Speaker 1Amy, welcome to the Illumination Podcast. Why, thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. I am so excited to talk to you today. We're really going to focus on how academic leaders can create this really agile workforce-aligned learning ecosystem because we're in a time where those workforce-aligned programs are so critical and really the idea of serving learners for life. And now, I want to draw a big picture with you first and ask, when you think about the future of higher ed, big question, what does an agile workforce-aligned learning ecosystem look like in your eyes?
Speaker 2Great question, Shauna. Thank you again for having me. You're going to find that I might push back on things. And one of the things I might gently push back on is the word agile because I think it's doing a lot of work here. In higher education, when we say we need to be more agile, we often immediately translate. We translate that into faster. How do we improve a program faster? How do we launch a certificate faster? Speed matters, but I don't think speed is the same thing as agility. And to me, agility is the ability to see what's changing, understand what it means, respond appropriately, and then learn from what happened. And the response isn't always new degrees. Sometimes it's the degree. Sometimes it's a short credential. Sometimes three courses in an existing program need to change. Sometimes the learner already has the learning, and our job is to recognize it. And sometimes an employer can provide part of the learning, and we can connect it to something larger. And I think that's where the idea of the ecosystem gets really interesting. So the example I would give is I'm looking through our potential list of programs to close, which every university should be doing on a fairly frequent basis. And there's a couple of programs in there I think probably don't deserve to be programs. The earnings outcomes don't align at the full baccalaureate degree level, but I could pull out a couple of those courses. Those would be fantastic workforce credentials or certificates that could stand on their own. They would be able to help employers feel confident in their employees without having the burden of the huge tuition fees. Yeah. Yeah. Tuition price. So I use that as an example of how I might be able to sort of rethink our programs to be more agile without actually doing more development or changing anything other than a subtraction rather than an addition. Absolutely. At UMDC, we serve working adults and military-affiliated learners whose lives make the limitation of traditional and the traditional model particularly visible. Mm-hmm. They don't necessarily learn in one institution, in one format, during one four-year period even. And though they're learning through work, military service certifications, prior institutions, and formal education, they come with a complete portfolio already. And oftentimes our job is to act like filling in the holes in Swiss cheese. These people are whole for the most part, but they have some gaps that they need our help with. And so I think the institution of the future does not deliver. It doesn't just deliver education. It orchestrates the learning. It helps someone understand what they already know, what they need next, how to acquire it, how to demonstrate it, how to credential it, and when, where they can go from the air, not just, okay, you have a piece of paper, what's next?
Speaker 1Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And at the beginning of your response there, you mentioned faster, you know, kind of being tossed in. And I'm like, let me just toss my second question completely out the window. Okay. I'm going to adapt the word faster because it is in that next question. But in this, you know, the speed of which the world is moving and the workforce is moving and all that is pretty quick than the traditional structure of higher ed, I would say. Maybe depending on where you sit at the institution. But how can academic leaders respond more proactively to changing workforce needs without compromising any of that academic quality?
Speaker 2Yeah. I think, again, there's a mythology in higher ed. That if something takes a long time, it must be rigorous.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I don't know that that's true. Some rigor takes time. But sometimes it's unclear decision-making, duplicated approvals, handoffs, legacy processes, and exceptions that we've accumulated over the past 20 years. So I think there's a couple different parts to it. The first is, what are the parts of the process that actually protect academic quality? Mm-hmm. I think we do spend a lot of time. I'm thinking, how do we protect rigor? And that's really important because nobody wants a watered-down credential. That's not the goal of this, right? The goal of this is to have highly trained, highly skilled students who can graduate into workforces where they're able to take giant leaps. Part of it is making sure we're getting the right signals from our workforce employers. And we do that through advisory boards. We do that through digital tools. We do that through conversations. With employers, sometimes we do it by talking to our alumni who are also employers.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2That gives us a really great base to know how close did our preparation help them. So I think it's a couple of things internally around systems, around recognition. So how do we recognize more experiences that students have that we may not have credentialed before? I think about that for our military learners who have such phenomenal, real-world, durable skills that don't always translate into course titles, but we know at a skill level there's a lot of correlation there. So part of it is really just us understanding the skills mapping, where the experience comes from, and where we can continue to refresh our academic programs to make sure they're still aligned and relevant. Not necessarily that we need to sort of throw away the academic and do workforce training. That would not be. The right step. It's flexibility and a continuous review. So we want to keep looking to make sure that we're not just looking at the hot programs or the hot in-demand fields. And then we can generate content really quickly, but we shouldn't be doing it just to bulk out a class or a program. It should really be driving the learning and making sure the students feel. Like they're fully aligned. So when we go back to that speed versus rigor. Yeah, there's a, there's the processes of higher education that we often forget about the curriculum committees, the, the program review cycles, the processing of prior transfer credit. And then there's under the hood curriculum, the actual courses and programs, those both need to be in full alignment to be really workforce enabled and not as a bolt on.
