America’s Stoic Lawyer: "Toxic People CRAVE Your Reaction" How to Make Manipulators Powerless

How do you stay so calm and a world that is trying to keep you angry? What voice are you listening to? You know, if you're mad all the time, then the question is, "What are you watching? Why are you watching it?" It's hard to be mad when you're not constantly looking at your phone. The type of stuff that gets us really upset at this, what they call it, rage, bait kind of thing, it's when you're willingly going into it. You're allowing it to upset you. And so it's more of that deeper philosophy of what voice are you listening to? Why are you watching what you're watching? And I believe, I'm somebody that believes of what you pour in, that's what you're going to get out. So how do you stay more calm? You practice things that are more calming. You find ways to go outside and take a walk. You find ways to have healthy boundaries with your phone and not be on it until 2 a.m. in your bed. And the question of, what's the first thing you look at when you wake up? That generally shows where your heart's at. What do you reach for when you first wake up? Is it your phone? Is it a book? Is it a journal? What is it that's usually where your mind is going? So if you want to have things that are more calming to your mind, it can't be the phone. Do you struggle with that? Is that something do you consume a lot of social media sometimes? No. I truly, Jack, I don't have social media on my phone. Yeah, I could give you my phone. There's no social media on it. So I'm at a point where I can make videos or give advice and then I've been able to have amazing people. I'm a team who I send it to and they can post it because it's not a healthy place. And anybody who's a creator knows where you post it immediately what you're doing. You're looking for views. You're trying to see what your followers, what are your stats and it can just eat at you. Yes. If a young guy wakes up tomorrow, has to check his phone and he sees something that makes him really angry because as a trial lawyer, you've dealt with crisis conflict consistently. What's your routine for like 60 seconds after you see something that makes you mad? You hear something that makes you mad like what do you kind of go through? Your breath is really one of the biggest things that's going to pull you down. Once your heart rate hits over 100 BPM, you're flooded and that's what's going to happen. You have to find some healthy outlet is going to allow you to calm yourself down. So if you find that you're looking at something online, watching some video and it gets you really elevated, you're going to have to find time to pause, time out and put your mind somewhere else, whether that's in an argument, whether that's me disagreeing with you on something. When you hit that moment, it's going to be gone, but the overview, like where my brain goes, is okay, how would I walk somebody through taking their mind from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset? Like, how could I say there's not enough good in the world, things are always bad, nothing's ever enough, it can never be good enough. I mean, that's the mentality that you're feeding in that moment versus how can there be room enough for both the good and the bad? I told you before this interview that I really love stories. What's the most intense, high-stake situation you've been in as a trial lawyer where staying calm helped you win? There was a case that I had, I was representing an elderly man, he was a janitor and the person who'd sued him was the daughter of a judge from Louisiana, all right, so not from Texas. And they had sued this janitor saying that he ran a red light, okay. The argument was, for me, was that this janitor had gone the same route every single day for the last 30 something years. I mean, he didn't even get through junior high, all right? He immediately went and has been the janitor of this elementary school for older, more than I've been alive. Always went the same route, always went and got his McDonald's, the sausage biscuit, his coffee and kept going in. Well, the plane of the person who sued him, this was her first time through town, all right. And my argument was, to anybody in the jury was, okay, who here has more experience of going through this intersection. I was able to find a lot of the video footage and argue and find one of the, a truck driver who was also there on the scene and saw it unfold. And so right in that moment, I remember you're offering up a piece of evidence that I wanted to get the video in. Big piece of footage. Well, the plane of attorney who was friends with the judge, was much older than me, was arguing why this videotape couldn't be authenticated in some way. Which I already got this stuff from the state. And so the judge, sometimes, it doesn't matter what the law shows, he wasn't going to let the video in. So I had in that moment, know that how I responded and reacted, could make all the difference in his case, whether he was going to be, whether a large verdict, they were trying to put millions of dollars on this guy who did not have that money. And so you have that really high sense of, I have to protect him because I believe him because I didn't run that red light in this car accident. And so I had to be able to breathe through it because if I acted upset, or as if I disagreed with the judge, or like, come on, you gotta be kidding me. Was a jury going to think, the jury is going to think, I'm not being respectful, something hurt my case. And whatever I'm about to talk next, I'm disappointed that I didn't get that information in, and so that's, that's a way of trying to color my case in a particular way. So what I had to do was keep it all in and not in a bad sense of like, I had all this anger, I had to breathe it all out and know that I'm still speaking the truth. I haven't lost anything just because somebody disagrees with me, does not make me a bad person, just because the judge does a rule in my favor, doesn't make me a bad attorney. And so it's knowing where my identity is, and what I'm doing, and my acting and alignment with what I believe in my sense of justice, my sense of advocacy. And we won the trial, so I was able to have a successful verdict for him. But that's, that to me was one of the highest moments because I, this was somebody who did not have the funds to do this, and I just wanted to help them. And it's sometimes when you're doing something and you're not really getting as much paid for it, but you know, it's just the right thing to do, you feel a whole lot more at stake. So in that moment where the judge said essentially like, we can't use this footage for whatever reason, or maybe he hinted that that could be the case, he sustained their objection. That's what he did. Right. For someone to get angry and say, this is ridiculous. Like what is like going on in their head versus what is going on in yours? You know what I mean, what causes someone to say, like, oh, this isn't fair. Like what identity is that exactly? This identity of control, it's the identity of if I don't get this, I am wrong. In other words, there's a fear, all, I mean, if you want to say identity, all things that are tied to what's inside of, we all have fear of what's going on inside of us. And it's either an unmet need that we don't have, or maybe it's an unspoken violation, in other words, hey, you did something that is against my value and I feel really strongly or maybe it's an unspoken fear in some sense. And