8. Amara Geffen: Are You Geffen Kidding Me?

those relationships and that notion of our growth and the involvement of our career and our work and our communities, it is all relational. And that's what makes it interesting and that's what helps you find your true North. In partnership with Allegheny College, the Meadville Community Revitalization Corporation, Jen and Sonic Studio, and a colleague existing joy and relief of our friends and family that we've taken on this project. Welcome to Meadville in the making, a podcast where two siblings, that's the two of us. Yeah, discuss the lesser known histories and humans that literally made and make our small Northwestern PA town a really big deal and how those stories are still relevant today. Yeah, and people are really buying into it, they love it. That's it. Today's episode, are you geffin kidding me? If you're even remotely familiar with the Meadville area, you've probably witnessed not just one or two, but multiple public artworks of this local artist. A private studio work is part of a permanent collection of the Met in New York, but it is small town connection and conversation that drives this passionate maker to create both figurative and literal public art pathways. Today we host our first living legend episode featuring Amara Geffen. She makes Meadville her home while simultaneously making Meadville beautiful for all who spend time. Yeah, let's go! [Music] Hello brother. Hello sister. How you feeling today? Oh, peachy. We are under a lot of snow and a lot of cold weather. It's cold, yeah this is the. I still love it here. I spent 20 years in South Florida and I don't miss that heat at all. I love our sins. I know. It's not. I know I don't have the most popular opinion among those living here. Give it some time. I love it. Yeah, it's first time. I don't know. The forecast all the way through the middle of February is nothing gets out of the 20s and. Cold and colder. Yeah. That's all right. It's lovely. I mean, ask me in a week or two, but you know. Hey, so anyway, but yeah, I think we got an episode. We got two episodes. This is. We've decided to put this into two parts because there's just so much in it. And it's something that we really want to bring to the attention of the people of Meadville. So if you have not listened to any of our episodes, I mean, this is a great starting point because it's going to be familiarity. If you're familiar with Meadville, we've seen a lot of love for the Meadville Markethouse episode. And I think that one of the reasons why we've seen a lot of love for that is just that it's a it's a place that people are already familiar with. Right. So we want to be able to tell those untold stories. And today's episode and the following episode will be things that people are familiar with. Yeah. But still. There's going to be a backstory to these things. A lot of unknown things. Yeah. A lot of unknown elements. Yeah. So our maker community was not just part of our heritage. It is part of our future and. And our present. And our present. Yeah. And so. Love it. All right. Let's get to our segment that we start off every episode with. So what's so great about Meadville? Where we paused to reflect on honorable mentions of a very fine town. Today's entry comes from a 1912 industrial magazine that features Meadville. And you can tell me if I'm wrong here, but I believe like the intention of the industrial magazine is for people who are considering moving to the area. Okay. I believe that that's the point of it. No, I'm asking you. I'm not telling you. Oh, you're asking me. Oh, I'm sorry. Right. Oh, right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So is this the the Meadville? Yes. I know the 1912. Yeah. For it. Yeah. It's a whole I think it's a it's a cake come live here and bring your kids and raise your family. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Kind of spiel. Because it goes through the whole. Like here's the amenities. Here's it is. Oh, here's the industry and the things. Yes. It paints this holistic picture of Meadville and then 1912. That's really like the zenith. Like this is like the yeah, the golden years of Meadville. So it's of course. Okay. You know, so yeah, um, this is something now. I will say to the listener, it is very man centric, but again, it is. This is me man's planning. Man's planning. This is. Okay. Um, so yeah. Man's planning Meadville. Yeah. Oh boy. Meadville and the man's planning. You start your own segment. Like you start your own podcast. So yeah, that's what so this is again, this is it's a little a man point of view. Heavy, but but I still think that if there's some really good nuggets in here, that are great for commentary when considering what Meadville is today. So here we go. Educational advantages of a model residence city. In this commercial age, when the love of God has been so largely supplanted by the love of gold, the advantages of a city as a place for a home are too often judged by its smoke stacks and warehouses instead of its church spires and institutions of learning. The thoughtful citizen, however, looks on the educational and moral agencies and the general high tone of the citizenship of a community as the truest test of its fitness as a place to find a home and rear of family. The principal inducements we hold out to the stranger to come within our gates and make his home with us is the fact that we have a city of schools and churches and a cultured citizenship. Meadville has long had the reputation of being a city with excellent educational advantages. We have two higher institutions of learning, Allegheny College and the Meadville Theological School. Each of these has a faculty of cultured men who have not only the good of their institutions at heart, but who take a deep interest in the welfare of the city and lend their influence towards everything that tend towards its educational and moral uplifting. Meadville's public schools are among the very best in the state. Unfortunately, we are still lacking the kindergarten, but a little more light on the subject will cause our people to regard it as one of the most essential of all training agencies and add it to our public schools. We'll come back to it. The Meadville Business College is a flourishing institution which sends out