[Music] Hello everyone, I'm Brian Ameral and welcome to the Clientelling Podcast. In each episode, we'll be talking to the retail industry's most knowledgeable and successful executives, those luminaries that are creating value with the intersection of retail and technology. In every episode, you'll hear about new, innovative and transformational customer-centered ideas that are redefining shopping and creating high-value customer experiences. If you haven't already done so, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and let your friends know by liking us on social media. So, let's get on with the show. Well hello and welcome to the Clientelling Podcast yet again. Today, we have Whitney Cathcart and she is the co-founder and chief commercial officer of 3D Look. 3D Look is a leading AI-based mobile body scanning and virtual fit and try-on startup for the fashion industry. She is herself a fashion and retail expert having worked in a peril manufacturing, retail in any commerce, with three decades of experience in senior leadership roles for leading branded apparel, celebrity licensing, and private label manufacturing companies. Whitney has also been certified by MIT Sloan School of Management and Artificial Intelligence and an important part of what they are doing at 3D Look. She is among one of the leading voices in retail innovation. Well, hello Whitney and it's great to have you on the show. Thanks so much for making a few minutes for me and my guests, my listeners, pardon me. And I'm happy to say that you and I have certainly spent some time on this crazy retail technology circuit over the last couple of years. And we've had some great conversations and I love some of the things you're doing. So thank you very much for getting on the show. Oh, no, and thank you for having me and it's always good to chat with you. Yeah, great. Well, looking forward to today's little chat here and sharing some information with our listeners. You know, you've been in the fashion apparel space for certainly more than a minute. And as a CCO of 3D look today, I guess, but, but prior to that, you've worked with some great brands. And, you know, I just thought that might be interesting for people to get a little bit of your backstory. So they kind of understand, you know, what you did before this. Yeah, I, more than a hot minute, I was in it for 30 years on the manufacturing side. I actually saw, I'll date myself a bit, but I actually started in luxury fashion in the late 80s. And I did not go to design school. I do not have a fashion background, but I've been doing it since I was, you know, just out of college. And I've always been on the manufacturing side. I always on the business side kind of worked my ways up. I was head of merchandising, I've been president, but always, you know, spending a lot of time with garments. And spent a lot of time in China. I've spent a lot of time on fit. So I know all the complexities behind that. And I've worked with everybody from, well, many now, sadly, defunct companies. But it really worked with everybody from, you know, Neiman, Marcus and Sacks and Bergdorf's, you know, to Walmart and Target and Coles. I've done celebrity licensing, built brands for these companies. So I've got a lot of background in manufacturing. Yeah. That's great. That is that that's super. So, you know, so what I want to understand now, and I'm sure everybody's kind of question is, okay, so you've done all this great stuff as a former german toe. And I say that in the most affectionate way, right? To what to really getting out there and becoming a co founder of 3D look with your with your partner, Vatem, you know, like, you know, tell me about, you know, why you did it. What was it that kind of drove you to think, hey, this is what really needs to happen. This is what I need to be spending my life doing. Yeah, it's a great question. I honestly back in about 2013, 14, 15, I was just really frustrated by the lack of innovation in the apparel industry in general. I lived in San Francisco, surrounded by high tech. And was very, very curious about kind of where, you know, things like AI was going to go where immersive technologies were going to go. So think anything having to do with 3D so AR VR XR. And I knew that for the back half of my career, I wanted to be on the tech side of the industry and how pull an industry that I really loved into the future. And one of the biggest challenges out there was going to be around fit because it's more and more, more and more business was moving online. Or I knew anyway that fit was going to become a problem, right, because as you're trying to guess what size you are online, it's a totally different experience and buying something in store where you're having that experience of having a fitting room. And that really led us to 3D look and we were very interested in crossing computer vision and mobile and creating a 3D model of a body and extracting measurements from it. And that was seven years ago. And here we are today. Well, this industry has changed with glacier like slowness as you know. And to that point, you know, I've been around the body scanning in the 3D virtualization space forever. So, as a matter of fact, going all the way back with some of the original body scanning and size fit and custom clothing projects that were going on with TC squared back in the 90s. Now I'm dating now I'm dating myself right. And I started before that looking at this. There's been a lot of companies that have tried this before. There have been a lot that have. And what's really interesting is, you know, we know. And we have known, you know, for decades that if you can create a three-dimensional representation and take measurements from that or in some way use it extract measurements in a non physical way from a physical form of a body that there's going to be great value in that for a lot of different reasons. But we're finally seen this explosion happen today. And it's and the real question is, why do you think that today it's really happening? I think we you kind of alluded to a little bit about it. But maybe you can talk about a little bit about, you