Amy Berg (It's Never Over, Jeff Buckley)

[Music] Leonard Cohen's last tour blew through Los Angeles, not like a hurricane, but like a prayer. He was dressed in a black suit and fedora, looking like the ghost of Frank Sinatra. And when he took a neon stage to sing, it made me want to cry. By this time, he'd been a monk, a poet, and a rock star. In the end, he was simply a priest of song. The greatest song he ever wrote was sung best, not by him, but by Jeff Buckley. It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth, the minor fall, the major lift, the baffled king composing hallelujah. Jeff Buckley's rising genius was cut short like the last sapling in an ancient forest, and those who love his work have missed him ever since. I feel the same way about River Phoenix, and I miss him still. Amy Berg's new film is called "It's Never Over, Jeff Buckley," and it's her love song, in documentary form, to this man who was a singer, guitar virtuoso, and the orphan son of Tim Buckley, but who only ever wanted to be remembered as a songwriter. Without further ado, I give you a conversation with director Amy Berg. Amy Berg, welcome back to the podcast. So nice to see you again. Nice to see you again. How's it going? Good, good, good. I guess last we did Phoenix Rising, it's been a couple of years now, and you're back with Jeff Buckley. Yeah, I'm very excited about this one. This one's awesome. Absolute pleasure, enjoyed to watch, and I will tell you, I knew the sort of iconography of Buckley's story, like the iconic rendition of "Hallelujah," which is the sort of masterpiece of masterpieces, but I didn't really know his story, and when I came into this, my best friend is a rabid Buckley fanatic, and he's like, "I've been waiting for this movie for years." But for me, it was such a joy because I think it works on multiple levels, which is for somebody like me who didn't really know the contours of the story well. It's this amazing, primer and kind of baptism in the music and the life, and it also works for the super, you know, the hyper fan who kind of knows everything. Talk about how this one came into the world and how Jeff Buckley walked into your life, and then turned into this film. Yeah, well, just to first answer your first statement, not question, but I think like going into this, I knew that most people probably only knew Jeff from "Hallelujah," but I was aware of the super fanatic, you know. You have to be. You have to be. Yeah, so I knew that there was no way I would be able to give them everything they wanted because like there's a million ways to tell a story, so I decided to really go for an intimate insular approach so that they could experience him from a very close perspective and get the feeling of what it was like to be back in the 90s and what listening to his album for the first time watching his performances, all of that because I knew that there was a chance to not satisfy everybody. So I just tried to kind of make something in the middle that would, you know, that would reach many folks. I have a long history. I feel like this is probably getting boring for people I've said so many times now, but it is kind of like my life story is trying to make this movie. My whole career has really. Yes, I mean, I only, I made my first film "Deliver Us from Evil" in 2006 and I wasn't, I wasn't trying to become a filmmaker. I just wanted to make that film because I was already very involved in like reporting on that story. So then, you know, not knowing what to do next, all I could think of was this because this is the thing that I'm so passionate about. And so I have been trying for over 10 years to get the rights and every time I finished a film, I would reach out to Mary and she would usually say no, Mary G. Bear, Jeff's mother, but in 2019, she did say yes and that was like kind of a game changer. So in a weird, like, spiritual way, it kind of feels like his music and the idea of this film has been like carrying me through my career. So that's so cool. I love the long gestating projects because I think all of us, you know, who do this have the ones that you've always wanted to make, you know, and even like, you know, you think that's Corsese or whatever. There's like the ones that he's been like carting around for 30 years trying to get, you know, trying to get done. And it's such a joy when it finally kind of comes to fruition and comes into the world. But I want to go back to something you just said, which is the kind of the intimate approach that you decided to take with this. And one of the things that I felt very distinctly within, you know, literally the first few edits of the movie is, we get this very intimate portrait of the women in Jeff's life. And I thought that was a very elegant and perhaps simple in kind of all the right ways, you know, when that's the right approach. But you start to triangulate him from these, the women who loved him in some capacity or another without a sort of in-depth explanation of exactly who they are out of the gate. Talk about that sort of that departure point and framing it with that. Yeah. Well, there's two things. One is that it's very honest because that is exactly where I started. I knew I couldn't tell this movie with one or two of those women. I needed all three of them. So I kind of met them where they were at. And that was the beginning of my process making the film. But I think on a more of a metaphorical level, I received the, the Mary said yes, Mary's his mom said yes in 2019. And I started watching down his interviews, which I had seen a bunch back. We met in 2012, 2013. She gave me a little bit of, you know, a glimpse of what was in the