‘And that didn’t happen’ – When God’s Plans Are So Much Better

Season 2, episode 10, carry shells with Kilda Davis. And that didn't happen when God's plans are so much better. When I was growing up, like many kids, I wanted to do various things. But the one constant was, I knew I wanted to get married and have kids. And I think I rather naively assumed I'd go away to uni, meet someone, get married half-leaf or after. For lots of my friends, that did happen, but it didn't happen for me. And so then I decided that when I get a job and I move someone you find any church, then that'll probably be when I find someone that didn't happen. So on a daily basis, we had to submit our desires to God. And we had to say, we know you're good and you know our hearts' desires. But it may be that your plans are different from our plans. Well hello and welcome back to Carry Shells. I'm Catherine Grimes, I'm your host and it is a beautiful opportunity to connect with you today. I'm really excited to have you here with us and my lovely guest, Kilda Davis, in the studio here. So Carry Shells, if you're not familiar, is a place where we want it to be for you to connect with women and faith worldwide to be empowered and encouraged by these conversations that ultimately we can all pour something beautiful into the sound waves that are otherwise overrun with bad news, frankly. So today I've got Kilda, Kilda Davis. She is soon to celebrate her seventh anniversary with her husband Ian. Having been a dedicated primary school teacher for 18 amazing years, well done you. She has loved swapping the classroom for the home as full-time mum to their toddler. Kilda gets excited about walking, board games, playing the piano, reading and baking, but not necessarily in that order. The best part of her day is when she and her husband get to sit down after dinner and read the Bible with their little girl. So Kilda, welcome, lovely to have you here today. Thank you very much. Thank you for being here and thank you for being willing to share your stories. Now Kilda, before we jump into those stories, I am curious. As a seasoned primary school teacher, are you one of those mums who allows all of the mess to catastrophically explode in your home as perhaps you might have done in the classroom? Or is it more contained? Mess has always been contained for me. I love a bit of mess, but there are rules around it. Said like a true teacher. I already feel put in my place. No mess. Brilliant, brilliant. And what sort of activities would you do with your daughter at home that are contained, Mess Kilda? Give us a glimpse. We do a lot of baking and cooking. She loves doing that. Things like uncooped pasta and corn kernels. Very easy to clean up, but she loves pouring things about it. Very easy to clear up. That seems like a cop out, Kilda. Paid with lots of coverings in the place. I love it. I'm sure your husband really appreciates the contained mess as well. No doubt. So Kilda, and we've had a glimpse into the childhood of your little girl at the moment. So you take us back to your own childhood and tell us about what it was like and why it was actually unusual. So when I was born, my parents were working in Uganda with Church Mission Society. And so I grew up on a theological college campus. And it was brilliant childhood. So we were obviously enjoying loads of really amazing weather. I'm a food expert. I wouldn't have been able to put this into words beforehand when I was a child, but I think just a chance to grow up in a completely different culture. And experience what that was like is massively enriching. So I was there until I was six and then we moved back to the UK and lived in Wolverhampton, where my dad was a vicar. And casting your mind back to Uganda then between one and six, do you have any key memories that really stand out? I think I just remember lots of fun playing with friends, the sunshine, really fun holidays. Soking up the race then. Yes, just the community and the freedom that you got as a child there. Yes. Yes. And more so in comparison then to the UK, you would say the freedom. Definitely. I think growing up on a campus, we had the freedom to roam within set limits there. Yes. And there was lots of outdoor time because the weather was always amazing. So when I started school, I was homeschooled, but that was the mornings and then you had the afternoon. Did you like your time, your wild time in Uganda and not that? Did you ever see any lions? Yes. Yes. We went on safari for holidays. Not up close in person or then? Not up close in person. We had none because in the garden sometimes. So you go and exotic touch, I love it. So you grew up in Uganda and as you said, you later came to Wolverhampton, a little less exotic, dare I say, in the UK, but I can say that because I've been there myself and lived there for a period. So and you also talked about Calder that your father was in the Anglican Church. So in Wolverhampton there he is, Vicka River Anglican Church, evidently you were exposed to God then at a very young age. But we do know that faith has to be a personal inner conviction, right? So tell us about your own faith