scores of graduates every year. We also have the Pennsylvania College of Music and the Beethoven School of Music, both of which have for a quarter of a century been sending out students well trained in both vocal and instrumental music. With a population of 13,000, Meadville has about 20 religious organizations to look after the spiritual needs of the community. We have Roman Catholic churches, two Methodist, Episcopal one free Methodist, one African Methodist, a Baptist Presbyteria, a United Presbyteria, a Unitarian, Episcopalian Lutheran Congregational, even Gellico Protestant Christian and Reformed, while the Leslie Methodist Christian scientists, Adventists, and Hebrews hold services more or less regularly in some of the halls of the city. That is a buffet. Yes, it is. Meadville is a pioneer among cities of its size in having a public hospital, and those who are overtaken by sickness are more and more coming to trust themselves to the care of our hospitals. As cleanliness is said to be next to godliness, Meadville may well claim credit for her city water works, which furnish an unfailing supply of the purest and clearest water to be found in the state. Our city is well-suured and has fine pavements while the sidewalks are nearly all of stone and cement. These advantages and many others put Meadville up against any other city in the state as a desirable residential town. It's not so large that a man's identity is swallowed up in the multitude, but if he's a good citizen, the fact is soon learned by the business and professional men of the city and he has the opportunity of showing what manner of man he is. On the other hand, Meadville is large enough to attract some of the best musical and dramatic entertainments and add more reasonable price than one obtains in large cities. No city of like size has more good lectures, free, and otherwise than has Meadville. A good free public library is by no means among the minor features that recommend Meadville to those who are looking for a place to live. The collection of books is large and varied. It's well patronized by the general public as well as by the students and faculties of the two colleges. Okay, I have so much here. I know, right? Hold on. Let's back up. What do you want to talk about? So first of all, I don't know if this is so much a matter of man's planning. As it is like moral, the sort of you hear like this, uh, uh, films from like the 50s and there's like this voice over, the person's like this moral like, yeah, yeah, right? So yeah, in the commercial age when the love of God has been so largely supplanted by the love of gold. Okay, so first of all, wow. Okay, so let's continue on to smoke stacks warehouses. I mean, industrial. Yeah, right. Okay. Hey, it's we have a reputation of like excellent education, but no kindergarten. No, but isn't that interesting that kindergarten wasn't always a part of public education. And that's why kindergarten is a standalone thing. Like, that's why it starts with first grade, second grade, but kindergarten is this separate standalone. And I also like that like their simple solution to it is this like, oh, we'll just shed a little bit more light on it. Yeah, like is everybody got any ideas out there? Like we don't have a kindergarten. Like, well, we'll just get the community involved in it and then we'll get ourselves a kindergarten. But we have church. We have church. We have many church. Lots of church. Many church here. Lots and lots of church. So there, so I can't confirm this, but this is one of those like legend things. So I can't pin it down. But the story goes that Ray run this time period, there was a gentleman businessman who came to Medville and in walking around and noticing all the churches, his comment was that this city has probably much to a tone for just given the number of churches that exist here. Well, I mean, if we're looking at like stats of the same time, if we're looking through any of like the newspapers.com articles, again, lots of public intoxication. Yes, but we were well-suored, which is another one of my favorite phrases in here. Well, put that on a t-shirt. Medville, well-suored. We should say that there are recently. Listed. Listed. It snaps to. Yeah, recently. Yeah. So this past week, there was a there was a water being break. Yeah, and had to shut the water off. Yeah. In the city that's no small thing. Listen, you want to gripe about it until you lose all your water. And then you're super grateful. Right. And then the water authority like. And those poor guys were out there working in like sub-zero temperatures. Yeah, exactly. So trying to fix this. And working in water means they're over a hundred years old. And yeah, so you know, well-suored. And today we're fine payments inside. We're well-watered. We're working on it. Let's see. What was the other one? Like there was one other thing that just I thought that was interesting. The population was 13,000. Exactly, which is exactly the population today. Yeah. So come on, Medville. Get it together. Come on. We're great. So we've been talking about doing this. Yes. Since the get-go. Right. Of the creation of Medville and the making. Right. We have wanted to feature an actual living person. Right. Yeah, we want to. Or at Maker of our town. Makers are not just in the past. Makers are in the present. And that visibility. People need to see that. Well, I think that that's one of the things I was thinking about it earlier today. When we talk about like at the beginning of the show, you know, why we highlight those makers and why they're still relevant today is that Medville still has a reputation and an identity as being makers. That hasn't stopped anywhere in the process of our timeline. You shouldn't think about it. It's called cognizant. Something like brisket to your attention. In this particular form of making is one that for a long time, I had to kind of get my, a lot of people are like this can kind of wrap your head around placemaking. What is placemaking? And we have a lot of people are placemakers and don't even realize that they're placemakers until you learn the definition of placemaking. Right. Exactly. So, so we should probably let's intro our guest. We are so excited to have with us. Amara Geffen today, Professor. Amerita. Amara Ta. Yes. From