Amy Spitalnick on Jewish Safety, Democracy, and the Work of JCPA

From Syria's XM, this is Common Faith. Where a rabbi and a journalist explore the big questions of our day. Through the lens of Jewish tradition and lived experience. We're here to be a force for good. Common Faith. Join rabbi, Elliott Cosgrove, and Emmy Award-winning journalist, John Frankel, for conversations that run deep. Because in a world that can feel divided, sometimes the most important thing we share is Common Faith. Welcome to Common Faith on Syria's XM. This is rabbi, Elliott Cosgrove, and I'm John Frankel. And it is great to have you here. We are on Channel 111 on Syria's XM, Sundays at 9 a.m. Eastern time, 6 a.m. Pacific time, or wherever you get your podcast. And it's never too early or too late to leave us a nice comment on the podcast or send us an email nice or otherwise. John, you know, there's an expression, I'm good, but there's an expression. It's hard to be a Jew. It's a swear Susaina Yid. And I feel that. And our guest today, Amy Spitalnick, we're going to talk about that. Because I feel like what it means to be a Jew, to think about our people, to put the concerns of our people at the forefront, but we also read in the Torah again and again and again, that because we're Jews, we have to be thoughtful and compassionate and empathetic to the stranger in our miss, right? The Torah says, you are once a stranger. Therefore, you should know the heart of a stranger. So on the one hand, we have this loyalty to our people. And on the other hand, I feel we, I know we also have this empathy to the other, right? We were once strangers. And I think we're living in a time. I think we're living in a time where we are being asked to choose between one or the other. And especially in the public square that Jews are being told, you either got to be all in on the Jewish people, or you got to be all in on the universal values, but you can't do both at the same time. Now, I feel this as a rabbi. You know, I read the news. I, we know what's going on in Minneapolis with immigrants and with, you know, just the rule of law. We also know what's going on here in New York. You know, it's a national show when we're concerned about the safety and security of the Jewish people. Never mind the state of Israel. Like, I feel we're being, do you feel that you're being asked to choose between one or the other? Or am I, am I, as they say, making a, a tempest and a teapot? No, I, I don't know if I, I've seen myself have to make that choice. I mean, I, I can't say that I've wanted to, to be unkind to somebody because I haven't been surprisingly. And I hope this continues, but I know this isn't the case for everyone, but I have not been confronted by direct overt anti-Semitism since October 7th. And so I, I haven't been faced with that choice, but what I am and I'm not avoiding the question what I'm curious is how you would counsel somebody on that. If somebody says rabbi, I'm, you know, I got new neighbors, they just moved in and I don't know they did something to offend me. And they said something that, you know, that I, I perceive to be anti-Semitic. Does that mean I still welcome them? Do I bring brownies next door? Right, I think you still throw a flag on the field on anti-Semitism. I think you still identify with the sufferings of the other. But I think that the crosshairs of our identity politics at this moment, right, that those people who are, right, if, if, you know, we have to support. Political candidates or figures or here in New York, the most progressive figures in city politics, the new mayor, right? You know, lots of things, free buses, affordable housing, all of the, you know, good, progressive values that he ran on. And he also ran Mamdani on a platform, which undercut the claim of the Jewish people to the people in the state of Israel. He ran on a platform that sort of blurred the line between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. And so you kind of had to say, well, if you're a lifelong New York liberal Democrat, what is my primary loyalty? Is my primary loyalty the condition of the people in the state of Israel or is my primary loyalty to a host of sort of good old fashioned New York progressive liberal values? Well, that's what I, that's what I mean when I say we're sort of in the crosshairs. Okay, but what if it, what it's bring it even closer to home, let's say, and I don't know, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at, which is that suppose you don't want to use up some of your political capital, your Jewish, you live in Minneapolis, you are bothered by what's going on there. But do you leverage whatever clout or influence you might have or the, the freedom to protest? Do you use that in this instance, right, to protect your neighbor, if that's the way you feel? Or do you hold that for you think that, wait a minute, there's so many issues that relate to Judaism and more personally to me, I can't be out there on the streets marching right now or protesting. I need to, I need to hold that right or you might be marching on the streets with people wearing, you know, free Palestine t shirts and right when, you know, George Floyd and Ferguson and, you know, other moments where, you know, Jews were inclined by dint of our own historic experience to come out strong and identify. But with, you know, those marginalized those subject to abuse those subject, you know, the movements with whom we would have a natural affinity as minorities and majority culture, but yet the nature of identity politics were such that the black lives movement, you know, found common cause with those same forces that position. Positioned Israel and, and Jews as colonialists interlopers, right, this is how intersectionality works, and so I might, I, Elliott Cosgrove might want to go protest, whether that's in Minneapolis, whether