journey from a girl to a teen. What were the defining points for you? So I think I was amazing privileged to have parents who made faith central to everyday life. So they brought us up every day. We read the Bible together and we prayed and we sang Christian songs. And that gave me a really good foundation. And so there was never a point where I didn't believe, I always just accepted that the Bible was true. But I think when I was 13, it was probably the first time it became a personal faith. So I went on a Christian summer camp called a Cypher camp. And these camps were normally in a boarding school. And he had lots of fun activities during the day. But you also had every evening, like a mini church service. And then you'd have a daily Bible study with your dorm leader. And it was in one of those Bible studies that our dorm leader gave us a verse from Colossians, which says, "So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him, "reached Him built up in Him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, "and overflowing with thankfulness." And I think that verse was key because I'd been taught about the faith. But it was now up to me to be rooted in the faith. And that meant that I had to start reading the Bible for myself, and praying to God, and developing more of a personal relationship. So I think that was really, really key. But equally key. I think it was when I was about 14. And I started my GCSE course and sat next to a girl that I didn't know. And it turned out we both had WWJD bracelets on. Ah, for those who are familiar, what would Jesus do? There we go. Costs, a specter, isn't it, Keldich? How many moons ago? So one of us asked the other, "You're a Christian." And it turned out we both were. And that was such a blessing because I didn't know any other Christians in my year at school. And so we developed a really strong friendship. But then one day she said to me, "Do you go to the school C.U.? And I didn't, because it really wasn't the dumb thing to go to the C.U. And I wasn't a cool kid, but this was, yeah. Definitely, I'm cool." And she said to me, "If we're Christians and we're really believing this and living this, then we should really be going and not worrying what people think about us." And so we agreed we'd go together, breathe it together. And I think that was key because it was the first time I'd had to make a choice of putting my faith first. And not worrying about what other people might think. And putting God as number one in my life even when that could be uncomfortable. Yes, because isn't that a scenario that I'm sure all of us are familiar with, that wrestle between, shall I put God first? Or shall I actually fear what other people think? I think our whole lives we struggle with that, don't we? Whether we're men, whether we're women, that is a struggle. But let's go back briefly then, Kelder, to that young Kelder and in your teens. Obviously, you grew up as a vicar's daughter. Now, I've never experienced this myself. It's not something I can empathise with, but I do have friends who have. And I want to ask you, did you ever feel like a label was placed upon you? Like there were expectations of behaviour being the vicar's daughter? I mean, what for you were the greatest challenges, were there pros and cons? I think for me, I largely find it a very positive thing. I think because I had made that commitment quite early on that I was going to be a Christian, I really loved the church community and I wanted to be involved in the church. And so I didn't feel like there was an expectation to do that because it was what I wanted to do. I think there was some level of teasing at school about being the holy kid, but that could have been equally being because people knew I was a Christian. Sure. And I'm fairly thick-skinned. I don't really worry about gentle teasing and it was fairly good natured. But I could see how some people might feel there was a lot of pressure and a lot of expectations. might push against that. Yes, let's fast forward then. Let's talk about university. That was another season, wasn't it, in which your faith was stretched. You studied languages, I love that, and part of that was actually a year abroad. That's the best part, isn't it? Absolutely. Now you studied Russian, Kelder, which when you told me this, I thought, "My goodness, what a woman!" And you chose the location of Ukraine, which is a very interesting and obviously well known destination. Now, in Ukraine you started to attend the Orthodox Christian Church. So that must have been quite a different experience to what you'd been used to with an Anglican upbringing here in the UK. Tell us, Kelder, what did God teach you during that period of your life? So much. I think there were probably two key things that He taught me specifically from the church point of view. So when I first went to the Orthodox Church, pretty much everyone would start with the first question. They'd say, "Are you Orthodox?" And I'd say, "No, but I'm Christian." And then they, their reply would be, "So you're not Christian, then because you're not Orthodox?" And it was really tricky to navigate that, because