Amy

two really fantastic years of teaching PE and coaching soccer in the Philippines. I loved it. It was to date probably the most fulfilling job that I've ever had. That being said, I do want to add into this section a like giant apology to any kids that I taught that at that time that may be listening because I was fully invested in the Christian perspective and the modesty culture. And I did my darnest to brainwash them, I guess, into that way of being. And I have a lot of regret around that we had all these child safety classes that we were all required to take. It was because of those child safety classes that I was forced to sit through and get trauma- like triggered and traumatized from. That I was made aware of my own childhood trauma. That was the first time I became aware of what happened to me. You're the first faith academy teacher that's been on the podcast that's really gone there. I felt the apology. I mean, I was a student there. I wasn't there when I'm older than you. But that, sorry, then that'll want to me. Yeah, I'm so sorry. And you know, like you know the sexual trauma that you experienced on a daily basis in Africa, I'm sure you were trying to protect those girls in a way from being a target because you had been. So it's totally understandable that cycle of traumatizing women for just being. I used the word woman, children, for traumatizing young girls, for just going through adolescence. Yeah, no, I definitely did the cycle and I don't feel good about it. It's something that I've worked through a lot. I haven't had the opportunity to actually say that to anyone. So I don't know who's going to listen to it, but I hope that people that needed to hear that do. Because I was a zealous for all of that. [Music] This is Kuleman. This is Caleb. Welcome to Life and Wasted, a podcast where we look into our past to discover our present. So tonight, I was scrambling around trying to finish developing some black and white photos that I had done with my son. I loved doing, luckily I went to a high school, a faith academy in Manila Philippines, where there was a photo lab. I never took the photo class, but I would go in there and sneak in with some of my friends. And we'd take, you know, take black and white photos. And mostly we were just enjoying the air conditioning, you know, because it was like a billion degrees out in the afternoon. So tonight, I was just having a lot of memories pop up related to that. And our guest had to message us because she was pulling some stuff out of the oven and needed a little bit more time. And it's just a good reminder that all of you out there who are folding laundry and baking muffins and living life and just like embracing the busy nature of it, we're here with you. And we love being in your ears while you walk your dog or garden or whatever it is you're doing right now. I hope our conversation tonight brings you insight and joy and more than anything just connection. So human, any thoughts? This is a show about missionary kids. We're going all over the world. We're going to hit multiple countries in tonight's episode. So I'm excited about that. Human. I'm throwing it to you. SB are going all over the world. We have three time zones represented right now. Amy is over there. 6.30 in the evening. So probably waiting for the sun to set. Caleb is little later than that. 7.30 for you. No, no, 9.30. Yeah, 9.30 for me. So Caleb's in way into the night. And for me personally, I'm in the earlier hours of the morning 10.30 a.m. It's fascinating how we are all connected in this way, but we do have one commonality and that we understand each other like no other people else can. We are MK's and we're all here for you. We're always ready to listen in on the fantastic stories. You so will only share with us. Thank you, Amy for gracing us with your presence. Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so without further ado, the give us the planes, trains and automobiles of your MK experience. Thank you. This question was coming and I've still. Yeah, which is funny. Since this is probably the only space in which you can give all of those things and nobody's going to like zone out and do something else. Hopefully. So. Yeah. I. Well, I'm going to go back a little bit because my grandparents went to Kenya in the early 60s to be missionaries. And Kenya, my. My grandpa was a builder and developer. So he built a lot of Rift Academy. And did water projects all over Kenya, built the hospital there in Kajabi as well. So that's where my dad was born. He went, you know, all his school years to Rift Rift Salia Academy. And then he, when he graduated, he went to college in Nebraska where he met my mom. And they both did short term missions to Eure and Jaya, I believe. And when they got married, that's where they thought they were. Eure and Jaya is that that's. Indonesia area. Yes, yes, yeah, it's all during Jaya at the time, right? And so I'm not. Yeah, and that's where they wanted to go when they signed up for missions. But at the time there was unrest or something, they weren't sending missionaries there anymore. And so the mission was like, we're sending you to Cameron. And they were like, where's that? So they packed up their bags and moved to Cameron and got put in a super, super, super remote village in the middle of nowhere. Looking back as an adult now and having children and like all the things. And like, wow, that's intense. But yeah, they went there. And most of the time you had to be flown in by helicopter to our village because the road was so poor. If you did take the road, which is more like a pot hold. And then you had to get a engine with despair, you know, like get lost in the giant pot holes of it would take 10 to 12 hours to get to the nearest like town. And then later on in life, when they finally paid or read that road after I left now it takes 30 minutes to get to town. And I don't know how long that drive or how bad the road was, but so they arrived in Cameron and I believe they were staying at like the police station or something like that. There's no electricity, no burning water. They were just in this little room. And that's where they kind of spent the first year. Super sick and. You know, learning the language. They were in that. I don't know if you know this, but Cameron was calm as by the French and the English. So it has one or two English speaking provinces and the rest of the other 10. Wow. Our French speaking. So they were in the English speaking province, but they speak pigeon English there. And so they had to learn pigeon English because they didn't understand anything. And so they were saying people were saying, even though it was technically English. So they learned pigeon English and then they also learned. Isimbi, which was the language they spoke in Marlotte village of Benicuma. And yeah. It was a rough year for them. And then my dad decided that he was going to build a house so that we would have sort of a more modern ish. to grow a family, I think my mom was pregnant with me. by this time. And so he built this little house on top of the hill on some land that the chief of the village had given them. And yeah, that's where I mean, I wasn't born there. I say I was born in Benicomah, but we were taken out of the village and went to the mission hospital where my mom was in labor for like, I think she said like 32 hours or something to deliver me. Oh my goodness. Yeah, in the mission hospital. I was just not wanting to come out. I was also like two or three weeks late or something like that. And in the middle of labor, they're trying to like suck me out with a what's the called forget what it's called, but there was like a suction thingy on my head that was out and electricity went off and it ripped off of my head and took a big chunk of my scalp with it at the time. And so then they're also trying to get me out with four steps and stuff, which also left like a scar like under my eye. But the I'm laughing at this. I'm sure my mother is not laughing about this story. Because they were like, we gotta get the suction thingy back on, but there was no electricity. So they got a bicycle pump in there and like in the background, my mom just hears like, we keep we keep we keep we keep we keep we keep we keep like trying to pull me out with the suction thing. So that's my grand entrance into the world. So you were delivered. But this is this is fascinating because there might be truth in you not wanting to come out into the world. This is scary as is, but given your predicament, being in a remote part of the world apart from of close relationships. So the infant you the fetus you might have instinctively thought it's not safe to go out better to stay in. Maybe. And joking about this. Yeah. Well, you know that song closing time, you know, it's supposed to be about like a baby being born and all that kind of stuff. And that yeah, you know, it's closing time. Yeah, but I forget I am terrible with lyrics, but the it's a it's about like you have to leave the womb and the reluctance of a baby doing that is anyway. That's what came to mind for me. Yeah. Yeah. Amy, can you remind me this country? We're in Cameroon. Cameroon. Yeah. West Africa right below Nigeria. Oh, okay. Yeah. In the armpit of Africa, like right in that corner. Um, what? Yeah. Let's continue. Yeah. It's interesting. You say that because then when I had my first baby, I was in the Philippines at that time. Um, and I was in labor for three days with him. He didn't know when to come out. So maybe there's something to that. Wow. Yeah. Um, that's wild. Yeah. So I spent the first eight years of my life in Benakuma in this little village where, you know, the mission helicopter would come and get us maybe like once a month to go into town to resupply and stuff. It was a very. Um, yeah, poor village. We were probably the first white people they'd ever seen ever. My parents were doing church planting there and testoral training. Um, and yeah. It's hard to always tell. It's hard to tell my life story without, with annoying like, do I tell it from the perspective of when I was there or in my perspective now looking back. Well, what would, what would, uh, yeah, so that's really interesting. I think it's, you know, I don't want to tell you which one. It's kind of both. Like it's, it's the Delta or the difference between the two. That I think is the interesting part. So what, what was your perception then and then looking back on it now as a parent, you know, as an adult with your adult eyes. You know, yeah. Yeah. Make sense of it. Yeah, I think I've come to like a lot more interesting awareness right now. Yeah, because I'm a parent. And then my, my partner right now, he grew up his whole life. You're in Portland. He's never really traveled. And when I tell him stories, he's always like, what the fuck were your parents thinking? Taking you all the way over there. I mean, birthing me over there, I guess. And but growing up, like, it's all I knew, right? So I was born into this village, even though it was the only white kid. I don't remember noticing that I was white. Or different until I was like six, five or six. Before that, like, I had so many friends. I was very like embraced by all the people in the village. They loved our family. I was given an assembly name, Yekum, which means delayed blessing. And because my parents had been married for seven years before they gave birth to me. And, you know, in the African culture, well, they didn't have birth control or anything like that, right? So, you know, you got married and you had a baby, you know? So they were very concerned for my parents that they hadn't started their family yet. So that was my name given by my assembly grandma there. And most of my memories as a small child are pretty positive. Like, I remember feeling very loved. We had two ladies and a young guy that worked for my parents. And honestly, well, this is where it's like perspective and at the time. At the time, I felt very loved, very taken care of, you know, these two ladies and this guy were like, my family, they took care of me all the time. You know, for all I knew, I was Cameronian. I spoke, I think I spoke as a me at the time, or I don't remember having any, having any communication issues, at least, with all my friends. The neighbors next door, their second youngest son was like my best friend. We just literally did everything together. His name was Joey was a few years older than me. And Isaac, the guy that worked for my parents, he was their like primary, like language teacher. And then later on, like, helped with their pastoral training school. He was like my big brother. We went fishing together. We went to the market together, get beans and puff puff puffs. And then we went to the savory donut that they make. It's like deep fried and palm oil for breakfast. Yeah. So my early, early memories are just like, what could be better? I had full reign of the village. I went anywhere I wanted. Whenever I wanted, you know, building forts in the home forest and playing with my friends and eating roasted grasshoppers and termites and the cook houses of my neighbors. And like it didn't seem to matter. I passed and seem to be concerned where I was. You know, when I look back at this time period, I'm like, I don't remember my parents a lot. I think they were off, you know, evangelizing and teaching and converting everyone to Christianity. So I was just, I had my own little world, you know, like I just, I got out with Joe and I was having a good time and. It sounds like a good one. It sounds like a good and wholesome one. But one that like, like that's really unique. I mean, you were really embedded. Yeah, you were like, it was like a real family. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's the difference. I've had compared to a lot of other TCKs. And maybe why at this point in my life or my whole life, not just this point, but I still feel very Cameronian versus American. Which I think a lot of like even my sister, I don't know if she would say she's Cameronian. I'll have to check in with her. But I feel so much more of an attachment than even me on my sister a lot of my friends that I grew up like missionary kid friends that I grew up with. And I think it's primarily because of this part of my life because I was just so integrated, you know, into the society and so accepted and I didn't feel the otherness at this point. But yeah, we would go to like missionary conferences. Like four times a year. One was for our mission itself. It was world team. Then one was like a group mission conference like more of a retreat, which was for like all the Baptist, the missions and cameras general. Baptist, our conference, North American Baptist and world team. And then we had to like homeschool co up times that we got together with other missionary kids and did school together. So these are kind of like the highlights, not as much at this point, but later on as I grew older and realized how different it was. And these are the highlights of my year when we got together with other missionaries and the sherry kids. and people that were more like me. But the reason I was bringing it up was because when I was one, the very first intermission conference that we went to, there was a family there, the blacks that there are third kid, Stephen, I met him at that point. And he is the person I ended up marrying when I was 20. So, oh wow. Yeah, so I met him and I was a baby and then we were very, like, good friend. We only saw each other once a year. His family lived in Nigeria. But we saw each other once a year growing up until about eighth grade. And we were very, very good friends. He had a crush on me since he was, you know, old enough to know what that meant, I think. And yeah, then his family left in eighth grade. I might move back to the States. I didn't see him after that in the lost contact completely. But I feel like we're skipping ahead a little bit. But the other thing I wanted to mention about, so my life's kind of broken up until like little categories. So this first category is living in Benacluma until I was eight. And so mostly what I've talked about now has been like all the good stuff. And then, you know, I had some really, really amazing friends. I'm not sure how much of names I should be throwing out, actually. But. - Yeah, that's up to you. You know, we generally recommend respecting people's privacy. - Yeah. - But, you know, we're recording this. If you want to take people's names out later, we can do that. It's easy. So, hopefully we can talk. - Yeah, I mean, if people know that it's me, like they're gonna figure out one step it. But, yeah. But also, if there are people who need to be named, then frickin' name on. We don't censor anybody. You know, if, yeah, absolutely. - Yeah, I talked to my mentor about this last night because I was having a little bit of an anxiety about it because there are some really tough stuff that I'm gonna try and talk about. And I've up until now not told anyone to protect them for some reason, but I don't know if they deserve to be protected. And so, I think this will be my opportunity to speak my truth. It's kind of why I chose the song that I chose. Make my truth and not be held, like, silenced, which I feel like a lot of my life I was. So, yeah. But anyway, I was just saying, like, a lot of differents in the mission community and in the village. However, when I was around five, we had a family that were teammates of ours that lived one village over. And their daughter was several years older than me, maybe four or five years older than me. So she might have been 10 or so at this point. And she kind of scared me, but she was also like an older girl that I kind of looked up to and wanted to please. And, you know, kind of did whatever she said. But yeah, during this time, sorry, I'm having a moment. - You know, yeah, like. It's okay. Yeah, she sexually abused me when I was five. For a while, I remember distinctly, like, three separate times, but I think it went on for a fair amount of time based on my fear and obedience to her. And one of the times, I think it was the second one. We were at one of the conferences and one of the rooms and she had already done what she was doing. But my parents came and knocked on the door and we locked the door and I little scrambled to get my clothes on and I was so scared and so ashamed. But I didn't know at that time what was going on. I just knew I wasn't supposed to be in a room with like a door locked, you know. And I got in so much trouble from my parents at that time and it wasn't until I was like 26 that I actually realized what had been happening to me at that time. And the reason I say that is because, you know, this happened to me and my parents like punished me for being in this room with the door closed and blah, blah, blah or lying or whatever. I just didn't have any support from them around, you know, this horrible thing that was happening to me. I don't know, I didn't know to speak up or, you know, a lot of them is like, I think about it. I, well, for a long time, I thought like, oh, well, I was complicit in this and I think that's how a lot of victims feel. It's like, I, you know, I asked for it or I participated. I didn't say no, I didn't, you know, but I was five. I didn't know how to say no. I mean, I have a six year old right now. There's no way. Like, you know, and that's where like the perspective comes in of being on this side of it, looking back versus like in the moment just being like, I don't know, this girl is doing these things to me and she must, it must be fine because she's older than me and I trust her, you know, and me. So hold on, my cupcakes are gonna be here. - Yep, yeah. - Yes, we are middle, in the middle of cupcakes and, you know, life. - And that. - Amy, I just wanna say, well, you know, that is bullshit that that happened to you. There should have been people protecting you. And that is not something that you did willingly. I mean, I know you know that, but that's just, that's just fucking awful. It should not have happened to you. - Thank you, she'll, and I've been in therapy for a long time. So I didn't know that. And I've even told this story a fair number of times but telling it so publicly is new and a little bit rough. But I know that a lot of, a lot of people, period, a lot of girls, but especially in missionary kids have experienced a lot of different forms of abuse. And that's one of the things that, I feel like really needs to be named and gotten out there in some way. And it won't get that, it won't get out there or be spoken until, you know, victims are okay with going through the discomfort of talking about it, you know? - And it shouldn't be on you. It shouldn't be on the victims to name it because so many of these sending organizations and so many of the adults in our lives knew it was happening. They should be the ones, they should be the ones solving this problem. It shouldn't be on your shoulders to do that. And I think it's incredible that you're revealing this because we talked to so many missionary kids and so many female, you know, adult MKs who still want, still need for whatever reason or choose for whatever reason to protect their mission and protect their family and their parents and they don't want their parents to know because it would be upsetting to their parents. And only you, you know, I'm speaking out to the, to all of our listeners, only you know what is right for you. But unless these stories are told, people are gonna think that they're alone and systems won't change. But it shouldn't be your job. It shouldn't be your job, Amy, to fix this. - It's just a constant, and it happens so often within the missionary community and that's why it's not reported because it's part of the ecosystem. So anyway, yeah. - Yeah, now I appreciate that and thank you. I think where I stand and all of that is that I agree with you and because I am positioned in a place of leadership as a coach and business owner and all these things, I do feel that I have, not that it is my responsibility, but I have the tools and the ability to speak to it and bring light to it and make a difference. And that has been something that has been on my heart to move towards in my, I don't know about career necessarily, but in my impact using the platforms that I have. And this is an exciting one. Like last year I did my very first public speaking event and I was terrified. And it was only 15 minutes, so it was a very brief version of what I'm telling today. But I just felt like my story needed to be out there. And when I did speak it healed me and be like so many people came up to me afterwards saying like thank you so much for sharing that really helped me. And so I think that's why we tell our stories, right? Is A for our own healing, but also for the healing of others. And also another critical aspect of us telling our stories is to stop the perpetuation of these horrible instances. Unless we name the evils in this world, chances are those evils will continually repeat until the end of time. So I have great admiration and respect, but must respect for you Amy and all other people who've gone through horrendous experiences yet choose not to, not to dust them under the rug, but pull it out into the light so as to prevent further future victims. Yeah, yeah. And that's very evident in my lineage of I'm a third generation missionary. Well, I'm not worried, but I was. I just, my grandpa, my dad's dad died a couple of years ago. And I had read his biography written about him. Is that why he's biography? Whichever one, someone else wrote it about him. I