know, why fit has become so important and you know, kind of the we look at all these trends and the convergence of all these different things that are happening if you're not online and stored all of that. Why is all of this really kind of exploding today? Yeah. So I think the reason why it's important is because fit has become a real problem that is detrimental to a brand of retailers bottom line. And that's really driven by the increase of return rates. But why is it becoming more pervasive today and why did other companies a decade ago, 20 years ago, who have tried this failed? There's I look at it kind of as a trifecta. So for starters, you have retailers being ready today to really address fit problems. And again, that's being driven by return rates. So this was not as big of a problem. I would argue even three years ago as it is right this second, and certainly not 10 or 20 years ago. So you've got the retail buy in today. You've also got tech, right? And how far, you know, things like neural nets have come computer vision algorithms. They're much more sophisticated today than they were 5, 10, 20 years ago, even in the last year. I mean, I don't need to talk about what's happening in Gen A. I right now. So you've got retail buy in. You have tech is, you know, leapfrogged over the last decade. And then the third piece of it is you have, you have a different consumer today, right? So you have a consumer that is shopping online. So they are far more digital than any other digit or any other generation. They care more about sustainability, right? And returns are a hassle. And then coupled with the fact that they're just more used to the camera, everything they do is on their mobile device. And everything they do is about taking a photo of themselves. So camera capture is more pervasive today than it has ever been. And we see that in our statistics from our own customers. Yeah, I think that's great. You know, the other thing it just occurred to me while you were saying, and this is coming, you know, from a guy who was just out shopping for clothing. And that is that, you know, as a guy that used to make clothing, let's say, what was that probably 20 years ago, or even more than that. You know, the fit of clothing was different. Just in general, how, particularly how a man wore clothing was different and in the underwear side of things. Today, it's much more form fitting. I mean, almost to the point where we would say, hey, that clothing is too tight that years ago, we said, how would a man wear coat that's that snug, you know, it's not the 1970s Brian. Well, it's not, I was going to go a little later than that, but thank you. But, I'm not getting to an age thing here. Okay, we don't have to do this right now with me. You know, we're all kind of wrestling with the same topics. But anyhow, no, the point being that I think that the actual demand for fit for a more accurate fit as people wear the clothing somewhat closer, slimmer fits have become really kind of what's on trend of the last several years. Because of that, it because there's more likelihood for people to return it because it's either too tight or it's too loose, but it's not fitting their form the way that they were imagining it. not fitting their head.
Ultimately, this technology is going to help people get what it is that they really want. And so I think that that's probably also adding a little bit to it. But I think your core point you made were right on-- Yeah, and I would also flip that a little bit and say that it's also about knowing your customer's bodies. And I know we're going to get into that a little bit. But 30 years ago, 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, more of us were shopping in stores. And when you go and do a store, you pick something you like off the rack and you grab multiple sizes of them and you take them into the fitting room. So fit has become more of a problem. Also, bodies have changed a lot over the last 10, 20, 30 years. And in addition to bodies changing, the psychology behind my body and customization, is also way more prevalent today. I mean, it was just not something that was spoken about in such a social way as it is certainly today. Yeah, certainly. So talk to me a little bit about-- as you know, a lot of our listeners are retailers. So what do you actually hearing them say about this whole size fit and virtual try-on technology? What's that adoption looking like? What are the mindsets of the people that are decision makers inside of retail today? Where are they going with all of this? And what are you hearing back from them? I know that there's been kind of the surge of interest, but just wondering what you're actually hearing from the field. Yeah, I mean, look, I don't know if it's that there's so much out there right now in the press on return rates. And there was a recent study done by poor site research. And I know return rates are up from where they were even a couple of years ago. They're saying that the average is about 24.4%. I will tell you that we have speak to many, many brands that, particularly in, I would say, dress categories and bottom categories where it's not unusual for us to talk to somebody who is saying, I have a real problem in a specific category. And we are seeing return rates that are 40, 50 plus percent. And so it's pretty hard to run a sustainable business when you're seeing return rates that high. And I think that's one thing that has really driven a shift in retail mentality. And I would say even over the last 12 months, right? So if you think about it, like we've been doing this since 2016. I mean, we didn't come out of beta until 2019. But since post COVID, in the last 24 months, and particularly the last 12 months, and certainly in 2023, I am definitely seeing fit and sizing becoming-- may not be the number one thing that a retailer brand CEO is looking at, but it's certainly within the top five. And it's really interesting, Brian, because there are two different ways to look at it. One is measurements around bodies. And then the other one is this idea around visualization, so virtual fitting rooms. And there's two