An inflection point in the region + a conversation on education, learning, and training in the AI age

okay this is a 2030 episode 69 welcome back everybody hi hannah nice to see you it's been a minute what's up it has been some time uh not much is up how are you good i am back in the united states for one more day i've been here for about five days and yet we just moved the family back here for the summer took uh a little bit earlier than we thought we seized the timing of what was going on in the region and decided it was kind of a good time to and also not just what's going on in the region but also it's getting a little warm for my uh super pale turning pink babies in the sunshine so it decided that it was a good time to come back here to st michael's and yeah i'll be returning back in a day not looking forward to another 14 hour flight but it's okay everything is great tell me about your flight from rio to uh to dc how was that for you yeah uh it was as you might imagine a flight with a five four and one year old being one and a half actually uh preferable to have a one year old and not a one and a half year old it was it was eventful so let me just start with a good totally empty flight on the way back i mean like when i say totally empty i mean no one in the back third of the of the plane so maybe 40 rows or something like that whatever it is 30 i don't know empty so it was my family back there and no one else more or less some people came back to lay down flat in the middle ones but that was kind of it whoever did that made a huge mistake because baby george was not having that flight he did not want to sleep and he was uncomfortable or something but yeah no i mean that was that was not a pleasant experience that's why you make those trips twice a year when you have a family like this and then come and go as needed but yeah no i mean other than that it was it was good very long and actually had the worst jet lag i've had coming back usually it's really not a problem coming back here uh this time was for some reason just next level waking up super early which is nice but when it's too early not great but it's perfect here weather's amazing uh pollen allergies but other than that i'm okay so yeah and then i'll head back tomorrow how so what do you think of the flight so i think it's a great flight i think it's a great flight i think what have you been up to tell me everything how are things yeah maybe before that like so things are alhamdulillah things are good i'm in london i have been here throughout um you know the conflict and all of the events happening in the region haven't seen my family i had so much travel planned uh for april that i didn't get to do which i'm a little bit sad about because um there were very exciting things but also i miss i miss being in saudi uh but you know with two kids in school here and some uncertainty it's important to to kind of just stay put and be be present for my boys so that's what i've been trying to do uh but also really really busy at work and there's been a lot going on i'd love to give you a bit of an update but before that should we talk about like kind of the break that we just took and recording and kind of what we expect to do going forward yeah i just want to add to that i mean it it's saudi felt very safe it was yeah i think it's been a really great experience and i think it's been a really by and large safe the issue with coming and going from the region is trying to plan around airspace yeah and so anytime that we heard any activity in the skies above the first thing that i would do is open up flight radar and be like what's going on because the best indicator of what was happening in the moment and you would kind of see the planes make a you know drawing a j in the sky you're like yep something's up here so yeah but let's talk about what we uh that that we are back and take it from there and and i'll pass it over to you sure i'm i mean i think we talked about this and we even you know we had that linkedin post where we let everybody know that everybody that follows us on linkedin that uh we're taking a bit of a break mostly because we're not political analysts um as much as we might have opinions like everybody else this is not the space that we work in and therefore we would give people space to listen to the news and the analysis that experts and we could um we could take a little bit of a break while we are also very busy professionally doing things that we do um because believe it or not the podcast isn't our first job even if it is an exciting one um so yeah i think that there was a lot a lot that we had to focus on and i agree with the idea that you know when there are events that are a little bit you know uh destabilizing maybe it's not the right time to be talking about uh cultural and social developments um because they affect them right but at the same time i do think that there's still so much happening in saudi and like you said it feels safe it is safe things are you know things are moving ahead for the most part in a lot of the different areas of development that we have been covering and everybody that i know that's in saudi all the saudis that are working on fun projects and initiatives still are working on them to some degree or another and therefore you know it's not like things have stopped but i do think that it's a moment of reflection for sure i was talking with a friend of mine uh a woman who is almost like a mentor to me she's wonderful and we had dinner recently in riyadh before i left and she was talking about how security and you know just feeling safe is kind of the foundation of everything that we do so like if you're in order to you know eat and in order to go to the playground and do anything in life work you need to be and feel secure and if you don't if you aren't secure you don't feel secure then that's where your mind ends up going no matter what i mean so and i felt it in the moment when there was activity over riyadh it was like you know twitter was kind of addicting