Speaker 1So we want to keep that in mind. Absolutely. And I want to pull on one of these, you know, an underlying theme I'm getting from our conversation here is that it is so critical. For you and your position, as I'm sure it is for other academic leaders of reviewing your programs, making sure that they are not just the hot ones. And if they're sitting there stale on the shelf, you know, like get rid of them, ax them and just kind of have that. Rigorous process, I guess, just to throw in that rigor again, but really. Making sure you're evaluating the programs that sit there. So that's one side of it, of the programs, the program evaluation. And on the other side of it, with the military students, I was just thinking of the, the correlation between that real world experience and the programming that they'll then experience. So how should institutions rethink that relationship between curriculum and the career outcomes to make that value of higher ed really clear to learners, especially, you know, we're in a time. Where learners are constantly questioning the ROI of higher ed. Right.
Speaker 2And it's amazing to me because I can think of nothing, no better investment in your future career than the ability to move forward with a really solid base of critical thinking, especially, and I'm using critical thinking, pull that one out just very quickly. But I think, especially in the age of AI, the more human skills we build into our curriculum, the better off our students will be. So I would just start with that. That is the reconciliation of the future of work will require on humans being really good at human things. So I want to just, I would flag that first, but I think we also sometimes used to believe that, that we don't actually have to explain what students are getting out of the curriculum. And we need to be far more transparent in that, right? This is not a don't look under the hood, just trust the, trust the degree. Because we're well past that people read all of the labels now, right? And so we want to make sure that our degrees have sort of the, the career outcomes in the curriculum have a real good tension, but I'm going to give you a very quick example, which is a faculty member. I met one time at a conference. He was an art history professor. He was at a community college and he told me that most of his students were nurses and police officers who were required to take the art history class as part of their gen ed. And on the first day he would, he would ask them and they were probably all very reluctant to be there if we have to be honest, right? Like if I'm a police officer sitting in art history class, class does not feel like a good use of my time my money feels very very I mean unless you're a very unique police officer or nurse it's not usually the overlap we would see right yeah on the first day of class he'd ask his students would you be better at your job if you were 10 percent more observant like crickets everyone in the the room was like of course of course I would be so much better at my job if I was 10 percent more observant and then you tell them that's all we're going to do here we're just going to use art to help you make the world more observable and he then sort of told me that afterwards he always had a standing line to get into his class because it was something that people could instantly grasp onto they were going to learn about art history they were going to talk about details brushstrokes time period lighting all of the things that go with the competencies of art history but the act of doing that made them more uh made them more observant which in their own right they were going to be more observant and they were going to be more observant in their line of work was crucial and I think we could probably come back to any of what I would consider almost the gen ed competencies and think through them through a lens of workforce relevancy that has nothing to do with the domain they're in but still gives them both the skills the workforce adorable skills the observations the networking the critical thinking the communication all the things we know are uniquely human skills that we're going to need in an AI world and imagine that parent is now that that student is the the police officer is now a parent and they have a child who's interested in art you imagine the sort of the life benefit of being able to go with them to an art museum and say look at this picture we can tell you I can tell you about the painting very strange little niche but it helps illustrate that much of the core curriculum that we continue to think is valuable is valuable beyond just the domain itself it's valuable in how we how we think about working and so when we think about that alignment between workforce outcomes and student outcomes I really don't think that there's a huge divide there I think we can help put all of those into different frames where you can see the benefit in both the curriculum and the workforce skill and so part of it is it's just making sure you've got the right team who can who can speak both languages and who can recognize where those things will come together
Speaker 1it really feels like that articulation piece is so critical to know who your audience is that you're speaking to in the moment because that professor you know giving the question of would you be 10 better is just framing it in the right lens to then open up their mind to be like oh actually there there is a connection there which has this huge ripple effect and I think can be
