An Expert’s Perspective on Pots and Pans | Demystified

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See Fandool.com for eligibility, gambling problem called 1-800-Gemmler. When you've got a job to do, Lowe's knows how to help you keep it moving. Milo's pro-rewards members save more with member-value discounts on eligible orders through a quote of $2,000 or more, plus save time with job-side delivery and select purchases. Not a member? Join for free today. Exclusions, more terms, and restrictions apply, can't be combined with any other discount, including but not limited to contract and/or special price. Loyalty program, subject to terms and conditions, details at Lowe's.com/turns, subject to change. [music] Well, we do the Dead Chang show part of the Ring of Podcast that we're presented by Major Del Media. Thank you, O'Lock Tingo, as always. Go check them out on tour. Go check out all the bands on tour right now. We have Stanley Cheng, as an interview today, Christine and I spoke to an individual that has been there, I say, one of the most instrumental figures in cooking, and you may not be familiar with them, but you probably have used one of his products, or you may not know how much he's influenced products that you use, because he's been widely copied and imitated. Chris, he's sort of like the godfather of pots and pans. Yeah. I mean, he gets into some wonky stuff. I mean, he's like so passionate about like the technical side of cookware. I think like you said, Dave, he's the biggest guy behind the stuff that we use, like circular on anilon, kitchen-aid stuff, anything that you buy, Rachel Ray's cookware, he has had a hand in. Do you think that he's like, does every cookware company have a Stanley Cheng type of guy at the top who's just like, he's so special, I think, because he comes from the manufacturing side first, right? He's the guy who knows what's happening with the product first. That seems rare, right? Yeah. I mean, he's an engineer by trade, and you know, in some ways, I think he's been the manufacturer behind the manufacturers as well. I think in this interview, he has not really shown how hija he is. You know what I mean? Right. Right. If there's like a positive version of hija, it would be Sam. Right. Right. Is that better? I think as crazy as it sounds as maybe the best example I can give in a bizarre world, if hija was just limited to kitchen and pots and pans, it would be Stanley Cheng at the very top instead of the guy with the red barren dude, it'd be a very altruistic, good-natured Stanley. Yeah. So we don't do justice at all to Stanley. No, it's like it's totally one of those things where you have like a basement and you've got like a cork board with strings tied between all these different pans, and at the very center of them all is Stanley Cheng. He's just like, yeah. I mean, there's a good chance that something in your kitchen, both professionally and at home, has been inspired, copied, someone copied Stanley, or it is influenced or made, or some version that is like no more than two degrees of separation. So yeah, I think our hija, if hija was bizarre world positive, not negative, limited to the scope of the kitchen supply universe, pots and pans, and it would be an appropriate. Before we get into the Stanley conversation, I actually have a relevant moif question that came in through discord at ape with a knife asks, "I've heard you say everyone needs a non-stick walk, but then I've heard people say walks aren't really worth it unless you crank the heat on them, is the non-stick walk more about the shape and utility versus getting real walk hay?" Nobody in a home kitchen should ever bring up the word walk hay unless you have like a 10,000 BTU guest of, let's just not say that, that's like saying, "I need a pit crew for my car." I need to change my tire, it's an under one second, you know, like very few people should use that in a home kitchen, although I have seen some home kitchen setups that do create walk hay, but I think for the most part, no, I don't think that is the case. Because that is the nature of it all, and we should, we're going to have Kenji to talk about his book soon enough, who's upcoming book about cooking in a walk at home, mind you, is amazing. But like again, I don't use a walk because I don't, number one, I'm not good at it, number two, I don't have the BTUs, BTUs meaning the energy, and three, because you can't create walk hay and use a walk in the proper way, I'm not worried about cranking up the walk in a highway, I mean like in an intense way, like I don't use a traditional walk, I mainly use for almost all things at home cooking, a non-stick walk or walk skillet or walk hybrid. So, should we explain really quick, I'm just wondering if we should explain ape with a knife's question for our listeners. Well, I know, but if you don't understand what walk hay is, first of all, if you don't speak Cantonese, or haven't worked in a Chinese restaurant, maybe you're not familiar with this terminology, but this is. So, let me tell you what it is, walk hay is like an experiential restaurant technique when you take a walk and you take like a chicken that's roasted and you burn the walk, you burn the hay in the walk, you put the chicken in and you bring the table size, and you tell a narrative about how special this chicken was, and how the hay, smoke, so it's important because of the narrative of the chef's growing up in a farmhouse in this house as well. It's a traditional Chinese cooking technique developed by the Scandinavian chef Nicholas Exdett, yes, this is a walk hay which is awesome. So, walk hay is like the flavor of a roaring hot iron walk, you know, I think Kenji talks about it being some matter of like the particles of oil vaporizing in the air around the food, you know, it's something to do with like the hot steel hitting the food, it's just like, and what Dave is saying is to get this flavor out of a steel walk, you need 10,000 BTUs, you need a fucking jet edge and underneath your walk to produce this taste. You need Targaryen dragon fire, you need dragon fire, you need dragon fire to create this. And this, this, the question from Abe with a knife. That's gonna taste like when you have like a proper fried rice, right? Where you taste that like, oh, that's a little smoke, that's a little like, taste a little burnt but it's not burnt. It's just, right, it's not burnt. It's not burnt. It's, it tastes like, it tastes like heat. It tastes like just like distilled flavor or something really hot. And the question Abe with a knife is asking is, why, you know, if that's the, if that's like the important thing about a walk, why am I using a non-stick walk, which can't, you know, sustain or shouldn't be used at ultra high temperatures. So, like, that's the essential question. And Dave is about to explain. So I'm basically saying right off the bat, don't click anything at home using super high because your height is probably low heat. Your, your stoves, your stoves on high is the pilot light for a Chinese restaurant. You know what I'm trying to say is like, you think it's like fast at a local high school in, in the middle of nowhere