An Epstein Survivor's Story: Abuse, Blackmail & Why She Thinks He's Still Alive (EP 192)

Do you believe Jeffrey Epstein actually killed himself? Absolutely not. Who do you think had him killed? I don't think he's dead. Do you think he's still alive? I think so. Knowing Jeffrey Epstein for three years, he would never go down in history as a man that killed himself or allowed somebody to kill him. His ego and his pride is through the roof. So if you think he's still alive, where do you think he is? Totally laughing at us. I think he's in Israel. I was 14 when I met Jeffrey. I started working at 12. And she turns to me one day and she says, I know this really rich and powerful guy and he really likes to get massages from young girls. It's just a massage, Marina. You've been through so much worse with your stepfather. I'm just looking around and there's pictures of Prince Andrews, President Trump, Bill Clinton. I'm pretty sure there were so many other people that I didn't know at the time because I was just 14 years old. He would tell us, he's like, I own the banks. I own the presidents. I know a lot about people. And if I share what I know, it would be a disaster. Today's podcast guest is someone that I admire and respect a ton. Marina Lacerda is someone that has had to experience things that most people don't have to experience in their lifetime. And instead of cowering in the dark in her story, she just decided to stand boldly and come out publicly and be courageous and stand in the face of evil and share her story. Now, I want to caution anyone watching or listening. Viewer discretion is advised. The story is graphic. It's intense. It's dark. There's evil. And she talks a lot about her sexual, emotional, and physical abuse. But we're going to navigate her story with, honor and care. The Bible talks about how we should stand with those who have been oppressed and seek justice for those who have been exploited by evil, wicked, powerful people. And so it is an honor and a joy that I have the opportunity to get to talk to Marina Lacerda. And so I pray that her story encourages you to stand in the face of evil for truth and justice. Marina, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. So happy you're here. I know you've done a lot of interviews and you've, before diving into the dark, this and the headlines that people always know you as like who was Marina? You know, I was just a girl who went through so much in her life. And I think trying to navigate at a certain time, like what could I do with my life and a little bit lost. And then when I broke my silence, I kind of figured out what I wanted to do, but I always wanted, I always had a, you know, Oh, I think I'm going to save animals. I'm going to adopt animals. I'm going to open up, you know, like, like kind of like where, you know, an adoption center for dogs, you know, start saving them, but I'm so weak in the knees for them. I would have probably kept all of them. So I'm just a girl with a beautiful daughter who loves dogs and now really wants to help women and men, you know, speak about what they've been through. What was your life like as a kid or even early teenager growing up? You know, I had, it's crazy because when I come in, I do a lot of interviews. I'm like I had such a great upbringing, you know, upbringing and like my life is even as a child and as a teenager was great and people are like how you went through like all these horrific things and I'm like I understand but these are moments in life right like nobody wakes up happy every day like not even the richest person in the world right not even the healthiest person in the world is waking up like I'm happy I'm happy so yes I had very horrible moments but I still managed to enjoy myself with my family my friends you know, so it was good and bad I guess I should say. So you're from Brazil grew up in New York correct and what was that like growing up in the city was it chaos was it fun was it scary what was that like? Well, so when I moved from Brazil it was a you know total like culture shock right because Brazil is completely different you know and the way I grew up in Brazil you know we were you know middle class well poor struggling to be people you know. middle class and thank God for my grandparents and my uncle that really helped out my mom so you know we barely had anything you know I would go over to my grandmother's house if I wanted like good breakfast you know so thank God for that and like my ballet my jazz and my tap classes were paid by my uncle and when he would come to America he would bring me back a lot of things like Barbies you know he brought me back rollerblades one time and I swear to you like all of my friends were like oh my God we need to do this. They were all but we're all different sizes we would like go from one end of the street and then we you know get each other yeah exactly so and then when I came to America I was like whoa this is completely different you know even the way I dressed I got made fun of a lot and my body and I didn't develop very fast I feel like I think American girls or you know everybody's different I think everyone develops differently and I didn't develop very fast so I really got made fun of and in Brazil we don't have that like it doesn't matter what you wear it doesn't matter how you look I think that everybody you know all my friends in Brazil were very you know much different than my friends in America so it was it was a culture shock it was different are you an only child or do you have siblings I have a sister okay cool now what was your what was your family dynamic growing up in New York like off you know so when I came to New York my mom had already you know met her boyfriend and we when I came the first thing that my mom said to me and we were in a story of park and she said to me listen I just want to explain something to you you know here in America if you hit a child you know the parent goes to jail but I'm going to tell you one thing if you do the wrong thing I will smack you I will like you know she said it in Portuguese and I you know you'll be taken away you'll go to a house with a different family and I'll go to jail and I'll get released but you're going to be living with a different family so make sure you know to do the right thing because you know there will be consequences and not for me but for you so that always scared me because in Brazil you're allowed to you know discipline your child up to you know a certain extent and I think you know back then it was like very serious you know to discipline your child and in that way so I was always very scared of that so she met you know my my stepfather and I really I stayed a year away from my mom because I stayed in Brazil she came to America just to you know get things started and I think maybe two three months after I moved you know to America my stepfather started to put on and and yeah and how old were you I was eight years old in the living room yeah and he would lay me down on his lap like I would have my head on his lap and he would put like a sheet over my head and he would just watch now I'm eight years old I don't know what is going on right and I think even as adults like we are just so curious right everyone has curiosity so I would peek through the sheets and then I would see like these things that were happening so confusing to me you know because I grew up in a you know I grew up in Brazil with my grandmother and you know there was a church down the block we would go down to church my grandmother was like dinner lunch has everyone has to come here Sunday so we were very united like in and boys would try to do stuff to me in Brazil and my grandmother be like no that is not you know so I already knew like these things were not allowed so after a while he just took off the sheets off of my head and then I was watching porn with him and then next thing you know he started to reenact what was going on to the you know what was going on with me and I was completely confused because I didn't know anything about you know anything of sexual acts you know I just knew like a little tap kiss like that's all I knew like that's all boys would try to do with me in Brazil which I was still young but boys would try to do that and I was confused and I didn't know what was wrong I had no idea you know and my mom was at work and my stepfather had the schedule where he would come in and out and it wasn't like a set schedule so it went on for a really really long time then we moved in then my mom got pregnant with my sister and we moved into a bigger house and up until 10 10 and a half all these things were happening with me my stepfather was sexually abusing me and teaching me things that I wasn't supposed to be taught at that age right and it kind of messed me up later actually because all those because you know I started when you can't have intercourse when I had a partner and I was able to and I was at the right age I started to think that everything I was doing was sinful because I later you know when my mom caught me and my stepfather in the bed he was like rolling around with me and I didn't know and he threw me off the bed when she walked in and she was pissed and she was like what's going on here so then you know they went into the other room and they started to argue and then she came into my bedroom she said listen I know what's been going on never asked me just thought that you knew she's like it's never gonna happen again I spoke to your stepfather it'll never ever happen again don't worry about it and then she explained to me you know like listen this is an older man he can't be touching you this is not the right things to do you know and I was like okay well this is absolutely wrong he didn't stop he continued whoa so so you're eight nine years old it went from oh my goodness so so he's you're being sexually abused by your stepfather and your mom had known about it she found out at time she she found out then she was like it's gonna stop but it never stopped right and did she know that it hadn't stopped so then I so then I would go back to her and be like hey he's like doing this again you know he's he would creep into my room in the middle of the night and I'm like, would get so, you know, not only annoyed, but scared because now I don't, I don't want to say anything because as soon as I would tell him I'm going to say something, he would start physically abusing me. So I, and then later on, you know, like when it be the next day, I'd be like, mom, like he's doing it again. And she would go and argue with him. And then he would stop for like a month and then he would do it again. And then I'd go to her. It was a cycle that didn't break until I was 12 years old. Oh my goodness. So that's happening with your stepfather. You're being raised. Your mom is pregnant. What was, and you said you grew up kind of poor, struggling to be middle-class. Did, did money ever get in the way at that time? What was that like? Well, in Brazil, we were poor, struggling for middle-class. When we came to America, we were, you know, middle-class. It was, you know, it was pretty, you know, normal. You know, I had a bicycle. I, you know, had a few toys. I mean, I didn't have the, the coolest sneakers, you know, I think everyone was, and that's where the culture shock came in. Like everyone was wearing Jordans back then. And I was wearing like Pumas. Do you remember Pumas? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I had like Puma sneakers and maybe like the most I had were like the Spice Girl sneakers, like the platforms that everybody was wearing them. Those are the only two things. And like, I would have my birthday party at McDonald's, you know, and that for me was great, you know, so that was kind of the dynamic of how, you know, we were, but we, it, it was fine. And then I think that being also an immigrant doesn't help out in America. Cause we were immigrants, you know, we didn't have our papers, you know, and I think that causes a, you know, that, that's a big issue in America. When people come here without their papers, they start to look at jobs that sometimes is not the, you know, the best job for them, you know? And how did everything in between the abuse you were, experiencing at home, the pressures of life come like moving into the States, everything, the emotions, money, all of it. How did that shape you at that age? It's so weird because I think I got introduced to sex in such a young age and I feel like people at my age would play like school or play like, you know, like with dolls. I started to play like I was a teacher and I don't know how that happened. You know, I think it really, what really got to me was the fact that my mom would not go to the police after, you know, she found out and he wouldn't stop. And then I would tell her and she still wouldn't, you know, she's like, oh no, he's going to stop. And then she would tell me, okay, we're going to leave. We're going to set up and we're going to leave. And then we wouldn't leave. And I'm like, but why aren't we leaving? You know? And she's like, well, because we're immigrants. If we go to the police, they might, you know, send us back to Brazil. I don't have the money to raise you and your sister. We're just going to have to stick around. And I'm like, but I don't want to stick around. Like, I was 11 years old and cursing my mom out at that point. Where was your biological father at, at this time? It's weird because my biological father had four other kids and he was just not there. You know, he didn't do anything wrong, but he wasn't a present father. And I think my mom also was just like, okay, sign. So I signed off for my daughter to go to New York and she'll be back. And I never went back, you know, so he didn't know anything. My father is no longer here with us, but he, you know, he didn't know that I was getting abused. So your mom, your mom and your biological father, they weren't married. They were married. Oh, they were. So then she was just like, Hey, sign this paper. We're going to leave. And then she'll be back. And I never went back. And, you know, my, my father, you know, my mom is 68 now, he's 25 years older than her. So he was. Whoa. Yeah. He was already, you know, an old man, you know, and he's, you know, what is he going to do? You know? So, but I, I do remember, you know, going through all these things in my life and I was, you know, in my, in my head, I was like, why am I going through this? Like, why me? And I would just ask like, why God, like, why am I going through these things? Like, what did I ever do wrong? And I'm like, this has to be like a past life thing that I do something wrong in my past life. You know? I was very confused. And I think a lot of people that go through abuse, they're just, when I see, you know, messages on my platform, they're like, why am I going through this? Like, why, why, why is God doing this? You know? And I think only later on in life, you start to understand, like, God really gives you what you can handle. He will not give you what you can't handle. And I think the purpose of it is like, what are you going to do with all of this that you've been through? How can you change this narrative? You know, you, you have to change it and, and, and, you know, make it positive. In a lot of ways, the way that you were brought up unintentionally, we're talking what being abused physically and sexually by your stepfather, the, the pressures of life, everything in between