth, everyone swipes their credit card on this poor patient, and I'm like, oh my God, this is such an unsustainable system. And then most of the medical costs will happen in the end of life. And that part makes sense in when you first look at it, that obviously you run into way more health problems on the average towards the end of life. But there's something so dark about that transforming from when you're a young person, it's a very small percentage of your monthly cost to, you're an old person, it's like, fucking 90% just to try to be healthy after you've lived your life. Like in our culture in America, I think about this a lot, we don't have the customs that a lot of other cultures have about family living with family and taking care of each other with the circle of life. Like I'm so jealous of like the Italian customs, the Greek customs and things like that. Like there's just something in the fabric of what we've built here culturally, a lot of our culture I like. But like this is something that's a huge blind spot to me. - Yeah, that's a big problem. And then that ends up beyond the back of the medical system. If you have a schizophrenic cousin, usually before that would be taken care of by somebody in the family. Now you just dump them in the hospital and then the hospitals take care of them. They end up homeless. It's a really bad system for people. - Yeah. - So. - Did you know a lot about the system before you started to get into it? - No, I think every medical student comes in with like dreams of saving the world and helping their foe man and being this, you know, after a sick person and then the system beats it out of you. - Right, yeah. - Which is kind of a shame, but it also takes people who are in it and see it and live in it to be able to like come out like you and use a platform and explain like hey, we got some problems here. Let's fix it. That does feel like something that if there's something good to come out of the pandemic, I've seen more of that over the past four or five years. - I'd say so. - I never really heard a lot like that before. - Yeah, I think the pandemic accelerated the timelines on these things. Because I think the medical system can't make you healthy. Like you can't expect your doctor to make you healthy. The doctor is there to treat you if you get sick. The medical system try to act like they're going to make people healthier through the government or through insurance models. They can't make you healthy. They can only treat you if you're sick. It's on you to get healthy. Your doctor's not going to be with you in the gym. They're not going to eat the food with you. They're not going to make you sleep better. So that's why a lot of direct consumer companies now are trying to figure out how to fill that gap. - Yeah, which can get dangerous too. - Yes. And it's a lot of grifter that get into the space. But the problem is like if you come into a doctor's office, you have 12 minutes on average with a doctor, they're not going to be looking at you because they're going to be typing on the computer. - Or like doing the lower orientation force. - Yeah, see you now a few times. - So now AI's helping out with that at least. But the doctor doesn't know you. Like before your family doctor would know your grandpa, would know you, know your mom, everybody in your family would know what your unique circumstances. - Yep. - Your doctor now doesn't know you doesn't care about you. They're just trying to get home to their family and try to document bill for insurance so they can get the right code. Insurance denies the payment for the doctor. So the doctor is like miserable. So we become commodified assets as far as doctors. - A modified assets. - Yes. - This is so tough to hear. - Yes. - That's true. - Yeah, 'cause doctors don't run hospitals anymore as much. The hospital needs to be run by doctors. Now they're run by administrators, they want to go costs. So people have to take care of their own health. - Yeah. - I've been microdose in something new lately and it is not what you think. A lot of people refer to it as nature's wine. And the mushroom I'm talking about is Omni to Muscaria. 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But this is a guy who came up in it, gets it, and understands how to solve those problems. I feel like doctors are really smart people. We got to find a way to do more of that to where people that actually came up in the rank and file and like understand what's being faced, get put in the position to run the business. 'Cause like it sucks to say it like that. It is a business like you have to, there has to be incentives for people to want to enter it and there has to be a way that things are run organized so it doesn't lose money. But there's a way to do that more humane and you keep referring to it. I think we should obviously continue to bring this up like the insurance system is just fucked, man. I mean, we all know it from the patient side of how much patience gets fucked, get fucked by insurance. But like I think some that also needs to be talked about is what you're bringing up, which is how much it affects the medical field. So like you guys, the professional is doing it. For people out there who are totally unfamiliar with how that might work, you mentioned a few minutes ago about sometimes doctors are trying to get things approved and they can't get approved. What are the biggest two or three biggest problems that as a doctor you run into with insurance companies on a daily basis? - Yeah, like compensating for imaging in labs. Like let's say you come into my office, you wanna check your vitamin D levels. You're like, you know, I don't think I get enough vitamin D. I can't order that for you and get it covered unless I have evidence that you have low vitamin D. But how am I going to know you have low low vitamin D if I'm in charge of your level? So then I obviously like to suspect low vitamin D, you know, depression, mood disorder, whatever. Maybe it's kind of bullshit code. To get you to, I can order you this $10 maybe, $20 test at most. And insurance is going to build that for 50, 60 bucks to get it compensated for the $10. It's a whole scam on that side. That's a problem. And then let's say you come in like, hey, you want, you hurt your knee. First of your knee working out, I want an MRI. I think I have an ACL or a minuscule injury. Insurance would be like, yeah, you know what? Maybe he can do PT first. It's like, no, I'm pretty sure he has a 20 CL. He needs, you know, got to protect you. Hopefully you don't ever need to move that. But like, I think he needs a MRI. And then the insurance would be like, no, he didn't authorize. And then by the time it gets authorized, you're waiting two weeks for the patient to get the MRI and get connected with the surgeon. The patient's four months out and they haven't got surgery yet. That's, that's really unfortunate. Especially if you have an HMO versus a PPO. Mm-hmm. And then you also like, what about the percentages of like, payouts and stuff? It seems like they're taking a huge big on the other end. So correct me if I'm wrong here. It's also compared to maybe 30 years ago end pay for doctors, just way lower, right? Yeah. Even the number has gone up, but with time, it's not commensurate with the inflation numbers or the rise in medical expenditure as a whole. I say, doctors, like doctors, when we're younger, we're kind of like the ballers in the community always. Right. Not so much anymore. Like, you take a pediatrician. They're barely paying their mortgage and their medical school loans. So, see this, I take a huge issue with. Yeah. Because you guys also go to school for such a long time, you're doing something that helps people or is to try to, I hope that's why people are trying to get into it, right? And it obviously takes a high level of intellect to be able to do the job. So if I'm going to have something even be expensive, which we all want to try to figure out how to bring healthcare costs down everything, but let's say it stayed expensive for a minute, I would feel a lot better about it. if I knew the money were going to the person who's actually putting in the time to treat me, because it also incentivizes them to get better at their job and be able to spend more time. When the money's going to some fucking business somewhere that gets to decide this shit behind the scenes, it also disincentivizes doctors to be great at that. - Exactly. And doctors don't really care about being great, 'cause technically the sicker that you are, the more visits that happens. And it's not the doctor themselves, like I'm not shitting on doctors. It's really just the way the system's set up. It doesn't really incentivize good outcomes for you. And the insurance company knows they have you for three to four years, so they don't really care if in 10 years you're healthy or not. So it's not the incentive to drive outcomes, and if there's no incentive for you to be healthy, then who's gonna make that decision? The federal government's not doing a good job at this. - Clearly. - Yeah. I know everyone who wants some Medicare for all and all that stuff, but that's not well run. - I mean, the government's running a system that's like, now I'm at an eye level. - Crazy. - I never heard. - Who'd have thought? - Wow. - That's why you want hospitals to be like that? - Unless Steve's mom's there. - Yeah. - He holds it down there. - Yeah. - Donatee at the DMV. - I'm gonna move out here then. - Yeah. - I don't want to go to DMV again. - You're hooked up at the DMV. You shouldn't take any shit. I wish everyone was like Donatee. But yeah, like obviously government run agencies for some reason, you know, maybe a lack of incentives by the way. - Yeah. - Right? Because they're all on the same kind of salary. Like, why would you try harder? - Yep. I did my training on the majority of it at a VA. So I took care of veterans. - Oh wow. - What was that like? - Amazing. But partially because of the VA's terrible. They don't take care of the vets that they should be taken care of. I think the vets deserve a little bit better care. Luckily for me, the VA allowed me to have very minimal pages per day. So I could take an hour with every patient I wanted. - Oh, that's cool. - And help with an introversa in this. But Uncle Sam doesn't check who orders what? The VA just covers things. Like what, there's only insurance company, the VA. It's the VA just covers everything. - Right. - Order whatever I wanted for the patient when it comes to lab work, when it comes to working them up, checking cardiac markers, testosterone levels, getting them on GILP-1s. So I ran kind of a concierge practice out of the VA. For these vets, I had vets like talk to the VA kind of sucked before, but this has been great. - And edit. He got charged. - Yeah, yeah, there you go. - I'm kidding. - But if you're gonna do it, like by the way, the like that's a place where guys should have absolutely no red tape to be able to get shit. - Yeah, I know it's great. - You're gonna do a way better job with our veterans. Like I had a guy, he was like 300 pounds. He needed to get knee replacements on both knees. It wouldn't replace his knees until he lost weight. So they sent him to gastric bypass surgery. The bypass surgery was like, "Hey, at least 10 pounds first. Show me your committed before I'll do the surgery." Now this is, yeah, I know, that's crazy. This is 2021. - This was when you were committed. - That's why. - Yeah, ozembix is about to get approved for obesity at the time. From the body within the circles, we already knew it was working. This guy's like a low grade diabetic. I switched all those meds to ozembix. He loses 60 pounds over the next few months. He's like, "I don't need the gastric bypass surgery anymore." He's like, "You know what? I don't need the knee surgery anymore." Because my knees feel better. I just lost all his weight. And it was a microdose, like, let's say many dose of this medication, the VA paid for it, and the guy had a great outcome. So you could really manipulate the system and make it work for you if you're committed to it. Now, you're doing all this, was that during, am I understanding correctly? Is that during, like, residency? - Yes, in your residency, yeah. - Okay, so with medical school, obviously, you do four years undergrad, you do three, four years of actual medical school, four years medical school, and then you do three years residency. - Resonance is three to seven to eight, depending on what you want to do. - Wow, yeah. - That's also crazy too, because you look at expenses. Now, doctors might be coming out, like, to finally actually have a job at, like, age 36, you have spending a fucking million dollars or whatever, one education, they got to take loans on that, and now they're also getting less take home or the insurance, that's nuts, man. - Yeah, like, the proceduralist, like, the people do, like, GI doctors, they do colonoscopies, surgeons, cardiologists to get competent a little bit better, than your non-procedural doctor. - But you say in, like, pediatricians, I'm gonna say the least, that's crazy. - They're terrible. - They're taking care of kids. - Yeah, they don't get competent at all. It's a very challenging job, 'cause I take care of a one-month-old, and a 17-year-old is a completely different job. - It's like a horse and a dog. - Yeah, exactly, like, so these poor pediatricians have to deal with all that. - That's crazy, man. Because, you know, I also think that's, I don't know what your thoughts are here, but I think that's one of the problems incentive-wise in big pharma, too. They're not, they make money on a subscription model. They're not incentivized to heal you. - That's right. - Yeah, and that's why, like, a lot of these compounds that we'll talk about today, they come out of, like, Soviet research. - Soviet research. - Yes, yes. - So they were incentivized. - No, Soviet research, they wanted you to perform better, to better astronauts, to better shoulders, to win at the Olympics, and to-- - At least in communism wasn't all bad. - Yeah. - You mean, people, people-- - I'm joking. - People starved, but at least they had grown up, it's right? (both laughing) - Yeah, we had good apple eating. - So long as it was getting to the people that mattered. - Yeah, it's like-- - Right. - Like, there's only two options, each of the obesity epidemic, Stalin or GLP? - Yeah. - Stalin or GLP, Jesus Christ. Yeah, and I'm gonna want, we're gonna get all the differences between stuff today, 'cause your boy's gonna be learning it right along with all you. And then I'm sure there's people in the audience who are very familiar with this and are maybe using them, so you can tell them what's good and what's not. But when you were coming out and doing the residency, you're doing stuff at the VA, and then you were also telling me, 'cause a boot came and got to work out in this morning of the gym, so we were talking a little bit about this. But you were also telling me that you were, like, on the front lines of COVID for several years there, was that from like the jump, like in 2020? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first day of my residency, it was COVID. - To just throwing it. - Yeah, it was thrown in. - No, but now what are you doing? - So I was in telemedicine resident at the time. So we do clinic work at the end of the VA, we do ICU work, and then we do floor so we're on the regular telemedicine floors. So we rotate between those three things mostly. So like, a few months in, we're on ICU, intubated patients everywhere, people on ventilators. - Right. - Yeah, it was brutal. - So people, that was the thing, that was a huge mistake that happened at the beginning. They thought they were supposed to treat patients when it got severe with the ventilator and end up killing a lot of people. - Yeah, that's the big discussion. It's been like, is the ventilator killing people? Or the people just so sick they were gonna die anyways? Like, there's the conspiracy world. Like, when we had a patient, like, they're in the ER, they're on maximized oxygen therapy. They're on high-flow nasal cannula, which is like, put me 40 liters of oxygen into their nose. - It's a lot. - It's a lot of oxygen and they're setting 85. They're like, they're shorter breath. They look like they're about to pass out. Like, your option there is put them in the vent or looking die. - Yeah. - So like, they were put on the vent. So I, there's just like, you know, criticism of doctors and I have a lot of criticism myself. But I think at that point, you had very little options. Now, the criticism comes in when they were trying early ventilator strategies. - Right. - They just vent somebody, that was a little bit too early to kind of wait a little bit. I think that was a problem. 'Cause they thought they could save the person's lungs. Yeah, the problem is like, that virus. Like, either you had nothing happen to you and it was just like a little cold or it got really bad. I think that might be related to some of these peptides we'll talk about today. - I think it's also like, you know, none of us out there were virologists at the time and then everyone became a virologist. But you learn about one of the basics with viruses is that when they start, they start the most aggressively because it's like, here we go. And then when the virus starts killing the host over and over, it's like, oh, slow down. 'Cause we need that. So you naturally get a curve. What they ended up trying to do though was it was like two weeks to stop the curve and they're like, we're gonna keep the curve the same no matter what. When did, like, how soon did you start to look at any processes that were happening or how it was being talked about to where you were suddenly like, hold on a minute. It seems a little off. - In early 2020, before lockdowns, we were in our last week of medical school. And we were sitting in the back like all the bros. And we're, yeah, you know, there's the bros, there's the nerds, you know how it goes. And they're like, that's when they came out and say like, hey, masks don't work, don't use masks. And we all look at each other like, for every virus we encounter, we use masks. Like, what are you guys talking about? - Oh, like something's up. - And they're like, oh, we were saying people that so they don't hoard the masks. They have masks for healthcare facilities. But I'm like, don't lie to people, we're not stupid. - Right. - Like, we as the public deserve truth. And you're not gonna lie to us to manipulate and then you've already lost my trust. - Right. - And then I'm like, that's kind of weird. And then the videos that were coming out of China, you see on Twitter from late 2019, I'm like, something's fishy with this virus. And then the fact that it infects thymuses and if you heard the word thymus during this whole pandemic. - Isn't that like the thing up here, whatever? - Yeah, it's the only tissue that shrinks after puberty. - Okay. - So the COVID was attacking the thymus. - Yes, I mean, you knew this early on and no one talked about it and no one addressed it. - And then you remember that conversation. - The conversation never came up. Like, we had an immune pandemic. The first thing we should talk about is where your immune system gets developed. Like the gym for your immune system is this thymus land. - Really? - Yes. It's where your immune cells get trained on how to fight infections, cancers, whatever it may be. - Can we pull up like a diagram of this, that thymus so people can see it? All right, maybe let's start there. Can you explain this whole side? - Yeah, that's it. So yeah, the thymus I think is the most interesting conversation in medicine that no one's having. When I started talking about it for years, it was like, you're crazy. But now nature medicine, 2006, maybe you pull this up afterwards. It's like showing, it's a thymus study nature, talking about the importance of thymus is for longevity. - So this is right in between your lungs? - Yeah, right on top of your heart? - At the top. - Yeah, when you're young, it's giant. Like it will be this big. And then as you get older, it shrinks. - It shrinks. - The only thing that shrinks after puberty. - Is this the thing you were telling me on Twitter yesterday, Epstein didn't have, or whatever he always comes up somehow? - Somehow, somehow he comes up, right? - Is that normal for him to not have one? - After death, so that was his autopsy. After death is shrinks dramatically. But it's kind of weird. Why doesn't he have any thymus that's kind of strange? [BLANK_AUDIO] - Okay, so it does shrink, but it doesn't disappear. - No, there should be some residue. - Okay, so COVID was attacking this. - Yes. - And you knew that. - Yes. - And they weren't talking. - No one talked about it. - Not even the fouch. - No, and the funny thing is he's the most cited person on thymus studies, because of his work with HIV, though, the other virus that affects thymuses. - Oh, I don't know about that. So HIV. - 'Cause the T-cells that we talked about come from the thymus. - No shit. - Yes. - As you can tell, I'm not a doctor. - Yeah. - So he was, yeah, the thymus is essential for establishing T-cell diversity early in life, but undergoes profound evolution with age and is therefore traditionally been regarded as largely non-functional in adults. Here we propose this study that I'm reading. The preserving the thymic functionality is integral to adult health and longevity. There it is. - So I've been screaming this for the last few years on Twitter, everyone thinks I'm crazy. And then this comes out. It's like, oh, no. - Oh, this is recent March 22nd. - He's saying, but like Dr. Kavinsen that came up with all these peptides has been saying this since the '70s. He's a Russian Soviet doctor. That's in that now past. So like we knew that thymus was important. He did a study in 2021 using thymic peptides for COVID and showing them dramatically better outcomes. You can look this up. - He's using peptides for COVID. - It's called thymalan. COVID 2021 will become up on PubMed. - Were you tracking that when that happened? - That's when I started getting interested in this conversation. I was more familiar with like the American peptide scene. The Russian peptide scene is kind of disconnected given the language barriers, yeah, yeah. But lately, it's been coming together. - Yeah. So yeah, peptide drug thymalan regulates immune status in severe COVID-19 older patients. - So peptide drug thymalan isolated from the calve thymus is successfully used for the treatment of various immunopathologies including those in older age groups. The molecular mechanism of the thymalan immunoprotective action is due to the effects of the short peptides ke, e, e, w, edp. In its composition, these short peptides can specifically bind to double stranded DNA and/or histone proteins and regulate gene expression synthesis of immune system proteins, activity of gerontogenes and stimulates stem cell differentiation. Regulation of immunogenesis is a key factor in preventing the development of the psychotene storm. - Psychotene storm. - Psychotene storm that develops in severe COVID-19. So hold on, that one sentence. These short peptides can specifically bind to double stranded DNA and/or histone proteins. What does that mean? - So these peptides are fragments of bigger proteins. They seem to go back into the nucleus of the DNA and they can activate or open up certain regions of the DNA so you can have more gene expression. So what happens is you get older, certain parts of your genome don't get expressed as expressed. So like your eye cell and your liver cell have the same exact genome, yeah, your eye cell can see, your liver cell can metabolize things, right? The same exact genes between both sides. It's just different gene expression that allows them to be different cells. - It's like a different key to this door kind of thing. - Yes. And it's like the same library exists but then different books are pulled out of the library. As you get older, it's less resilient, let's say there's the eye cells, less eye, the liver cells, less liverish. So then you get kind of these bland cells and eventually you get cancers that are like kind of the ultimate undifferentiated cell. The body of the liver is the most important part of the body of the body. The first thing you get to do is to get the liver out of the body. So you get the liver out of the body. Yeah, maybe I'm way off with this, but there was, there was this therapy I was told about damn near a decade ago that I still see pop up once in a while called CAR-T therapy with cancer. And I believe it was something like they would take out the T cells and juke them with genetic material, put it back in and it would fight the cells. Is that basically trying to like unlock the door here? Yeah. The main stay of figuring out COVID cancer, autoimmune stuff is figuring out how to reprogram immunity. Cause I'd say that that's the big aspect of our health that's deteriorated over the last few decades. As our immune systems aren't as resilient as they should be. Why is that happen? Our lives are not commensurate with good biology, let's say high stress, no recovery, blue light, trash foods, a number of things don't lead to optimal outcomes. Like for example, the thymus produces a hormone called thymulin, it's a peptide hormone. It's the main hormone produced by it decreases the age. You need zinc for that to work. So if your desired diet's deficient zinc, you don't have to tell you like take zinc for immunity. Yeah, I take it every day. Yeah, the real mechanism is that it's allowing you to make thymulin. So actually, if I were to check you for zinc deficiency, the first sign of zinc deficiency is that your thymulin levels drop, even before your zinc levels and your blood drop. And most like standard blood tests don't check for stuff like this, right? You really have to order something special for that. So like on your CBC, you can look at your lymphocyte to monocyte ratio, which kind of tells you the state of your immune system. You can almost put lymphocyte to monocyte ratio and almost any disease. You know, a study that comes up talking about how lower lymphocyte to monocyte ratios are associated with worse outcomes for the disease state. So like this is $3 test that everybody has. No one's actually looked at it. I've been tracking that for the last six years, patients, I'm like, I'll find a patient. They were, let's say in their late 20s, early 30s, they had normal lymphocyte to 2019. 