Amy Butchko, SAIC: Building a Recruitment Marketing Program with Craig Fisher Inside Talent

I'm Craig Fisher and this is Inside Talent where we take you into the minds behind the scenes and show you some of the coolest tools and best practices of some of the coolest people in the talent industry. My guest today is Amy Buchko, Director of Talent Acquisition Solutions at SAIC. Inside Talent is brought to you by Visage.Jobs. Visage is the crowdsourcing platform for sourcing. Hey, it's Craig Fisher, welcome to Inside Talent. Today my guest is Amy Buchko. She is the Director of Talent Acquisition Solutions for SAIC, which is one of the leading government contractors for things like digital transformation. And Amy is coming to us from Virginia. Is that right? I am. I'm from Virginia. Northern Virginia. And thanks for being here. Amy, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. Thanks Craig. Thanks for having me today. So I am the person who handles all of the recruitment marketing and sourcing and the digital transformation of our talent acquisition team at SAIC. So I lead the team of people who does all of those things and I'm excited to talk to you about that today. All right. So, fun story. Amy and I met back in 2017. I believe I was speaking at the Recruit DC conference and telling a story of how I did a digital transformation for our employer brand at CA Technologies, formerly computer associates. With a team of some very smart marketers that were working on my team there, at the time in 2015, when I started there, you didn't really get handed a team of four people who were just doing recruitment marketing and employer branding activities globally. You kind of had to grab this coordinator over here and this recruiter over here and kind of put it together. And we did a lot of cool stuff and I shared that on stage and Amy connected with it and connected with me afterwards and basically said, this is what I want to do and I'm working on it. And so we've traded notes over the ensuing years and she sent me a note recently to say I did it and here we are. Yeah, Craig, I remember that I remember your talk vividly and I remember taking a ton of notes and coming back and telling my boss and remember at the time I was a solo practitioner doing employment marketing and it was not something, as you say, people weren't really talking about it the same way then. It was sort of like you're a recruiter adjacent, but what do you really do? And so I came back and I said, I know what I want to be when I grow up and I need a team. And so it was a fun moment for me to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up but also to have a little bit of a roadmap and just somebody who had done it at an organization that at the time was pretty much exactly the same size as the IC was at that time. So I was like, okay, so you've got a legacy brand, you took a new team and a bunch of new ideas and you scrapped some old technology and got some new technology and made this work. And it was really, it was a moment for me that kind of crystallized, but it was possible after kind of toiling a bit of an obscurity for a few years wondering, you know, as a, you know, my background was as a sourcing recruiter. So I was always the person that was back there, you know, building the Fancy Boolean searches and trying to figure out, you know, how to find the next technologist to fill a role. And you know, and I had sort of transitioned into being the person who ran our, from a marketing system and I was the only person there who knew how that thing worked anymore. And oh, by the way, it too was on its last legs. So I was really searching for inspiration at that time for like, how do we make this transition into modern times and get out of this legacy mindset. So it was really helpful and I appreciate it. Yeah, you know, upgrading a CRM or just kind of starting fresh with good data and things like that can make all the difference in the world. So there's a lot of CRM companies who will tell you that we want all the recruiters to be able to have access to and utilize the CRM and, you know, make it easy for them. And I've always said that I don't think that recruiters need a CRM at all and nor will they use it very much, right? And it should be, it should be wielded as any, you know, HubSpot tool, type tool would be by admins and professionals who know what they're doing with it so that you're not accidentally spamming candidates and possibly customers and, you know, right? Currently. Yeah, exactly. So what was your experience in, you know, getting the change done to kind of move to a new system and, you know, how did you get the buy-in and what did you do for, you know, the user experience afterwards? That's a great question, Craig. And we disagree a little bit about whether or not recruiters have a place with a CRM. But I think that adoption, you're correct about and it's challenging to get a large team using a new system. So when you look at the question of why did we make the change and then how did we get buy-in, that's a pretty good story and it's one that I think I will take with me through the rest of my career because, you know, just like I kind of remember the moment when I was like, this is a real job, I'm in. I also remember the moment when I was sitting with RCHRO at the time and walking her through the apply process that we had at the time that took 25 minutes to complete when you knew the right buttons to push, which I did. And it was a really painful 25 minutes. I'm not sure