ways to do that. It's truly you're looking at fit on some avatar that is supposed to be some representation of you. And the other one is more of a photo-realistic visualization that is more about-- I wonder what this looks like on me, right? So you're preempting with a fit tack. You're preempting the question that even like the biggest shop of holocaust, by the way, is a manufacturing background, still has problems with, which is answering those two questions of, I wonder what size I should buy in this brand. And I wonder what that's going to look like on me, you know? Yep. We're going to talk a little bit more about how this stuff can really address even at the manufacturing level with that is. But before we do that, I wanted to talk a little bit about-- kind of this whole transformation that's happening in Omni, I call it stories for that walls, where this transaction is happening, where it starts. It's before the sale, it's in the store, can be online, all of those sorts of things. But what specific behaviors or retailers do you think are trying to support today? And how does AI, in a particular, the kind of solution area that you have, how we really are addressing this next generation of stores without walls? And what are you seeing in terms of proof points of that from customers? Yeah. So I think it's about two things, really, when you boil it down. One is around personalization. So how well do you really know me? Right? You have a lot of behavioral data about me, follow me from site to site, maybe if I have a profile, you maybe even know my birthday. But what's the next generation of that? We're all busy. We have limited time. There's nothing worse than landing on a website or going into a store and seeing racks and racks of clothing and trying to figure out where you're buying this and that or landing on a website. And there's so many products on websites now and not having a good personalization engine. I think that makes for a terrible experience. So personalization, having that true 360 view of the consumer only becomes more important over the next decade. And or less. I mean, I don't even like to talk in decades anymore. I like to talk like three-year increments because what's happening in AI is moving things so, so quickly right now. But then the second piece of it is really around engagement, too. And I see that in stores that are addressing that. Maybe you're not going into the store now and you're having to walk through a sea of clothing and markdowns. But you're actually going in and having a really cool experience. And certain stores have done a better job of that as others. I think the ones that address that and create really cool in store experiences and have those be truly on the channel. There's nothing worse than buying something online and going into the store and the store is no idea who you are. Like that to me is an experience from 10 years ago. Unfortunately, it still happens today, which just mind boggles me because there's tons of software out there that helps me understand that true on the experience. And I feel like that word on me is really old now because every store should know who I am, whether I am touching them in an online way or touching them in the store. Every touch point needs to be visible to every constituent in that process of engaging the customer. So now you're dead on. So kind of similar to what you were just saying here, I want to talk a little bit about really your mobile tailor technology and kind of how scanning is impacting even the major business which we're seeing a lot of growth in that space over the last several years. I started out in that literally in the 80s, right? That was where I started my career and developing technology for that space. Took a lot of decades for it to finally start to hit more of a mainstream and be more pervasive. But I think in much the same way it was the issue of the retailers where ready the consumers are ready, the technology is ready, agile manufacturing is ready. All of those pieces started to come together. But as I think through all of this, there's been a major focus right over the last, let's say, last 15 years, it's all been around OK. So clientele, this is the clientelling podcast. We'll talk about clientelling being that one-to-one customer interaction before, during and after the sale. And everybody's trying to figure out how to do a better, a better job. Slice it, dice it, analyze and engage that customer in a more personalized relationship sort of way and give them that singular kind of experience. I really believe that in many respects, the logical extension of that is going to be a one-to-one product, right? This made to measure product is the logical extension of that. It's all that long tail stuff that people talk about, right? I want it my way. I want the experience my way. I want the product my way. But I thought maybe you could talk a little bit about your perspective around that because you have solutions out there that are being used by some of these emerging on-demand custom apparel, or at least made to measure sorts of manufacturers. So maybe you could talk a little bit about that. Yeah, we actually have a large growing list of customers that sit on mobile tailor. We're up to almost 60 customers on that product alone. I've definitely seen an increase in customization, and TM bespoke on-demand. They all feed in together. But our core tech is the underlying tech under both of our products. So the core technology is the trifective computer vision, deep learning, and 3D. And we're generating a 3D body model from a scan and from that 3D body model we compute about 86 measurements now. So we've definitely increased those over the years. The two products that sit on top of that are your fit, which is a size recommendation and visualization product for e-commerce. But mobile tailor is the only plug-and-play SaaS measuring solution on the market. And it uses our core technology, and it delivers measurements. And we've actually got use cases that are fairly vertical. So we've got a lot of men's companies, a lot of women's companies. We have companies in, you know, trees.