i wanted to know what's going on and i don't i didn't feel like that was because i was like especially curious other than just being innately attuned to the security situation on the ground the eastern province of course had a lot more uh was under threat a lot more and so it was funny when when we had checked in with each other during the time you're like well riyadh you know riyadh's pretty chill i'm getting these these notices from the eastern province saying hey like pretty much every day something is going on the other thing that kind of factored into the decision to step back just a little bit is you know the news cycle i during this conflict seemed not just faster than normal but also there was so much like bs out there and like with ai and everything it was hard to really know what was going on and it was hard to kind of stay up on events for us as podcasters you know a day later when the episode comes out what we say may be expired in terms of value but a week later almost certainly would be the case and so that was kind of we were thinking about like we don't want to be change what we're doing we like what we're doing we think it adds an enormous amount of value but in that moment it didn't make a ton of sense to continue and it also felt in some ways like maybe it was a bit silly to you know have these discussions i mean not actually but it just kind of felt like a bad fit for the moment also i don't know if you like kind of saw this but this was a chance this window and it still is for people that want to do hot takes and commentary on social media and news sites to do that and really lean into that and that's just not that's like the opposite of what we do uh i mean i have plenty of political opinions and hot takes nobody wants to hear them but that's sort of what factored in into the decision and we are also professionally busy as well so it just felt like a really good time to step back and it was nice to have a a bit of a break but i'm really excited to be back with you i mean this is like the fun thing i do uh for for quote-unquote work so uh looking forward to getting back onto a schedule and doing this again regularly likewise i mean i do think the only thing is that it came on the back of another break that we had just yeah bad yeah sorry everybody yep that's okay i don't know i don't know that people really missed us i feel like some people did i think you got some feedback i got a little bit of feedback too but i think that the main thing for me is um i think we have a new strategy anyway which is we're not doing news so that was great because we didn't have to worry about covering news that was going to get expired um but we also decided to do a little bit of a break we're not going to be doing you know um kind of some of the the more i guess we're not going to be covering the issues that aren't in line with the things that we're interested in and excited about talking through and unpacking for our listeners and viewers and therefore i'm happy that we are now back so we can take that new strategy and actually move forward with it i'm so actually i'm so excited to be back with you and i'm so excited to be back with you and i'm so there's a lot going on there's a lot to talk about and there's a lot like i think that one of the things some of the people that reached out gave us ideas for episodes that we should be doing things that we should be covering some of them felt like a good fit some of them not so much some of them maybe just not the right time but i do think now um i'm yeah let's let's let's do this yeah and i think there's gonna be i mean this is a uh inflection point in happening in the region and what's happening in Saudi Arabia, I think a lot is going to change. change as a result of this conflict. And, you know, there's like the surface level stuff of like what's happening in defense and security and diplomacy. And then I think there's the knock on effects of all of that and the conflict on business, trade, and then also culture, ideas, conference. There's so much happening in Saudi Arabia already. So everything is already kind of moved by this in some way. And so there's going to be a lot to talk about. Yeah. I also got a few people saying, hey, you know, I have an idea for an episode in case you're low on ideas. And it's like, hey, you actually got plenty of ideas, actually too many ideas. And it's a sort of strategic decision to not do that. And kind of to add to your point, I mean, there's stuff that I really like doing about this podcast. I think talking about Saudi Arabia, both as somebody who like lives there half the year and more than that this year, and somebody who really likes it. I mean, a genuine. Living there, I really like working there. And it's very different than my life here. And I love that. A lot of people ask questions about Saudi Arabia. They're just never going to find somebody's opinion on the answer to them on social media. Never. And so that's where we fit in. I love doing that, but I don't like doing quick hit news stuff. I don't want to talk about some news development that three days later may change or become irrelevant. Just not really a good use of our time. And I love just sort of having this space. With you to hear from you and from other guests that are Saudi, things about Saudi Arabia that I don't know. I mean, this is educational for me. And if it's educational for me, it'll probably be educational for many others. And so that's what we want to do. And so that's what we're going to do because it's our show. So yes. Yeah. I mean, if you didn't know, I also love Saudi being from there and having grown up there and my whole family and my friends and my network being there. Um, and so when things are uncertain, it is very difficult. And therefore, um, I am always really happy to step in and tell people what it really feels like to be there, what it feels like to be from there and what it feels like to be from there and experiencing things while I'm not there. And I think that people are interested