leading up to really what's making you speak out your involvement with Jeffrey Epstein and all that other stuff in a way. And it, it, it's, it breaks my heart to say this, but it's true. You were almost like unintentionally groomed into this position just by the things that you had already experienced. And so that's why I'm really intrigued to kind of know everything in between that's happening after this. I mean, the thing that's really just breaks my heart is this idea that you were told very young, Hey, you can't speak up about it before even the sexual stuff happened. I mean, your, your, your mom's kind of like, Hey, you know, we can get disciplined back there, but here in America, you know, it's, which that, that is like somewhat true, but it's like, Hey, you can't discipline the same. It's like, don't say anything or we won't see each other again. And it's, and it's slowly, slowly, slowly goes. And I, you know, I know this is really a big part of your story, but how did you get involved in the world of Jeffrey Epstein? How did you get introduced to him? What was that like? My stepfather ended up going to jail. Uh, when we lived in this house, um, one of the roommates, cause they used to rent out two of the rooms. We had a four bedroom. So one of the roommates, um, he started to sexually abuse her. So she, I used to go to bird. I used to do anything not to be home. I kid you not anything I could do to not be home. I would go. So she found me in Burger King and she said to me, Hey, listen, I know your stepfather is abusing you and he's doing it to me too. So let's go to the one 14 precinct, which is in a story of Boulevard. And I said, I literally jumped. I was like 12 years old. I jumped out of my seat, not thinking of like any consequences, not thinking like, Oh my God. And this is just me back then. Like my mom is going to be so mad at me. Like she's going to be like, why did you go? You know, I just wanted this monster out of my life. I was, you know, up to the point where it's horrible to say, but I was like planning like how to kill this person because I was just trapped in a place where, you know, my mom would leave me home. Go to the supermarket, run errands, knowing that my stepfather's abusing me. So it was so confusing, you know? So when he went to jail, um, he did only six months because when I went, when I did tell my story to the cops, they were like, you're just jealous of your sister because she's born. And I was like, no, this is really happening to me. And they kept saying to me like, no, are you sure? Like your stepfather is going to go to jail and he's, you know, this is a very huge accusation. Like this is dangerous. And I was, you know, then I started to minimize my abuse. Like, oh, well he only touched my upper part. He only did it for a year. I started to get scared. So they only gave him six months of jail and they gave him five years of probation. So when he went to jail, my mom came to the prison eventually. And, you know, we went back home and, you know, his stuff was thrown on the floor and she was crying and she was so upset. Now me at 12 years old, I'm like, oh my God, finally I'm going to sleep. A night without worrying about if this man's going to come into my room, you know? And right there and then I knew that everything was going to change. My mom was like, well, you know, you can't do your ballet classes anymore because we can't afford them. Well, guess what? Now we're going to have to all live in one bedroom in this house because you wanted to go and tell the cops about your stepfather. So now we have to rent all the other bedrooms. You know, like if I wanted to do anything, she's like, well, now we can't like, you know, and it just became a lot like that. And I started, I was already kind of hanging out with the wrong people, you know? And my mom was the type of mom, like if I was taking my sister, my younger sister to the park and I was doing what I needed to do, I would have the night for myself, which is crazy, right? Like I have a 13 year old, 12 year old daughter who's going to be 13. I would never let my daughter out by herself. So I would go out with no problem. And that leads to meeting the wrong people and doing the wrong things. And then I had this girlfriend who I really, you know, was with every day. And, you know, she was definitely not the right person to hang out with. And she turns to me one day and she says, hey, listen, I know you're going through a lot of, you know, different things in life with your stepfather. I know you're going through this, you know, very hard time, but, you know, I know this really rich and powerful guy and he really likes to get massages from young girls. And I was like, okay, but why, why does he want to get a massage from me? She's like, well, he just likes young girls. He just likes, you know, pretty young girls. And it's just a massage, Marina. Like you've been through so much. much worse with your stepfather yeah and I was like okay I was like well that you know at the time she wasn't wrong you know before I entered Jeffrey Epstein's world I was like it's not that bad you know so we got in a cab we got there and she's like listen the only thing is he just wants you to take off your shirt it's just like being in a bikini she's like it's the same thing she just made it so okay and being home and not being able to buy the food that we wanted not being able to go to ballet and getting blamed every day the reason why we couldn't do these things were because I went to the police whoa yeah my mom was really ruthless with me like she would call me you know it's a thing we say in Portuguese it's called vagabundo which means like you're a hoe she'd be like she'd be like get up like go go go to school like I wouldn't want to get up to go to school because I was working at nighttime oh and so so your stepfather was really the he was really like the financial provider so when he leaves you lose all your stuff really what you did was bold courageous you're tired of it and your mom's blaming you you lose the stuff and so now when you're faced with this you're like I can get my stuff back I can be a provider you can't blame me you can only thank me if I start bringing money home exactly and so and then even even with the the years of abuse leading up you're like oh well my stepfather did this and that friend using that like torture well he did this to you all you got to do is you know exactly take your shirt off and you're like oh what you know I've been through worse it didn't make sense at the time and I also really wanted my relationship with I'm like I was and I think all Latin women are like this we are so like in love with our moms like our moms are like a rock and we just want to be like I just wanted our our friendship and our relationship to be the way it was before and I was willing to do anything for that and I think up until last year I was still doing that with my mom um so I I was already working I had worked you know I was working a real estate office I worked in an important export um factory I worked in a catering hall I I worked in so many different places and before this opportunity before this and you're like 14 or 12 years old how old were you I was 14 when I met Jeffrey I started working at 12 oh my goodness I'm like how is that even possible you're at a real estate office I was a secretary and the place is still there I used to work for Angelica her name and the real estate is called Capital Realty I used to pick up the phone Capital Realty and I worked there in the summer and I would work there after school and then I was like I had said to her I was like I need to work more she's like you go to school when are you gonna work she's like you can't work here you know so then I started working at the Catering Hall which would have it's a Jewish catering hall in Bedford Brooklyn and they wouldn't have they don't have parties all the time they can't have parties all the time Jewish people get married in in certain days and you know it's it's a little bit different and um then I started working in a Greek nightclub close to when I met Jeffrey at that young I was selling flowers whoa the name of the place was called Sirocco oh my goodness and so and let's not let's also talk about like these men that hired me were in their 40s and 50s they knew I was not 18. so these like let's talk about predators all over like my life has always been around predators which is insane oh my gosh and so was before I mean I I guess you wouldn't have been able to find this out if we're about to get into what the first experience was with with Epstein and all this other stuff but did this friend tell you how much money you were going to get paid and you were like oh this is way better than like me working four hours over here yeah so when I used to work at night you know I used to collect tips so you know I would work from I would get there at seven o'clock and I would have to you know would be me and two other girls and we would make the the it was called the bouquets and like Greek have these excuse me Greeks have these traditions where you break the flower and you throw on the singer okay they also pop open champagne they throw money on these singers they like I I don't know they're it's they have a really um I think it's pretty cool but um it's it's just their tradition to show respect of you know the singer singing the you know these beautiful songs and um I would come in at seven o'clock and I would leave the pending on where the last customer was or the last guest I would leave like five six in the morning what and then I would get there at seven at night and leave at five or six in the morning and then go to school and that's where my mom would be like get the f**k up she'd like get the f**k up like you're lazy b**ch like you're a vagabond and I'm like how am I a vagabond I just worked all these hours brought home like three four hundred dollars in tips like and your mom is talking to you like that that young oh my gosh and then I would go to school and then wherever I was I would just sleep wherever I was I would like we would be like getting a bagel before school and we would be in the stoop and I just fall asleep I'd be in class I'd just fall asleep and then it got to the point I'm like damn I don't even want to go to school because I'm so tired and I would like start cutting school I feel like I was completely misguided so to think that you could get that same amount of money and do it in a couple hours and get to sleep and go to school you're like oh this sounds good and it's not as bad so the build-up was just yeah I'm just wild it's interesting because from a biblical perspective satan everyone thinks of the devil as like this guy with who's red with a pitchfork and horns right and he's intimidating so if you see the devil you're like I'll stay away but people don't understand satan is very handsome and seductive and slick he's not like the red guy he's like in a tuxedo with the slick back hair and he knows what kind of to hear this build-up and then to hear this offer of going here's this much money in a short amount of time and it's not as bad as your childhood was here you go that to me like understanding I mean that just oh my goodness I've got so many questions but you you get in this cab your friend goes with you yes she goes with me and she had told me hey you're going to make three hundred dollars for the half an hour which I'm sorry I totally forgot to say a half an hour half an hour 40 minutes she's like we'll be there half an hour 40 minutes tops and I was like and I was sketched out by it I was like that's so weird but I knew her and I you know I already she already you know this is the thing this friend of mine was the kind of girl that always knew somebody well a man that wanted to either get beaten up or get like uh yeah I know or beaten up mm-hmm she knew all these guys and she would tell me she's like hey like I know this guy like he really likes he likes he wants to get burned he wants to get beaten up by by girls and at the time I was like oh yeah I definitely want to do that because I was hating older men and you would like basically let your rage out oh my god a hundred percent and then I would still make a little bit of money you know not three hundred dollars because they weren't yeah she wasn't getting that kind of money and I was like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't have you know um payout but she would always lead me to these things and I always tell her like listen I love to do this because like I'm so mad at older men right now but I always told her I don't want to be touched because I was always touched all my life so I was like I don't want anybody touching me so she already knew that I was okay with doing certain things but I was not okay with anybody touching me so when we went to Jeffries she already knew what my limits were so I believed that I was going to go there I was going to massage him for three hundred dollars and that was it you know and when we got there you know just being in Manhattan looking at this mansion you know with this huge wooden doors you know has his initials in the you know on the side of the door and she rang the the intercom and the the maid comes out she you know they asked who it was she comes out she opens the door she's wearing like a you know an outfit like a French maid I'm like wow like I've never even seen this in my life you know we go into his office waiting area which is on when you come in it's on your left hand side and we're sitting there we're waiting and I'm just like looking around and there's like pictures of everybody like Prince Andrews President Trump Bill Clinton I mean I'm pretty sure there was so many other people that I didn't know at the time you know because I was just 14 years old you know like framed on the wall and stuff like he had them on a he had a desk on this waiting room was also like kind of his office room he had another office room and he would he had a huge desk and he would have those pictures there but then he had like a like a bureau and it had pictures with Ghislaine who we were like is that his wife and he always had a little girl in the pictures with him too we and we you know as time went on we were like he's definitely married and has a daughter we eventually asked him which will get there and so when I got there and I saw all of this I was like whoa like this guy is like the real deal she's never brought me to a house to a mansion first of all there's no mansions in Astoria Queens just want to put that out there whoa and I never knew that there were mentioned mansions in Manhattan I always thought them as you know like you know people have like you know they live in apartments you know like a sky rise yeah you know maybe a penthouse exactly exactly never thought there'd be a mansion in Manhattan so um you know 10 minutes being there and I'm like feeling so weird because i've never ever been in a mansion before so i'm like whispering the whole time to her and she's like babe you can stop whispering like you can just talk normal because she felt so out of place you know very intimidated by just the whole situation so the maid comes and gets us and she says jeffrey's ready for you guys so we walk to the elevator now i'm walking to an elevator i'm like there's an elevator in this house like this is insane you know i'm 14 again i'm for me an elevator is just like in a in a place of business you know it's it's