it's such a different perspective. And I'm someone who's used to different denominations and can see the positives and negatives about different denominations. But a lot of people in the Orthodox Church, that's all they've ever known. And so they had quite a lot of differences, certainly in the way they worshipped. They were also doctrinal differences. And it really forced me to go to the Bible and really dig into what does the Bible say about these things. And what are things that maybe we have developed as part of the culture of church that aren't the key, the central things that we need to be worried about? Yes. And so once I got to know them and they got to know me, then we realised actually the core beliefs they were all signed. And equally when I came back to the UK, I'd almost have the inverse conversation with people of people saying, "Also where did you go to church?" And I'd say I went to an Orthodox Church and people would often reply, "Oh, but they're not Christian, are they?" How interesting, yes. It was fascinating. So it really taught me you've got to get to know people and denominations. And you've got to see just really, I guess, a cess for yourself are their beliefs biblical. And if their core beliefs are biblical, a lot of the peripheral doesn't matter so much. Yes, because the Bible is our plumb line, isn't it? As you say, if we line up with the Bible, then we're on the same page, no pun intended. It's really fascinating as well, because I think you show their calder that sense of human nature that we come at things with preconceptions. We come at things with judgements. And yeah, I find that really interesting. So you also said that you felt there was a sense of embracing a different style of worship there. Yes. And I'm sure it goes against that sense of me that predominates. Dominated. Western Europe. So how do you think calder, as a woman, no matter our geography, we can actually ensure that our worship is always God-centered? How can we reject any consumerist vision of church and of worship? So I think the way that worship was so different in the Orthodox Church services really long. So they're about three hours long and you stand up the whole time and they're led by the priest in the choir. And there's very little congregational participation. So as part of the congregation, you'll sing the Lord's Prayer and you'll sing the Creed and you'll go to take communion. But other than that, you're just stood there and you're listening. And that really taught me to slow down and just really think about the liturgy and think about the words that are being sung. A lot of it was taken directly from the Bible. And this was, I was so used to a church where you're stood up, you're singing, you're sat down, you're saying something, you might have a chapter of the person next to you in a break. And we're so used to having a variety of churches, we can find a church that we like the style. And we like the style of worship, the style of the preaching. It's got people that are maybe similar to us. That I think in the West it's really easy to want to, without knowing it, you become that consumer. And so you can then complain if you didn't like a particular song or if you didn't like the style of worship or whatever. Being exposed to something completely differently taught me that again we have to go back to the Bible. I think one of the key things I've learnt in life is you have to go back to the Bible and check yourself. So if you find yourself starting to either internally or verbally complain about something, check yourself. Is this something that matters because of the Bible, because it goes against or the Bible, says, or is it almost a cosmetic thing, in a cultural thing or a preference? And I think you touch on as well, don't you, that question that perhaps we don't always ask here in the West. And we should more often, a question of reverence. Are we at church truly in a place of reverence before God or have we allowed, as you say, our stylistic preferences to impact that and perhaps pull away from that? So I often think as well, you know, in our church family there is such a warmth, there is such a sense of home and friendship. And obviously when you see people you want to chat to them, you want to welcome them, you want to greet them. But at the same time I'm thinking, well we've come together here because God's at the centre, we've come together to worship Him. You know, shall we really zoom in on Him, not on one another? So it's a difficult balance, isn't it? Because of course fellowship is a beautiful thing, God's given us. I'm not saying that's wrong. But I just want to have we misjudged slightly in the West here, because the me gets first place. Actually, are we giving God the reverence that he deserves? I think we have to be careful sometimes as songs that we sing. I think they can be me focused, not God focused. And we have to really watch that actually God's getting the glory. Yes. And He is the central point that we're worshiping. Yes. And it's dark me as you talked about your orthodox experience as well in the services you're saying three hours. You stood up