2026, they come in diagnosed with a new cancer, and the lymphocyte count is half or one fourth of what it was in 2019. So question is, what caused that? I can think of a couple of things. Yes. Where that's the infection itself or other things that could cause it could have been multiple factorial on the mat side that these patients are now having these immune problems. Yes. So like there's a doctor, Dr. Patrick Schoenschung. He's the owner of LA Times. Oh, I've seen this guy. Yes, he's been, he's been screaming this from the top of the rooftops. Like he's one of the other people that's kind of on the same wavelength, and that T cells are going to be important. You need to have more T cells. He has a drug coming out, colactiva that's supposed to like hyper boost these T cells. So the idea is, can you use immunotherapies to prophylactically defend you against cancers and COVID infections and all these things? Free actively. Exactly. So the idea is like, if your lymphocytes is decreased with age and not as effective, can you take a drug that would then boost your lymphocytes? Then you'd be immune against all of these different things. Dave, what am I looking at here? You just put some sort of his, oh, that's the, okay, so that's Patrick Schoenschung's consultative. Yeah. Okay. He's brilliant. He was on Tucker. They were talking about his whole thing. He's like, I never got COVID the whole time, and Tucker keeps asking him like, how come you never got COVID? He's like, I'm T cell man. Oh, he wasn't like quadruple Vax. So he said, he said, so what he said, yeah, he said, they also B cell vaccines is what he said. But I took a T cell vaccine. I took this. And I had so much immunity that I couldn't get sick is what his claim is. At least. So there's a lot of this like, how can we, you know, different converging trends on how can we modify immune function with our peptides, drugs, hormones, whatever it may be to get optimal outcomes? Because if this ages before anything else, it's probably bringing down things in that study that you pop up from nature, it found that people that had bigger times this on CT scans had better health outcomes. I would love to see a study that just pulls all kinds of general populations. And if we haven't, I don't even know how you would do this. If you even had the data for it, people that you had it had data on what their dynas look like. Yeah. In 2019. Exactly. And pull that now to see what the average decrease is. Yeah. So like, if you look it up, like we knew that COVID in fact times is this is, there's a paper in 2021 that showed this. And we knew that we got CT scans on almost every patient, every few days, every day sometimes when they were in the ICU on the ventilator. So the time is right there on top. We're looking for lungs. Ignorant thymus right there, but there was an association within thymic reactivity and survival from being on the ventilator. Wow. So one of my hypotheses is that the people that got worse COVID infections in their thymuses had worse outcomes. And no one talked about that. We had strut. We theoretically had drugs that we could have used to deploy to boost thymic health. What kind of drugs would we have? The Russian drug thymilin. And it was a small study like 40 people in each group. And but they showed that they had better outcomes. So it was worth exploring at least. Yeah. That's just at the word thymus during the pandemic. Like give this key immune organ and no one even mentions it. No one talks about it. Like I remember I was nice to you, 2021, it's my second time around Rogan's on ongoing. Like, hey, how come we're not talking about a boost immunity? And I wanted to shout out in the roof. I'm like, 'cause we don't measure immunity like there's no way for us to track it. So the medical system sucks this because you have a cardiologist that looks at heart. You have a pulmonologist that looks at lungs. You have endocrine doctor that looks at thyroid and your testicles and all these things. No one really zooms in on immune glands. There's allergy and immunologist, but they kind of focus on allergic disease or allergic testicles. A lot of time in those offices. Yeah. Yeah, did they talk about thymus? Not really. Not really. But that should have been the focus of the of a viral pandemic. And it was. That's so fascinating. And it seems de-evolutionary too, because the reason you keep saying 2019 obviously is because it's right before COVID and lives changed on the average, of course, after that in the sense that we went inside under lights like this all the time, in front of blue lights like this and blue lights like this more than ever before. You start people start working from home on Zoom in front of blue light. They're not outside as much. You're anxious. You're anxious. You're cordoned off from other people for a long time period there. Agreed. And so you're killing. You're literally killing your immune system just by existing. Yep. Every day because you are existing in a non mammalian environment. Yeah. Yep. So you're selecting for non-resiliency and then I don't think people were selecting for non-resiliency. Yeah. That's a good bar. Yeah. Yeah. So it wasn't good. we should have been telling people like how do you supplement how do you get strategically like we know sun exposure is a key to immune function. Yeah, you were telling me that you care more about sun exposure than peptides. Yeah, and the peptides that I do like are the ones that regulate the circadian rhythm. And this circadian clock is circadian clock and immunity are the two things that are the age faster than the rest of your body. Your pineal gland shrinks before you go through puberty and then your thymus shrinks right after puberty. Interesting. Yeah. And the pineal gland produces meltonin and your meltonin levels dramatically decrease. If you pull up the chart, you'll see them before puberty start dropping. In fact, maybe the drop in meltonin leads to puberty. Right. And then after puberty, you're the thymus shrinks from the effect of estrogen progesterone testosterone. And then you get these two tissues that shrink faster. But some people are more resilient than others. Like there's a study where there's a 95-year-old guy on postmortem autopsy. He has a giant thymus. And it's like, how come he has a big thymus around people don't and did that lead to a longer? Did they learn things about his life and habits? They don't. No, look at it. That's the problem. That's that's what I was like, come on, guys, you should have asked. It could be a genetic predisposition because it seems that the people live over a hundred. Do you not live over a hundred because of their habits? They live over a hundred in spite of their habits? Okay. Can you explain that more? People live over a hundred or more likely to be smokers than the average population. Right. And it's not because smoking was good for them. It's because they're so resilient to the chronic disease that smoking didn't matter. In fact, they might have gotten some of the benefits of nicotine on some of the cognitive outcomes. So they didn't get, they were protective from cancer because they have anti-cancer genes. They're protective from heart disease because they don't have a predisposition for heart disease. So the smoking didn't affect them on those two fronts. And then smoking has some positive correlations being Parkinson's and dementia has been positive. Anti-diseas, they'll say. So these people live over a hundred and they're not healthy. But also, like, maybe I'm looking at this way to simplify. But like, think of the places where you might see that. I'm thinking of a couple in my head, Italy and Greece, where I've heard that side. I mean, I trained in a blue zone, like I did my training in Lomolinda because of this reason. I did Lomolinda, Lomolinda California has the only blue zone. And that's a disputed concept now in America. Wait, blue zone? Yeah, blue zones are these like six places on earth where people are supposed to live longer, Sardina, Italy, Okinawa, Japan. It's kind of debunked, I'll say. But I will say Lomolinda, we had a lot of 90 hundred years. Yeah, because I wonder, like, thinking about the European ones, they live in a culture there that's way lower quarters all just right off the jump. They obviously do in the places I'm thinking of. They have very, very nice climates and stuff. So there's also natural nature around and things like that. But even with the smoking, like, I grew up my best friend from all my life is a dual citizen of Greece, right? So he would spend his summers in Greece. I got to go over there and I know his friends from over there and everything. They all smoke, but they roll up just regular tobacco with a paper and it's like a process. They're not chain-smoking, you know, four fucking packs of marboros a day or something like that. And there was always, I'm not that I'm advocating like smoking anyway, but like, there was always something about that. And the laid-back lifestyle, I'm like, I could see how this could actually net be OK. Yeah, you know? Yeah, I mean, the laid-back lifestyle is probably the most important. Like, we're hamsters in here state side. We're just running as fast as we can to pay the bills. Yeah. And we don't have like a slow lifestyle. Like when I'm visiting an auntie in Jordan, it's like eights 4 p.m. Let's get some tea, it's relax, kind of slow, live life. Right here. It's like 4 p.m. We got to finish whatever we're doing for the day, get rid of the next day. Yeah, we went back to Italy again in June and the day my buddy, John, shout out, Johnny drinks got there next time you're in town. You should definitely go on his podcast. He's got one right here as well. But he was, he, he set, we sat down in a piazza in Florence and it was like five o'clock. And we're just sitting there for a minute. He goes, God, everyone here is just so goddamn calm. This is the life. And I'm like, the trade off is you can't do some of the things you can do in America. But you're going to get way higher quarters all going after it. So enjoy it while you're here. Our GDP is funded by human health. Our GDP is funded. God, you keep on giving me these dark truths today. But that's true. It's funded by the things that actually kill us quicker. We spend way more on healthcare than everyone else yet. We have a sicker population. Drugs cost more here, even though we're the ones developing them for the most part. Yeah. So that's unfortunate. That's fucking crazy. Yeah. Did you, like, how quickly with COVID, did you start to feel like any opinion that did not adhere directly to the mainstream was very much silenced? The question is, were they silenced or were counter-ciops allowed to spread? Counter-ciops allowed to. Yeah, because like, you got two streams. You got like the people that were mainstream. Then you had the crazy theories. Right. There were like almost perforated on social media. I'm like, that's weird. Why are they blocking these theories? You mean the answers in the middle? Yes. I'm like, oh, it's kind of weird. And I'm seeing in front lines, like, okay, we added just a gym. We all kept, we kept the gym open during the whole pandemic. Sue us, Gavin Newsom. We just put, we've all blinds up and we just kept rolling. We all got COVID really, really. The whole gym. We're all like, now how about like, did you get a band? No, no. We got, we all got a cold and headaches. And we're back, we're back to action. You're back. So I'm like, oh, this is before the vaccine comes out and they're like, oh, interesting. For us, it's not a big of a deal. And they were like, oh, it can affect everybody. It's like, okay, it doesn't affect young healthy people. And then we're on there. I'm noticing it's diabetics obese people that get the worst. That was like a functionally, you're functionally immunocompromised to low degree if you have diabetes. If you're insulin resistant, if you don't have, you can't metabolize carbohydrates, fats, and proteins properly, you're not going to have optimum immunity. So those are the people that got messed up. People that have transplants, you got really, really bad with COVID. Right. Like Oregon transplants. Yep. The amount of people that have kidney transplants that I had to put on the ventilator was crazy. And then really old people. Yeah. Like we knew that pretty early on. We should have just doubled down on those populations, rather than telling like every young guy that he had to change his life. Yeah. What did you think of like when they, when the vaccine was coming on, they were really pushing it because it was a real like looking back on it. That's a real line in the same moment for me because I was just kind of from the world that like, oh, yeah. Vaccines are like a great human invention. Never question a goddamn thing. And then COVID's happening. And I remember I had gotten the VACs. I had never had COVID before that. Then I got COVID really bad. And I was like, oh, this is bullshit. And so, you know, unfortunately, it just takes like realizing that you know nothing to like have something like that. But like in the medical field, when everyone's like, yeah, this is going to fix it. And then you see it's not fixing people. Yeah. No, you react to that. No, because they had said like you cannot get the virus if you are vaccinated. And I'm like, that's not true. That's not true for yeah, because we've never successfully vaccinated against a coronavirus. Like we've been trying to make a like a common cold. A lot of them are caused by coronavirus is we never successfully vaccinated against it. I don't think the strategy of using an mRNA platform was smart. Like the adenovirus factor was the traditional way you make a vaccine to go virus, either make a weakened version of it or an activated version. That's typical vaccine. Now they're making it with this new mRNA technology, which is like, why would you deploy that during pandemic when people are already kind of not trusting right? They're anxious. Like, hey, wait, wait for that technology to get mainstream because that technology might be useful on other platforms, whether that's like anti cancer things, other gene therapies in the future. But I think it kind of salted the platform. Everyone's mind. They lied to us. Like whether or not you're pro vaccine, anti vaccine, I don't care. What matters is that you didn't tell the truth to people. And then people don't trust you anymore. They don't trust us doctors anymore. I don't blame them for that because we screwed up a lot in the occasion. We could have just tell people, hey, we don't know. We're trying to figure this out, which would have been better than lying. 100 percent. What's that like to deal with behind the scenes? Because like, obviously, you have a good perspective on it. You understand why people don't trust the system now, but it's kind of like you were saying a minute ago. We kind of have these extremes that happen where it's like you either toe the line or you pull a shit or it's like everything that's ever happened is a lie. Just go live on your own reservation or whatever. And I would love the answer to be somewhere where both of those sides can meet. How do we make that happen after such an event like this? Yeah. I think if the good thing that would have came out of the maha movement is if they came out and said, hey, we're sorry. We screwed this up. We doctors screwed this up. Let's apologize on behalf of the whole establishment. We're going to learn and get better for the next time this happens because it likely will happen if everyone's times aren't as healthy as they are. The real immune consequences will probably be seen in 10, 15 years. Because the cells that your thymus makes today last you 10, 15 years, right? They last 10 to 15. Yeah. Yeah. They mean cells that they make the lymph sites. So you have a you have a trail of lymph sites that they can last even for a long time. It is. Yeah. They live for a while and they get old and they don't work as well. And your thymus makes new ones. Yeah. And as you get old, you don't have as much thymus left. So you don't make as much lymph sites. So if theoretically, if I'm correct and COVID did screw up people's thymuses, and that's why you have these long COVID syndrome and all these different diseases that you can no one can explain. If I'm correct, then in 10, 15 years, people are going to have a really bad immunity and you're going to see a big spike in these chronic diseases. So we need to figure out this immune conversation ASAP because we need to be able to measure this, which you know, MRIs now on you can look at people's thymuses or CT scans. We need to get lab work that can look at people's immune status. You can have functional measures. When it comes to getting sick, there's like three categories. There's like really resilient people, intermediate resiliency, and then no resiliency like people that never get sick. Right. That virus hits them that get in the coffer day and they're good. People that get sick really bad, but then they bounce back to baseline pretty quickly. Yeah. You know those people like they get hit. I'm kind of like yeah, I mean, most of us are there. Yeah. Yeah. I was there before experimenting with some things, but what's that about? Then I shoot myself up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, I'll tell you some experience I've done. Then there's the people that get hit and they just don't recover. They're like down and dirt for a while. And that's why people were like, "No, COVID was just a cold, COVID was really bad." It's like the truth is, it depends on where you were before you got hit. - And when you got it. - Exactly, in which variants, you got, and how many times you got it, and then did you recover or not? So the proposition is that if you didn't have thymix, so you have thymix atrophy whenever you get infection. So there's evolution that happens over time. Your time is gonna shrink. But it shrinks down during infections. - So every time you get sick, you're hurting your thymix. - Yes. - And it usually bounces back and sometimes bigger than it was before. But we had the concept of convalescence, like you'd go rest, you'd take some time off. But if you're sick, you're gonna be back working, if you're sick on Friday, you're working on Monday. So you don't have time to recover or rest in tricky socks. Your home on Monday is not great, you're not sleeping well. So you're not having the time to recover, so you just keep getting sick and sick. But when I tell doctors, it's like, hey, is it normal that you guys all get seven colds every year now? Like a lot of doctor friends, they get six, seven, eight times a year. I'm like, - You guys also live a wild lifestyle, especially when you're younger, too. - It's what I'm saying, you know? - But like the older generations, there were more resilient than we were. The older dogs, they didn't get six, seven, eight times. - Look at these buses. - Yeah, right. So like, we did 20-hour shifts to try to face that out. - So like, they used to be 36 hour shifts. - That's when they were tough. - Yeah, like some doctors will be there for 32 hours, not really. - Yeah, that's kind of nuts. I do feel like there's got to be a better way 'cause there's no way you're performing at a good level once you get along in the tooth with that, you know? - But what I will say though, is if you can perform at that state, you can do anything. It's kind of a little bit of a hazing process. - Imagine, yeah, imagine you're like the patient in the 28th hour and it's like, yeah, he's part of my fucking initiation. - No, it's happened. Like, one time I was coming on a shift to start my shift. I'm relieving the guy that just came out of his 20 hours. They did want the order five units of insulin. He orders 50 units of insulin. (laughing) 'Cause he had not slept. I'm like, poor guy, poor patient. - No, but here's what's really fucked up. - Like, that's funny. - The pharmacist approved the order. 'Cause he or she will sleep it, it's ended their shift. The nurse gave the medication. So I'm like, I'm like, how did you have three people? - This is a failure in the system. - Exactly. AI should hopefully fix this. - You should have caught that. - Oh, you went there. - Yeah, I was gonna fix that. - Oh, hopefully. - Yeah, I'm not saying. It's gonna replace us, but we'll see. - Yeah. - No, but some of the other systems are just like, hey, 50 units of insulin's a lot. Like, stop. - Yeah, I feel like that should blink. - Yeah. - Blink red, be like you sure. And three people screwed up and I spent the whole shift just resuscitating this patient, giving him glucose. So they don't crash. So like, it's like, oh crap. - Yeah. - That's wild. Now, you had said this earlier, but I wanted to find this before we get really deep into the peptide stuff. As an internal medicine guy, 'cause I still, I've had an internal medicine doctor before. And I'm always like, well isn't like most medicine, like internal, the same side and whatever, but you were explaining how there's the treatment side and then also like the intake side and the emergency room. But for someone out there who just wants to know, what do you do and what do you look at? What is a basic internal medicine doctors supposed to be doing? - Yeah, internal medicine is the father specialty of many specialties, cardiology, nephrology, pulmonology. So in order to become a cardiologist, you have to come and internal medicine doctor first. - Okay. - So that's the path you take. So like when you split up in medical school, there's really a surgical side and there's the medical side. - Right. - And internal medicine is that side. That medicines is its own thing. You can take people in more of the clinic setting. Internal medicine can be in the clinic setting or the hospital setting. You're taking care of complex diseases and a more general level without zooming in like a specialist. - So you have to speak a lot of different languages well rather than being in a proficient, Jeffrey Chaucer. - Exactly. And then you have to know who to call and when to call them. So like it. Like I manage congestive heart failure when I admit patient. So like, you know, you ask what the tip of the day job is. The tip of the day job for internal medicine doctor is you're in the hospital awards. You're doing some more around 12 hours. You're getting paid from the ER. Like, "Hey, I have a patient." They just came in. They did meth. They're in heart failure now. Can you take them in for the next few nights and take care of them? Get them back healthy and then discharge them back to the homeless shelter. Whatever it may be. Unfortunately, that's how a lot of these happen. Someone comes in on dialysis. They're kidney dialysis catheter or fistill is not working anymore. We admit them. We call them ephrologists. We get them a new fistill though. We're doing kind of managing anyone who needs to stay overnight in the hospital on the floor or the ICU. So that could be liver failure, heart failure, pneumonia. Those are the kind of the most common things. Kidney disease, kidney injuries, whatever it may be. We're packaged them up and then sending them out to the world. Interns companies are calling us every day. Like, "Hey, get this patient out of here. "Why is this patient still in the hospital?" - Wow. - So my job is pushing back on that. I'm like, "No, I'm not going to discharge the patient." - Excuse me. - You ever get to talk to these people in person? - Oh yeah. - You're not going to do that though. - Yeah, I'm like, "No, I'm not going to do it." Like, one time they're like, "Hey, you have to call "insurance and get a pyrothom." I'm like, "I'm not going to do it." I'm like, "The patient can stay here as long as they want." 'Cause I'm like, "You guys can figure it out." They want me to stay on the. Here's how the system's really bad. They want me as a doctor. It's been three hours on hold with an insurance company. They told them, "You have to get this patient paid." The patient need a discriminating facility. They don't have anyone at home to take care of them. They just broke their knee or something. And they're like, "You have to call and get that "authorized insurance as they don't qualify." I'm like, "I'm not going to call. "The patient can stay in the hospital. "You guys can figure it out." - That's fucking. - It's a scam system. - And it's such a bad use to your time in this way. - So I'm like, "No, you guys can figure it out." And they figure it out. I'm like, "But you wanted me to spend three hours on the phone for something that should have been approved automatically." - Yeah. It does seem like you said it's a precursor amazing kind of job because you really do see everything at 30,000 feet in the air. - Exactly. - Do you want to stay as an internal medicine guy or do you want to eventually do another type of medicine that you're going to be qualified to do because you do this? - Yeah, so my original plan was to do like cardiology or any chronology whatever one was. The pandemic kind of changed my views on things. 