read it again after he died and you know, as after I had left Christianity and I read it with like these new eyes. And there was a little tiny blurping there that refer referenced like him being abused by somebody, you know, one of his family members and also his sister and his dad was just super physically abusive, you know, and I'm just like, oh my god, no one talked about this. No one. But there's a tiny, you know, paragraph in there that like kind of nods to it, but right after it, he's like, but I forgave him, you know, until we were just moving on, you know, it was just like this, this happened, but because I'm a Christian, we're just going to sweep it under the rug and forgive everything and it's not, you know, and I feel like I hear that so often in like Christian needs. Like, well, these horrible things happen, but like it was, I don't know, it was God's will, right? But the good of something and we're just going to forget the people because, you know, Jesus forgave them and I'm just like, okay, you can forgive people. Like, I think that's part of my healing journey is forgiveness for sure, but it's also like a load of crap too that needs to be dealt with and people need to have consequences. I don't necessarily think that this girl specifically needs to have consequences because she was also young, you know, and I truly believe that probably her brother or someone was abusing her. I don't have backs for that, but I just based on my memories. So I don't think that you should be held accountable as like a ten- I think you need treatment. Yes. I don't think it's about punishment, even for adults, like, there's a punishment aspect or whatever, but ultimately like that has just happened. You know, that's a person that's unwell. You know, that this is a person that has probably been abused herself and will probably continue to have issues in this area unless she has treatment. And I think just related to storytelling, I was watching a TED Talk recently and it was about Africa and it was an Africa woman saying, you know, Americans have one story of Africa in their head and it's about poverty and it's about white saviors and all of that sort of thing. And the importance of Africans telling their story because Africa is a big fucking place, you know, and there's a million different stories and the more stories that we get into the atmosphere, the more comprehensive of you we can have. And that is the same for missionary kids. Like, there is one version of a story that's allowed and that is, I grew up overseas, look at all these cool things I saw and wild things that was a part of, but God helped me the whole way and yes, terrible things happened, but it was all in his plan in order to further the king. You know, we all know the story were allowed to tell. But unless we put, you know, I think that so much of this podcast is just increasing the number of stories that are out there so that, you know, as human beings, we can understand the incredible diversity within the missionary kid experience. And there is cool stuff like when you're talking about your, your early childhood, those are some cool ass memories, you know, but all throughout it, it's like, where are your parents? Yeah. I'm, yeah, I'm sure they were there. They have like some memories of them, like, you know, like, yeah, being on the back, like, we had a motorcycle that we would take throughout the village because there were like, little paths, not roads. So if we wanted to go, like, somewhere else in the village or to a different village, we go on this, like, Yamaha 200 that my dad had. And it would be like, my dad was driving my mom behind him and then I was on like the luggage rack and then my sister was on the gas tank. Perfect. And we just like speed around the village and like, on this motorcycle or if it was far, like somewhere where our bike couldn't go, we would all trek. I was called trekking. I'm hiking, I guess. And there's pictures of me, like in these big, like backpack carriers, you know, the big framed ones, you know, traversing these big rivers and my parents used to go out and, you know, spend overnight and other villages. And I don't know where I was going with that. I was just had a visual of like, I do. Yeah. You painted a beautiful picture. Oh, thanks. There was a waterfall there, the river, the mentioned falls. And, you know, every once in a while there was these tines where I remember like, oh, like, my parents must have taken day off. And like, we went on a little family trip and, you know, what's swimming at the river, like fishing or stuff like that. Yeah, the early memories, there's not a lot of, I don't have a lot of memory of my parents. Or even my sister, which is also odd. I mean, she's only 17 months younger than me. But what I remember of her was like, when you're on a plan side and she'd be like, I want to play with dolls or Barbies or whatever, or dooblo. And I was like, well, that's boring. Like there's a whole outside with like mango trees and globetries and, Raphael palms to fort, to build and, you know, to climb. And she like, either was too young or just didn't like being out. I don't know. Like, well, that was, but she would never, it never felt like she came outside, you know, or played with us. So, and that continued actually a lot into later on, but we'll get into that later. But, Amy, I think we may have to consider doing a two-part series for you, because I feel that given the time constraints that we have, the next 30 or 40 minutes might not do you just as we relate to your whole story. So, we may need another 40 minutes. Yeah. So, let's absolutely, let's keep moving, but keep that in the back of your mind that I don't think we're done here. I know you're a hard person to schedule. That's what I'm sure. But, because you're a very, very busy woman and small business owner. But, yeah, let's keep going through your journey here. Yeah. Well, this is good transition point too, because we're talking about memories of my parents. And one of the earliest memories of my mom, we weren't actually in the village. We were somewhere else. And my mom came up to me or I saw her on the road and she was crying. And I don't know if I'd ever seen my mom cry before. And that is like a core memory for me, just like, why is my mom crying? And I guess my, her mom had, had a stroke and they had just heard about it. And so, at that point, we rushed, I guess, as much as you can rush from Africa back to the States to be with my mom's family. Well, my grandma was in the hospital and what we got back there, it was, I think it was winter. And we were there for, this is, I don't know, it's kind of hard to tell because I was still a kid how long we were there or whatever. But I remember going to visit my grandma in the hospital and I remember the nurse telling me like, well, because she was completely unresponsive, just like laying there. And I, the last time I'd seen her, I was three maybe. and I was eight now. So I didn't remember her at all, right? And so the nurse was like, "You could draw her picture." And I was like, "Okay." And I went home and I did not draw her picture. And then she died. And I remember years afterwards feeling guilty that because I didn't draw her picture, she died, which I know is totally ridiculous. But in my little eight-year-old brain, you know, I somehow caused my grandma's death with my just indifference to her. But I didn't know her, you know? Like my family was back in Cameroon and I was devastated that I was here. So my grandma died and my mom was devastated, understandably. And I don't remember going back to Cameroon, but I guess we went back to Cameroon, packed up our house, everything, and then we came back, like, you know, so it was like a really quick turnaround. But I do remember like saying goodbye to everyone in the village and just like crying and like, I guess my parents weren't that weren't planning to come back to that village. I don't know if they weren't planning to come back to Cameroon, but they left as if they were never coming back. And so I was leaving everybody. I knew all my friends, all my family, you know, my village, like everything I knew when we went back to the States to live with my grandpa to help him. My mom, yeah, I was helping him, like, you know, like housekeeping and just moving through the grief of losing his wife. And that was like probably, I mean, well, I was not to say the hardest year of my life, but I've definitely had harder sense. But as a child, one of the hardest years of my life, like, everything was just so foreign. We were in Omaha, Nebraska, and it was cold, and it was weird, and then we were in a city. And I was used to being able to go anywhere and everywhere by myself whenever I wanted, you know, with no supervision. And now we're in the city where it was like, I couldn't even go outside in the yard and climb a tree and people would freak out. And then we went to public school, and I'd been homeschooled up until this point. And public school was so hard, there were so many rules, and I didn't understand why there were rules. And I would get in trouble even though I was a good kid, just because I just didn't understand. And I would just be devastated because I couldn't believe that like I'd done something wrong, you know what I mean? Like I would just be racked with guilt, even though it was like silly things like don't touch the snow. I don't know why we weren't supposed to touch the snow. But so that was that year. The best part of the year though was my grandpa. I got to actually know my grandpa that year, and he's probably the only grandparent that I really got to know in my childhood besides, you know, furlough visits, you know, but we lived with him that whole year. And then my sister like really made a difference for him like in his grieving process, just having two little girls around. And he knew I was having a hard time and I missed Cameron and you know I was crying a lot and he loved ice cream and he would every single night we would eat ice cream. And in Cameron we didn't have ice cream unless my mom made it. So it was very special for us. I was like oh ice cream every single night. And he would get the chocolate chip ice cream and he said Amy. This is ice cream with bugs in it because I know you like to eat bugs. So that was my like primary memory of my grandpa at that age and he would also like go. That's really special. Yeah. We would go up to give him, we were living in the basement. We'd go up to give him good night kisses every night and he would grab us and then rub us with his like stubble on his chin and give us whiskers and we would all shrink and run away and you know just like load girl stuff. So it was a really really hard year but also like I feel so grateful especially since he passed a few years ago, three years ago, that I had that like one year like really getting to know him and he's such such a good man. So kind and so generous and like even after I left Christianity and I felt like nobody was supportive or in my corner. I don't know that he was necessarily in my corner but he never like turned you know his back on me. You know he was like checking with me. He always told me he loved me. He'd always send me money if I would needed it. So that was that was really special. Yeah, you know it's funny. That's a lot of memories for one year but I think that when you open up a chapter in a book and you pack it all into one thing you know like there's all these different chapters in your life. Just get to experience that. That's that's pretty amazing you know to have those memories. A lot of us don't you know. Did you go back to the mission field as a child or was coming back from Cameroon at the end? No, so we were living with my grandpa for a year and then he met a lovely lady and they got married a year later and so after he they got married my parents decided that it was safe I guess to leave him and they were reassigned by the mission to a different village in Cameroon in the French speaking area. So we went to Switzerland right after my grandpa got married and so they were doing French language study in Switzerland. I don't know why but that's where we went and I'm super grateful because that it was so you know my second grade year in the States was like one of the worst memories of my life and then Switzerland was like the highlight of my like early childhood. The first three or four weeks was really rough because they just plunked us in public school and we didn't know any French and we were just somehow supposed to like figure it out I guess. So that was a little tough but me and my sister both were fluent within less than three months I think and I made so many good friends in that school um a lot of the I guess I don't know if this is still true I'm sure it is even more so but at this time it was a pretty diverse place there were a lot of immigrants and um the little town to Chatelle before we were once what's going on. Amy sorry to interrupt but I I want to go back before your Switzerland story yeah what what's your so your what's your mom fairly close to grandpa I'm I'm asking you this because you don't remember your parents being particularly present in your own early childhood back in camera. Yes so mom seems like your mom made the extra effort to leave camera so that she could attend to her now alone dad at his wife died yeah I'm trying to understand the dynamics here because yeah yeah why would what was going through her mind that she would go back to attend to her father while when she was on the mission field she she was not attending to her own child. Well I don't know if I would say she was I mean maybe she wasn't attending to me but um yeah um she was very close to my grandpa so her and her dad were super super close um to the day he died um just the best relationship um I know this because and we'll get into a lot of this later um she would constantly be telling me Amy I wish you had a good relationship with your dad just like I had with my and I was like dude uh you should have married someone that was a better person then because um then maybe I would have had that chance but um yeah but he she was very very close to my um my grandpa not so much with her mom um like obviously she was devastated um when her mom died but I don't know that it was so much that they were close as just you know it's hard to lose your parent but again I don't I don't really know that this is just me speculating so yeah all right back to Switzerland I'm I'm freaking jealous because if you're gonna get sent somewhere as a missionary Switzerland sounds fricking rad right so cool yeah and it was like you know like yeah it's a beautiful country it's wonderful people public school there was like way different than going to public school in the United States where the United States was like all these rules and construction and sit and be quiet like Switzerland was like we have a recess every hour and like a two hour lunch break and like we went on field trips like every week like we went all over on boat rides and hikes and ice skating and skiing and cross-country skiing like I just had so many experiences I would never would have had as a missionary kid from Africa because of that one year in Switzerland. So yeah, I learned how to ski, I learned how to ice skate, I learned how to ski. I learned obviously a new language, made tons of great friends. And so yeah, it was just like, I can't think of anything. Well, no, I can think of one bad thing that happened. And I do need to add that in because it kind of goes with the storyline. So because of my abuse in early childhood, that had like sent me on a trajectory of masturbation, like chronic or compulsive, that's the word I want to work. Compulsive masturbation, which had mostly been hidden up until this point. And for some reason, you know, I'm nine, who knows why, what goes through my head, but I have a nine year old. So he's not thinking about it. I was like on the couch and I was masturbating and my dad walked in and freaked the fuck out. Like yelled at me, like totally demeaned me and then like sent me to my room. And I was like just in like shell shock. Like what the fuck, you know, like, I don't know if I knew if that was like, like taboo thing, like I had mostly kept it to myself. I mean, I'd learned it from my abuser, obviously, but he was something, yeah, that I kept to myself. And this was the first time that I was getting any sort of outside input on it. So my dad freaks out, yells at me, sends me to my room and then my mom comes and talks to me. And my mom's always been the like gentle compassionate one, even if misguided and she came in and she goes, Amy, I'm sorry. Like it's just it's a really simple thing to do and your dad got mad because he struggles with it and you know, it just like really. Oh my god. Yeah. And so from that moment, it was this battle that they had with me about trying to make me stop and they would try everything, you know, like hold your teddy bear and you go to sleep or pray more or whatever because you know, you can't like. I think the message I got was basically masturbation was sex and sex is wrong. I was so so ashamed. Like I had so much guilt around this habit that I really could I really felt I had no control over like it didn't matter what they told me or what tools they gave me to stop like I couldn't stop. Yeah. And then. Yeah. And how what's the age range again? Yeah. So that you know, that's that's pretty young. I mean, and I think that but but also like you're you're in analysts, you know, I mean, you're on your way. But like. Like that is so damaging. I just know, you know, from, you know, I don't know your experience. I know mine. When you're going through adolescence, you want to explore your body and especially if you've had abuse and in your those things have been awakened early in your life, like that's such it's such a. Normal thing. It's such a normal childhood thing to want to process that stuff, especially if you're going through a time where you're stressed and life is in. You're transitioning to new things and then to have all of that guilt and shame thrown on top of you and the knowledge that like oh, by the way, your dad does this too. It's like that's that's that's kind of fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a traumatic. The wording, the wording is quite peculiar. Your dad's struggles with it. Yeah. And we'll get. A married man cannot wait. Is that a problem? Yeah. Yeah. Let's get back to your story Amy because I feel like we have so much we can pontificate all day long. We all we all been in this kind of culture. We all get it. Okay. Okay. Okay. To all our listeners. It's okay to master. Yeah. I give you all free reign. Yeah. Go Cuban says it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking it's okay by only. I was not just okay. It's fucking great. Like Caleb said, I did. Okay. I did. Okay. That did you make me. No worries. Yeah. So, yeah. This was kind of the beginning of a very. I don't even know how to describe it. But. Very poor relationship with my dad and awareness. I think it's a good relationship. I think it's a good relationship to have. Of him. When I was little, the memories I do have of him are mostly good and happy. And he was, you know, he was good with little kids. But as like literally, I think it was at this point. Or as I hit out of lessons where. He. I think I'm a lot like him. In more way ways and just masturbating. But. I don't think he liked himself. I thought it's the conclusion I've come to. I think he despised himself. And seeing himself in me was horrible. And so he just, he just treated me horribly. But this year, I remember the first awareness. Maybe because of what. You know, this incident and what they told me about it. And I think it's a good relationship. And so I think it's a good relationship. - I'm sorry. - Yeah. - Helpful to hear perspective, you know, 'cause like it's my story and sometimes, and you tell it, or you replay it so much in your mind, or like do the messages that you receive, or whatever, you kind of like downplay and like, "Oh, well, maybe you made that up, or maybe you. " Maybe that wasn't what it was, or maybe it wasn't how it was, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - And especially because my mom, and I wanna be clear that my mom is a wonderful person, but her part in this was that she protected him, my whole childhood, and she constantly told me, just, you know, "Love her dad, forgive her dad." (mimics "Love her dad") and this comes up more later, but yeah. So I feel like there was a lot of, maybe I don't know if gaslighting is the right word, where I was almost made to feel like I was crazy. No, I was, I didn't feel like I was crazy, 'cause what I was seeing and observing was being contradicted by the words my parents were telling me, if that makes sense. - Mm-hmm. - Golly and I think deep inside of you, you knew what right, I mean, every kid has this deep sense, and it sounds like you have it of what's right, and what's wrong, what's fair, and what's hypocritical, and you know, yeah. - Yeah, and I guess I forgot to mention, but like, through all this, I mean, I was very dedicated to the Christian faith, although like, there were a lot of things that made me uncomfortable, and then that becomes more evident as I get older into my like, 10 years. I tried really, really hard, I did. I believed it 100% was fully in it. I did my very, very best, but I was just not, like, I'm a very strong, wild, outspoken, like, badass woman, and I was kind of that way as a kid too. So I didn't fit the mold of, you know, the perfect Christian woman. And as a kid, you know, that's not as obvious, you know what I mean? They're just a kid. But as, you know, so after we left Switzerland, we moved back to Cameroon, and we moved to a new village, Bafu, in the French speaking area. And this village was more, I guess you could say more modern, more developed, like the people there were very business-minded. They were a little bit more wealthy, wealthy for African standards, I should say. They all did like, agriculture and I had a father or a brother or someone who worked in the capital city and sent home money. And, you know, they were actually extremely wealthy people. And you know, there was, you know, people in their normal, like mudblock houses and stuff like that. But then there were like these mansions, like, of people that, you know, they lived overseas and they had their home back in the village. And it was just very fascinating. So there's a lot of Yemba people that have gone all over the world and done some pretty epic things. And so the, well, so my village is a big, big, big village. I can't tell you how many people, but it takes two, three hours to drive across on the dirt road. And it's broken up into these like, sub villages that we call Cartieres. And each Cartier has like a minor geosuit, and so the chief of our Cartier was a medical doctor for doctors without borders. And so he wasn't very often in the village, but he had, you know, he lived in the states. But he would come back often and he had a lot of money and a lot of education. And so he put a lot of money and education into our village, which was really kind of cool. And to this day, he'd done a lot for my village. But anyways, we moved there when I was nine. And this was my first kind of awareness that, I mean, I was aware earlier that I was different, but I still felt very at home and very accepted when we moved to the new village, even though we were back in Cameroon. Like I didn't know the language. I spoke French, so I could