that in itself as a marathon, well done. But you're not actively participating. And so there you are, presumably in some silence as well. Did you feel in those moments of silence dislocated from the service as a whole, or did you actually feel this was an opportunity to really tune in to God? So I took it as an opportunity to really tune into God. The other challenge with the orthodox church is in old church Levantneck, which is different to Russian. And it's a bit like Latin to us. Okay. And that is not a language that's spoken. Yes. And so it was really hard to follow the service. So part of what I did while I was out there was I got a copy of the liturgy. And I spent a long time translating it and trying to get to grips with it. And so I think just the process of doing that really slowed me down. And once of the liturgy, it's things like the sums. And when they're singing it, each line takes longer because they're singing it. And it really helps you to meditate on each line. I think what does this actually mean? And what he's got saying to me. And it stops you rushing about and having that busyness that I think we're so used to in the West, that it's easy to not hear God when you're just rushing from one thing to another. Definitely. Yes. Yes. That tyranny of rushing and haste. So, Kelder, has that impacted your subsequent reading of the Bible as a woman now? Obviously you're in a very different season of life. You've got a little toddler, you've got your husband, you've got ongoing demands and things to occupy your mind. When you sit down and read the Bible now, do you find that you are able to find that quiet space and really deliberately slow the pace? I think it's very easy to slip back into holdways and the culture you're in. So, I think it's something I have to work on. But we try to make sure that every day we are sitting down and we are reading the Bible and we're making space for that. Because I think otherwise, if you don't have that set time for it, you suddenly do a whole day and you realise, oops, we didn't read the Bible. So, I think it's something we have to keep working at and making space for. And that is something that I think everyone will put their hand up and say, goodness me, yes, that is applicable to me, certainly as for me. So, Kelder, let's jump now then to another aspect of your story. We're here in the present day, you're 42. You're married, you've got a gorgeous little toddler who's very much keeping you on your toes with that contained mess. But marriage didn't happen for you, perhaps, as quickly as you might have wanted it to. So, can you take us back, Kelder, to those lessons of the heart in your 30s? How did God take you on a journey then? So, when I was growing up, like many kids, I wanted to do various things. And I think I rather naively assumed I'd go away to uni, meet someone, get married half a year after. And for lots of my friends, that did happen, but it didn't happen for me. And so then I decided that when I get a job and I move somewhere new, finding new church, then that'll probably be when I get married. I find someone and that didn't happen and marriage was something I desperately wanted. And when I was in my mid-20s I got our state and by someone and got very excited and I did a classic prayer of "Oh thank you God for providing this guy and please bless it", didn't actually really pray about it and it ended up being very short relationship with quite a lot of hurt. And from that God really taught me that we can't shoehorn what we want into our lives and then just ask him to bless it because we need to be making sure that we are making wise choices and going with the plans he for us has for us. There's that verse in Proverbs I think that says many of their plans in a man's heart but it's the Lord's will that prevails and so we can have all sorts of ideas but actually God's will is the best thing for us. And so then I decided okay I'm going to learn from my mistakes clearly now it's not the time that God has for me to get married so I would just make the most of being single and at the time I read a book by Joshua Harris called "I Kissed, Stating Goodbye" and one of the the premise of the book is that if you're not ready for marriage then you shouldn't be dating and if you are dating then it should be for the sole purpose of finding out is this person the right person for me to marry and one of the phrases he used in the book was hustle while you wait so he was saying if one day you want to become a wife or become a mother use your waiting period to really become the person that would make you a good mother a good wife so to work on your character and to work on practical things and I thought that was good advice so I used my time to make sure that I was really spending as much time as I could read in the Bible praying because being single you have loads of time to do that. Yes don't you? It's marvellous and making sure that I was serving God at church as much as I could but also I wanted to always kind of study married couples and people with children just find out what are they doing really well why they're married so successful why they