archive. And so when I started listening to him in 2019, three years into the women's march in America, I was like, whoa, Jeff was a feminist way before I was even a feminist. He was like right there speaking on behalf of, you know, all the women who were not empowered for doing amazing things in his life and in the world. And he was so, he was so well read and so eloquent about international affairs. And he's turned philosophy and Nostra Fatte Ali Khan. And he was just so just, uh, he felt like a person that had wisdom, you know, and I wanted to embrace that. And so it felt right to me. So that you bring up another couple of things, which are there is this joy and nostalgia, I think, for all of us who lived through the 90s and at the time, like, sputtered our way through not realizing this was like going to be the high watermark of the like dystopian hellscape to come. So, so, so, like, it's such a joy to kind of revisit now. But what, what's also I think you're making a beautiful point is there's something very prescient about Jeff, right? The sort of evolved version of a, you know, in this kind of time period of this massive, you know, what I call crisis of masculinity, right? Where it's like the toxicity and insanity and all this stuff. There's something incredibly, um, sensitive, sweet, empathetic, joyous kind about him as a human being. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about, and normally I sort of tend towards craft, but I'd love to go to theme a little bit, you know, kind of approach it more as a film critic than a filmmaker, because I, there's such a richness of themes that you explore here. Talk about kind of how you, what your window into that is. Yeah. And for me, my, my craft is always emotion. So I think that it does overlap because I think that I, I really spend a lot of time in all the films that I make trying to make sure that there's an emotional resonance for the audience. And so, oh my god, I'm sorry, I just lost my train of thought. No, go with, so, so, go with it, let me go with this. Let me reframe it for you, which is, to me, I saw there's this kind of coming of age story. There's, there are a series of love stories. Right. So, thematically, it was working on in sort of a number of genres. So talk about theme a little bit. Okay. Yeah. So just to, yeah, to follow up on that, I think that because the 90s were so toxicly male, I don't know if you can say it like that, but they were like, it was so aggressive and, you know, full of testosterone musically. I'm not, I don't even know that the musicians who were doing that kind of music were even like that, because you see Kurt Cobain and he's actually not really as heavy, you know, offstage as the music indicates. But Jeff was able to kind of cut through all of that. And I was like the first person in line at the, you know, first time in Toronto played in Los Angeles. I was like, you know, at Javraja with 40 other people. And I loved all of that heavy music. But I also noticed what it does to you. It kind of disconnects you from your body. And I mean, it's probably why I Chris Cornell left Soundgarden because I was too intense, you know. So I think that like Jeff being able to come out in '94, right in the middle of all that, and still kind of reach so many people, spoke to this underlying fluidity in all of us that was not as touchable as it is today. And so that's why the theme of his gender was a big one for me. And gender also goes with genre because of the '90s, but I really think that the fact that he was very small, he was five four and he was beautiful, he had female features, and he was bullied in school, he was made fun of, he was called a geek for having a guitar. And so he found his voice, he became an expert at guitar, you know, - Replicate. - Replicate, right. Yeah, exactly. He was a mimic, he was a performer, he was silly, and he just went into his head. So all of that became what somebody described the '90s as like, there was like a division between the men who went to grunge concerts. There were people who were kind of nerdy and into arts, like, you know, I guess I would fit in that category maybe you as well. - Yup, yup. - And then there was still like the leftover like metalheads that were really toxically male. And it was Moby who actually said this. I thought this was really smart. And like there was kind of not an acknowledgement of that at the time, but Jeff was one of those people that you can kind of use as a measure. Like your friend who was excited about this film, I don't know if he was excited about it openly in the '90s, but I've talked to a lot of men who said they weren't really allowed to say it out loud if they love Jeff Buckley. - Right. - So I don't even know if I answered your question, but that is one of the themes that I was going for, which is like that kind of underlying feminin, feminine characteristics, the fluidity, the ability to speak and say like, like there's a scroll on TikTok who has a video that says, "My boyfriend says I love you, but Jeff Buckley says he's the tear that hangs inside my soul forever." So she's staying home that night. And he had a way of reaching women and men and everybody on this very deep, real place in this great, real place. And it was so real, just like the song says. It was so real. So that was one of the themes, yeah. - Just of, as an abandoned, essentially, son who ends up in the same lane in some way, both fighting against inheriting the mantle and very naturally inheriting it and taking it into his own very unique place. Talk about that because I thought that was very deftly woven through the film. - Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting as a theme because Jeff, you know, he met his father once. It's like, you know, he looked like him. He had some kind of similar voice, similar, you know, he had an octave range that matched his father. He had a lot of the characteristics, but he never got the benefits. He didn't get the hugs and kisses and all the things that go along with, you know, being a son. So to be introduced as the son of Tim Buckley over and over again, when he wasn't really the son of Tim Buckley, he was a distant, you know, blood relative, I guess. So that hurt, and that hurt all the way through his career, that never went away because Tim had a similar type of fanbase as Jeff, that very fanatical kind of, you know, hardcore. So I was very interested in the family dynamic and I think Jeff, you know, being a feminist, a lot of that came from having to raise his mom, you know, and he learned from a very young age. They raised each other. They were both young and learning from like an absence of male role models in the house. So I think that, you know, that hit me pretty hard. I couldn't imagine what it was like for him. It was all over his journals. It was like a constant battle. He bought, you know, his father's music and then destroyed it. And so I thought, you know, that, yeah, that was definitely an important one. And you could see it in his demeanor when, you know, when he was dealing with it. Well, and it's refracted all throughout his life from like, you know, playing at the sort of, you know, reluctantly and fearfully playing at the first tribute concert. Yeah. It's this life long wrestling with that shadow that's cast over. Right. I had another theme I wanted to just say. Yeah, go. Just like the thing that I thought was one of the most important things about Jeff in that ended up being part of his death was this impulsive behavior that I think comes very natural to artists. I think that artists get into a tunnel and maybe don't have like control of their reflexes or. I mean, there was a story I didn't put in the film that I thought was so kind of funny and sweet. And Jeff was given a bouquet of roses. He just like bit into the rose. He liked to like really, you know, just, and there's like a bit in the film where he like fixes the guy's eyebrow and that in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's just like Jeff was so impulsive and it was important for me to show that he wasn't part of the 27 club and he died differently. You know, he died in an impulsive, happy moment looking at a body of water and thinking I want to take a swim and just, you know, singing leads up and jumping in the water. I mean that it's kind of, you know, it makes the mythology of Jeff so much more kind of, I don't know, Richard, Richard. Richard, yeah, Richard complex. Yeah. So there's a beautiful line in there that is said, you know, all those things that feel so urgent and scary fall away, you know, when you're when you're young and they sort of they're so consuming and sort of with the, you know, the gift or curse or whatever it may be of time. Those, the terror falls away and you're able to kind of blossom into who you are. And I thought that was incredibly poignant idea that really kind of echoed throughout the film. Talk about that a bit. Yeah, I mean, you know, Joan said that so eloquently and I think like you're in your 20s and you're trying to figure out who you are in the world. And then this, you know, this artist who gave us some of the best music obviously was so traumatized as a child. And so then he had to, he had to wrestle with like fame, attachment, how to be a man. He was just trying to figure things out. And I think so many men can relate to that. And having a father that died young also puts this kind of like prophetic idea into the universe. And I think that he kind of just needed to like, he clearly needed to get away from everybody. He moved to Memphis, he was alone and he was wrestling with stuff and I think that it's just so tragic that he didn't have like that, you know, really good therapist to get him through that moment in his life. Because I think he was like on the precipice of it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's part of the tragedy, right? Is it's like he was working his way through, working toward the next record, and toward the peace with his mother. So zoom back out for a second, too. You've been like carting around this idea for decades, dying to make this film. You finally get the blessing from Mary. What is the process, you know, from there? How do you go about putting together financing? Where do you go to? I see you're working with Plan B on this. And like, what's the, what's the genesis of this? It was not the best time to try to find a partner when I got the right. Let's just remember 2019 and white men just for a second because that was like, oh great. And I've done tons of films about women of all sorts of themes and, you know, all sorts all over the world. I've covered a lot of women and I was kind of in this moment where I was waiting for this moment, waiting for this project. And it was like, for you to sell this too. Right, exactly the wrong time. And now that you finally get your hands on it, right? But I had this relationship, well, first it was the pandemic. So I stayed home and just like watched all the archive first. And then I had this relationship with Ryan Heller at Topic. And I knew he was a total music junkie and he was like, he was in a band. And so I just like email you played your fan card is what you do. I know exactly like, right. Yeah. Like how about Jeff Buckley and he literally I was in New York and I just emailed it to him