through bespoke suiting that retail over $2,000, we have brought all companies. We have Tuxedo rentals. We have companies that make race suits for Olympic athletes. We have bike-fitting companies, interestingly enough. You get measured for a bike when you go in. You have an hour-long experience. We do that in a couple of minutes. It's actually really interesting. We've even got a mattress-cussed company to personalize. We've got a bunch of measurements for mattresses. When I think of mobile tailor, I think about the precision and accuracy of human measurements to get into your best fit. Your best fit could be your buying a wedding gown or your buying a suit or buying a bike. Whatever it might be, your buying a wetsuit. We've got companies that do dive suits, dry suits and wetsuits. It's really interesting how that business has scaled for us organically over the last couple of years. We've got 68% retention rate on that product alone, meaning of customers that have been with us for over two years. Some of them are some of the world's largest uniform company. That's great. That's great. Defense contract. It's interesting. It's funny because I see a resurgence to getting dressed up again. You certainly see this in luxury. It's not just on the coast. I was in New York last week and everybody's dressed up. It's everywhere in my little town in Florida. People are getting dressed up again. I think it's very interesting to look at the resurrection of the spoke and need to measure. I think there's a real human need to have things. This is going to feed into the sustainability conversation. But a real need to have things that we keep in our closets for longer. There is one of my favorite quotes that I saw recently was there is enough clothes on the planet to dress the next six generations of the human race. If I look into my closet and my 24 year old Gen Z's closet, we could probably support a decade for somebody. I believe that. I've spent many decades in fabric mills and in factories. I can tell you that that is in fact a true statement. I think that's where you see this incredible acceptance of these resale platforms. I think we'll see more of them. We'll see more of that. Of the sustainability standpoint. Absolutely. You see it in food and beauty and you're seeing it in a parallel now. I think this whole idea around customization, know who I am, make things for me that are going to fit me so you're not forcing me to return things or bracket. Either make it for me directly or make it fit me so well that I'm getting that personal opportunity. I put to make it fit. One layer another. Don't miss the mark. We don't need to miss the mark anymore. He can't use an old fit block and think it's going to fit the amazing amount of body shapes and body dimensions we have in the bit. Sure, we all look differently. It's not like all of a sudden in 2023. We look different today than we did 10 years ago. The big differences, social media and this voice that I am mean no matter what I look like. All these decades, and I can say this because I created brands, we created brands. We decided that we were going to deliver you, you know, pink and June and all of for back to school and red and October to get ready for Christmas. Other consumers wanted it or not. And today the consumer is in roversy. That's absolutely flipped. Yep. Yeah. Those days are done. All right. So let's talk. This is great. Let's talk a little bit about, I guess in general about measurement and value coming from all this. You know, there's an old adage. You can't manage what you don't measure, right? And, you know, so what I wanted to really understand and I'm sure my listeners want to understand is how are brands thinking about performance and metrics as retailers or as brands. And maybe you can walk us through some of those key metrics that they're monitoring today. And what are the implications of having access to that information? And maybe you can talk a little bit about, you know, how they're communicating that through the organization and how are they using that to really address the change of what's happening in their organization. So there are a lot of questions packed into that. So you might have to, I may now that I'm old. I like to start with this. Yeah. Talk to me about how people are gaining value from it. And, you know, we can also do, I'm going to even make this easier for you because I actually skipped over a question that would have made this quicker to answer because you would have covered it in the earlier one. So this is on me. This is me getting old. But, you know, we talk about data being central to everything. I'd love to hear you talk about how aggregated data is being used. Yeah. And, you know, we have to make better products. Right. There are three things here. One is body data. And what do we do with that? First, we have to get the body data, right? And so that falls into under your fit, which is our e-commerce solution. What is important to the brand? Always, always our conversions, right? So what they care about and what, one of the first questions they ask are conversions. We're conversions and return rates. And by the way, AOV matters, right? So we see in for consumers that use our your fit widget, we see increases in conversions. We see on average AOV increases. It depends on the brand. It depends on the product. It depends on the customer. But anywhere between 25% and 35%. Camera flow. Do people do take pictures? Biggest change we've seen between 2020, June and 2023 is the completion rate in our camera flow. And our camera flow completion rate across our your fit customers, and this is kind of an average number, is 86%. So that's a big number, right? And what does that say? That says that big initiatives that have happened, whether