communicate with everyone who I'd been to school, 'cause I went to school in French, but I didn't speak Yemba. And I didn't know the people or the culture, I guess for reference in Cameroon. Cameroon has 260 tribal languages and separate different tribes and different cultures. So each tribe is very, very different from one another. So this culture was like completely different than the village and tribe that I grew up with. And I'm coming in as like this white girl, well, white family. And I felt very, very much like an outsider. So this was the first time I was like, I'm white. And I don't belong, but I feel Cameroonian. Why am I not being accepted? You know, everywhere I went, I'd be followed around by a trail of kids, you know, screaming white girl, white girl, white girl. And I really didn't like it, but I was like a really stubborn person. And I'm like, no, I'm Cameroonian. So I just bulldozed my way through it. And I just went out and I made friends and I tried to prove to them that I was Cameroon and I spoke French, so that was helpful. I have this really good soccer player. So I also forced all of the guys to let me play soccer with them, even though girls didn't play soccer. So I, and I made a really good friend, the lady that worked for my parents. Her son was a little bit like a few, I guess he's four years older than me. We became like the best of stuff friends. I'm seeing a theme here, but he and I played soccer all the time to stuff together. So I started to develop my little friend group. Like he accepted me when nobody else did. You know what I mean? Like I made some other things that were good, you know, but not like they saw me like they, you know, so everyone else was like, oh, they wanted to get something from me or oh, she's like a weird white girl or whatever, but he saw me, you know, he would stick up for me when I'd come to the soccer field and all the guys were like, oh no, we can't have a girl play any like, no, let her play. She's really good, you know? So transitioning into that village was really tough. At the same time, yeah, I was going back to home schooling. We had a tutor that had come out as a short term missionary. She was teaching me and my sister. And again, my sister also, unlike me, who was like, I'm just getting out there, you know? My sister still kind of just, she'll she'd stay home and she'd read a book or should, you know, do her little thing. So I was very, even though my mom always said me and my sister were best friends and maybe we were, you know, we were the only two people in each other's lives for like most of our childhood, but I very much had this like, go out and do things and she was very much like, Stacy at home. Yeah. But in this time period, you know, there were some good things that, you know, happened like my good friend and then, you know, started to build some really great friendships with other missionary kids at like, Park, homeschool co-op and at missions conferences, you know, I'm getting close with my, to be husband. I developed a really tight core group of girls in the missionary kid community that up until I left Christianity, we were fast friends, you know, all bridesmaids and each other's weddings and stuff like that. So it's a really good stuff there. But unfortunately at 11, 10, 11, you know, I started hitting puberty. I developed really fast. I was this tall, you can't see. I fully grown, 5/2 by the time I was 11, you know, double, triple D boobs, started my period. I looked like a woman even though I was still very much in my, you know, a child. And this brought on a lot of unwanted attention. And yeah, I'm not really sure how to like, really communicate this part, but there was just a lot of things. There's, I can't even just say like one story or like, this is what happened. It was like a constant daily struggle dealing with the fear of being raped. I was determined and intentional that I was going to go out and I wasn't going to be afraid and I was going to live life. But I was groped and molested and talked about and cat called and like some like gross, gross sexual comments that were said to me constantly. And in that, my perception, and I don't know if this is true exactly, but what I perceived in that culture was that as soon as those girls were women, they got pregnant. And it was to like see if they were fertile, and then they were married off. And then they took care of kids, babies and the farm and they were women. So I didn't have actually any friends that were girls because all the girls in my age were already having babies and taking care of their households. And I lived in pretty much constant fear that like I would be raped and get pregnant. And I wouldn't, I mean, I was a child, so my biggest fear was like I would be able to play soccer or something stupid. But also at the same time, I was getting all this intense, purity culture shoved down my throat at home where it's like, you know, be modest. And they're like, you know, not that my mom was trying to shame me, but it ended up being like that because I was so sexual. Like, I mean, I was a human, so I'm sexual, but like I was very fit and thin. And then I had this, you know, these big boobs and this big ass and like literally whatever I wore was going to be, you know, inappropriate. But I just remember my mom spending so much time on trying to make me modest so that I wouldn't make men stumble. The help, right. This is your responsibility. Because it's my responsibility. And so that's what I thought. Like I thought like if I go out into the world and something happens to me, it's my fault because I was my shortth or too short or my shirt was too tight or whatever. And like my aunt had sent us some like fun cute like American clothes ones. And we got them and I put on the shirt and my mom immediately freaked out. It was, I mean, it was just a t-shirt, but it was kind of like a spandexy interior and it was really tight on me. She was like, oh no, give that to your sister, you know. And I was just so like hurt because I was like, oh, I want a new cute shirt, you know. And the disheartening fact in all this is that in many parts of Africa, this is still an ongoing issue and also in middle east countries as well. The over sexualization of young girls. It's horrifying. How long ago. It was the same. But how long ago was the same? This would have been around 2000. 2000. Yeah. So two decades have passed and we still have child rights in middle east. We still have all these issues ongoing, but on top of all that Amy, you were forced to believe that the responsibility was yours. This is all sexual trauma. This is all like constant, constant, complex sexual trauma at a time where, and as if I'm telling you, like, you're going through adolescence and you're trying to figure out your own sexual identity and, you know, your own, you know, gender identity and holy fuck is that a lot for you to process? I am so fucking sorry. Thank you. Jesus. Thank you for your reflection. Like, I think it's nice to tell a story to someone, people who are like so aware. I think a lot of times people either that I talk to don't know what to do with my story or, you know what I mean? No, I mean, no, we need into it. That's just a problem. No one should do anything about your story. We just should acknowledge, sit and listen. I mean, as long as you do that. Yeah. And lean into it. We're just listening. Yeah. Sometimes listening and letting you talk is all that we can do, right? But, well, it, like, I know what it's like to be touched and grouped in public. But that happened to me at a really young age. And as I was going through adolescence, I, you've been to the Philippines. We're spoiling the, you know, part, leader part of the story here. You've been to the Philippines. You know, I'm 5'10. So I'm a giant. And that was 5'10 in eighth grade. And so like I did not, as a white male overseas, that stopped. You know, there were still inappropriate things that happened, you know, in bathrooms with, with older Filipino men. But like nothing even close to the constant sexual trauma and that you're describing here, that's fucked up. And this is an isolated Amy, you're not the first guest to mention the constant fear of being raped. Yeah. Yeah. I know this because I mean, at the time, nobody was talking about it. But later on in high school, there was a lot more, not those girls that started to talk about it. And that was a lot more awareness. But yeah. And I guess there's a couple of things I wanted to touch on. One was that, again, like where were my parents? Like, I know I was out, but there was like one kid, a guy that was a little older than me. And it was his job to come and pump water up to the water tower. So we'd have running water. And it was my job to go and give him that there was like a handle that it went on it. I don't want to do that. And she would just like be like, or my dad or whoever it was. Amy, you're being so disobedient. Like just go do it. But the reason I didn't want to do it was because every time I went, he would try to grab me or he would say something super offensive sexually. And often it was in French. And I don't think my parents French was as good as mine. And so I think they were kind of oblivious to a lot of it, not to like give them an out. But I don't think that I have to believe I think that they didn't see so much of this or they didn't want to see it. You have a phrase in English for this, you turn the blind eye. So I've always found that phrase peculiar, turning the blind eye. But it's, sorry, it's willful ignorance. It's willful naivety of what's going on. I think it was too hard to process. This is a conversation I will have to have my more in depth with my mom at some point. But when I brought it up to her years later, I was like, I think 28, 27, 28. Like she, I mean, took at least what she said, she had no idea. And she was heartbroken. But at the same time, I'm like, you lived there as a woman. You know what it was like, you know? And so maybe there was just like this like willful desire to believe that people wouldn't do that to children, you know? She is the one that's trying to cover you up all the time. She knew, you know what I mean? Like there's a reason why like, oh, you're going to attract attention and something bad is going to happen to you. She's trying to cover you up. And I just also want to acknowledge that like during this time period, you're an adolescent. You deserve to have during that time in your life. You deserve to be attracted to other people without fear of, you know, being sexually assaulted. Like you deserve to be like explore, you know, what makes me happy? Like what like what, what am I attracted to? What am I not? All of that is like clouded by the real fear of something really dangerous happening to you. Well, yeah, not only that, but fear of myself because okay, yeah, I'm developing my sexuality and I've, you know, already been abused and I'm struggling with masturbation still. And I have got like, and I still do the like sex drive of like, you know, a teenage boy, you know? And I don't know what to do with it because it's wrong, right? Like your sex drive is wrong. I had all these crushes on all these boys and I couldn't do anything about it because I was like scared of myself that like I would do, you know, do something impure, put on quote. And then flip side, these were mostly like missionary kid boys that I had crushes on because, my parents told me that I was not allowed to marry or date an African, which I just find like looking back like what? And like the reason they gave, and I'm hoping that it wasn't because they're racist, but the reason they gave was you won't be, you won't be able to understand each other's culture and really have like a fulfilling relationship. And from this perspective, looking, I'm like, excuse me, I am Cameronian. I am not American. So for you to tell me that I should date and marry a, you know, American or a white person, I'm half and half, maybe more. American but like there is no one that is going to really meet me where I'm at other than like another missionary kid from Cameroon you know what I mean like so anyway yeah I did have a crush on my best friend um there in the village I mean I never did anything um but yeah yeah because I was afraid I was like oh I'm not said host to like African guys um which is just crazy but um yeah and you also um said something about like exploring your sexual identity and all of that and yeah your gender identity yeah yeah um and definitely at that point I was like very much a tomboy I kind of I've talked to my my third son about this because um he's gender questioning and very fluid and stuff and I'm like babe you're so lucky that you live a in this time period and are raised by me because I was never given that option or even perspective like I knew I hated being a woman mostly because of all the bullshit that happened to me because of it um and I'm like I'm like really curious I don't I think I'm pretty content at this point of being a woman but I'm really curious if I had been allowed to express my gender the way I wanted to at that time you know where I would have ended up um because you know I was always outside playing mousok or always with boys like you know very tomboy clothes and behavior and all that stuff but yeah but that was that was kind of um the second chapter of my life so where are we right now are you a freshman or a sophomore yeah yeah this was um fourth through seventh grade was my turn in Bafu in the village oh you are still a middle school year you are still only barely what 12 13 14 around that age 13 and wow and you had to go there's so much shit yeah yeah that uh so one of our guests this week in Naja was um I mean she was in Ukraine and she went there around age 14 and you know very similar story related to male attention you know people saying I want to marry you or if I wouldn't marry it's like at that age that is so deeply deeply inappropriate and traumatizing to have you know 30-year-old men yeah I'm so sorry even more than 30-year-old men like oh Jesus and actually we didn't talk about this but my my dad would all like back in you know there's a bride price still for for women uh in Cameron and men would ask my parents all the time to marry me and my dad would jokingly say like oh well it's like three helicopters and I know that like mate might be funny but it kind of was like oh I'm worse that's what I mean if they came up with three helicopters would you marry me off to a seven-year-old guy like I don't know okay and I think it was his like culturally appropriate way of like protecting me like give such a high-bride price that no one will ever be able to pay it so they just kind of like laugh and walk away but I don't know I didn't appreciate it oh and yeah and then this time period yeah we didn't get back to my dad but things are not going well with my dad like we are fighting all the time like I'm realizing that like whatever he says is bullshit I think that's maybe just a teenager thing but it's also just like where I was at he was very a very very angry person I think I mentioned already that like I was a mirror I think for him of himself and I was I was confronting you know like when he would say things that I didn't think we're in line with like maybe biblical truth or just correct in general or you know he told me to do something that didn't think you know we should do I would stick up or stand up to him and you know my sister didn't do that I'm on didn't do that they were like you know they were my sister and my mom are very similar so my dad loved my sister and I never felt loved my dad like he was always yelling at me always anger with me for something spanking me for something maybe but is that love oh yeah yeah I loved your sister or loved himself right and that your sister was an extension of himself yeah so I don't think that's a love that you should envy you would be jealous of true I guess the thing on MBSO is that just like she has like a rose colored picture of what childhood was like you know I mean or what my dad was like and I like it's almost like we lived completely different life I mean but that comes at a price yeah I mean she's ignorant she's still in the church she's still yeah so it comes at a very high price I mean I am constantly battling this to do I want to pay the ultimate price for going out of the circle completely or do I still play that and stay ignoring I'm gonna limbo here but I'm projecting myself to you so Amy let's continue or can I continue I mean or do we want to pick up on part two because it's yeah that's our time is running sure yeah I feel like this is what we want to do I mean I feel like it's I'm good to keep going as long as you guys want to keep going but it sounds like you have an out human but this is a good like I guess breaking point because right after this I go off to boarding school so then that's like the next oh you're a boarding school kid where did you go to boarding school rain forest international school in what country in Cameron in Cameron yeah I think we had somebody else from that as well really oh yeah no are you sure we have someone from black forest but I'm not sure rain forest I got a think for a second okay I'm I'm I'm human you know me like I'm not I have unlimited time so it depends on how much how much time you've got left you oh so you don't have to wake up for something early tomorrow I do not know I can sleep in yeah oh okay yeah you can sleep in let's keep it's up to you but I mean yes up to me and I say this is a good parting point and we schedule you for another interview because yeah I don't I don't want to you know I don't want to miss the boat here because I feel like your boarding school story and I'm also particularly interested in what made you come back as a teacher to an any school maybe yeah so yeah that all process so we've covered 15 years of your life right now and we need to hear the next 15 years but yeah can we reflect for a second because yeah let's reflect like Amy so we've never had we've had few guests on who have been this candid with their their their their their sexual development but then also the way that you describe just your deep connection to to Cameroon and you know the the dirt roads and the piling on the motorcycle and all of these sorts of things I'm just kind of sitting here reeling with all of these it's like you can see it in my head but also I identify so deeply with your your just story of adolescents and sexual development and the confusion that's there even though you know it is a white woman in Africa I'm sure your experience is so different I just I have so much to think about tonight and I I hate winding things down but I want to hear the rest of your story and I want you to take your time and go slow I have to get going so I will see you guys yeah 24 hours okay okay I fucking hate humans sometimes he's gonna hear this he's gonna hear this because we're still recording right now stop the recording I love you cute but if I can hate you so last night we had a discussion and you know Amy was really walking us through all of these parts of her story that were clearly very critical for where the story is going all of these little elements You know, I you know both cumin and I felt like they're they're leading towards something and so we We had kind of a hard stop last night and so we needed to do a part two, you know sometimes Some we don't often do a part two, but it we just don't feel like Amy's story is gonna make sense unless we really get for the time So now this is about 24 hours later And we're we're going into part two so the last thing we went back and listened a little bit and Amy was just about to talk about boarding school going into boarding school And I'm excited to hear about that because you know, I was I was the big you know boarding schools to be part of my life so Amy, let's let's kick it over to you and If you can kind of pick up the story that would be fantastic Yeah, thanks for giving me extra time Big story I was actually talking to my partner about it last night and the same today and He's like how do you have that much to say because he doesn't remember any of his childhood Like that's you know his trauma created that right and I was like I just I remember everything and There's almost like I needed to remember it so that maybe someday you know could do this and I am writing a book about my Life as well. So that'll be more detailed for the future but When I woke up this morning I had just like four things that I feel like I missed from this period of my life so age 9 to 13 where I was living in Bafu One was I think we talked about you know how my relationship was with my dad and how horrible you know it was and just Yeah, we already talked about that but the what we didn't talk about was that at this point in my childhood I start to remember like my mom a lot more and she's a lot more present I think she enjoyed Me and my sister as we got like to be older like I don't think she really loved the little kids stage Which I totally get because I had I have four little kids and I'm much more enjoying as they you know The oldest is 11 and 10 and we're getting into those older years But yeah, so me and my mom became quite close like I remember a lot of Really deep long conversations at night, you know look at them You know starting to hit puberty and interpuberty and having all these emotions and big feelings and about everything and So we'd have really long long conversations at night I struggled with sleep and like Really like night terror type dreams and so In that time period I felt like she was a real huge support for me. She was I thought she was the best mom ever When I looked around I didn't think any other moms were doing it better From this perspective on the You know the grown-up side of things It wasn't just me sharing what was happening in my life and Confiding those things to her although I did not confide in her all of the scary Sexual harassment that was happening which I think it's really interesting and I don't know why I think I wasn't really aware at the time about how big of a deal it was It actually don't think I fully grasped how huge of how hugely impactful it was or how terrible it was until I was like I think I was like 22 or 23 somewhere in there. I was actually talking to a Friend of mine when I was in the Philippines and I just kind of flippantly told a story about My time in Cameroon and she just like looked at me with like tearing the headlights like what? And I was like yeah, that's just how it is and she was like no That's not how it should be and so that was like a huge moment for like oh So I don't know if in this time period I was really you know I was scared and I was having all these uncomfortable interactions and inappropriate You know things that were happening to me, but I don't know if I didn't know how to communicate that to my mom Or just yeah, I just don't know but the flip side of it was that she was also Inviting me a great deal about how the life was for her and the struggle she was going through and loneliness she was facing and At the time I didn't really think anything of it. You know, I'm a child. I only have one experience of what it is like to have a mom but Now as a parent I'm just like huh, that's a little inappropriate. I would never confide in my 10 11 12 year old about you know the struggles I'm having in my marriage or with my friends or You know emotional stuff like that. So In therapy as the years have gone by I've really realized like how co-dependent of a relationship me and my mom kind of