'Cause I wanted to say generals I can see all these things. And then on top of that, my private practice is a performance and longevity. So it's about how do you avoid. - Right. - The disease that we treat on the internal medicine side. So I think that's where I want to put most of my attention. That's where most of my attention is now. But at the same time, I got a lot of these longevity doctors. They could lose touch with their common man. If you're treating bezos and open on all these people, you don't really know what the experience is for. - You could name in your clients. - Yeah, no, that's not my clients. Definitely not my clients. You lose the ability to relate to the common dude on the street. - That's right. - You kind of pigeonhole, you don't understand what's going on. So you need to stay in both worlds. Are you doing the clinic most of the time and still going in the hospital? - Yeah, so I saw my privileges at the hospital. - So you got both. - Yeah, so I drew off. - That's good, 'cause you got, like you said, you kind of keep both right there. So you opened up the clinic what, three years ago? - So my private practice opened up two years ago. We really started growing last year. I've never advertised that I have a practice. People just find you on Twitter like, hey. - That's how they, it's all like wow, like social media word amount. That's pretty good. - After the urban pod everyone wants to. - Well now. - Yeah, I was like, whoa. But I don't want to advertise that I have a practice. I just, it's on my website. Like, hey, you want to come patient? There's a little box in the corner. - How did he find you? 'Cause you were at Twitter. - For people that don't know, he was obviously a boot was on Huberman's podcast a few months ago and everything. But he was like, this is the peptide guy. So how did you become that? - Twitter. - Twitter. - Twitter is where you meet people, man. It's kind of crazy. - Andrew Huberman discovered on Twitter. Let's fucking know. - Yeah, no, he's been so good to me. Like, shut up to that guy. Like, when I had a smaller account and he'd be like, hey, everybody follow this guy. Like this guy's getting the next peptide dude, whatever. I'm not the biggest expert in peptides, even though he keeps saying that. There's a lot of smart knockers out there. - Definitely know the thing of 10. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm deep in it. But, respect to the OGs that have come before us. - Hell yeah. And he's also like Huberman's obviously, like a huge fitness guy and like health guy as well, who's, I'm sure, very, very interested in this. That's like a cool synthesis right there. But let's start at the top with this. So peptides are obviously something that exists in the body. I think it'd be great just to explain that and how that works over time for people. And then we'll get to these. - Yeah, yeah. So peptides are one of the languages of the body. Let's say the way the body works is there's codes and languages you have to translate to get the system that you see existing happening. So that DNA's language, RNA's language, proteins are language, peptides are language. So one of the ways you can write the alphabet is amino acids. The amino acids, there's 20 of them that our body uses. You find them in protein. They can put together in different strings and the different code signals different things to happen in the body. - Like build muscles. - Yes. - So you just tore it down. - Yes, exactly. So insulin is technically a longer peptide. So yeah. - Interesting. - Yes. - So it could be a protein, it could be a peptide. It's kind of in between, but it's technically a peptide. It gets secreted from the pancreas. The pancreas puts together as amino acids. It goes to other tissues and tells them, hey, uptake sugar, right? - Got it. - So it's a communication language between cells inside of themselves and then to other tissues. - Okay. - So when you're, that's how it happens indulgiously inside the body. Now when you take a peptide exoginously, you are now giving a new signal in terms of the body to do something else. - Now can that have, if you take it exoginously, depending on how much you take, how you and we'll go through all the different methods and stuff like that today? Is there a danger with your body then becoming reliant on that? So it stops actually performing some of these functions because you're giving it something from the outside, meaning that if you stopped it, your body wouldn't be able to do said function anymore? - There is a concern about that. For example, with the GLP-1 peptides, there's almost popular ones, those are Mbic, Mongero, Terjepetides. - They kind of like open the door to people really talking about this, right? - Yes, yes. - Yeah, and we'll get into how that happened. But those peptides, they activate a GLP-1 receptor. Now when you stop taking the peptide, you gain weight and the idea is it, because you desensitize the receptor, decrease the receptors, and now you've kind of changed the dynamics of the system. So whenever you perturb a system, you influence a lot of things for a sort of a second-order third-order. And that's where people like all these bros on Twitter, TikTok. selling peptides. They don't realize, like, when you're injecting peptides, they actually it's natural. It's not natural. You're changing the dynamics of what's happening in the system. There's a lot of consequences that you're not keeping an eye on. And so as in Trump hasn't talked about, hey, guys, what's up? Let's, let's, let's look at this whole thing. What's going on and make sure that the risks are better than that, than the benefits are better than the risks. Also, I, that's the other thing with the black market here. They might be selling Mexican cock fighting fucking steroids or something. Like you don't even know what half these guys are fucking doing. That's a scare. I mean, that's got to be a scary thing for you with everyone coming to you and being like, if I walk into the gym now, that's why I didn't have it today. Like you're like, hey, are you the type guy? And they're like 18 year old kids. Like, hey, I want to jump on red. I'm like, bro, you're 18. What are you doing? I wasn't going to, there were a few guys in there. I wasn't going to say anything because they had you to decide for like, fucking 40 minutes from now. But I'm sure they'll watch the podcast. But yeah, it's like, we'll, we'll get to that for sure. But it's also, maybe I'm misunderstanding this. But when you're talking about peptides, that's a huge fucking label. And they'll be way different things, right? Yeah. There's almost nothing similar between BBC 157, the regenerative peptide and ozambic, the GLP1 weight loss peptide is do you have like a parallel for, for, is it like pasta and ice cream or is it like pasta and medicine or like, the best way is to make you simple for people is like, it's like saying supplements. Like you can have magnesium or you can have zinc or you can have omega three. They all, they're all supplements. They're the same category of, of ingredient. But they're way different things. And they perform different functions and act differently on the, but I guess the best way to explain it's like their concrete structures. The concrete structure could be a giant building or it could be a small stone, right? They're made from the same thing. They're made of concrete. A concrete could be a bridge or concrete could be a little stone. Okay. So, but just because they made up the same thing doesn't mean that you know, they have the same utility. And in fact, the CEO or the janitor, you're working at the same company, exactly, different jobs. Exactly. So like people, people act like peptides as if it means something. When you say peptide, it can mean 20 million different things and different risks, different benefits, some are supplements, some are drugs, some are FDA approved, some are not. So there's a lot of discussions. We have to stop and stop saying peptides as a whole. I like to look at the subcategories of the peptides. Like the JLP ones, rushing peptides, the growth hormone peptides and regenerative side. So like a couple categories we can go through. Okay. All right. So what's the history of this? Yes. So now, what did you call it? The external exogenous exogenous. Yes. Exogenous. Exogenous peptides. Like, what's the full history with when they first started where they started? I think you mentioned obviously Russia, but like, let's just run through that. Yeah. So like, there, we have known there's peptides for almost two centuries now. There was a doctor, Alexander Gulovich, that isolated karnasine out of muscle meat. He did what out of what? So karnasine is a dali peptide. Okay. He's the same muscle meat of animals. And he isolated that dali peptide. It means two amino acids. Two centuries ago, we did this. Yeah, they had microscopes and they could figure it out. So like, science has been progressing, right? So like, we've understood peptides are part of this, this, let's say, design of life. We almost 100 years ago, we find insulin. So they take insulin out of animals and then inject it into type one diabetic kids. And I've heard of the story. Like, the guy who did it, like, he had a group of kids. They're all like on that store. By the time he injects the first one gets to the last one, the first one's like up to life again. Whoa. Yes. It's one of the cool so 100 years ago. Yeah, but I don't even know his name. We should, we should, you know, shout out to OG. You should know this. You imagine like, haven't had discovery like, oh, shit. I think I just landed on something. Yes. Okay. Because like, you saw, like, these are all kids that are about to die. He gives them insulin, like, they're coming back to life. Wow. Yeah. And what, by the way, I don't think I've ever asked someone this or done the research on it, but what makes someone be born with diabetes? You hear about how diabetes develops. Obviously, it's more self-explanatory, but is it just strictly, you know, a genetic deformity or something like that? Yeah. So, there's type two diabetes. That's what you hear about like someone who's 300 pounds. They get diabetes in their 60s. There's type one diabetes, which happens to younger kids. They're not necessarily born with it, although they have a genetic predisposition, but somewhere around three, four, five, 10 years old, they get an autoimmune attack where their immune symptoms are attacking their pancreas, their beta cells, specifically, and they stop being able to produce insulin. Got it. Okay. So we just pulled this up. You've got it. In January 1922, Canadian scientists, Dr. Frederick Banting, Charles Best, and James Collop visited a hospital at Toronto General Hospital, filled with children dying from diabetic keto acidosis, acidosis. Thank you. At the time, type one diabetes was essentially a death sentence, and the only treatment was a strict starvation diet that only prolonged life by weeks or months. The scientists walked through the ward where dozens of children were comatose and actively dying. Oh, my God. So, they were like literally on dust. Yeah, yep. And injected them with a newly refined pancreatic extract named insulin before they had even finished injecting the last child in the room. The first children injected began waking up from their comas. This became wow. The peptide used instant and they put in quotes now. Yeah. Insulin is a peptide hormone made of a chain of amino acids. Another important piece of the history is CPEPTI to buy product created when the body makes its own insulin. Today, doctors use a CPEPTI test to see how much natural insulin a child's pancreas is still processing. Yep. So great, great story. But it kind of makes the theme of animal derived peptides that you get an animal organ. You spin it down and you get a peptide out of there that you can have a therapeutic effect from. So they use it from animals. It used to be like that. Yeah. And then they got bacteria just make insulin and then purify it and then take the raw material out. So between two centuries ago, first separating century ago, treating diabetics and learning that whole thing, it's now evolved into, well, there's way more of them and now we can do even more so we can create more exact spots to do. Yes. Like, for example, my first exposure to this, you asked me like, well, got me to medicine, is my grandmother diabetic, very sick her whole life. It wasn't for the medical system. She probably would have died in her 50s. Thank God. She had great medicine access and that, you know, dramatically improved her quality and extended her life. Growing up, I saw her take the first GLP1 medication. It's called Bayeta. It was like, yeah, 2006 or so. She dramatically changed like her cognition got better. She lost some weight. It wasn't used for weight loss at that point, knowing you about that feature really besides bodybuilders. 2006. She did this. Wow. So Bayeta came out with a 1065, I think. Yeah, Bayeta is an injectable prescription medicine used along with diet and exercise to improve blood sugar control and adults with type 2 diabetes. Yep. So my grandma had been on insulin for a decade plus. She on this drug, her insulin requirements decreased. Her blood sugar was better controlled. All of her symptoms got better than she got access to the drug and then she got dramatically worse. She lost access to it. She went overseas, couldn't fly back, got sick, very expensive overseas. You couldn't get it. Wow. Yep. And you're a kid. Yeah. So you're 13. Yeah, exactly. I remember her taking the injections. She's like, oh, this makes me better. So that kind of got me think about medicine, the GLP1 wave. Now, GLP1s are isolated out of a heli-monster reptile venom. You heard about this? A heli-monster reptile venom. Yep. It sounds like a comic book. Yeah, exactly. So if you look at the heli-monster, it'll come up. But the way to think about it is we've been looking for medicines and therapeutics for thousands of years in plants. And now we're looking for therapeutics within animals. For example, aspirin comes from the willowark, right? Yeah, I think of it. Metformin, all these different drugs come from different plants. Even statins come from a fungus, right? So we're looking at these different compounds that we isolate from nature and they make them into drugs. Now we're looking into like human cells and animal cells and what peptides already exist to make drugs out of those. And those are very potent molecules with that GLP1s, insulin, the new peptides, times peptides, whatever it may be. No, this heli-monster would barely eat, that was one of the describing features of what it does. It's bad things, barely ate. Yep, it's crazy. It's not missing any meals. Yeah, I know. Exactly. So that's why the Trump said that. Like, hey, you're taking the fat shop. It doesn't look like it's working, right? Maybe inject it back into him. Yeah, fuck. Yeah, so these guys in their venom, the isolated, the concept behind, well, we can't imagine that you'll be one drugs. Now the conspiracy theorists online, like, oh, you're injecting reptile venom. No, you're not injecting reptile venom. Oh, no, don't do that. Yes, yes, yes. This is a rearrange Peter Teal's name. No, yeah, I saw that. Not great. I saw that. That's how you post about that, yeah. I always wonder how that happens, though, where they're just looking at this animal, like this heli-monster. Yeah. And they're just like. So they buy humans. They buy humans, and humans would have like certain consequences of that. They get septic. They go nice to you and stuff. So they're like, hey, what's in the venom? So some scientists was like, yeah, I wonder what's in there. Maybe it could help. Yes. Even though it probably took some mushrooms or something. And then something's going on there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. When, when were they tested this for GLP ones? Is that like shortly before 2005? Yeah, no, it was like two decades of research of development. They make the first drug biota. And then ozambic is like the third generation technically of this class of compounds. It's a little bit more potent, last a little longer, and then they got it FDA approved for type 2 diabetes, which is diabetes for a while. And that was a huge downstream effect, though, because then everyone started using it for diet, and the diabetes patients couldn't get it. Yes. Which that's an issue. Yeah, exactly. So what ended up happening, let's say, how do we get to this peptide wave? Bodybuilders were already talking about GLP ones for a while before they were FDA approved for obesity. So the ozambic was FDA approved for diabetes. Diabetics started to losing weight. So the company is like, Hey, if diabetics are losing weight from this, why don't we use this for non-diabetics, right? So then they develop it for non-diabetics. They get that FDA approved in late 21 or early 2022. Well, we can check, make sure that's the accurate. And then the same compound, semiglutide, that's ozambic. Semiglutide. Semiglutide. Semiglutide. It's labeled as "wagol v", yes. Semiglutide is the parent compound. It can be ozambic for diabetics. Oh, oh, just the name. Got it. Or wagol v for obesity indications. It just gives them more patent protection. That's why they're being named, you know, that goes for anything. Yes, exactly. So that comes out, and then people start using it like crazy. In fact, it's very expensive for Americans to buy that drug. Insurance and cover it first for obesity, even though it's FDA approved for obesity. So it's like $1,500 for a pen here. Yeah. People just drive down to Mexico to go to pen for $150, and drive right back up. But you don't know what's in it. No, no, it's a, it's a, the same, it's the same pen from the same company in Overnordisk. Oh, he's Americans have to pay more. He's got it. Then the Mexican pharmacy that has the same drug. So that's fucking crazy. Regardless of what you're talking about here, I know people have strong opinions on ozambic. Yes. The idea that it's like this with a lot of different drugs or things that might be life-saving or helping people, like if that's not the sign of a broken system, I don't know what is. That's like one tenth the price right there. Exactly. And then that opens up the rest. So people start taking this drug. I get it when it's a 300-pound patient that's obese that needs to lose the weight. The risks and benefit makes sense. There's risk and benefits to every condition. That's why I encourage people to think about that. I guess there's a benefit, but there's always a price to pay. There's no biological free lunch. Meaning like, no biological free lunch is a good point. We're going to come back to that. But random celebrity who already is in good shape, taking it to lose another 25 pounds and look like a ghost, probably not a good idea. Yes. And the doctor that's empowering that needs to be reprimanded. Because when I tell people, at least have someone looking at your face when you get prescribed these medications, they're like, hey, you should probably stop. You look like a skeleton. And we're essentially like doctors are essentially empowering anemics, not anemics, anorexics, 2% to have their anorexia now. Can we pull up ozemic face? Yeah. Just so for people that aren't familiar with that, I mean, it's so obvious. I know. I'm like, you're not. You're not really hiding it. Who do we got Amanda? Jenna Ortega. Okay. Yeah, so they're Sharon Osborne right there. She looked fine. Look, you know what I mean? Look, you know, she looks healthy. And then the right side, I don't even know what that is anymore. No offense. And what was what was the other one? You were Jenna Ortega. Who's that? She's, I think she's like a deer. She's over the knee and her. Oh no. Wait, she's beautiful. What the fuck? Yeah. Yeah, that's got to piss you off. Yeah, that's that kind of misuse of the medication. The problem is like celebrities go to concierge doctors and the concierge doctors just gives them what they want. Like in my practice, what I end up doing is dealing with messages that come up from other clinics. Like a patient will come on the wrong peptide protocol overdosed. A lot of side effects overdosed. Yeah, you can get you can miss. Because everyone just takes their their protocols and tragedy between like no one has a love for the game that actually my friend Ann started fucking injecting his stomach. I'm like, I don't know if you should. Somebody. So if you haven't finished a little bit of math, basic math, you shouldn't be reconstituting like these guys have their chemistry in there. So I'm like, I'll change my life. Yeah, like how long should been five days? Yeah, exactly right. So like we need to have better stewardship of this problem is now you don't need adopters go online and buy this stuff. Unfortunately. Yeah. So the so we'll kind of pick that up. We got ozambic FDA approved. It's a medication. The medical field is kind of anti to start by the way. Like people are really adopted for the first few years. Well, also what does it even mean anymore to have the FDA approved stuff? Because I think that the the veil has been lifted on how corrupt that whole process. It's right. Yep. It's a prep process because it's a revolving door. Like if you work at the FDA during this administration, it's a good chance you're working at five at Pfizer and Merck or one of these other companies very soon. Yeah. And then you back in the FDA and it's a revolving door. That's a problem. Now the other problem is the FDA is an antiquated system for making drugs for disease states. And now we're trying to create drugs that help you perform better recover better. How do you use that same process that was developed to approve cancer drugs for a peptide injection for you to recover better after an injury? Like the same framework doesn't apply. It goes from life saving to luxury drugs. Exactly. Yeah. Because like the pharmaceutical companies, this is their big proposition. Now before they could only their tam their target audience was only sick people. Right. Now the target audience is healthy people. So they've dramatically increased their ability to market to people now. And the whole conspiracy theory that peptide bros to say is like big farmers anti peptide like no. Big far wants to get as many of these peptides approved so they can market it and get a subscription model and get people hooked on these peptides. Well, my question also is why too? Because if you really want to stick on the tinful half for a minute and be like, all right. You know, if you're trying to control population, you make sure people aren't living too long. So if they're giving drugs that make you live a lot longer, if there's some sort of catch 22 there where we don't know enough yet. Because that's also the thing like this is so new. I've read stuff again, very amateur over here, but with obviously I'm not a candidate for O's Epic, but I saw so many people using it. I'm like, that's kind of interesting that this is spreading like wildfire. But there's been a lot of information that I've read where they've said they don't have long term enough studies to know how this affects the body 20, 30 years down the line. Is that fair to say? So I'll take my example. My grandma took beta in 2006. That's 20 years ago. So we have 20 years of data on diabetics. On diabetics? Yes. Right. But on a regular person taking it. We have five years of data from when O's Epic got a FDA approved. Because like if I, I'm going to use a stupid example here, but let's say, let's say there's, well, there is an optimal level of like vitamin D in the body. But if I decided to suddenly overdose on vitamin D for like five, 10 years, it's going to do damage to my body, right? That's right. Okay. Now somebody who's really deficient in vitamin D, and maybe I take the same dose five, 10 years later, I'm at the normal level. Sure. Supposed to get. So it's kind of the same thing here, right? Yep. So there's a big connection there. On top of that, like the pharma companies have protocols on how to get you on there. They don't have protocols that how to get you off. Right. So like when I, I'll mention off, for my patients, I'll use a micro dose of these, of these medications. What does that look like? What I say is like, this should be like training wheels. Like your life is stressful. You're a 45 year old mom. You're so busy. You're 30, 40 pounds overweight. You've been trying to diet for 10 years. You failed at it. Let's actually get serious. Now get you to lose this weight before you damage your coronary artery, your kidneys, your liver, et cetera, et cetera. Right? I would prefer if she could lose the weight without any drugs, right? Right. I would prefer like everyone never needed an injection ever. Like I hope I never have to use a peptide ever or use any of these drugs. It'd be great if you just live naturally and be free. Is that frustrating, though? Like as a doctor who's also like really in shape and takes his health seriously? Yeah, of course. Yeah. But at the same time, like I have certain genetic predispositions that allow me to be in the shape. Like my family has a MyStan gene mutation. My dad's Jack, MyStan gene mutation. A MyStan gene. So you know those cows that are built like giant? Uh-huh. They have two copies of that gene missing. Is this what you were telling me? It might be. I don't know, man. It's kind of like, yeah, exactly so. Are you allowed to say that? Is that like racist? If I say, I don't know these days. I don't