it's Walmart, you know, with their initiative on virtual dressing, whether it's Snap and what they're doing, there is this pervasiveness around camera capture that we did not see a year ago. And that will only increase like this idea that you're not going to know what my body is, which is very different than my quiz preferences, right? But actually understanding my consumer body is very different. So that's one piece of it. It's really interesting because on the mobile tailor side, which is more the customization to MTM that bespoke, the metrics that they're looking for are really different. And it's kind of interesting to look at these. So on that side, it's how are you reducing my alteration costs? How are you reducing my remakes? Right? So it's all about cost cutting, which is super interesting, right? It's about time, time consumption, like the time it takes to measure a human being, right, versus 3D scanning, which by the way is also more consistent. It's also around consistency. We have a customer who I met with last week who was saying we had four master tailors all trained the same way. We had such high remakes cost because they were all measuring a little bit differently. They're laying had no consistency, right? And then the other piece there on the mobile tailor side is expansion of customer acquisition, right? So if you're an MTM and you've got to store in New York and you want to appeal to a greater group of potential customers, you used to have to send them to the local tailor and then you're getting measurements from all different people. So it's about being able to reach a younger generation who expect digital. If you were getting married and you're in your 25 and your groomsmen are spread all over, your bridesmaids are spread all over. It's an effective way to do it. Measurements. We're taking a lot of tape measure. We've seen people take out a ruler to measure themselves. So when people say, "Well, how do you measure accuracy?" I'm like, "Well, what is your baseline?" The problem we have defense contracts should probably answer that question. Yeah, I got it. The third piece which we're just now beginning to see with big brands and retailers is the site. A RAM body data, right? We have seen in the last three months, more big companies come to us about helping them understand their customers because their return rates are so high and how do we address fit blocks? How do we address grading? When I started 3D luck, one of my dreams for 3D luck was that someday we would enable a world where we are not a small, medium, large, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, whatever we are, but that we are cryon size or we are Whitney size. There's a famous CEO and I said it first. I will always go on the record saying that because I think we had started before you would see you. But anyway.
This understanding of how do your customers fit into the products the way you are already building them, right? And then what are the opportunities to revise some of these fit box to revise grading rules? Is there a world in which you don't just have a, you know, two, four, six, eight, ten, but there's a 6.5 or something like that, right? Because most of us don't fit in the grade that the brand is creating. But yeah, it's the grading and even the models and, you know, there's difference. Like a model is supposed to fit a certain way. And you know, it's, it's so complicated. I did a project several years ago where we were doing size fit recommendation by scraping a lot of stats of about 70,000 shirts and looking at the match of all of this. And it was so interesting to see just the amount of variability in even like a 1534 classic fit shirt, the amount of variability in the over skin measurement estimate for each one of those was like it was massive. And it's a guy that came out of custom clothing. I was, I was shocked to see how much variability there was. And so the size fit thing really kind of came down to, you know, figuring out what body was going to fit in which model by which manufacturer. And it's the same kind of thing. They don't have the data. And what you're able to do and this technology is able to do now is to give these manufacturers data that really represents what their customers look like. And perhaps to start looking at a better taxonomy for fit. If we're going to have to have manually, you know, and we did, I did a body data presentation this morning to one of our long term customers. And what we found was that almost 80% of their female customers were shorter than their fit model by multiple individuals. Yeah. So they've got a problem start with. And focuses on bottoms. So think about what that does to your in-scene, right? And we've seen this before, but I think like part of the future of brand is really understanding who your customers are and how many of them are really fitting into your products. And then the big thing is what are the opportunities? And that's a real mind shift in process and in thinking, right? Because that is not the way we have grown up in the garment industry, right? But unfortunately, there's no standardization. And I got to tell you this idea that we should standardize makes no sense to me because customers aren't standard. We are all different and we are not, we do not all look the same. So when people who don't really know what they're talking about say that to me, I just kind of laugh. Like, are you going to take your fit system and standardize fit? And I'm like, well, and the world I live in, no two people really look the same. Like we might have the same height and weight and yet our bodies are really different. So really understanding body shapes, right? If your fit model is a particular body shape and we're coming in and slicing and dicing and