America is probably very slow compared to a little bit stranger, right? So like, that's basically it. You know, it's like, not, you don't supposed to. And if you're not going to cook over super, super high heat, there's really no point. You know, and I've seen setups where people will cook over like a green egg or they do have some like insane setup at home where they can cook over a high heat. That's great. I'm not saying, no, for the, I'm just saying for the majority of people, cooking over high heat is actually pretty low or, or pretty, not even really that high for most home kitchen setups. So I'm not too worried about that for me. That's why it's off the table. Number two, maintaining a walk is actually pretty easy to use it all the time. If that's your main thing, which again, cooking over a, not a, a block steel pan. If you're using that a lot, like if you're in a fish station and a French restaurant or a restaurant or a restaurant or a restaurant or a restaurant. restaurant that's a that uses a lot of black steel. That's an amazing way because it's a little bit lighter, but you're using it all the time. It's actually more efficient way of cooking if you have like 24 of these pans. Home kitchen I think is a little bit different. You just need something that can cook a lot quickly, but it's not over ripping high heat. And again, what Stanley will get into the conversation. One of the biggest faux pas for people cooking in anything that's non-stick is they cook the heat the pan empty, make it without any food in it. That just is not what you should do. The whole idea of cooking in a non-stick wok for me isn't to get wok hay. It's to cook something as quickly as possible, as cleanly as possible, with as little cleanup as possible. That's it. I'm not trying to cook anything in like a wok wok, right? Yeah, I can stir fry some things, but it's I mean, it's taking the other principles that are important to a wok. And Stanley gets into it. Those high sides are pretty unique to a pan. The flat bottom and high sides are pretty unique. You can push food around the pan so that not everything is getting the direct heat at the bottom where it's touching the heat source. And then I mean, I think when I see you cooking pasta in the wok, that to me is sort of the best explanation of the whole thing. It is a super deep pan that you can still use like a fry pan. Like it has the capacity. It's a super deep pan that I use to cook food for four to six people, you know what I mean? Like it's just so versatile that you know, it's positionless. You know, one thing we never we're always like sort of celebrating the the wok, the wok cooks and Chinese restaurants. And one thing we never really talk about that I love is like on a on a restaurant wok, like the gas is like turned on and off by like a big handle. That's like at waste level or a pedal or a pedal or a pedal. And they're doing it with their knees, but they're doing it with their knee. That's like that's the beauty of the whole thing is like they're just bumping this thing with their hips, their knees, their legs like there. Like that's how they're controlling the heat underneath their wok. It's just like you know, like when you see like a like a fighter engine or like top gun when you see the afterburn of a plane, that's what is shooting out. But I just love like it's like the wok is in one hand. They're they're spatula. They're like the kind of scooping spatulas and the other and they're just using their lower body lower body to control the heat. It's awesome. It's it's a lot of like it's like if you're galloping without you know, like a like Monty Python when they're going around horses. That's what it sort of looks like. Yeah, they're totally. It's doing the next viral TikTok dance right now. The wok. Okay. It's not the giddy. It's not the gruddy. It's called the shitty. So so that that's that's it. So I know we just got off topic here, not a surprise here on this podcast, but I just have too much respect. Again, I'm not saying you can't cook with wok because I would say more people in this will probably cook with a proper wok than not. I probably thought of that. I do know from talking to Stanley that not sick walks are extremely popular, particularly in Asia. I just for me, I don't think I'll ever you know, there are actually there are times I want to use off when I want to steam a large piece of fish or something like that. But like it's I put it in the frequency of using a cast iron skillet that just collects dust. Using a proper like every time I look at the cast iron skillet, you know what? I'm like yeah, I'd rather have it maybe 10% less delicious when I'm cooking something because I don't want to clean that fucking thing. Right, right. I like it. I'm like I have not maintained you well enough. I can't bring you up. That's like I feel about the wok and the cast iron fan. I just cast iron skillet. I'm wondering, should we all just get rid of it? It's an interesting question. I've thought about this a lot because it just sits there and it's so heavy and I don't touch it. I just don't touch it. The fact that I have to clean it makes me want to never cook in it, which is true. Like I would love to cook a piece of steak in it all the time. Oh my god, the cleanup. But the cleanup, it's not worth it. The return on investment on a cast iron skillet is not worth it unless I'm on like a city slicker's outdoor adventure on a cake bar. Oh man. We should do a city just cooking out of the chuck wagon. It's exactly like the cast iron fan because there are people who cook exclusively in the cast iron, right? Like that's the only way to do it. I'm not friends with. I like to eat their food, but I don't know them. I don't know. Yeah. So no, I think that in the Democratic Republic of Chiang, we will melt down all cast iron pans and turn it into something else. What? I don't know, but we'll just melt. We're going to melt them all down. Maybe I should just get rid of my. What am I doing with it? It's just they're making compromising the structural integrity of my shelves. Maybe get rid of mine. And that layer of crap that's building up. Oh my god. There's like this thing. It's like I put like a little paper towel or newspaper on top of it just so I don't have to see all the crap that's underneath there. It's bad. It's bad. So no. I that was a good question. I was so the question though by by the that was sent in. What is he advocating for? Or she or he? Him or her? Ape. I think they're really asking like are you just getting the nonstick walk purely for the shape versus the actual function of you know, a walk. Hey, does that make sense? So it's the advantage of the pan. Yeah. And Stanley gets into this a little bit, but basically it's like what's the advantage of a nonstick walk if you can't get walk in it. And I think you said it's like it's just it's a big pan that you can cook. A fucking lot of food in it. A lot. Okay. A lot of different foods in it. And it's really easy to clean up. Yeah. And when you have to cook meal after meal at home, that's all I give a shoot about. Yeah. Do you do the mental, do you do the mental calculus, Dave, of like because