know, man. We're both going to cancel our hands. I guess. So if you look at the MyStan cow, the MyStan cow. Well, this is real. You're not bullshit. No, no, no, no. The mutation in the MyStan MSTN gene stops the body from making normal MyStan protein that usually limits muscle growth, which leads to extreme muscle increase and strength. You should've been using a heavy kettlebell this morning. We're saving the energy for up here today. It's not too bad. You see what I'm going to say. I feel like you're like that. Yeah, yeah. So historically, ization were used by white supremacid dammit. DeFi you doing this? You know, we're canceling the ball. All right, so we got to believe that out. Sorry. Listen, you can't. I'm from Jersey. Just it is what it is. But anyway, you weren't both shouldn't. No, so like my dad has it. We actually know exactly who has it in my family. They have a way better body types if they have that gene. So like I get it, like some people are not given the same genetic lottery that other people have. So I get it that, you know, we should allow that. And the second thing is I don't think it's all their choices that lead them there. I'm not absolving people of their decisions that lead them to obesity. The life that we live is not ideal for human flourishing. And for certain amounts of people that leads them to become very obese. In fact, the people that aren't obese modern day, they're the outliers. They're even so obesity. There was one little good piece of news. I hope it's not just because of like fucking ozemic, but last year obesity went down for the first time in what like 40 years or something like that. It's it's a jail piece once. Yeah, it's not like I got RFK. I was like it's because we changed the seed oils. Yeah, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah. So I would love it if everybody was, you know, outside in the sun working out at 6.30 a.m. whatever it may be. That's not the reality for a lot of people. Right. I get it. Their their their mom was obese when they were just pregnant with them. That makes them more likely to be obese. They were raised on a really crappy diet. They're eating McDonald's five times a week, whatever it may be. Light environment's not great. That's going to be the big uncovered too over the next five to ten years is that just. can read them big contributors to diabetes and obesity. - A huge believer in that, no. - Yep, yep. And there's studies where like if you just have a red light on you decrease your blood sugar, if you eat the same kind of food, so there's a lot of things to go into that and everyone should ignore it. It's like what do you mean, light can influence biology? - Of course. - Light is the biggest influence on hormonal outputs. - And why is that? - Because the biological systems have to boost the right compound at the right amount, at the right time. If you get them at the wrong time, you get chaos. So there's a certain rhythm that has to happen every day and then every night. And most people's rhythms are shifted dramatically, thanks to light. Because we were designed of evolution where we want to call it, based on the sun and the moon. - So when I had our mutual friend, Luis and Nicole in here, like two and a half years ago, I was just starting a recovery. I'd been really sick for like four years with the Asynonphilic asthma. And it was now on immunotherapy and it takes a while for that to set in, but like I was still pretty sickly and like making huge lifestyle changes. I went from, for the first four years doing this podcast, I went to bed at four or five a.m. every night, woke up at 10 and you know, just edited in front of a screen all day in the blacked out room, not good for ya. Lost all kinds of weight. I was down, I was 45 pounds lighter than I am now. Like very sickly burnt out, skin burnt out, everything. So I made a shift overnight in one respect when I started that treatment to totally change my day schedule. Got back to going into the gym first thing in the morning, going to bed at a specific time to help the circadian rhythm and all that. But when Luis was here, you know, she sees my place and she asked me, she was like, "Do you dream when you sleep?" I said, "Never." And she said, "Okay, well, I live in New York City. You live right here as well. It's always lit outside. Look at your place. There's windows everywhere. You have sky windows. There's light getting in all the time. You got French doors by your room right there where there's just windows coming through. She goes, "Do you sleep with an eye mask?" I said, "No, I'm not gay." And she's like, "All right, fine. "Keep having bad sleep then. "You need to sleep with an eye mask." And I'm like, "All right." And so I'm like, "Fuck, this is gonna work." I got an eye mask, dude. I will never not sleep with one again. We're completely changed my life. I dream every single night. And that whole circadian rhythm thing of like not going to bed at 4 a.m. when the body's not wired to do that. And they're going to bed at 10, 15 or something like that. Could not believe in it more. - Yep. More important than any peptide you're going to take, like just circadian biology is underpinning alms every health. If you put any disease and you sit, put a circadian rhythm next to it, you'll find tons of articles talking about heart disease and cancer risk and obesity, whatever it may be, and its relation to circadian rhythms. And we're living in, we're the first, let's say we're the first three generations, really. I have lived with broken circadian clocks. That's our grandparents, us, and our parents. So now we're having the biological consequences of that. And there's a normal real specialist in medicine that's going to address that. So a lot of doctors are like, "Oh, what are you talking about? "You've been telling you to go outside." It's a real red light changes your biology. Every single wavelength can change the way your biological systems behave. 'Cause we're trained to see certain wavelengths at certain times of the day. And that activates certain hormonal cascades. And the problem is, for example, people talk about melatonin, melatonin is supposed to rise. Three hours about before you go to sleep. Let's say the sun sets at seven p.m., you have no more blue light in your vicinity before you'd have candles or a campfire, whatever it may be. There's no blue light in that. It's red, orange, yellow. Very minimal amounts of blue. - It would naturally, yeah. - It wouldn't be high above ceiling. It would be on the floor, all right? Low thing. Within the next three hours, your melatonin was slowly rise. And then you'd get sleep, and you wake up refreshed. Nowadays, you're having blue light till the moment you close your eyes before you sleep for most people, the squirrels, the squirrels, and the squirrels, turning off their phone. And then starting the melatonin rise, which now delays all the other hormonal cascades that are going to happen the rest of the night. - Yeah. - So you're wondering why guys don't produce enough testosterone, why guys aren't waking up with morning wood, key biomarker than ask everybody about, if you don't have this cascade happening in order you're gonna have problems. - Yeah, that's the stuff I pay attention to now as well. And I know when I was working this week, we'd been working way too much right up to the fucking brim because it's not, even if I'm dreaming and stuff, and I still get some rest, it's not like your body's not fully circulated that way. So the actual window, though, just for people who aren't familiar and need to find them, when we keep saying circadian rhythms, what are like the, I kind of hinted at it, but like what are the hours here and what's the science there? - Yeah, so the screen rhythm, in your eye, there's a receptor called melatonopsins, the bottom of your retina, that looks at 480 nanometer blue light, that's sky blue. So our bodies are trained to see sky blue from the top, that hits the bottom of your retina, and tells your body wake up, stop making melatonin, and start all the hormonal cascades. - Okay. - That is supposed to hit you first thing in the morning. The problem is our LED lights are very enriched in 430 nanometer lights, so if you pull up the spectrum of LEDs, we'll see that. But a little bit poorer in 480 nanometer lights, while the sunlight spectrum is very enriched in 480, especially in the morning, and that helps you start this whole circadian cascade. So probably LEDs is they're too bright at night and suppress melatonin, but insufficiently bright and of the way a right way of length during the day to stimulate optimal. - Worst of both worlds? - Yes, the worst of both worlds. - Yeah, that's just got it right here. This is the spectrum you want. - Yeah, so right there, you see the top left, there's the LED spectrum. It boosts at 430 nanometers, that's the big blue spike. And then 430, where sky blue is, eh, not so much, right? Now if you look at the picture right below it, there's the spectrum of the sun, I think. A standard LED, yes, sunlight, see sunlight. - Yeah. - It's smooth, it has everything in it, it has a ton of 480 nanometer blue light and has a red and infrared and all the things you want as well. So LEDs are poor in red and rich in the wrong blue. Sunlight has tons of red, tons of infrared, the right amount of blue, and not too much of the bad blue, that's it. - And then we've also like between indoor lifestyles and stuff like that and vitamin D deficiency and everything. And I got some wrong protocol calls on like, sun exposure and stuff. We de-evolutionized ourselves away from the sun as well and like made us fear it. I'm not saying like skin cancer is not a real thing and stuff like that, but we have as far as some of the signs. I've heard recently, we have increased skin cancer because we've taken away people from the sun such that their body is not adjusted to it when it's in it basically. - Yeah, 'cause the other way to think about it is like, yes, skin cancer, especially melanomas, is a risk of UV damage. Not melanomas, of basal cell and squamous cell carcinoma. Those are the less serious skin cancers. They're all serious, but melanoma is a really scary one, right? Melanoma doesn't seem to be really associated with UV exposure. In fact, it seems to be an immune problem. - An immune problem? - Yes. Melanoma is a number one respond very well to immunotherapy. They're one of the cancers that respond well. Number two, in my mind, Dr. Patrick, a lot of these people can't. - Roger Patrick. - Dr. Patrick Shunchong, the immunobio, the way to conceptualize cancer, it's an immune-escaped phenomenon. And that your immune system right now is regulating, make sure any cell, a little subtle funky, it's kind of looking cancer-ish, kills that cell, knocks it out. As your immune system gets weaker, that regulatory aspect goes away. Cancer cells now can grow. Cancer starts to trick the immune system and tell it, "Hey, we're friendly, don't attack us." And they kind of encapsulate themselves away from the immune system so the immune system can't come in and kill the cancer. That's where the CAR-T there becomes in. You're retraining these immune cells to come in there. 'Cause it's very easy to kill cancer, by the way. - Very easy. - It's very easy to kill cancer. It's very hard. - So easy to keep man could do it? - So easy to keep man can do it. The problem is, you kill the cancer, you kill the person too. - Right. - That's what chemo therapy is. And I'm glad that the email therapies are coming out now. Chemo therapy, you're taking the person to the brink of death. - Yeah, on the cancer. - And then bringing them back from the brink of death and hoping the cancer doesn't come back. - Yeah. - That's exactly what's happening. Sometimes it works and a lot of times it doesn't. So these immune therapies are interesting 'cause when they work, like you'll see people's cancers melt off their skin. - Melt off. - So wait, wait. I'm trying to picture this in my dumb ass head right now. But like if someone, if suddenly this huge black spot melanoma forms right here, and I didn't go in the sun for like a month, for a month, but over that month it just forms like where does that come from? - There's a lot of theories on why it's happening. Some of them are little scatzo. But the reality is, it seems like the immune system is not regulating, the immune system in the skin is not functioning properly. - So it just forms this build up of bad cells? - Yep. In fact, there's a streamer that has got a melanoma on the bottom of their foot. The place of the sun never sees. Right? So this guy's a streamer, blue eye toxic, indoors all day, up all night. The damage in their immune system gets a melanoma. - Whoa. - So, that's a problem. - Yeah, dude. That's, that's scary to see. - And then how I lived. - Exactly. - I'm glad the damage was only, what I guess did. Ninja, Twitch's biggest gamer shares cancer diagnosis is March 24, 32 year old Fortnite gamer who has 90 million followers on Twitch said a mole removed from his foot was found to be cancerous. He said the second dark spot on his foot was also being checked. And though shocked, he was grateful to have hope that the cancer was found early. It's urging others to get checkups. - Wow. - And there's no sign of exposure. You'd be damaged happening on the bottom of your foot. - No. - Just tanning all there or something. - Well, maybe you're fucking holding feet up there. - Yeah, I don't know. - You have a foot only fans or something about it. - Yeah, you know? - You can't put that past the internet these days. That's right. - That's right. - Not smart. So anyway, we're talking about the GLP1's and the Zampix. So, Zampix forms, you even said your grandmother had an early version of the GLP1 with that. And then it becomes the craze in like 2022. And then you start seeing all these celebrities use stuff. Which also, I don't know how much you know about this. I know you deal with some high profile people. I'm kind of convinced some things I've heard in the grapevine that a lot of these experimental kind of things, [BLANK_AUDIO] it's GLP ones are entirely different things. Like, for whatever reason, the celebrities get them first. They tell them about them a while before. Is that? Yep. Yep. So some of my friends that are that train me on peptides have been administrating them to MBA players, celebrities since 2017. That's when they come to the combat pharmacies. Yeah. So like, this has been there for a while. And I told you earlier today, like, I've not about peptides forever. I thought I was going to be a thing in the power of the body of the community. I never thought this was going to become mainstream. I didn't think this was going to be mainstream. Like, I'm like, no, I want to inject themselves with things, right? If you misunderstand people's buildings, I guess I was wrong. I was willing to do stuff to get an advantage, right? Like, Clivicular, never heard of them. I never thought we'd be with Clivicular, and this is not about that later. Yeah. Yeah. You get them on here and see what they're guys. You know, I think so. I think I'm good. Okay. That's fair. I think I've seen enough on that. I don't need some 20-year-old otis telling me to fucking cut everything off my body and inject it with new shit, but. Yeah. But so you didn't, you really, well, let's start here. When did you first actually start actively using them yourself? Yeah. So I started using peptides before I was a doctor before. Yep. Yep. I had injuries. I was a powder. So you weren't OG. Wow. So I was using BPC157. Now are you like jockin' 'em or are you injectin' 'em? Back in the day, it was only injectables. The pill stuff is new and that's the new thing. Yeah, deflikes it. I walked in here just morning, having crushed up and was snortin' all day. Oh, man. Oh, man. International peptides work too. He was excited. Yeah. It's like, I'm doing peptides. It's really cocaine, bro. So that's what you should do? No, no, do not do that. Not medical advice, but there's some medical advice. Don't crush your peptides in some way. Okay. So the JLP one way of happens, I never, I mean, it was hard at first to convince people to inject themselves with something. Yeah. Right? But then they see their friend Stacey just lost 30 pounds and then they're like, yo, whatever she won't has, I want that. Yeah. And then people started takin' it. When's it happenin' is the compound pharmacies? There was shortage, right? You mentioned shortage, it was ambiguous. And WGV, there was not enough for diabetics or people using it for obesity. Right, but you're talking, you were using this way before that. So like, it's not you if you wanted to. BPC1557, TB500. Yeah, we're talking about, you know, 2015ish onwards. It's a way of really start takin' off. Okay. People were using them in the Olympics, illicitly in the late 90s, I'd say. Yeah. I don't know how you, we started to talk about this in the gym this morning, but I'm not sure how you feel about this totally. But my whole thought was like the steroid craze that happened looking back on it now. It's interesting when you're just looking at like performance enhancing drugs. There's an argument there. But I, they ban all these drugs that have to do with recovery, even ones that have been tested for decades that are safe. And to me, I'm kind of like, man, if you're a pro athlete and that's your job and like, we get to consume it because you're great at this thing, I would think we'd let that happen. And now they're even banning some peptides. That seems kind of fucked. Yeah. And definitely. And certainly, they'll allow you an exemption to use like growth hormone after your injury. So certain, certain players come back in the offseason, they're looking a little juicy. That might be why. Like if you tear your achilles. Yeah, you should be able to fucking growth hormone. Yeah, it should be growth hormone, stem cells, peptides, the whole works. And most of them are on. Yeah. Like if you injected, if I gave you some growth hormone right now and you injected it right now and you saw that came in, unless they come in within the first few hours after the injection, like if they came in tomorrow, they would be like, eh, it's hard to say. Really? Yeah, because growth hormone has a very short half life. Uh, on top of that, like your IGF1 levels would go up, but you could be like, they've always been up. My IGF one. So IGF one is the, um, come, uh, taking some IGF one. No, man. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, this is the dealer. I, I, I mean, when I was 18, bro, and it was tainted, I'd stop getting erections. It was, it was terrible. Oh, my God. Yeah. Like don't take random supplements from online. He's like Ray Lewis came back. And I got to use it. Yeah. No, no. So IGF one is this, um, we're doing the actual, like, yeah, dude, it was, but I think it was tainted with some stuff. Who knows? It wasn't that stuff. Yeah. So like, why am I growing a third dick? Yeah. I wish. No. So wow. Yeah. No, I mean, I can use it for like a week. And I'm like, Oh, this is not good. Like I'm like, I get erections anyway. This sucks. So I stopped that. I probably had some kind of estrogen compounds in there. Who knows? Yeah. Uh, IGF one is producing the liver, uh, in response to growth hormone in insulin. So when you make growth hormone, uh, from your brain, it goes down to your liver, it tells your liver to make IGF one. That's what actually makes the muscular, uh, gain effect and the fat loss effect from growth hormone. And your liver also does so much in the body. We talk about that because we've done a sponsor of the podcast and times, but it does hundreds and hundreds of functions at all time. Overlook the organ. Yep. Yep. For sure. Yeah. The, uh, the, the Arab world says the liver is like your soul. Like when you say, like, I love you, like you say, like, I'm, you're, you're my liver. Doesn't hit as hard as like, like, it sounds better in Arabic. I'll tell you that. It sounds kind of weird in English. Yeah. What does it sound like in Arabic? It's like, uh, it's like, it's like poetic. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds kind of hard. Yeah. Yeah. It's not good. Yeah. So that you, what's this call again? I, uh, IGF one. IGF one. So that is processed through your deliver. Yeah. But this is me. No, it's probably, I, I keep putting my phone on airplane mode. Yeah. Mine is there. And somehow it gets through. I don't, I don't really understand. Yeah. I don't understand how that happens. So my bet. But yeah, yeah. Anyway. So you were saying this goes through the liver and everything. Yeah. So the liver, uh, growth hormone boost by the brain goes the liver, liver makes IGF one that makes you have all these effects. They're peptides that tell your brain to start making more growth hormone. And these are some of the FDA approved peptides. Like Tessa Morlin. Um, Sir Morlin was FDA approved no longer really is on that list. But, um, these peptides are used. So like Tessa Morlin was approved for HIV patients with lipid dystrophy, some HIV patients, they get like this crazy thick waste of fat. And then their legs are very skinny. So that's a lipid dystrophy. It means fat in the wrong place. Essentially. Right. Taking this drug can lower the amount of fat and, uh, increase the muscle mass. Okay. So people now use it off label. That's the key thing. FDA approves it for one thing. But people can prescribe it off label for recovery, for sleep, for better growth hormone production. What are all the pitfalls there? Like, yeah, I mean, you're making more growth. So growth hormone, the big debate is growth hormone pro life extension or is it not? Like, do you live longer as a growth hormone or not? There's a campus that says like growth hormone is the fountain of youth because you feel better on it. Your skin looks better. Your hair is better. Everything's better on growth hormone. In fact, we go through something called somatopause. Somatopause? Yeah. You've heard of menopause. Uh-huh. That happens in the 40s and 50s for ladies. Um, and some guys, uh, that joke. But somatopause happens, um, in your mid 30s, let's say, uh, where your growth hormone production dramatically tanks off. So you start hearingly. I'm not recovering as well. I'm not sleeping as well. They're used to my skin isn't look as good. I can't eat whatever I want anymore. That's somatopause. So the big debate is it, is it, should you replenish your growth hormone? Right? Through either taking a peptide, it makes you make more growth hormone or take growth hormone. Or do you, uh, is biology smarter than you? It's decreasing growth hormone on purpose. You don't develop cancers, et cetera, et cetera. And again, we need way more there's a study to be able to determine which way it's going to break on. Exactly. So, but the problem is like for you and I were in the early 30s, we have to make decisions now, right? And like doing nothing's also a choice. Right. So that's the big debate that people get into. It's like, should I do nothing? Should I get film ordered into and check myself? Yeah. I'm more cautious with that stuff. And, and, and any of these things, like, I have a basic supplement stack and all that. And then I just work out every day. I eat really clean foods. And like, I feel good and my recovery is good. I haven't noticed anything really drop off or something from when I was 22 or 23, especially when I went years there where I was sick and couldn't train and lost everything and then built it back. Like, I feel like there's almost like lost time there. But, you know, I'm also not an idiot. Like, as your body gets older, there are going to be things that like you wake up one day and you're like, I used to be able to do that now as much as you can. And you want to be able to avoid that. But also, I wonder about the curve of just overall technology, not just peptides, to where there's things that are being properly developed. Now, whether it is peptides or a combination of them with other things that you are going to be able to turn back the clock in 10 or 15 years. I think you'll be able to on certain tissues turn back the clock. Okay. Certain tissues not. The problem is that all these very complicated and smarter than we are. And we think we make one trade, but it ends up costing you somewhere else. So I think we have to realize that there's a trade-off to all these different things. And I think that's some like a scientist will get so focused on one pathway. And they think that this is pathways and it'll all be all and it'll change this pathway, right? Not realizing it's causing downstream effects somewhere else. So then that's what you have to kind of zoom out and see what's happening on the whole organism structure. And the way you mentioned it, like I keep mentioning in the 20s, 30s and 40s, you have a lot of these organ systems that kind of tank off, right? Thymes, pineal, your growth hormone production, all these things. So the choices you make now in maintaining your robust health is going to dramatically change the way you age, right? Is it going to make you live to 90 or 100 maybe? But more importantly, it's like how do you live well? Because like the modern life just breaks down your joints and breaks down your insulin resistance capacity. Like all these things break down and we can keep you alive with modern medicine, right? We can extend that life, but it's like what's the quality? And I tell people it's like your goals have never seen internal medicine doctor in the hospital, like your goals to stay out of the hospital for as long as you possibly can and take care of your own health, your own shepherd. And then when you need it, use it and use good medicine, right? Then you got a car accident, got for a bit, whatever it may be, medicine is great. But you should try to avoid the reactions of the medical system as much as possible. So going back to when you were first experimenting with this one, you're like 22, 23 and do a body building. Obviously you were telling me that you're doing squats, dead lives, heavy bench and all that. So you're asking a lot of your body. But you were doing it at an age where like your peptides are operating and your actual internal peptides are operating at the highest level. So what was the benefit or was there not really a benefit in hindsight to adding to it? So maybe 157 is the first one that I experimented with. Had a torn labrum, I have torn my ACL a lot of injuries over the years from the lifestyle we live right? Labrum shoulder, shoulder. No, yeah, yep, yep. I voted that surgery. I voted a lot. It's such a flaring up today fun and stuff. But the day before I popped up, I guess. The shoulder's teeth, look at that. Yeah, yep, yep, yeah, he blew me up. All the flight in I was like, oh, my shoulders feels good. It's the early 30s. But no, it's toward doing bench press like a decade ago. But it's still competed with the torn labrum. It was very limited but it's still competed. You competed. That's wild to me, like doing a heavy bench press, but so you had a you had an anterior anterior slap tear, um, labrum. So I got really good at like avoiding the shoulder out of the bench movement, which is what we're supposed to do. Yeah, but still. Yeah. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. How is you were injecting BP157 into the shoulder? I've been injecting BP177 into the shoulder. That was the first time I ever took BP157 for shoulder injury. So you asked the question, like, don't you have a ton of this peptide? So BP157, let's break down what it is and then we won't why it's considered using it and why people now are considering using it as BP157 is a 15 amino acid peptide chain supposedly found in gut juices. It's supposedly and everyone is like, oh, it's natural. And gut juices. No one's actually shown this to be naturally produced. So where did they get it? There's a scientist in Croatia that, uh, yep, yeah, he's very smart guy. He's like, hey, um, the gut tissue is the most vulnerable part of your body. If you think about it, it's the most exposed surface area. It's too big. It goes through you when you eat something and you can die if you eat the wrong thing, right? You'll have a defense system against this, um, stressor. So he theorizes that there must be some kind of defense mechanism as a researcher called Han Celia that looks and says that during stress, what happens to animals? Their thymus shrinks, their adrenals get big. So they make a lot of cortisol out of their adrenal glands that sit on top of their kidneys and their gut lining gets damaged. Stress does that. So the researchers are like, hey, there must be something in gastric juices that can protect it against this process. BP157. So he finds BPC's a big BPC. So a body protection compound is the big compounds. He says it's $40,000. Now he's never 40,000 what? 40,000, that's the weight of the compound. Okay. Uh, he's never revealed the sequence of that big parent compound. Unfortunately. So questions for him. Um, he's alive. Does he have like a pattern on it? He has a pattern on BPC and he doesn't have to reveal. He, so he revealed what BPC won't have seven, the 15 amino acid chain. He's revealed that those amino acids. We know those very well. So he's not legally required at some point for a drug that, so it's a BPC one for seven has never been approved as a drug anywhere actually. So BPC one for seven, the story goes, uh, and a lot of it is like, is he telling the truth? Is he not? Yeah, BPC one for seven comes out of the assages. He starts and he starts tearing mice, uh, their killies and tearing their ACLs and injecting them with BPC one for seven is like, low and behold, they recover from these injuries, right? A lot of mice data. Like if you got them, like they take some greatest love to these mice, poor things, but they give them BPC, like they burn them. Yeah, they burn the mice of skin and then BPC and the skin will come back. It was bad. Yeah. But the BPC worked for animals. Um, what does it do? Yes, like BPC one five seven seems to be part of the signaling cascade of bringing in blood flow and repair factors to an injured area. So let's say I have an issue in my elbow or something. Yeah. This internally working is far more effective than sticking bio freeze on the outside of my elbow. That is that of the proposition. Yes. So, okay. So like, I have to work two outs. Like as a bodybuilder, proud of your bro, I'm like BPC is amazing. I've had crazy injuries and had great results of BPC. Yeah. Do I just have free killing ability? And I would have healed anyways. Maybe, um, but BPC has been life changing for me on that perspective. As a clinician, then I'm doing evidence-based medicine, all these things, I'm like, ah, we don't have good evidence that it's worked in humans, right? So I'm like, ah, does this work? Does it not? Like, I'm always in this state of disbelief and I think it's a healthy balance to have between the two. So we still don't have good evidence that it works well in humans. We don't have any good human data showing that BPC one five seven improves an outcome for, um, a injury. There's one small study on injecting into people's needs, um, for osteoporosis like 20 people. So not sufficient enough. And it's like a questionnaire afterwards to say like, what was that thing that they were doing? It was revolutionary in like, the late 2000s and early 2010s. I remember like famous athletes, whether it was Kobe Bryant, or I think Chase Utley did it as well to where a lot of guys were going over to Germany to get this therapy and their knees and stuff. What was that? That's PRP. Play live rich plasma. And that's totally different, totally different, but kind of operates the same ideas. Like, how do you get healing factors and blood flow into an area? In fact, like, when I had my ACL surgery, I did both same time, PRP peptides and symptoms. You were loaded up. Yeah. How fast was your recovery from that? I mean, like, it's fine. Yeah, three months in. I was walking into rehab and I was outperforming the people that were like six, seven months out of surgery. There's further setbacks after the fact that kind of suck because that's more of a me than it is the recovery and getting back on to certain workouts. That's kind of wild, though, that like Jim Bros. We're using this back when you were as well, like 2015 and we still can't get like good studies on how effective it is. There's no financial incentive to get a study. There's no financial incentive. Yeah. So the guy who owns the patent, the company, Dr. Sigrich, if the BBC story is real, he's a legend, right? If he's telling the truth about BBC and all the stuff that he's discovered, he's found one of the most marvelous compounds that has ever existed. Imagine he's just sitting in some mansion of Croatia right now. Yeah, exactly. Man, fuck these people. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he's still active at the University of Zagreb in Croatia. The dude is six for the story. Like, there's been journalists from the US now since the peptide crisis has gone up. They've gone over to Croatia and interviewed the guy and he's like, "Hey, this is what happened." He even named it 157 because that's the anniversary of Croatia's independence. The guy is a commuter's country. But the problem is, we don't have an incentive to study because in order to get a drug FDA approved, there's millions of dollars that have to be going to a phase one, phase two, phase three trial to show that it's safe. That's effective and then it works at scale. If there's no financial incentive, no one's going to run that study. So the patent now, there's more than one patent on BPC, one of them is with Teva, the company that makes Adderall, the generic Adderall. They're making so much money on generic Adderall. They don't need to spend money on figuring out BPC. Now, somebody could even impose a huge opportunity for them and they're making money on meth. So there's the problem. BPC-157, let's say like I now, I have a billion dollars, I'm going to go buy the BPC-157 patent and get this 100 million dollars or so to get this FDA approved. What's stopping Joey Deef from selling it online at his website? That's right. BPC-157. Joey Deef.com. Yeah, there you go, right? So any bro online, I think there's 29 new peptide companies that come out every few days. Yep. That's not. So if you're Miami, every kid now has a peptide company. Of course, Miami. All the guys are selling your courses a few years ago. That's like the ground zero patient zero medical fraud, any kind of fraud, but all the crypto bros, they're scamming you now are scamming you on peptides. 100%. So if I'm the pharmaceutical company, why would I even invest this one like every bro is injecting it already? So the best shot is like the government, the government has to say like, hey, look, either BPC-17 is just an amazing drug and millions of people are missing out and we have this aging population with damaged joints that could benefit from this compound or millions of kids are going to inject this anyways and they're going to be harmed by it if it is harmful. And we need an answer ASAP because either one of these situations we don't want happening. Right. So like it's NIH should just spend some money and get the studies done and we should know if BPC-157 works or not. And if it's safe. To also spend people at home are going to be skeptical to like, all right, if you're spending and there's no perfect way to do it. You're spending money on studies. Who's spending the money? Who's running it? What are the incentives for whatever result is wanted and like how real will the day to be? And also like if you're just looking at it now, do you need studies that are done over a 10, 15, 20 year period to really get an answer? Which means we're going to be sitting here in 20, 45. The reality is most drugs are going to prove they don't have that track record. Anyways, like the reality is we are the phase 4 trial. So after a drug gets approved, it goes through phase 4 trial, which they're monitoring people as they get in the community using the drug, right? The problem is a lot of drugs get pulled during phase 4. Like the millions of people use it or hundreds of thousands of people are used and then it gets pulled out. It's not safe. So like we don't have a good process to actually prove that something's safe. There's like assuming, okay, most likely this is safe. But a lot of drugs get pulled and opioids are FDA-approved, bendos are FDA-approved. Like just because something's FDA-approved doesn't mean it's safe. Oh, yeah. I think we've learned that. Unfortunately. Yeah. So like this is my criticism to the medical community. Like I have a lot of criticisms of peptide bros and the medical community. And there needs to be a synergy of how we go forward in between here. Yeah, you seem to have a really nuanced take on a lot of things, which I like. And it's important to listen to that. Because I think the cool thing if you can do this in any kind of topic is can you hold two opposing views in mind and sit with them and let them kind of hash it out? It might be because I don't know if you're knowing Myers-Breg, I'm an ENTP. That's the beta type. So I can have two ideas in my mind. In fact, I'll take the counter position that I don't really believe in the debate. If you can do that, then you actually know the topic well. Fuck yeah. Right. So you should be able to go both sides of a debate and understand what other person is doing. and then you get actually more empathy for those side. So I think we need more of that, but people are so locked in, like the people that are like the fractures amazing and medicine's amazing and peptides are evil are so locked in on their camp. And now peptides are kind of coded in Maha, anti-vax, they're kind of coded in this way. They shouldn't be like, they're not associated with any kind of movement, it's their own thing, right? - Yeah, it should be like the old Bruce Lee quote, take what's good, discard, what's bad, right? - There you go. - And try to separate them out the best. - Exactly. - I think that's a really good way to look at it because it's like, you know, you also don't want to, you don't want to just jump on a craze because it seems really good right now and then have regrets later and be like, sorry, you want to be able to say, hey, here's where the red tape still is and what we got to be careful of and where it could be useful and make the decision at your own risk. - Right, would you help me once, for example, like I prescribe them, I am still worried every day that a new story might come out. A new study shows, G-O-P-1s cause XYZ. And there's some already kind of hints that there's some problems happening, right? - Like what? - Thyroid cancer risks, there's this blindness risk that's come up in certain patients. - Oh, yeah. - Like when we prescribed G-O-P-1s at the VA five years ago, we would have to get an eye exam on the patient to make sure they didn't have a certain disease before they give them the G-O-P-1s 'cause we need G-O-P-1s accelerated that disease. - Right. - Now, if you took it early enough, it would prevent that disease. Just that if you drop a blood sugar so quickly, it can cause worsening of that eye disease, right? So that was a new one's care. You're actually, but now you can go online whether buy it from a research chemical company or go to one of these telehealth pills, say your name. You could say, yeah, my BMI is 19. I'm underway. But like sure, we'll prescribe you as you'll have to do one, no problem. G-O-P-1s is great. So you can just kind of buy your own, you're only your own doctor. Like the doctor stamps the prescription. - But it's, it's not exactly, yeah. - Exactly. So unfortunately that's where we're at. - There's a wild, wild west here. - Both research grade, compounded prescriptions. I think people should have relationships with their doctors. I think it's a good relationship to have the doctor. You trust that you like, that's with it. That can actually look over your supplements back and look over your routine. Nowadays if you go to your doctor and you have something inside like, "Whoa, I don't know what this is. "Don't take this stuff, it's natural." - Right. - It's like, yo, but come on, man. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's a program. - Yeah, you gotta get with the program. But all right, let's stay on this. I just gotta go to the bathroom real quick. We'll be right back. - All right, real quick. We're gonna get back to the black market thing in a second. But Amanda was just showing me, when I stepped out for a second, you're developing an app like customizes all this stuff. How does this work? - Calibrate that day. It helps you calibrate your sugar in clock. So the problem with the sugar in rhythm advice is like very theoretical online. There's a bunch of sun bros that tell you like, "Sun bros, sun bros ain't." They're like, "Hey, sun all day." It was like, okay, but we live lives. Like you have to work and do this things. I'm like, this is how do you customize as best as you can to your lifestyle when you should get exposure to sun, which is block sunlight, block blue light, whatever it may be, which glasses to use using the black out blinds, night shades, whatever it may be to help you sleep better, and build your own customized circadian protocol. And then how to implement that. - Wow, yeah. - Okay, so this is, 'cause also like Amanda was just saying when she was still in here that a lot of this stuff, like you have to pay for right now to get the information, like this could be really helpful. I'm just looking right now for this. - Yeah, our hypothesis is that everything's gonna be free when it comes to apps because of tragedy beauty and all these guys just make that free and then have companies that make products in the space sponsor the apps and force them to actually change the way healthcare is administered. - Yes. - Are you running into any issues with AI leading people down Pathways, and then they come and ask you some questions and you're like, I think that. - AI anxiety, AI protocols at suck. 'Cause AI is not good, it's not Google, like people still don't know how to use AI. We use AI a lot in my practice, both on Mac and apps, but also with patients. And we're using it to have a frame of reference, we give it the studies we wanted to look at. Like for example, look, hey, based on this study, if I could give you this patient's labs, what would you think? Not just give the labs and then let it think on its own, like give it context and then you can kind of take it down to Pathway. But when you just give it open context, it's pulling from everywhere, it doesn't know what it's doing. - And it's a free for all. And it's also grabbing things that are, could be fake studies, could be. - It could be hallucinating studies. - They could be grabbing from websites that are making claims 'cause they're selling a product and then taking that as fact. That stuff scares me for anything. Let alone peptides, you become your own doctor on AI that's still learning. - Exactly. - When eyes are doctor, we'll say honestly, we don't know everything about peptides. And yet the 19 year old peptide bro is selling you stuff. Is that expert? Come on. - Have you seen, you know, obviously don't break patient privilege, anything like that. But have you seen some horror stories with people? - Yeah, where people have to go very, very wrong 'cause they're self-administering these things. - So yeah, I've seen both patients and amongst the Twitter audience or a self-reported, like people will mega-dose red excretide, that's the third generation after the semi-gluetide. - Ozembek. - Ozembek. - Okay. - Mongero red as the next one is gonna come out. - So it's more powerful than Ozembek. - Much more powerful. - What makes it more powerful? - Ozembek has one receptor that activates GLP1. It turns up a tide, it's Mongero and Zep bound, has two receptors, GLP1 and GIP. GIP is another gastric peptide, gut peptide that helps signal them with the set's tidy. - And retrued a tide, is that? - Retrued a trued tide. - They call it redda, 'cause eventually man, you'll all get to talk about it, yeah, it goes hard. Redda is gonna be GLP, GIP, and Google go on receptor. - Okay. - So in English, what does that do? - It makes you lose weight, makes you probably increase breastly metabolic rate too, and probably preferentially load carbohydrates into muscle. That's how bodybuilders are using it. - Sounds like a magic fucking pill. - It's very powerful. But the problem is someone will get a vial, they don't know the dosage, they'll do it too high, they'll end up in the hospital with pancreatitis. Like I've admitted patients to my hospital with pancreatitis, that's a pancreatic inflammation that happens after taking some of these peptides. Some of us, they were taking on protocol, some people were taking it way higher than they should be taking. That's also what I'm thinking, though, is something like that before we even know anything about it. It's like this very new nascent thing. You know, it goes back to that conversation, we were having a little bit ago about the baseline, if you're a diabetic and you need the insulin adding a certain amount, it's gonna do it. If you don't need it and you add it, you hurt yourself. - Exactly. - I don't, again, total amateur here, just from a common sense view, I don't see how that's gonna be a priceless pay. You know what I mean? - Every lunch. - Every lunch. - There has to be something that's wrong there for people doing that. - Yeah. For like, if you're obese, you're 300 pounds. You're gonna develop heart disease. You have three, four wrecks, risk higher of certain cancers. - Trade-offs, there's a bunch of trade-offs and it makes sense for that patient. For whatever risk, maybe there's very little risk from jumping on, maybe it is a godsend, right? It's as good as everyone thinks it's gonna be. Then it would be worthwhile for those people to have taken the drug, even for 30 years, because we just shifted them from getting heart attack at 45. - Right. - The problem, people don't realize this. And they're like, "Oh, the ocean begs not natural." Like, we have to be natural. Like, you don't understand when I'm in the hospital, people are coming in, they're getting their legs chopped off 'cause they won't take their insulin because they're resistant to insulin, their diabetics. They're losing their vision. All these people are very sick in the real world. Like, not this online health space, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So the real world is like, if we can change the trajectory of these people's lives with this drug, it's great. Now, where I'm not comfortable with it is like, you're just sort of fit dude, and you're taking red dots to get lean for summer. - That's right. - I'm concerned about that. 'Cause there's no biological free lunch, and why are we gonna give you a drug and increase the risk of probabilities? And now you're just taking on your own without even consoling the doctor, looking at lab work, doing all these things. Like, before we give anyone any kind of peptide, we want baseline blood work, we want to see where they're at, we want to talk to them about diet and exercise, actually make sure that health protocols make sense. Make sure they're not anorexic, and they're just trying to mitigate their anorexia, you know? - Right? - So, those are the best. - You're also dealing with all kinds of psychological stuff too. - Oh yeah. - You know, and like, that's gotta be, like you understand this more, 'cause you're not fucking 60. Like, you and I, we grew up with the social media, we saw how, in real time, how it changed society, and we're seeing massive changes to how people are constantly looking at their appearance, and stuff like that. Now, and I empathize with young kids coming up who have lived in a world where they're forced to see all their imperfections instead of things that are good. But like, that's gotta be difficult as a doctor where you're supposed to treat things medically or help, and in your case, with your clinic, be able to help people optimize and stuff like that. When you're also dealing with people coming into where you kind of have to play psychiatrists and figure out, like, all right, it's just the internal clock, a little broken by the system here. That's pretty hard. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, the interesting part is too, like some of these EOP1s have psychiatric effects. For example, like, I love drinkers. When they get on EOP1s, they'll drink a lot less or stop drinking. - Really? - Yep. - Yeah. - What's the science? - So it seems like it dampens some of the dopamine response that happens in the brain that comes from the, from the drinking. It decreases appetite in general. Like, even people, all of my patients, like, I'm dehydrated and I'm on EOP1, and I teach, take a lecture, I pack it, and drink some water, right? Like, come on, let's go ahead. - We have to be in a pussy. - Sprinkle some salt and water and drink it, man, come on. But they, they get dehydrated. Like, they don't even want to drink water. Like, they lose their appetite for a lot of things. So there's that factor. It seems like it changes the dopamine transmission in the brain. - How does it do that? - So when someone's on a EOP1, this is the way a patient will describe it. Like, they would see a burger and they'd be like, "Oh my God, this is amazing." In fact, there's some, some likelihood that EOPs people have a heightened response to these kind of things. Where they see a burger, they have more of a dopamine urge response. Like, I got to eat this burger than a lean fit person. So, like, a lot of lean fit people are like, "Oh, they just, they down the burger, bro." It's like, it's not so simple. Like, their brains are misguired. from whatever they've been exposed to. And I'm not saying they have no choice in morale and in this discussion, there's choice still matters, but they're more likely to make the wrong decision based on their genetic predisposition and where they've been in life. Now, when they're on the JLP1 drug, they'll see the same burger that I don't really care. So you've taken away that dopamine or ditch to go get that food. And they talk about food noise. Like, hey, I hear like I need to eat, I need to eat, I need to eat. That's what a lot of like fatter guys will say. - Yeah. - Fatter guys and gals. But when they take on the drug, like, I don't even hear that word anymore. Like, I don't have that constant desire. - That's interesting. - Yeah. So the same thing seems to apply to alcohol beverages. - Now, 'cause also, like, then you hear in a benefit like that and you may see like a lot of people who are alcohol experts. - Yeah. - So like, they're like, oh shit. Can I help me? And then they do. And then what price do they pay for that? It's like, this is where, again, you've been saying it all day, but like the no free lunch thing is something I think about all the time with anything. And that's my biggest fear with this stuff. But like you were also saying, we kinda got off it, people do it in different ways. They'll take stuff that's just like counter and pill form, which as far as in the little research I've done, this is like maybe five, 10% in the potency of like injecting into your system. People injecting stuff that kinda scares the shit out of me. - Yeah, no, it's, and I was like, people have off-sale technique and they get infections and then there's drug reactions. Like all of people take a peptide called MOTC. It's a mitochondrial peptide. It's like MOT-C, MOT-C. Okay, we call it MOT-C. It sounds like a chick, right? But it seems like they call it exercise in a vial. Like you inject it and you get some of the effects of exercise that exercising. It's actually a drug being developed. Like there's, I think it was discovered at USC in California and they're developing into a drug. Bros will take it, post-workout, increase their fat burning or before workout, increase metabolic rate. Now this peptide specifically tends to cause anaphylaxis. - Oh, that's not good. - Yes. So I tell peptide bros, do you have a EpiPen around or are you just gonna be running around? So there's been a number of guys that were like, "Oh, I'm in the ER because I got anaphylaxis to my peptide." - Yeah, I wonder why. - Yeah, exactly. - It's trying to make your body at rest pretend it's not. - Yeah, exactly. - Like is there, even if it's doing some of the functions like fat burning when you're just sitting down and not working out that would be happening if you were physically working out in the gym at the time, it's not a bar for bar or the same thing, right? - It's not the same. It's not the same. Now, where's that interesting? You have a 65 year old that is a veteran that's missing both of the legs. They can't exercise the same way we can. If we can give them a drug to seem like some of the benefits are exercising and then changes person's life, that's cognitive benefits, that's sexual benefits, whatever it may be, that's great. You're 18, bro. Why are you taking-- - Right. - Not see. So that's my concern. The other thing is I think the framework that we like to operate out of is biological restoration. - Biological restoration. - Like the cool thing is biohacking. It's everybody wants to be biohacker, right? I think how can we restore biology to where it's supposed to be? First of all, let's figure out what it looks like on an ideal state, and then how can we restore that? 