so maybe that fear is, I'm afraid to be right or excuse me, I'm afraid to be wrong. What does it mean if I'm wrong? If I'm wrong, then you're not going to love me, trust me, think that I am worthy of whatever. So that's the same reason why you get a handful of guys together and what do we do? In some amount of time, we're comparing in some way, we're comparing physique, we're comparing who's cooler, we're comparing who has more money than this, especially trial attorneys. My gosh, they're always talking about, you know, what kind of verdict they had in this quarter, that quarter, and how they can measure in some way. Well, that's all of, if I am not, there always want to know where do I rank. So where does that outrage come from? It's usually a fear of being wrong. And that ultimately is, I need to control certain variables. And if I don't feel control of that variable, then it's telling me that I'm not safe. And if I'm not safe, then my body feels threatened in that moment and then everything else is on, maybe. And it's almost as though everyone has their own truth about how they want to be seen. And that kind of outrage is caused by. This isn't fair. People aren't seeing me the way I want to be seen. People aren't treating me in a way that is fair to what I think is fair. But you kind of just have a mindset that like regardless of whatever happens in the case, you're still a good lawyer. You're still correct and you don't need to be seen by other people as correct. Would you say that's mostly true? Yeah, so let's put it in a different frame. We all have fears. There could be fears of what we're experiencing now versus fear of what happened in the past or fear of the future. Whatever that is, all that feeling is natural because in some sense that your body protecting you from things, it is keeping you, your nervous system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. And that is protect you from social threats, physical threats, and that's, I mean, that's one thing about our nervous system. It doesn't do a great job of distinguishing the difference between a physical threat and a social thread of knowing I can get just as upset of you telling me something hurtful than if you were about the punch me, right? Like it's it's the same thing to my nervous system. So I can have the fear and we can validate that. And also the question you have to ask is, entangin' them with that is, what do I know to be true? What am I afraid of losing in this moment? So let's put it in three different ways. We could say one, what am I afraid of losing in this conversation? Number two, what would it look like for there to be enough grace in this conversation for both of us? So for me, what would it look like for me to understand that him getting a win or sustaining the objection? What if he could get that objection and it still doesn't touch that I'm still a good attorney into in my job? What would that have to look like? Right? And then three, it's am I fighting against something or am I building towards something? And I think that's an underlying question of that really hits this scarcity and abundance. Am I always going to fight, compete? Or am I going to say, hey, you know what, got it? This is a chance for me to learn and grow. Am I fighting against something or am I building towards something? It's a filter I apply when I'm trying to think, okay, I have a conversation with somebody and I know they're disagreeing with me. Do I want to fight against them and tell them all the reasons why they're wrong? Or do I want to find a way to go, what's something that can pull from this conversation and realize that either way, no matter the outcome, it's going to be good. I'm going to learn something whether it's about me or the other person. So am I fighting against something or am I building towards something? That's a scarcity versus abundance mindset. You said, on a recent podcast, liars, manipulators, they want the anger, but they fear the calm. Yeah, what is the single most powerful thing you can do when someone disrespects you? Give them exactly what they're wanting. Give them exactly what they're asking for and that is a reaction. That's the single thing you can do is if you want to, if you want to face somebody who's being disrespectful to you and you want to give them what you're asking for, that means you're going to give them control over you, give them the power over you, give them the reaction. So if you were to be disrespectful to me in this moment, the worst thing I could do is give you the power to decide for me how I'm going to show up right now. And if I'm able to cut that off and say, no, I hear that, but I still get to choose how I'm going to respond. That's not going to get a reaction out of me. And so one of the ways you can do that that I love is I'm going to add about five to seven seconds of nothing, just silence, because just like we talked about with liars, people are disrespectful, fear that quiet. They want the immediate reaction. They want that hit a dopamine because they're feeling bad about something. They're fearful of something. They're angry about something. So they want to get a rise out of you that tells them it's okay for me to feel this way. I need to feel justified in my anger. So if they throw a level three in soul and you come back at a level seven in soul, when they go, huh, you're exactly what I just said you were. I knew it. I knew you were that kind of person. And now you've just given them all the opportunity and justification to go to a level 10, right? And it's now your fault. And so rather than jumping up and giving them something to grapple on to, that moment of silence, it's scary to them. That's why they they'll fill it a lot of the times with they'll capitulate in some way. They'll find some way to draw back or it's going to make them really uneasy. But what you're doing in that moment is signaling control. I was saying, yeah, you can sure you can choose to say what you want to say, knock yourself, knock yourself out. That doesn't, that's not going to get the kind of reaction you thought from me. Can you show me an example? So yeah, Jefferson, this jacket is silly. Oh, that was rough. Yeah. So if you say, yeah, Jefferson, that jacket is the stupidest looking jacket I've ever seen. I'd give it five to seven seconds and nothing. And then I'd look at my jacket and I'd look at you. And I would say, I need you to say they're going to me. You just say that again. That jacket is silly. Oh, so you meant to hurt my feelings when you said this jacket was silly. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. I thought so. And that's where you got off. And that's where you leave. If they double down and say, yeah, I think that was dumb jacket. And then you go, did you mean to offend me when you insulted my jacket or insulted my looks? And so I'm going to go, yes, I did. Yeah, I thought so. Thanks. In other words, thank you for showing me exactly who you are. Why in the world would I be around Jack if you can't find another way of saying, hey, that jacket's not really the best look for you or why would they even care? So a lot of the times when you can parse that out and ask them to repeat it or use it, did you mean it's going to question a lot of things that if you were in a group, people are going to like, so like one on one, people are much up. They're more comfortable being ugly than they are in a group because then it comes into evaluation of the community. There's a community where we're going to prove that behavior on that. And so that goes into the court of public opinion. I do like the jacket, by the way. Oh, thank you. All right. So imagine you need relationship advice. And you asked your friend who hasn't been on a date since COVID and has three matches on his dating apps even after paying for premium. Like, how would you do that? There's a reason you wouldn't ask that guy to handle your love life. Just like there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. Not all law firms are the same. Hire the wrong one and you might be beat before you even star. Morgan and Morgan has been fighting for the people for over 35 years. They've recovered over 30 billion dollars for their clients and hiring them is like hiring your own army to go into battle for you. They've got more than 1,000 lawyers in 100 offices nationwide. If you're injured by someone else's negligence, you deserve to be paid and their fee is free unless you win. So if you're ever injured, you can check out Morgan and Morgan. For more information, you can go to forthepople.com/jackneil and see if you have a case. Again, that's forthepople.com/jackneil. But anyway, guys, back to the podcast. You've said before something along the lines of a sign of low emotional intelligence is when someone gives the silent treatment. So are you saying that the difference here is don't go silent and stay here with me? Simply just repeat, clarify and then leave. If somebody's going to insult you, that doesn't mean you just take it and go quiet. That's not it. I'm saying I want to, if somebody's saying something ugly, imagine your words, just fill in the table right here and they're just what. Imagine them being a ugly looking, gray blob of stuff. I get to have the chance to, instead of taking your words and me like holding it and throwing it back at you, I'm saying it's not even going to reach me. It's going to fall and I get to look at it. I'm like a you and go, you go with that, like a you. That's, is that really where you're going? Is that what you're proud of? To have that moment. And then I get to clarify and respond, but that five to seven seconds is a way for you to hear what you said back. Now we compare that to the silent treatment. Silent treatment is much longer. Silent treatment is we're talking, instead of five seconds, we're talking five hours, we're talking half of the day. It's usually because it's sometimes being petty in some way. That is a little emotional intelligence. I would much rather somebody say, Hey, I hear you. I need to take a break from this conversation so that I can approach it in a way that's going to be helpful and not more hurtful. Is that work? And then go, Yeah, like that's, there's nothing wrong with taking a break. It's that you have to be able to relay that you're taking one. There's a difference between just closing the door and saying, Hey, I'm heading to the store. I'll be back in five, you know, be back in a few hours. You have to be able to one is having high emotional intelligence. And that is saying, I realize that me leaving this is probably going to cause additional anxiety and cause you to want to chase and pursue. And that's going to cause me to want to leave. That's going to cause me to want to be avoidant in this. Jefferson, you're a fifth generation trial lawyer. You come from a family that has watched more people lie under oath and any other family in America, probably, maybe, maybe not. How often do people lie to you as a lawyer? All the time. Yeah. You could say that as how many times do people lie to you as a human? I mean, it's, it's all the time. How many times have I lied all the time? I mean, as much as you don't want to or the moments that you never intended, it's, it's going to, it's going to happen. I mean, I didn't teach my daughter how to lie if she didn't want to admit that she actually did take that cooking. I can see the crumbs on the floor. But some ways somehow she, she's learned how to naturally. Right. So there's, there's a lot of times where bling is is part of it. And certainly under oath is no different. I've had lots of people. So I had to tell the truth and nothing but the truth. So if you got and the core port as far as them in and within five minutes, I know because I have the evidence for not telling the truth. I know you talk about this a lot, but I want to approach it a different way. I guess when a stranger sits across from you, coffee shop, podcast, deposition. What's the easiest way for you to tell this one is lying to you? If I have, let me ask, if I have evidence or don't have evidence, no evidence, okay. Usually that's simply a sixth sense of one that I've been able to sharpen over time. But I'd say, if you don't have that, somebody's lying to you. It's usually in their demeanor. Usually how quickly you take the lie. So if you were to question it, liars really don't like home and they don't like questions. And they don't like it when you question them. So typically if somebody is lying, the more questions you give, the anger you're they're going to get. And so they're going to respond to things like, "Well, why would I not, what do you think I'm not telling the truth?" I mean, what do you think? What do you, and they're wanting you to give them the keys is what's the problem? Why doesn't Jack believe me? What I'm saying? How can I fix just that? And so they're kind of wanting you to do the work for them. So you might have, what's the more you can tell? One is a very un-proportional response. You asked a very basic question. Did you drive my car the other day? What would you mean? Why would I drive your car? And it's this really high, un-proportional response that they had this really high emotion. Second is they might repeat a very basic question right back to you. So they might, if you were to say, "Hey, did you take my car to the store?" And they're like, "I'd take your car to the store." It's like, is this a really basic question? "Didn't need an echo in it?" And it's usually so they can think of time. They need to be able to create time in the conversation, to think of some other alternative. And three, I would say they really don't like when you don't believe them right away. People who tell the truth, if you don't believe them or not, maybe, okay, go with it. If you don't believe me, all right. The truth doesn't need anywhere to hide. So the truth is the truth. The people who lie, they want you to, it's like throwing a top water bait on the water. They want you to bite it quickly. And if the longer you wake, the more comfortable they'll get. Are there certain words or phrases you notice that liars use? No. I mean, they, they, the good liars, they talk like anybody else. Maybe they could say something faster. Maybe they want to push you in a direction that's faster, but there's not like a one word that they use that's different than other people, unarguing and lying to yourself. How do you argue with someone who never sees anything wrong with their actions? Meaning, no matter what they do, they think that they're the, the best. You have to realize that what you're doing at that moment is you're not speaking to them. You're speaking to something deeper. You're speaking to their identity. And so if I am talking to somebody who you can tell this, they're refusing to admit that they could possibly be wrong about this. I have to see that through the filter of this is an insecurity that was there long before we ever started this conversation, but long before I ever met this person. And so they're not