Speaker 2applied in so many other cases yeah I do think and I'm going to come back to the AI for just a moment which is that one of the things the signals I'm seeing is the value of human judgment and networking as crucial skills in an AI world yeah and this works in the idea that sort of AI is going to know what it has consumed it is not going to know the world beyond what it's already learned exactly we bring all of those other experiences and so our ability to have a conversation with our colleague or have a conversation with another human and have that human realize that we've done our research and we understand what we're talking about we can add context beyond what the AI is telling us gives us the credibility to be able to continue to to put faith in our students to say yeah I read what I read what Claude or ChatGPT had to respond on this summary they missed this thing that you can only know from living in the real world and so when I'm going to tell you about my product or if I'm in a sales role or if I'm going to tell you about project management I'm going to tell you that you may be you know we're going to have a big event and there's a bridge closing AI is not going to know that so the ability for humans to be really clear around their communication their knowledge their research in partnership continues to affirm the humanness that we're going to need is my bet the humanness we're going to need as we continue on into a sort of a more AI filled world
Speaker 1well and I love what you just highlighted there because I know there is a lot of fear that comes around with the AI and I think that's a really good point and I think that's a really good point about the AI world and you're really just re you know reaffirming the importance of being human and all the components that come in with that so I think that's kind of gives some reassurance so I like that point so thank you for that now I really want to I want to shift gears for a second and kind of go back to the idea of that program evaluation because within the program there are of course internal external stakeholders to that and so when we're talking about the program offerings it's you know key to get those employer insights it's key to look at the data that's around you even though we can oftentimes get swarmed and all the data that's around us but what role should employers and workforce data really play in how institutions are developing and evolving their academic offerings
Speaker 2we need to take the signals right our job as academics is to figure out the signals from the noise and we need to take the signals from the noise and we need to take the signals from the workplace one of the challenges I do think is is that in a and I'm going to call it a wild west period of new technology expansion those things that we need or that the workplace needs may be really short term and they may not be durable for a three to five year program right so one of the things I'm trying to keep my eye on is when we're doing our program reviews where do we lean into of those let's call them skills and competencies into the curriculum versus where do we build whole programs around it the example I will use is we saw a massive rush over the last 15 years maybe 10 years to put data science first we stood up data science as a program as opposed to something else then we turned it into data analyst roles and then we saw the data structures go into almost every curriculum so if you're a biomedicine you're going to have to go into almost every curriculum major you get a biostats if you're a healthcare you get in health informatics I think we are probably going to see some flattening of that that we are able to you know because of the way that the technology is advanced the way that we have different data scientists in our teams the way we're using dashboards and and engines to be able to produce that that a lot of that competency may have just been a brief spread of the of the curriculum that will like probably tighten back when especially if you're thinking about um if you're in a place that has to build a lot of programs building 17 different courses that all have some level of data science in each of those means those are 17 different courses that you need to maintain and you need to be able to keep refreshed in the right data set even after maybe the tools have changed the reporting has changed how we ask questions has changed and so I do think that there are elements of modularity that we need to be able to keep refreshed in the right data set even after maybe the tools have changed and so I do think that there are elements of modularity that we need to be able to keep refreshed in the right data set even after maybe the tools have changed and so I do think that there are elements of modularity that we can start to of modularity that we can start to of modularity that we can start to poke if we see these really sure I'm gonna say poke if we see these really sure I'm gonna say poke if we see these really sure I'm gonna say like uh competencies that come out of nowhere like uh competencies that come out of nowhere like uh competencies that come out of nowhere maybe to meet the current workforce demands maybe to meet the current workforce demands maybe to meet the current workforce demands we need to be a little bit more agile about we need to be a little bit more agile about we need to be a little bit more agile about thinking about them as thinking about them as thinking about them as modules that we can drop in modules that we can drop in modules that we can drop in before we put forth the plans to build before we put forth the plans to build before we put forth the plans to build whole curriculums out of them because whole curriculums out of them because whole curriculums out of them because they may not be endurable three years