looking at what your customers look like, you know, if you've got a pear-shaped fit model and you've got 60% of your women customers that are rectangle shape, right there, you're going to have problems and serve the rising, right? That to me is the most fascinating part about what we do. I think with all this data, as all this data becomes more pervasive, I think that brands are going to start to think about sizing and models and like how they basically design to that target audience within certain, you know, subcategory. How we are, I'm, I'm, we are. They're going to have to look at their businesses differently. And we're seeing that we are here. As I guaranteed you before we started, we were going to go longer than we probably should on this. So we're already kind of there because you and I could talk about this stuff all day long. But before we wrap up here, I like to wrap the show with some sage advice for listeners. And so what advice would you give, you know, retailers and manufacturers that are either can, that are kind of considering this three-dimensional body scanning, the virtual triumphs size fit technology? One of the things that they just should be thinking about as they start to pursue this analyze and look at their future where these technologies fit into it. Yeah. So it's a good question. I mean, I think it comes down into three things. Number one is you've got to lean into it and you need to educate your customer, right? You need to, our customers that have dedicated branded landing pages about the implications of returns and why scanning is important. Trust the recommendation, stop-racketing, sustainability, all of those things. So that's kind of one piece of it. The second piece of it is really about knowing your customer. We didn't even get to client telling, right? But like our tech is also being used on the client telling side. So if I'm a customer and I'm going to buy a particularly inexpensive dress perhaps, and I'm calling the customer support team, they have no idea what I look like. And if they say, can you tell me what your measurements are, 90% of consumers do not know what their measurements are. So that's not a good way to go at it. So really know who your customers are. If I can make one comment to that, just my client telling perspective and that is this. A client telling is shifting from an in-store experience to more and more of it happening through live streaming and kind of virtual engagement. So this ties in absolutely beauty. That's why I was so excited to get you on to it. We probably could have spent a little time talking about that. The idea of that virtual size and fit happening in a live stream that is approximating just what it would be like to be engaging in a one-to-one experience inside the store. It all mesh beautifully. You don't think you're chocolateing, literally, right? So if you're trying to cut down on CS and use bots, you can feed a scanning link into it. I mean, there are just so many ways that you can use it. Anyway, that's all about knowing your customer, understanding your customer, providing really great experiences for your customers. It's about knowing who I am, right? Right, right. Like, know who I am. It's pretty simple. We expect it, particularly younger. The third thing that I think is so critical, and this, I mean, it's important to 3D look, but it's really important in general. The world is shifting into 3D, whether people want to realize it or not, but we are moving into a 3D component in our world. If you are not digitizing your products, whether you're selling furniture, and I wanted to look at what your furniture is going to look like in AR, in my home, it's no different than it is with garments. And the ones that are not embracing the digitization of their products are really going to be left behind. And there's this thought process out there that it's so expensive. There's so many companies that are enabling 3D now of garments, and we will see many, many more. And it's getting easier and it's getting cheaper. But it's like, it's really, really important. It's like sending me a tech pack and an Excel spreadsheet, right? Like, come on, embrace technology because it ultimately makes your life easier. But 3D is so, so critical. And it's just like that. We're virtualizing everything, right? That digital twang, it's where it's going. And everybody has to be thinking about how to make investments in that, and where they're going to be in the future. That's some great advice. I can't thank you enough for finding a few minutes. I know how busy you are. So I really do appreciate you finding a few minutes to join us. If somebody wanted to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that? Whitney at 3DLook.me. Okay. I know. Feel free to talk about you. You can also message me on LinkedIn, Whitney, Caff Cart, look for me under 3D Look. I'll put all of that in the show notes. And so people, if you just click through and you'll be able to reach Whitney under a few different channels here. But certainly check out what they're doing. They're doing some great stuff and very excited to have had you here on the show. Thank you so much. And we'll have to do this again, I think, in the not too distant future. But in the meantime, continue success with 3D Look. Thank you, Brian. Good to speak to you as always. I already take care. Bye-bye. Bye. [Music] Well, that's today's show. Thank you for listening. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and like us on social media. Or drop me a line at
[email protected]. If you'd like to learn more about what we do at Clientricity, visit www.Clientricity.net. Until next time, stay well and go do something amazing for your customers. [Music]
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