you were saying, you know, with a record, I was only going to curse three times. I think I've already broken it's trying to curse less. So you're talking about how like a real like an iron, you know, a steel walk in a Chinese restaurant, you have running water all the time. Like they're basically like churning things out of the walk, brinsing them really quick with a steel wool tossing it out and then cooking the next thing. Do you have like a similar process, though, with your with your home cooking, or you're like nonstick walk, where you're like thinking about the order, you're going to make say three or four dishes where you can like, oh, I can put I can make this this quick as a stir fry. It'll be pretty clean. Then I'll just do the next thing. So I'll just do a quick rinse of it after it's cooled down a little bit because I even professionally, I try not to put cold water or any kind of water on a hot pan because it will warp it over time. So I let it to come down just a little bit so it doesn't sizzle. But hot enough where I can rinse it at and wipe it out with a towel. And then I move that's just what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Basically anything that I have to cook where I can't do that, I don't cook. It doesn't fit into the rinse and wipe system. And it's not on the menu. Correct. That's amazing. Well, I like I said Stanley, Stanley gets into summer like the highlights of the shape. So ape with a knife will get even more of an answer from Stanley in a second here. Alright, here's here's the goat. Sammy Chang. Milo's pro rewards members save more with member volume discounts on eligible orders through a quote of $2,000 or more. Plus save time with job site delivery and select purchases. Not a member joined for free today. Exclusions, more terms and restrictions apply. Can't be combined with any other discount, including but not limited to contract and/or special price loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions details at Lowes.com/Turors subject to change. This episode is brought to you by Paul Molliv. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners sitting around the table. Everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Paul Molliv ultra. Paul Molliv's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of Greece, leaving your dishes sparkling clean and the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at PaulMolliv.com. At ZocDoc, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. Sorry, that doctor's not a network. Press one for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours. The next availability is in three months. But ZocDoc makes finding the right doctor easy. Download the app and search by specialty insurance and availability. Read real patient reviews. Then book instantly. ZocDoc. Ready to be seen? All right, so we have Stanley Cheng. We wanted to have him on this podcast because on our discord and just in general, there are a tremendous amount of questions we've received. Well, what pots to buy? Is Teflon still okay, even though we've talked about it? Ad nauseam. What's the best pot for X? What's the best pan for Y? And I'm not the expert, but we're talking to arguably Chris. What did you say? You know, the mountain rush more of pots and pans? I think that I was going to say we have all these questions about what pots and pans to buy about the pots and pans in our cabinets. And we brought in the guy. probably made most of them. Yeah, I mean, well, as you know, I am the old guy here. I've been in the industry, would you believe for 51 years? So you've been doing this since you were one year old, Stanley. Exactly. Well, thank you. Thank you. So yeah, I've got certainly observed all the changes in the industry. And I think I have answers to most questions. So this is exciting for me to have a chance to really share my experiences. And with the public, there are a lot of misconceptions in the marketplace. And hopefully this is an opportunity to help that I can help to clear some of these misconceptions. I mean, basically, Chris, I don't think Mount Rushmore is appropriate or fitting. I think goat status for the pots and pans industry, the greatest of all time is more appropriate. Because Stanley, I don't even know all of the innovations you've created for pots and pans that have now been sort of copied globally. What are some of the things if you're too embarrassed to humble to talk about it? But like, you've done, what are, like, you've done so much. Like, what, what, how do you explain this to people? Well, okay, I can name a few. If you, if now would be a good time, you know, it's over 50 years. I have done a lot of missing back to the, from the very beginning, going back to the early 70s. At the time, yeah, one of the things that I did, the first things I did was to, was to create a, a tell the world about the Chinese walk and make it user friendly for the world, the flat bottom walk. I invented the flat bottom Chinese walk. At the time, the Chinese walks were made of these cheap carbon steel, the rust, and they sit on the ring, a ring for the American home, the American cooktop and ranges. It's flat top. So you say, sit on this ring, it slides around, it's very dangerous, and the very poor heat transfer. So I, there was one of the, one of the earliest inventions that I did was say, hey, why not, why not tell the world about the Chinese walk, a quarter of the world's population that you said Chinese walk, they couldn't possibly be wrong to explain what it actually do. So I created the non-Sick Chinese walk and, and then it actually got some wonderful design awards I wouldn't go into. That was the first, and that was back in 1972. I mean, Stanley, that's like the equivalent of inventing the seatbelt. I mean, Stanley, I know you invested in the seven, you introduced it in the 70s, but can you, I mean, I feel like there's a, there's a large audience that still needs some introduction to the, like, the, the magic of the walk. I mean, Kenji Lopez is about to put out a big walk cookbook. Can you, can you just summarize a little bit of like, what, what is that introduction? What, what, what makes the walk from, like, your, your engineering mind, your innovation mind, like, what makes the walk special and, and what's interesting about a walk shape? It's all really from the consumer's perspective, really, that the walk is, it's perhaps the most versatile piece of cookware in the kitchen worldwide. And it's used really widely in all over Asia. It's not only just in China or Hong Kong or Taiwan. It's in, and really other places in Asia. What's so good about it is really, it's like all pants and one. You can use it as a fry pan. You can use it to stir fry. You can use it to pan sear. You can use it to, to make soup, if you like. You can make it, you use it to steam. It's so versatile almost anything that you, that you want, you might want to do in the kitchen. You can do it with a walk. And, and then the oil, the, the way the pan is shaped liquids and oil will flow to the center of the, of the, of the pan, which is actually where you need it as well, particularly oil, oil, oil, water. And, and this