in that perspective because first of all, it's relatable when you're outside of Saudi. So when I speak to people here in the UK and they know that I've lived here for as many years as I have, they'll listen to me because they think that we can, like, we start off on a level playing field to begin with, like we might be neighbors or work in the same space or have kids in the same school. And so they know that they can listen and trust me. And they also probably think that they can trust my opinion. And, you know, I've always talked about my children being ambassadors because they're Saudi and they're in schools here. And people meet them and talk to them. And I feel like I've always played that role because I've always been a person with a foot in both cultures. So I love being able to do that and cover these stories and tell the real stories of people and humans that I love and that I care for and that are doing incredible things in Saudi. And there's so much of that. So let's keep covering it. Yeah. And we can't generalize. I mean, when I come back to the United States of America and I'm not I'm in St. Michael's, Maryland, which is about 90 minutes from the city. It's not a no, it's not a global hub for pretty much anything except for crabs and sailing, but and golf. But it's interesting because the questions I'm so interested in the questions that people genuinely ask me about Saudi Arabia. This coming back this time, the questions were, you know, 10x on what's going on in the region. Did you feel safe? What was it like? What's going to happen? And what I say to people and they ask, like, are you excited to be back? Do you miss it? Et cetera, et cetera. I do miss it. I love the life that my family and I have there. I also love the life that my family and I have here. But one thing that I love about Saudis and that I think it's really impossible to understand about, and I don't want to generalize it, but this is just my experience. If you haven't gone to Saudi Arabia or visited Saudi Arabia and, you know, there are many cities in Saudi Arabia, so they're all different. I don't want to generalize it, but this is just my But people are just so authentic and warm. And I can't even think of a moment where they haven't been. It's hardwired into y'all's DNA or something, but it's just something that makes it very pleasant for us to live there. And I miss that. And I've only been here five days. I'm going to get more of it in a couple of days, but I do miss that genuinely. So, yeah. Yeah. I miss it too. Yeah. So when are you, you have some plans to maybe come back? Ports and airspace permitting in the coming months, maybe. It's possible. You know, honestly, at the moment, my son, who is 16, has GCSEs. He's in the British school system. So that's the General Certificate of Secondary Education. These are public exams. Now, I went through the Saudi school system and the public exams in Saudi are usually at the end of 12th grade. You have two weeks of tests. Um, this is two months of tests. He has 22 exams because it's not like one math test. It's like four different math tests for the same subject. Right. And so it's split up like that and it's spread across many, many weeks. And so I'm probably not coming because I want to be around him as much as I possibly can be through this period, supporting him, you know, hopefully maybe baking some cookies or whatever, uh, taking him out for a walk. Ice cream, going for a walk when things get stressful. He's very prepared, but it's still a lot of time and a lot of pressure to be exposed to this level of, uh, examination and testing. So, so that might be one reason why I don't come. A personal thing that's happening in my life. But other than that, um, inshallah soon I have, you know, my family and I often meet outside of Saudi during the summer because of other life circumstances. So I don't know if it, when it will be, but I maybe we'll try and sneak in a trip here or there. I miss it. I was traveling so much to Saudi over the past year and a half for work that not coming just feels so awkward. People are like, well, Oh yeah, you must be traveling. And I'm like, actually I haven't been. Yeah. And it feels really weird. And I also, you know, I like it cause there's a little bit of consistency and stability and like my trainer at the gym, it's like, you're here all the time now. And so it's nice, but at the same time, I do, um, I do miss being there. So we'll see. Yeah. Nothing more important than family. I should let you know, actually, I have not told you this, uh, that the, my two older kids will be entering the school system in Riyadh at this. It starts in August, which is so ridiculous. Like, what is that? I don't know. It's kind of new. It wasn't like that when I was a kid. Yeah. Um, nor should it be now, but anyway, so the family will move back around beginning of August. Good God. But, um, they will be entering the British school system, despite my, you know, objections that they become, you know, whatever the American version of the British school system is, but, uh, that's, that's the choice. So maybe they'll pick up an accent or two, who knows? I mean, it's a very international kind of situation there. So, but yeah, you chalk that up as a win for you. Uh, the accent, I mean, I'm, I'm sure they won't, but what I will say is the British curriculum is actually incredibly robust. And, and especially, you know, uh, like if you have a good environment and good teachers and a well resourced school, it is my favorite curriculum. It is so good. It is so good. So. Yeah. Okay. Well, if they do pick up an accent, then after school, we'll have after school activities with daddy. I'm going to put up the whiteboard and be like, this is how you say all these words. Don't, we're going to learn the American accent because it can't because Coco already has a bit of one. That doesn't happen in schools. That happens with your peers. So if you're saying it's super international, then that's not likely, but who knows where, who, who her friends