going to just flip right over and go, holy smokes, you're right. I was so wrong about this. And just this little conversation, it's going to take, it's going to take a lot of conversations. If I am trying to open somebody up in their way of thinking, I'm going to use questions that they're going to try and open them up, but get a no answer. For example, I might say, are you against looking at this a little bit more objectively? That's a question that you'd probably much easier to say no to. You were to say, yes, I'm against looking at this objectively. That's a court of public opinion where you go, nobody's going to agree with that. You put yourself too far on the ledge or I might ask them the question, but they might typically say, but I'm being objective. That's true, but what would it look like? So that's another one that I like to just, what would it look like if you were to look at this a little differently? Or so if I could do with, are you against what it depends you? Anything that's going to get to a no, are you against looking at this differently? What would it depend you if I asked you to look at this a different way? What would you need to hear to change your mind? What would you need to hear to look at this differently? Those are ways that kind of pull somebody who's so tunnel visioned out of it. If you had a very strong belief and I'm talking to you, Jack, I said, what would you need to hear to think differently about that? And so those are all different ways to try and approach it at the right angle. Now that doesn't mean it's always going to happen. I mean you, it's going to take time. It's not one that's going to happen quickly. Do you lose arguments on purpose? At home? No. A personal life? No. Have I done it in the legal world? Yes. Because I know judges will often want to be very fair. If they turn you down, they'll want to find something to turn the other person down. And so it's to your advantage some time to kind of create an argument that you know is probably a loser compared to theirs. That you know is it's not going to be as strong as theirs. But the timing in which you present that argument might create the path for what you really want further on. So it's like getting, it's like pick your bottles. It's exactly right. Yeah. And so if I know that this battle is going to be lost, rather than me putting all of my effort and energy into something that ultimately that the case law says could go 50/50. I'm not going to put all of that into it until I know that the judge is going to say, yeah, that's probably going to lose. And I admit that. But I know further on, this is the one I'm going to want. So when you say it impingially, it's more of what are my time I worth to in that moment? Who's who who's worth getting out of my chair for? Like if I am wondering is this is this person worth my time and effort? The question I have to ask is, you know, before I know who to stand up to who's worth getting out of my chair, if that person is not worth my time and effort, then yeah, I might let's say somebody said, Hey, the sky is green. I would much rather go, you know what? It is. You're so right. You take all that. Is that losing the argument? Maybe that to me is having peace. But the people that are important, you usually try to, you don't do pick your battles as much. You try to just remain consistent. If your wife said Jefferson were a green jacket instead of a gray one, you might say, well, I really like this jacket and you might take the time because that's the one you care about. Yeah. And you'll take the time to have that argument or conversation. Sure. That makes sense. Yeah. And I mean, I ultimately, you have to know what's is somebody meaning it for ultimately or good? Are there meaning it? Not for your gut. So like in that aspect, if my wife thinks that one's green and I want her to like what I'm in, like you, you probably wear whatever your wife tells you to wear, if they think that's what she likes. Makes sense. Well, because it makes her happy. And I would much rather do things that are going to make her happy because when she's happy, it makes us happy. And I think that's part of marriage. I agree with that. You better agree with that. She's here. But you said that a sure sign of relationship is over is one person is a decade behind the other in regards to like one is maybe consuming self-help, relationship, advice, like reading books. In the other one is maybe fine sitting in misery. At what point do you think self-improvement becomes self-worship? When it becomes the only thing you're focused on is I mean, if all you do is look self-help, self-help, self-help. Who are you focused on? Who are you worshiping? Who's the person that you are placing above everybody else as you? And I'm all for, you need to do things that are going to take care of you, absolutely. But ultimately, I'm somebody who believes in the act of service. If you only care about yourself, there's not that much going to be to you. I mean, you're not going to be the person anybody wants to be around. So where does that line cross? If you're with somebody and they're only interested in themselves and not in the collaborative process, like we talked about, are we fighting each other? Are we building with each other? You're always going to be the person in the robot just paddling by yourself. Now the person is not going to be in it with you and then what does that do? It's going to build resentment, it's going to build contempt, jealousy, and those are the kind of things that are ultimately going to lead to hatred of the other person. I guess in your life on the self-improvement portion, like when I think about my audience and a lot of the rhetoric they're hearing online, it's almost focused around this idea of like go to the gem make a bunch of money, read books, nobody cares. Also like maybe you have a girlfriend, a wife, yeah, your family. Like how do you kind of balance becoming better with that other piece? Like where do you, how do you prioritize those things? Well, I don't know if it's prioritize as much as listen to those things because if somebody's in their life and they're in their 20s and they feel like they're in the rat race and they're nobody cares about my feelings. I'm going to go into the gem and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and I'm all this self-help on myself that the self-improvement, which is good. It is in moderation. Rarely there are things that are good in excess. I would encourage them to talk to the person in their life, which is themselves 60, 30, 40, 20, 10 years from now. All right. And have that person talk to them. So if I were to say, Jack, what is, what is, you told me your age before we started the podcast? What would 50, 60-year-old Jack be telling you right now? And what you envision that person would be. Most likely you would hear that voice as being someone who's really kind, somebody who's really patient with you, somebody who says, you know what? I thought, you're right. I know you feel like you have it all figured out right now. And I know you feel like last year of the heart right now. Just wait. You think you're, you think you're, you're past your prime or you're not doing enough. I need you just to breathe, Jack. I'm right here. Like you, it's listening to that voice, that future you, that saying, hey, you're doing good enough to be able to hear that kind of influence in your life that is going to help you realize that what you really need is a few good friends and some really good