created and This is an assumption. I have that I have not discussed with her, but I think you know my dad was not Not a good dad for sure And he was not a good husband and I think she was you know in a village alone with the nobody in her cultural You know same culture and it was hard to make friends and I Was her you know me and my sister were her best friends So that was really interesting. I just wanted to put that in there because I think it's important Then I also wanted to Mention my sister really briefly because I you know, I did say like she didn't go out much and I I felt a huge sense of like Responsibility for her because she was my younger sister And I think a lot of the reason that she experienced life Remember as time and camera and so differently Is large because I protected her from a lot of stuff, you know, I would take the hit or I would I was a very vocal and kind of aggressive Child and so things were going down like I was the one that would step in and Deal with that ish situation and one of the ways I dealt with this and I only actually put this together recently. I became obsessed with like fitness and sports Not only because I had a learning disability that was undeniable at the time So I didn't feel like I excelled at school So but because I was really good and I loved Sports and fitness, but I would like I trained myself. I don't know any 10 11 12 year old that like Trains and themselves to be like physically like so superstar like For recess. I would jump on my bike and I would ride miles and miles and miles and fast I couldn't have time myself and make sure I was really fast and I would come home I do like a million set ups and a million push ups and a million pull ups and Yeah, just this huge need to like be incredibly strong and fast. I was really really fast and um, you know, some of that was just like I enjoyed it and now looking back and also like oh I did that to make sure that I was always the fastest and the strongest So that if something went down nobody would hurt me Or I could get away and protect myself um Yeah, there was that and then um I guess not really in the same vein of thought but I did want to mention it at this time um, me and my sister became little entrepreneurs. We had our own chickens that like laid eggs and We sold those eggs to my parents and we had rabbits and we would sell the babies to um other villagers and It was about completely our own thing like we paid for the feed and the hat, you know, their shelter and All this kind of stuff anyway, and this sets me up for it was like my first entrepreneurial experience and we haven't gotten to it yet But um, I have been an entrepreneur for most of my adult life Um, and it was just a really lovely experience in the village to like just have all of that possibility and freedom and um ability to sort of create these tiny entrepreneurial endeavors That kind of wraps up my yeah, yeah, I just wanted to say related to that um uh That was at a Microsoft conference recently in um, there was a individual there from oh, I think she was from new Uganda But she said um, you know in Africa it's not like you just go down to General Motors and get a job and work at the rest of your life like you have to become a small business owner You know, you have most people just are entrepreneurs, you know, and they they make money and so There's just this very strong entrepreneur mindset um Because of the you know that that's what people do to support themselves, you know and uh, uh, uh, you know So how do we you know how do we harness sad um anyway? So I think you have that mindset right? Yeah Yeah, yeah So yeah um that's the end of seventh grade and actually so it was not my intention intention uh my parents intention to send me to boarding school until I was in ninth grade But as we approached uh eighth grade They, well for one, the school, reinforced international school had recently added seventh and eighth grade to their school. I think that pretty good here. So growing up, that wasn't an option, but now it was. And my best friend, my sister and I's best friend, her parents were the boarding home parents for, well, we had like, so, I know Fates Academy has like different boarding homes on campus, the way our rainforest worked was they had hostels that were run by the specific mission organizations. So our mission organization, along with the other two Baptist missions, had a hostile and my best friends, parents were the hostile parents. And they, I think my parents realized that, you know, and there were a bunch of other kids, you know, a year ahead of me that were already starting boarding school. And my parents realized that the year that I would have started ninth grade, most of those families that I knew from our mission were all going on furlough at the same time. And so they asked me and my sister if we wanted to go a year early so that we could get used to being in boarding school with people that were familiar with, you know, my best friends' parents, who, you know, have grown up with since we were babies. And so yeah, it's interesting. Like I don't know if I was aware before that, that that was the trajectory of where we were going, that we were going to go to boarding school. But I remember them giving us that choice in that moment, which I think is kind of amazing, because I know a lot of kids did not get any kind of choice when it came to school, but our boarding school. But yeah, me and my sister said that we wanted to go early. We were kind of excited as far as like, it seemed like, oh, we're going to go hang out with our friends all the time. So yeah, we went off to boarding school in eighth grade. I was in eighth grade. My sister was in seventh grade. And yeah, that was a rough transition, as I'm sure it is for most people. Even though I did have a large-- there was at least three or four families that I'd known most my life that were-- their kids were there. But yeah, I missed the village, I missed home, I missed my mom. I missed my friends back in the village. I missed the freedom of the village. boarding school was like kind of like another experience of like what second grade was, where you like, why are there all these rules? And why is there room in being so controlling? And after so much excessive freedom to do whatever I wanted. And I struggled with school. School's really hard. As I said, I have a learning disability. It's a tracking disorder. But it was unannounced at this point. So eighth grade was really, really tough. I'm learning how to go to classes for the first time. I've been homeschooled most of my life. Trying to make friends, learn how to do that in this new kind of culture, where most of the kids are Westerners. We had a few Canadians, but not that many. That first year, I just remember it being hard. Mostly just a rough transition. But I made some good friends. And I was really excited about the opportunities, like with sports. I got to be on the soccer team. And there was intramurals. And like, you know, I was already so obsessed with sports. And I quickly, quickly, quickly made a name for myself. Me and my sister both were both very athletic. Even though we were seventh and eighth graders, like 11th and 12th graders would come and like ask us to be on their intramural team, because we were so good. So I found a lot of joy in the sports aspect. So that was the first year. And in the second year, some-- my dorm parents left it on for a little, along with all my lifelong friends. So that was again another transition. I had new people in the dorm, new roommates. So that first year, it was me, my sister, and my best friend were roommates. And then the second year was a girl. I'd been in-- she'd been my class in eighth grade. And she moved into the dorm with us that year. And then another new girl I'd never met. And so yeah, this is just a whole new transition in my parents. Or the people voted in or who volunteered. I'm not sure which one to be dorm parents for the-- or hostile parents. We call it hostile. I always say dorm now, because people understand that better. But hostile parents that year. So that was kind of a-- I moved away from my parents. How did I use to that? And then now they're back. Or they've come down here. And now they're parenting me and my sister. And these 10 other kids. Yeah, I mean, that's just a whiplash transition. That's such a formative time. And just given everything that's happened in your life, so far, to have more disruption during a time where so much is changing for you. You mentioned adolescence, but new social group, new everything. That's a lot to navigate. Yeah. And being in-- Alone. Being in the capital city on a very dangerous-- it's where the village was terrifying in its own ways for sexual harassment was concerned. At least there was some check and balance or accountability because everyone knew everyone and everyone knew me. In the city, there was no one checking anybody. If we weren't allowed to walk by ourselves, but even if it was me and two other girls walking home from school, we could be followed and harassed all the way home by a group of like 10 guys who knows what I used to do about that. So yeah, I was-- I didn't like Yom Day at all. I still not a fan. I went back this last summer. And it has holds a lot of memories, but African cities are not my favorite place. The village is amazing. My village is in my second village-- both of them. But my second village especially was up in the mountains at like 4,000 feet. And it was cool, like 60 to 80 degrees year-round and beautiful and lush. So the city's just like polluted and dirty and gross and loud and full of scary people. So yeah, it's the ninth grade. My parents are dorm parents. And actually, so I was nervous about it because I'm like, oh my god, how's that going to go? And then all the kids just loved them. I think this was the role that my parents were born for, because they did such a good job as far as I can tell. Kids loved them. My dad was in his element. I've never seen him so happy. Just goof around with all the guys, teenage guys. Maybe he always wanted to send it. I don't know. But yeah. So it was an interesting year. So all the years kind of blend together, but I kind of think of what's super important about this year. Did that surprise you? I mean-- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, who are these people? Yeah. Yeah. They were less strict than my friends' parents. I think that was the other thing. So people who had been in the dorm with the other couple and then transitioned to my parents. My parents were pretty like-- Yeah. I don't know. How do you-- you mentioned before that things had already broken with your dad. But then you're seeing him just in his element with all these other kids. You know? How do you internalize that as a kid? No, this is a good question. I don't know if I've actually processed that before. Because I don't remember a whole lot of horrible things with my dad that year. Does that make sense? We didn't have a huge blow-ups. Maybe it was just like-- there was no other kids distracting him. I don't know. It's also a pretty common thing with narcissists to be super shitty at home. But then in the community in front of other people, when they're coaching the basketball team, it's like, whoa, your dad's the best dad ever. But that's not who he is at home. Oftentimes, they're better at parenting other children than themselves because they're getting credit for it. And people see it and they get recognition for it. Yeah. I think that's very true. Because you asked anyone in my village, and they'll say, my dad is amazing. Oh, I was such a capacitor, such a good leader, whatever. blah, blah, blah. but I'm like, okay, you should have seen him at home. But yeah, this year, so two major things I think that stand out to me, I became very, very close to my two best friends, sorry, my two roommates. So that has been lifelong friendships. One of them, I am still very, very, very close to, we talk all, yeah, at least once a month, even now, she's also deconstructed Christianity a few years after I did, and so that really bonded us. And I started dating someone for the first time, so I got my first boyfriend. He also, we had mixed pastels, so we had like five, I mean, five curls and five boys that year. And one of them, he'd been in my dorm the year before as well, just in friends, and then at a hostile retreat in the beginning of the year, we kind of connected. I got to crush on him and we started kind of, I don't know, like, how do you go out when you all live together and go to school together? And you're not allowed to kiss or have sex or anything like that. But we were, you know, a cute little couple and I actually dated him throughout my entire high school experience. He was, for the most part, like a really good first boyfriend. I thought I was gonna marry him. Yeah, so that was like a highlight of my ninth grade year and then probably the low light was, I think it was spring break. See, it was one of the breaks, I don't know which break. I woke up in the middle of the night and my parents were like, so we were in the dorm, but no, the other kids were there and my parents were like, all the lights were on and everyone was freaking out. My sister's throwing up in the bathroom. My mom's crying, they're calling like a doctor and I'm like, what the fuck is happening? And I don't think anyone told me in that moment what was happening. They were, they, whoever was on the phone, missionary doctor was like, give her charcoal, make sure she throws up, make sure she throws it all up. And later on, I don't know when my mom finally brought me to, you know, into the loop, but I guess my sister had downed a whole bunch of malaria perplexes and tried to kill herself. And yeah, that was a really intense thing to go through. Like in my mind, my sister was perfect. Like, you know, she was the perfect daughter. She got amazing grades. She was super popular, had tons of friends. She was, you know, athletic, on worship team, like all the things, you know, I spent a lot of my childhood being jealous of her because she was like that perfect Christian girl, you know? And then I was just like, what? And why are you trying to kill yourself? And I guess. So, Amy. Yeah. This goes back to my point about you saying, you thought your dad loved you. I loved your sister. And I had commented, but what's that love? So, you know, love that isn't love ultimately hurts the other person, which I think contributed to your sister attempting to so I said, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And unfortunately, I don't have a lot of insight to this. It's not something that my sister and I ever really talked about. I remember my feelings. I was angry. I was like, how dare you? How dare you be perfect and then try to end your life and then cause all of this drama and upheaval and whatever. And because of this situation, my parents decided not to be continued to be dorm parents. They pulled us out of the dorm. They moved down to Yon-Dai and we spent the next three years living with them in the city. So I was pissed. I don't have to have to have to. I feel bad that I was pissed. I think I should have had a little more compassion. But like from my child, you know, adolescent perspective, it was my sister's fault that I had to now transition again to living with my parents in the city where I kind of got used to living in the dorm. All my friends were there. My boyfriend was there. Like that was now my new normal and my new home, right? Do you still talk to your sister? Are you still on your way to here? Yeah. And we're not out in a relationship, but very rarely. Probably like, she'll call me once every three months or so. We'll talk about the kids. Yeah, that kind of stuff. She's still in religion. She's married to a priest and their future-to-planetting. So priest? Anglican? Yeah, Anglican. Okay. I will say just the only insight I have into that is that we've interviewed so many people. We've interviewed so many people we went to high school with. And you know, you just don't know what people's lives are like beyond the performance that they're putting on. We've interviewed so many people who thought, oh, you're so popular, you had everything together. And they were just falling apart inside. And then other folks who say, oh, I had a really great experience. And you know, and sometimes that surprises me too, because it seemed like, you know, I had a perception that they were having a really hard time. I think that, you know, just thinking back to the person that I was, I don't know that I was really paying attention. I was paying more attention to myself and trying not to look like an idiot, you know, you know, what I mean? Like, you're just so self-focused. And you kind of think about everything in relation to you. So you notice other people doing things, but in relation to how does this impact me? Okay. That thing happened. Now I don't get to hang out with my boyfriend on campus after hours, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Everything is in relation to yourself. Yeah. And I think that's a normal teenage thought, right? It's like everything's not me. But especially with all those transitions and all that trauma, you, we were all very self-focused because we're just trying to survive the next change. Cumin, sorry, I cut you off. And this is what's so tragic that all the trauma that we experience certain ourselves into people, because of survival and this, we don't have to wear results to get attention to others. And this is a very serious issue. So aside as no laughing or deal, but Amy in your mind, what was important was that you missed out. You're missing out on living in that. Yeah, one of the feelings you had, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were angry at your sister rather than thinking, how shitty must have her life been for her to take such drastic measures? Yeah. And the best thing about the NK life is that, yes, we went through trauma and it doesn't end there. Sometimes trauma can turn us into self-centered, shitty people who don't give up up about others. And I mean, it takes a long time to go out of that mindset. I don't know how long I've only thought about myself. I guess it was going to my late 20s until I met my wife and I'm a little my own. I didn't care about others. I had all really not much compassion, not much grace. It was everyone else's fault. Everyone was responsible for their actions kind of thing. But now I realize there's much more complex than that. Life is much more complicated than that. Yeah. That's what we're talking. Yeah. Well, and I do know that whatever was either communicated to me, whether it was my sister or my mom, was that my sister just felt like this overwhelming crushing feeling of needing to be perfect all the time. And I think that's what led to that. So we went on a three months furlough that summer. Hopefully for my sister to go to counseling or for us to go to family counseling. And that, oh my god, that summer. I actually didn't remember it till just now. It was horrible. I hated it. I was probably the worst bitch on earth. So many attitude problems. But my dad didn't make it better. So my dad was so great at the dorm. And then this summer, it was just like back and full force, like angry, abusive, gross, like just bad temper. Everything. was let out on me. And we were in Georgia and California, which I don't even know why we're in furlough there because it's not any of our home bases because my mom's from Nebraska and my dad's from Ontario or my dad's family's from Ontario. But yeah, I just remember like my mom, well, we had to go to family therapy and I hated it. And I remember the one session I had with a therapist on my own, I kind of just like sat there with my arms crossed like, fuck you, can't make me say anything, you know. So super helpful for me anyway. And my mom is like desperately trying to like manage everything, right? Make everything perfect, make everyone happy. So she's like, oh, Amy, you and dad should go to six flags together and have some daddy daughter bonding time. And I was just like, I mean, I want to go six flags. So yeah, I'll go, but I'm not going to enjoy it, you know. So I don't know, this is an interesting perspective. I'm just having right now that like, yeah, my dad is like, has been a terrible dad and there's no excuses there. But also, I also didn't give him any breaks at all. I was just determined to be difficult and mad and, you know, let him know how he should be a parent he was being. So yeah, that was that summer. We came back, we moved into a house in the city, that was a home transition, like learning how to, I'm going to a boarding school, but I'm not boarding, you know. So that was interesting. I'm trying to figure out like, the next three years are kind of just like, they kind of all mushed together. You know, I dated my boyfriend until he he was a year ahead of me until he went off to college my senior year. And continue to have good friends, I excel. I did okay at school. I didn't do great. I finally got diagnosed with my learning disability. I got the help I needed, support and, you know, special ed classes and stuff like that. Which helped, but I also felt stupid. Like, I don't know what it is about missionaries, but they seem to just breed geniuses. So I'm just like surrounded by all these geniuses. And then the school was very much of a prep school, like high achiever, very like, yeah, just there was a lot of pretty missionaries don't breed geniuses. They breed people who have to who are performing all the time. Humans under extraordinary conditions perform exceptionally well. And so we're under pressure constantly to perform. And so that's how mission your MK seem to do well academically, but aside from that, all other areas of their life suffers for it. So yeah. And I think this is an aspect of the MK life is not in really well documented or studied. Why do MK excel at the end of the year? That's a very interesting perspective. I appreciate that because my only conclusion has been like, you know, because so many of the missionaries in camera and were Bible translators, I mean, well, their parents are Bible translators. So they have to be pretty smart. So maybe that just genetically, they all ended up smart. But yeah. Amy, and you were a phenomenon because you said yourself, you were super fit, super strong, you're super disciplined. So in that area, you had an exceptional gift. You were a gifted child. You have to realize that you are gifted in another sense. And they in the MK world, in the MK setting, too much emphasis is given on the academic area. You just exalt otherwise. And you said yourself, you may not have done great, but you did okay. You did. I really did. And like, from that perspective, like the perspective there, I didn't seem to do a well, but I mean, I got bees and low a's. Like I really did do fine, especially considering the arduousness of, yeah, that's really good. That's really good. And I bet there's a part of this story where you go to US school and you like crush it or something like that. Or you know, that this good, I know that's coming. But also I Bible translators tend to be nerds. Come on. And that means that a lot, unlike a lot of schools in the US, most everyone, most every parent, at least as a college degree, many of them have a graduate degree. And there is just a lot of academic pressure. I mean, if they had the academy, they had to end the way that they were doing national honors society, the way that they were awarding it, because students were contemplating