are. Right. So I don't know. My, my kids came to the UK when they were quite young, four and one, well, five almost. Um, and my now 16 year old's accent is still like to the Brits still sounds very American because he had a really solid foundation. You, my 16 year old, not my 12 year old. My 12 year old is British through and through. Okay. But my older son has a, I mean, to an American, there's a, there's a little bit of a twang there. It's not fully British, but to a Brit, it does not sound British versus Ferris, who sounds quite British. Okay. Yeah. Because sometimes Ferris, like I hear you talking to him on the, on the background of calls and I'm like, who, who the hell is that? There's a British person in your house. Yeah. And it's like your British son. I think a good mixture is like right down the middle, where you don't really have any of the kind of American twangs you called it. Um, and but, but you can understand what the British people are saying, which is really difficult for me anyway. Is it? Yeah, man. When I watch like Downton Abbey, I've got to have the subbies on. If I don't have subtitles, I'm like, what the hell did he just say? Downton Abbey? Like those are the most understandable British accents. Are you joking? Oh, we need to take you to Newcastle. Yeah, or like these guys I follow on Instagram, I follow them just for their art. accent and i'm just like first of all they're from the north yeah they're from the north and i i follow several that are like drunks and they're basically drunk uh british people that talk on instagram and i like talking about whatever and they have subtitles so i actually know what they're saying but i always i watch because i'm like how do i know what this guy would be saying if i didn't have like live subtitles maybe i'll wear vision pro or whatever when i'm walking around but anyway digression we gotta i haven't seen you in forever so you know we're gonna go off on some tangents anyway what have you been up to professionally give us all the update and we should kind of do a little caveat here we're not doing like a we don't have an interview we're not going to do a deep dive to the we're back uh kind of episode and just kind of give everybody an update and talk about what we're doing so why don't you talk about what you've been up to in the past six seven weeks eight weeks maybe goodness um so i probably have to like open my email inbox yeah you want to pull up a pitch deck here and yeah so i've been doing some really interesting work um i recently started a new company which is focused on what we call ourselves the mission-led innovation agency um but i have some business partners who i've worked with um kind of on different projects and now we work together on more projects so we're an ed tech company and i kind of basically bring their research and pedagogy and expertise on kind of teaching learning but also insights and engaging with young people and understanding kind of people's sentiments and kind of doing qualitative research uh data collection and analysis to this table and we look at some of those gaps that we find in the market in the education space and then think about developing solutions digitally mostly um that have an incredible ux ui and beautiful brand infrastructure so we do the three of those things concurrently and like for instance we built a career guidance platform for saudi that's ready to launch very soon really excited about that it's very intuitive the way you use it and it links up the career journey from inspiration to developing pathways to some learning modules inside on the skills that you might need but it really is an inspiration piece rather than a piece where we're helping you find a job or a university or something like that so i'm really excited about that university or a piece where we're helping you progress within a career. It's more for younger students that are in like secondary, but also maybe even intermediate school thinking about the world of work and how opaque it is. So we're trying to kind of elevate stories of career journeys for people and really bring those stories to life through the platform and then enable the young people to really kind of think about charting their pathways. So that's one thing. But my existing company, which is my education strategy consultancy, Prola Gomina, we have been working a lot on education strategy, different clients. So I've been working a little bit on different family companies, thinking about developing the next generation, but not necessarily succession planning or kind of governance or family charters or anything like that. It's more about thinking of what skills and competencies people need within family organizations. So I've been doing work around that, but also then broader work on, you know, consulting on what are the key trending issues within education. I did quite a big piece on the idea of AI and responsible AI literacy within the education space for a project, which may one day see the light of day, I don't know. But that was really fun, just kind of really, really mapping that landscape. And AI is obviously huge and trending in the world. But when you think about regulations in AI, around AI in schools, it's a very different piece, because you're talking about safety of young people, you're talking about mental health for young people. And it's a really important thing to think about, you know, what responsible AI use in education and learning and kind of training institutions looks like. So that's something that I've been doing quite a bit of work on, which has been really fun. And I think it's a really important thing to think about. I also just finished a diploma in board leadership, which I'm super excited about from IMD in Switzerland. Yes. So I, you know, it's been a long journey for me because I started a couple of years ago. But if you miss one of these in-person sessions, sometimes you have to wait a year before you can do it again. So, but I finished that. So I'm certified and I'm really close to