intention in the life you want to build and know it's okay to build slowly. Like it's, it's okay to, to, to, to slow down. And if you're only focused on ambition, you'll lose sight of everything else. So it's usually the people who are older in life who go, they talk slower, they move slower, they encourage you to go slower. That's, that's where I kind of, that's where I lean on that of how do you, how do you kind of listen to that voice? The question would be, are you listening to it? That's a good one. And I think that something men don't have. I mean, there's a male loneliness epidemic right now. And something you said that I also believe is important is having a good few close friends that you spend time with, talk with. Yeah. I'm not sure the exact statistics, but guys are definitely going to college less. People are on their phones more. And before we get into like some of the things you can do for like actual one-on-one communication, do you have any advice for how someone should be talking on the phone, talking on FaceTime? Because like these are the ways that guys are communicating meeting each other these days. I don't think I have any on the, the phone other than calls them. When you think about them, text them. I practice, I've really tried to implement, at least with my, the friends that I, I want to be friends with. The, the minute I left, I want to be friends with, or have deeper connection with is when I think about them, I tell them. At the simple Texas, hey man, thinking about you, open new and well. Like I need to make sure that I'm not walling myself off from relationship. And that's really easy to do with friends. Do you think there are any mistakes mid-make when they text each other or when couples text each other? The only mistake is assuming that this text is a replacement for true connection. Like today, I, I called a guy on the way here just because I thought about him. I just want to talk to him. We spoke for seven or eight minutes and that, that gave me really good feelings of like I, I have worth. He has worth to me. And what's cooler than that, you know, to create that kind of friendship with people. And that's, that's the mistake is assuming that the text has the same value as a phone call, them hearing your voice or face-to-face encounter. Because text or email, it's a very low emotion medium. Meaning it's very hard to gauge emotion. If I were just to text you and go, okay, there's something you said, you'd be like, I don't know, is he, is he pissed? Is he mad? Is he not mad? I don't know. Because I'm not giving any indication. But if you heard my voice and I want, well, how I sounded was, okay, you know, oh, all right, he's okay because you've heard that as a human to human, you can, you know what, okay, sounds like I'm pretty okay. Right. And so you don't have that kind of nuance face-to-face is the highest emotional medium you're going to have. I can read everything right there in front of me. It goes down the more transactional that communication becomes. What do you think is the biggest mistake people make when listening? They're already thinking of their response before the other person's finished talking. We have this habit of loading up our response while you're still talking. And it's impossible for me to talk and have my response while you are still feeding information. And what does that do? That means I'm formulating my response on a fraction of the conversation. What that usually leads to is a response by me and you feeling like that didn't address what I just said. And did you even hear me? Well, no, the truth is I didn't. I heard the first three words and I already started formulating my response in my head. So it's not waiting. It's assuming that listening is just this pass of receiving mode when it's just the opposite. Like, listening is pursuit. Listening is one of the most offensive things you could do. It's a hunt. It's saying, "How can I know more about what's happening here?" And if I want to respond, I'm going to wait till you're done. Give that a second. And then respond. Imagine if you asked me a question and before you're even done answering, giving me the question, I immediately just started talking. What does that convey? It conveys. He didn't really hear my question. In attorney world, that's a lot of the times they'll go, "Please wait until I finish answering my question," because the court report is writing everything down. But imagine what that signal is. And compared to you ask a question, I go, "Let's go question." Let me think. And then I respond, which one sounds like I is going to bring connection to the two of us. It's going to be the next one. So the biggest mistake you can make is start gearing up and loading up your ammunition, your argument, start stacking your papers together of all the reasons why you're right and why they're wrong before they've even finished what they've said. That's an interesting one. I I've been lucky that I haven't dealt with that a lot during a podcast, like people. Yeah, but this is like more, the podcasts are a little harder because they can be more performative anyway. Like there's cameras on us, there's lights in our, we've got people watching us, you know what I mean? But that when you're in the car with your beautiful wife and you know, are talking, of course you're going to cut each other off, you might interrupt, you might be reading each other's thoughts or know where they're going with this. Like that's natural regular communication. I've heard you talk about when you're speaking, you don't, like imagine you interrupt me right now. I should just stay at the same volume, keep talking. Is there anything, any communication mistake that people make that makes others not want to listen to them? Like how do you not be boring in a conversation, like where people aren't thinking about the next words? Because I know it's a bit about them, but it's also like it has to be about you a bit because I mean, if I'm being honest, I've been in conversations with people where I am thinking about what I want to say next and I've been in others that I just hanging on to every word. Like it's like I don't, I don't even, like want to say anything right now, you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. And I mean, let's compare to a podcast and a podcast, I know I'm talking right now and I know that any good podcast or what are they doing? They're starting to formulate worship. What's the next question? Yeah, right? You want to make sure that it flows. And so you're naturally going to be thinking of the next question. This isn't the normal, this is a manufactured thing. This is not regular everyday communication in your car, communication at home kind of thing. So I don't want this to be the model. Let's put it in terms of if you are talking with a friend or hearing something on a call, how do you stop yourself from being boring in communication? Is you stop saying things that's going to cut off the curiosity of the other person? What does that mean? You can't be self-bracking, but that's not, nobody really wants to listen to that. When you go, oh, yeah, that's, well, after I sold my third company, you know, we just got done doing X, Y, and Z, and oh yeah, you know, you know, Jack, oh yeah, I know Jack, yeah, it's the other day, and I just start talking. Or you tell me this awesome thing you did this past weekend instead of me asking about it, I just stepped right on it and go, oh yeah, well, I just, you know, I bought three jet skis, you know, and