are amazing parents. But without the stalking element? Absolutely, Calda. I love that. I'm studying you. So I'm a people watcher anyway so I find that sort of thing really interesting. But I had particularly two friends that I knew from uni who I spent a lot of time with them and their families and it was just a really brilliant chance to learn from them while I was still single they were amazing in letting me help with the kids and very trusting in letting me help bring up their kids in certain aspects. Yeah I just really enjoyed the privilege of being able to live life alongside them knowing that one day these might be skills that I would use and I would then have practiced on their kids but if God didn't provide a husband and I didn't have kids that I just had the privilege of being involved with their lives. So I love that phrase hustle while you wait from Joshua Harris's book that obviously really impacted your thinking on singleness at that time and I think it's important to emphasise that isn't it because we live in a world that is so relationship driven that singleness can often go by the wayside and be seen as worthless as second best and I think it's far from it isn't it I mean you talked with a rye grin on your face about remembering all that time that you had at your disposal back when you were single and I laughed because my goodness yes but I think the point is that every season is beautiful isn't it you know there is that verse in Ecclesiastes 311 that I often come back to that God has made everything beautiful in its time and I love Keldar that you were very intentional in seeking to extract all that beauty from that season not knowing the end point you know because we don't do it but yes I love your intentionality and that's something that we can all learn from I think in whatever season we are in but let's fast forward then and say you know for you actually God did unite you with your man how did that happen Keldar give us the romantic story not for it's romantic so I was probably early 30s and I hadn't met anyone through church all through friends and so I still wanted to get married I think I'd learnt to be content where I was which I think is a really important thing yes I learned that actually God is the only one who can complete me who's going to fulfil me which definitely in my mid 20s I haven't learned that lesson maybe I had to wait a long time because it was going to take me a long time to learn that lesson I don't know but I decided I'd just pushed the door one last time and so although the thought was just horrendous I decided I'd give internet dating ago and so I tried it I had one completely disastrous date the guy was perfectly lovely but it was just clear that we were not going to be compatible and messaged a few people but nothing really went anywhere and so I decided right definitely not what God's got planned for me and then I went on holiday with a friend to me Walker and I was telling her that yeah I've tried it I do think it's going to work she persuaded me to give it another go and so I did and the very first person that I messaged ended up being my husband. Thank you go. So I think it was a classic case of I wasn't saying I can't live without this I'd reached a point where I almost I'd surrendered and said well maybe I'm just going to be single and that was when God popped in into the equation which is so funny in some ways isn't it in that that is how God works you know so often that he he longs for us to come to that place of surrender and he knows that that is life giving that actually that will free us because would you say Keldt and looking back that actually to some extent you were contained and dictated to buy this oh I need to get married I must get married as a young woman yes I guess so I think it's just society expect that almost and that's the story we're told and I think subliminally we can almost think well if I don't achieve that I haven't succeeded in life and that's not true because God can use you really really mightily if you're single and actually being single I had some brilliant experiences that I can't have while we're married and we can't do the level of travel I did for example just because budget wouldn't allow yes as a single person I had so much freedom to do that I could get involved in church a lot more yes yes you have less dependence don't you in the equation you know and we talked about that ourselves didn't we before this conversation that it is important when we're married to acknowledge that the happily ever after of those amazing Hollywood representations isn't automatically a reality you know you you are married but you're married to a man and that man has his faults just as much as you do frankly so do you feel that let's talk about your marriage very briefly what's God been showing you Keldair as the key to grow your love for your husband daily centering it on God and making the Bible number one and so we talk quite a lot about how marriage is a reflection of how Christ loves the church and when Jesus came that was sacrificial he loved unconditionally he forgave people and those all qualities you need to practice