is, it's just so versatile. And the heat is concentrated in the bottom of the pan, which is great. And then in the way that they're sloped, that very tall sloping sidewall, what that's wonderful too, because you may not want everything to be so hot at the bottom of the pan. So you can push it up the sidewall, which is a feature that no other, no other pan has in the world that it, well, some of the people tried to out, tried to emulate that and create a platform on the fry pan. They're a second level. But the Chinese walk is really very convenient. But there are many things that why the Chinese walk does so well, which is why it continues to be the most popular, really, piece of cookware around more certainly in Asia, in the Asian community. And, and it's not limited to the Chinese community. And, and you were saying, you know, you, you introduced the nonstick walk. Tell me, tell me what percentage correct this statement is. Stanley Chang invented the nonstick pan. What percentage? What percentage not invented nonstick pan? Nonstick pan was invented actually. Dupont's Teflon was in, was introduced to the world in 1964. We made the decision in 1969 as a company. I was still in college at the time in engineering. And to go into that, to go into the nonstick cookware pieces, but I did not invent nonstick. I only, I only created the nonstick walk. And then the flat bottom walk that I did. And, but that's exciting. That's actually that the nonstick technology has evolved so much. There's so many misunderstandings about that that we can certainly talk about. But this is to go through some of the unique things that I did that I, that's, that's meaningful to the American consumers or around consumers around the world. I, I introduce the tempered glasslets around the world. They, which is very, very popular. The glasslet is tempered glasslet with a stainless steel ring. And that's something that I introduce to the world. And then we call the product cook and look. And we still use that brand that name in Asia. But we, we, we still, Stan, Stan, let me hold on. Anybody that has a glasslet to their pot, you, you, you, you invented that too. I introduce it. It was invented by a small Japanese company. But then I brought it to the world. Yeah. So it was in Japan. It was in a, done in a small way. Yeah. I did not invent it. But I, I certainly popularized rice around the world. And so anything that has a glasslet is something that is, it's a knockoff of them, of the Meyer glasslet, the cook and look. Stan Lee, we've talked about it on the podcast before, but to hear from a manufacturer, an engineering perspective for anybody that is still gun shy or afraid to embrace nonstick. Can you, can you give people like a brief history in your, sure, stands on all of it? Clearly your pro. Right. So what makes a nonstick cookware nonstick is a material known as P T F E. It's a chemical name, acronym that stands for poly tetra fluoroethylene. Okay. It's a mouthful. I'll say it again. Poly tetra fluoroethylene. So P T F E for short, that is the most slippery with the lowest coefficient of friction material in the whole wide world. It was, it was accidentally invented by, discovered by DuPont in 1937 was introduced to the world in 1964. And to this day, it's still the most slippery material in the world today. And so that, that's, that's wonderful. But it's very soft. It's not durable. That's why in a different heart, different nonstick technology, not to improve the nonstick, but just to make it tougher. So yeah, then you have a, as of the past few years, you have 10 years now, you have a, a, a, a coding known as ceramic nonstick, which is actually quite clever play on word on the word ceramic, because people, everybody has ceramic cups, ceramic plates at home. So people think, no, wow, that is very safe. People are concerned about the safety of nonstick. That's the fact that it may scratch worse still. DuPont, they came up, they owned the name Teflon, and they were the biggest manufacturer of nonstick coding in the world. And they, in the process of making nonstick coding, they, they use a, a material known as PFOA to, to make, to keep the PDFE, residents in suspension and the liquid form in the manufacturing process. Let me just say it emphatically. PDFE is a hundred percent safe, totally safe. Even in the ingested as hand to a safe, what wasn't safe is PFOA, but that was only a material used in the manufacturing process to produce PDFE at the time. And we're going back 20 years ago. But DuPont actually, since they, was, so they found out the PFOA was causes cancer. And they had a, a big class action lawsuit that DuPont, I think lost them, a lot of money, billions of dollars on this. So they, they stopped using PFOA 20 years ago. For 20 years, there's, all nonstick pens don't have PFOA anymore. They're actually, it wasn't just DuPont that used PFOA. All the manufacturers on nonstick coding used PFOA, they, because they bought from DuPont. The whole industry changed. So nobody uses PFOA anymore. So the nonstick pens today, let me distill up this, well, this, this myth that nonstick coding nonstick pens are not safe. Nonstick, if it, nonstick pens are safe, certainly our nonstick pens are hundred percent safe. No PFOA in it at all. There hasn't been any PFOA in it for 20 years. It is totally safe. What we have, the advancement in technology is to make it tougher. But in terms of non-sick performance, so it's still the best. It's 10 times more durable than ceramic coatings. The mini brands for that, it's a nice product, but it's just not durable. In terms of non-sick release performance. Stanley, Stanley, you're being too diplomatic. (laughing) No, it's a nice product. You don't really mean it's a nice product. Come on. Well, I have to be kind, right? What, no, let's, what makes it? (laughing) What makes it such a nice product, Stanley? What makes it, no. I mean, basically for Stanley's language usage, for those that's listening, replace the nice with another four-letter word. I think that's what Stanley would like to say. (laughing) It's a nice product like Sligener. I wouldn't like you, Dave, with these four-letter word. (laughing) No, it's a nice product like a girl calls you, and he's a nice guy. That's a kind of nice for talking about here. So, I mean, Stanley, like Dave said, plenty of people in our audience on our Discord have been asking this question. In that sort of $80 to $100, $15 price point, for your bang for your buck, what kind of non-stick, what kind of non-stick fries pan are you pointing people toward? Well, the best non-stick fried pans today is still, what they are, the two of them though, they are equally good. One for aluminum, it is, without a doubt, the best is, it's a hard-enerdized non-stick fried pan. To this day, if it's aluminum, hard-enerdized is the best. If it's stainless steel, there's another coating, another process that is really used by a few, very, very few manufacturers in the world, and we use it called plasma. Plasma substrate to toughen the stainless steel surface to create a high-low system with a plasma technology, and which is, in fact, similar to a hard-enerdized, we have