because somebody had said no way. I think it was a 24. They were like, no, we don't get it. And, and he called me right then. He like called me immediately and it was on. So that was cool. And then I met, free mantle. I met Mandy Chang and Jen Mullin and they they rounded it out. But it took a while. That wasn't like instant. So there was a lot of stopping and starting and stopping and starting. So anyway, that it was a great combination. We all were coming from different places. And I, you know, there were a couple of people that were not super fans. And that was great because I didn't want to like make a geographical film about him. I wanted it to be real and raw. And yeah, one of my producers, Christine, even had a relationship with Amy Mann and told me that story. And Amy, and she didn't tell me that Amy still had that tablecloth, which is so amazing. - Yeah. - And so like that really felt like a right addition to the film. So yeah, it just, it came together. We stopped, we started, we went down quite a bit. There were a lot of people were, you know, getting sick in the pandemic and needing to take a break. So it gave me a lot of time to percolate. And I remember Sundance was interested in the film last year, not this year. And we almost sent them a cut. And I was like, no, it's not ready. And we ended up editing another year. And so here we are today. Okay, you're getting a film like this where you sort of get this amazing archival, but you have no idea what you're gonna need to shoot, what you are gonna shoot. How in the hell do you budget a movie like this? - Yeah, I mean, all I had for a reference was Janice Jockelin. So I literally just went to my old budget and I knew it cost two million. And I knew it was supposed to cost like 1.5 million, but by the time we ended up paying for all the archive and the music, it went up. So we just had to kind of use that as a base. That said, you never know what exists. You don't know if there's gonna be a prime piece of archive that somebody's gonna charge you more for, but I did know that in the music community there is a pretty general rule about MFN and we were able to get a lot of great deals on this film, but it is kind of a crappchute. So do your best. - Right, it's voodoo and then you adjust as the cards come in. - Right, so we kept our team very small throughout. We had like two people on staff and then we were just going. So that's how we did it. - Yeah, the budget, it grew a bit because you just, you can't, it's all a guessing game in the beginning. - Well, that's exactly what I mean. 'Cause it's like there's no way to really wrap your arms around what it is, but you need enough to like, and to me I was thinking, and you've sort of articulated this already, but it's time in the edit for a film like this to cook that you like, and it's unknown how much time you're gonna need, but you know what's gonna need a lot of cooking time. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, the thing is that with the two music films that I made, I did notice that people are pretty responsive to the favored nation's clause, and so I have to say we got a lot of really good deals, but it's also kind of trying to find out who owns what. It's really difficult. We, you know, we, this is, we had a very small team, so I was slightly involved in that, but my producer was like day to day on it, and she, you know, we all were kind of learning on the job with this one, 'cause it was kind of like fishing. - Right, right. - But anyway, we got there. - How do you work in the edit? Like what's process wise, you know, do you sort of card it out? Do you talk it out? Do you write it out? Do you just jump in and start cutting? What's your, what's your process on this? - Well, usually I write like a really long script to start with and let the editor start assembling with that, and then we go to cards, but I have to say that my incredible animators, Sarah Gooner's daughter from Iceland, was also involved round one. - Early early, I was wondering, because the animation is so present, and sort of so carefully and definitely woven through. That was the next question of mine, but go ahead, sorry. - Yeah, she's amazing. We worked together on the Adnan Saeed film, and she is just so great with like teenage kind of visuals. She and I started dreaming this up in 2019. We met early on and she, yeah, she lives in Iceland now, but she was in Brooklyn at the time. But we were like watching all the videos from the 90s and trying to create the kind of texture and the culture and just really bring that to life. And then I worked with a few different editors and one of my editors, Brian Kate, who's based in New York, was really helpful in that early 90s East Village look. He was there, he lived there at the time, so we were able to really capture that. - The world in the body. - The world, yeah. And then Stacy Goldett, who I finished the film with, she's like very, she and I really bond on emotion. We're working together on my next film right now, and we were just like really trying to let the emotion sit and breathe and feel more. So there were different phases, every editor, they all love each other and it was like kind of everyone brought something different to it. But yeah, so that's how we do it. - It's funny, I often think of this sort of edit in terms of what the baseball metaphor, which is like there are starting pictures, there are closing pictures, there are pictures that get you through the dark innings in the middle. And the ability to kind of, which is tricky, right? When it's like, okay, now we do need a handoff or another voice or whatever. How do you navigate that when you get