'Cause we're in this era where the first people to not be malnourished or underfed. Who are right? Good for us. Everyone else for thousands of years had nutritional deficiencies, they never had enough food, they'd starve in the winter. They would lose a lot of their kids because of childbirth problems, because if the baby's had it's too big for the birth canal, both mom and baby don't make it through. That was most people for thousands of years. We have technologies to help you now reach adulthood. Before childhood mortality was very high. Unfortunately, our technologies have made us that were overfed, were obese. We don't have enough of the right nutrients. We have too much of the wrong nutrients. So you're overfed and malnourished. You're stressed out. You're not running your biology at optimal states. So how can we take advantage of this great abundance that we have while still restoring biological systems to an ideal state? That's the goal. Yeah, and it's strange because we've even flipped the paradigm to where, for example, we're the first, as far as I know, I believe we're the first society in human history. Maybe you can check this, Steve, to where there's a larger obesity problem in the lower class, and there is the upper class, whereas food always tripled down from the top to bottom in the past. But it's in the defense of like people of lesser means as well, and getting obese. It's because we've created the most affordable foods as the most processed shit ever. I deep took me to a McDonald's the other night for the first time in fucking 20 years. I'd not been inside one of those places. Don't ask me how that happened. It was a road trip. It is what it is. But like the next day, when I was working out, I mean, my whole, it wasn't even in my head when I was doing it. But I was like halfway through my work. I'm like, God, what I feel like shit today. And I was like, oh, that's right. We can fucking ate it McDonald's last night. I'm like, there's a lot of people who like survive off eating stuff like this, because even though they don't have a dollar menu anymore, it's still cheaper than like buying fucking fruits and vegetables. - Yep. Yeah, forging good meats, fruits and vegetables, you know, having time to exercise. - Yep. - Like most people, they're starting their job. They can't exercise at 6.45 a.m. Like good for us. We are excited as much, but a lot of people don't have that luxury even to have the time. Like the fun part, I say like sunlight's the freest thing, but it's also the most expensive. Because it's free to do, but it's so expensive, you have to kind of rearrange your life around it. And our life is designed to keep us indoors away from the sun. - Yes. - So it's the freest air everybody but also the most expensive. So a lot of these companies now are trying to bring sunlight inside with certain light devices. It's a little red light therapy craze. All these things are trying to simulate a very free thing and commoditize it into an internal. - Yeah, but you also, like you can't recreate that. Like I have the sky windows here. That's awesome, 'cause I get more natural light in during the day. Like this, good for you. But like it's not, when I stand on my sky window in the morning, it's not the same. 'Cause there's the window when it's a refracting light. - Yeah, and it's blocking certain wavelengths too. Like the problem is, a lot of the red gets fat filtered out. The blue comes in, the UVA comes in. So if you see the truck driver that has the damage phase. - No. - So there's a truck driver, there's a famous truck driver case study where the guy is like his half his face, super-age, and half his face is not. And both sides of the sun debate use it for their own benefit. So if we, yeah, this dude. - What the fuck did he just go out? We lost his screen. I've never seen this before. - This is kind of crazy. - So you'll see, he's on every antisan person. Every person will use the same picture to argue their points. It's kind of funny how humans are. - Wow. - So this guy is a truck driver. So the left side of his face, which is on the right side of the screen, is dramatically over-aged compared to his right side of the face. - Where the window is. - Yes. And they're like, oh, it's 'cause of the sun. But also it's not just the sun. When the sun comes to the window, it blocks the infrared that kind of protects your skin from damage from UV. And it allows through the blue light and the UVA that's more skin damaging. In fact, if an AI now swings your face, it can tell you which phone you tend to hold your, which side your phone you hold it in. So if AI screens your face, it can look at like, hey, you hold your phone your right hand because your right side is a little bit more aged. 'Cause blue light's not good for your face. So when people are doing a red light therapy, they're just supplementing for the lack of sunlight. Have you just got it for free? Like especially the first hour and a half of the day, it's free red light therapy. But this guy's face is over-murrorous on UV on that side and under-nurse in infrared, he ends up having the photo-age effect. - That's one of wild images I've ever seen. I've never seen it before. - Yeah. So sun makes sense, be smart about it. And the other thing I tell people is like, your sun dose depends on your genetics and where you're from. Like if you're from Ireland and you're red head, you don't need that much sun. - You don't need that much sun, or you've just not been as exposed to an evolutionary over time and your body just adjusted. - Yep, so you need a little bit about it. Like you wouldn't get UV light. So like UVB is what makes vitamin D. And it's only produced your round underneath the 33rd parallel. So let's say Las Vegas down. - Interesting number. - Yeah, right. - All right. - I think it's a number where I'm thinking about some of your conspiracy episodes, all right? - Yeah. (laughing) - Right, but so in New York from, in New York New Jersey, all these places are from, let's say September to March, you can't really make vitamin D from the sun, as effectively as you would in the summer. - That's right. - Yeah. - In California, you can do your round. So if you're in Ireland, your body's adapted to that. But if you're from the sub-Saharan Africa, you need hours of sunlight a day probably. 'Cause your body's adapted to that sun exposure. - And that's also where obviously we're skin colors coming in. - There you go. The more, like melanin is your natural sunscreen. So if you're a red head, you don't have that much melanin. You don't have that much sun screen. If you're darker, you have a little bit more to say. Thank you. - You make of the recent research that some of it, to me seems to be pretty compelling about, maybe some of the opposite effects, if you will, of sunscreen and some of the bill that's been sold on that over the years. - I think, new ones approach is best. Sunscreen is oversold, I think to people. We'll become sunphobic, like sunscreen sunglasses, both. We need a certain amount of UV light to hit our skin in our eyes. - Just don't overdo it. - Don't overdo it, dose it properly. Animals are a very good example. You take your dog outside, your dog runs in the sun. It's in the sun for a little bit. As soon as he feels comfortable, he walks right back into the shade. So we can be smarter animals. We're the only animals in the sun that burns for fun. If you're in the sun, get out of the sun, go in the shade. If you're lighter, scan your more likely to burn. You can be strategic, cover your face up with some natural zinc oxide sunscreen. Top of your hands, you know, eight photoage, but get the sun everywhere else. - You don't, you don't, what? - Photoage. - Photoage. - So as you get damaged from light, and the shorter the wavelength, the more damaging it is. Remember when we were talking about that wavelength? - Sure. - So like wavelengths that are 600 plus in the red and infrared zone tend to be beneficial for skin. In fact, after the size of using red light, to protect the skin, rejuvenate the skin, and actually use it as a sunscreen. So red light is a sunscreen, if you do it early enough in the day. - Interesting. - And that's why naturally the morning sunlight is very rich in red and has no UV. So if you get morning sunlight, you'll protect it against the UV later on. - Oh, that's cool. so cool. And on top of that, you know, that golden hour, the last part of the day is no UV. It's the rich and infrared. So you can kind of repair some of the damage that's happened from the UV during the day. The virus is the same as the cure. There you go. That's nuts. So getting sun appropriately, circadian appropriate to your skin color appropriate is what needs to be done. To restore circadian rhythms, to restore mitochondrial health, to make vitamin D, to submit them on a coordinate system. Like a lot of the peptides actually stimulate the receptors that sun is supposed to stimulate. How did they do that? So there's receptors in the brain called the melanocortines. Melano-cortines. Melano-cortines. Melano. Okay. They control your skin color, but they also determine appetite, feeding, and sexual function. Oh wow. Why? Because mammals need to be dosing those things inappropriate to the in response to the season. You have different fertility as a mammal, depending on the season that you exist in. For example, most humans are born in July and August, on average, August. Pembert, depending on what part of the world you're from, that's not by coincidence. Before birth control, there was still a time when people were more fertile and people were less fertile. In fact, my grandma has 11 kids. Her first one and last one were born on the same day. That's interesting. So either that's a big fluke or she was more fertile than you know, it's not because they weren't using protection. So I always just thought I had to do with where in the menstrual cycle. It is like the 28-day period of obviously an ovulation. They're more likely to be able to produce. Yeah, but let's say they ovulate the implantation is more likely in a better hormonal milieu and the spring quality gets better. All the things that are more optimized at certain times. So there's this thing called the skin brain gonatal axis. -Gonatal axis. -Gonatal. Skin brain gonatal axis, essentially saying that there's a connection between your skin, getting UV light, your brain stimulates melanocortin receptors, and turning on your gonads, your testicles, or your ovaries. -To be able to shoot the biggest load. -Exactly. -Wow. -It's the guy, obviously. -Yes. And for the girl, you get more fertile. So a lot of my patients, I'll send them on a vacation, like hey, and for study problems, let's go on a vacation, get some sunlight, kind of lower the stress level. That's going to be therapeutic. Of course, you see a facility specialist. Have you any one? -Yeah, now the stress part is big. -It's big. -Okay. Now that makes some sense too, because it's natural, like you're getting more sunlight, you're out in nature, your cortisol drops from that, because I fully believe that before, beyond just like sexual function and ability to repopulate and stuff, like stress kills, fucking everything that touches. -Yep. And there's a book called "Why Zebra's Don't Get Ulcers." -Why Zebra's Don't Get Ulcers. -Yes. Because you see a zebra and lion chasing them. They run away. One zebra gets eaten, lion takes the zebra. Ten minutes later, they're chilling. They're back to where they were. -We're in Krip Walk, and it's great. -We are acting like we're being chased by lions 24/7. We're even more asleep and we're running, and then you're taking redder, redder jacks, your heart rate makes you anxious too. So everyone's growing up in a very wound up state. -Yes. -So this is the problem that happens. On top of that, we're manufacturing cortisol for things that don't need it. Yes, but I mean social media does good with cortisol, because the more anxious you are, the more likely you are to spread something, because fear porn is a thing. -Of course, of course. -So it incentivizes fear porn. But you do not get the satisfactory result of having fucking just booked it away from a lion and not getting eaten and come down from that as you do from going, "Fuck you, die, because you disagree with me, sin." -Yes, exactly. And you wouldn't do that if you saw that person in person. You wouldn't do that. -Most people would not. That's right. Some people are narcissistic, pathological people, but most people are pretty reasonable in person. But here's the other thing. God biology, whatever you believe, put the stress response, ACTH, the hormone that from the brain tells you your adrenals to make cortisol, and MSH, the hormone that makes you darker, but also controls sexual function for totally all these things, on the same protein. They're pep- they're both peptides cleave on the same protein in the brain. And I don't think it's a mistake, because the way the way it's supposed to work is that you supposed to see light make cortisol wake up, go in the sun, you make MSH, so you can make melanin to protect you from the effects of the sun. And then those both drop as sun sets, you go to sleep, you have sexual function, because it's funny that peptide kicks in like 10 hours later. -10 hours later. -So the pharmaceutical companies have made this peptide in injection, and we'll talk about that. But midday sunlight, if you think about it, days you've been on the beach, you spend all day on the beach on the in the sun, in the water. You'll have great sleep at night, very vivid dreams, and most people report a boost in sexual function. -I never thought about that. -Keep an eye on it, and you report back. -Just doing that, a couple weeks ago, I didn't even think about that. -So like, the most guys were like, "Oh yeah, my morning woods back." -Just going to the beach. -Yeah, just kind of chilling out a little bit, but also the UV exposure. So what happens is there's an MC3R and MC4R receptors in the brain. These receptors control libido. In fact, there's a drug called PC141, a valetcy. It's an FDA-approved drug for ladies that have hyperactive sexual desire disorder and perimen-buzzle woman. This drug, guys and girls take it. If you take it, you will have the craziest erections, the craziest libido, if it works. -What's your drug called? -PC141. -PC141. -Yeah. People out there getting that PC141 right now. -No, no, no, no, no. Here's the problem. If you underdose it, nothing really happens. If you overdose it, you're nauseous and you're throwing up. So it's a very small window. You get it right. You're like, you know how animals go into heat. -Into what? -Into heat. You'll have a. I had a pet bird and we didn't have the female and the male together. So the female was in heat. She needed to copulate. And she started pulling out her feathers because she needed the male. -Right. -Exactly. She needed to get digged down. But it wasn't happening. So she. But you can essentially turn on heat with a peptide or it's on light exposure. -You're tempted in some people right now. -Oh yeah. I mean, it's an I have to prove drug for this indication. -What's it called again? -PC141 or. -PC141. -Premilanetide. -Is it some hard names? -I know. -I know. -Fun intended. -No, I mean, yeah, it works very well. But the problem is you don't know when it's going to kick in either. You can kick in right away. -Don't try it at home, folks. -You have to press Crips and do it the right way and look at the guidance of a doctor. But when it works, it works. The problem is like, one time I got to prescribe to test this out. I like to test things out before I give it to patients. There's snow. What's going on with it? You take the drug. It didn't really kick in. I'm like, oh, I'm young and healthy. I guess I just don't do anything from me. I'm a much of a man. You know what I'm saying? 10 hours later, I'm going to have a six hour flight and it kicks in. -Oh, no. -And it kicks in. -Am I a check next to you? -No, it's not a. -It would be a problem. It was a problem. Thank God it wasn't. It's the whole flight. I'm like, you're hard to hold flight. I'm like, oh, shit, it's bad. This is bad. But it's an effective compound. Let's step back. Why are people having underestimulated melanocorn systems because they're indoors all day? They're not getting the UV exposure. So that's why that skin brain gonadal access. It shows you that animals and humans, when they get more sun exposure, they get more sexual passions. -Make total sun. -What the study says. Do you believe in that? -It's gonadal, not galangel. -Gonadal? -Yeah, it'll help you. -G-O-N-D-A-L. -He'll grab that. Do you believe in a creator like God? -Yes, I'm Muslim, sir. Is that something you ever went back and forth on at one point in question, or have you always been consistent on that? -To go back to your first question is why I got to medicine. The moment I saw about all these text books, I'm like, this has to be designed. So when I'm studying this stuff, it's like I'm having conversation with God, looking into the industry at this structure. The fact that the melanocorn system, the stress system are on the same peptide, I don't know, that wasn't a chance. -I totally agree that the more you look at the layers of life, whether you're looking at it medically, or you're looking at how nature works and everything, something like evolution has certainly happened, and I think we still have a lot more to do with the science on that. But the flickering of the flame that gets all the patterns started and operating at a high level, something powerful had to build that. -100%. -Had to. It's so cool. And every time you've said something today where it's like in this thing, which also happens to correlate with this thing, and it's in the same spot of real estate in your body, you're just like, God damn it. And the problem is, as you go deeper down, complexity increases. So that shows you there's more design. Theoretically, from Darwin's first principles, it should get simpler as you go down, and complexity comes out from life as life goes further out, but cells are more complex than us in many ways. -That's right. -So as you go deeper down, it's more complex, atoms are very complex. So I think that's a sign of design. -For sure. Now we have this pulled up deep. -Yeah, so like that picture right there would go with natal access. -With the second one from the left, yeah, that one. -What am I looking at here? -So this is the summary of the study. Skin brain gonon access. If you go down a high resolution right below the picture, boom. Here we go. -Okay, so unexposed on the left, UVB/solar exposed on the right. You want to explain the rest of that? -Yeah, so what winds up happening is they took animals and they took humans, and they showed that the unexposed skin, in both men and women, I'm sorry, they exposed skin in both men and women. You had odor cues, you make more fermones, testosterone levels go up in males, romantic passions go up, aggression goes up, and then in females, they're more attractive. So the female mice that were supposed to sound like were more attracted to male mice as it was all being exposed to sunlight. Part of that's probably from fermones, but there's also probably other factors that go in there. -Wait, I'm sorry. The females were more attracted to the males. -They were more attractive. -More attractive to the males. -Yeah, okay. Yes, so it's as if the meal might it's sniff out which female had gotten suddenly exposure or not. - Right. - There were more, so the females were more receptive sexual interactions. Their estrus incidence increased, they're more fertile. - Right. - And they had more follicles. And then they showed you how that works. It's going from the brain, that makes GNRH, to the petrature, that makes LHNFSH, so they're going ads that make-- - Wait, like more hair follicles? - No, follicles in the ovaries to make embryos. - Got it, okay. - And the females, they noticed that the romantic passions went up. - Yeah. - And we have an FDA approved drug for the same thing, just like they just drugged sunlight and essentially put it into a vial. - That's the other thing, man. It's like, the more we come up with stuff like this, whether it's peptides or any of these other things, we're getting, you know, I'm all for innovation. I'm all for also learning, like, let's make sure we're doing it right, and you know, we're not robbing Peter Paypal, that kind of thing. But I do think a lot, in many contexts, about some of the technological power we now have in mankind and where we can play God with things. And I know you have to think about this a lot, but I worry about that sometimes, because it's a little bit of garner eating shit, you know, you eat that fruit suddenly, you know some shit that maybe life was better that you didn't know before. - Yeah, it's bliss. - Yeah. - Yeah, and the problem is like, even in doctors, like cardiac surgeons, neurosurgeons, and have God complexes, 'cause they're like, I have your heart in my hands, I control your life exactly. So then they have those complexes that develop as a result, of course God humbles everybody, eventually. But no, the thing is like back to the peptides conversation, like this peptide is a specific peptide that acts as a specific receptor, so it has clear benefits, clear risks. The peptides are more interesting, I would say, are the rushing ones, 'cause they help restore natural function, is what they're purported to do, and there's actually a good human data on them. - There's a lot of you on these? - Vladimir Kavinson. - No, no, no, no, Vladimir Putin. - Oh yeah, so Vladimir Kavinson, put up a picture of Vladimir Kavinson, Vladimir Putin. He got an award. (laughs) - No, really, no, no, you're after this award, this guy was axed. - Interesting, no, we got it after this one, this one brings in. - You'll give me the wrong peptide. - Yeah, you're done. - With Hib, what's his name? Vladimir. - Kavinson, K, A, V, I, N, S, O, N, was Poon's. - He's got it. - So we got a pick of this? - Oh yeah. - And he's dead now. - He died a year after this picture, which is like, they're like, oh, a natural cousin. - He got an award on him. - Yep. - It's like, yeah, I'm gonna pin this bull in your fucking heart, too. - So Vladimir Poon was getting, was known for years to get drugs from this doctor. (laughs) - This doctor created like 20, 30 different supplements and drugs. - I wonder, remember when they were, and we speculated about two, 'cause we were seeing the videos, people were speculating out there at the beginning of the war that Putin was deathly sick, because there would be videos of him shaking and holding onto the table and shit. - Right. - I wonder if he got like a bad dose or something. - Yeah, so like, there's a whole conspiracy like why did Dr. Kavinson die? Like, he was very healthy. His parents both lived to 90s. He's on the peptides. Like, I think he's mid 70s, but looks pretty good. Function's pretty good. It was a very perfect researcher. Now, the weird part is, - Look at that guy's irresist. - Hit that third picture. He's got them Lindsey Clancy irresist. - Yeah, yeah. - Some big motherfuckers, saucers. - Well, working with people and it's not probably easy. But no, the crazy part is, it's effective, like the Ukraine war affected my practice dramatically because, so Dr. Kavinson invents that thymaline drug we were talking about earlier. He's the one that made that up in the 70s. They used it first astronauts and pilots and submarine operators, Submariners in the Soviet Union. What happened, these guys, when they'd been in space or they'd be under water for six months, they age faster. And he called it premature aging syndrome. 