they may not be endurable three years they may not be endurable three years from now they can be a completely from now they can be a completely from now they can be a completely outdated technology five years from now outdated technology five years from now outdated technology five years from now um and I think a web design has been one um and I think a web design has been one um and I think a web design has been one area where we have learned that the area where we have learned that the area where we have learned that the fastest fastest fastest um and I you know I'm a little bit older um and I you know I'm a little bit older um and I you know I'm a little bit older than probably most of your listeners but than probably most of your listeners but than probably most of your listeners but in the early days of web we built into in the early days of web we built into in the early days of web we built into course programs that you would learn course programs that you would learn course programs that you would learn flash flash flash and then flash went away people probably and then flash went away people probably and then flash went away people probably don't even know what flash development don't even know what flash development don't even know what flash development was but it was a big deal and everyone was but it was a big deal and everyone was but it was a big deal and everyone had to learn it and it went away and so had to learn it and it went away and so had to learn it and it went away and so how do we how do we make the curriculums how do we how do we make the curriculums how do we how do we make the curriculums um uh flexible enough so that when the um uh flexible enough so that when the um uh flexible enough so that when the tool sets change tool sets change tool sets change and the industry changes we're able to and the industry changes we're able to and the industry changes we're able to pivot without having to do pivot without having to do pivot without having to do huge course program course and program huge course program course and program huge course program course and program overhauls but we're able to overhauls but we're able to overhauls but we're able to to tweak the content just a little bit to tweak the content just a little bit to tweak the content just a little bit because we know the outcomes and the because we know the outcomes and the because we know the outcomes and the skills we're trying to get students to skills we're trying to get students to skills we're trying to get students to are far more endurable are far more endurable
Speaker 1are far more endurable and i want to expand on this idea of and i want to expand on this idea of and i want to expand on this idea of really being flexible because that is a really being flexible because that is a really being flexible because that is a prime example of where prime example of where prime example of where you need to be flexible because you need to be flexible because you need to be flexible because something that is coming your way and something that is coming your way and something that is coming your way and that's hot in this moment that's hot in this moment that's hot in this moment is going to be irrelevant one two five is going to be irrelevant one two five is going to be irrelevant one two five years maybe years maybe years maybe so in that idea and looking ahead what so in that idea and looking ahead what so in that idea and looking ahead what needs to change for institutions to needs to change for institutions to needs to change for institutions to truly serve learners throughout their truly serve learners throughout their truly serve learners throughout their careers rather than just serving them at careers rather than just serving them at careers rather than just serving them at one point in time and one point in time and one point in time and you know see you later yeah that is you know see you later yeah that is
Speaker 2you know see you later yeah that is such a such a fabulous question i think such a such a fabulous question i think such a such a fabulous question i think about that a lot because i think about that a lot because i think about that a lot because i think there's two parts to it the first is there's two parts to it the first is there's two parts to it the first is yes we want to be able to continue to yes we want to be able to continue to yes we want to be able to continue to keep them in our family keep them in our family keep them in our family or if not our family the family of or if not our family the family of or if not our family the family of higher education higher education higher education right because we know that higher right because we know that higher right because we know that higher education has lots of values beyond just education has lots of values beyond just education has lots of values beyond just the the the employment and the employment is employment and the employment is employment and the employment is other values to society other values to society other values to society right like we are focal points of right like we are focal points of right like we are focal points of communities we are employers ourselves communities we are employers ourselves communities we are employers ourselves um we frequently have community um we frequently have community um we frequently have community connections and engagements that connections and engagements that connections and engagements that benefit And it does become an ecosystem. And so we know when we have community service partners, that information comes back to us. And it's another board, for example, to help us think about what are the community