that's down at Union Square, whatever that might be, but I, Elliott Cosgrove i'm not comfortable standing there next to someone wearing a free Palestine t shirt. In another, I don't know if this is staying on topic or, or look, we're all this is all a warm up for Amy, I understand. But so I wonder what Amy in some ways aren't you asking of taking a step further back aren't you asking the question of. Are you a one issue voter in essence, you know, if you're somebody that lives in the United States and you're making Israel your priority when you go to the, to the ballot box. Isn't that isn't that similar in what you're in what you're posing here, which is is what do I prioritize all right let me be an annoying rabbi john are you a one issue voter. I am not a one issue voter nor do I think anybody should be a one issue voter on anything I don't as passionate as you are be it abortion be it immigration be it nuclear arms be it health care. I think that to vote on one issue as much as your you may be able to wait that. But I think that it gun control you know we could go on and on and on I don't think being a one issue voter is helpful. Do you think that there are things that disqualify people from receiving a vote so like the negative of the one issue voter like if someone was voting if someone if you agreed with someone for 98% of their positions but they were an election denier or they were. I got it is something a deal breaker is something to feel great if they didn't if they didn't recognize the state of it the right of the state of Israel to exist. Would you say look I agree on a billion things but but you know what this here her they're out. Yeah I get your question and I think that's a fair question and I think I would probably then way everything against that and and it depends I'm obviously what we're talking about here if somebody said I deny Israel's right to exist probably everything else takes a back seat to that. But again I'd want to I'd probably want to sit there if I actually wrote down one of those pros and cons lists and sit there and say okay what how much weight and importance am I giving to each one of these things. But you raise a fair point but again I would always like somebody to sort of take a holistic approach to anyone person who's running I mean there are certain people that given where we are in our country I may not disagree I may not agree with them on many of their political views and policies. But I might find them to be a solid citizen and believe in a lot of the qualities that they carry and their virtues and so I might sit there and say okay I don't agree with you one abortion I don't agree with you on gun control but I think you're a decent human being. Look that's something I want to ask Amy when we have her like is any of this new right isn't the act of voting and getting involved in politics. The very nature of it is is that you agree with people on some things you don't agree with them on the other things you got to work with common cause on that which you're aligned you have to hold accountable on that right. That's you know there's never an election where you agree with every of this and of every candidate so the question is you know now I'm sort of deconstructing my own question is our moment to actually knew or is this just the way politics always is it feels like it's super charged post October 7th it feels like for Jews it's super charged. No question to the mattresses or whatever the expression is no question but I want to share with you can I share with you one experience that I recently had since you spoke so eloquently about the mom dummy thing and and obviously that's something that's going to come up with Amy. Just a short while ago a week a half ago or a week ago I was in I was in Paris and I took my daughter to dinner and we went to an Italian restaurant yes in Paris we went to an Italian restaurant one that I will talk about that another time. I know that's a whole problem with my gourmet but no we had been to a couple French places but this is one that I'd been to 30 years ago and it was very good so we go in and at first the places empty but for two tables and the guy says yeah I can put you here but you know every other tables reserved and I can't believe that but sure enough I do see reserve blackboards and within 10 minutes. The place is filled and these four gentlemen sit down next to us right next to us and I think to myself and I say to my daughter I said I think these guys. I think these guys are Jewish anyway within a minute. The guy sitting next to me starts up a conversation but his English isn't very good and I speak next to no French but he starts to talk and he says where you're from and I say oh we live in New York he goes oh I lived in New York I worked in a restaurant there a bunch of years ago he's like so what do you make of this you know and again his English wasn't very good but I could tell he was like you know there's new mayor what do you think and that it but it wasn't clear you know my car. You know my cards weren't on the table I don't know if he knew that I was Jewish right so he's going around and he's trying to be. Political if you will and discrete but it's like you know what do you think and I finally said yes it well you know I'm Jewish he says ah me too he goes we're all Jewish and he says and everybody in this restaurant is Jewish. I was like I turned around and it felt like I was at Nikolas or Elias or any one of those Italian places because you looked around and every person that walked in started to kiss everybody at every table that they saw and it was it was a very funny scene and it was a nice moment with this guy and he's like this mayor he's not good for us. You just having to pick that restaurant all right I got a story like that to recently all right we're going to be right back we got the world's