'Cause when you cut off from circadian rhythm and you're getting radiation exposure to your chest, you're damaging your thymus, they'd age faster. He created two drugs, epithelamine, which is, it makes epithelon. It's a pineal gland extract that he harvested down and injected into people. And thymaline, which was a thymus extract that he grinded down and injected into patients. And he could supposedly, according to our Soviet law, restore the health of these young men. So this becomes like a national security thing for the Soviet Union. And they use this drugs. He makes another drug for the eyes 'cause they're word that the US government has lasers to shoot into. - Freaking laser beams. - Yep, yep, that's funny. I always comes up. Now, thymaline was being produced for very cheap. It's like 15 bucks a bottle. It's a very effective peptide. It's approved in Russia as a drug. So it's not like some research chemicals. It's actually a approved drug. Because of the war, the factory that makes that shut down. So no, I can't even access this medication. For myself or whoever I want to give it to. Yeah, yeah. So unfortunately, war's effect, health too. - Yeah, so we're like missing research there. Or research opportunities there now too. - Yeah, 'cause the fall of Soviet Union really slowed down Russian innovation. Like the Russians came up with a peptide and non-peptides, a lot of coal components, bromantane, bementel, like all these cool. And there were the ideas like how can you increase capacity in human being? To work harder, to be in space, whatever it may be. Unfortunately, we lost a lot of that when Soviet Union fell. Not the Soviet Union was great, so it was horrible. But the, Dr. Kappa's complaint's like, oh, once the pharmaceutical companies came in, they didn't take my research seriously. They didn't believe in this biological restoration concept. - Yeah. - So, but now, like for a lot of my patients, there's a peptide that he developed called epitalon. It's four amino acids. Unlike the GLP ones or PT-141 or the growth hormone peptides, like really jamming on our receptor and turning something on, it kind of just works in the background. Remember the Fimilins peptide? It like activates genes and like turns on DNA. This one epitalon is from the pineal gland. So we naturally make it and that's been pretty much confirmed. And when you take it, it increases your nighttime melatonin production. - So it helps with sleep. - Yes. And it increases your daytime cortisol. - Increases your daytime cortisol. - Yes. - At a certain part of the day, like in the beginning of the day. - Which is what you want. - You don't want it at night. - Yes. - So epitalon helps restore the circadian architecture that exists. - So when it increases your morning cortisol, does that also have an extension effect of therefore decreasing your later in the day cortisol? Because it's like overloading it at the beginning. - Yeah. - What's it supposed to be? - So like emerging data suggests that if you have the higher peak of cortisol, you get a better kind of trail off effect. - Interesting. - The problem is most of us wake up. We don't get bright light. We're kind of indoors, we have foggy brains. Our cortisol's not high enough. It takes us two, three hours to have the drink, three expressions just to get that cortisol spiked up. Then you stay high cortisol all day, two lanes at the night and then you can get good sleep. And then the cycle just perpetuates itself. What we should have is really high cortisol. You should jump out of bed and you should be pretty charged up. And if you get sun exposure, you get colder in the morning. You work out all these different things that can help circuit set the circadian clock. You'll notice you'll wake up before your long clock and you're pretty sharp. - A lot of times that'll happen. I'll wake up 10, 15 minutes before. I like, I drink a lot of water in the morning. That's the thing, like once I do that within about six, seven minutes of waking up, that's when I'm really there. But I haven't, I've been working out at the same time now for a long time since, basically since I made that lifestyle shift three years ago. But I have not used caffeine of any sort. I've not had anything but water before I work out over the last three years. And things have been great, you know? And I think there's something to be said for like resetting the circadian rhythm that probably like in a lifestyle where I still have way too much cortisol and other parts of the day that we got to figure that out. Like at least like in the morning, there's some sort of better system than I would have had four years ago, waking up at fucking 10 a.m. after going on night. You just waking up like shit every single day. Yeah, and then I think this strategy is we can employ for you, even specifically like certain lightweight links you can get before your workout to boost that cortisol spike and boost the performance in the workout. Like we got the sunwalk after the workout today. In the winter time, you could probably get sun before, actually in the summer time you get sun before and the winter sun probably comes out like a closer to seven. So it's hard to do that, but you can, like in my hotel room today, I had a device that I use, it's written rich 480 nanometer light that. - Oh, you have one of those. - I travel with one. Oh, let's go. And then I turn it into orange yellowish mode. So then I, I said using the hotel lights, I used that light. Now that's the shit that's cool to me. That's the type of optimization shit that's really cool. 'Cause you're restoring biology. Yes. You're not trying to like be some play god and be smarter than that's around you. You're like giving the biological inputs that your body needs. Simple habits, it's not overdoing it. It's in the background. Yes. Just make it at, yeah, I like that. Yeah, like some of these peptides, like the ones I like, I think eventually people are gonna stick of injecting themselves. They're gonna wanna go back to like take things naturally. And a lot of these peptides already do if I arrive from organs. So, you know, I used to scoff at this idea. There's the idea of organic therapy. Like if you have a liver problem, take a liver, right? And I was like, oh, these, these naturopaths are so weird. But it turns out like Dr. Kevin's work shows that in the liver, it's not that the liver itself is good for your liver. There's liver peptides, ovegin, livigin, in the liver that then can go back and signal certain positive aspects. - You're gonna replenish. - You're gonna replenish these peptides. - Yeah. - So I have to tell them for sleep. There's the thymus peptides for the thymus. There's peptides for the eye. The most impressive one was retinolamine, which is extractive from cow eyes. They ground on retinas from cows, injecting into humans. And they've actually shown you can reverse like retinitis pigmentosa, which is a genetic predisposition to blindness. - Whoa. - Yeah. - So like, it's nine severe cases. So like, but Dr. Kevin. - But in some cases, they can show that they're making progress in the other door. - So this is an approved drug in Russia. And we don't use it here at all. all in the United States besides some biohackers. What we should be doing, so we should have an agency in our government that looks like, "Hey, what are everyone else doing in the world? Let's take their stuff." And then test it and see if it works. - Sure. - And then if it works, great, if it doesn't. - That would make too much sense though. - 'Cause we spend millions of dollars on research, on stuff that doesn't matter. Like grasshopper, cricket noises at night. Like there's a research grant for that. It's like, dude, let's get people healthier. - Gain of function research. - We've been not even spending my own Gain of function research. That is a driving, all right. Well, why is COVID a little bit similar to HIV? I don't know. - Yeah, that might be a little interesting. - Maybe the same guy was working on both. - Yeah, it's like, why does COVID infect the thymus? What other virus infects the thymus? Oh, look at that, they all tied together. - I mean, my coming to God moment was, when I opened up a study about thymus, this is a study of in the late 80s. And I'm going through the study. I like to look at the references, like who's been referenced in the first reference in the study was one Anthony Fauci. - You just like the last, chas commentary in the last scene of, kind of a fucking usual suspects, like, oh my God, there he is. - Yeah. - He's like, whoa, is it literally a paper from like '86? And he's the first citation on that study. I was like, whoa, this is, that's kind of dark. Dr. Cavantan's up in a ditch. Dad, no one's really talking about thymus. I was like, oh, is that by design? - But a design. - Because like, there are strategies that you use to theoretically replenish the thymus. Like, first of all, you don't want to aid you faster, which I think we've done in the last five years. Peptides, different growth hormone strategies that you use on thymus. But we should be investing heavily in this because I'm concerned that this generation that grew up with the weaker immune system is going to be very non-resilient, not resilient in the next five to 10 years. - Oh, I agree. It's just evolution. Like, it's just the most, it makes all the sense in the world because even like you were saying earlier, relating it to the medical field, the things that not saying it was ever smart to do it. But when they could do longer shifts, fuckin' 30 years ago and for some reason, they were okay at the end and now slightly shorter shifts, like, guys are not okay at the end of it. I think that's biology rather than like, the human fuckin' effort, if you will. - Yeah, I mean, like a lot of people that are trying to get through it, like we'll be taking testosterone, I don't know, I'm gonna have to know whatever it is to like be able to get on higher workloads. - Uh-huh. - So it's like, is that the answer or should we have more? - Yeah, you shouldn't have to take substances to do something that was previously completely possible. - Exactly. - Like, you can optimize it and change it over time because you have the luxury of doing that. But when it's out in necessity, 'cause it's like, wow, humans can't do what they used to do, that should be a fear. - Exactly. - What do you think the biggest lies you've seen about peptides going around are? - So let's take it from both perspectives. From the anti-peptide and propeptide crowd. The propeptide crowd says these are natural and therefore there's no side effects, like your body just makes them. So your body makes insulin. If I give you the wrong dose of insulin, you'll be dead. That's a 100% kill shot. So no, just because they're natural doesn't mean, the testosterone's natural. You make the testosterone, stomach, your blood right now. If I inject you a lot of this testosterone, you're gonna change. Because it's natural doesn't mean it's safe and effective. And especially not safe, necessarily could be effective, but the safeness depends on when, where and why. - Right. - Otherwise, there's like no human data. So what's happened is, for example, like BBC577, there's no good human studies randomized control trials. Well, we just thought we were in, since 2017, there's been millions of doses of BBC577 prescribed by doctors to patients through compound pharmacies. Compound pharmacies, that's not your Walgreens and your right aid in these guys. These are pharmacies, they're specialty pharmacies that make certain compounds for the demand of the patient. Right. So millions of doses have been administered and we haven't seen this crazy signal of harm. There's a work, we don't know. But we should take more time to see that. - We could take more time. That same with any drug, though. That's why I'm like, if we're gonna use any compound, we should be very confident that the benefits really make sense. So people are like, I'm just trying out this peptide this month, like, what are you doing? Like, take it easy, let's be smart about this. We should be trying to restore biology, or we can. And especially because now, younger guys, they wanna jump on test, GH, peptides, to get jacks. - People really young are talking about this whole like, I don't even know how it worked, but like, replacing the testosterone, you gotta go get injections and stuff like. - Yeah, creams and injections of pills, if people are like 20 years old talking about this. - Yeah. - What the fuck are you doing? Like, I did a podcast with my friend Santa Cruz. I'm like, bro, you should be, you're 20 years old, you have peak levels right now. Why don't you have peak levels? Is the bigger question instead of trying to replace them. I think people don't have sufficient puberty. - They don't have sufficient what? - Puberty. Like, their peak of their puberty wasn't sufficient enough to drive masculization. - Right. - They're in front of blue lights all day. They're gooning till 3am. They're not eating good foods. They're not competing. Like, young guys were playing football and wrestling, and they're competing with other men. So if you look at like, 1980s football team. - You have two hundred percent. - From high school, if I'm 28, if I'm 20, 25, I was like, whoa, these guys are ready. - So that's a man. - Exactly. - Just like what the fuck happened here. - Exactly. So something's wrong. Something's wrong. - Something's wrong. - And the problem is like, no one's sounding the alarm bells. Like, any problem? It's like, no, the levels aren't lower. I'm like, bro, just look at, look at, like-- - Yeah. - My drive with the doctors is like, I'm not going to suspend what my eyes see, just because there isn't a study yet that proves that. Like, I can examine the world and look what's going on. - Yeah. - So it's the behavioral finance. But, I can make hypotheses. - Be like, that's weird. Let's look at that. - Yes. - Yeah. - And we're going to find this out 20 years later. It was like, oh, it was the microplastics. Or it was the blue light, or it was the junk food. Or whatever it was, guys aren't developing, right? - 100%. - And fertility rates are lower. Like, all these things are happening. It could be starting from before conception, even. Like, one of the mom and dad aren't healthy enough. It could happen during. There's been studies where like, microplastic exposure to a pregnant lady causes the anal, scrytle distance to decrease. - Yeah, yeah. - But what's that lady's name? - Sean. - Sean. - Sean. - I have her book. It's really good. - She's been on Danny's show a couple of times, Danny Jones. And I think she's been on Rogan. - Yeah. - On some noise too. - Sean is swan. Swain. - Something like that. - Something like, yeah. - Yeah, I read her book. - Sean is swan. - Yeah, yeah. Her book's all about that. - And it's not to be funny. Like, it's legit. Like, the-- - An animal measurement of the taint is decreasing at a rapid rate. - Yep. - Cross generation. - Guys have longer taints than girls. - Yeah. - It's a problem. And the weird part is, as we break the separation between day and night, we break the separation between male and female. What I mean is, girls are starting to get PCOS in these conditions where they're making more testosterone and andredins and they're becoming more masculine-lust. And guys are making less testosterone, more estrogen, becoming more feminized. - That feels like such a fucking plan, dude. I'm sorry. My head goes there. It's like, you see all these things happening. You see all the inputs that you are. You just described a bunch of them. Now fucking every male, including me and you, apparently, have microplastics in our balls. That wasn't a thing 60 years ago. And it's such a litany of things that you have to wonder if there's some sort of weird dystopian fucking plan at the top to change this. It's even psychological warfare. You're making women and men hate each other online. Are you team Lindsay or are you team fucking don't kill your kids? Like, that's where we're at now. They make us fight over this. - Yep. - It's very monetarily good for them, but more importantly, people ask me, what's your favorite study you've read? One of the most important studies I read in 2015 was circadian photo reception, influences, loss of virgin. Sounds like whatever. - Circadian photo. - Reception, influences, loss of virgin, which sounds like what the hell is this guy talking about? - Yeah. - They took two groups of people, one group in a blue light and rich group, one group in a regular room. A group of us more blue light and rich men was more likely to keep gambling. - Oh, wow. Circadian photo reception influences loss of virgin. - Okay. - What's that saying? When your circadian photo reception is altered, you're more likely to gamble, essentially. - Gambling behavior, I'm reading the abstract, is persistent and growing societal problem. An unexplored factor that may encourage gambling behavior is the impact of circadian photo reception on cognitive processes underlying the behavior, by the way, of where do people gamble these days? - Exactly. We investigated the influence of circadian photo reception on loss of virgin gambling, by altering the blue content of light while maintaining the same visual brightness, holy shit. 15 participants, 18 to 27 years, completed an economic decision-making task under blue, enriched, and blue depleted light of equivalent visual brightness on separate occasions in a randomized order. The task required participants to choose between taking a risky gamble of a positive and negative outcome or a less risky guaranteed outcome, hierarchical, Bayesian modeling was conducted to drive individual parameter estimates for loss of virgin and trial by trial performance was analyzed using linear mixed models. The findings demonstrated that individuals were significantly, use the word significantly, less loss of verse under blue and rich light compared to blue depleted light. Whoa. - So that's the cost of years of this model, that's all the models is like, hey, you're under blue all day, you're more likely to keep gambling. - I got to say this, man, so there was, you know, I've been really undercapitalized with brand deals on the show, which some of that's my fault and stuff, but like, we've been trying to do more over the last couple years. And there were a handful of ads we did with, we were like two or three with draft kings, and then a handful over, I don't know, mostly a one-year period with prize picks. And I don't have that gene, whatever that is, that wants to make you go about $5 or more of the dogs going to take a shit. But, you know, I didn't really think about it a ton. And then I thought about, like, friends I know who have that gene, maybe because of things like this, by the way, the, you know, news alert there, where they have to do it. And I've seen people get so lost in it. And I thought to myself, I was like, do I want to read an ad that then is going to activate the crackhead in someone to take out their crack dealer right here and fucking gamble, fuck that. publicly split. with gambling ads like back in April or May. - If you guys, it's not like-- - And like, we won't fucking do it. We won't touch Polymark. - Yeah. - We won't touch any of this stuff. Again, though, this is another thing I'm pointing to that it's like, if you wanted to fucking drive the population in on itself, make a bunch of young people addicted to shit like this so that they're losing their ass, they're getting depressed. They're high quarters all the time. They're not fucking out there dating and procreating and shit like, it just feels that way. - Yeah, no, and then you see Jack Cruz on Danny Jones's podcast? - Of course, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, that was a good one. He goes into the story about this. Apparently, according to Dr. Cruz, it starts with the mafia bosses in Vegas. They set up the Vegas Casinos to be blue light and rich, no windows, strippers, alcohol, take your money. - Wow. - So the problem is, if you just restore a lot of these biological processes, you wouldn't need all these peptides. You wouldn't be obese in the first place, because if it influences loss of version when it comes to gambling, what does it do when you're choosing what food you're gonna eat? - 100%. - So that people are like, "Oh, it's their choice." They're fat because their choices have been changed by artificial means. And some people are more sensitive, less sensitive. There's a gene on that photo receptor that they're talking about that can predict if someone can get sad, the seasonal factor of disorder. And those people are more likely to respond to bright light therapy lamps. And they apparently, in my practice, respond very well to epitalan. So you can bring on peptides, orally, inject whatever it is as a support tool to bring somebody back to where they need to be. I think we've gone to this humanism, next generation thing, anti-god world, where like, "Hey, let's be smarter than God "and push evolution forward." - Right. - Which I don't like that. - I'm all for innovation. Like if we can restore people's function, improve people's lives, that is great. I don't think we need to be so anti. - Yeah, I hope people listen to you on full podcasts like this and get the context. 'Cause it's really useful. Because if people just looked at you on the surface, they might put you in a box or something, or say you're trying to do more of this. I find that the way you're looking at this is with the appropriate combination of excitement and caution and also trying to diagnose things that we're ignoring as well. And that's, I hope you keep that too. 'Cause that's definitely much needed like in a medical space. - Yeah, I mean like, I like to break things into, like, there's, treating a problem is one thing. Restoring functions is another thing and then maximizing functions is the third thing. And then if you confuse the three, you can get mixed up. So like treating an acute problem like, "Hey, you have an infection "where you give you thymus and awful one, "which is improving other countries for that indication "as a peptide, that's treating an acute problem." Restoring function, epitel on with broad eye therapy with blue eyed blockers at night, can restore your circadian clock, great. - Someone comes to me like, "Hey, I'm an executive, "I'm gonna make $100 million and if I don't perform, "I'm gonna lose all this money." Like, I need testosterone, I need the best peptide sac. I know how to help them maximize, right? And I'm gonna tell you, there's gonna be a trade-off to what you're gonna do. - But also without you're thinking about minus the trade-off, not over doing it. - Doing it safely, doing it carefully, make sure they're monitoring, checking their blood work, make sure that they're in the right spot. And most of these guys that come in with testosterone anyways, from stress and the lifestyle they're living, it's like, "Hey, some testosterone prescribed "at the right time to the right person can be life-changing, "marriage saving, in many cases." It could also cause divorces sometimes 'cause if you take up two patients, and this is not studied, this is just my observations, one of them goes on home replacement and the spouse doesn't. You get a discordance in the libido and their affect and their mood, like how a lady will bring her husband into clinic, 'cause she's on hormones, she feels a great rate and her husband isn't. She's like, "Fix my husband or else things aren't gonna be good." - She's like, "I ain't gonna get down, let's go." - My favorite patient is like the lady that's 55, she's metaposal, we're putting her on some estrogen, testosterone, a little bit of testosterone, she gets her life back, it's very therapeutic. - Wow. - And then she's like, "Hey, put my husband on the same stuff." But the point is, you can do maximization, but I think you should build on a good foundation first, like you should be restored, you should be vital, you should be doing the diet, exercise, sleep, stress management, all the basics. So you're looking at that stuff first, trying to get that in order and then where you can supplement with it, where it medically makes sense, then you can explore that. - And then go back to the JLP ones, like use them as training wheels. Like a patient comes on, they get on the JLP ones, we help them change their breastup with food, get better sleep, stress management, change their life, they got some momentum going with the JLP one, we just slowly pull that off. - Now, like every other doctor in existence, whenever, as far as I know, please correct me from wrong here, whenever you are prescribing things, like there's always, there is a monetary incentive that's attached to it because you get a kickback on the drug, so it's no different with like a JLP one and stuff like that. - It's worse. - So like, if I'm prescribing you, I don't know, an antibiotic, what's that you called me? Like, hey, I got a foot fungus or a foot infection, I got a pus, I needed an antibiotic. I'm not going to get kicked back directly from prescribing you that antibiotic. I might bill you for the visit. - Okay. - But I'm not going to get a kickback from the antibiotic company for that. An antibiotic company might be funding my medical school, funding the American Board of Internal Medicine, there might be some kind of back room deals happening, but directly, no. If you come to most doctors nowadays, this way, like this longevity anti-aging medicine world's kind of scammy, if you go to them, you want a vial of PT-141. They buy it from the pharmacy for 100 bucks, 150 bucks, they sell it to you for 500 bucks. So they're making a $400 profit off of you from using the medication. So they're more incentivized to give you more peptides, more drugs, more types. It's like, we sell our patients like, hey, you pay us for our expertise in our thinking. You're not paying us for the products. We'd like to give them their products at cost plus, that whatever the administrative fee is just to get the product out to them. That's how we like to do it. And a lot of times, I'm telling patients to take them off their protocols. 