on a daily basis in marriage and you have to give yourself that other person even on the days or in the moments where they're just being infuriating and equally knowing that they're doing the same for you when you're being infuriating and I think when you are doing that on a daily basis I think for us it's really helped us understand on a different level God's love for us that he still loves us um even when we're horrible or annoying and that's a genuine love and practicing that daily with your spouse yeah conversely it just helps you to understand God's love for you yes definitely and it's very interesting as well as Nick Keldair that nothing is wasted so there is another aspect of your story actually where I believe you've really seen the things God was showing you in your 20s and 30s coming into fruition in that sense of saying I'm not going to make that an idol I'm going to keep trusting so tell us a little bit about your subsequent journey now with the child rearing and wanting to have a larger family tell us about that and how God's met you in in that place we when we got married um like many people just sort of we'll have kids it'll be great and then um that didn't happen and we ended up going on a journey of IVF we had some massive lows along the way and we obviously do not have a little girl that it took five friends of IVF and some crushing disappointment along the way and in that journey I think it was another area where where you just have to completely submit to God. And you have to trust that God is good even when that doesn't seem to be playing out in your life right now. And one of the verses that we clung to is from Romans 8, which says, "We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him who have been called according to His purpose." So on a daily basis, we had to submit our desires to God. And we had to say, "We know you're good, and you know our hearts' desires, but it may be that your plans are different from our plans." And that was really hard to do, particularly in a church environment you're surrounded by kids, and you're surrounded by people going, "Oh, I've got pregnant." And that can really hurt. But I think even through the pain, we were able to say, "God is good." And we just trust Him with this. And I guess it's not until you actually hold the baby in your arms that you really realize God has given us this. And I think one of my husband's favorite things is we live life forwards, but we understand it backwards. And we can see now, we've got, well, I've got an amazing husband, for an amazing daughter, and we can look back now and see the good if the waiting period, the way God has prepared us, and also just the way if we'd chosen our own paths, if I'd chosen to marry someone else, then they wouldn't have been just the right person for me. Yes. If we'd managed to have kids early up, we wouldn't have our amazing daughter now, and who's such a blessing. So it's easy with hindsight to say, "Thank you God for letting me wait." That doesn't necessarily make the journey any easier. No, absolutely not. And I suppose, Kael, my question is, because we love and carry shells to really allow ourselves not just to reflect on our stories, but consider how they might be of encouragement and empowerment to others. What would you say to women who are still in that place of waiting? So like you, they've held this desire for years that I would love to get married. I'd love to share my life with someone, or I'd love to have a child. I'd love to have a family. And they're probably saying, "I'm still waiting." What would you say to them to encourage them to really cling to God? I think God wants what's best for us. And we don't understand why God sometimes says no, but from the Bible, we do know that God is for us. And we've got relationship with God, and we can talk to God, and we can give Him all of our hurt and our pain. We're living in a fallen world, so there are going to be things that go wrong, things that are not the ideal. And I don't think we can ever fully understand that. But we can trust that God is good, and we'll draw near to us when we draw near to Him. Yes. So, Keldit, it's very interesting, isn't it, that as you've said again and again, and this feels like it's been a recurring theme in our conversation, that your plans weren't actually God's plans, and that that's very often a facet of his character that he is mysterious, that he does unexpected things. But would you change any of your circumstances if you had the opportunity to? Oh, good question. I think my current circumstances, no, I wouldn't change because I just feel massively blessed in what I've got. I think I would definitely want to change things about the past. So, for example, if I went back, I wouldn't have dated this guy. But equally, if I hadn't, the 80-10 would I have learned the lessons I needed to learn to get me to where I am now? Mm-hmm. Yes. And there's that verse, isn't there, in the Bible where it talks about pursuing godly contentment. Contentment with God is great gain, godly contentment. How as women can we pursue that? I feel like I've said this several times already, but