I guess I just kind of okay time at the lake. You know what I mean? Like that kind of stuff, where you go, okay, well, where you're not taking any interest in the push and pull of, what did you do? That's awesome. What did I do? Okay, you want to know more. And so how do you, how do you not be boring? You don't cut off the ways that are going to create these paths of curiosity, because if you shared what you just did this weekend and I go, oh, that's awesome. What was your favorite part? Well, that sounds great. You naturally are going to want to find out what I did, because it's just kind of the seesaw in communication. Well, maybe you're not, maybe you don't, but you at least give it more of a chance. But if somebody is going to start really talking about themselves, that's when you really cut off the, you're going to be much more interested in the conversation when I'm talking about you are asking you questions. And usually the social protocol would say they then start wondering what are you doing, what's going on in your life. And sometimes they're only going to take that as just everything's great and they're awesome, but then you have to go, oh, is that really somebody I really want to be in my life? You know that friend who I talk to about themselves doesn't talk about anybody else. Like, I've seen it where somebody has emailed me and be like, hey, I was on your date and the guy really never asked any questions about me. What should I do? I don't go on another date with them. If there's no genuine interest in curiosity, then you can't train that. There has to be genuine interest because their interest isn't something, but if it's just in themselves, that's where it stops. And when I think about it, I think guys make that mistake all the time when talking to girls is like the three jet skis thing, or I know the Pope, like, but when you're talking to someone, yeah, I mean, that could be impressive. Yeah, but I hear you. Because I've kind of thought about this sometimes, like, you go on a lot of podcasts. If you were, you're at the comedy store, Austin, Texas, I think, or maybe it's called the mother ship, the place where Joe Rogan, he has a comedy store there. And you maybe want to go on that podcast. How do you show that you're impressive without saying you're impressive? I think that becomes a point in your life where you realize the people who don't say it are the very people that are impressive. That's what makes them impressive. It's because they come into the room with that aura, with that energy and knowing they don't have to say a word. The people who have where they go, I don't know, we all call it now. It's like what we call swagger, but I guess we all call vibes. I don't know. Or is that the way? Okay, yeah, it's like that. They don't have to say anything. Confident people don't have to say it to know it, right? They just, they know that they do. And I think that's where you say, "Young guy's dating." It's misdirected in security, because they feel insecure of who I am is not enough. So I need a name drop. I need to talk about money. What do I want to do to impress a girl? I want to say, "Hey, I have money." I have lots of friends. I'm really popular. Whatever it is. But that's rarely the thing that gets the girl, the girl and much rather that quirky weird thing that you did when you spilt ketchup on your shirt and you opened the door for somebody or you talked about your mom. Talked about your siblings or whatever. It's those little things that I found really make. That's that's who you are, not the cocky strutten. I think Gaston versus the beast. I guess not. Come on. Sorry, I definitely have a daughter, if you hold Kanta. Interesting. So is there any time that you would say something positive about yourself? I don't know. I don't know who's a good example. I hate to say Joe Rogan, because there's a chance you could go on his podcast. But if you were just walking outside, would you just say, "Hey man, big kind of stuff. How's it going? Or do you do the elevator pitch thing to people ever?" No. No. Because my belief system is that whatever is meant to come to me will find this way to come to me. And if it doesn't, it wasn't meant to be. And I find encouragement over things where I think I wouldn't meant to be there. I wouldn't meant to be on that. I wasn't meant to meet that person. And that allows me to align of my path. It doesn't mean I have to be jealous about somebody else's path. So usually it's like, if you don't get invited to something, right? You could start to eat it yourself with white ink and invite it. Or you can think, "Oh, I wasn't supposed to be there. I don't know why. I don't know that answer. I wasn't supposed to be there. I wouldn't meant to be there." So do I give that elevator pitch to somebody? No. If I met somebody, I would say, "Man, I'm a big fan of your work and treat them like a regular human." I don't know of anybody that I've met that you could put in some kind of celebrity status who feels like a celebrity. They really feel like somebody who has trouble sleeping, who's highly insecure and has a lot of other problems, but yet we idolize this kind of thing. But if I can rather than treating them as this angelic thing and treat them just as a human of like, "Hey, I really like your work. Great shoes. Let me have a good day." They're going to feel like, "Hey, I'm a human too." Rather than feel like they have to perform in some way to keep up that illusion. Now, it's different if you're like, "Maybe you're networking with something and everybody's got the auto-ing due cards now, I don't think." But what do you do? Bunk phones and stuff. If you're trying to network in some way, that's different. I think of knowing what you do, what you represent, what you go on for, that kind of stuff. I think that, but that's a given in the environment. You know what you're doing when you go on that. That makes sense to me a night. That's really good advice. It's something you hear a lot is treat people that are high status like normal people, but it is genuinely 100% the case. And imagine if you met somebody in an elevator or at a party, and you didn't know who they were, and they weren't, but they were super famous, but you just didn't recognize them for whatever reason, and you just treated them, they treated you like a normal human. There was nice to use possibly could be, and then act like they were better than you or anything else. And then later on, that person goes upon stage. What are you going to think? They are just, they're genuine and nice, not trying to be standoffish. And what is I going to, it's going to elevate them even more to you, because they weren't having an ego. They weren't bragging about them. They weren't trying to act better than you. I think that to me is, that's the goal. For people who are in relationships or have close friends who are narcissists and manipulators, and they want to protect themselves. What manipulation tactic do you see that is so common, most people don't realize it's happening to them? When the other person is bringing them into their like drama pit, kind of where the person is more narcissistic in their behaviors and manipulative, typically tries to play themselves as the victim, meaning life is terrible, and everybody's hurting me. Life is happening to me, and I need you to help me fix it. You're the only person who can fix it. I need this help. I'm in this bind, Jack. You got to help me. If you don't, they start to turn on you. That's a big red flag right