this micro-high-low system, which applies to the non-stick to improve the adhesion of the non-stick coating and makes it super tough. I'll stop at that, I can't continue, but I love it. - I love it, I love it. I don't know, it's like, I'm just, it's musical. You're musical, but here you talk about this stuff. - I can, of course, talk a lot more, but then this is not the time. (laughing) - Maybe it's the time, I don't know. Even like the year more, yeah. - I mean, can you give us a sense of, from the time, 51 years you've been in the business, do you feel like, I mean, I know a day would say to this, but do you feel like the consumer now is much more, I mean, you're talking about, now I'm not getting into the technical stuff because you don't want to bore people, but is today's consumer much more savvy and knowledgeable about what they're buying than they were when you started in the business? - Surprisingly. - No, I think, surprisingly, I think the internet, I think these savvy marketers, they are, you know, with the odysys, ceramic coating coated cookware, they are worse coatings than ceramic coating cookware. There's a silicone coating that people use on bakeware, for example, when people use it on cookware, they are, they are, they are some super popular brands that I wouldn't mention on the show here, that are, they are good to start with, but in no time at all, in the matter of weeks, not even months, the coating would scratch and we start to peel, and the non-sick quality, even if it doesn't scratch a peel, the non-sick coating would simply stop releasing food. And that applies to all these silicone coatings out there, it's like bakeware, those of you that have experience, have experience with bakeware, you say, "Wow, you know, it feels good initially, super slippery, but it's not, you said 30 times, the non-sick quality starts to deteriorate really badly. It's not non-sick anymore, so you spray Pam on, as if you do it to your mid-toot, or put butter on it, but then that is silicone, silicone coating, ceramic coating, coated cookware, it's not, it is better, but still, it really after realistically, if you use it on a daily basis, in a few months or a year, the release property will deteriorate substantially. The coating is still there, but it's the release, the non-sick property wouldn't be as good. - When you're talking about silicone coatings, the silicone coating, it says the same thing as like, the silicone pads, like silicone mats and things, like those will lose their nuts. - No, it's a little bit different, it's a silicone oil, it's not silicone, it's not solid silicone, I see, I see, I see. - Yeah, they're not silicone pads, but it's silicone oil, which is a wonderful, very slippery material. The problem with silicone coatings, like what's on bakeware, people understand bakeware, right? It's that every time when you use a piece of bakeware, why is this non-sick? Because a little bit of that silicone oil comes off, it's a self-sacrificing coating. The silicone oil comes off with your food. It's not dangerous, but you are ingesting it. And then that's why it is non-sick, it's self-sacrificing. So how many times can you sacrifice yourself the coating? It's like 20, 30 times and then it starts to be really bad. - Stanley, can you sort of reveal like this, this game from these companies that do the silicone spray because it lasts what, a handful of times? The first time you use it is like the greatest non-sick pan of your life. And then a lot of these manufacturers have refund warranty, blah, blah, blah, I get your money back. In this industry, is it something like, do they calculate the price knowing that after, they know after like six months when someone uses it, they're never gonna return it. - Well, I think what is evident is that there are a few very successful brands, I would not mention the names in the marketplace in the past 10 years. It's very successful with silicone coated cookware. And initially, you can tell by the really slick, very smooth, oily service of it, it's like bakeware, they'll be the best equivalent. It feels great to start with, as there must be room, but then because of the self-sacrificing nature of the coating, it just doesn't last. Whether it's manufacturers, it's up to them. The honorable ones might be willing to really refund or really replace the pens, but I understand they are multiple class action lawsuits against some of these companies. And then they are fighting it out in court. And because they are not willing to, not really, it's a liability to these companies that if they have to recall everything, gosh, no, you're placing me, this is cause of fortune. Stanley, can you give us a number of how many honorable companies there are? (laughing) Well, they are, they are, they are, they are, many of them, are you actually saying, don't work many, I don't want, they're multiple, you know, this is really, but they are also a lot of, two, two-tip thematic, you know? Yeah, well, come on, you know, come on. There are class action lawsuits out there, still pending, and these companies, a lot of these companies are fighting it, because their products actually don't last, and they mislead the consumers, they make great claims, they say, okay, how, how wonderful it is? Oh, it's a, I have to stop by myself from saying a word I was about to say. It would give away the name of the brand. (laughing) They are very good marketers, they tell great stories online, they do these really half-hour infomercials, talked about it, it's wonderful, and, but a lot of us actually have been burned by buying products, that are wonderful, but it sounds so good within infomercial, and in reality, the products don't live up to the claims made on the infomercials. I'll just leave it at that. I mean, Dave, in your house, are you, you're basically exclusively, I think, non-stick, ceramic donabe, and any day, right? Do you use stainless at this point at home cooking? I don't, I mean, I have my Heston pans are there. If I was cooking, I mean, this is what I debate, because I have, I think Heston is best in class, and I think at the beginning of the pandemic, I was using it a lot more for sauces and stuff. I don't remember the shape, Stanley, what's the shape of the one that I love the most? - Oh, the chef's pen, which is like the Chinese walk. - Yeah, yeah, I think that is the best constructed pen in the world, it's amazing. We call it the chef's pen, because the shape of it has a big, slow, pea-sized wall like the walk, and then if we call it the Chinese walk, people say, "Oh, I don't use the walk." So, but the shape is basically the same as the Chinese walk. It does have a single, a long handle, which a lot of people like, instead of two side handles. But that is, this is the chef's pen. It's one of the most popular shapes. - It's so good. I love the handle feel is great. It's just a great pan. Again, if I was in a professional kitchen, if I was working, say like an entrepreneur at the A station, and I was building out a new kitchen, I would probably have, like, I would probably ask Stanley, I need like 15 of those in different sizes. So when I'm cooking cereal, like real