'Cause they come to me on nine peptides, and I'm like, why are you on this protocol? Like the only reason-- - Pulling them back. - The only person that benefits the person who prescribed it to you to make more money. - Right. - And then they let them have side effects. And I'm like, well, I had one lady, she was on Tessamorland, very calm peptide, a lot of people listening to this. - Tessamorland? Now, why did she want to be on that? - She and her growth hormone levels were low. She wanted some more recoveries, better body composition, some more fat loss, better muscle growth, better recovery than gym, all these things. She was on a crazy dose of it. She comes into my clinic as a transfer from another clinic. She's 10 pounds overweight from water retention. She thinks she has an autoimmune disease 'cause her hands are getting numb. - Yeah. - 'Cause of all the water retention. And she's freaking out. And we're sending alarms for autoimmune diseases. I'm like, wait, tell me your medication that's the end. And she's like, oh, Tessamorland, 800 micrograms a day plus epimolar. I'm like, oh shit, you're taking way too much of this product. We checked her IGF1 levels. They were sky high and she's having a side effect to the medication. We're like telling you like a self-medication. - So I have to give her another medication, lasex to die of research to get the water fluid out of her body. - Did it? - Yeah, within three weeks we got her back to normal, but why would we even put her through that? - Right. - Game better stewards of medicine. - Yeah, now that's the, we started to talk about this earlier, but kind of got off it. Like the Wild West Black mark that peptides are as a whole. You got these people saying, "Scroll up on my TikTok and I'll send you a fucking peptide." I'm probably sending you like, I don't know, baking soda or something. - Yeah, it could be baking soda. I mean, I call this out like three years ago. Like, eventually she's trying to get a fentanyl in the supply. I don't think it's happened yet. That's what I'm worried about. Like, why is there fentanyl in Adderall that kids are taking? - Right. - You heard about this? - Yeah, yeah. - Like, poor, like 4.0 student kids at a school is things that matter all to get better grades. And then found dead in their bed because it was fentanyl. - It was a kid at my college. It was a couple of years younger than me who was in a class than me actually. Who that is exactly what happened to him. - So very unfortunate. - It's horrible. - So eventually that might happen. So far, the peptide supply and not to be like, if your memory that hasn't happened just yet, the problem is, so let's see how we got here. JLP ones came out, everybody got hyped about them. Doctors weren't that hyped about it at the beginning, now more or so. Then there was a shortage. They got into the compound pharmacies. The compound pharmacies is to make clones of the JLP one drug. It's not called those Zembeck anymore. It's still the same Zemeglutide. So the same active ingredient. - Okay. - They make it, they add some B12 in it. It's like, "Hey, you need some B12." So now it's combined together. Why do we have to get through patent law? So Zemeglutide's under patent, but if there's a shortage, you can still compound it to meet the shortage of need. Or if it's meaning specific dose requirement or compounding another drug to meet a specific patient need. They would use that. We'd add some glycine into it. And now the patient's happy. - Yeah, they just spice it up a little bit. - So people have made hundreds of millions of dollars from this as well. Compound pharmacies and telehealth companies. - Now, you know when you, 'cause you're a doctor and you're going to prescribe things, are you always confident with where you're getting it from? - When we're prescribing it from the FDA-approved regular pharmacy, that's coming from the EILLE or Northern order, since it's coming from the actual drugs. - Now, research-grade has existed for 25, 30 years. It's called peptide sciences. It's got shut down or voluntarily shut down, let's say, voluntary told. - Peptide science is probably did around $500 million last year, selling illicit peptides. How do they do this? They put on the vial for research easily. And then you go to check out and you say, "Yes, I am a researcher. I'm not using this for humans or animals. I'm mostly doing this for cell culture research." And they can legally ship it to you. You get it. and check that right into you, that's what ends up happening. This was a multi-million dollar year. I suspect that we're talking about 10 to 20 billion dollars of redistrict peptides that have been sold over the last 12 months. - 10 to 20 billion. - Yeah, peptides did half a billion to alone. There's hundreds of these websites now. - This is one thing. And I think about this any time I see something pop up. But like, you've been laying out today really well how this stuff's been around and some, you know, you were aware of it in 2015 and, you know, you even had your grandma taking a GLP one in 2005. So it's not like, it wasn't here. But the whole, this came out of nowhere thing a year ago. I don't even remember the word peptide being used. Roughly, maybe, give or take. This year, fucking, you know, you go to a family dinner, your aunt's talking about it and whatever. And I always go while a little bit like, oh, okay, wait a minute. When I see something, like, it's like NFTs. Like, you better know where and then suddenly everyone's poor. - And everyone who pushed it now is still, is like, I know that everything's normal. - Do you think about that a lot? - Yeah, I do. I'm like, that's why I never expected peptides to blow up. I'm like, no one's gonna want to check themselves with stuff. I think the GLP ones made people less needle phobic. They're less needle. And they're like, hey, if I can lose weight from this injection, what else can I get out of injection? - Yeah. - That's what ended up happening. On top of that, it's the affiliate game. Like, you could make way more money than the doctor telling you not to take peptides. If you were an affiliate on TikTok selling peptides. - That's right. - And you don't even have to own a peptide company. You can make 30 to 40 racks a month. Affiliate peptides on TikTok to soccer moms. - I wonder if some of this is getting in a totally different way, obviously, but we'll end up, we'll be seeing documentaries. Like, we see on the opiate crisis now. We will have things like this. You believe we will. - I think we won't. Not today's thing is opiodes are just strong medications. - Right, it's a different thing. It's different in that. In peptides, there's a lot of therapeutic benefits that come out of them potentially for certain problems. Like, I told the serum, here in Bug Asks, I tore my tricep, working out with some bodybuilders, like Larry Wheels and a friend Adam. It's purple from here to here. I heard the pop line. - When was this? - This was October of 2025, so almost a year ago. - You tore your whole tricep? - A great two-track, the tear. - Jeez. - So there's still a little bit of attachment, but I could feel the divot where it was missing. I put BPC157, took some secret dogs and into the thing. - How much were we talking? - I was taking five to ten milligrams a day of BPC157, so-- - That's like a lot. - Have to dose, yeah. People take a good milligram a day. But I can, I don't know. I was like, hey, experiment. I like that you're a doctor experiment. - Am I on yourself? - I'm like, hey, I don't know the time to get surgery right now. I need this fixed. I'm like, if this is gonna work, it's gonna work for me. Otherwise, we're gonna see what happens. I go to a potlock later that day and they're like, hey, is your tricep hanging off? Like, people, my friends said this, and they're like, yeah, it is. I'm like, it's probably gonna need surgery, this sucks. Whatever. The next day, purple from the meds to edge. - Yeah. - I put BPC in it for a couple of times over the day and then I'm like, oh, that's getting better. At the time, I'm getting PT for my ACL. So, too many injuries. Be careful how you left. I'm an M&D when it comes to the gym. Doing Jiu-Jitsu, Mootine, all these things. But my PT guy's like, oh, your triceps didn't even better pretty quick. Like, he quoted me three to four months for a grade two tear. Three weeks, I was back. - That's even seems quick. Three to four months for a grade two. - Yeah. - A grade three tear needs surgery. Like, my peptide's not gonna magically heal a grade three tear. - Right, so grade two is when it's not completely ripped off. - Yes. - But it's like, there's a nice rip in there. - Yeah, a grade one's like a strain. - Yeah. - Or a strain, what we're talking about. - It's a nasty injury. - Yeah, it's a nasty injury. It's very freak injury. Like, it happened because the loads were reusing. Might be because of my set mutation. The muscle belly's bigger than the tendon can handle. - Right. - So anyways, I put the BPC in there. And a few weeks later, I'm back to normal. Whenever I had surgery, my tricep is intact. So I'm like, yo, that's pretty cool. So if that was true, I'm still skeptical myself. I'm like-- - That's an insane placebo effect though, if it's a placebo effect. - I mean, maybe not even placebo. Maybe I just had just a good healer, right? - Yeah. - I have great genes together. - I have them gangus con. - Yeah, there you go, right? So I don't know, maybe. - Did I say that politically correct this time? - Yeah. - It seems to give me the thumbs up. - That's nuts though. So you're putting five to 10 milligrams in there. - Yeah, and like so, here's the cool thing. If that works, I have a million use cases in the ICU for BPC157, for patients that's coming in, 'cause BPC was developing gastric juices. The main effect it was studied for was for ulcerative colitis. - So you were using that in the ICU? - No, no, I'm saying I would love if this became an FDA-proved drug. To be able to give patients an infusion of BPC. - No, it was real confused for-- - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I wish. Fairyland, not real world, not loud. If I used that in ICU, it would reveal my hospital profile, it's probably Taylor Meisens, right? And so that's the reality of that world. But if it works, and this story that I had, if that was really from BPC157, then we need to get this in the hands of military operators, although all ladies that fall and slip and tear something, like it dramatically changed the things. So it's not about taking it forever, it's about taking it, how can you take this as a course with an injury? - And then you hope it doesn't get like passed through in a way such that it goes behind the, you know, the great wall so to speak here. - Yep, and they suddenly spiked the price 40,000 fucking percent. So people can't access it, you know. - Yep, exactly, that's what's gonna happen. - That's what's gonna happen. - I mean, like my favorite peptide's probably Penelion. - Penelion? - It's a Russian peptide derived from cow brains. I think they might be some of them in there. I don't know what they sent you. - I don't know what they sent me either. - That's BPC157. - Which one were you snorting, Dave? That's one, right here. - No, no, no, no. - Penelion's cool, I took some last night. Penelion is a brain performance peptide. It increases brain energetic potential. - Oh, let's go. - Well, so you'll get very vivid dreams out of it. - Okay. - About like no brain fog in the morning. The more the increase in dream state, the more it seems to be baseline dysfunction in brain metabolism. - Wow. - So I have a guy in Twitter that's tagging me every day. He's like, I have bipolar disorder. I've been taking Penelion. It's not medical advice. It's not an approved indication for bipolar disorder. He's like, I got my brain waves measured before and after. And my brain waves are more conducive to positive outcomes. - Whoa. - Yes. And I don't even know what bipolar disorder patients have. Brain waves, like I'm not a psychiatrist. It's not my specialty. But. - That's fascinating. - It's a very, it's a three amino acid peptide. It's naturally felt like if you were to eat organ meats, like cow brains, which people traditionally ate all the organs before modern McDonald's system, you only ate the muscle meat. People ate all the organs. You would get some of these peptides naturally. And the Russians have studied these peptides on humans and they actually works on producing a better brain function. So, like jet lag, not jet lag with Penelion, you get yourself shit like that. I think all the people that travel on business all year, you know, they get used to it, but like it's not good for the body. - Yeah, so like with my, with my hyperformers, I give them a mega dose of melatonin. So like I'm very anti-using melatonin for sleep. - Your nose does, yeah. - Yeah, I'm very anti-using melatonin for sleep. I think you should be able to make your own melatonin. - You have to, yeah. - However, when you're traveling to Dubai and it's 12 hour time shift, there's no natural way to get around that. 'Cause it's unnatural to be able to get them plain. - Fly 30,000 feet above the sky and go there. So anyways, I give them 200, 300 milligrams of melatonin. I have most people buy five to 10 milligram, or one milligram gummies. I'll give them a mega dose. - How many milligrams? - 300. - 300. - Yeah, it feels like enough to kill a fucking- - So that's the crazy part. - Elephant. - The first five to 10 milligrams saturate your receptors already after that, it's not long, it's not longer working on sleep receptors, it's working on whole body anti-alcoholic status. I give them some Penelion, they land whatever they're going and they're just ready to go. - Wow. - Now what, so you mailed me as we said, the physical ones here at The Injectable. - Yeah, this is my friend's company, your protocol. So there's a bias, of course, there. - Yep. - And these are all different. - Yeah, there's a bunch of them that are probably the Russian peptides. Violin, part of that thymus stack. Penelion and epitelon are the most interesting ones there. Penelion, I can't even tell which one's which. - So this is the sewage rinse, the stem cell activator, what else did he send you? BPC157, BPC157, there's an epitelon. Epitelon is the Penelion circadian rhythm one. - What's this one, Villon? - Villon is part of that thymolin peptide. - That's the one I can't take it up here. - Penelion is an interesting one. It can help boost the brain performance that we talked about. Epitelon's more circadian rhythm. Combines together, you got like. - Get deeper sleep. - Yep, stuff like more of that. - So like people notice like three hours of REM on their whoop square. - Oh, let's go. - Yeah, so it's an interesting thing. - And this is a safer way, if you're gonna try this stuff something like this, not necessarily this brand individual. - Yes, it is. - You're saying in general, it's a safer way to try it with a less effective dose by the way, doing something orally like this to supplement rather than trying to inject yourself and, you know. - So the way to think about it is I break it down to do you have receptors or versus no receptors. It has a receptor. It's a way more potent of an effect, but also way more risk of side effects. - Got it. - Like a jumping one's of a clear receptor. So we know what we're activating, what we're tickling. These bioregulated peptides, they don't have a clear receptor. So it's more hazy of what they do. So they're not as potent as the jumping ones, but they have a restorative effect that seems to be pretty safe. Epitelon has like 40 years of literature on it from the Russian side. If you trust the Russians. - Trust the Russians. - It feels good. - Yeah, exactly. - I mean, the crazy part is like when you take epitelon, oral injectable, whatever it is, your circadian rhythm is like you, people tell me like I get sleepy at 10 p.m. no matter what now. - Hmm. - So that kind of peptides interesting to me because I'm helping to restore their biological function rather than trying to supersede. - Oh, that's cool. - Now BPC orally is very interesting. I always travel with some BPC orally. I think it's one of them's BPC. - Might have put that away, but go ahead. - Easy way to track it. Yeah, BBC go eat some Indian food, some spicy food, whatever it may be pop BBC before it if you have Problems before with digesting it won't happen with BBC from BPC Or all BBC is don't tempt me. I get more hungover from food than I do alcohol. Really? Yeah, I'm very curious I'm like when I when I you know when I eat something this is kind of loaded with the bad shit or whatever You know, I was talking about the McDonald's extreme example, but like if I go have a huge dinner somewhere because I eat the Same shit during the week and I eat very clean and very well if I go have a huge hardy dinner somewhere the next morning I'm like all right. Let's fucking yeah, I just make it in the gym in the first 20 minutes Maybe we'll be all right, you know, but BBC will like you know, you get some GI to strad like be be able to care of the GI side Got it, and you'll feel like you have Perfect perfect this one. I this one. I'm very the BPC ones Fascinating to me because it feels like and I might be wrong here, but just in the way It's been described by you and some other people I've talked to a little bit about it. It's the most What's the word I'm looking for? Kind of you know what you're getting yeah versus the other ones a little more basic a little less Worried about yeah, what we don't know about it whereas some other ones seem to be a little more potent attacking something very Specific that's fair to say. Yeah, I mean BPC like talking about it before but Pavlov the dog researcher He would sell gas reduces from dogs. He would harvest gas or juices from dogs and give it to people for dyspepsia Well for people that have like Gurd and stuff and it worked and work Supposedly according to his his research. So where do you what do you think all this is what do you mean in a decade like we're if If we're and I'm asking you to wait. Yeah, yeah I guess so this is total guess work here, but one decade from now we're talking about peptides and whatever new context We have with them. Yeah, do you think it's been a good clear net win for people? I think there's gonna be a massive adaptation. There's gonna be a decrease people like I'm sick of injections There's gonna be some horror stories to come out with a fabricator real People are gonna stop using them and they're gonna maybe go shift The needle the other way chef the pendulum the other way to say and then I think that we're gonna start developing more targeted peptides targeted peptide because I think now with the AI and stuff like and I'm not AI fixes everything guy But there's a guy that's all yesterday on Twitter. He like custom designed a compound using AI for a specific receptor I was like whoa. This is gonna get crazy somebody get leak running in here. Yeah. It's gonna flip out Anti-AI it's not you say no. No, he's just like there's it's a compliment rather than yeah But in that way actually the way you're describing it that is kind of if it's used correctly I don't I'm not familiar with how this guy did it But like if he's using inputs that are already known yeah, then create something that's kind of interesting because you can 3d model or Septering find us something that binds into it perfectly That'd be interesting And I think that's gonna be targeted peptides because like what mean my team we do is we try to find the peptides that will be popular in three four years Yeah ahead of the curve Figure out if there's any use fullness in them right for like unique cases Now I'm very interested more importantly than all this stuff. It's like what how can we find a Fymus peptide stack the restore time function because I'm very worried about where we are immunity-wise if five to ten years Right So like I agree with you on that very worried about that if there's like it if you can take desiccated thymus from cows Like yeah, it probably has to be less than six month old cow, so it has to be veal So that's a limitation because if you have an old cow it has an old thymus. That's like we do. So it's not good So if you could figure out a way to restore people's thymus is there's been some studies about using oral thymus extracts to that With some effect now you can find a way to restore people's immune function whether that's Strategic new ways to develop zinc and new thymus peptides whatever it may be at the standard critical I think it's national security risk to not have immune state fixed after the pandemic. Yeah. Oh, I spy for design I've no one put it that way. I agree though. It's a huge national security. Yeah, that's a great way to bring it home to people because it's like The whole society is vulnerable to things that Maybe it would be less vulnerable to yeah, if they actually had a good immune system Thinking more in the lens of like bio-attacks and stuff like that. Yeah, I mean like I I sprinted on myself. There's a peppacle thymus anaphyl one. It comes from the thymus gone. We naturally make it decrease with age It's actually approved in other countries not in the United States. It's orphan drug status here in the United States They used to give it for kids that were born without thymus. I got this peptide It's available a lot of compound pharmacies but also the research chemical sites particularly caution I got this peptide I would get sick like once twice a year in the hospital because there's so many germs I would inject this peptide twice a week while I'm on the wards from like say to November to March And I wouldn't wear the mask and everybody else ever like it's not even pandemic It's supposed pandemic all my colleagues are sick every every week. What's up? The else they got masks on They're sick. I was like well, whatever to see what happens. I took this peptide and I'm Let's say bulletproof. Thank God Not getting sick wherever resilient and I'm like this might be a natural nice use case for somebody who's like more prone Getting sick as a as a defense mechanism So we're not necessarily trying to biohack and change the biology But like hey, how can you making more resilience? You can do what you want to do So if I'm gonna take like a 12 hour flight I'll take some time sound for one to boost my immune system because The bigger problem that no one's really considering after the pandemic is like I just came from LA to the New York area. There's different germs here than existing LA sure Yeah, I've done this in 2019. They're being less risk than now. Why? Let's say my immune system's a little bit worse yours is worse his a little bit worse Her's a little bit worse than it was before You're hard. You're holding certain germs and viruses. He is. She is. We all have different germs and viruses If your immune system is worse You're holding more germs and viruses than you would otherwise. You're exposing me to higher risk now. Yes, then I would otherwise it's a cascading effect Yes, it was like when I see people that are now anti-social or they're depressed my question is is that a feature or a bug? What if it's both. Yeah, it could be but like what if their new system is defending them from meeting other people Until they can recover and rejuvenate Because they can't even tolerate going out. God. This is gonna shit like no matter what It's peptides are one little piece of everything But like medicine as a whole is changing the downstream effects Socioculturally or also medical and evolutionary as a result to the pandemic and Things like that. Wow, and then like obesity is one of the fastest weighty strength times So everyone's obese has less immune reserve. That's why they get higher cancer rates Problem is rapid weight loss also strength your thymus and no one's on the study looking at deal p ones And that would take 30 years to actually see the effects like we said if if I took your thymus out today Right, it'll take five to ten years for me to notice a change Then that's the scary part for people But it's good that like you're expressing that as well so people can kind of know what we're dealing with here But Dr. Buckrey I'd be talking with you for another three hours We have another podcast right after this. I think you're gonna stay for that one. Yeah for sure as well, but this is You're amazing at like date your level of knowledge and the scope of all this stuff So we'll have everything linked down below your great follow on X will put up your Instagram there as well And then also let's make sure we put up the link to your clinic so people check that out And if there's something for the app you're working on that you want people to check out calibrate dot day Calibrate dot days people can check that out But we're gonna have to do this again my friend for sure. All right. Thanks so much for doing it grab me All right, everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge huge help. Thank you So if I say so, I'm going to shop if I say aloita ilmainen kokeilu shopify piste kom si vustolla