like it was so out of the world like everything was just so shocking to me and we get in the elevator we hit the third floor the doors open and there's like a hallway and he has like sketches of like naked girls and he has um like a statue of like a woman with like half of her body and all these weird things and we step into his massage room and my first first first the first thing that i observe is when i look up at his ceiling he has clouds and i was like wow this is such a way to be like relaxed like this man knows how to definitely get massages i still don't know why i'm here because he looks like he's really into like you know being relaxed or you know just being you know massaged i was like okay and there's you know a massage table in the middle and then right next to his massage table he had a little desk where he had his lotion but he did have also a huge uh bureau full of massage like massage lotions including victoria's secret which victoria's secret was so expensive at the time i don't know if you remember and you know girls at that time i would walk into victoria's secret and i would just go there to spray stuff on because i couldn't afford it so i was like mesmerized the fact that he had all these victoria's secrets and i was like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know victoria's secret lotions which he had much more expensive lotions in there by the way and um i get there and i'm like you know she's like all right she's like take off take off your shirt you know so i take off my shirt and i just have my bra and he comes in and he's like hi he comes in on a rope he's like hi my name is jeffrey and i said hi my name is marina he's like i've heard such wonderful things about you and i literally look at my friend like oh my god you've already said some things about me how great is that like thinking that she's telling him like hey you know my friend is from brazil she's struggling a lot you know um she's she's taking care of her family this is what i'm thinking i'm thinking she's already like kind of hooked me up with like telling him some of my story he lays down with his head down and he starts to ask me like hey do you go to school how old are you where are you from do you have a sister you have a brother where's your father you know and i didn't tell him my abuse me i was very embarrassed at the time about it and he was really nice you know really really nice and he's like hold on one second i have to get on the phone he got on the phone and we're just massaging him and you know in the middle of this conversation on the phone call he goes hit my calves hit my calves like go to my calves and i'm like okay so you know we're massaging him and then he hangs up the phone and he turns around and his towel comes off i'm just thinking he's probably gonna get up the towel came off by mistake and he looked at me and he's like you know come come here you know and i i came closer to his upper body and he was like um he turned around to me and he said um can i touch your boobs and i was like no and i i was like what what's going on here like this was not you know and then he goes can you take off your bra i was like i am not comfortable now i'm like what do i do where do i go i'm in the third floor of a mansion that i've never been before everything he had blocked off all his windows and put curtains over them it's completely dark the only light that we're getting is from this from the ceiling of clouds i'm looking at my friend like why would you do this you know and she got mad at me she was she said to me in portuguese she's like i'm not comfortable i'm not comfortable i'm not comfortable like oh you're being such a prude and then she comes over my side and he told her he goes don't worry it's okay it's gonna take some time but she'll get comfortable with me and in my head i was like absolutely not like this guy is out of his mind and i'm standing next to her and she is like right with jeffrey and she is leaning onto jeffrey and she is pinching his nipples so hard pulling them pinching him and he's like grabbing her and then he spits in his hand and he just starts you know stroking his private area and when i say stroke start stroking it so aggressively to the point where he's like picking up his head where he's having a hard time to climax i later on found out why and then i i'm just standing there like what is going on you know and you know he he finally climaxed and then he she you know turned to me and he said well it was nice to meet you he goes i'll be seeing you again and i just shook his hand and i didn't say anything she handed he handed her over the money we went downstairs and she was like what's wrong with you i'm like what do you mean i was like you you didn't tell me this i said i'm not used to this i said i'm used to going with you and beating up guys and making a little bit of money i said this is totally different she's like listen here and she like like throws it in my chest she's like any girl would have begged me to be here she's like i don't know why you're acting like this she's like listen you need to understand something you're an immigrant you right now don't have a lot of money and literally like at that time our dinner was like that noodle cup that's what we would eat like me my mom and my sister if we would have meat it would be ground beef and maybe sometimes and she's like here she's like any girl would have been happy to be here she's like i don't know why you're acting like this i'm like because you didn't tell me any of this she's like well you need this this guy over here he knows people he's gonna get you places he's gonna he's gonna hook you up with stuff and i'm like i understand but i'm not comfortable with this you know she's like listen he's coming back in town and he's gonna want to see you so i'll call you and i you know we we we went our way and i in my head i was like i'm never gonna see him but i did oh my goodness i mean what is going on in your mind after that first that's heavy that's really heavy i can't even imagine yeah i mean what what is going on in your mind after that first interaction when you get home i'm gonna be honest with you because i am a very honest person i didn't think anything of it i just thought i made money i could give it to my mom we could buy some food and i needed to get ready because i had work that night and i needed to move on with my life you know my my thing really was i needed to provide for my mom because i messed up because i went to the police and i told on my stepfather you know and i think that really i think that's been my problem up until last year like trying to make things right with my mom or ask for validation for my mom or just you know asking her to talk about what happened you know and my mom will never admit that like she was wrong and i think like that's the only thing i want to hear from her like hey i i messed up like and i think like being a mom or a dad it doesn't mean that you are perfect you're still human you're allowed to make mistakes i'm a parent i make mistakes you know yeah and i i think the the main thing here is that i have to take accountability for it and say you know what i messed up i messed up i i really messed up but how can i make it up to you today it shocks me but doesn't shock me at the same time that you were kind of i didn't think anything about it because part of me is like out of everything you've shared leading up to this moment that sounds like the most intense sexual anything that has been described at least just from our conversation here i i again i haven't lived it but i think you shared i'm like wow that's intense i think my most intense moment my mom one day got upset at my stepfather because you know i had told her that he was you know because it was that cycle oh he's doing it again and she would get in a fight with him so one night she says we're gonna sleep in the living room and the living room it was a bed but she she made it into a couch and the top bed had two two two uh mattress so she moved one to the to the floor and i slept on the floor and she slept on top mm-hmm and in the middle of the night my stepfather came into the living room and he crept into her bed and he was like kind of like trying to like make things right and i'm in the bottom bed in the bottom mattress and he turns and and i hear her like stop you know like you know like arguing and next thing i know they start having sex and my mom is morning and my friend the other day did something similar to that like she's she did something similar to that and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna sleep in the like a moment nothing so she was just like trying to explain something and i said oh don't do that i said that just brought me back really bad memories yeah and she's like why and i had to explain it to her so my mom was me Now, I'm thinking, what is going on? Like, why is she mucking? You know, I wasn't thinking that we're having sex. And I went to go tap my mom, and my mom hit me. And she's like, go to sleep. So, I had to lay in that mattress, listening to my mom and my stepfather have sex and her mucking. I think that memory for me is, like, one of the worst memories ever. Because, like, nobody wants to see or hear their mom have sex. I mean, before we go any further, I'm just, I'm so sorry. I mean, this is so, and I know you're going to say, well, you know, I've been through this. And I, you know, but, like, really, I'm just, I mean, for you, that's normal. But that's not normal, you know. And I'm, I don't, I'm so sorry. But I can totally see how now, I mean, that clarity. And there's probably so much more that you haven't said leading up to first encounters with Jeffrey Epstein. And then you're just like, well, I mean, that was. That's weird, but not that bad. And you just kind of let it, let it slide. But that wasn't, and you said that he went out of town and next time he would come out of town. So this wasn't like a every night gig. This was a every now and then kind of deal. Or it became, it became more consistent. Yeah. Oh, man. He had reached out to my friend and he's like, hey, I'm in town. I want to see Marina. So she reaches out to me and she's like, hey, listen, Jeffrey's in town. He really likes you. He wants to see you. And struggling. You know, my mom and I were. She just really, I think until today, I think my mom just does not like me. I think she thinks that I liked the abuse of my stepfather. I think she became jealous. I don't know what happened with that. And I was like, I'm going to go. And you know what? I'm going to go and I'm going to prove to him that I'm not like my friend. I'm going to prove to him that like. I am worthy more like I have more to bring to the plate. Like he's somebody that can help me. So like maybe if I show him that I have way more than that, he will take me serious. So I said to her, I said, you know what? OK, yeah, let's let's set it up and go. And when I went back, he was extremely nice. He didn't try to touch me. He didn't ask me to remove my bra. He talked to me. I gave him a massage. And did you go by yourself that second? No, she she came. And then he was very nice and she didn't think anything of it. I think she already knew what he was doing. And then he was like, listen, you know, you can start coming here by yourself. And I was like, yeah, I said, I don't have a problem because now I'm like, OK, he understands. He completely understands that I'm not doing any of these things. So I started to go there alone and I would see him sometimes two, three times a week, depending how, you know, how much time he was in New York. And eventually it was. It was crazy. I was like completely naked. It's like, how did I get here? You know, it's like one day I came in. He's like, well, come on, just like take off your bra. Like, you know, you know, we're friends. Like, I'm not going to do anything to you. Like, I just want to see them. You know, I just I just want you to be I want you to be free and feel comfortable. And just getting to know and the grooming process. I was like, OK, you know, and then next thing you know, take off your pants. I'm like, OK, he's he hasn't done anything. And the next thing you know, I'm naked. And the next thing you know, he's actually abusive. I mean, next thing you know, he's like me. And the next thing I know, he's getting he's he's calling the girls in the room and me in front of the girls and telling the girls like, hey, you want to get places you want to do things. You need to be a good girl like Marina. Whoa. So he would use you as like as as a as an example to say, hey, if you want help here, if you want money, if you want to. You want to increase your life. You got to do what she's doing. Oh, my gosh. And I think it's, you know, something that I think a lot of some of the survivors don't like to talk about it. There comes a time that Jeffrey Epstein no longer is interested in you. And then he starts to ask you, hey, how about your sister? And I'm like, nope, I would never. My sister's eight years younger than me. And for him, it was like, oh, yes, like this is exactly what I wanted. And I was like, no. Because I my mom went back to Brazil and my mom couldn't come back. My mom sent my sister back to Brazil because my stepfather ended up getting deported. So she my my my little sister was like, I want to go see my father. And my mom, instead of being honest with her or maybe not honest, just saying like, hey, it's not going to happen. You know, my mom's like, oh, well, no, you know, you can't. My sister's like, but why? But why? And my mom's like, you know what? She wants to go. My sister was eight years old. I'm going to send her. And I was like, no, I'm like, this guy's a pedophile. What are you talking about? Oh, no, he's not going to do it. It's her daughter. I'm like, I don't think that's how it works. I feel like pedophiles don't care if you're like their cousins or if they're their your kids. They like young children. They're going to do something right. And my mom sent my sister and my sister was born in America. So she's an American citizen. At the time, we were still immigrants. And she said to me, I said, I don't think you should send her because if you send her, you're not going to be able to get her. And he's not going to send her back. It's exactly what happened. My sister. My sister gets there. I can hear on the phone that she is being sexually abused by my stepfather. And she's like, Mom, she's telling my mom, I want you to come live here. And my mom's like, I can't. If I go there, I can't come back to America. She's like, I really want you to live with me and dad. So my mom ends up dropping everything, goes to Brazil. Then my sister's like, I want to go see my sister in New York, which was me. And she's like, OK, go visit your sister. My sister comes to New York and she's like, yeah, well, dad. Dad has been doing this. And then he's also been doing it to all the girls in the neighborhood. So now I have no friends. So I'm like, you're not going back to Brazil. So my sister, I took care of my sister from the ages of 11 until 17. And in between that time, my sister became epileptic. Oh, my God. And I was completely clueless what epilepsy was. Yeah. Completely clueless. I had no idea. And were you living with anyone else but yourself? I was actually. I had my own apartment at that time. And how old were you? I had a lease at 15 years old. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So I had to move out because after my stepfather got out of jail, maybe two months or three months after, my mom was like, hey, your stepfather's moving back home. I was like, what? I was like, what do you mean? Like, I'm like 14 and a half, like almost 15. So my boyfriend at the time was like, you're not going like we're going to rent an apartment. Meanwhile, my ex-boyfriend at the time, beautiful, awesome parents. I mean, like. I because, you know, obviously I didn't have the best parents. I was just like, you know, listen, you don't have to. You have like a really good home. He's like, I'm not letting you go back there. So we ended up finding an apartment across the street from my my old from my apartment. I know it was it was insane, but it was the only apartment that we could find. And then eventually we moved into another apartment, which was much bigger. But we the the which is crazy because he's he's still a lawyer, this guy. And he was. He was my he was my landlord, my landlord. Thank you. And he did a lease under mine and my ex-boyfriend's name. And I think my mom was in there, too, because I think he needed to use an adult. And yeah, I had my own apartment at 15. And eventually, you know, my boyfriend cheated on me, which I don't blame him because we were so young, you know, and so misguided. And we were all doing drugs at the time. And he cheated on me. And I went back home with my little bicycle. One night because I found out he was cheating on me. And I slept here and I was so pissed. I was like, I can't believe you cheated on me. He was he was 16, 17 at the time. He was a year older than me. And he you know, the next day he goes, listen, Marina, like I know like you don't want to be back home with your stepfather. So just just come back over here. Like, I'll leave. So when he left, I ended up having the this four bedroom apartment, two bathrooms by myself. And I was like, whoa, like I was splitting bills with somebody. What do I do? So I just rented out all my rooms. Whoa. Yeah. And then you're when your sister comes and moves in, how long were you interacting and working for Jeffrey Epstein? So from what I remember, I was with I was working or I guess with him from the ages of 14 until 17. So it was 2002 until 2005. And then he just got you said he just got tired of you. And that's what eventually he was like, hey, he's like, how about you bring your sister? And I was like, no, absolutely not. Like I like my little sister for me was like my like. Yeah. You just want to protect. Yeah. Like I already was like my my little daughter, you know, and I was like, no. And he's like, well, he's like, you got to bring me somebody. He's like, I'm like getting bored of you. And I'm like, I'm not bringing anybody here. I'm like, I'm embarrassed of this. This is super embarrassing. Didn't tell any of my friends, you know. But it so happened that I met this European girl on my block and I was still living across the street at the time across the street from my old apartment from where I lived with my mom. And I was walking my dog and this girl was sitting on a stoop and we just became friends. And she was like, you know, my brother is abusing me. My brother, you know, has his girlfriend. He's like, you know, physically abusing us. And then one of her mom's friends. uncle was like locking her up in the bathroom and sexually abusing her she was going through so much so I was like hey listen come live with me me and my boyfriend so she moves in with me and she's like maybe six months older than me and I came home one day and she always used to ask me she's like where do you go in the city she's like where are you going I'm like oh I just go I walk around I would never tell her yeah so one day I'm like hey I like want to tell you this but I'm so embarrassed and I told her like everything about Jeffrey Epstein and she's like I want to go there she's like I need the money and I'm like you know but I have to be honest with you like it'll eventually lead up to this she's like I don't care she's like I need money I don't want to live with you for the rest of your life and I'm like okay I'm like you sure you want to go she's like yes I want to go and I brought her there and then it was like we knew another friend and this other friend wanted to go and then next thing you know you're like oh my god I'm going to go to the hospital and I'm like oh my god I'm going to go to the hospital all of Astoria all these Latin all these European girls just didn't come from a good home were misguided were using drugs a lot of them also came from another country and their parents were like you know Brazilian people have these this thing Latin people I'm sorry not just Brazilian people Latin parents have this thing like hey we'll give you $5,000 you go to America and go rent the room out and go to school no 16 17 15 year old is going to come to America and do an English like and you know go to English school and learn English and be able to survive on $5,000 and they're like well you'll get a babysitting job how are you going to get a babysitting job with no English no background no experience you know American people are not like Brazilian people they're like they want to go through your background and see like where you worked so it doesn't work out that way and when these young women come to the country the first thing they do is like what can I do to make money so then everybody in Astoria kind of knew that me and this girl were seeing Jeffrey Epstein so everybody would come up to us hey listen we heard that you know you're giving massages and we would be embarrassed like no no we want to go to like we want to get out of our house like and then some of these girls would live in my house for like six three months at a time and they would move on and you know some of these girls I think that I don't that I don't speak to Jeffrey Epstein ended up helping them and people were coming up to you because he was popular powerful and then they had just heard through other people so they're like it's not like just oh we're going and given we're going and working for this random man it's like oh we want to go talk to the really rich guy exactly and get get the money and all these women you know all these girls didn't come from a healthy family you know like a good dynamic and I'm not when I say this I'm not talking about like a broken home like a divorce because they're a divorce I'm I'm going through a divorce right now and me and my ex-husband we co-parent like we are on top of it you know we talk about everything and I'm not talking about that I'm talking about there's drug abuse home a lot of these moms did not care a lot of these parents did not care a lot of these parents weren't present they weren't even in the country you know so it's it's people need to understand that you know did you have his personal phone number because then you started going alone no so so how were you knowing when to go over there you had like someone that secretary gotcha I mean do you ever think about the maid or the secretary all the time all the time right and and they knew it was going on because the maid took you up there you said it earlier and she was like all right the maid the driver um sometimes the maid wasn't there he would have his um I guess security or his driver would open up the door for us I've had furniture delivered in my apartment by Jeffrey Epstein because I was like oh you know I need to get new furniture he was like I'm getting rid of my basement or wherever he said it was he's like I'll just I'll I'll have my driver um send it over to you so he like gave me all his old furniture um there were so many things that now I look at it I'm like wow like we would walk into his mansion on broad daylight where Howard Lutwick was like lives right close to him so it's like you would think like people are outside looking like there's people in Manhattan all the time you know where he lived it was pretty you know there was a lot of people walking but I think that you know we have that saying like in New York like just mind your business like you know like keep to yourself so I think that's a very New York thing like just if it's if it's not your business then just stay out of it you know it's like almost like my abuse with my stepfather everybody knew about it like my neighbors downstairs knew about it my best friend's mom knew about it my friend's parents knew about it because they were coming over and they were getting abused and they would go home and then they weren't allowed to come back so nobody said anything so it went on for a long time nobody wants to get involved with the police I figured you know I mean I can also understand the intimidation factor of someone like a Jeffrey Epstein going not only is this guy abusing me but powerful wealthy and in your shoes from what you've described I'm an immigrant with no dad and no money I'm not messing with the really rich powerful popular guy and he made it clear too he made it clear not to mess with him oh he would tell us he's like I own the banks I own the government I own the presidents I own Prince I know a lot about people and if I share what I know it would be a disaster he's like I know he's like I know everything about everybody and he used to be you know later on we used to when me and my girlfriend used to go there he'd be on the phone with celebrities he'd be on the phone with all these you know some of these people from Congress and he would put us on the phone with them like say hi to this you know beautiful young girl that's giving me a massage and they'd be like hey and we would feel like oh my god he's he's like he's he's he's we're important he's like showing us off and we'd be like hey you know like so happy like there was one celebrity that were like oh my god like we think he's so funny we absolutely love him like oh my god I can't believe you're friends with him he's like I'll call him back and he's like I'll call him back and he's like I'll call him up right now he called him up and we're like we're like oh my god we're huge fans of yours like we think you're so funny we absolutely love you um and he's like yeah he's like and then he got on the phone with back with Jeffrey he's like hey Jeffrey we're supposed to fly to you know to this place soon you know he's like yeah yeah he's like I just wanted you know you to say hi to the girls the girls are huge fan of yours so he would brag about that he was getting massaged by young girls do you believe Jeffrey Epstein actually killed himself absolutely not who do you think had him killed I don't think he's I don't think he's dead think he's still alive I think so oh my goodness what do you think I don't know I remember I just I just turned this whole thing over I was like what do you think I I just want to know I remember like my friends and I would talk about it I was a sophomore in high school and we would we would like talk about like you're like so young that it's like I almost want to be like stop being young because I'm so old he's like I was a sophomore in high school I'm like what well I just remember like we were we were I was I'd be a sophomore in high school and we would talk about a lot of stuff we were talking about aliens we were talking about uh you know well now you guys can go through the ufo files I don't really care yeah you said earlier like I don't really care about that it's whatever like you know but that we would talk about it and we were all like no we don't think he killed himself we don't we don't think he killed himself but we never really had the thought of like oh is he still alive we just thought he didn't kill himself somebody killed him but could he be alive I don't know because he's still alive I don't know because he's still alive because I see all these videos online where people think they saw them and and things like that and then I remember I saw Palm Beach Pete no no I was gonna ask you if you knew who that was yes we do I do know Palm Beach Pete um through a friend of mine knows him very well and he's very annoyed about the situation for someone that doesn't know who Palm Beach Pete is he's this guy that looks just like just like Jeffrey Epstein and he happens to live in Florida but it's and no not only just live in Florida it's like two blocks away from his house is it really yes oh wow well it is it's not him it's not him he's very annoyed by that he looks like Jeffrey Epstein and I also can't even control that it's like yeah and also like we also have to understand like we are like why are we praising this person like why are we glorifying somebody that looks like Jeffrey Epstein I don't like that I don't like that either culture where like people are amazed by memes and they glorify like the yeah it's it's weird like weird yeah the AI the AI and stuff it's bad and then now all of a sudden there was like a note that they found in his cell did you see that yeah just so the other day where it said like um it was like scribble writing and you could barely read it and not fun yeah first of all so I just have to say this knowing Jeffrey Epstein for three years he would never go down in history as a man that killed himself or allowed somebody to kill him he has his his ego and his pride is through the roof so if you think he's he is totally laughing at us no I mean I I think he's in Israel and I mean I could be wrong maybe somebody did kill him but I think he's still alive I think he was somebody that you know was too important to stay alive right let's say too important to stay alive knew too much but then he was somebody also too important to be like okay like somebody can kill him or because he was never killed himself I I can promise you that like there's no way Jeffrey Epstein would go down down in history as a person that chickened out and killed himself because i know people like oh my god you have to be brave to kill yourself i don't think that i think you're trying to run away from your problems and you know you are you know just you are unfortunately you are a weak link and you want to kill yourself like you want to get away from your problems and it's the easiest way out right so i don't think that's jeffrey epstein i think he is the type of person that's like i am going to stay alive i am going to beat the system and everyone here is going to help me because i got stuff on you on you on you on you and you and everyone is going to do whatever it takes to keep me alive and get me out of here so i i think he's alive did you ever travel with him go anywhere i was an immigrant so you couldn't i couldn't and also a lot of people asked me like you weren't trafficked to other people the only person i was trafficked to was galane people have to remember this you we were like hood girls does that make sense like we were from the streets like we had this mentality of like we needed to make money and we just needed to pay for our bills and take care of what we need to take care of jeffrey was not going to bring us around his friends that that was for sure and traveling i mean at that time we were so scared like we wouldn't i wouldn't even get up and go to florida you know i was living in new york and like all my friends like oh we're going to florida i'm like yeah i'm not going because i don't have my papers you know at that time it's like how it is now how ice is now like people don't even want to travel you know forget about playing now cars people don't make car people don't want to travel because