cooking, Chris. The Heston stuff comes out, you know. But for day-to-day home use, it's all non-stick. Non-stick walk is my bread and butter. I use it for literally every day. I was going to say when Stanley was naming his various uses of the walk, he didn't list making spaghetti. Yes, in there, which is a chain favorite. I'll make everything in. You know, in that in the chef's pan, he said, "Wonderful, even doing pasta. But like several times, you know, as we talk about non-stick pans and the hard-anodized and now the nanobond, you know, you talk about the hardness of the surfaces or how hard these things are. Is it an aesthetic benefit? Is it like you said, it just doesn't scratch? Like, what does hardness bring to the pan? I know that's something. I'm so glad you asked. That gives me a chance to explain non-nobond. I'm an all-you man over here. So, the non-nobond, what the consumer will see, the first thing you will notice, the non-nobond is ultra smooth. On the inside, it has this really beautiful mirror polish service on the outside of the pan as well, mirror polish inside and outside. You might say that, "Hey, why is stainless steel? Why don't people mirror polishing the steel on the inside?" They do. However, if those that have a stainless steel mirror polish interior, we have done it before. We're still doing some. But the first time you use it, you're going to scratch it. It wouldn't look good anymore. And that's why people on stainless steel manufacturers do not mirror polish the inside of the stainless steel because it doesn't last. It frustrates the consumer. That's why they all do the satin finish or the sundry finish to hide the scratches so that the consumers don't feel bad about it. But, has the non-nobond is different because it's super hard. You cannot scratch it. Well, if you try hard, as you scratch it with a knife or you tense over time, you see these very minor scratches. But in restaurants, we have tested it, or the restaurants have used it. Some are mentioned, three-sided restaurants. After six months, honestly, they claim the chef de cuisine tell us. They use it a hundred times today. Six months later, that pan looks like new. When you send six feet away from that used pan in the restaurant, the mirror polish, the beautiful shine is still there. Compared to a brand new non-nobond pan, you cannot tell the difference. You send six feet away. If you look up close, yes, you can. Very minor scratches, which do not affect the performance of the product. That's incredible. And then so another great thing is, okay, sing this seal. So what's a big deal? Okay, other than that for the look good. Well, that's only a minor benefit. The other benefit is that it doesn't react to anything. Sing this seal. Some of you might have problems with the thing called salt pitting, because people sprinkle salt onto a friend with a singer's seal, fry pan when they're frying. And there's no liquid there. And the salt eats into the singer's seal, actually pits the singer's seal. Non-nobond doesn't do that. It doesn't do that. It doesn't react to anything. And then the service, the shiny service is not just for good looks, Chris. The service is non-porous. There are no micro-porous on the service, which is why non-nobond is so much easier to clean than normal singing the seal. Or that sun-rich service that you see or that certain finish that you see, there are a lot of micro-porous here. And that's why it is more difficult to clean. Has the non-nobond? It is not a non-sick coating. It will last forever. And the fact that it is shiny like that means that there's no micro-porous. So it makes it much easier to clean than traditional singing the seal. It is not non-sick. I want to stress. But it's just a heck. That's a lot easier to clean. And that's a great innovation. The fact that it looks like new forever, that gives you also pleasure in ownership. People like to hang copper pans on, because it looks beautiful. And has the non-nobond and offers that satisfaction of ownership. It is beautiful. Ying, the non-nobond that I, the best comp I can give to the audience for me, and I don't even know if Stanley would agree. But this is how I like to think about it, is some of the Stanley still pans were like, like a movie made on actual film. And this is made on high-def digital. And it just is like a sharper crisper, everything is better picture. And on film, if you don't refresh it every so like 10 years, it starts to age and fade and look like an old, old film, right? Nobody likes that. And I think the nano-clad is actually what makes it best in class. And I think I put my foot in my mouth a couple years back when I said, you know, a hastin is, you know, one of the best in there. And Stanley corrected me. No, it is the best. That's modesty, right? And I'm just saying, like I agree, since for professional pans, it's pretty great. And Stanley is going to be too modest to tell you all the three-mission star restaurants that use it. But if I was going to deck out and I had high aspirations, I'd be decking it out with, with hastin. So, but, but Stanley, this gets to a question that we talk about in Discord and just in general. For the home cook, the average home cook, is this like buying a race car that they don't know how to drive if they buy, like the, you know, best in class stuff? Right. No, I don't think so. But people with a love scene list seal, they really should give hastin on them on a try. So Stanley, help our listeners out a little bit more because I feel like you're partially at fault for this. There are so many, there are so many options when it comes to cookware. And so many kind of proprietary terms, you know, I mean, nanobond is a proprietary term. But look, if I'm, if I'm the average consumer and I'm trying to buy a set of cookware and there's a lot of options at the same price point or within, you know, a little bit of within a certain range. When it comes like stainless steel cookware, for instance, what should I actually be concerned with? What am I actually looking for? And what is total mumbo jumbo? If money, we have consumers that that contact our hastin concierge and say, hey, money is not my concern. I don't mind paying more. That's not concerned. So just tell me what which one is the best? If that is a situation, nanobond, hastin, nanobond is twice as expensive as the leading brand out here in the marketplace. So if price isn't your concern, or actually if you get a fried pan, that's actually really still. It's only a bit more than $200. It's not, it's not a lot of money. And they'll give you endless satisfaction for decades of use. And so that that's what I would recommend for people that actually still prefer traditional stainless steel. The leading brand out there is actually, it's actually quite good. It's actually, I still say for stainless steel, it is good. But we have something that's actually better, you would expect, that we have a, we have a product called PoBON. Is it made by a factory that I set up in just outside of Milano, 45 minutes outside of Milano, 25 euro factory doing this great technology stuff. PoBON is another great example of something. Plains of