to it where it's like, okay, this, the 90s Greenwich Village vibe is nailed here. Now I need to be feeling more deeply or letting it land in the kind of handoffs and transitions between folks. How do you handle that? - Well, okay, well, each one was kind of budgetary, each decision, like the first editor, Andrew Syoff, who I worked with for many years. We really just worked on the assembly and like putting all the archive into line. It was probably like a three and a half hour cut. The first one. - Like get it up on its feet so we got something to, yeah. - Totally. And then, yeah, then I had a specific ask for the Connor, who came in next, we were trying to get like a more dispassionate man view of Jeff, which we got. And then I worked on fluidity and context with Brian. But each one had like, we had two months with this person, three months with Brian and then another three months with Stacey. So it was just like, this is what we're gonna achieve in this period of time. And some people don't work that way. I, this is the second time I've done it. And the first time I did it was on Janus. So I'm kind of getting used to like music films need a lot of breath and it might not be the, you know, it might not be the same person all the way throughout. But I did, yeah, I did have the closer, the Mariana Rivera, Brian. I was like, come on, he's my closer, but anyway, yeah. - Okay, so go back to the animation for a second. And the kind of like, I'm a big believer in, you know, there's sort of a contract that's made with an audience, which is, hey, there's a certain like rhythm that I'm going to give you. There's a certain level of emotional depth. There's a visual grammar that I'm going to kind of train you to understand the consistency of. And a significant piece of that in this film is the animation and the kind of different uses in different places, whether it's affecting archival or using lyrics of the song, sort of as a graphic element that you are taking in. Talk about that design and sort of how you came to that. - Yeah, okay, so it had its phases as well. I mean, in the beginning, we had been talking about rotoscoping and using like Jeff's body and his eyes and putting something over his face and trying to like create mixed medium. And I just felt weird about that at a certain point. It felt too animated. So, and I, so I kind of went against the idea of animating Jeff in the movie. The stick figure I called it, the spastic stick, was from his journal and I loved that from the beginning and it felt like Led Zeppelin to me. So that became a very easy three beat theme that worked really well in the film. The only issue with the only like animated scene that where I ended up needing to kind of see Jeff moving was the St. Anne's show. But that, I just, I needed to feel his presence there and it was challenging because God, I know somebody has footage of that show. - Of course, of course. - It's just we could not find it and nobody has ever seen it and I really just felt like we needed to feel Jeff. So that was the only scene that I decided to like bring him into life as a moving person. And textures, 90s, grain, video, you know, analog days, all of that was really easy to create with Sarah. So it was just about picking the spots where we wanted to kind of pull out a little bit and I should say that I didn't really want to pull out. I wanted to go deeper and so the idea was to get into his head. So hopefully that worked. I know some of the reviews have said something about like that throwing certain people off for me and most of the people who really get it, they go deeper with Jeff when they go into those scenes and I hope that, you know, that comes across for you because it's very important for me that you stay with the film all the way through, you know. - I can't believe you actually read the reviews. I swore that off the first time the New York Times destroyed a film of mine. I was like, "We never reading one again because you only remember the bad shit." You don't remember me. - No, that's not true. There's only happened like twice, but I get sent to the reviews. Sometimes I don't read them, but on this film I've been reading a lot. So yeah, but that's just, I liked, you know, that was at Sundance anyway. And I like to see what people were thinking and that was just what I thought that was interesting. And I guess some people just don't like animation. - Right, right. You're gonna get that bias where any version or any execution and it's like, no, not my jam. But what you did do, and I think this is a really interest, this is kind of the magic trick of the film to me, which is that ability to put you in Jeff's headspace. And I think you do this, like there's a couple of techniques that I noticed. in there and tell me what I'm missing and what else there is. But the magic trick is this, you can't sit down and interview him, right? So you're doing in some big sense, like the massive right around, like all the questions that you might have have is only being cold from, and he was brilliant, articulate, and spoke quite a bit. And yet you do this sometimes we're seeing the interview, sometimes we're seeing imagery over the top of it, but there is this very inside his head, intimate connection with him, which I think is the whole, you know, one of the primary joys of the film. How do you craft that knowing, like you'll never get to ask a question of the person you would most love to sit down with? Right. And with Jeff, what I knew is that he was plugged into a lot of things all the time and like he was a child of television and music. Like he watched TV all night and kind of was sleepless even in middle