Allegheny. Amara and I obviously like I've known of you through connections. But when we actually met, it was when I was getting ready. I was still a student in Allegheny. Again, mature learner over here. Went back to school in my 40s and it was fun because we got paired up right for an internship over the summer. And so I got to intern with you in the art community green space and like what an honor and a privilege. And honestly, I had no clue. Like I knew that you were behind a lot of our public artwork here in town, but I had no idea the scope of everything. And one of the questions that I asked you during that internship was like, your name isn't on anything around here. Like you have done so much and there's not even like a stinkin plaque anywhere that has your name on there. Like would you like there to be something like that? And you were so humble about it. You were and can you just kind of reverted back to like this is all about community conversations. This is all about like what the community needs. And you were just so humble about it. And I was like people drive by her works of art and beauty like every single day. You know, multiple places and I just thought that that was a. Yeah. So I remember the question. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's the whole conversation for today is like where did you come from? Where did this like seed start in your mind growing up and your career and then here in Medville and what made Medvils so special with all the you know opportunity that you've had and and run your aren't you proud of me? I called you by your first name. Right? And not anyways. So your experience with Amara right now because we say that the show is in partnership with the MCRC. So you get to work with Amara on that professional level. Right. We're both on the we're on the board together. But she is the she's the board president for the inogra board. Yeah. And so we should probably. Does it feel any different or are you working even more? It feels totally different. Yeah. Because I used to do all of this and teach right six classes a year and everything else that went on at the college. So it definitely feels different. Oh my goodness. This is one of the things like it's hard to for people to like wrap their heads around on the day to day. Like you know what a doctor does. You know what a police officer does. You know, you know what a professor does. But there's all these other things like when you're talking about community development. Like what what is what is what goes into that? Yeah. Let's let's put a pin in that and come back to that one week. Once we because we'll go through her timeline a little bit. But yes. Because I think this will want to revisit that. Yeah. This will contextualize that and hopefully people will appreciate it. And once you see when she hears something, then you can't unsee it. Yeah. So you know, not dissimilar. Let's put it in this context. It's one of those things that I think all artists when they go to like price out something that they're giving someone for a fee. And people are always like, why do you charge so much? Well, it's not that you're just paying for this one thing. You are paying for my entire career. You are paying for the experience and the hours that I've already put into this to get me to this point and the knowledge. And comes exactly. Okay. So let's get to. Yeah. Let's. All right. Give us a little overview of your early years. What was little Amara's life? Like where to grow up all the while I grew up in Utica, New York, which is on the south western foothills of the Adirondack mountains in what's known as the Mohawk Valley. And the landscape is I remember when I came into me, Villa first time thinking, oh my god, this is Utica. Not quite because you to cause a bigger population, but the landscape felt very familiar to me. And I think it really that landscape really shaped my relationship with the natural world as did my upbringing. I'm the youngest of four siblings. I have two sisters and one brother who griped intensively about being surrounded by all these women growing up. Where are we? Where are we? I mean, I may have great thin, but it's something that I am proud of now and I mentioned that often. My family background, my mother was born in Poland. And she and her parents walked literally. I have these amazing photographs of them walking with a group of people from wherever they were in Poland to Jerusalem before it was Israel. Wow. She was two at the time. And her parents settled there. My maternal grandma, her mom, was an educator and really into yoga, which was interesting. I found that out before it's trendy. Yeah. Right. And her husband, her first husband was a scientist. And when they moved to Israel, he helped develop hybrid fruit trees that could survive in the in the desert environment. Oh wow. That's fascinating. My mom and her parents left Israel before Hitler rose to power, tried to convince their family, their extended family siblings and parents to come to Israel and they did not get out in time. So that whole side of my family perished in the concentration camps. My dad's parents, my dad was born in Utica, but his parents came from Russia and Poland. Okay. My grandfather came through Ellis Island in that era. I think he was 14 at the time. And he basically peddled his way from New York. He was there for a while, did different things. He was a framer. And then he didn't pay the mafia to protect him so he burned his shop down. And so then he peddled his way, selling it, you know, nuts and bolt-in, they picked up. and bags like horse feed bags and Eventually walked their way to and landed in Utica, New York where he eventually became a an automobile he owned an automobile sales place and he sold Chrysler's plummess and Ford Like let's get all the competition. We're just gonna So he was one of those self-made men And we grew up literally like a school yard away from my grandparents So I can remember riding my bike through the school yard and down over the sidewalk and up the street to Grandpa and grandma's house. Yeah, already just in the background alone like you can see like the resilience That you have with you, but also just like the like a drive That determination to make something of life because life is valuable