expert on. You know the Jewish public sphere Amy Spitalnik a dear friend with us here on serious XM you're listening to common faith and we'll be right back. Welcome back to common faith on serious XM where we question talk and laugh our way through life's big topics. From Jewish tradition to everyday life here are your hosts Rabbi Elliott Cosgrove and Emmy award winning journalist John Frankel. Welcome back to common faith I'm Elliott Cosgrove and I'm John Frankel and John do you have a hero because we're about to speak to a hero of mine. Any any hero of yours you want to share with. In the professional world there are very few voices right if I had trading cards and have them signed I would want the rookie card the all star card of Amy Spitalnik. Amy is the person talking about the Jewish condition in the public square. She is a CEO of something called the Jewish Council for public affairs which for 80 years since its founding is a national convener of Jewish coalitions working to build a just an inclusive democracy bringing together national and local partners. We're going to talk about New York we're also going to talk about national issues addressing the issues that most deeply affect our community and advance our most essential values. She's the CEO she previously was the executive director of integrity first for America groundbreaking lawsuit against neo Nazis and white supremacists and serves on the boards of basically every major organization graduated from Tufts. Amy my hero how are you. That is way too kind of an introduction to live up to Amy let me start with a softball have you ever served an Israeli double agent. I have not. I'm glad I just wanted to get it out. Thank you for asking. So softball question to begin with but it raises right and and we're recording this so the news cycle might have gone one or two you know cycles since then but that whole incident with like the former vice president's vetting team asking the would be a VP candidate Josh Shapiro that kind of goes to the core of it. It raises this question of as Jews are we loyal to the democracy in which we live the United States of America or are we loyal to a peoplehood a statehood of Israel and the the specter of dual loyalty and otherwise. And so I think that's sort of why it set off this sort of cycle of media flurry and I'm just wondering as as the CEO of the national organization dedicated to the concerns of the Jewish people and democracy here in this country. Can we have it both can we do both walk into gum democracy and Jewish safety and security all at the same time softball question. We have no choice but to do both not because these two priorities are at odds with each other but actually because these two priorities are one of this in the same we as Jews and I think about my own family right my grandparents survived the Holocaust they came here afterwards as refugees my grandparents were New York City public school teachers. And now I have spent my career in government and public service working on issues of both fighting hate and protecting democracy that all of that advancement was made possible because of American democracy. And that's true for so many Jewish American families none of us would be where we were if it weren't for the core tenets and values of American democracy that have protected us and given us all probably the safest place we've ever had in in our long history so there's no such thing as Jewish safety without true democracy but we also know that there's no true democracy without Jewish safety when Jews are unfairly targeted are held to double standards in the way that you just described. It seems to have happened here with the governor of Pennsylvania with Josh Shapiro when we are unsafe in any way shape or form we don't have a truly inclusive democracy and so to his anti-Semitism as not just this form of hate but really this insidious pernicious conspiracy theory rooted in tropes and lies around Jewish control and power uses a tool to further undermine democracy to so division and distrust and I'm sure will impact that all. And we're in this feedback loop where threats to the Jewish community were rising normalized anti-Semitism are used to undermine democracy and as democracy and its norms are eroded it only creates conditions in which anti-Semitism further flourishes so we have no choice but to walk into gum at the same time to fight unequivocally for Jewish safety and against anti-Semitism in all of its forms and to do so in a way that recognizes our safety. And our democracy are inextricably linked with one another. Why does it feel like it's harder now than it was before? Right I mean obviously like since you know Teddy Roosevelt there have been accusations of you know probably before that of dual loyalties and you know otherwise but it just feels like maybe it's a post October 7th thing and john and I were schmoozing about this before the break that we are all sort of wired right now to worry about the rise of anti-Semitism. About the rise of anti-Semitism the existential safety of Israel where you know that October 7th should never happen again thank God the hostages save one of either returned or been repatriated back to Israel. And does that mean that you vote for someone who you know I don't know is an election denier or that you are just out of whack with on any number of social or political issues and yet they're good on Israel or and yet they put the fight of anti against anti-Semitism at the forefront of their concern it seems like or on the other side. Right that you got to hold your nose to a progressive candidates views on Israel because you agree with them on affordability or immigration or you know of any number of liberal issues as a Jew you are you know traditionally aligned with it do you feel like we're living in a new moment or is this just kind of the way that politics