I still have that outfit because I probably sweated through it. But it was one of those things where, you know, really showing our senior leadership what our candidates are having to go through all the time to even just apply to a job that they it really crystallized for the organization that, okay, we've got to get this and if we're going to try to be attracting the best and the brightest talent into, you know, come solve some of the nation's biggest problems, we've got to kind of treat them the way they're used to being treated by consumer brands. And so, you know, once that idea took hold, we were off. You know, of course the change doesn't happen overnight because then there's an RFP and there's all that other stuff. And, you know, and I think that, you know, one of the things that was a real hallmark of that process was bringing so many of our functional groups together as stakeholders, getting the buy-in internally and helping, you know, really mold, you know, the tool that we chose and how we made that decision. So, flash forward, today, our apply process, I can get it done in 60 seconds because I still know all the buttons to push, but if you don't, we average, it's less than five minutes. And our apply process, oh, by the way, asks, you know, what is your security clearance and asks, you know, what are your certifications, you know, and it's not like, you know, we haven't dumbed it down to, you know, name, address, email, it's a full apply process that used to live in our ATS and take forever to complete. So, the real change that happened for us was being able to go from where we basically lost 99% of our mobile applicants, which is, you know, something that will keep all of us awake at night, to being able to convert even almost all of our mobile applicants. And today, 70% of the people who start an application at SAIC finish it, which is a very high completion rate and a great candidate experience on that front end. So, you know, just that alone has been a real important transformation for us, just on the very front end. Yeah, that's, so it really is all about candidate experience when you get down to the end. But I don't, I don't know that executive management understands that as well as they could or should, right? And you have to really sell that. Well, you know, just, you know, I've, I've sitting in that conference room with a laptop and a, and I phone, and like, here you go, do this. Try to reply, yep, yep, you know, and once, once they see it and, you know, and then, you know, I think that another thing that's really happened in the ensuing years, you know, I mean, when you were doing this in 2015, this would not have them case. But today, you know, digital transformation is a word that people know. A strong online consumer-like experience is something people expect. And that's, you know, whether you're on our board of directors or you're a recruiting coordinator or you're, you've never heard of us. We all have that expectation that we're going to hit, you know, buy that product and that we're going to be able to track it through the process. And it shows up at my house, I will be informed by a device that sits in my kitchen, right? So, a lot has changed, but it's kind of helped us be able to tell that story a little more effectively. Wouldn't it be great if we could send candidates a, a round box to play's music and lights up when your resume has been reviewed by a manager? Well, Craig, I think we should invent that and retire. Uh-huh. Yeah, you can use, you can use some of those devices for job searching. And all you have to do is say it, right? And it will give you some results, which is interesting. But I do think we should invent that. And I think at the very least, there should be a real good way that a candidate can just get a simple text message back saying, here's where you are in the process, right? And a little bit of automation goes a long way in that regard. And so I get a lot of, first of all, I want to commend you on shortening the apply process for one thing because that's one of the scores that we base and, you know, an employer brand audit on versus competitors. How many screens does it take for someone to get through your apply process? How long does it take versus your competitors? And if you can shorten that at all, you know, and in your situation, clearly there's a lot of a lot of hoops people have to go through to apply and, and you've done a good job. But then next, you know, very often when companies ask me about their tech stack, they say, you know, we need, we need AI. My first question is, why do you need AI? And they just think they do because everybody's talking about it. And that's not really necessarily true, right? I mean, a text application that sends a confirmation or some communication, it's not really AI. It's a little bit of machine learning and some process mapping. It's not complicated, but it should be done. It can save recruiters a lot of time. Agree. And, you know, I am also skeptical when people start saying things like AI because, you know, I've built some of this stuff and you're literally looking at the thing that's thinking behind the robot right now. That's right. You can hear my voice and, you know, and we are telling the robot what to do. And I tell my boss that all the time, you know, don't worry, the robots are not taking over. It's still us. That's right. Yeah. Well, and it's funny because when I hear, and there's a flip side to this conversation, which is, well, you know, machines can be