stainless steel that is really good. They want non-sick, the PoBON plasma non-sick is the best. And if you want something cheaper, yes, then we do offer that. And the market, they're all kinds of alternatives, too. There's other brands that, for stainless steel, that are, they're okay, but they're just stainless steel. If you know, if you love stainless steel, that's totally fine. But if you want something better, then you have a choice now. What hurts non-sick the most, I think it's worth while mentioning this sort of people understand. The worst thing that would happen to non-sick is not even the use of metal utensils. It's really high heat that you, you should be careful not to have high, put the pan on high. And then, and then you come back three minutes later, that's, that's too long. That pan is going to burn. You should be, you should be paying attention to it. You cannot put the pan on the burn or even on medium heat. And you go answer a phone and 10, five minutes later, what that pan is, it's destroyed. We got high, non-sick cannot withstand high heat, even with hot energy. But then it would be the biggest weakness of it. And otherwise, you take care of it. You can use high heat, but you cannot just high heat without any food on the inside. That's too long. You have to have food in a non-sick pan, all right? Right. Exactly. You cannot just pre-heat the pan and not pay attention. Stanley, for all of your success and great ideas and innovation and popularizing certain things, can you share with us one that you look back on? I'm like, I can't believe I came up with that idea. So, so bad. Well, for me, that would be, I think that would be a hot, energized non-sick. That would be a single-most innovation in non-sick, which is still the general public still prefer non-sick. And that is it. It's just that why it is good is not really understood. And then we have the, in the case of some of our non-sick, we have this high low system. And one of our greatest, I'm so proud of this new innovation that we have. We actually manage to embed seamless steel mesh into the non-sick. And then the non-sick is, you can see it, 95% of the surface is still non-sick coating, but that 5% the seamless steel mesh, Actually, it's a little taller than the non-stick coating. So when you use metal utensils, it slides on top of the stainless steel mesh. That product is called anal and excessive. It's a great innovation. It's our latest innovation that I'm proud of, other than the hot endized non-stick. Which is a big, we're very proud of it. But Stanley, what about our inventions that you're not proud of anymore? There are all kinds of products that we do just for just to compete on price. You too long. No. But Stanley, you've had to come up with something. You're like, wow, I thought that was a good idea. We built it, but maybe it wasn't a good idea. Maybe I shouldn't have thought about that. Have you ever had something like that? Well, that's certainly, I remember that you mentioned it with that. When we introduced Circulon back in the 80s, in like 1989, we introduced, we thought, wow, Circulon is so good. High-low hot endized non-stick on aluminum. So why didn't we do that on stainless steel? We introduced Circulon non-stick stainless steel. And that was a disaster. It wasn't any good because the non-stick technology at the time wasn't good enough to adhere for non-stick coating to stick to stainless steel. So we had all kinds of adhesion problems. We are embarrassed about that. We just continued the product in a few months after we launched it. So that is one of the notable failures in our cookware business that we have done. That wasn't good. I was reading this article. I was reading a profile of you, I think, in the San Francisco Chronicle from a long time ago. And it was telling a story about you were standing there grilling and it occurred to you that you were getting splatters everywhere. And you kind of, in this moment of cooking, you had an epiphany and you rushed back to go kind of sketch out like a different kind of pan that was going to slope and direct the fat and liquid another way. To the product innovations that you have personally sort of originated or the ideas that have struck you, do they come mostly from these practical real world? I'm sitting here, I'm doing this, why is this happening? Or do they come from, we know this is a problem of manufacturing. We need to come up with some new technology. Where does it come from? Actually, our philosophy, our approach to innovation and technology is actually very simple. We do not try to create something that is so incredible that the consumer has never been seen in the world and that there is no need. Whatever we create, we invent, we innovate. We're out there to solve consumer problems. We start with identification of consumer problems first. And how to solve it is the, that is a challenge. And so we invented hard and less nonsense because non-sick was not durable. So we invented hard and less non-sick. And then as a nanobond, it's because we understand that seeing the steel is not really not good as well, that this is difficult to clean and it stains and scratches. So we start with consumer pain points. And then we come up with technologies. Some of these technologies are very hard to do. Hard and less is difficult, but difficult. Much more difficult is has the nanobond. And so we start with that. We're always just, it's very simple. We just try to solve consumer pain points to come up with to help them to sort of enjoy the cooking experience more. And the joy of cooking, we try to deliver with our innovations, which is very simple is that we're just giving out secrets away. So your daughter, Steph, is working with one David Chang here and has released a line of cookware, any day cookware. I know she had some resistance just like jumping straight into the family business, but sort of like carving out her own lane here and building this company up with Dave and trying to do what you're saying, this consumer pain point, which is huge of like, you've got this magic box in your house that you don't use in commercial stuff. - Exactly. - Do you see, what do you see for Steph's journey in this business? Are you seeing sort of like, as a dad, what are you looking at when you're watching her out there on her own now? - I am so proud of Steph in how she really came up with this new microwave cookware product called NEDA. This is a major breakthrough in, in never before, as a cookware, glass cookware. A wide glass, because plastic is just not safe. And all of the, all of the glass products out there, and then, okay, we use a board silky glass, which is the best glass available, and it has great temperature stability and resistance, so which is great, but then glass did. The other, you gotta say, okay, Pyrex was invented how many years ago, I don't even know, you know, 60 years ago, 70 years ago. It's nice, it's a kind of glass, but it is, it's suitable for microwave usage, it is, but then it doesn't do as well as any data. So, and the secret of any day, if you like, is the way that that lid is made, Steph has figured it a way to trap the steam. We all know