finally, finally finalizing my certificate. Well, so this time it's from the Arab Career Development Association, but it's affiliated and accredited by the Global Career Development Association. And so I will also finally, I do this anyways, but I will finally be a qualified career guidance professional instead of just doing it because I do the research in that space. An unlicensed advisor. Yeah, but I've talked to hundreds and hundreds of students is what my thesis is on. Like, it's an area of research that I've been doing for a long time. And I've been doing it for a long time. And I've been area I can, but I wasn't licensed, but now I will find, like, I'm done. I've, I've done that. I've like, so I've worked on two qualifications, which is funny. Cause like you think, you don't need anything else, but I know where there are gaps in my learning and I'm a lifelong learner in general. So those are some of the things, I don't know. There's a lot. There are, there are other things. Oh, a book. There's a book coming out soon too. Wow. So you, you've been really busy. Okay. Wait, but okay. Tell me about the book and I want to do some follow-up questions. Actually, one of the things I did in the meantime, I'm coming right back to you. I promise. But I listened to our, the first podcast episode that we did together on another platform, which is more or less how we, at the very beginning of us meeting a couple of years ago, I remember I was like, Whoa, this is weird. Anyway, continue, continue. And then I have some follow-ups. So I can't really talk too much about the book yet because it's forthcoming in September, 2026, but, uh, it's an edited volume. I was one of the three editors on it. Uh, and I have a chapter in it as well. And it's just, I'm really excited. Uh, but having the, you know, having the landing page, it exists. We're just not ready to talk about it yet because we still are going to send out proofs to the authors. Um, it's seven chapters are authors from around the GCC. It is about women. And, um, my chapter is actually from my thesis. So it's one of the, the big topics that I wrote about in my thesis, looking at how young women look at TVET and opportunities with vocational education. And I think it's a really, really good book. And I in Saudi. So the data is a little bit outdated, but the analysis still stands, I would say. Um, so it's a bit updated, but yeah, derived from my thesis. So it's always lovely to publish from my thesis. I have a few articles out there already that were from my thesis and journals and in different books, but I have a new chapter out in Mark Thompson's book, which just came out like earlier, I think in the beginning of Ramadan, uh, on how that's much more recent data looking at young people's, um, perceptions of vocational education and how development in Saudi around, uh, the giga projects is changing people's perceptions of career pathways. And now I have this edited volume where my chapter in it specifically looks at, um, yeah, it looks at the, uh, the role, the way women think about their, their careers in, um, vocational education. And it's, it's again, a book that I co-edited. So I'm very excited that that's coming out. So there's more, but like, let's just stop there. Okay. Okay. First, first follow-up question. I had another one, but this one, so are you going to, is it going to be an audio book? Cause I do a lot of audio books. And if so, do you get to read it into like a microphone or whatever? So it is an edited academic book. There is no plan for it to be an audio book, but you know, and now that you've asked that question, I might, I might like, yeah, why not? I might pitch it. Are you going to fund that? So you can listen to it. Yeah. I, you know what, I would buy it. I don't know. Uh, yeah, whatever. I, what I'd actually probably do is have AI like reconstruct your voice and then have you read it in the thing, you know, but yeah, I don't know. But my second follow-up question is, so we don't want to get too much into forecasting and we don't, this is a what's up we're back on episode, but I've seen, and probably from your LinkedIn a lot on how education is going to change in the aftermath of this conflict during the pandemic. And I think that's, I think that's a really good question. How it has changed. Can you, can you talk to us about that a little bit? Cause I'm curious about that. So it's really interesting. I, yeah, I really like a dear colleague, uh, from Kuwait wrote up, I wrote an article on this for the Gulf, uh, international forum, uh, really looking at how, you know, this, it mirrors a lot of what was happening during COVID. So a lot of, especially in the region, and this is something that not a whole lot of people actually outside of the region for not, not everybody, but for a lot of the students in the region, education went remote quite quickly, um, for both K through 12, as well as higher education institutions in places like the UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait, education went online quite quickly because of safety concerns. Now, the thing is, and what Ibrahim was talking about, and it's a thing that a really dear colleague of mine, um, Dixie O'Donnell also writes about quite a bit is, um, the fact that, you know, I think that we're going to have to take another moment now to really step back and evaluate how we deal with conflict or crises. within the education space, because I think that we are quite reactive. And it was great that we already knew how to go online because of COVID. But at the same time, I don't think that we continue to improve what that looks like. And being out of school can have an incredible toll on young people's mental health. And in a time now, so it's quite different from COVID in the sense that people now have access to AI. And it's more important than ever to show up in person to things in order to really learn face to face. Otherwise, kids are going to stop learning because it's very easy to rely on AI and outsource every single assignment