school. So I just wanted to create this world of like what he saw and felt. And I think that was the only way to do that. So it's POV, you're literally dropping us in his shoes to experience the world as he experienced it. And the best way for me to do that was the love scene with Rebecca. I mean, we did bits of it in his childhood, but when he falls in love with Rebecca on the subway, then we were able to bring in a lot of like imagery and yeah, things that he was attracted to to just kind of get his world. And then I think you stay with him from a beautiful, beautiful, okay. Last question for you, which is, I guess it's a twofold question. So take this wherever you want. But like we are in this super strange phase of the medium of the documentary where on the one hand, you know, if you're making stuff for the streamers, you have tens of millions of people watching it and yet there, you know, there's these very tight strictures and you're kind of getting noted to death and all this. Then there are these like amazing super personal films like this one that you make, right? And it really feel, you can feel the like O'Tour's voice. And then there's the complexity of distribution. And like this, like seeing this on the big screen is like what an amazing gift. Like talk about where the state of the business is in terms of sort of streamer versus theatrical tension, personal versus kind of corporate filmmaking. And specifically how you decide to bring this film into the world. Okay. So that's a great question. I feel like this film has an opportunity to reach the exact audience that I wanted it to reach in the way that I wanted it to get there. So I'm very excited and I feel blessed that we were able to do the deal that we did with Magnolia and then streaming on HBO later in the year. I think the streamers, I take HBO out of this equation, but I think like the other streamers have kind of created a very difficult situation for filmmakers right now. And a lot of these departments are folding. And so it leaves Netflix as like the only buyer kind of. Yep, yep, yep. And there's a trend toward kind of the big magnification of the, you know, it becomes content rather than films made by filmmakers. Yes. And there's also like a fat cat element of like documentary production companies have changed the industry as well. And that unfortunately make it waters down the content. It makes it not, you know, there's no way to do three things at once. I mean, I spent five years on this film. I don't know how anyone could be doing five shows at once and doing them well. So I guess that's just where the industry is, but I think that if we were to go back to what was working 10 years ago and kind of maybe take the budgets down a little bit, take the time to make them let the directors and the staff and the crew, you know, make the money that they need to make a living to keep making these films. And people start going to theaters. It would be amazing. That's, you know, the hope. I mean, I don't know are we two, are we two set on watching everything from home? Maybe I don't know. I hope not. I really hope not. And I feel like there are a few indie films that are doing really well right now. And this is a nice moment. So let's ride it. I really hope this film performs theatrically. It's I do too for your sake and all of our sakes because it's like it's that experience of, you know, an authored film in the theater where you really want to like see it big and be, you know, see it in the dark and be immersed in it. And I will say, you know, at this time, in these times of crisis, so to speak, right? The medium is in crisis. There is opportunity. And I will say film after film that Magnolia is releasing theatrically right now. I'm like, fuck yeah. Yeah. And the movies, you know, it's great. And this is a film of first for me and for Magnolia, I guess in terms of like how many people watched the trailer and pre-sales and like, I saw this when I was at Sundance. You know how at Sundance, you have that one Salt Lake City screening. Well, I went down there and the theatre manters like we had people here since noon lined up outside and it was like a 6 p.m. screening. The crowd afterwards, you know, people had seen him across the street at the Zephyr and Salt Lake City and there was like a whole, like, just a moment. And I think the 90s is, you know, definitely a thing right now, as you said earlier. Okay. Very last thing for you, which is if there was one thing that you wanted, I don't know, one person you loved to take away from this movie, like what's the secret personal thing in here for you that you want to, that you want somebody to like carry away? Well, I'm going to throw this to Alice and Clayman because she called me after seeing it at Sundance and she told me, she was in tears, she was very moved and she said, I just want to make art right now. And I got teary in that moment because that is the best thing that this movie could do is make you feel like you want to go make something. So that's the answer for you. I feel sad, beautiful. Nice to see you. Great luck with the film. I think it's awesome and I hope it's mashes. Okay. Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you to Amy Berg for making this film and sharing your time with us and thank you to Jeff Buckley and thank you to Leonard Cohen. See you next time on The Dangerous Heart of the Documentary. The Dangerous Heart of the Documentary is a Tillermann Films production, produced by Jacob Miller, music by Zyte Punk, Graham Tracy and James Carroll. It's distributed by Jake Brennan and Brady Sadler through Double Elvis Productions. Thank you for listening. [BLANK_AUDIO]