always is. You know I think over the last decade and certainly over the last two and a half years or so since October 7th in particular the polarization and the reinforcement of these false choices has only depend and so we're really being offered false choices on both ends of the political spectrum on the right we're being told by the Trump administration and others that the only way to fight anti-Semitism is to undermine due process or civil liberties to gut academic research and funding for things like cancer research or Alzheimer's research. To go after core democratic norms and values that have been so important to our safety and the safety of all and that's a false choice for the reason we described before and so to on the far left we're being told that we can't be proudly Jewish we can't have a relationship with Israel. We can't believe in Jewish self-determination and also believe in and uphold small D democratic and humanitarian values were being offered that false choice as well and so our job and I would say that the polling and everything that I know and I suspect you both know talking to real Jews is that most of us are in the middle we reject these false choices we believe deeply that we shouldn't have to shy away from being proudly Jewish we shouldn't have to shy away. Or answer litmus tests related to our belief in Jewish self-determination or the Jewish homeland and also that we need to stand up proudly and unequivocally for democratic values and norms in the rule of law and so how we reject these false choices and carve out that space for complexity and nuance and the understanding that multiple things can be true at the same time that someone can believe in Palestinian human rights and do so in a way that doesn't discount or undermine. Jewish or undermine Jewish safety that we can believe in in you know holding people engaged in anti-Semitism accountable and do so in a way that is fully compliant with our civil liberties and rights in the rule of law we can do all of these things at the same time and reject the sort of zero some false choices that have really become so prominent in the discourse but I think are really how to step for the vast majority of Jewish Americans and frankly most Americans are. So just to understand this and what you said here and some of the other things that I've seen you say if I understand this correctly that anti-Semitism is not just a threat to Jews but it's a threat to everybody correct exactly. And explain so the greater threat is that if we don't if we disrespect Jews dismiss Jews hate on Jews that that where is the threat to democracy in general yeah well so i'll go back to sort of this question this idea of anti-Semitism not just as a form of hate but really is this insidious conspiracy theory what's unique about anti-Semitism is it's not just hating us as Jews because of who we are what we look like how we pray or don't pray what we. Or don't pray what we eat or don't eat it's also this pernicious conspiracy that suggests we are some all powerful controlling cabal or puppet master and what that's intended to do is not just demonize Jews although certainly it does and it leads to direct violence and attacks on Jews as we know so well from across the ideological spectrum but it's also intended to really so distrust not just between communities and that sort of division. But in our institutions right it's if you can't trust that your government is in control by some shadowy entity if you can't control that if you can't believe that there isn't some plot to you know replace the white race with immigrants and refugees and black people that the Jewish community is orchestrating how can you have trust in our government and our democracy in our society. And so ultimately it fuels not just attacks against Jews but attacks against so many communities as we've seen in the cycle of violence for example the very same conspiracy theories that fueled the Pittsburgh attack the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in US history. The replacement invasion lies about white about Jews replacing the white race with immigrants that same conspiracy theory fueled attacks in the Latino community in El Paso the black community in Buffalo it was heard echoed on January 6th at the Capitol. And so we see how this anti-Semitism the conspiracy theories at its core are used across the ideological spectrum as the salient wedge to divide our communities to so distrust in division and ultimately leads to threats against not just Jews but so many communities in the core of our democratic institutions. So I'm going to apologize ahead of time for asking this question and make you the person to answer for all those who in the interest of Israel and believing that this administration would serve Israel's efforts better we're willing to compromise on other things here at home. So how do you how do you balance those two things you know look I run a 501 see three so I can't endorse candidates or tell people how to vote the rules are different for for rabbis these days. And no one to blur that line. Yeah, I was going to say he's paid the price. But I I wrote a strip of I won't see through so I can't you know I can't weigh in on how people should vote or how and I try not to do so. But that being said I think we shouldn't cut our nose to spite our face or whatever metaphor or analogy you want to use right I think we can demand that our candidates are elected officials wherever they are in the ideological spectrum walk and chew gum at the same time just like we are supposed to do that if you know that they can be strongly committed to the safety and security of Israel and its people. They can speak out unequivocally against the horrors of October 7th they can fight for the releases of the host that will think not only one hostage but the hostages as we've seen over the last