that microwave cooking is not even, the way that microwave bounces around in the microwave, it's not even. And that's why in almost every microwave, there is a turntable in there to turn for the round to make it more even, but with any data, with that typefitting lid sealed by silicone rubber, high temperature surgical grade silicone, which is totally safe. And then there is a very innovative steam vent, which is a knob as well, that traps the steam inside. So now you are, you're pumping that microwave energy into the glass vessel, and you're cooking food, and that steam generated creates a, trapping the steam inside the cooking vessel. You have a saturated steam environment inside the any day piece of glass cookware, which helps your steaming and your microwaving at the same time. That's the secret of it, that it traps it, but it traps it in a way that is totally safe because of that steam vent. It just lets out enough steam so that it is safe. We otherwise, it cannot, we'd be like a pressure curve. And the way that the pan is shaped as well, it's just the steam circulates around, makes it much more even and speeds up the cooking process as well. So it's a great invention, I'm so proud of her, and Dave is doing a great job. No, we just saw by chance, but Dave and Chris, you guys love microwaves. And then Seth and myself love microwaves too, from coming from a different perspective. Again, we're trying to solve a consumer pain point, which is how to get people, give them microwave cookware that actually works so well. He's signed for using the microwave. And then with Dave and you guys helping it, I think the message is slowly getting out. I say slowly, Dave, can we go in the faster? I know, we're trying, we're trying. Lord knows we're trying. Yeah, it is a wonderful piece of technology, and then you are contributing to it. So thank you, really, I cannot be more proud and more excited about what this would help the average consumer to speed up cooking at home. And you can almost do anything. You can even do grains, you can do rice in it. And desserts and all sorts of things that people never dream about that you can, wow, you can do that in the microwave. And you can go chicken and whatever it is, and pass out. You say, it's amazing, amazing piece of cookware. Stanley, do you have, I mean, speaking of the innovations, do you have a list of your top five innovations or products that you've seen in your life of working in this business? Or in just a cookware that I have seen that is so great? Well, I love the walk. I love using glass plates in general, because you can see through it. I love the hard-enliased non-stick. I love Hesse Nanobahn, and I love any day. Wow, that's five already. (laughing) We have a lot more, but then there are a lot more, all kinds of different shapes of products. Like, for example, I made it a grill pan. That's intended for use on, not only the barbecue, but a gas cooktop as well, a grill pan with vents in the grill pan, with sloping service, so that the drippings would drain away. I don't think I've shown you guys that pan, but it's a nice product. That is a great, a nice grilling product that is, we haven't actually commercialized it in a good way, so this product is something that we still have yet to advertise. What is one thing Stanley? One product or innovation that you wish you had come up with or you had patented? Well, I actually patented it and advised it. We have an Hesse Nanobahn, but that patent expired, however, and we're not able to or we knew that. Nanobahn is still, we have 14 patents covering it, But don't you just wish that you had called like a pressure cooker in Instant Pot? Don't you just wish just come up with a silly name for a perfect copy. I think Instant Part is a, there is a great example of a good marketer. Instant Part is a great product. I think the messaging that they have is wonderful and the whole part home you in one, rather than wearing the founder of Instant Part is done a great job with that. And even my assistant, she loves Instant Part because of the ease of use. So that is something that in fact that Dave has done a great job teaching the world how to cook easier and not necessarily have to follow straight recipes. And just as a while, you know how to cook using just really on the fly, you can create your own recipes, your own creation. And so any day is another great innovation. Any day I think has great potential. I think in the coming years it's really going to change. It's going to get popular. And maybe like Instant Part, it will gain momentum and be a household work. - God bless, God willing, (laughs) Stanley, we appreciate you coming on, talking to us about all of these questions that the Discord community we have has been asking in just sort of in general. Even though we've talked about a lot of these topics, I think it's, I don't know why it seems complex or people just don't seem to appreciate like the facts out there. So thanks for laying them out there again. - No, it's a pleasure. And really the joy of cooking is really, you make it look simple and the way that you do it, it is simple and you create the feel. Yeah, you are helping to change the world, Dave. You guys kind of, you make it entertaining. - I mean, all I have to do for Stanley is get my golf game together. And I think where the world will be for Stanley. - Yeah, and really, Chef Corrie Lee, who is a buddy of yours, he is actually really good, Dave. He is so, I don't know who's better. Maybe one day we can find out. - You know how to push as well. You know how to push, Stanley. Corrie, Corrie, you're just better at everything. Clearly, I'm just gonna talk about him. - Come on, we know, we know. You are so, since then, when you've been so humble, Dave. - Yeah. Corrie, we bow to you. Thank you, Corrie Lee. Congratulations on your magnificence. Thank you very much, Corrie Lee. This podcast is dedicated to Chef Corrie Lee. - And his golf game, specifically. (laughing) - This is what he's gonna do. - Thanks Stanley. - Thanks Stanley. - Hey, wonderful talking to you guys. - That was our conversation with Stanley Cheng. He really is unbelievably amazing. And he has been so instrumental in almost everything that you use in a home kitchen and professional kitchen. And even if there's a product you use, that hasn't been actually made by him as probably somebody copied him. And that is just truth of the matter. So, and he's just too nice. He won't even talk shit about the people that sell garbage out there. - Got it, he wouldn't name names. - He wouldn't name names, ceramic non-stick companies. But it's true. We've talked about it before on this podcast. Anybody that says it's a non-stick ceramic or anything that's like a diamond, whatever, they may start a religion based on two stone tablets that are no longer found when the authorities come to check it out. (laughing) - Oh my God, oh my God. Give us five stars, though, regardless of your beliefs to him, just, yeah. (laughing) Thanks, Stanley. - Oh my God. - I won't say no more. (laughing) (upbeat music) - At Zockdock, we know you care about your health. 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