less biased. And I have proven that and it's still humans that build the machines, right? The software, create the answer trees and do the scoring of the answers, all that stuff. Yeah. And so humans are biased and so there's inherent flaw there. Yep. But I think we're getting a little bit closer and, you know, I don't think AI is the answer for everything. So you mentioned earlier that you went through sort of the painful process of uprooting and existing CRM and implementing a new one. Did you put together a project team from operations and, you know, kind of all over the place to work? There's usually multiple work streams going on when you're doing a CRM evaluation and then implementation. So how did that go? Good question, and the entire process, all the credit really goes to our IT organization for, you know, building a terrific process where we had the ability to pull across functionally you're correct. So we had people from talent acquisition operations, talent acquisition proper, you know, because I was there, you know, we insisted on having some recruiters present, which I think it's sometimes not said that a lot of times the people who pick out recruiting software aren't the people who are using it or will ever have to use it. And, you know, so we've tried to build a team that was recruiter centric, which was terrific, but also include folks who could represent and be stakeholders from parts of the business. The people who are going to have to fund it. The people who are going to have to help us maintain it. The people who are going to have to run the servers and do all of the backend stuff and help us configure it, because as we just discussed, the robots really don't come pre-configured. So don't let them fool you. So that process was really nicely done and, you know, I still remember that scoring spreadsheet and having to go through and, you know, bit by bit by bit, do all of that. And then at the end, the results that came out of that process were different than what any of us expected, but because we had all those stakeholders involved, I think we arrived at the right decision. Yeah. And I think that's a good point. I think if you stick to, because it's easy to create your scoring system and then kind of fudge towards the score you want, and I think if you have people that aren't entrenched in recruiting as part of the process, but also recruiters as part of the process, then, you know, you do get a really good mean there. And the score is the score. And if you can stick to that, you're in really good shape. And so I love that it wasn't what you thought it would be. That's great. Yeah. In fact, the vendor we ended up picking was the one that I had thrown in at the end. Like, there are nine vendors on there, and I was like, hey, why don't we throw these guys on there and just see, because, you know, they had been sending me email communications and the stuff they were putting together was pretty sharp. And I was like, why not? You know, we've got these nine other people. We're going to be evaluated. And let's look at it. So. Oh, and the vendor that's been handing you for 12 months, that's Christ. Well, you know, it's, it's really interesting because, you know, you really, with CRM vendors, what I've really noticed is, you know, you've got the ones that really focus toward, you know, an executive audience. And then you've got ones that focus more on like college recruiting and stuff like that. And, you know, maybe a little bit of candidate experience. And then there's kind of a narrow middle where, you know, real recruitment and real marketing stuff can happen. I think that may have changed because it's now been a few years since we've done that process. But that's what I found at the time. And it was, I was really happy to have that objective process and I was really happy to have that input from my colleagues who had already done software implementations for other parts of the business. Right. Yeah. That's great. And that's a good point because at the end of the day, it's a software implementation. And that's never easy. I still have scars. Yeah. I worked hard. Well. And so, something else you said that, you know, recruiters aren't always there. They're included. The people using the software aren't always included in the process of selection and implementation. And I think that, you know, I think to myself all the time, there's all these recruitment software products that are built by a team of people who've never done recruitment. And it makes me cringe. Yeah. And I think the world is, is, is wrong. Well, Craig, maybe we'll fix it. I mean, I think that, you know, for folks like us, those who are in positions to make decisions and have sat in the chair, recently, you know, I do think it is potentially changing things. And, you know, there's always going to be components or times when you have to train your vendors. You know, because your business is special, you've got unique things, you speak slightly different languages. And that's cool. But, you know, recruiting is still recruiting in some ways. And, you know, when you do, when you just have engineers who are sort of making cool things, it can be frustrating when that person, you know, because if you think it candidate experience is important, well, you know, recruiter experience is also important. And are we pushing these buttons on the other end? Is it just because like the software told us to, we have to do that, you know, I think, you know, if more of us can really, you know, become engaged