two and a half years. And they can also do so in a way that's commit you know not discounting the importance of Palestinian humanity and dignity and they can fight anti-semitism wherever it exists across the ideological spectrum and they can do so in a way. It's protective of our democratic norms and values and the rule of law so I think we need to hold our elected officials and our politicians whomever they are whether they're president Trump or a democratic nominee or the mayor of New York or anyone else to the standard that we as American Jews I think largely but live and breathe if you actually look at where the pole data is on our community and what I think many of us are hearing when we're out talking to communities around the country. So Amy why are you running for public office? Oh God. I mean your voice is such an important one the same center. How did you become Amy Spitalnik champion of the Jews? Oh gosh. I don't know. I you know I'm the grand kid of Holocaust survivors and in so many ways that really shape to I am probably in a way that I recognize now much more than I probably recognize 10 15 20 years ago because of how salient their stories have become to the moment that we're in. It was really a piece of history that I was you know proud of in awe of growing up but you know my both my grandparents have been gone for a long time but their stories in so many ways really I think shape my understanding of the world shape how fragile Jewish safety is and shapes I think my understanding of why fighting for core democratic values for justice for equality and dignity is inherent to our values and safety is Jews. And so I you know I grew up on the island at both my parents were New York City public school teachers seeing you know them fight for example for fair contracts growing up and the ways in which the public school system and the lack of resources for the lack of equity and equality in that system for so many kids. I think drove my desire to get into public service and I spent a number of years in in government public service including in city hall and in the New York AG's office and have such a deep belief in local and state government and the power that it has particularly at a moment when there's such stagnation on the federal level. And you know when I had the opportunity to work with plaintiffs who were injured in the Charlottesville violence on the lawsuit that you mentioned when the lawyers were thinking about the case approached me and asked if I'd be interested in leading the nonprofit. Given my family history given the work I'd been doing it just felt impossible to see no and you know thinkfully feel like we need to specify these days that we won that lawsuit that the jury of of people from the western district of Virginia found those Nazis liable for the violence in Charlottesville to the tune of 26 million dollars. And in many ways it was that experience that really sharp in my understanding of not just anti-semitism, but how it fits into broader anti-democratic extremism and hate today and unfortunately you know I took this job a month before October 7th I started the job. And the ways in which JCPA's work of you know being in coalition working in civil rights and democracy and progressive spaces to fight for our values and our safety was more relevant than ever was was certainly clear and so to when the election happened and we started seeing the attacks on our democracy so to is that part of of JCPA's work more urgent than ever. I want to talk to you about anti-semitism left and right I want to talk to you about the national agenda of JCPA but before we get to those what the hack happened in New York City. I mean I went out on a limb I made it a threshold issue in my own mind in my own community that as John and I were smoothing about earlier that I'm done as anti-semitism disqualified him from receiving my vote there was a posity of you know solid candidates to choose from but I knew where where my views were. And much has been said about the 70 30 split that 30% of the New York Jewish community voted for mom Donnie despite or notwithstanding his anti-seinous views so that's sort of the thumbnail sketch of it you might not agree with that sort of framing of it but what does it say about the New York Jewish electorate or how do you make sense of. Of this moment. You know I think there's a few things happening here first and foremost the vast majority of New Yorkers including certain Jews many Jews probably are not voting on issues of Israel or even anti-semitism they're voting on issues of affordability and education I mean I have a three year old we're applying for universal pre K now right this is. This is very selling it for me and I work on anti-semitism for living and so so certainly understanding that the vast majority of voters were not you know deep in thinking about these issues the way that perhaps the three of us are. Or the people that frankly I talk to on a daily basis might be and so we need to we need to recognize that broader context that this was an election that was as much as so many people on both ends of the political spectrum might be trying to make it a referendum on Israel or an anti-semitism I don't think it actually was it was a referendum on. I think the broader direction of New York City and what people want from their mayor and their fear around whether this is a city that they can afford to live in for the long term and I say that myself as someone who's thinking a lot about that question. I also think that you know there's there's it's it's complicated with with many in the Jewish community there are some in the Jewish community who agree of course with with mayor mom Donnie on his policies on Israel there are others who. But might not disagree as vehemently as others might and it. When you think about what the mayor has the power to do how can