suicide. If they if they didn't get in, and it's like, oh my god, no one ever, a national honor society, come on. That's a joke, you know? Okay, back to your back to your story. We keep it erupting you. Yeah, I know. I was at that moment to get more wine. But yeah, but I think that brings me to just the boarding school experience in general. I don't know if I have like maybe some specific stories will come out, but the overall feeling was just this insane pressure to be perfect at everything. Be perfect. I mean, top priority be perfect at grades. Well, no, that's not top priority. Be the perfect Christian. Like go to all your chapels, be in small group, be having a accountability partner, read your Bible every day, go to Bible class, like just like Christian Christian Christian Bible, Bible, Bible, Bible, Bible, you know? And like all these like so much focus on just like forcing kids into this very specific Christian mold. And I've like kind of contemplated this for a while. And I feel like a lot of and as a teacher, Adam missionary kid school later in life, I can see this as well, where the teachers and administration are and boarding home parents are given responsibility of these missionary kids children, right? Missionaries children. And they're, you know, the missionaries are like their job is to evangelize people. And like the school's job is to make sure all these kids stay Christians, you know what I mean? So that like their job won't have been for, you know, nothing. So I think that's from like that's the like, aware perspective, but as a child, I did not have this awareness. And I was just like, it's just so much like, you know, shame and control and manipulation maybe even, you know, like especially when it comes to like dress code, like, you know, faith academy has a uniform, but we did not have uniforms. So especially the women, the girl's dress code was so nitpicky, you know, like if you even showed like a tiny bit of middrift when you put your hands above your head or, you know, your shorts were half an inch too short, you got sent to the principal's office. And they gave you like the ugliest clothes to wear for the rest of the day, you know, so everyone knew that you had been slutty and, you know, we're causing men to stumble, you know. Oh, Amy, so, you had a dress code when you went as a teacher? I mean, how did that beautiful? Yeah, they've had new uniforms. Oh, it's been a while. Which creates some. Yeah, which helps in some ways. It didn't help in others because girls are bound to like roll their skirts and hem up their hemlines and there was still dress code to police, but there was some consistency across the board. It's rehabbed at dress code when we went to play and it was nitpicky as well. Yeah, so super nitpicky. That was one thing, you know, the other thing that was super highly managed was like boy girl interaction. So like, I, you know, I don't think I actually targeted me and my mom, my mom daughter retreat one weekend when we were on furlough. I guess I must have been in like 16 or so. And she, I don't know if you know the book Passport Depurity. It's like, I have that with this treasure. Yeah, I don't recommend it, but anyway, went through it at the time because I'm so dedicated to being a good Christian girl. I really did try. I really, I was trying my best. I just was not built for that. I don't know, but we went through this together and it was like all about like saving yourself from marriage and being the most pure woman you can be and that it does. So I, you know, I wrote out my commitments for like what I was going to do to save myself for marriage and at that time, I don't know if it was, I mean, the book definitely sets you up to like make the most strict commitments possible. I don't know if everyone does that, but I took it very seriously and I was like, I'm going to be back. I'm not kissing anyone until I get married, you know? So that was the, that's where I landed on all of that. However, I was also this like incredibly sexual person and I had a long-term boyfriend in high school and it was a massive, massive struggle. You know, I'm still struggling with masturbation as well. And again, obviously we know now it's not a struggle, it's just a normal thing, but like I was very distressed about it. I was also experimenting, well I didn't realize I was experimenting, but I was experimenting with girls because I couldn't like, you know, what do you call it? I wasn't getting very sexually frustrated with my boyfriend because we weren't allowed to do anything. And when I did do something like, you know, heavy petting or something like that, I had like mountains and mountains of guilt around it. And I would go tell my mom and it was like a whole thing, you know, just tons of guilt and shame around my sexuality and just like super highly frustrated because I just had this roaring sex drive and nowhere to put it. But you know, I didn't know anything about like, homosexuality or I don't know if I hadn't been, somehow that whole thing escaped me. And I just was like, oh, well, if you're grinding on a girl or you know, petting a girl or whatever, like that's not wrong, right? 'Cause they're a girl. (laughs) So I did a fair bit of that. And I didn't realize it at the time that I was by, I didn't come to that conclusion till much later, which is really funny. I just thought this is what girls do, you know? Like we snuggle and cuddle and touch each other and, you know, play with each other boobs. That makes sense, right? Yeah, so that was kind of the ask. - As long as it's consensual, yeah, it is fine. (laughs) Like that's the only, that's like not the only role, but that is like the main rule that you had to worry about. Other than that, I mean. - Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was consensual. (laughs) - Yeah, and you know, developmentally, is it developmentally appropriate, right? That's the, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, but yeah, that definitely by. (laughs) - Yeah. - Really by, yeah. - Yeah, very like, you know, a lot, I don't know how much to go into, but just a lot of my like fantasy world and like I hadn't discovered porn yet, 'cause like there was no internet and no, whatever. But yeah, it was very much wrapped up in women. So I would say I'm more like 70, 80% gay and 30% straight, but you know, like culturally speaking, you're supposed to be with men, right? So, I know I did love my boyfriend very, very much, very, very attracted to him as well. So, yeah, that was like my most, the boarding school experience, just a lot of, yeah, when we got into wealth grade, I was a little more, you know, again, another transition, you know, like my boyfriend had left, a lot of my good friends, so one of my roommates, that was my really good friend. She had graduate also, another friend was a year ahead of me, she graduated. So I was kind of left with like a dwindled friendship group, my senior year, but I threw myself into, I was obsessed with like being the best role model that could ever be, that I was gonna be remembered for years and years to come. I was gonna be one of those kids that like other people talked about, like, oh my God, this guy who was like, you know, worship team leader and captain of the soccer team, like I was like, I wanted to be that person, you know, I was like 10 years down the road, they should still be talking about Amy Julius, that's my main meaning. But yeah, so I was, and I had been, a captain of the soccer team, I played all the seasons of sports, I was the coach, actually 11th and 12th grade, I was the coach for the middle school girls soccer team 'cause they couldn't find a adult, and I was like, well, that's unacceptable, they have to have a team, so I will coach them. So I did that, it was also a TA teachers assistant for one of the PE teachers, which I loved, it was so great, and it just sets me up, actually, for my future career. So I really leaned into like my talent in sports and teaching, and I learned a lot about myself, my senior year, despite like kind of the upheaval of things changing, and then also like coming up on this huge transition of like, oh my God, like, I'm gonna have to leave here, but originally, I was gonna actually stay for an extra year in Cameroon and wait for my sister to graduate from high school. And so as we're approaching the end of this chapter, I have to go back and kind of revisit what's been happening with my dad. So during this period of time, while we're living with them in the house near school, my dad is still working with a church planting in our village, so he would go back and forth up to the village for periods of time, and we were left alone with my mom quite a bit. But when he was in town, it was still a lot of tension and arguments and stuff, which mostly arose from his hypocrisy in telling me that I had to be this pure modest woman, and I would see him like checking women out on the road as we drove by, like very, very obviously, and this would happen constantly. And then, I think it was 17. Yeah, I think that was 17. I was, our living room was kind of, there was like a little tiny divider where we had like the computer and little office space. And then there was the living room in the TV. And I was doing work on the computer for school and I guess my dad didn't know I was there. And he flipped on the TV and I don't even know how he accessed this material because I didn't even know it existed. But yeah, I caught him or I saw him watching porn and I'd never seen porn before. And I know, like now to me, like porn is not a big deal, but at the time, it was like the most devastating, appalling experience that I could ever, like it's super dark, like super dark. And I just like hid there, like frozen, not knowing what to do until like it went away, right? And eventually went up to my room crying, my mom came in and like, why are you crying? I didn't want to tell her, you know, like, but she was very persistent, you know, through high school. I mean, my mom still continued to have like a really close relationship on top to her about everything. And I, yeah, so I told her. And obviously that was devastating for her. I watched her completely melt down. And I mean, you really, really angry and really pissed that like my dad could do something so hypocritical and so hurtful to my mom because I loved her a lot. And I didn't think my dad deserved her at all. I still don't. And yeah, that was, you know, between like observing him doing these kind of like sketchy things and then seeing that coming to the towards the middle or end of my senior year, my mom, I just remember my mom constantly, like, wailing in her room. Like her room was right next to them, oh, their room was right next to mine. I just heard her crying all the time. And eventually they, you know, got me and my sister together and said, hey, were like, I guess they had asked my sister, although I don't really believe they asked my sister, I'll have to check in with her. But, you know, they were like, we're going to leave Cameron early after Amy graduates. Katil do her senior year in the States. And the reason is, you know, me and your dad need to go to therapy. And at the time they had referenced that it was because he was a porn addict. And I can't even describe to you how pissed I was, you know, like, yes, my time had semi officially ended, you know, like that was my senior year. I was closing it out, but I had expected to have another year. I was going to stay at school and, you know, help teach. and coach soccer and work at the orphanage, because I had been doing that as well, working at the orphanage. And I had this whole plan, you know. And now it was all ruined. And I was being torn away from my home a year early. And so, and I don't know, this is something I've sort of thought about recently. Like, why is it that I had to leave? I was 18, like why was I being forced to leave? But I just kind of like went with it, you know, like, they're my parents, they say, what's up? Like, so I guess we're going back to the States. - What a gross way to confirm everything you already knew about your dad that he was a creep. Like, it's just such a moment of like, like you are the person that I knew you were. But what an ungodly, terrible thing for a child can have to go through to finally confirm what they already knew. - Yeah, especially when he was a creep. Like, the mom was like, oh, sorry, go ahead. - No, just a so sad and tragic, for the simple fact that your dad is not a low incident. - Yeah. - What were you saying Amy? - I mean, he's not, your Amy's dad is not a low incident. He's not somehow a liar. It's a special case of his own. This is a repetition that's been going on for decades and declares. And this is a story that we are way too from another word. And it is still continuing. - Oh. - Yeah. Amy, you were about to say something. Oh, just that like my mom, even in this period, like she was heartbroken. I know she was like just dying. But even in that, she was, I don't even, I mean, it wasn't specifically this period, but definitely the constant message I had from her over life was, Amy, try harder with your dad. He loves you. Like, have a good relationship with him. Like try harder. You know, and I was just like, I, I felt like I was being told I was crazy for the things that I was seeing and observing, you know, like, well, if you want me to like, I don't know, I don't know how to, I, - It seems like it's on your dad. Like the pressure should be on your dad to repair that relationship. We're trying to figure out how to move forward because he's the adult and he's the offender. It's not on you. It's not your job to do that. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. So yeah, leaving Cameron was heartbreaking. I didn't want to graduate. I somehow thought that like, if I didn't walk down the aisle, they couldn't make me leave. So I did a little tender tantrum and like, head right before graduation. And some friends had to come. I had broken up with my long-term boyfriend. I was dating a new guy that year. And so him and this other girl in my class came and down me and they were like, I was like, I can't go in. I can't. If I walked down the aisle, they're gonna make me leave. And they were like, you're gonna have to leave anyway. You know, so you may as well get your diploma. And I was like, okay, right. So they talked me off the ledge there. And I got my diploma graduated. And yeah, I think someone this is like really fresh because I just went back home for the first time this last summer. And like the airport hasn't changed at all. And I just was flooded with like all these memories of like sitting in the little cafe, like waiting and waiting for like the time when it was like, now you have to leave. And all my friends were there to like see me off. And I just cried all the way like up desk later through security like and for some reason the camera in airport has like 12 security checkpoints. So I'm just like, I don't even give a fuck. Like I'm just bawling my eyes out like through this entire process and then I bawled my eyes out like wailing. I'm sure like everyone on that flight hated me. Like I bawled all until I passed out. I think it was several hours on the flight up to Switzerland. And I passed out and slept most of the way. And my graduation present from my parents was a three week trip around Europe right after we left Cameron, which is super sweet of them. And like we're in this like horrible, horrible places of family where like I hate my dad. I don't want to like even speak to him. I've left my home. I've left my friend, my boyfriend like, yeah, going into this like completely unknown space. So he listened to say like it was, it was very lovely. I'm so grateful that I got to see, you know, a lot, you know, six different countries in Europe during those three weeks, but it was not fun. Very angry. - We just numb. I mean, you've got to be just numb at that point. - I was surprisingly not numb. I was really angry and I was really sad. I spent a lot of time yelling at my dad like anything he would do. Like it didn't matter if it was like, warranted or not, you know, like he picked the wrong, I don't know, bus stop or whatever. And I just like blow up and crying a lot. It's been a lot of time with like my headphones on, listening to like mixed tapes from my boyfriend like, just trying to like zone everybody else out. The one like highlight I remember was like we visited my aunt, married to Germans, so she wasn't Germany. So we did some camping with them and hiking, which was really fun. And then when we were in Venice, my parents like, for some reason let me and my sister go off and explore the city by ourselves. And this was like before, I mean, and kind of cell phones or anything, but I'm kind of grateful because that's like the highlight, like when me and my sister got to just kind of be adults for the first time and do things by ourselves. That was really nice. Yeah, so that was our transition point. And then we like came back to the States and my parents picked Chicago to land in. I know there was some logic around it. My mom's from Nebraska, my dad's family was living in Ontario. They quoted that this was halfway between the two families. I think it was also close to the therapist that they had chosen. And what else? Oh, some really good family friends that were missionaries and Cameron with us also lives in the area. So yeah, we arrived in that kind of, I don't know, I feel like we should pause here. Like that was the end of that chapter. Yeah. I mean, what a tumultuous high school experience, you know, I mean, and not just the really intense academic pressure, but just every year it sounds like there were just all of these major changes. And you one thing that you mentioned was that as you went through high school, your friend group seemed to peter out a little bit, you know, a lot of them went back to the US. And you know, so you're just feeling, well, I don't know. It seems like you just feel more and more alone as you're getting towards going back to the United States. Yeah. No wonder you had a little nervous breakdown, you know, going down the aisle, right? Like everything was ending every, every ounce of stability that you would ever had or experienced was about to be gone forever. Yeah. Well, and I'd watched all the other classes ahead of me do it, right? Like watch them graduate, watch the pain, watch the tears, watch, you know, gone to the airport with every single person that left and, you know, had that heartbreaking moment over and over and over, you know, and I know it's almost like knowing your own execution date, you know? Like now it's my turn to go to the airport and watch everyone cry as they leave. And yeah, like every year, every year, it was just like all these people left or any other new people who come, new teachers, new this, and it's the same at, I think, all the many missionary kids schools. It was similar when I taught at Pate the Academy, like every year, it was just a huge turnover and transition, you know? Yeah. And on top of that, I'm sorry, I killed I talked over you. No, on top of that, you were planning to stay in addition one year. And so graduation, right? And press for us, but your plans have been cut short, short, short, fit. And your parents are in the middle of a huge marathon. Up low, blow up. So everything one on top of another. And so it's just the hay on the camel's back. It's not just the graduation we're talking about. It's not just a graduation. And there were a lot of things that you talked about related to your high school experience that were incredible. I mean, very many experiences. You know, and you're leaving Cameroon, which is your village as well. So I'm sure that it wasn't just leaving high school. It's leaving. You've talked the way that you describe your village and your life there. You know, that's going away too. You would already been losing that being in the city. And so, you know, I just resonate to that loss. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I mean, I don't, I don't relate, but I kind of get the feeling because when I left faith, I didn't feel like I lost anything. So I had a relief in that. For myself, or leaving. I'm kind of in a difference five. Yeah. I've heard multiple stories. Yeah. I get where you come from. For sure. Yeah. And I think there were some classmates of mine that felt similar to you. Like, oh, my God, I think God, it's over. You know. And there was some aspects that I don't know if I fully appreciate at that time that like, okay, like the control and the like that this really intense, like religious bubble is over. But yeah, I did, I did spend a lot of time going to like all the different places. I went back home to the village. I saw all my friends. I took pictures of everything. I got documented everything thoroughly knowing that I left because I mean, we had some, some education at that point about like transition and all of that. And so I knew what was coming out. I was doing my best as I did with everything. I really tried to be the best person I could be. With what I knew, I tried to do the transition as good as I could, you know, like make amends and say goodbyes and like to places and people and things. And yeah. There was another thing that I thought I was forgetting, but it'll come to me eventually. But. Yeah. Oh, I think, oh, it's not, it's not a huge thing, but related to my act, it was a great, I think Caleb was saying like it was great. Like there was so much of my like RFS experience. It was great. Mostly like friends wise and mostly sports wise and just finding myself. Not only was I excelling in sports in school, but I also, I had joined this. And club, like mission team out of the United States, they were like a junior, like semi-pro soccer team. So between my 11th and 12th year, I was accepted to that team and I got to travel with them to to Holland and play in the junior World Cup there. And we actually were the champions of that, which was pretty, yeah, it was pretty awesome. That's huge. That's huge. Yeah. You know, it's funny. Most for most people, if something like that happened to them, that would have been the lead. Your life is that interesting, Amy. Wow. Wow. I mean, soccer was a huge part of my life when I was in the age and following like it was, I was in my life. It's not so much anymore because of injuries and kids and all the things. But yeah, I got to do that. And then we, like, you know, our team ran like kid soccer camps for another few weeks. And yeah, it was a really great experience. And then I ended up continuing to play for them for the following two years after I came back to the States. So, yeah, that being said, my academic career was, yeah. My dorm dad from my eighth grade year. And so in my senior year, I knew I was like, I don't know how I knew. I had so much awareness. I was actually a pretty smart kid. I knew I didn't want to go to college. I was like, all you guys are idiots. Like, why would I pay this amount of money when all I want to do is play soccer? So I was not planning to go to college. But everything in school was geared towards you have to go to college. And so like in English class, they were like, preparing to write college essays. So I wrote my college essay on why I don't want to go to college and, you know, like dumb stuff like that. But like my, my dorm dad from eighth grade, because, you know, we're still close and he was now, you know, they were back being the dorm parents. And he, I don't know why I came up, I said I wasn't going to college and he told me flat out like to my face, like, oh, you'll never amount to anything. But yeah. And luckily, I'm a strong person. And like, it, obviously it impacted me because I remember it so vividly. But I was also like, just, I'm such a rebellious person that I was like, watch me, you know, like, mm-hmm. So, well, not only that, you're a good fucking kid, not only like, like by objective mentors, star athlete. And you say you did okay in school, I bet it was A's and B's or something like that. And you're, you're trying your darts to be the best Christian of all time, you know, following all the purity, culture, bullshit. But here's the thing, it never would have been enough. It never would have been enough. Your sister is a testament to that. She was perfect. And you know, she still had that feeling. If you had given more, they would have taken everything, you know, and you were a good, frickin kid. Thank you. Yeah, I was. I really was. I mean, like, I spent my, when I wasn't playing soccer or other sports on the weekends, I spent my Saturdays volunteering at an orphanage, like all year long. Oh, my God. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And still you have this feeling today that like, like somehow you weren't good enough. Oh my God. You're like a star kid. Any, any parent should, it would be incredibly proud to have you as their daughter. Are you kidding me? I think you were in a, you were an accomplished person then. My God. I don't know if I had that perspective, but I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. You, you stack up all, all of the things that you've talked about. And you did that with constant major disruptions in your life, in spite of it, things that would have folded most people and constantly being sexually harassed and constantly feeling unsafe. And constantly moving around and have your primary family unit, just like it constantly implode. Like you did all of that. Amy, my fucking God, I'm proud of you. No, I think. Yeah. I should have had you around at that time. Well, we're trying, you know, that's, we're all trying to read it ourselves. Hey. If we were around, if Killa was around at that time, people would have said that. No, no, no, no, no, no. I would have been under the same pressure, but, you know, so much of, so much of healing is retraining the parent, the version of your parents that are in your head, you know, that, that, that piece of them that's still telling you those things that are toxic. And so we just have to flip the script. Yeah. Okay. So you're all, yes. Yeah. So I arrived in the US. I forgot to say I tore my ACL. My senior year of high school. I had to kind of rethink that as well. So, yeah, with everything else I was going on, I also, you know, dealing with this grief of a major injury. But so I came back to the States and my mom convinced me because I'm a very creative person. And we don't really talk about that, but a friend of mine had taught me how to cut hair. I was, I had been doing updews and stuff like that with my friends. Like I was always the girl that everyone asked me to do their hair for prom and whatever. And so my mom convinced me and she's like, okay, you're, you're healing from this injury. Like I know you want to play soccer, but like, like, but try to, you know, you don't want to go to college. Let's do something that will give you like a skill so you can get a job. And she was like, what about cosmopology school? And I was like, oh, yeah, I can do that. It was like a two year program. I think I was also my thing. I'm a very like here and now, like everything needs to happen like fast. I'm not going to wait for four years to have a degree kind of person. So like in the two year program, and I looked at it and I figured out if I went like double time, I could get it done in one year. So I was like, yeah, I can do that. So I signed up for cosmopology school. I had my ACL repair. I, that summer, I went with my team, my soccer team to Brazil. I didn't play because I obviously had a tour in ACL, but I went and I got to experience Brazil. And that was amazing. It was a mission's team. So we were, you know, evangelizing at some time, but still an incredible experience. back to start a hospitality school that first year. I mean to say it was a shit year is like a super under, like statement. I excelled at school. I was born for it. Like, you know, I'm very, very good at everything. My teachers love me, blah, blah. But I had a really hard time with all the other kids, like just for women, it was kind of a huge range of ages. But it was the first time I'd been like thrown into like a completely like American environment and then also like secular environment. And I just didn't even know what to do. Like girls were doing drugs. - American woman. - What's that? - American woman, no, American woman in costumatology. - I can only imagine. - Like so much swearing and so much drugs and so much talk of sex. And like, I was so overwhelmed. I was just like, what the fuck is even happening? Like I mostly just like kept my mouth shut, head down, did my school work, you know, duck and grades. (laughs) I'm graduated like, that was kind of my like school experience with costumatology because I was like, these people are crazy. Like stay Christian, Amy, stay Christian. Don't let the devil tempt you, you know, like. (laughs) That was my-- - Amy. - Here. - Looking back at that from now where you are at, what's your pay from those women? And back then you started a Christian on ends and so you got the devil of them, but now, what about now? - Yeah, I mean, I think there's normal. But I do, I mean, costumatologies, schools and students are notorious for just a lot of drama and a lot of stuff. So I think that was true no matter what. My VA, my virtual assistant right now is in costumatology school and she's not Christian and she's also talking about just kind of the like, intense experience she's having in costumatology school. So I'm like, I'm getting some perspective like there, but I was also like, I don't know how to describe it. Is it a prick? Maybe like, or just like, you know, I'm probably this girl that I now would like really not enjoy. Like, everything was a Bible verse. Everything was like, I would sit in the break room, reading my Bible at lunch alone to like protect myself from the devil. So. - Oh my God. - Yeah, I was pretty terrified that I would be perfected. But at the same time, I did have this kind of like awareness because most of my classmates had gone off to Christian college. And when I would talk to them or get together with them, they were just so steeped in this culture of Christianity. And I was like, you know, most of the world isn't like that. So I'm very grateful for this year where I was like, given this awareness that like, that is not the world. And you know what, they don't like you. Like, you can debate with them, tell your faces blue and they will, they're not listening to anything you say. Because, you know, I'm experiencing that like firsthand. So kind of amusing and a hard situation. Obviously, you know, my home life was a disaster. My parents were, you know, miserable, going to counseling. My dad got, I mean, the mission, kicked him out. The, he was stripped of his ordination. He was, they were, you know, supporters were furious. It was a whole thing. I don't know. I wasn't given a lot of that information at that time. This is more since then. - What was it? Did he, what, did he house himself? What happened? Why? - Yeah, he told everyone, but he, you know, he confessed to my mom and he confessed to, I think the mission board. And I don't, I don't get it. This is so fun because, isn't that what we're supposed to do? You can pass your sins and then you're forgiven. You're, you're fucked up and provoked. But, I mean, that's why my mom did, forgive and forget, I guess. - Oh, yeah. - You know, I mean, I mean, but the, your mission didn't, I mean, your dad's mission didn't. - Your cell. - Yeah. Yeah. - And how were you feeling about this because it was, you know, you were the one that reported it, you know? And now your family's not in Gambaroon anymore. Your dad has lost it. You know, all of this, you know, he initiated it because he was the one doing it, but you reported it. How did you internalize that? - I don't know if I put that together. I don't think I blame myself at all. - Good. - Yeah. - Good. Good. - Yeah. - I mean, I had been observing so much shady bullshit my whole life. I think, I think he did, at that time, I felt that he got what he deserved. I just felt like I didn't need to have experience to fall out, do you know what I mean? - Well, I want to, I want to apply the concept mission for doing the right thing of stripping in love with his organization, taking him out, that is the right thing to do. Because most of the time what happens is, he's celebrated for being so brave for his problems. And confessing about his problems. So what they do is they whitewash him and put him back into the mix because now he is a brave one for telling everyone that he has this one of the efficient problems. And now it's better for it because he's been forgiven and now it's a better minister. - Yeah. - So I want to apply your mission for doing the right thing and I wish that more missions, ministers could do this on. - Thank you for that perspective. 'Cause my mom's perspective has not been the same. She was upset. She was upset. So I have to take it. - And because your mom, go ahead. - Okay. - I'm gonna go pee and come back. - Okay. - Yeah, sure, sure. - Absolutely. - Okay. So now we're in 30 minutes. So this is three hours so far. - Hey, look. - Yep, I was doing the same. I ran off to the big. - Yeah, I'm close to the afternoon. - I was a quick peep. - Oopsies. I'm knocking toys over over here. Oops. - Yeah, it was. - Okay. So, - Gave me a snack. - Looks like. - Yeah, it's hard to talk when you have to pee. - Oh yeah. - Really distracted. - Okay. - The first pee break ever. - Well, acknowledged. (laughing) - I acknowledged. I mean, I had my ear buds in earlier and I went and used the bathroom. You guys left my microphone sitting on the desk. So anyway. So we're about, I can't just doing a time check. We're about an hour and a half in. And I'm guessing, you know, when did the deconstruction, or what's the next part of the story? Let's not to rush anything, but I just want to make sure that we get through everything. - Yeah. - There's cracks in the wall, right? You know, you're, you're, you're, you're, your Bible's not gonna protect you. I know it's not because I know where you're at now. - I'm just wondering. - How were you able to ward off the sex and drugs since you ain't called-- - With the Bible, dude, man. I read my Bible every day. - We're the God. - Okay, then I guess I didn't have my Bible with me. (laughing) - I don't know, dude. - Oh, that's what I missed out. I didn't have my Bible with me. Oh, that's it. That was my problem. - I think I was still so wrapped up in like, all of the brainwashing and, yeah, it just very committed to everything. And also like, I'm not super susceptible to peer pressure in general. I'm usually the leader of any given group. So people asking me to do certain things. I was just counting. I didn't have any like particular desire to do drugs ever. So I was like, meh, meh, you know. And then I've made this, you know, I did the passport to purity. So I was also very committed to my sexual purity as well. So I'm a very dedicated and committed person, like to my relationships to like whatever I decide to do. That's just my personality type. So maybe that's where it came from. But yeah, so this first year back in the States, I also ran into Steven who is, I think we talked about at the beginning of the show. Who later becomes my husband. I had my friend as a child and they left the mission field when he was in eighth grade. We went to a mutual friends wedding in Wisconsin and happened to run into each other and we were like, "Oh my god, you, you know." And he was like, "Where are you at now?" And I was like, "Oh, Mr. Kado and he's like, "Oh, Mr. Kado." Mr. Kado was a big place, but we were like 15 minutes away from each other. So we started to develop our friendship. I actually spent most of my time at his family's house because his sisters were also my friends and his parents. I was close with his parents. And my, you know, my house was such a disaster. So like, why would I stay there? So I spent a lot of time at their house and me and Steven's relationship grew. By the end of that first year, he asked me out. We started dating. We dated for three months, then he asked me to marry him. I said, "Yes." And then we got married in the summer of 2009, so two years after I came back from camera. So I was 20 years old. Yeah, it was the, at the time, the easy, safe solution. I didn't want to be with my parents. I didn't want to deal with all of that. My, Steven was nothing like my dad. Felt very, very safe. There was other parts of the story. I don't think we have time for it. It doesn't really matter. I didn't really feel like necessarily in love with him, but he was a good guy. I felt very safe. He wanted to do missions. I wanted to do missions. It made sense. So we got married. And right off we got married. We uprooted ourselves and we drove all the way to Spokane, Washington. And he started school at Moody Bible Institute, satellite campus in Spokane. We were there for a year. We had a decent marriage. Yeah, I mean, good. For all intents and purposes, it's funny. No, because I'm not married anymore. But at the time, good. I started my own hair business there. Yeah, so I'm beginning into entrepreneurialness. He was going to school and he was working at Olive Garden. Again, hard stuff with transition. But again, like MK's, like we just do that all the time. We ran on to start over. So that first year and then at the end of that first year, he lost his job at Olive Garden. And we were already so poor. Like we were living on like $1,000 a month. It was ridiculous. And this was 2009, but it was still ridiculous. So at the time, we were looking at all these different things and we're like, well, hey, why do we have to wait until he graduates to go into missions? So at the time, actually, I don't know if I should name drop, but you can edit this out if you want to. Carl and Claire Miller were heading to the Philippines to teach at Faith Academy. And they had sent us support requests or whatever. And I were like, well, we're dirt poor. We can't support you, but we'll join you. So we-- So I was the same person who was in season one. Carl's been on the podcast. I'm just going to edit out their last name. Okay. But it's the same part. We're talking about-- Yeah. Yeah. So we went to the same church in Chicago. That's how I know them. Or that's how I met them. And yeah. So they had sent us that. And we're like, oh, well, we can't support you, but we'll join you. So we applied to Teach Beyond. God accepted, immediately drove out to Minnesota for orientation. They were-- well, we weren't accepted to Faith Academy. That wasn't like the goal. We were just like, oh, let's join Teach Beyond. And we were originally going to go to Black Forest Academy. And that didn't work out. But then Faith Academy said that they wanted us. So yeah, just kind of a weird coincidence. So we ended up going the same places. Carl. So we spent the next year supporting-- actually spent that year in North Dakota because of Stephen Livingston's job. His dad was living in North Dakota, got him a job in North Dakota. So he had a job. I did not work. I was doing all the supporting type endeavors. So I was doing that. And then we-- you know, a year later left for the Philippines. It was kind of a funny scenario. Because Stephen was still doing online school through Moody Vabbal Institute. So he was a full-time student. And then I was the one that was basically, quote, unquote, hired if you can call it that, by Faith Academy, to teach PE, which I don't have a degree in. But because of all of my experience in high school, this being a TA in sports and coaching. And in the following two years, I played in competitive stuff in Brazil twice. And I got my swim coach in some instructors license. And my co-- so soccer coaching license and all that stuff. They didn't have-- they hadn't had a female PE teacher in a really long time. And they were low on that. So they accepted me to be the high school and middle school PE teacher and soccer coach. So that's what-- so I was kind of like the missionary. And then Stephen was kind of like along for the ride doing his school. And he kind of helped out around the edges. He was like the teachers assistant for the kindergarten class. And like a few other things here and there. He like coached the drama department because he had a lot of drama and stuff like that. So that's how we ended up in the Philippines. So I had two really fantastic years of teaching PE and coaching soccer in the Philippines. I loved it. It was to date, probably the most fulfilling job that I've ever had. That being said, I do want to add into this section a giant apology to any kids that I taught, that at that time that may be listening. Because I was fully invested in the Christian perspective and the modesty culture. And I have a lot of regret around that. Even though I enjoyed it, I thrived in that role. The kids mostly loved me. I was a really hard teacher, but a really levelable teacher. But yeah, when I look back on the experience, even though it's full of joy and growth for me as a really young adult, getting to do kind of a dream job, I have a lot of regret around being privy to the whole system. And yeah, I also know-- I listened to one of the episodes. I forget her name of one of the graduates from her nation graduate that alumnus from faith academy who was abused. And there was an investigation that happened around that. And actually, I was teaching at that time when that investigation was going on. But no one was told. I wasn't told. And I was young, but I was 21 when I started teaching there. But we had all these-- what was it called? Child safety classes that we were all required to take. I think that was in response to that. But there was no divulgence of-- when I heard that episode, that was the first time I ever knew that that was what was happening. That being said, it was because of those child safety classes that I was forced to sit through and get trauma-- like triggered and traumatized from-- that I was made aware of my own childhood trauma. So I don't know where that leaves us, but it was a critical time. I started going to therapy, a therapist. within Faith Academy, which, you know, honestly was not helpful. But at least I had this newfound awareness around like what had happened to me and could start that path towards healing. And really, you know, I felt the apology. I wasn't there when, you know, I'm older than you. But that, sorry, then, that'll entombe. Yeah, I'm so sorry. And, you know, like you know, the sexual trauma that you experience on a daily basis in Africa, and I'm sure you were trying to protect those girls, you know, in a way from being a target, because you had been, you know, so I, it's totally understandable. But that cycle of traumatizing women for just being, you know, I used the word woman, children, for traumatizing young girls, for just going through adolescence, you know. Yeah. No, I definitely did the cycle and I don't feel good about it. And it's something that I've, I worked through a lot. And, you know, I haven't had the opportunity to actually say that to anyone. So I don't know who's going to listen to it. But I hope that people that needed to hear that, do because I was a, I was a zealot for that. So. Oh, this takes tremendous amount of courage to believe. If they mean something spectacular on a cosmic level. Thank you. It's not easy to acknowledge that you're privy to something you now see as I bought it. Yeah. And I've also gone through the process of feeling guilty for like what my parents did and the camera, which I know now that I have nothing to do with. But it was a long time where I felt a lot of shame and guilt for, you know, evangelism and colonialism of Africa because, you know, like that's my home. And those are my people and I love them. And I can't believe that we were a part of, you know, destroying culture, manipulating people into a different way of being. Yeah. So Amy, was that top, top protection or flashed at the beginning of you being ungunned? Yeah, I guess so. It was my beginning of my awareness of like what happened to me and it's kind of getting broken. And then I got pregnant. And how old were you when you got pregnant? I was 23, 23. And it should be noted that I never wanted to have children. That was actually something I said in our pre-marital counseling and our counts like Christian pastor. Marital counselors were like, oh, you'll change your mind. Because Stephen wanted like 10 kids. It was kind of the only thing that we didn't have in common at the time. So I got pregnant. The second year I was teaching. And what, you know, did that second semester pregnant. I was awful. I was so sick. I was miserable. We don't have time to go into all that. I was very, not just physically sick, but also emotionally distraught. Like the changes that were happening in my body kind of outside of my control or consent. I was very resentful of being pregnant. And that it was taking away. I also, I tore my ACL again right before I got pregnant. So I was also doing grief of that. I was like, that was kind of the end of my soccer career at that point. I haven't played soccer since then since I was 23. Yeah. And pregnant in the Philippines. It's like a trillion degrees. Oh my god. It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so hot. Like, I just remember like, you know that hill going up to faith, right? And we didn't have a car. So we lived in like one of the neighborhoods near, near faith. And we would walk to school. And I would walk up that hill. I remember saying to Stephen, I was like, it's my climbing mortar. It's awful. I'm going to die. It was so hot. And I had a rash over my whole body that just it's crazy. It was, you know, and I'm dealing with Filipino medical system. You know, I don't have my family with me. I've kind of resolved some stuff with my dad at this point. You know, I'm a little bit close to my parents. Her son reason or other who knows why. So I'm missing them. And, yeah, just really, really sick. I hired a missionary. Midwife actually to do a home birth with with Judah. My son, my first son is Judah. So I was still seeing a doctor like a, I think it's McCutty medical center. Or like a backup. And like I was planning a home birth. I wanted to labor with Judah. And I wasn't labor for three days at home. And this little motherfucker wouldn't come out. And eventually got transferred to the hospital for a C section. Which this is not the point of this story. That is a whole another story. But very traumatizing. I was very, it was, it was really hard. So it came out of that. So I didn't teach this first semester because he was born in September. And I had a lot of postpartum depression. Just a lot of dysphoria, like me being a mom. And like what does that mean? And like I've lost everything as far as like who I am. Like being a teacher and being like an athlete. And like, you know, I didn't really relate to any of the other moms. Because like they seem to like being moms. And like only want to talk about their kids. And I was like, I don't give a fuck. Like, I love my son. But like, you know, it's not what I'm about. Like I'm still me. Like I think it was one of the few moms that I know that really held on to like who I am. Outside of being a parent. So that was a really tough time. The next semester, the spring semester. I actually, I taught cosmology at faith. I created my own curriculum and. Presented it to the board. And I taught cosmology as a elective. That spring semester. And I taught it. And it was really fun. And it was so much fun actually. And then that's that spring. I got pregnant with my seconds on. Same emotional turmoil. It should be noted that we are not educated on how not to become pregnant. So. What. Yeah. You guys are in your 20s. And you don't know. Yeah, like I was on birth control. And then I stopped taking birth control because. It was fucking my, my, my health. But no one taught us about like. Abolation and cycles and protect. I don't know. It's just like. And then like after my, you know, Judaism is born. I never had a period. So I didn't know I could get pregnant again. And I still got pregnant with Isaiah. They very first time I ovulated because they're 50. Oh my God. They're 15 months apart. So. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is 2012, 2012 from 13. Yeah. So Judo was born in 2013. And then I, yeah, not pregnant. So what I'm getting at is this is after the iPhone. This is after high-speed internet. This is, and you're still living in like the medieval era. Yeah, I don't know why. Wow. This troubling part is that many women around the world are still in the dark. Yeah. Well, and the ironic part is that I taught sex at Faith Academy. Like that was part of my job. Wow. That was part of my job as a team. Yeah. I was very passionate about it. I was very. Okay. So students are getting a top notch education related to how their bodies work. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think I did the best I could to be honest. I'm sure you. - I did. - But yeah, no, definitely not what I, not ideal. I'm very matter of fact, and sex has never made me like uncomfortable, so like that was a positive aspect. I remember one, I mean, there were kids in ninth and tenth grade at this point that didn't know where they had a vagina. So it means the information I was giving them was groundbreaking. So yeah. - What? - That's, yeah. I mean, we could talk about that all day, but that just wow. - This is 2014, and so NKs in 2014, and it's adamant, did not know about their body. - No, not at all. - How bad for 10 you, please. - Yeah. - You want the world is exploding with - Right. - Information technology. - And I will never name names, and this person, if they ever hear this, it would be mortified, but one of the funniest best memories of sex said, it made the Academy as I was talking about all the things, and I just casually mentioned all the different ways you have sex, including anal sex, and this girl, the super shy girl, poor thing, she puts her hand up, she's like, what's anal sex? And I was like, well, it's what you get, well, I didn't say fucked, but you know, you get, have sex in your at, in your butt, and she was just like, oh, there we go. (laughing) - I can never get rid of that image of my brain, like, the poor thing. So anyway, yeah, so I got pregnant. - Wow. - Um, second son, and so we decided to go on a furlough that next semester, because my pregnancy had been so hard with Judah, we decided to kind of ride out that pregnancy and birth in the States with my second. So we did that. It was okay, it was still really rough, but it was definitely better in the States. Found a good midwife, I successfully had a lovely, hard, but lovely home birth at my mom's house. We lived with my parents that year, or that, well, it was supposed to be a semester, but we extended it to a year, 'cause after Isaiah was born, I decided I didn't, I didn't wanna go back right away, I needed some time to kind of adjust. Yeah, at this point, everything was still kind of fine. You know, we're kind of still on the bandwagon, like the missions bandwagon, then we finished raising support to go back to the Philippines, we went back to the Philippines, and then all fucking hell broke loose. Like, we barely had enough support, and just like one thing after another, like financially speaking, like, you know, people dropped off, we didn't have enough money, the car broke down, we didn't have money, like, like, we, there were weeks where I didn't know if we would be able to eat, because it was so stressful. During this time, I don't remember the word of things, but so there was all that going on. I am staying home with the two little boys and Stephen's working at Paythe Academy. So I'm not working, I'm not actually doing anything that I enjoy, I'm just being a mom, which I know is a great job and good, very noble, but not my calling. So I'm miserable, I'm just like hot and miserable at home with these two screening little toddlers and not screaming, they're actually really good kids. I should back that up, but this was how I felt. And it's not having any good time. I was like, why am I here? Why am I here? We don't have any money, it's hot, it's horrible. I was still experiencing a lot of health issues, a lot of postpartum depression. We all, our whole family got big gay fever. And me and me and I, I got hospitalized, I'm like transfusions and stuff, just feeling so alone and so abandoned. And somewhere in all this mix, like Stephen also admits to me that he's been watching porn. Well, you can imagine the, - Yeah, that's true. - How to get that. That has on me. I'm like, well, here we go again, fuck this. Like, that's perfect. You know, I picked this man because he felt safe. And now he's doing the same thing to me that like my dad did. And it wasn't like a big thing. Like it was a very mild thing, you know. But at the time, it felt like this catastrophic thing. So I was totally melting down. I was trying with all my might to like hold on to my face but like I would pray and I wouldn't hear anything. And I was like, God wasn't there. And he wasn't fixing any of these problems regardless of how I mean, like how good I'd been, how face will I've been at serving him. And I was just, I was mad. And so for some reason the, what's it called? Someone in our mission organization, like on the ground team sent out a, like a stress test. And I filled out the test, what we were supposed to do. And I scored in burnout. And so the therapist, like the fifth Academy therapist who was also on our mission, like scheduled a meeting with me, like, hey, what's going on here? Doesn't look like you're doing good. And I was like, I'm not doing it. But it's awful. And here's what's happening. So I started going to therapy with him, which I will point out was not good. Like Christian therapy just really sucks. Because their whole goal is to keep, especially in missionary Christian therapy, is to fix you and get you back in the service, right? It's not really built around trying to make sure that you're good, you know. - Can I guess what the coaching was or the proposed outcome of like what you should do? My guess is you just have to focus on Godmore, you know? You gotta really focus on Jesus. That's the answer. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Hey, why did the Bible protect you just finally? - I don't know. - Did you have your Bible with you? - You had to have to reach scripture more. - But like, I'm glad they at least identified. I mean, it will still like take away, like at least somebody identified that you were in burnout, the solution clearly what didn't match the need. But for alarm bells to have been raised like that, it must have been really bad, you know? - Yeah. - Like, wow. - Yeah, it was a really dark time. - So what was the 16th point? What both your whole wide open and what started your journey was? - So all of that. - The construction. - All that that was happening where I felt like I was being abandoned by God. And then I started therapy. And because of therapy, I was made aware, like I suddenly remembered my childhood sexual trauma. Like earlier when I got into therapy a couple of years ago, I was like, oh, like there might be something going on, like because of what I was learning in child safety classes, but I wasn't really sure what. And then I just like got this like flashback visual, you know, of everything. And that further broke me. I was not doing well. And I was like, God doesn't like me. God hates me. If he loved me, he would be taking care of me right now. But he's not. And it sucks. So I was going through that this whole year towards the end of this year. You know, we were trying to side whether we stay, you know, like, you know, sign for the next year. And I told Stephen I was like, I cannot. I don't feel good about being not a missionary when I don't even know if God is loving or real. I can't be here anymore. And Stephen said, I was like, well, I was like, I need to go home. I need to be near my mom. Like this is being apparent by myself in a foreign country. It's just not working for me. And he says, oh, OK, well, we can do that if we have another kid. What? Yeah. And like, we haven't talked much about, you know, my relationship with Stephen. But this was a pivotal-- I didn't realize it at the time. Looking back, like a pivotal manipulative, like, abusive move that he-- you know, he wanted a lot of kids. And so I said yes. You know, so I guess I consented. But because I wanted to go back to the States, right? So we moved back to the States. I got pregnant immediately. So a human life is a bargaining chip? Yeah. I mean, it's sexual exploitation, honestly. But yeah, I'm sorry. Let's-- yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, it's not cool. It's really not OK. Yeah, got pregnant. You're putting it mildly. You're not cool. It's not-- This is what I call a pinaebological. Yeah. It's evil in all sense of the word. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think so much of my time in this period of my marriage was I was Gaslit and manipulated so much and isolated so much I didn't even know and still sometimes like because after I left him Everyone in the Christian community sided with him. So sometimes I question myself a lot like oh well maybe you know I'm wrong but like thank you so much for saying like that's not okay because it didn't feel okay you know in the time um yeah so we came back to the stage oh I mean see I to all men out there you are a dick you are a literal dick if you demand your partner to have a child because you're not that fucking one caring the child having to go through ten minutes of health and then delivering you're not the one okay we just got a little that's that's it so for you that's just one night before the woman so for another story yeah well all you men out there who think just because you're the husband or you have the right to say we I want a child no it's not you're right not your body yeah yeah I agree I'm very strongly about this I I do too at this point and especially considering the hellish pregnancies I'd already endured it was so inconsiderate so inconsiderate yeah he's not schlepping his ass up that hill you know no no and like he thought he was because he was supporting me through it but like no like your body didn't do that like you're at the end so and I feel like my pregnancy stories are kind of like a whole separate issue and I stay focused but um yeah so I got pregnant right away this pregnancy actually of of my four was the better one it's still not great but decent we built a tiny house we were started working on a farm oh so um as we left faith academy we did not leave the mission we got reassigned as tck care coordinators for teach beyond so we were in charge of like orientation for families going out into the field providing support for them while they are on the field and doing transition for them as they returned specifically caring for kids and then we were also working with different other organizations and I have now forgotten the names of doing like reentry seminars for kids coming back off the field which I think are all really great things yeah my my ex has been also started a podcast ironically enough tck care.com but mostly focused on yeah a very Christian focused um mk experience type podcast uh I was never on it because I was going through all this shit yeah he asked me if I wanted to be on it I was like uh I don't think your listeners want to hear about how much I hate God right now so yeah so we were we were doing that um role um which was a little easier not being like on the mission field doing stuff but I still felt like this really dis unease of like I'm grappling with all these questions and not really sure where I am with my faith and I'm like supposed to be helping all these kids um and it really came to a head the summer after Boaz was born we were leading a reentry seminar I believe it was Barnabas International um is that it we were done in cedarville and uh I was there was a you know a girl that wanted to talk to me and like process and stuff which was asking me is like questions about the faith and I was like honestly I don't know and I'm probably not the person you should be asking um and that was kind of like my more like a ha moment like I don't think I'm you know at that time I'd be like oh this is a phase I'm just being tested like it's like whatever I'm gonna I'm gonna come back to the faith right and I was like in that moment I was like oh my god like I don't think I'm a Christian anymore and I don't know if I ever will be um and I yeah I had I was just really struggling I was like I don't feel like I should be doing this job anymore like it feels really really critical um I loved I loved working with these teenagers like I feel like they really needed me and I was really good at it but like I you know not from my like religious Christian perspective right um and that's something I mean would love to get back to just helping from a non religious perspective which would be lovely but I was definitely not in a good place at that time and no one should have put me in charge of mentoring other people um because I was you know mentally breaking down but um yeah so in that so after that seminar in that fall we had it we had a tiny house in the Shroud area and we had to move the tiny house and the place we moved it um there's a lot of logistics but we couldn't we didn't have like like Trissier running water and we were like running into like the winter season in Chicago and like you know it was really cold and it was this whole thing and um I was having a really hard time just because in general and my mom brought you know took me aside and she was like maybe like why are you struggling so much like she was referring simply to like the like like logistical things of like you know our house being in a weird place and not having amenities that we needed which you know audits own is kind of a big deal but yeah she was like kind of like why are you struggling so much and I was like well um I told so that was when I told her like I'm dealing with a lot of stuff around my childhood sexual abuse that was the first time I ever told her what happened to me as a child and I don't even know if I told her a detail but just kind of broad scope um and she was obviously devastated um but in that moment she said oh my god I'm so sorry and I understand because I've never told you this but the reason we left Cameroon was actually because your dad was cheating on me and sleeping with prostitutes and addicted to sleeping with prostitutes and I just like was like what what the fuck like I don't even know if I said what the fuck I was just like in complete shock I was like I just told you this huge thing about myself where I need support and then you're just gonna tell me this huge revelation where I left Cameroon because dad had a porn addiction and now it's like way worse way worse and you waited 10 years to tell me this like I don't even know if I had those thoughts at that time these are thoughts I've had since I haven't had a lot of anger um but that whole time she was telling you to forgive him oh yeah she told you that piece of everything she knew all that oh yeah she knew all this the mission knew all this um everyone knew that I was just not told and or my sister and I was just that evening just in like shock I don't think I expressed any emotion at that time I went home and just kind of like in all my life and all of the things that I've gone through I can't really say that I ever really broke down but then I broke down like I completely lost my shit I was fantasizing about being put into a cycord because I was like I cannot I cannot deal I cannot deal this is too much I and I how am I supposed to deal with this like I had no I still kind of don't really know um and you know my mom wanted me to talk to my dad and I was like there is no fucking way I am not talking to him um he wrote me a letter you know saying how sorry he was and how wrong he was and how poor a daddy was so I guess I give him kudos for doing that but it was way too little way too late and this was in uh let's see 2017 uh and I haven't spoken to him since um and you know I started I actually started going to like a real therapist at that time I say real like not a Christian therapist um started going to a therapist started working on my stuff it was really really dark really bad um at that time there was a missionary retreat center and an organ that had been talking to us that wanted to work with us because we were, you know, doing all this stuff with missionary kids and transition and whatever and they wanted to collaborate and they had been trying to get us to come over here to work with them and I was like, dude, like we don't, we, I have nothing to give, I have nothing. I'm just, I'm a little shell of, I don't even know who I am. I'm a shell. I don't need to work with you. I need whatever it is that you're providing and so we talked to them and they said, yeah, you can come, you know, stay with us as long as you want to recover and stuff and so we packed up the three kids and we moved across the country and to Welch's organ and I stated that missionary retreat center for nine months and this was where, you know, I think Stephen was hoping that it would fix me, bring me back to God honestly and just made it more clear how hypocritical and awful Christians were because all I would hear was, Amy, you should forgive and blah, blah, blah, like it was somehow my problem and I was like, what? I did nothing to deserve all this, like all this is happening to me, like why should I forgive my dad when he was the one that did all this bullshit? So that, yeah, I thought of really, really good therapist at that time and I started doing some really good work in the process, I realized I was not happy in my marriage, being very manipulated and stuff. I told my husband that I didn't love him but I was still committed to being my family, I was still like at that time, you know, I was doing constructing Christianity but I wasn't, hadn't been distracted like all the little like stuff that goes with it, right? Like you can't get divorced, that's about what happens, right? So I was like, let's keep, let's work on our marriage. We got this, like I don't feel anything for you but like I want to figure it out. You know, we have three kids together, let's figure it out. And then, yeah, during that time one night he got me pregnant again without my consent. So, yeah, and this was after I told him this and I don't know, I don't know what was going on in the mind but to me it feels like he put a baby inside of me on purpose to make sure I would stay with him because that is what happened. I stayed with him through the pregnancy and for another year and a half until I weaned that baby. And again, that absolutely needs the definition of sexual assault and I don't know what, you know, what all happened there but if you're impregnating someone without their consent and lying to them about, you know, what you are not using as protection or what, I don't know the situation that happened but that's fucking sexual assault, that's a crime. It's an actual crime. Yeah, and I didn't know, to be honest, I didn't know at the time. I was just dead this day because I knew I didn't want to eat more children. Like I communicated that very clearly. You know, I didn't feel like I could survive another pregnancy. I remember when I got the pregnancy test back. I don't know if I ever cried so hard in my life. Like we were living with other people. It was like a retreat center and like people came like knocked on the door. Like, are you okay? Are you dying? You know, like I may as well be you fuck you. But yeah, just it's a child still waiting. Yeah. Yeah, because I, you know, like I said, I was with a really good therapist and I went to the week I found that pregnancy test. I went to therapy and she was like, I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, you know, and she was like, well, you have choices. And I looked at her and I was like, no, I don't. And she was like, you do. I couldn't even fathom. I mean, I'm uncertain whether I actually brought this up with Stephen or not or it was just in my brain. But I think I did. And obviously it was like an absolute no like, no, we cannot have an abortion. And so I carried that baby with all of the trauma and all the pain and it was it was awful. It was my worst birth of all of them. And he has a lot of health issues. It's been really tough. But yeah, I'm so grateful to my therapist for like being a mirror of like what happened. And then I had a really good friend that I made during that time that I just kind of told her what happened, you know, like in detail, like how I got pregnant. And she was the first person to like really shine a light and mirror back to me like, you need. That's not okay. You were like assaulted. And I was like, oh, like it's just it's so mind-boggling to me like how when we're being abused, like it we can't see it. And I I think that's like the most heartbreaking thing is you know, I see other people going through similar things. And you know, I think a lot of people judge women who can't get out of abusive situations, but like to be honest, like you just don't know. Like it's like yeah, so gasslet and abuse and like manipulated into this like way of thinking. And like I remember when I was with him, I'd be like, oh yeah, everything's good. And the fine and like you know, he'd talk me into it. And then I would go off and like maybe hang out with a friend and I'd be like, oh my god, I need to leave him. This is awful. And I'd come back and he would just like rewrite the story again. And yeah, it wasn't until I was weaning my fourth kid, Jethro. I because I was having still having really terrible like health issues. And so I'd breastfed all the other kids for like three years, but this one was like he was a year old and I was like, I'm so done. So I told Stephen I needed to like go away for like a long weekend because I knew that I wouldn't be able to do it like if Jethro was there crying and asking for milk, I couldn't like do it. So I went away for a long weekend to mean him. And that was like the pivotal like moment. Like having that space and clarity like away from him for like three days, I was like, oh my god. Like I need to get out. How do I do that? Like and I didn't have the answers, but I just I knew I had like all this clarity. Like I had to leave. You know, I'd already kind of left Christianity behind. No one knew at that time that I left right. You know, it was very secret. It was just within my heart and you know, Stephen knew, but like he obviously he wasn't telling anybody that I would been embarrassing. But I wasn't going to church or anything like that. So I came back and I signed up for health coaching school. I got a naturopath to start working on my health stuff. I started a blog and then I started working on my baking business, which I still have to this day as a means to like because I hadn't been working right, I've been a stay at home. As a means to like support myself. I like give myself a way out. That was just like preparing, right? We were in therapy and like, you know, I still kind of hope that like it would all work out and stuff like that. But yeah, in June of 2020, I thought I was pregnant again. And I was like, mother fucker. Like, this is unacceptable. I was like, I'm getting an abortion. He was like, oh fuck, you're not. And I was like, what? I was like, okay, you need to get a nice sec to me because this is unacceptable. I almost, I forgot to say that. I almost died with my last birth and my son almost died. Like, it was really bad. And I was like, I can't go through that again. Like, I can't. I'm emotionally physically nothing. And he was like, kind of just like, well, you know, what up? I don't know. Not that he was indifferent, but kind of. I was like, you need to get a nice sec to me. He was like, no, I was like, are you serious right now? We have four kids. What can you possibly want more? Like, what do you mean that for anymore? And that was my breaking point. Like, I'm not happy about like the situation, but I'm grateful that it happened because I finally had this like clarity and I was like, get the fuck out of my room. I don't, I don't want you here anymore. And luckily, I was not pregnant. And that was, you know, we lived together for another like two months or so. And while we worked things out, then I was kind of like, He was awful. He was really, really awful. He took the kids, he found an apartment to call the money, 'cause I wasn't working. He was like, "Well, there's not many." And I was left with nothing. I kind of couch served for three months or so until I found a co-living situation that I could afford. And I got a cleaning job that paid bills and stuff. So yeah, that's kind of like how I left, that's like kind of my big breakthrough. Like I had been leaving Christianity really, really slowly, but like leaving Stephen was the like big like, yeah, we're done. Like this is a double shit, you're part of it. And I don't want anything to do with it. I told my parents, they, well, my mom, I don't talk to my dad to the state. I told my mom, they were obviously devastated. Not supportive. They love Stephen. They still support Stephen. They, when they come to Portland, they stay with Stephen. They've been to, they only, Stephen's remarried now. They were at his wedding. - Oh my God. - Yeah, that's kind of messed up. - What? - Yep. So, where are the children? - Yeah, so good question. So, through the first year and a half, I was watching the kids for half the week at Stephen's apartment, because I didn't have the like, means or ability to like have them live with me. And then I finally got a really, really good job. As a personal chef. And I was able to rent a nice house, look, you know, that they could fit in. And I was like, hey, I want the kids to start living with me half the week. And actually that was really huge thing. He was like, oh no, they can't. And I was like, oh, they are going to. He was like, if you keep them overnight, I'll send the police to have them removed from your house. 