they're scared of ice you know so you started becoming public about this september of 2025 so not even a year ago yeah what was it like keeping all of this private up until last year when the fbi came to me in 2008 and i didn't go i got subpoenaed in 2008 to go to west palm right because he got the sweetheart deal in 2008 and i was scared and i called him when the fbi came and knocked on my door the house that i was living by myself on 41st street they came and they knocked on my door and i like closed the door on them i was like i'm not talking to you and literally the fbi agent threw her card and was like you're gonna talk to me whether you're whether you like it or not so i went upstairs and i called jeffrey and i was like why are people why is the fbi calling from like calling me and asking me about you he was like don't call me back don't call me don't call the office he's like i'm gonna have a lawyer call you so he got a lawyer for me and when i went to the lawyer's office i was like uh am i supposed to be honest here because like because i i knew they knew like there was no way that they did not know what jeffrey epstein was doing they were like you need to be very honest here and i started to be honest because i was like these people are not protecting me and when i was honest about the whole situation they were like you're going to jail and i was like what they're like you're going to jail you mean to tell me you brought your friends to jeffrey's epstein's house i said he asked me for it and a lot of these girls needed to go they were like you're gonna go to jail so i was like what i'm going to jail they're like yeah you might have to go to jail and i was like so i was so scared i was like wow man and i remember it was june in 2008 it was close to my birthday i was like i can't believe this is happening close to my birthday so it was such a such a time where like i like like i just erased everything from my mind all i know is that one day i got a phone call saying hey don't worry you don't need to go to west palm you don't need to do nothing i was like okay i was like i i never you know and back then we i didn't look up jeffrey epstein i was just like thank god i don't have to do this right then fast forward 2019 i'm you know separated from my my husband at the time we had separated living with my daughter now my mom's back in america living with me and the fbi knocks on my door i wasn't home my mom is like what did you do and i was like nothing i'm like working now at that time i was working in a strip club as a manager okay as a vip manager and i'm like absolutely nothing i have a legal job i'm not doing anything illegal like i know i owe money for my taxes but i was like the f you know the cops at the time i thought it was the cops so i was like oh my god i registered my car in new jersey and i live in new york because i didn't want to pay um i don't want to pay high insurance you know and i was like oh they caught me they caught me with that and i'm in the supermarket and i'm calling my friend i'm but listen bail me out because i need to get bailed out because i screwed up because i wanted to be a jerk and like put my insurance in jersey so i come back home and you know i open up my door and i close the door and the f you know the cops that i thought was the cops it was actually the fbi they knock on the door and they're like hi are you marina lissard and i was like yes i am they're like can we come in and i said sure so my mom went upstairs with my daughter and i said we want to talk to you about jeffrey epstein and my whole body my heart just like dropped i was like this can't be this can't be true like this can't be serious like this is gonna haunt me for the rest of my life from 2008 to 2019 i said oh so you know we started talking a little bit and they started to ask more deep questions and i said i'm sorry we can't talk about this right now i have my my daughter upstairs my mom's upstairs and they were like it's okay we're gonna give you a list of lawyers you do have a right you know you have a right to to obtain a lawyer so we're gonna give you a chance to get a lawyer and you know when i got a lawyer they still didn't explain to me that i was supposed to go to west palm and if i would have went to west palm jeffrey would have never gotten that sweetheart deal because they started they would have started investigating in new york but he knew to take that sweetheart deal because if he didn't i was going to go on stand and if i would have went on stand there's a whole bunch of other girls in new york we thought this was only happening in west palm can you explain the sweetheart deal the sweetheart deal was alexa costa which was in 2008 he had um well jeffrey epstein at the time this is from you know going back and understanding what i can't understand because it gets confusing and then not having the files released we can't really understand everything right so um jeffrey epstein had gotten caught for procuring a minor prostitute a minor which i find that crazy because can a minor really be a prostitute right like i feel like that's a weird i i still don't understand that so he got caught with that and then he uh and got caught in west palm and they you know were saying like hey listen you're you're gonna go to jail for a really long time and then the f-bite comes to me and they're like hey we know about you that's when i had to call i called jeffrey and i'm like but why are they looking for so his mind was like let me get her a lawyer that's gonna be on my side because if she goes and finds another lawyer which i didn't have money at the time he was like they're they're gonna tell her she needs to go on stand like you know but i had already gotten subpoena so i had no choice so what i think what happened was alexa costa and everybody was like listen if you don't take this you're gonna have this girl from new york come in and testify against you and if she testify against you she's gonna tell them about all the things that you've done in new york including other women other girls i'm sorry and these other girls brought other girls these other girls it's just such a huge pyramid and so alexa costa was like listen just do 13 months and you know you'll be set like you'll be able to you know to have work release and all that and um jeffrey epstein took it and he was like yeah i'm gonna take it and then i didn't have to go to west palm so that's why they call it the sweetheart deal because if he didn't take that i would have went on stand and um he would have definitely they would have investigated a little bit further into new york you've talked about how you only really started to understand what had happened to you until you started to speak out what do you mean by that well when you're abused you go into different cycles of abuse right i got into my marriage and when i first got into my marriage i was like i'm gonna go into my marriage and when i first met my husband i was like oh my god he's jealous it's so cute it's not cute right and that progressed into something even worse and then my ex-husband was physically abusing me it was so bad to the point where like i've had a gun pointed to my head i got body slammed and then when i got pregnant it was like he would leave the house he would leave me home he would never be in the house he was cheating on me and he would be like telling me like listen you're gonna stay home and that's it you're pregnant and that's it and then you're gonna stay and i had to get married to him i didn't want to get married and i didn't want to get married in an orthodox church i wanted to get married in the beach you know i never had gotten baptized so then i had to get baptized i had to do all these things just to to get married to this man and his i just felt so much pressure you know and then i had my daughter and it was like almost like he got a little bit softer and he like didn't physically abuse me but it was so much emotional abuse it was like oh my god like i i can't do this and that's when we separated and then when the fbi came looking for me in 2019 i went right back to him and it was even worse because i wasn't working because covid happened and now i was prescribed xanax but then i started to abuse it so now i am taking xanax like 10 15 pills a day whoa just to cope just to be numb wow just to be numb but wouldn't you i i can understand that but would you feel like you'd been numb since eight years old because you're you're from that from what you said i mean i get like the feeling of numbness but just in general from eight years old to what you're saying now it's just different forms of abuse whether it was sexual emotional physical and so you're kind of not really getting to process it until you speak out and that's i just wanted i i don't know you you still feel things you know especially when the fbi is on you you know and you have all this pressure to testify against somebody and then you also have to tell your friends that you're about to tell the fbi about them as well so it was a lot of pressure and um i i just really started to and and the thing is the xanax i was getting it was from the street so it wasn't even xanax it was like fentanyl oh it was really bad it was really bad and then covid happened and i was like oh my god like nobody was working my daughter didn't have to go to school i was just taking like a whole handful and it just shows how absent my husband was that he did not know that i was on drugs like nobody knew and we made the decision to move down to florida so i went and bought 4 000 pills of xanax and put it in a box of one of the moving boxes that was coming down to florida and i just threw it in there now not knowing like what box was it we had over 200 boxes because we put numbers on it and i just threw it in there and i just threw it in there and i just put numbers on them just threw in a box and our our moving day got pushed back and i was like oh okay so now i call you know the guy that i used you know used to get my my drug dealer i was like hey i need more xanax he's like i can't i gave you 4 000 xanax i'm like oh my god i have no more xanax he's like i don't know what to tell you so then i started to get withdrawals and now i'm not telling anybody because i have no more xanax right not sleeping not eating like my stomach was a complete mess and by the fifth day without xanax i'm laying in bed with my ex well my husband at the time and my daughter and i fall over and i start to seize and i think every you know everybody was confused i didn't know what was happening and i'm seizing and next thing you know i am in my driveway with my orange pants and my adidas sneakers that i had at the time and i'm in my driveway with my orange pants and my adidas sneakers and i'm in my driveway and i'm looking down and i'm like like confused you know but i was i was i was awake like my eyes were open but i you know when you have a seizure the oxygen is not going to your brain so it takes a while for you to fully understand and to like you know actually be up i was only aware when i was in my driveway and i looked down i'm like well and i start to fight everybody like no no no you know i don't want to go on the ambulance because i'm confused yeah and they were like no no ma'am you had a seizure and i was like oh wow so the whole ride to the hospital i was just laying there i was like oh my god like i really wanted to stop but this is a problem with people that are addicted to drugs and to alcohol they're like one more day only one more day one more day one more day it's so hard to stop you want to stop but the addiction is so real it just takes over everything so when i got to the hospital everybody was like all right we're gonna set up an mri you know they're like setting up all these things and i was like oh my god i'm gonna have to stop i'm gonna have to stop i'm gonna have to stop i need to be honest here i am highly addicted to xanax and my husband at the time was like what he's like what do you mean he's like how i was like i've been getting them from the street and i'm been taking 15 to 20 pills a day the doctor looked at me he's like how are you alive i was like i don't know he was like yeah so i was like yeah i want to stop and they were like okay well we need to do an mri on you but i was so my body was so so out of that i couldn't get into the mri machine i was like no no take me out i mean i was so paranoid about everything and i got out of there and my ex-husband was like you're not set stepping foot in new york you're going straight to florida and i was like all right fine so i go to florida and now i'm in florida and now i'm like oh my god i have only been with alzanax for seven years eight days in my body so now i'm still withdrawing and i i can't eat i can't sleep i'm having panic attacks like to the point where i would get up i'm like you know so now i'm going to the doctor the doctor's giving me antidepressants and i'm like but i'm not depressed i'm just having panic attacks i was living at the doctor for like six months she was like listen you need to stop coming here because there's nothing i could do for you and she was right there was nothing she could do for me i should have went to a rehab center not knowing much about it you think rehab it's like trying to slow down off with drugs no it helps you like you know get your body back to what it is so i went through a very i would say 18 months my body started to shift back again to somewhat uh what i would say a normal body wow and what was the moment after all of this even the the struggle with drug addiction what moment changed where you were like i'm going to about everything i've gone through so i went to virginia um i went to virginia gofrey's memorial when she first passed away in west palm and um britney and brad who are my lawyers they um actually were looking for me for a really long time they weren't my original or my original lawyers but they were looking for me and when they found out i moved to florida they found me and they were like we want to we want to meet you and i'm like okay they're like you have like a very important you're a very important piece of this and now britney and brad you know uh we're working on the case for years they did the filthy rich documentary they were doing you know investigating this and for years so they were just trying to figure out who was minor victim one like who is this girl we want to meet her so we ended up having dinner together and me britney and brad and they were like you know we've been trying to look for you since 2007 i was like whoa yeah i know i was like wow i feel like it wasn't that hard to find you know they're like yeah well we've been looking for you we wanted because they really wanted me to go to west palm yeah but if i would have known that they wanted me to go to west palm i would have were they involved in the sweetheart deal they weren't involved they were just like they were they they were the lawyers for west palm gotcha west palm gotcha so they were like if we get this girl from new york he may not get the sweetheart deal but you know there was so much corruption behind it that they couldn't you know that that's why they were looking for me like we just want to get this girl here they didn't know that jeffrey epsine had hired the lawyer for me you know they had no idea and when did you meet them i met them in 2024 or 25 i think over a decade they looked for you yes oh my gosh and all the girls that like