that you have to do if you're not in the room with somebody. So we need to be a little bit more tactile. We need to learn with each other. We need to do hands-on learning. We need to do hands-on projects. We need to discuss, understand how AI got to some sort of conclusion and question that. What's the logic behind it? What is the reason? How did you get to that conclusion? And we don't have the space and time and the capacity as teachers or as students to be doing that in a time of crisis. And so I do think there needs to be a moment now where we reflect and think, what is our risk management strategy? How are we going to address this? In order to make sure that we do take care of the well-being of the students, the teachers, the administrators, and the parents in times of disruption, in order to make sure that that learning doesn't go away and that there is a way to continue to provide a space for people to engage in information. Because there are setbacks. There are real setbacks that happen. I mean, in the UAE, for instance, people that were in the British system, they used their mocks as grades. So they canceled the final, like kids that are my son's age are not doing the GCSEs. They're using, because they did mocks in, so mocks are kind of like taking the test, but you're not really using that final grade to submit it. But it still is like based on past papers and real tests. So a lot of kids didn't do great in the mocks. They didn't take them that seriously. Those are the grades that now get submitted for university applications, for instance. Now, you didn't know that this was coming. Therefore, you didn't know that this was coming. So you didn't know that this was coming. Therefore, you took the mocks as a thing that like, oh, yeah, this is December, but my actual tests are in May and June. So it doesn't matter. It does matter for a lot of these kids now. So, OK, backtracking. My top two universities are probably not going to accept me based on my mocks. So what am I going to do now? And you get into a scramble. And when that's one family, that's one thing. But this is thousands of students. And so universities, just the level of work that you're going to have to do in backtracking, it's a lot of work, plus the mental health toll, plus the planning and the deposits and all of the other things, right? We need a better, really, really, really well thought out, integrated contingency plan that's in place, a readiness plan, right? And the last thing I'll say to that is I think that, you know, from my perspective, again, somebody that works a lot on what kind of thinking about what young people aspire to do in life, times of uncertainty also elevate the levels of anxiety about the future of work, my future career. What am I going to do? What do I know? How is this going to be relevant? And so we need more career guidance and we need people that are trained in offering that career guidance in times of uncertainty. And we need to know when when it's a career situation and when it's a mental health situation, when you need to refer somebody to a specialist, to a psychologist or a psychiatrist that can help with some of that anxiety. Otherwise, people do, end up in really bad places. And we, you know, we are really, really happy to treat a rash or a sore throat. But we're really, really good at trying to bury mental health issues as something that will pass. But actually, you know, it's it's the one time when you actually should be rushing to the doctor because those are the things that fester, especially when you're young. People's minds are very plastic and you can really help overcome some of the learning challenges and the anxiety that comes with times of conflict. And uncertainty if you work with young people quite early. And sometimes, you know, we're quick to dismiss that because it's where the really hard work happens. So conflict and COVID aside, you have this huge ongoing change in education, not just education for youth, but education for all people with AI. It's kind of insane because I think about this all the time. I mean, what is going to be relevant from a job? Excuse me, perspective, you know, with AI and, and which jobs are going to be redundant or not used anymore. I mean, that's sort of like what people generally talk about. But it's how you prepare for those. I mean, people that have prepared for those jobs. And it's you read these stories in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal now, lifelong photographers, lifelong graphic designers, copywriters are just like, it's not that I'm just doing this now. It's that this is what I studied for and what I learned for. And so this is my craft. The craft has not necessarily become out of my hands. It's not useful, but it's been devalued tremendously. And so I think about AI and in that respect with how people are educated to reach a career. But then also it affects how people are educated in general. I mean, I use AI all the time. It's amazing. And I use it for efficiency, because we we already know how to learn and what to look for and things like that. But if you have AI taking over so early, my point is that we are kind of in a broader period of disruption when it comes to learning and getting information. I can't imagine having AI when I was 15 or 14, what I would have done with that. Nothing good. And I don't know if you what do you have to say about that? But I'm curious. I'm curious. I'm curious. I can see that this person doesn't have any of the foundational knowledge that they needed to really get this more complex problem. So I'm going to deliver that to them first in the way that they learn, which is quite, I don't know, let's say they're, they're very, they're really, like, good at doing quizzes. And so I'm going to do it in a kind of a trivia based approach with quizzes and gamify it in a little bit of a way so they can get the incentive and the quick kind of dopamine hit from seeing what's going on. Scoring really well so they can continue to learn. Like there is ways to do