'Cause we had not finished our divorce settlement at this point. I don't know what leverage he had. I was super scared. I remember calling my mom super scared and she was like, well, Stephen has a point. And I actually stopped talking to my mom for a year after that. Because I was just like, oh my God, my own parents don't even support me. So I just kind of did it alone. I figured it out alone. I've got a lawyer. Got split custody with Stephen, 50/50 parenting time. And it's been three and a half years. Yeah, three and a half years that they've been living with me half the week. Yeah, that's kind of like the deconstruction process. I kind of want to maybe say like how life is now, which is good, but maybe pause for. - Well, like, so just like people don't know how fucking hard it is to get out. And you got out. You fucking got out. Like, and especially the entire system within the evangelical world, within just the patriarchy here in American worldwide, everything is just setting up hurdle after hurdle. Not necessarily a wall, but just a series of a thousand hurdles to have basic, it's like safety, you know, outside of that marriage. And you fucking got out. And also like, fuck him. It's not like he's financially supporting this 10 person family that he's dreaming of, you know? Like, dude, you want to have another kid? How about you make six figures, you know? Like when you're making half a million dollars a year, we'll talk about, we'll talk about a bigger family, but like you want me to like put my life on the line. And for what? Fuck you, I'm sorry. - No, totally agree. Like, he was still in like grad school. Like he wasn't making no money. Yeah, ironically him and his new wife are pregnant again. So I'm just waiting for that to, you know, manifest itself. But. - Everyone gets to live in the hell that they create for themselves, you know? - Yeah. No, I mean, guys, come on. In all this, my head is wrecked, because they're children and worlds. So, okay, so this Stephen and this new woman as a new baby, and there are bringing another universe of health. What's up, Stephen? - I don't know. Like, at least I'm grateful. As far as the kids are concerned, they seem happy and well adjusted and good. You know, like, Stephen was not a good husband, obviously. I think he genuinely loves children, which is why he wanted so many of them. So he's at the dad. His kids love him. I will say all of that, you know? Not that there aren't a million things that frustrate me and hurt me every day. But as far as like the kids are concerned, they seem to be happy and well adjusted. And they love their new stepmom. So at least all of that. Feels like for the kids, feels really good. And they also, you know, they love me and they love my partner. And I get to provide this like other side of things where I get to educate them on like, you know, not everything is Christian than like, for the other ways of thinking and like so much openness. Like I am extremely, we didn't touch on this, but before I left Stephen, a friend of mine, I had been a rise maiden, her wedding. And it came out that she was polyamorous. And she explained it to me. And it just clicked. I was like, oh my god, yes, that makes so much sense. I love that so much. So as soon as I left, Stephen, I jumped straight into polyamory and had a really great time, really great experiences, really amazing partners. Men, women, non-binary trans, like all the people, just so much fun. So like I never got to have all of those things, you know, as a young adult and I really got to experience some sense. And I have just like a lot of openness with my kids around sexuality and gender and identity and like whoever you wanna be and however many people you wanna love, like it's totally okay. And yeah, it's been like really, really beautiful learning process like since the sleep and it's been called. - Stone to think of it. - Yeah. - To go discover yourself. - Yeah. - So how did you come to have us? How did you come across or have popped as and what made you to reach out? - Yeah. - How did you reach out? (laughs) - I think I joined the Exit Unjoggle TCK group on Facebook group. - Facebook group. - Yeah, a couple of years ago and I found it really supportive 'cause when I was going through it, like I didn't know anyone, I knew like one other person that it deconstructed and I just felt really alone and that Facebook group, even though I don't necessarily participate very much, I do read all the posts and so like that. And it's just really encouraging that I'm not alone and it was through that that I saw you guys in this podcast. And I started listening to your prodigy task and it's been like super, super healing and super helpful. Yeah, I can't even express how much it has been. And last year I was asked to speak at this event to tell about my story. And it was only like a 15 minute version of this. And after I was done with that and felt all the feeling and processing that goes with telling your story and public to a group of people, I was like, oh my gosh, I think I wanna do this podcast, but I was really scared. I don't know how long it took me after. That was in April last year. I thought how long it took me to reach out to Caleb. But I think it was in the fall sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Last fall. I was like, I think I'm ready. We scheduled you for this season. Yeah. It looks scheduled for this season. Yeah. So I mean, I've been wanting to tell my story. I've been really scared because I, you know, obviously this is not gonna bowed well for my parents. And it's day two, so I've got to listen. Exactly. So I don't know if that will happen. I don't think they will. You know, if they wanna come tell their version of the story that they can come do that, I will have questions for them. And they will not probably enjoy it very much. I wouldn't do that to you Amy. I'd believe me. I didn't actually book them, but the truth will out. And any group or any family unit or any system that you're a part of that identifies the truth as the enemy is not something you should be a part of. And so many encays. - So many encays. So many, there's been several people who have written books or come on the podcast or come out with their story who have been ex-communicated. They're their church or their family or whatever that is. And instead of people saying, "Oh my God, I have more questions." You know, like the abuse you endured, how do we stop that? You know, that question is never asked. - That's definitely what I experienced. I mean, I lost everyone. When I left Stephen, I was demonized. Like you're leaving your family, you're abandoning your family, your blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, obviously 'cause you're not Christian, you must be the devil. And then, you know, obviously I jumped into a very alternative relationship style that made people be like, "Well, you're just a fucking hoe." So that makes sense. Yeah. - Why would you not please this fat one? - Yeah, but the irony in all this is that if you look at the roots of Christianity, how it began, those people breaking out of the system. Then if you look at thought-estanced evangelical movement, it was again people breaking out of the system. And now it turned into this very rigid system that traps people. We are so foolish, human, humans never learn ideas. - Can I ask you, if you had the Academy, when you were going through all that child safety stuff, was that 2014, 2015, or what? - Yeah, I was like 2011 to 2014. - Okay, okay. I'm just trying to think of what situation it was that kind of made me think that Academy started implementing those child safety stuff. - It was Annie. - It was Annie. - It was Annie. - Yeah, Annie. - Okay, Annie, okay. - It was definitely. - Yeah, so I'm gonna message Annie and let her know that that was one of the cracks in your wall was the required training from Faith Academy. You know, that was the result of her, 'cause even if just one person got out because of that, that's incredible. - Yeah, and I actually did message her after her episode came out. - Oh my God. - Just to say, like, I'm so sorry, like, you know, and this is my experience. I had no idea, and like, you know, her story was so powerful and so tragic and it rocked me a lot. I think that was actually the story that made me reach out to you and say, like, I need to be on this podcast. So. - She had mentioned that somebody, several folks had reached out to her from the Academy, the head of very similar reaction to you. And that's interesting that you were one of the folks. And I know that meant a lot to her that you reached out. - Yeah. - It helps. - Wow. - This is it. - I think, Amy, this may be the first time that you've actually sat down and told you a whole lie. (laughing) And that in a span of four hours. - I don't think you wish even this to a therapist. - Yeah. - Yeah. - No, it's true. - I think I wish from your birth till now. So we are honored to have listened to your entire story. - Thank you so much. Thank you for holding space for it. 'Cause yeah, it's true. Like, I think people get like pieces here and pieces here. And like, even, you know, talking to my partner yesterday, I was like, you know, I think you've heard most of this. Just not in chronological order. - Yeah. - I'll put together in one bit or one piece. And, you know, 'cause he's, he's not an M.K. - My life. - What's that? - My life has, my life is enriched again. And I have added yet another universe to my catalog of life stories. - Yeah. Yeah, I guess I also wanna just like wrap it up, I guess, with like, there was a lot of darkness and a lot of hurt and a lot of pain. But like, the last five years, even though like, immeasurably hard, like trying to like figure out how to be a single mom and like go through divorce and recreate community and support all those things. But like, I have never been happier. I have like never been in like, more myself. Like so much joy in being who I am. Like all of that that was so stifled as a kid. But I didn't even know, you know, 'cause I was trying so hard to please so many people to be the best Christian person I could be. And, you know, I don't even know if it was looking back. I'm like, I think I just have a high drive to be the best person I could meet. 'Cause now as a non-Christian, I just so driven like in my career as a business woman, you know, I own two businesses, my, I'm an algebra friendly baked cake business and then my health coaching business. And I'm just constantly striving to be like the best person I could meet, the best business owner, I could meet the best coach I could meet, the best partner I could be, you know, the best parent I could meet. So I think that was just built into my DNA. It was just miss. Miss applied to Christianity back in the day. Like I can't even like describe how happy and fulfilled I've been getting to be like exactly who I am with no rules or like filters over like how I should be. Like I just get to be me, you know, I move in the world where that is like accepted. And like meet people like you guys and like other people, like, you know, like the numerous partners I've had over the last four, five years, but like see me and like accept me for who I am and like hold space for all the trauma. And they're like, it's just so beautiful and so wonderful that you made it through all of this. And he's still like I can, my partner constantly is like saying like you have ever right to me angry and miserable and yet you are like just constantly like full of joy and like wanting to like grab life by the balls and like go for it. And it's so true. I'm like, yeah, I was like in like this like squelched pit of like despair for so long. Like why wouldn't I just like grab life and like try, you know, I didn't get out till I was 30. Like I'm trying to make up for like a lot of lots of time. So that was kind of how I would end up. - Well, I am, yeah, this is a very good note to end up. I am exceedingly happy for you that you found yourself and you are free to be you. And I think that's what we should say as you turn on speechless. We're going to say I'm free to be me. - Free to be me. - I'm free to be me. - That's free to be me. - Yeah, like, you know, that's the whole, and I say at the end of every show, that's a life unwaisted like if I would go back 20 years, you know, back then I thought I knew myself. I thought my life had purpose. I thought, you know, but all of those things were Pete, things that I was that I had to be, you know? - Yeah. - That I was told I had to be. And I just so resonate with that. You know, the most healing thing that you can ever experience is one, figuring out who you really are. And at least my experience is like finding out like, I'm actually a really incredible person that should be proud of myself and proud of what I can do and proud of how kind I am to other people. 'Cause I was taught the opposite growing up that I was evil. And then the other thing is gathering people around you who see you, you know, so healing, so deeply fucking healing. I did wanna, so you were, when you were a kid, you taught yourself how to be an athlete. You taught yourself how to be like physically fit. And I know with your healthcare company that's something that you had to teach yourself again 'cause you were having healthcare issues. And I don't know, if you could maybe just plug that for a second or let people know if you wanna know how Amy has like transformed her life very much self-taught I believe from the post I've seen online. But you again, just digging in and figuring out how to heal yourself, your physical body. - Oh, I appreciate that. I wasn't sure if that was like the right space for this, but-- - Yeah, totally. - Yeah, I definitely, so my, My own health journey was a lot of just really debilitating autoimmune stuff that cropped up in pregnancy and postpartum and all of that through just, yeah, a lot of scarring the internet and experimenting on my body. I did a lot of work on myself to heal myself. I didn't really make progress until I hired a naturopath and then I went to health coaching school in a year-long program to become an integrated nutritional health coach. And that year, along with leaving Stephen, it was actually fundamental in changing, just transforming my health. I went from very debilitated, barely able to walk down the street, have energy to take care of my kids, to gestion issues, all I think. It was really bad. Within a year, hiking seven miles, dancing, all this energy, I skinned and cleared up. My debt stuff had mostly resolved. And yeah, I'm just so passionate about helping women figure out their autoimmune stuff and their food sensitivities and everything so that they can reclaim their life and become the vibrant, wonderful, impactful women that they should be in the world. Because when we're clouded by all this stuff that's holding our bodies back, it's really hard to really make that impact. And that has given me so much freedom to resolve my own health issues, to go out and be able to make an impact in the world and help others. So yeah, that's what I do with health coaching practice. And outside of my product side of things where I do gluten free dairy free, refined sugar free cakes for weddings and birthdays and stuff like that. And they kind of go hand in hand. They've seen different kinds of connected. Because you know, why do you want one thing when you can do two? So yeah, the reason I asked about that is our previous guest, Sherlyn, the episode right before you, same thing. Auto unbelievable trauma, you know, her dad died her sophomore year of high school, came back to US and then her mom died of cancer senior year of high school. And she was taking care of her mom while she was trying to finish out her senior year. And I think her mom died like weeks before graduation. You just awful. But autoimmune disease and it's just so common, especially within women, MK's that we've interviewed. And my wife who has experienced a lot of religious trauma and other trauma in her life also has those things. She's gluten free dairy free. And you know, our, I cook gluten free dairy free for the most part. That's not like it's like clients, yeah. And I just think that there is such a connection between autoimmune disease and the type of trauma that the missionary kids experience because I just hear about it a lot. So how do people find you if you want that or not, you don't have to, you don't have to put that because that does identify you. Okay. Yeah. No, I don't mind being identified. I process it out before I started. Yeah. I think I also mentioned I am very much in the public eye. So my website is flourishingwithamie.com. And you can find me on Facebook flourishing festivities. And then on Instagram, Amy underscore flourishing festivities. So yeah, any of those problems you can feel free to lay out anyone. There's no boundaries. A lot of you have a message me, connect with me. We can talk about all this stuff because I definitely do that as well. And I'm still working like through my own niche and figuring out like, you know, because this feels really important to me, like supporting other missionary kids and, you know, the little just trauma stuff. I just don't know how it fits quite in. But I had loved how you connected that where it's like, well, the trauma causes the like autoimmune stuff. And like the symptoms are these food sensitivities and stuff that I work with. And but that's how integrative nutritional health coaching actually works is like, we don't just like, oh, like here's like the food you're supposed to eat. No, no, we like, we look at all the things like the whole picture of like, you know, your relationships, your history, your, you know, your trauma, your exercise. Your job, like they, they all impact, like everything's connected. It's not isolated. Ever it's most connected. Yeah, I think that's the, the problem that most people, like, you know, if you go to a dietician, not to knock dieticians because they're great or, you know, a doctor or whatever, they're just looking at this like one aspect, whereas the integrative health coaching looks at, you know, the entire scope, you know, like we're focusing on these symptoms, like, okay, you're allergic to it and allergic to a dairy or whatever. But that there's a bigger picture that's impacting that. And so with my clients, it's not, it's not just like, oh, let me give you these like recipes and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, that's a part of it for sure. Like, you know, so much of my coaching practices, like going into like those stories and I was like, you know, the things that are really, like the emotional stuff that comes up because those are the most, I mean, when I left Steven, I lost like 40 pounds, like just like that, like without changing anything. And like that to me, and like a lot of my symptoms went away as just, you know, so can't just count like how much these things impact our health, you know, it's body keeps the score. And I think, oh, my God, such a good. Yeah. And that's how it's tied. So, gut health is tied to mental health and human. I know. So we're, what, what are we yelling at here at the end? Q. Yeah, just follow my lead. Oh, I'm free to leave me. Amy, Amy, I'm a fucking pleasure. I think this is our longest episode ever, but you did such an incredible job tying everything together. And thank you to all of the guests that, that played a role in this episode because Amy listened to almost our entire T catalog. I believe of interviews that Amy beautifully told. Thank you so much. And I'm going to kind of play us out here a little bit with this song. Why did you pick this song, Amy? Well, you kind of surprised me. I should have known, but asked me what song I wanted to play. And I was like, oh, my God, I don't know. And then I asked my kids what my favorite song was. They gave me some options. And this was the one that I was like, I don't know if it's my favorite song. But I think he speaks to my life, for sure. I won't be the silent. All right, human go for it. I'm free to be me. I'm free to be. I'm free to be me.