were in florida that knew me or you know they just they they didn't they couldn't find my number they didn't like they didn't want you know they don't want to look for me they just didn't you know so it was like so weird so so they were like you know we had dinner they're like well it's so nice to meet you so we kept in touch you know and they were like hey listen virginia you know who is one of your survivor sisters now i didn't know about the survivor sisters i didn't know about the girls in west palm like you know all this so they were like we want you to come you know it's going to be a memorial for her and i said of course i'll come and i get there and of course like i know i'm going to be there and i'm going to be there and i'm going to be there and i'm a couple of the girls and um you know i was like wow like okay there's like a lot of us you know there's girls in here from new york that moved from new york to florida as well and um i get there and it's beautiful memorial oh my god i've never met virginia but you know between her brother and her sister-in-law speaking and um sigrid which is you know was virginia's lawyer i mean i was crying i was like i've never met virginia and i'm like oh my god i'm going to be there and i'm going to get this beautiful soul but like she's worked so hard and was you know victim shamed and people were calling her a liar and like all these things and i was like wow this is insane you know so in the end of the memorial we all had little butterflies in the cup and we let it you know let it out because she loves butterflies and um i got to speak some to some of my you know survivor sisters and you know not about the abuse and just talking about how they've been doing a like wow that's that's pretty cool you know um and i think three four months later if i'm not mistaken yeah three four two three four months later britney's like hey would you want to you know talk about your abuse in front of the capitol and i was like whoa that's a bit much she's like well listen you think about it you know it's it's something that you know it's an option you know if you know you want to do advocacy work and you want to you know maybe you know change some lives and you know get other women to speak and you know it's it's something that you know it's an it would be nice for you to open up yeah i said i gotta think about it so i i spoke to my husband at the time he was like you're crazy you're gonna go out there this is gonna you know this is gonna mess up Victoria's life this is gonna mess up my life you know and I was like how would it mess up your lives this is something that happened to me everything that this is the problem with my ex everything was about him it was like wait a minute I went through this abuse I'm the one that should be worried he's like no he's like no I told my family in Brazil they're like who the hell is gonna want to hear your story like what are you talking about like nobody wants to hear your story nobody nobody cares about like this this story like it happens to everybody and I was like wow nobody's backing me up on this my friends were like girl don't do it like this like for what and I'm like I feel like we should be changing the culture we should break bringing awareness we should there's more Epstein survivors there are people that don't talk about their abuse no matter if it's Jeffrey Epstein a billionaire uh you know a poor guy a black guy a blue guy like it doesn't matter like people are getting abused they're getting abused they're getting abused so literally like three four days before they went to Washington I called Brittany I was like do you still have space for me to go she's like yeah I was like I want to go didn't tell my ex husband the day I was going to leave I was like I'm going to Washington he's like but we didn't even talk about I said there's nothing for us to talk about this is a decision I'm making this is not a we decision this is a me decision and I went and um it was really hard to actually speak because before I broke my silence in front of the capitol I spoke to congress and that was tough it was in a closed door that's why I think when Nancy May I think she was the one crying when she walked out she was crying over the whole thing I think it was her and it was really tough I couldn't even finish my story I had to have Brittany finish my story for me because I was like literally like you know when it hurts so much that your heart and your throat hurts that's how painful it was and then when I you know the following day I broke my silence in front of the capitol you've talked about having certain records and files being released why is that so important to you why it hasn't been or why it has been released why why why is it so important that certain records or files need to be released like why has that been such a prominent thing for you and important for you I think everyone should be asking that because if we look at it like these last three million files that were dropped we have so many names in the files right like we have so many prominent people in there and we're just like oh my god the corruption is so heavy it's so real nobody is doing absolutely nothing about it right and then we go back and we go so if they're not doing nothing these three million files were I mean there was some pretty crazy allegations in there I don't know if you read them I mean well there's a lot of things that are going on in there I don't know if you read them I mean well there's a lot to go through I've only looked at some right um and did you see the one where like there there's an accusation of a girl um she went down on Trump and then she bit him and he slapped her there's numerous of allegations over president of Bill Gates um with also um um Elon Musk there's some pretty prominent names there and you know there's a lot of accusations about him and there's a lot of accusations about him and there's a lot of accusations about him and there's a lot of allegations and then they find this girl right this 13 girl a 13 year old girl at the time she ended up getting an abortion Trump that's what it says the allegation these are allegations Donald Trump made her get an abortion I think and like like not even in a hospital okay I think it was her uncle did it it was a crazy story they finally find this girl and now we don't know where this girl is like Congress supposedly found her and I'm like but where is she then they have found another uh Trump survivor that I met in the last time that we went I didn't know she was a Trump survivor and she said no I'm a Trump survivor and I was like oh my god like you know we we we went to Washington a month ago and I was like oh my god like why isn't she speaking why hasn't he said anything right and I'm like well makes sense first people didn't believe us right it was just Jeff it was just Jeffrey Epstein and he was still very you know you know out there but he wasn't so much out there people are not going to believe this girl you know so when we ask for the files to be dropped we're just wondering why aren't they dropping the files why are you dropping UFO files nobody's asking for them nobody cares about them we know I mean some people believe in the UFO some people don't it's not something that right now is you know affecting us like it's not like they're coming here and invading our you know our world like you know we don't we didn't ask for that you came into office saying that you were going to release Epstein files release them you know you have Todd Blanche going up there like there's nothing more to see now this is this is a mistake we're not you know being like so militant about it like we're not releasing them why there are more names in that files and then I go to myself and I go if it does get released I'm going to are we going to do something or are we just going to keep having Congress you know calling these people over to do you know a hearing to go on their oath guys all over the country people are doing stuff they're criminally investigating these people we have Norway I've been to Norway people are criminally investigating these people we are doing absolutely nothing here it is so frustrating to know that we are the United States of America we stand for justice and it is it is lacking here so hard that I sometimes wonder I'm like am I in South America because that South America I could see it but not here so it is important for us it is important for us to get all the names out there and a lot of the survivors because of the trauma they went through they cannot remember a lot of things because trauma is a real thing it's not something that is like okay yeah it's like no it just it happens like you know there's a lot like I'll give you a perfect example I didn't know that Jeffrey I've seen rape me one of the other girls had to tell me because when I first gave my statement to the FBI I was like no he just did this he sexually you know he abused me and I think it was like when I came back from Virginia Gufrey's memorial I was like oh my god like I called my friend I said babe I can't believe it Jeffrey like all these girls and my friend was quiet on the phone and she was like are you okay I'm like yeah I'm okay I'm like I'm just I'm really in shock like I did not know that Jeffrey was all these girls she's like Marina I need to tell you something and I like I don't know if you're ready for this but you know that Jeffrey used to put you in like like put us in a row and then he used to you and use you as a doll and say like this is what you need to do to be a good girl and I was like what he's like yeah he's like how could you not remember that and then we sat there and we spoke about a little bit I'm like oh my god you me multiple times how could I not remember that it's so it just it it that's what the body does to protect you know that's what the brain does to protect your your mental health it just blocks it off and there's nothing that you could do about it you know I I guess I'm just asking this in general so like were there ever anything with Jeffrey Epstein or anything like that where you would go over and it wasn't I don't know there was like nothing sexual like it was almost like a different context like all the stuff happened with with P Diddy and everyone's like oh you know the sexual stuff going on and then there's people out there were like oh well like I went to a Diddy party but it wasn't like that kind of Diddy party it was like a just everyone was there hanging out some press was there like was there ever something like that that you attended where it wasn't like all your other experiences or is pretty much everything in that world perverted and so this is another thing that I think I would bring a friend I had this one friend that he absolutely love right and like I always want to speak to her because we actually ended up being in bed with Ghislaine Maxwell and I only got to know that I was in bed with Ghislaine Maxwell when I saw her in the news because when he brought us to his room he was like I have a friend joining us now being you know 15 I think I was or 16 I can't remember I thought Ghislaine was like a girl like our age you know because and I and I'll tell you like a quick story my my daughter was 15 years old and she was like oh my god mom miss whatever is here and she told me this teacher was my age and when she introduced me to her I was like oh oh hey how are you you know and when I walked away I looked at my girlfriend and I was like babe she's like 50 years old but you know because we don't we just don't see it like that when you're young you just you know literally the teacher was like 50 I'm 37 I was like such a huge age difference you know because kids don't know the difference you know she's 12 going on 13 she sees like this teacher's kind of cool so she thinks she's my age so seeing Ghislaine I thought Ghislaine was like somewhat my age sometimes I you know I remembered like the the white sheets and I remember all that but I can't remember details I know that they both me and this other girl and I know this girl is so traumatized she will not get on the phone and talk about any of this so sometimes I'm like oh I'm so traumatized she will not get on the phone and talk about any of this so sometimes I I think that you know I I want to remember everything but then I i don't want to remember everything you know so and and as as for the parties that it goes like all of that jeffrey knew that the story of queen's girls they were not going to be good in a party like i said to you we grew up in the streets you know we we were going to the dollar store to get our lotions we weren't going into like victoria's secret you know we were going to like the cheapest store where we could find clothes you know we you know we didn't have it like we weren't using the money to go to the louis vuitton store we didn't even know what louis vuitton was at the time we didn't know what prada was at the time you know you were just trying to survive yeah we were going to easy pickings i don't even know if they had easy pickings out here like easy pickings is like so cheap you know it's like we'd get like five dollar outfits you know it's eight dollars at the time you could now you can't you know so he knew you know he knew that were you afraid that like powerful people were going to come after you by speaking out absolutely absolutely when i first spoke out i was staying in a hotel and i immediately got paranoid because my phone wasn't working and i had done something with abc with lindsey davis and it came out the same day or the next day i can't remember and i looked at my comments i'm like oh my god oh my god everybody hates me everybody's everybody's like oh you knew better not to go back oh you were 14 you should have known better like people were like so mean and i ended up calling the producer and i was like what's going on jim and jim is like marina listen maybe you should reach out to the other survivors like and talk to them maybe your therapist and i'm like no no no but like why are people acting like this like i was 14 at the time like why are people blaming this like 50 year old something man like why are they telling me i should have known better you know he goes listen just just talk to your survivor sisters he's like this this happens all the time he's like if if if it makes it any better he's like my wife looks really up to you i thought it was cute he was like you know he's like i just want to tell you she thinks you're really brave you know for coming out and i was like okay okay that makes me feel a little bit better but it really stuck with me i was like oh my god like people are attacking me you know and and i i don't understand what people think you know i feel like our our brains are not fully developed until i think like 25 if you look up just on google like a simple research like your brain is not fully developed until 25 what changes do you think need to be made so that this doesn't happen to other children grooming is is a big thing and i think that we need to be teaching and bringing awareness to as young as five six years old and i know that people don't want to talk about it but we talk to children about you know uh you know gays and you know uh racism and how it's not okay and it's okay to like what you want why are we talking to kids about you know older people that if they touch them inappropriately or if they talk to them inappropriately we don't talk to kids and