incredible things with it. When it comes to careers, that's obviously a different story. But that's where designing programs now for people in university, well, high school, university and college that train them on competencies rather than actual technical skills is really important. So you need both. You definitely need both. But it's the same idea is like, you know, if you have the talent, that's great. But you also need the drive to do it. The motivation, whatever. It's the same idea, right? So you need to have some of those skills, but you're also going to need to know how to pivot, when to pivot, what that looks like, how to handle that, again, from a mental kind of perspective, like a mental health perspective, how to understand that this is not the end of the world, because that can be really paralyzing. So understanding that pivoting and being agile is part of your career is really important. There are applications for the types of skills in the creative industry. There are applications for the types of skills in the creative industry that are still needed by humans. It might not be, it will look different. There will always be entry level jobs are just not going to look like the entry level job did in, you know, the year 2018. They'll look different, but it's still going to be a job that you're going to have to learn how to do. And if we can get our learning institutions up to date, and try to make sure that they're looking at competencies and skills, and that's really good. But I will think that it's going to be a job that you're going to have to learn how to do. I will say there are some really interesting studies out there on how young people view AI and its role in their lives. And not everybody is happy to outsource school work to AI. They're not, they're not trying to do that. They understand that they need to learn. So a really important skill to have is learning how to learn. And we need to be able to teach that. And people are not necessarily always teachable if you don't show them the value of what they're learning and where it's applicable in real life. So there are some real core conversations about that. competencies that can be scaffolded from a very young age. And we do need to to make sure that we're doing that and thinking about the competencies and not just the technical skills. Yeah, that's so fascinating. Do you feel like, I mean, from a mental health standpoint, I mean, and you talked about some of the things that need to happen. Is that an industry that is going to grow substantially? Because people think of mental health and they think of psychiatrists and they think of going to a doctor. Doctors and lawyers are two things that AI is kind of definitely not replacing, but is supplementing when it comes to what we understand. I mean, when we have mental health challenges, our remedies are different than they were in 2015 or 2018, whatever you said. Do you feel like that's an industry that can boom now? How do you create the demand for that kind of industry? Awareness? What are we talking about? I mean, I think that I've seen some really great kind of tools that are out there that are designed to help young people through anxious periods. And what they do is they create communities. And I think that that's what it's all about, really. So yeah, maybe the mental health kind of provider isn't necessarily doing it in a traditional way that they would have done in the past because people are going on to chat GPT and asking about like what they can do and how they can cope. And obviously that has a lot of, there are a lot of downsides to that because that's not an actual trained professional and people have ended up actually committing suicide taking advice from chat GPT in particular. So it's it's a dangerous space. However, people who are actually working in this space and creating tools for young people who are anxious or might be in need of mental health support are creating communities where people feel seen and heard, where they can share their stories, their concerns with other real people and feel like they're not alone in that journey. And that sense of belonging to a community or a group that understands you is actually incredibly important. And so I think that one of the things that I've seen really, really incredible things happen when you bring people together that AI can't not, it just can't do. And bringing people together, that human connection, making sure that they're outside, like connecting with nature as well, like being in the real world. Breathing the fresh air, touching real things, that is really important. And I think that we underestimate how important it is, but it's about community. I really do think. And so, yeah, okay, like AI might be a tool that, you know, you can reduce the amount of admin that lawyers have. But I think that you and I both have used a lot of AI and probably most of the people that are listening to this to do things for them. Claude is great at shortcuts, right? Like it can really help and it can produce what you need. And it'll actually answer a lot of the legal questions that you have. But sometimes when it's something really complicated, yeah, Claude might be able to give you the answer, but you want to talk to a lawyer as well who can give you personalized answers. And maybe that lawyer is helping develop AI that's going to help do that for other people. But a human in the loop is a word that we use a lot when we're talking about AI. And having that human in the loop is really important because there are still our hallucinations that come out of the AI. They're not always accurate. It's getting better and better by the day, of course. It's accelerating in speed that we can't, you know, keep up with or anticipate. And some of it is obviously too dangerous to even release to the public. Like we've heard this recently. But I think that the point is there is a really, really important, important point around having humans be present in this and finding communities around which you can then