I think we really have to center ourselves on the Bible because the world constantly tries to give us different messages, and particularly around self-worth, I think we're being bombarded on different levels with messages that say, "You're not good enough." And if we're not feeding ourselves daily with the word of God, which is the sort of spirit, useful for extinguishing all the flaming areas of the evil one, I think if we're not making that our foundation, I'm being really intentional about that. Yes. It's so easy for other messages to slip in and for us to lose that contentment. Yes. Yes. That's very interesting. You say that, Keldt, because that's another aspect that I wanted us to talk about. But if I may, I'd just love to bring in a brief insight into yesterday for me. So I was actually chatting to my daughter, and we were talking about how we can study the Bible. And the reason I say this is because people might look at you and say, "Well, it's okay for you, Keldt." You're really studious. You studied Russian. You obviously have a capacity to dig deep into words, language, and to really dig deep and be academic in that outlook. But not all of us are made that way, hey, and we need to be aware of that. But with my daughter, I was saying to her, perhaps we can make it as simple as bringing four key questions to this passage. What is it that really strikes you in this passage? And I think that's the first one, because it's so important for us to connect directly with what we're reading. And I love doing that one with my daughter, hearing what she says. And then the subsequent ones are, of course, what does this passage tell us about God? What does this passage tell us about ourselves? And how are we going to be different now that we've read this passage? So I was trying to use those four questions with her and see if we could tease out better understanding. Now, do you think that there are other ways that we can approach the Bible to make it more accessible and approachable? I think there are some great resources out there. So I think generally, I think the gospels people are happy with, fairly straightforward, and then pulse letters, people generally like. And then you get the trickier parts of the Bible, lots of people, I think the Old Testament scares them a bit. - Man, lividicus. (laughs) Well, we're just studying Isaiah and our home group. That's some challenging bits. But I think it's not being afraid of it. The Bible's the Word of God. And we have the Holy Spirit and we can pray and we can ask Holy Spirit to open our eyes as to what the Bible's saying. There are things like the Bible project videos, they give a brilliant, big picture. There are some excellent books that have been written that show you the themes running throughout the Bible, how, even in the Old Testament, Jesus is central. And so I think it's not putting up a wall and saying, "Oh, it's a bit too scary, I can't do it." But just taking those baby steps. - Yes. - Yeah, I think even things for me, just being in a small group at church, that's the time where you can come in your group, you can be vulnerable, you can say, "I'm gonna clue what this bit means." And you can pull your ideas. If you're not part of something like that, then that's a resource, I guess you're missing out on, helping you deepen your understanding. - Yes, yes. And isn't it interesting that in today's world as well, there is an increasing interest. They've called it the quiet revival this being drawn towards the Bible as absolute truth. Isn't that interesting that it's so prevalent in today's world where we have got so much anxiety. Yeah, so as you say, a bestseller, let's dig into the Bible. Let's find ways to connect with God on a daily basis. So, Kelder, it's been really interesting and really lovely hearing your stories. But specifically, I think your heart in saying, God doesn't always seemingly fulfill what we think is the desire of our hearts, but he does something better. He exceeds that and he does it in his way and his timing. Before we wrap up, is there anything further that you would like to say to encourage or challenge listeners today? - Okay, I just left to add to what I said about just digging to the Bible and if you're finding that that's tricky because you're not academic or whatever. One thing that we've found out with having our daughter is just the joy of a child's like faith. And I think one of the amazing things about the Bible is it is approachable even to the very young. So, from the day we bought her home from hospital, we've read the Bible with her different child versions. But we've really found that this is something that has built our faith and built our understanding of God. And she absolutely loves the Bible. Sometimes I've arguments because it's not an appropriate time to read the Bible. - I love that. But yes, I think learning how to explain it to a child as well has been really beneficial because they say, in teaching they say if you can explain something to someone else, you've really understood it. And I mean, she's not to yet. So, we've got a long way to go. But and as she gets older, she's no doubt going