there. Maybe you don't have the time. This is just like you. I knew I couldn't count on you. What they're trying to do is guilt you down this drain. The truth is, as soon as you put that boundary, if you're not doing it, they're going to go find somebody else that go pull on and try and put into their pit because they can't stand being alone. The typical trait that I see there with the more manipulative people is they're trying to catch as many people in their hurricane as they can. They love the drama if they can triangulate you. In some way, that's a big flag, is they're trying to position themselves between you and somebody else and bring up lies. Let's say there's a third person in here and they said, "You tell me something," and I said, "Well, that's not what he said." He said, "You know, he thinks they and you're going to vote." What? They think that? I know. I told them that, and all they're trying to do is get you closer to them so they can control you. And doing that to the same exact person, and so that they find control and controlling your emotions, they get that sense that high from saying, "You're into my web, and I have you in my quicksand." That to me is one of the biggest signs you're dealing with somebody who's really manipulative. They're quick to pull into a triangle, but a lot of the reason you're saying people do this behavior is because it just ultimately gives them a sense of control because I'm guessing they don't have that control over themselves. Yeah, because we all have childhood issues, you know, it's something that started long ago that they didn't get what they needed, and they knew probably that they would say an attachment theory, you know, that they would say that the child carrying was inconsistent or unpredictable, and so they knew that it could only be so sufficient, then that means they had to control everything about their life. Something has to be controlled, and that means they need to control, and the toxic side of that, they can be a healthy side of that, but the toxic side of that is I need to control your behavior, I need to control your emotions, and that means for good or for bad. So whether I need you to praise me, or I need to provoke you to be mad at me, either way, I still have your attention, I still have your emotions. What's an manipulation tactic you refuse to teach because it's so effective? Hmm, I don't teach any manipulation tactics, anything that is even a good tactic can be used manipulatively, right? So there is, like the word manipulate, usually a word that would they say connotative of something that is negative, but it really just means to, I've manipulated this water bottle, you know, I just move from its position. I would say one of the biggest things to watch out for are the people who are asking questions about you in order to harm you. So they want to know stuff about your life, and they'll get really, really close to you really quickly, like that's what you could call love bombing, kind of like friend bombing, or like the, um, bestie bombing kind of thing is they want to get really, really, really close to you in a way that's going to like make you feel like in that moment, all of a sudden they're your very best friend when really they're trying to take over you and your personality in a very quiet way. Is there a specific question that comes to mind when you think about like someone who would be doing that? Like what's too many questions? No, it's, it's more of, are they having to, are they getting jealous of other friends that you have? Are they jealous of your successes? That's the kind of thing to watch out for. If you have a friend that's jealous of your success, that is no friend. That is a person who is out to steal whatever good you are making in the world. If they can't be happy, when you're happy, they need to find a way to knock you down. That's a huge, that's a huge red flag. There's not like a set of questions I could give you of, this is going to pull this person out and you're going to find them, but it's almost a pattern, right, of like stuff that would like be a loaded gun for the future if I said Jefferson. How much money are you making? Where does your family live? Like questions like that that just like build leverage and if those are the only kinds of questions I ask like you might be concerned with that person. Yes. Well, it means that they're only interested in what you can provide them and so they're looking for, what can they take from the relationship with no intention to give and those are people that you consider more of the social climbers because once they meet that family, they're now looking for the next Jones is to meet and then they're going to meet. It's the same people kind of people that if you and I were in a big room and were networking about something and while you're talking to me, I'm looking for the next person who I want to talk to next because I'm just using you as a placeholder for where I'm wanting to go, but it's that they're looking for what can I take for me and I have no intention of giving anything in return. These are the kind of people that also might bad mouth your current friends and you're like that doesn't sound right. Yeah, I told you this has surprised me too, you know, because they want to draw you in closer. They want you to be I'm the only person that you can trust and rely on. You said of the messages you get, the ones that kill you the most are from a mom who hasn't heard from her adult son in months or a dad that hasn't seen his daughter in years. For parents who haven't heard from their kids or kids who refuse to talk to their parents, what would you say to each of those people? Like how do you reconnect with someone that doesn't want you in their life or why should you maybe reconnect with someone that you have a grudge with? If you're hitting on the element of that estrangement, you know, there's a parent who can't reach their adult son or adult son who can't reach their parent. Each one kind of takes a different approach. So for those that are wanting conversation with the parent or the, it's usually the parent wanting to talk to the child is usually what it is. It is probably one of the most helpless feelings because there's nothing they can control. The adults are, you know, the kids not in their house anymore. And so it's a very hopeless, hopeless feeling. What I encourage them to do is to want, no, this is going to take a lot of time and then if this is going to happen quickly, but the framework that I give them, whether it's in a voice chat or a text or a voice mail because, you know, the kid could just delete their phone number, you know what I mean. And what other channel they have? Is the one begin the response with, I know. I know things are not what we want them to be. I know things are difficult between us. I know that there's a lot of distance between us right now. No, we're not in a good place. It's you admitting and owning where you're at and not pretending that there's a illusion that you're somewhere else. There's a lot of space between them, you know, we're not what we want. The next is I'm not, I'm not asking you to apologize. I'm not asking you to respond right away. I'm not asking you to do anything. That's usually one of the first things you have to do because otherwise parents are like, if you would just come back, if you would just do this, as soon as you start putting some kind of burden on the other person, they close that door again. Lastly is, I'm ready and it's not, I'm ready