share and swap ideas. Yeah, I mean, this past six, seven, eight months for me living in what was it? Let me actually, so seven, seven months living in Riyadh, you know, my career has changed totally. And that career change has put me in regular contact with the same people over and over and over again, all of whom I like and have personally curated to be part of this what I'm doing. But, you know, I lost so much social time in Riyadh. I mean, so many people are like, wow, you live here. And I just like never see you. And I live next door to you. And we still don't hang out. And I really felt the toll on me personally, when it when it came to that. And when I got back here, and I've been here for five days, this is not like a long, long tail study here. But just having time to be I was outside a lot in Riyadh, but having time to be outside here to be around friends to go to dinners that weren't work dinners to be around family and to have no screens. And no distractions. I mean, I cannot tell you how energizing and rejuvenating it is and how much better I feel and how much better I'm sleeping, etc, etc, etc. I mean, it's it's humans are meant to be social animals. And I think that there is a lot of energy and power in that. I think that if that is something that AI is a threat to and something that has an easy medicine, which is to be around people to learn from others to get value and feedback from a community. Everything you just said was really fascinating. I think, I mean, we want to talk about what we're doing and give updates. I think actually, what we should do in any update, what I was gonna say is like, wow, you know, actually, that was a really interesting kind of conversation. And I think I mean, I'm happy to give a brief update on what we're doing. But I actually feel like we got an episode now. And I kind of want to just wrap this thing up because I was fascinating. But just maybe give us a quick update, please. Quick. Yeah, really quickly. I mean, part of the reason why I don't is because it's all I talk about. All day, like for really long days, and it's about by far the hardest I've ever worked. And it's basically the same thing. And the same conversation over and over and over again, which I love. But that's what I love about this podcast is we get to explore new topics and ideas that are not related to what I'm doing. But yeah, I mean, so I'm working in the defense sector in three separate capacities, three companies. One is a technology company, which also serves as an advisory for technologies that are in the defense sector. And the other is a technology company, which also interested in entering the Saudi market. The other is a defense manufacturing business in Riyadh that is capable and aligned with US and NATO technologies. And the third is a defense venture fund, which launched right before the World Defense Show and our episode with Andrew Piercy. And one of the reasons why I don't really want to get into it as well is because there are, frankly, so many NDAs between those three organizations that I'm just like, well, man, like, what can I say? What can I say? In all of our partnership agreements, I have specific carve-outs for the 2030 and for media appearances because I'm a big old ball of hot air. But I don't want to run afoul of any of those NDAs right now. But it's just a very interesting time. Many people have asked, hey, like, obviously you got into this in the right time. I started all this way before the conflict that broke out in the region. So it's not like really convenient timing. Yeah, very convenient timing. And I really like what I'm doing. And I really like the opportunity that exists in Saudi Arabia. And I think we will talk about it more and more over time. But I don't want this show to become, you know, a reflection of my work in that space at all. And in fact, speaking of interaction with humans and therapy, I mean, this is sort of like, I love this. And I love talking about all these other things that really matter to Saudi Arabia and to the world. I mean, this is a Saudi-focused podcast. Obviously. But, you know, we're also humans that are citizens of the world and travel. All of those things, you know, can be a nice space for me to and hopefully you to talk about things that are not directly related to defense or education or upskilling. And yeah, and I'm an open book. I think on in a public airspace like this, I'm just gonna be careful. But that's what I've been up to. And it's been a very interesting time. To say the least. So reach out to me directly if you want to know anything. Of course, with the fun CMA, I can't really say anything anyway, until we, you know, are approved. So but yeah, reach out to me if you want to discuss and I've been not playing golf at all. So I've been up to not that, which makes me sad. And yeah, so that's kind of that's kind of it. From my side. That's not nearly as good as your update. And I want to make I want to make this return episode, about your update. So let's put a pin in it now. And it's nice to see you. So anything else you want to know? No, no, my update, like you just you got me talking on a topic that I you know, blah, blah, blah. But there's, you know, I think what I would really like to do actually is in the show notes, put some of the resources and the really interesting research that I didn't refer to in this discussion for people to read. If they are interested. This feels like old times. This feels like the episode a few years ago, where I wanted to learn about what you're doing things. You're doing totally different things now. But I kind of liked interviewing you. I mean, we just do this over and over again. Give your your little platform here. They're all connected. It's an evolution for sure. Yeah. Nice to see you, Dr. Hannah. We will be back next week. I'll have a proper microphone. Sorry, I sound like not great. And yeah, good to see you. And thanks everybody for joining us again. Sorry for the break here. The double the back to back break. Take care. Bye. Bye.