you actually ultimately push them to use the tools that their disposal versus you know their desire to perhaps be engaged in a foreign policy conversation to address these issues in a way that actually both keeps the Jewish community safe and doesn't. Take him away from the values that he believes that until I think right now we have an opportunity and he actually uniquely has an opportunity as perhaps the most prominent you know pro Palestinian politician in the country to show that you can be deeply committed to Palestinian human rights and dignity and self determination and you can do so in a way that's also deeply and unequivably committed to Jewish safety here and around the globe. And so there's the preliminary budget coming up there's a lot of higher as he needs to make there's a lot of policies he's going to be rolling out in the weeks and months ahead and he really has a chance to show that you know despite the real disagreements with significance was of the Jewish community over Israel he's going to use his not just his bully pulpit but the real levers of city government to invest in the policies and the broader efforts to keep our community safe. Do you believe that there can be a distinction between anti Zionism and anti-Semitism I mean when when the mayor says I'm an anti Zionist but I'm no anti-Semite do you think that is a defensible or practical application a stand that's to be believed. In theory yes in practice it's much harder right and that's where it gets messy because we see how for example in a specially in a post October 7th world but certainly before that there's this blurring of of those lines in certain spaces you hear for example efforts to ban and boycott Zionist from you know whether it's artists or academics or students or something like that. When the 80 to 90% of American Jews have a relationship with Israel even if we don't agree with its government even if we don't support its policies and Gaza or elsewhere that's effectively saying that 80 to 90% of American Jews are not welcome in that space and that becomes a form of anti-Semitic discrimination so how we help people understand these terms and what they actually mean in practice and how in theory we can you know discuss. You know people might be opposed to ethno nationalism to to states rooted in religion they might their anti Zionist Jews we can talk about whether in theory it's always anti-Semitic in practice we've seen how that line can be crossed and I think our job is to help people understand you know where that theoretical becomes the practical in terms of causing harm. So you I think you've spoken about this and correct me if I'm wrong that sort of just touching on this a little bit that you've spoken about how Jews everywhere are often held responsible for the actions of Israel and its government correct. I mean that's in terms of you know anti-Semitic attacks targeting us or okay so just to play devil's advocate here for a moment okay and to fly a little bit higher. Because that's not really unique to Jews is it I mean post post World War II or during World War II if you were German you were thrown into the basket of you were a Nazi post 9/11 all Muslims in this country got thrown under you know into one basket so when you when you say that about Jews is that really it may be accurate but is it but is it is it unique. It's a good question I would say that each of the examples you gave are slightly different right because in terms of the right like we most Jews especially in the United States or not Israeli but we have a connection to the Jewish homeland even if we're not you know in our immediate past generations from there. Maybe the post 9/11 example is more apropos in which Muslims no matter where they were from or being held accountable for the actions of the terrorists on 9/11 not to not to suggest that there is that that's comparable with you know what's happening now. So it's messy right like like I think we as Jews sometimes like to think that that everything uniquely happens to us and it's easy to feel that way because anti-Semitism is is one of if not people this forms of hate and we are disproportionately targeted if you just look at the hate crimes statistics but you're right that that oftentimes the sort of collective responsibility or attacks on a community in the name of of you know hypothetically protesting. The government's actions or another actors actions is is is far more pervasive what's challenging is that the Jewish communities relationship with Israel is messy right there's no two Jews have the same exact relationship with Israel most of us have a deep relationship with it many of us have been there spent time there lived there I spent a year living there. And also our frame of references is difference even among the Jewish community even between generations in the Jewish community I'm perhaps the last generation of of Americans including American Jews that knew in Israel under existential threat in terms of the end of Fada in terms of the bus bombings and pizzeria and nightclub bombings that were so formative in my understanding of Israel. I think he were you where I walk past the memorial for the blown up cafeteria every single day I ate my cafeteria that only a few years earlier had been bombed and I'm also perhaps the last generation that knew in Israel that wasn't led by BB Netanyahu however you feel about him you can understand how that shapes people's thinking of Israel and their understanding of it. And it's probably right like Mamdani he's 34 he's younger than me he's he's from a different generation in terms of even just maybe the six or so years between us and in in how he's understanding of Israel and the conflict evolved he was much younger when the second into Fada happened. And so thinking about the frame of reference that many of us come to this with and our