we should be talking to kids as young as five years old because if you look at it kids are getting groomed and they're getting you know you know adults will say oh we're gonna play a little game i'm gonna touch you here and you know kids don't know that kids don't know i'm five six years old they think it's a game you know so we need to be teaching our children as young as five six years old as soon as they start understanding hey listen if somebody speaks you this way it's not the right way if somebody touches you here it's not okay and then we have the teens on snapchat you know just in coral spring we had a girl who went missing she's 15 years old her friends dropped her off and she went to go meet with this man which they didn't know and she was missing for three weeks they just found her in texas and i kid you not if you look at the comments section they're like good for her she should have known better good for her she went there oh she she probably just wants more oh she's just she's a runaway and and the cops of coral springs were saying she was a runaway she was not a runaway she ended up being you know groomed by this man over the internet so it really begins on the internet nobody goes like hey i have some candy for you come into my car this is not what human trafficking and abuse looks like yeah the only thing i can tell you is that you have candy in the car which is so interesting because yeah i mean you hear the stuff happening that happened with roblox and the children on roblox and which is still happening still happening you hear i mean that's even what happens i've heard so many stories so we started a bible study here the first year really the first few months i started living in la and we had people from everywhere mainly like social media influencers would come over that left social media and start and like went on to only fans and it kind of starts out as there is like oh you just post like cute pictures and like you know like you know like you know like you know like people and then it's like oh now take your shirt off and then before you know it like a lot of these girls are not only doing only fans but being paid to be escorts with older men and stuff like that and you're just like how like how does that even happen and really the the the sad thing is the influx like we i truly believe we weren't designed to have access to every human being on the planet and through phones we do and so that causes people to i hate to use this language but you have different options of people what do you like what you don't know you can reach out this person in this state or this other country and you can talk to them here and do this and you can even make an account without your name on it and you know and it's so sad and i've only heard a handful of stories just from people that we've interacted with at our old bible study from years ago and it's really sad really heavy and you're making an effort to kind of speak out for everyone everyone that's gone through any sort of abuse or grooming whether it be speaking up for other survivors of epstein or people that have survived new things right now or going through it yeah because you know you the perpetrator will only stop when you speak you know and i think that when we talk about these things we talk about how much the justice system has failed has failed us and they continue to do it it's disheartening it's dehumanizing you know and then we tell women and men hey speak about your abuse tell the tell the authorities and then we're like oh well we kind of can't trust them because they just look look at this girl oh it's just a runaway you know it's they they don't want to investigate they don't want to put the time and um we're almost normalizing a 15 year old that she can make her own decisions or a 14 year old making her own decisions like and that is insane i feel like my daughter if when she is 18 i'm not i'm gonna be guiding her through that just because she's 18 and just because you have the right to make your own choices does not mean you know that you're making the right choices i feel like a 21 year old does not make the right choices i feel like her parents need to be there and guide her i think that you know society thinks okay well she's 18 she knows what she's doing guys we have 50 year old women getting catfished on the internet their brains are fully developed so what we're going to do is blame this 50 this 50 40 40 year old woman no she is getting groomed by a man a man is lying to her making her you know take off her clothes or or how many women have you heard that are broke they've they sent you know they they exceed their limit on their credit card they pull out you know uh money you know from from the bank they pull out on investments they they do all sorts of things when they start meeting these men on the internet so what are we going to do blame a child no we need to bring awareness to all women all men it can happen to anybody at any age you're a mother now and you've mentioned your daughter a few times how has being a mother and seeing your daughter changed the way you view everything that's happened to you and how you parent and things like that yeah it's a little tough i gotta tell you because you know we want to put our kids in a bubble but it doesn't work that way you know and i think the internet is what really pisses me off the snapchat and the tiktok i feel like you know listen i i get it like oh you can't have tiktok or snapchat until you're 16 okay parents are not abiding by that law we need to make this more serious we need to make this an actual law like you will go to jail because you know these kids are creating accounts and it's i i gotta tell you it's what i see sometimes in the conversations with the boys and even the girls i'm like oh my god this is this is insane like these kids now are like sending like naked pictures of you know emojis you know um i think the internet part is really where it's it's really messing with this generation it's almost like um i i have to i have it on my phone and i control it but you know you go to chat gbt and they know how to figure out how to go around it chat gbt tiktok snapchat it's just not helping our generation you know and i think that we need to be more serious about making these you know laws about having social media it's almost like alcohol right like you can't drink until the age of 21 you know obviously some states are different um there's a reason for that right because with drinking alcohol comes responsibility right you can't just be 16 and drinking and you know thinking it's okay and i think it comes with the same think with internet, you know, with, with social media, I'm sorry. you need to be a certain age because it's a very dangerous it's it's it's something that they created and it's super dangerous it's exactly what you said now you have the option to you know get access to whoever you want through everything that you've been through have you turned to faith god spirituality anything in between over the years i know you've mentioned you grew up orthodox and have been to catholic church evangelical church and everything but has faith ever played a role in anything do you believe in a god what does that look like right now of course i believe in god you know listen i'm the type of person that you know growing up i said i was like god why me why me god like why are you doing this to me like what did i ever do wrong you know because i was just a child like i didn't do anything wrong and i feel like you know sometimes when you're like oh well this happened to me i feel like that's karma sometimes like it does what comes around goes around right so as a child i was just always asking like why me why me and today i'm like oh he gave me this so that i can change the narrative so i can turn something negative into positive he gave me this because i could handle it because when we go and we start to talk to people i talk to some of my friends i'm like whoa you went through this and when they hear my story they're like whoa you went through i'm like no you went through way worse than i did you always think somebody who goes through way worse but he gives you really what you can handle right so i believe that god is with me always and i'm like no you went through all the time okay i don't go to church all the i don't go to church at all i i probably went to church on easter i'll go to christmas you know um i believe he's with me all the time i don't believe i need to go to church to have god with me or to believe in him or to have faith in him i believe that when i had my seizure i was like thank god thank god he had he he allowed me to have a seizure and thank god he didn't take me away from this earth because i feel like he came and he was like stop playing around because if you continue you are not going to be living this wonderful life that you you know and i'm scared of dying that this is the irony behind it like i'm so scared of dying and i was like doing you know all this you know taking all these pills so i really believe that faith is so important hope is so important if you don't have any of that if you don't have loyalty right to yourself and kindness you know these are all things that i think god wants us to have you know and i feel like if you don't cause any harm to anybody you should be okay in life you said you're scared of dying what what scares you about death yeah i don't know why it's so weird and i'm going to tell you how that started it started in brazil i was really young and up till today it's it's it's a it's a little secret of mine i'm scared of the dark okay and it sounds so it's so embarrassing but i'm i like to talk about embarrassing things so i am gonna say what i'm embarrassed to say out loud i am scared of the dark i don't sleep in the dark guys i have to sleep with the tv on i don't know why and it has to be like a little bit of a sound i don't know why when i when my mom uh came to you know came to new york i my aunt didn't want me to sleep with her and i always slept with my mom in the same bed and my aunt didn't want that and i had to sleep by myself and i was like oh my god i'm i'm scared and then i was like well i'm scared of dying it just it just came out of nowhere and i just started being scared of dying like thinking about you know and i don't know why this is something like at night i can't control it like i'll think about like oh my god what if i have cancer oh my god what if this might like it's just like something that you know my mind is always running on that and i don't know why what do you think happens when we die you know i always i always wonder that too you know everybody's like well you know if you do good you go to heaven i'm like um i kind of feel like that we i i feel like we are reborn again i don't feel like i feel like our bodies die but our souls don't die right they're always they're always here like when we talk about virginia geoffrey like we're always like oh my god we feel her presence we feel her here you know so i feel like that we are reborn into a different body you know and that's why i was asking god why me why me i was like man i was probably like a really terrible person in my past life you know and maybe that's not what it is but there's just something that i believe do i truly believe that all the way no i still question myself about what really happens to us when we when we pass away yeah you know what do you think about jesus i can't say much about him i know that you know i i've never really sat down and and read a whole bible and understood the i've only can say what i've watched in movies and i don't think that's pretty accurate right and also being baptized orthodox it's so quick it's like hey listen you do this you do that your bus you do that you know that's that's all it is you you dunk in the water three times and you are baptized it's not like the catholic church like when i grew up with my grandmother like you have to you know like my cousin right now she is going for her second i i don't know what and i'm going from to brazil for it but there's there's like bible school there's you there's everything it's not just like you get dunked in the water and that's it you're baptized you you have to know the bible you have to know the story behind it so i think that um i i don't know much to say because i don't know much about jesus and i don't want to say anything bad about him or anything good that i don't know but i think he was i think he was what a carpenter right yeah he was a carpenter he's a carpenter and he always you know he was he he seemed like he was a very giving person and he was a very giving person and he was a very giving person and he believed in everybody and no matter if you were a bad person or if you were a good person he was still going to be there for you right and he i feel like he didn't he didn't want any um any foul intentions or wished anybody bad even though people betrayed him right there and he knew about that people were going to betray him and i think he still wasn't the type of person was like he still was able to keep his faith and he was able to keep his faith and he was able to carry that burden by himself and not blame other people for what they were doing wrong because he knew that that wasn't his job it's almost like what i feel now like sometimes i feel like when i'm in between things with you know uh just personal things and i'm like oh man like this really sucks you know like why is it that i'm such a fair person and i'm such a like loyal person why aren't other people like this like i'm so i'm so loyal and i'm so fair it just doesn't work like that like you have to play your part and you have to play your role in this life and how other people want to play their part that's up to them i became a christian when i was 17 i had awful depression and anxiety for years and i thought the only way that to get the pain to go away was to take my life and so when i was 17 i went to have my last meal at a waffle house and i've i've never done drugs or alcohol before i had a supernatural encounter with jesus he stopped me from taking my life and you know leading up to that moment a few months before i try i looked into other religions i tried different things i was a people pleaser i tried to find my identity in sports and it was like there wasn't enough self-help books that could help what was going on in my brain and in my heart and i remember thinking if we live in a broken world and i can't even fix my broken heart i could never work my way to perfection you know that idea of doing good things to get to heaven is involved in every other religion but something total opposite we believe that jesus is god as christians and so we believe that he lived a perfect sinless life and the same way that we deserve justice for doing wrong the justice was inflicted on him but he did no wrong so his death on the cross was like him taking my punishment putting hope and trust in the fact that what jesus did was perfect and enough and just to pay for all my wrongdoing hope in him that from 17 till now i'm only 22 has given me life purpose peace joy and now it's like oh is it gonna be all black when i die or is it gonna be you know for me i'm like no like i get to be with jesus not because of anything i can do but because of what he has done and that's heaven because he is he is light he is love he is everything in between you know the bible talks about the god of christianity