to talk, nobody wants to hear you talk. I'm ready to listen. Usually that assignment that distance happened because somebody was not listening. It usually became from somebody going, "You're not hearing me. You're not listening to me." Because you're not as created enough damage in my life that this is more painful for me to be present, so I'd rather have a future that's painless. For the, let's call it the kid in this adult child, however, they can be in the 20s, 30s, whatever. Of knowing that do you believe that there is, that at the time of the conflict, that your parent was doing the best they could with what they had, and there's no doubt that they made mistakes. But do you think they were doing the best they could when they could? Because they say in therapy, the hardest thing about parents is that they had parents. They were affected in different ways too, and it's not until you become a parent, do you realize there's a lot more to this than you originally thought? And so, if you can, I'm not saying you have to give them a second chance or open yourself up to more hurt and more pain. But if your life is truly in a place where you're feeling, I think there's enough room for us to both have a conversation, and just keep an open channel of that, and know it's going to take time, because whenever there is a big rupture, and somebody is, let's say, the offender, and somebody, in other words, somebody was not listening, and somebody really said more than they should. Somebody said something hurtful, right? That's, can they own what they did? The fact that I upset you, I hate that. The fact that I said all these things, I can't stand that that was the person I was at that moment. I was wrong for that, and I own all of that. And three, opening the door for, I'm going to, I'm going to be here for as long as I need to be here. I hate as long as I need to wait. That openness of not putting any pressure, because that pressure is what continues to shake the code can, so to speak. How do you make someone feel understood? Because that seems to be the common through line, is it? Yeah. Well, they just don't get it. People think that when you hear somebody in conversation. If you don't know what to say, that you just don't say anything. And it's always the wrong move to make. When somebody's hurting or in pain, you go, "I don't know what to say." Yeah, you do, they just give it to you. You just affirm what they said. If you want to make somebody feel heard in conversation, you need to say things that demonstrate, you heard them. What does that sound like? Let's say you're telling me something you go, I mean, Jefferson, I just had a really rough day, you know? All right, this happened, and this happened, and this happened. And rather me going, "Yeah, Jack, I don't know." Yeah, that's rough, man. Anyway, so you want to go grab a burger, like, instead of that, right, which is just going to cut off that. If I want to make you feel heard, I'm going to say, "Man, that does sound frustrating." That seems like sounds like. That sounds like that's been a really hard day today. Or it seems like you've been filling this way for a long time. Yeah, I'm affirming that. What I'm doing is, what they call, like, affect framing. I'm putting words to your emotions, and I'm saying, "It's okay for you to feel that way." You know what, if I were you, I'd be mad too. And you go, "He gets it." He gets it. He understands without feeling like I have to do anything. And that's without me even having to come up with some response. I'm just saying, "Yeah, how you feel?" Totally okay to feel. That's how you make them feel understood. Last one here. What's one thing your father taught you? My dad would teach me the socratic method when it came to how he would, you could say discipline, where he would guide me and teach me. And in the socratic method is, you use questions to teach lessons. So in other words, instead of saying, "Hey, don't say that to your mom." When you say that to your mom, it really upsets her. Instead, he'd say, "Now, when you say that, "what do you think your mom's thinking?" How do you think she feels if her oldest son were to say that? And what kind of example? If your little sister sees that, what do you think she's gonna think is okay to do? Like you know what I mean? He's pulling me out and teaching, having me teach myself the lesson and using questions as a tool rather than just telling me, "Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this." He's making me use my brain to go, "Oh, I see why, I see how." And so, and they teach in law schools, you have to know the other person's argument better than they do. That's what he taught me. Is if I get really good at knowing what my words are gonna do to you, that's gonna give me a whole lot more information and a whole lot more information and agency. You go, "I'm gonna present and frame how I'm gonna say "in a different way that's gonna make you feel more connected "in conversation 'cause I know ultimately what's the goal "for us to be more connected." I'd say the other thing. I know you're gonna ask for one, but I can't do it. Is my dad would say often, "I don't make that your animal." So, in Texas history, they have that your heel to die on. So, he would usually, if I was upset about something, he'd say, "Is this gonna be your heel to die on?" And usually, that's what wouldn't it. So, he was really good at teaching me diplomacy, probably. - Explain that to me a little differently. - Yeah, when, which is, that's a really good tool by itself. So, can you say that to me differently? You're gonna get the same kind of answer in a very different way, so that's good. Is, when, ever sometimes things get hard and you get really upset about something, it's very easy to just plant your flag, draw line in the sand, and say, "Come and take it, "I'm not moving," right? But then you step back and look, and it's just a little ankle, you know? When the big mountains is way over there, so it goes back to what you said them in the go, was picking your battles. Is this really what you're gonna get upset about? Really, you're gonna get upset about, into the, you know, they forgot to pick this up from the store. Yeah, what would it look like if you were to be grateful for what they did today? And so, there was a lot of those put into my life. Oh, what would it look like? Usually, anytime, it would say, what would it look like if I was gonna apply to anybody listening here? What would it look like if you were somebody who's confident? What would it look like if your six-year-old self came in and spoke to kindness, spoke to kindness to you today? What would they say? What would that sound like? What would it look like for you to approach every conversation and relationship of knowing that you are who you are and not try to be somebody else? What would that look like? And so, it's a wonderful way of not only a practice of being intentional, but it's also a gratitude practice for me to say, what would it look like if I can come to this podcast and just in my responses show Jack how grateful I am just to have some time with him? I what would that look like? And so, those kind of questions that I like to play with in my head usually lead to good outcomes. Beautiful. Well, everyone, this has been your guest, Jefferson Fisher, where can people find you? You can go to Jefferson Fisher dot com or on any social media and look up Jefferson, Jefferson Fisher. I appreciate you coming on, man. This is the Jack Neal podcast. Thanks, man.