to ask us challenging questions. But I think seeing her enthusiasm for the different stories reading seeing the way that she's that that's been a real faith builder. And there are some brilliant children's vibals out there that if you find the adult Bible a bit scary, that's a good place to start. - Yes, yes, definitely. I love that your daughter is sparing you on in your own pursuit of faith, because as parents, it's not always easy as it to carve out those times, but it sounds like she is positively adamant and faint. This is Bible time, mummy, let's do this. (laughing) - Several times a day, yeah. (laughing) - That's lovely. - And anything that you want to challenge listeners with Calder? - I think just to take your situations to God and to wrestle with Him, to really plug into the Bible, when you're particularly when you find anything's difficult, obviously, all the time, but not to be afraid to do that and to know that God hears you, he hears your hurt. We won't necessarily get the things that are our hearts desires, but we can trust maybe God has something better for us. And we can trust that all things are working together for our good. - That beautiful verse again from Romans 8, yes. And I think I'd love to wrap up just by finishing Calder with that phrase that your husband said to you. Can you just repeat that phrase? We live life forwards, but we understand it backwards. - Yes, I mean, isn't it amazing that as women of faith, we can say we wholeheartedly accept, even if we don't understand, that God does see the bigger picture. So often we're caught in the moment, we want the minutiae of detail to be sorted, and organized, and understood, but he sees the whole picture. And he saw your whole picture, your picture is ongoing, there are new facets to come. And I just wanted to say thank you for sharing from your heart and telling us some of the ways that God has been moving in your life and deepening your faith. And it's been really encouraging to hear it. So let's pray together, Calder. Let's pray for women listening to this episode, specifically that I think it would be amazing if we all get excited about God's international church that we're not constrained by any labels or sense of denomination that we see God uniting all of us. Also that of course we are wholeheartedly in making God first in our hearts and choosing His plan for our lives, whatever that might look like. Yeah, and just that sense of saying hustle while we wait, for women who have a dream, which hasn't yet been fulfilled, let's pray that we choose to hustle while we wait and look for those ways that we can actually say, I'm practicing or I'm just really enjoying these different skills. So will you pray for us? Absolutely. Thank you. Father God, we thank you that you are a God who sees us, you're a relational God, you know each of our individual circumstances. You know the joys in our lives, you know the pain in our lives. And we pray that we would be people who put you first, people who don't compromise. When that would involve you being second best, help us to trust you with all areas of our lives. I pray particularly for people who are in that waiting period, people who have dreams that have not been fulfilled. I pray particularly for people who are waiting on marriage or waiting on children. And those things seem such far off, dreams at the moment. I thank you that you know each and every situation. And yes, we know that praying to you doesn't mean that we will receive those things. But I pray that in the waiting that we would fix our eyes firmly on you and that we would learn to find contentment in you and in you alone. I pray that we would use our time wisely. So we would be hustling while we wait to really become who you've created us to be and to be becoming more like you every day. Amen. Amen. And Father, I just pray that there would be a fresh awakening in all of us for an excitement in reading the Bible. God, where it seemed inaccessible, where it seemed really tricky or just boring. Father, I pray that you would birth a fresh excitement and yeah, just, just boldness and a hunger in us for your word. Because as Kaelger said, it is so important for us to saturate ourselves in what you are saying rather than listening to the labels and the perceptions of the world around us. Help us to be women who are truly content in our circumstances because we put you first and we're looking for what you're doing. In Jesus name. Amen. Thank you so much for listening in to Carry Shales today with me, your host, Catherine Grimes, and our beautiful guest. And a big thank you to all the women who make Carry Shales podcast possible for your generous support. You know who you are and we are eternally grateful. A big thank you goes out to David Campion of Open Sky Media for editing and producing this episode. And this is where you come in. If you have enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by growing the Carry Shales community of women of faith. You can leave a review or a rating, pass the stories on and look for the stories in your own life as well. Thank you and look forward to talking with you next time.