being like a father if you were ever to look into christianity do you think that do you think through everything you've been through you would have a hard time looking at god as a father because of the things that you experienced or no i think that at one point when i you know everybody has everybody has right we all do and when i did start having sex with you know my boyfriends at the time when it was like a you know a time where like when i first met my my ex-husband when we started to have sex i was like why is this when i started to have sex with my ex-husband i was like oh my god i was like everything i'm doing is so sinful everything is like this is a sin because i grew up with my stepfather and all these other perpetrators doing things to me that i thought now that i finally can do it and i'm enjoying it it's a sinful thing i wouldn't have a hard time um accepting jesus as my father because i never had a father in my life right and so I feel like even when I think want to love a man right like I want to I want to be vulnerable it's so hard for me to be vulnerable it's so hard for me to fully give in and say okay well this is my life and I need to control everything it's so bad because when I'm not in control I don't feel good about it and my friend always tells me she's like Marina you need to stop you have a problem you have a problem where you feel like you need to control things and not everything needs to be controlled so it's something that I think I deal with like being vulnerable like showing to be vulnerable and I think that's why sometimes when I talk about my story and people are like oh my god you're so strong you're so this and I'm like because I don't want to be vulnerable I don't want to cry because I think it's a sign of weakness which is not I know it's not you but in my head it's like oh my god people are going to think I'm weak because I had to grow up my whole life showing this person like I'm I'm strong I can take care of myself I can take care of my mom I can do anything I can I can you know and my mom also was like you'll never be anything you'll just be a better version of me so it was like oh my god now I have to work three times as hard you know so I don't think I would have a problem with that yeah I remember thinking that I had to fix myself and there's this idea that you have to fix yourself before coming to God it's like oh I gotta clean myself before I approach God but it's actually the total opposite it's like Jesus loves the most broken version of myself because that's you know the night I went to Waffle House I was the most sinful lust-filled jealous prideful selfish version of myself but I was the most honest and that allowed Jesus to move in my life because I mean he himself says in the gospel of Matthew he says blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God and the reward for me being honest with God was that I was able to move in my life and I was able to move in my life and I was getting him and you know even when I look at the Bible like there were so many things I didn't understand like both like before I was a Christian I got exploited to pornography when I was in the fifth grade and so that led me to making a lot of mistakes and and having struggles with sexual sin and then I remember reading the Bible and knowing Jesus and waiting for marriage to have sex was like it wasn't a restrictive thing it was like a beautiful thing because it was me trusting that the way that God designed it was what was best for my life and not what Bryce thought and trusting God was so interesting and new because I was like I'm the Lord of my life like I know what's best for Bryce and I'm like that 17 year old Bryce knows what's best for Bryce's life that's so stupid in every aspect but and even this wrestle of like there's even times now that like trying to be a husband and I think I know what's best for me and my wife and I make a decision I'm like I didn't consider it and I'm like I'm not going to do it and I'm like I'm not going to do it and I'm like I'm not going to do it and I'm like I'm not going to do it and I'm like I'm not going to do it God and all of these things and everything in between and you know in in in these years of being a mom and you know running your non-profit and speaking up for survivors and everything in between I really hope and pray that man maybe Jesus can come into your life and be this beautiful thing and you can know him and experience him and he's so full of hope and love and everything in between and I experienced a lot of hypocrisy too I know you mentioned it earlier on about y'all drinking at church camp or whatever and the people were like I don't know what to do we're like okay I saw a lot of hypocrisy too but you know that's that's not the heart of God God's so much better and awesome and I pray that you get to experience that one day and well I think that we all here in this life in this world right now we need that you know I think that there's so much I don't want to say mean I think I want to say just people that don't that are not knowing the difference between right and wrong right and then that people want to get ahead without going through through the process of getting to that finish line and they just want to skip through it right and then they just do all these these terrible things that hurt them and hurt other people so I think that yes I I I sometimes you know like you said oh I don't want to be a victim of the devil I don't want to be a victim of the devil I don't want to be a victim of the devil I don't want to be a victim of the devil I don't want to be a victim of the devil I don't want to be a victim of the devil I don't want to be a victim of the devil I don't want to be a victim of the devil I don't want to be a victim of the devil I become jealous you know and then I'm like no no no this is not this is not good like I don't want to be like that you know if I don't like somebody and you know we all don't like somebody right I don't I would never want to wish bad upon them I I don't want to wish bad upon anybody you know but it's like oh but why don't I like this person and then I have to go back and go it's okay it's just something about them that I'm not okay with it doesn't mean that I I shouldn't like them let me get to know this person a little bit better and then I can say okay well this person doesn't have the best character but however I don't want to have friction so let's just be peaceful with one another you know so there are certain things that I feel like this is what God would want this is what Jesus would want you know so I kind of understand some of the things that are that may be in the Bible I just don't know the Bible so well but maybe one day I'll come to your Bible study deal that sounds good you gotta invite me though deal yeah I'll invite you I'll come that'd be epic I'll come before we actually close the episode can you tell everyone a little bit about your non-profit and what you're chasing now and everything that you're doing in that realm so what I want to do is I want to do a non-profit and I want to do it in Brazil and why why is that like people are like why do you want to go to Brazil it's and listen I may I may not even be able to change the culture in Brazil while I'm my daughter and I hope that that generation will have a totally different mindset right why do I why do I want to do it in Brazil if anybody looks up the trafficking in Brazil is insane I believe it the mothers sell their daughters to politicians you go in the slums you ever been to Brazil no no I told you earlier that I wanted to go so you know you have the Christ there you know yeah one of the seven wonders of the world and there's a lot of slums okay and when we say like not even the police is allowed to go to the slums it's a real thing you're not allowed to it's not anybody that can walk into a slum and they have their own world in there and they have their own laws in there and the women sometimes that live there will have like the same they'll have different fathers different husbands and they're all they're all a family there and there's nothing they can do about it and some of them don't want to get pregnant and some of them are being raped every day and they are continuously getting pregnant so there are women that I have recently come across they'll go there they will get condoms they'll get you know birth control pills and give it to the girls but now if the the the men find out that these women are doing that they will be killed and so will the girls be killed the trafficking the human trafficking the in Brazil and it's not only with women with men and with animals it's it's really insane so I do hope that I think I think by next year I want to start a non-profit and I want to start in I think the worst possible place it's called Manaus it's very close to the Amazon forest and it's where all the trafficking happens and it's uncontrolled and it's it's something that it's going to be very very hard but I want to really make that culture change over there and I want people to think of it like it's not okay for a 15 year old girl it's not okay for a 15 year old girl to be with a 40 50 year old man yeah it's not okay you know we need to change that and we need to change how the women also think about it and it's not okay for a 15 year old girl to be with a 40 50 year old man you know we need to change how the women also think about it and it's not okay for a 15 year old man yeah you know women think excuse me women think like oh okay well you know if I'm with like this guy then like I don't have to work and I don't have to do anything that's not how it's supposed to be you know you got to create your own life and then you want to partner up with somebody that also has created their life and then when you guys are together you put that two together and you can create something beautiful well I gotta ask this question before before we close here just came to my mind you know you talked about Epstein's mansion seeing pictures on the walls and in the in that waiting area and everything I just gotta ask like did was he ever involved in any demonic satanic stuff did you ever see anything like that like would he say he talked to the devil or like did did you just ever hear Jeffrey or see him do anything demonic I never seen him do it when those files dropped and we saw that I couldn't sleep for a long time and that's what one of the seven pages that I was telling you with the allegations when I saw that they were eating children and I'm I was really in shock I did not know any of that right and then you know I went into a full rabbit hole and I started to see things that really bothered me and when I spoke to the other survivors they have not encouraged me to do anything like that and I was like I don't know what to do with that and I was like I don't know what to do with that they did not know that I think there's only one survivor that is saying that she is aware of that and I think she was in the Zorro Ranch that was the one in New Mexico yeah and they just they just did some stuff publicly about that like about the bodies it was a whole movement but now they stopped it you see how it's not anywhere in the news nobody's talking about anymore see like it stopped nobody's talking about it they started they wanted to investigate it they wanted to like go investigate the the backfield or whatever it was like where they said they buried girls and they buried you know these babies and now what happened nobody even knows right it's just like off the radar right and um we did not know that but a lot of the girls say wow jeffrey was so charismatic he was so nice he was this he was that i i grew up in the street so i think there's a gift growing up in the street and i think some people can agree with me sometimes we can read people we can tell right away if they're a good person or if they're a bad person right and if they have some sort of satan kind of ways right right jeffrey always had a look he was nice to us obviously what he did was not nice to us but he was a nice person he wasn't you know he didn't do any of these things to us but he always had a look in his face where he looked like the devil and if you look at some of his interviews they had asked him a question about something about if he was the devil himself and as the way he answered it with the smirk on his face and the way he winked his eye it was almost like oh my god you are the devil you know so and then when you also see there's a video of him going like but he's like looking at his mouth in brazil they had a reporter a journalist look into it and that's from from that pimple or that that thing that he got on his lips that's from eating from eating human flesh that's why he was like on the camera and like worried about it that's from you like eating excessive human flesh oh my gosh yeah yeah your story is heavy you're doing hard work i don't i don't even have words to describe everything you've been through everything in between but i i admire you i respect you i think the world of you i would i would really love to pray for you before we close because you've been through a lot of heavy stuff and you're continuing to do some heavy work and i know it can get hard and i would just love to pray for you to close us if that's okay i would love that i would love that cool you also gotta teach me how to pray correctly is there a correct way to pray i don't think there is right there's you want to pray jesus right we ask jesus and and the bible would say we like to it says enter his courts with praise and thanksgiving so i always just like to thank god for who he is and thank him for everything he's done and then glorify him make our requests known to him so i'm we're gonna pray for you and talk for god to be with you i always try to make like things for me to be the last thing that i pray for just personally and then i always thank him and then we ended in prayer but just being honest there's no like formula or anything it's just yeah because sometimes i do talk to him and i'm like i wonder if i'm doing it the right way sometimes my prayers look like god i'm really upset right now yeah and i'm talking to him like a friend that's okay okay so i'm not that far off but i also am thankful i do thank him every day for waking up and being alive and you know having my health right amazing yeah yeah i would love for you to pray for me all right let's do it jesus thank you so much for today god thank you for marina and thank you for her life and thank you for sharing her story about everything she's been through so boldly so passionately with courage god we thank you for who you are we thank you for your word and we thank you for your death and resurrection on the cross or jesus would you just bless marina with safety protection and wisdom god discernment to know who to talk to and who to stay away from who to partner with and who not to god what doors to say yes to and what doors to say no to god we thank you for the work that you're doing in her life would you just continue to be with her would you continue to guide her or jesus would you encounter her and say yes to her and what doors to say no to god we thank you for the work that you're doing in her life would you continue to be with her or jesus would you continue to be with her and more christians her way to show your love to her and god we just thank you for who you are we thank you for this day in jesus name amen amen