in this as a profession, right? This is not just a bunch of tips and tricks about how to do employment marketing. This is a profession. And it's more than that. And, you know, maybe we can, you know, sort of advance this a little bit and get people speaking our language a little bit more. Absolutely. And, you know, I say this all the time. You do have to engage with your vendor and direct the vendor to make them better. And when you do that, then other companies, other employers can then benefit from what you've done if you put in the work to mold that in the right direction, get the integrations you want, right? And really put together something that is replicable by that vendor for other employers. And one of the things I see all the time is talent acquisition leaders want to implement the software, but strip out the services layer of that software implementation after the fact. And then there's no one to wind the clocks. And your vendor is not nearly as responsive because, right, you've basically taken most of the profit out of the deal for them. The software is kind of a giveaway. Yes, that's 100% true. And we had actually learned this through having a legacy recruitment marketing system. So today, you know, if you're hearing me and you don't have a recruitment marketing system, please hear me as a voice of experience, you know, having had a legacy recruitment marketing system that was acquired twice after you bought it and was then owned by a giant behemoth. And those of you who have been in the industry, you know who, you know who this is, it was almost impossible to get support. If you wanted a single word changed on your career site, it was a work order and $5,000. It was, I mean, it was like, and it took forever. So, you know, so if what had happened with that situation was that you sort of had something that was extraordinarily transformational at the time and still has things about it that are even aspirational today for some systems. But you had this great system and then it was galled up. And by the time it got to the other end, you know, it kind of lost its soul. And you know, when that happens, you know, it kind of still mechanically does the things that it needs to do, but it's not evolving. And the suggestions for how to keep it current are not welcome. Right. What we're really trying to do is just try to figure out how to get you on to the next product. And a lot of times what we found is that the next iteration of that product was not best in class. And it was not right for us. So what we had to do was do it full analysis of what our needs were and then create an answer to those questions with an inventor. Right. Yeah. You may remember I went through the process to get a new vendor. And then the legacy vendor said, oh, but you can have our CRM for free because you've got all these credits with us. And I ended up being forced to implement two CRMs at once. Talk about a nightmare. That does not sound like fun at all. No. It was not fun. And so yes, yes, people listening to this keep that relationship with your vendor good and pay for the services part of the contract. And it's well worth it because the best vendors want that kind of almost daily interaction with their customer. It's that too. But Craig, you know, back in, like, if we were to flash back five, 10 years ago, the rate of obsolescence for a new technology, you know, you could keep something. I mean, you could keep a computer for five years. And it'd be fine. Today, you know, things become obsolete faster and faster and faster. So you really can't count on, you know, and it's not your vendor's fault. You know, they're under pressure to modernize and, you know, become innovative and all of that kind of stuff too, just like we are. So, you know, if you're, if you can't buy something, expect it to stay static and never grow. It's not in that world anymore. Yeah. And a lot of that evolution comes from customer feedback, right? I mean, where we, where we push those vendors into advancing is, is where they make their, their best strides. I'm a firm believer that, you know, software vendors aren't the enemy. They're just, they don't understand yet where you need to be. And we can, we can fix that. Absolutely. Yeah. And being able to communicate that is, is extremely important and making, you know, because it is an investment for both of you. Oh, yeah. Well, so you've successfully now put together a combination of recruitment marketing and sourcing to, you know, fill the top of your funnel and convert applicants better. And it's working and you're able to, you know, bring a lot of your processes in house and, and make it all, you know, happen in the nest. So how do you feel about it? What do you think the future is and, you know, what were the best wins there for you? Good question. I think, you know, I'm thinking about a comment that I got from one of my vendors that I'm one of the only people that he works with that runs both the recruitment marketing and the sourcing thing out of the same shop. And I wouldn't want to do it in any, any other way. I mean, I was, you know, I have a degree in, in marketing, but, you know, that's, that was on paper. So, yeah. Yeah. Literally. They don't teach you that much in marketing. They don't teach at all. Writing those newsletters and, you know, newspaper articles was not, you know, it's kind of useful, but not that much. So, you know, so my career as a recruiter and as a source are really informed a lot of this. And then, you know, so it's then sort