understanding of not just Israel and its place in the world and the threats at faces and its government versus sort of its right to exist and all of the questions we grapple with it's it's important because if we're going to be able to actually move people and help them understand where that line is between criticism of Israel. And real anti-Semitism we need to also make sure we're even speaking the same language about what Zionism is what what a relationship with Israel is what the distinction is between supporting your self determination and supporting the actions of a government and so on. I want to the rabbi asked you about how you landed where you did professionally like why you are who you are why you're doing this. I wanted to run for public office John okay all right so we won't we won't ask about all the skeletons in the closet but I assume there are none but is there is there a specific personal incident that sticks out in your mind from your youth that you saw your parents or your grandparents or you directly where the recipient of or the target of I should say. You know I was very fortunate I grew up in what some have described as the golden age for American jury I lived on Long Island where you know you notice that her long the G of her long island is a second word not the first word keep going Amy you grew up on long Island long Island keep going. You have to say it correctly and it's on long Island not in long Island yeah but you know I was very lucky I knew anti-Semitism existed I don't think any anyone was under the illusion that it went away but it you know was more in like maybe school your jokes about like Jewish cheapness then the violent anti-Semitism that's become so normalized today and so for me I think there were a few incidents I remember in 2016 right after the election. There was a spike in broader hate crimes and my local Park in Brooklyn Adam Yacht playground in for the late Beastie boys yeah. There was a swastika found and now I think if there was a swastika on a New York City or any playground we would all just be like. Sure that's what's happening these days but in 2016 it still felt very notable and I helped I worked with you know my former boss at the time and others to organize a press conference and a rally responding to the swastika and we had. Hundreds of community members come out and for me that was very formative that both there was sort of hate unleashed in a way that felt like it was only going to grow and certainly Charlottesville the following summer really ripped off the bandaid in terms of how anti-Semitism racism and other hate was unleashed but also that people were not going to stand by and they they were angry about it and that gave me some hope. Certainly the ways in which you know in my last role and we were doing the Charlottesville case I can you know I can say this now and I always you know hope my mother is not listening but the daily death threats from the Nazi defendants the ways in which they would. Use just the most vial anti-Semitic and also of course misogynistic and other language to threaten and attack me and the other is involved with the litigation was in some ways almost a caricature of anti-Semitism today and those same voices you know Nick Flinties for example just this month was seen you know singing Hitler songs in Miami Beach. You know where we see how what felt fringe a decade ago has really been mainstreamed and normalized in so many ways and seeing the early glimpses of that in you know 2016 in Charlottesville and in the broader ways in which that cycle unfolded I think really perhaps makes me horrified but not very surprised about the moment that we're in today. Do you think it's better that you know this had long been talked about in the African American community that in the south racism was out in the open but you didn't know what you were getting up north because there was this idea that the north was not racist or not as racist. So the question is is it good and please understand I'm putting good in quotations here that you know where people stand is it better not to have closeted bigotry and that we now know that there is all this hate out there not that we didn't know it existed for years and years and years but is it better to know where your neighbor stands. Yeah it's a tough question because I think two things are true I think there is closeted hate that has been given license and people are now feeling emboldened to come out of the woodwork to come out of the shadows and you know march and Charlottesville or you know attack Jewish students on campus or whatever it might be right there's now an emboldened this that probably gives license to people who were likely already there. But what's more in our control and where I think we need to focus our energies how do we keep this relegated to this to the small number of people who actually harbor these beliefs and prevent it from becoming so normalized and mainstreamed. And that's where the role of elected officials in government and civic leaders and clergy and so many others coming the normalization of this anti-semitism and a variety of ways from elected officials on social media from public figures a Kanye so many others is part of why not just people are emboldened to already felt this way but there might be an increase in in in anti-semitism because all of a sudden it's given light it's it's mainstreamed. It's deemed appropriate and does that mean that you think they prior to October 7th mom dummy if he had run could not have been as vocal as he is as he has been. I don't know it's a good question and I also you know I there's so many questions to ask about sort of the mom Donnie race and the win and what it means not just generationally and in terms of the understanding of Israel that we were talking about it or even the role that Israel. And even the role that Israel