needs? How do we pay attention to that? So I say that to say our ecosystem is not just our graduates. It includes our graduates. It includes our workforce. It includes our friends and neighbors in the community. But I think when I think about going in and out, I would want to tap our alumni in two different ways. I would love to be able to welcome them back. Do they need to be a retooling credential, right? Something that sits on top of a degree maybe they got 15 years ago. And now sort of how people do project management looks different. And so they want to come back and get retooled. Have they moved into a career that didn't exist when they were in college, right? I'm on my fourth career, maybe three of which didn't exist when I graduated from college. I've had to go back and get retrained. Oddly enough, my parents, I was cleaning up my parents' house and I found a flyer from my grandfather's company newsletter from 19, let's call it 1935. It was a long time ago. And he was in the birth of the modernization of electricity. And there were so many things that felt parallel to our world today with the disruption of the economy. So it went from a world where electric wires went up. And his first job was selling electric appliances door to door, because that was the only way you could get light bulbs and toasters and irons, right? And as the company grew, as the company grew, it was a world where you could get light bulbs and toasters and irons, right? And as electricity became more mainstream and operationalized, this guy went back into higher ed. He got another certificate. He went back into higher ed and he got a degree in human resources. Really, between the period of 1932 and 1945, he was jumping back in and out as he was retrained. And stayed there and really rode the wave of sort of the rise of the middle management. I share all of this to sort of show in the lifetime of two human beings, really in sort of more recent memory, we have examples of people reentering the workforce. It's just a little out of our view because it's a little bit further back. But as new industries scale, like electricity or like AI, there is going to be a period of what I call the Wild West, where people are having to jump in, they're having to get retrained. They're having to learn new tools. Those are not forever skills. They are to get us through the next phase and the next branch, but they're never going to be the things that will keep us lively in our career until the end of time. And so when I think about how we are designing at UMGC higher ed really to be that continuous place where people can dip in and out of, we want to dip in and out at a level of personalization. We want to be able to know what those people have been studying. We want to be able to know what their work has been like, what skills they currently have that maybe we could credential, right? Those would be fabulous things. And to be able to build on that and then match that with the next learning opportunity. So we aren't asking people to sort of duck in and out of the workforce from a, okay, now take four years off, come back, go back. And so that there's a little bit more seamlessness to it and it becomes part of people's lives, or at least I think that's the holy grail for a lot of higher ed leaders. is that our relevance will be so essential that people are like, I know them. I can trust them. I can come back to them. I can afford it. I know what, how it fits in with my life. And I know that the return on that investment is going to be worth it. So I really do think about higher ed not being four years or graduate programs, but as a lifelong redeploying opportunity. I don't want to, I don't love the word lifelong learning. I do think it has a different context than what we mean here. But I do think the idea of lifelong skill development can really add value to people's career and paychecks over the lifetime.
Speaker 1Amazing. I'm just going to leave it there because that was so powerful. But before I let you go, before we go into our little bonus question, is there anything else that you would like to add in terms of the work you're doing, what you're seeing in higher ed, advice you have or anything that I missed that you want to talk about?
Speaker 2I think it's a, I want to send out a lot of love and sort of support to all of my colleagues in higher ed right now. I look at what happened to journalism over the last 15 years and I feel like there are moments where higher ed really needs to sort of put a stake in the ground and say, our benefit exceeds beyond what you see as price tags for so many, for so many reasons. There's value that we continue to add to society. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in.
Speaker 1There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in.
Speaker 2There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. There's value that we continue to add to society and that an uneducated society is probably not what we want to live in. And so her book, Playing Big, I really, I give it out, I give it out like candy because I think it is the, I'm going to call it the human MBA versus the business MBA. It will help you become really the boss of yourself and know where to put your effort and where putting that effort just will never get a return on your investment and help you feel more confident.
Speaker 1Amazing. I'm like sitting here starstruck. I'm like, those are fantastic recommendations. I love the variety in them and I love the conversation. So Amy, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2My pleasure, Shana. This was a delight. Thanks for tapping in.
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