of like evolving into, you know, what is the recruiter of the future? And I think that recruitment and marketing are sort of converging toward the same place. And so, which is why I disagree with you that recruiters should be in the CRM and should have some capability to touch that technology and work with it and build campaigns and do things within their own lines of business, especially at a big enterprise like the one that I'm at where we have lots of different jobs and lots of different career paths. So we agree to disagree on that. But I think that where the marketing and sourcing complement each other so nicely is that the sourcing organization, you know, when you have hard to fill, hard to find, highly cleared, the things, the people that are really legitimately rare in nature, you kind of have to have a brute force operation to be able to go seek and find them. That's it. You just have to be able to go find them. And you have to resource that team to be able to do that. So, you know, we built that part of the operation first because it answers your most immediate problem. I need a systems engineer who's done model-based systems engineering in Maryland, you know, to go do this work. That has a top secret. Oh, yeah. Good luck. Yeah, secret clearance. That's what you're making so easy. Yeah. So, you know, so being able to do that while you're while we built the recruitment marketing piece where, you know, I call our fast followers of our employer, of our regular SAIC brand, you know, the employment brand is different. But, you know, because we're a government contractor, we really don't have a consumer brand. So it's a little, it is a little different. You know, so we have built the recruitment marketing function to be able to provide greater volume and do some of the heavier lifting around getting applicants into our funnel more efficiently, which really, and what we've seen, is it has enabled that sourcing organization. They don't get bogged down into things that ultimately could have, you know, easily found applicants if only we had a little engine behind it. So, you know, you kind of just see what's happening is efficiency. And it's kind of nice to see, you know, where we can do a little bit of hiring in advance of demand or looking and building talent networks in advance of demand and, you know, creating relationships with people who didn't know us before and reinforcing those messages with marketing so that when they do see something, and they're like, oh, I recognize them. Yeah, you shown up in their peripheral vision a few times, which is great. Correct. That's the game. So, yeah, so the marketing piece becomes a force multiplier for the brute force of going and finding the hardest to find people on the planet. Well, that's a quote of a quote right there. Okay, great. So, Amy, let's shift gears a little bit. Tell us a little bit about what you like to do in your free time. What do you got going on this weekend? You know, let's get to know Amy a little bit. Okay. So, something afternoons, I take a pottery class. I started, you know, and this is a one of the things that I'm proud of because I'm not good at it. I love it. Yeah. My mother and grandmother shared a kiln. They literally did it that much that they actually fired stuff at my grandmother's house. Oh, my gosh. And so, I grew up watching this happen. And so, I'm kind of fascinated that you're not good at it, getting into it and that's coming up on Sunday. I love it. Yeah. I started. I had started 2020 and I thought I should get out more, isn't that funny? 2020? I should get out more. Yeah. Yeah. Joe, come to you, Amy. Correct. So, yeah. I really have a very erotic sense of humor. And obviously the class was delayed, so I just started potting in June. I'm not very good at it, but I have found that it is a, it's really cathartic. And it helps me, it helps me think. It's when I come up with my good ideas for my day job. How about you? What's up for this weekend? I love that. So, not much. We've got the kids here this weekend. And it is going to be in the tens in the temperature. And sorry, Sunday, we're going to get blizzard-like ankle-nil weather. And it's going to be real fun hanging out inside the house. Yeah. You know, yeah. You know, yeah. So, Texas and ice go together, except Texas ice and driving do not, if I recall, from when I lived down there. Right. Well, and it was just yesterday morning. We had black ice on one of the highways in Fort Worth, and there was a hundred car pilot with multiple fatalities, so I'm not, that's right, we're not driving anywhere. I can, fortunately, I can walk to the convenience store, it's a, it's a little country corner store. It's two blocks from my house. If I really need something, I can, I can go to home. We're not out of dog food, you know. That's right. But we're not going to have a, we're going to have a fun time being great endorsement. Perfect. That sounds like fun. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully that weather doesn't come up here and keep me from my pottery class. It's, it's slow-moving, so you, you'll, you'll get it at some point, but it's, it'll be a while. All right. Well, Amy, thank you very much for joining us today on Inside Talent. We appreciate you. All right. Thanks for having me. Craig, this was fun. Thank you for listening to Inside Talent. Learn more about the future of talent today at Inside Talent.org where you can sign up for regular updates and you can subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.