plays in a New York City mayor race where frankly it shouldn't play such a major role but of course it did for many many reasons and and so it's a tough question because I think one we're just in a fundamentally different role than we were a few years ago. I think that if you know say Donald Trump weren't president would mom Donnie have one right there's different dynamics to ask because we're in a unique political moment and so it's hard to really know you know the sliding door effect of of how we got here. Just I think we're right I don't know how much time we have you're awesome tell me about JCPA like you you combat hatred you protect democracy you're like the the walking example are of if I am not for myself who will be for me and if I'm only for myself and what am I. At what what's the work of JCPA how do you make a difference so our work is exactly what we've been talking about JCPA has been around for almost 82 years we were founded in 1944 at a time when Jews were quite literally trying to bang down the White House door to get the administration to pay attention to what was happening in Europe and failing and recognizing that the only way we could build the political power and the impact that we needed was to build strong coalitions across lines of difference across diverse communities and so. That was the genesis of JCPA you know we co founded the leadership conference on civil rights with the NAACP in 1950 I sit on its board and that has been a place of hope over the last two and a half years where for example we worked with the leadership conference to put out a statement from 65 civil rights groups calling anti-semitism targeting Jews over the actions of Israel clearly anti-semitism as we saw some trying to use the boulder and capital Jewish museum attacks to argue that that's about. That's about Israeli policy and not about targeting Jews for example and so our work is really that it's that two way street we've been talking about it's certainly mobilizing Jews to show up for democracy to make clear that in this really challenging moment we believe we can both protect our community and our core democratic values and norms and keep showing up for the rights and safety of all communities. And also to argue that there is no real democracy that there is no real rights and safety for other communities if the Jewish community isn't safe and so we do this in a few ways we work certainly on the national policy and advocacy front in DC and more broadly with a number of partners in the Jewish community and across the civil rights and democracy space. We work with Jewish community relations councils and other local Jewish institutions and leaders around the country to engage and empower them in understanding and moving forward coalition and bridge building. And we also do a lot of work on public narrative how are we helping key leaders and institutions understand the complexity of anti-semitism so for example the conversation I had with Alexandria Ocasio Cortez not that long. And you very kindly I think gave a sermon on it and talked about how you know certainly you and many in the Jewish community have deep disagreements with AOC including and especially on Israel but she invited me to do a webinar on anti-semitism to talk to her social media followers about what it looks like in all of its forms. And we had just a frank and open conversation and she in turn I think has really illustrated over the last few years what it means to evolve and hold complexity on this she's support an iron dome even if she doesn't necessarily support offensive arms us to Israel which is a complex position for someone in her shoes she's spoken out against anti-semitism clearly and unequivocally including the pro-Hamas protest in Cucardins this month. And she was unendorced by a democratic socialist chapter after the webinar as a result and we similarly do work whether it's their partnership with the national teachers unions to help engage and empower their members and understanding anti-semitism more deeply and with more complexity and nuance or through our democracy and civil rights coalitions. How can we actually help those in these coalition spaces across lines of difference understand that even if there's disagreements over Israel here's where that line is here's how we don't give an inch and standing up for Jewish safety even as we fight for the humanity and dignity of all people and our democracy. And just so everyone knows it's Jewish public affairs dot org and what I love about the website is it's not just sort of a statement of mission and a history but it also gives you steps for taking action which ultimately is what matters so we don't sit on our hands. If you've liked what Amy's been talking about if you find yourself simpatico with her views of the need of a sane center people who can have a yes and view of of exercising your Jewish self both concern for the other and concern for the Jewish people that these are not either or these are both and JCPA is where it's at. As Adam Yacht once said you got to fight for your right whether it's a party or whether it is for democracy or for Jewish self determination and safety these things don't happen things happen in this world because we make them happen and Amy you live and breathe that. Thank you thank you thank you for making the time to be with us on common faith you've inspired us all to take action thank you Amy thank you for having me. You have been listening to common faith here on serious XM I'm Elliott Cosgrove I'm John Franco and if you want to follow us on social media at Elliott Cosgrove or email us nice or nasty emails at common faith at serious XM dot com or like or subscribe to the podcast news shows every Thursday morning. Thank you so much next time with Jonah plat which should be a fascinating and fabulous conversation thanks for being with us.