like this very valuable Make the most of it. Yeah, enjoy it. Yeah, we have a curious because our family is from Poland as well Poland or the Ukraine depending on like what year was it was like one of those villages on the on the border that you know Depending on yeah one year, you know, it could be Poland and the next year could be Ukraine, right? Yeah Yeah, I like our family is Russia. Yeah, yeah, our grandfather was Polish, but spoke Ukrainian But again, like how do you tell right? So yeah, man, that's incredible. So like what would you say? Like you already mentioned like the nature and being around, you know Just the environment of where you're growing up But is there anything like during those early years that you think really would go on to influence your career later? Yeah, I mean I grew up in a family that valued the arts valued culture We took art classes. I took dance classes from a very young age actually thought it would be a dancer and Then eventually got I love that Direction I think it's I think it when I reflect back on it It makes sense because dance is so much about shaping space and expression and making physical objects is about shaping materials into a Physical form and if I think in a way it comes together There's a performative aspect that is involved in place making Yeah, and the activities. So I was exposed to the arts There was the Monson Williams Proctor Institute in Utica Where we took art classes and where there was a museum and there was The Proctor House, which was right next door which would have been like the Baldwin Reynolds House in Mepo So was it one of those things where like I Know in our house once we had a piano everybody takes piano lessons Everybody has forced everybody had a piano lessons because we have this piano for a little while like it Like minimum three years It kept in some of us it did not yeah a lot of it has to do with who you have as a teacher Right, so well agreed. So let's get back into that. So that's one of the that's one of the other things that I'm picking up on here is arts education Like we're we're all of your siblings and you like into it like you enjoyed it or was it one of those things where it's like Now we have to go to this class. No, I think we all enjoyed it and my mom was very wise about Helping us figure out where we wanted to land Like I had a sister my sister Donna was an amazing painter and she would sit for hours at the kitchen table Doing these amazing watercolor paintings and I didn't understand what she was doing but her commitment and her focus certainly Got embedded in my consciousness my brother really enjoyed Printmaking, but then he leaned towards music and he went in that direction and I Couldn't quite figure out where I wanted to go my mom so my mom was great about helping us find our own place So we didn't get that overshadowing of a sibling and those expectations that come along with it and my mom did Stuff herself. So she made collages and she took she took adult classes at the Museum as well. So there were models for me to look at but being raised in a Jewish household There is this concept of Tic-Con Olam Which literally means to repair the world and it talks about one's responsibility and obligation to be engaged in that way and It has a lot to do with the natural world and really as I got more involved in the work of See the Center for Economic Environmental Development at the college those ideas came back to me And I began to see that as a basis not only for the direction I was moving as an artist but also as Environment someone environmentally concerned. Yeah, but so I it's very different from I'm just cheering up over here At least my experience so like grew up and you know, we'll talk too much about it very much was in the art and the things took classes You know all the way up through the school that we went to didn't like necessarily have a strong art program So took a lot of stuff off to the side the goal was to go on to take and be an a graphic designer And this is before like Adobe and like it was no software and like that painted Did the whole thing also influenced by you know our mother? She painted and you know would find her art supplies and all that stuff But at a certain point it's like you know the complete contrast what you know you're saying like from a cultural standpoint Hey, listen, you feel like it is responsibility. Our other things was like you're never gonna make money as an artist So Yeah, but I want to say that I was like when you're the oldest my tax return Yeah, yeah, you know when you're the oldest, you know, it's like all right Well, you you feel like there's like that sense of responsibility and they carry through and like whatever your life goals and stuff But I mean eventually I went and like graduated like and have an English literature degree But and I still paint you know off to the side, but I do always wonder If you had like that just that little push or that feels like part of your your culture It's like part of that you know, there's there's no boundaries right go be what you want to be you know go pursue Yeah, again getting back to this concept of being makers. I think we're all born makers of a of a certain kind You know like in the image of a creator and so the idea is is that like How that gets faster down the line and not dissimilar in our own home because everybody had their own Nisha's far as like the arts that they were encouraged and you know and they were and there was a cushioning there to try out What it was that you wanted to be a part of because we had theater and we had our you know And we had painting in the visual arts and we had the music like we had all those things and in our home as well And both of our parents are very artistic and yeah, and I think that that was something again like you try to do better as the Generations go, you know, and so they at least gave us more cushioning than what they had that's true It I do feel like that there was a conflict though because they felt Maybe it was just by the time I came around I knew I had to make money in order to go down that route Well, it's a good idea down and some of that's cultural right because I grew I was born in 57. Mm-hmm. So I'm sort of coming into thinking about What's my life gonna be you know and my grandfather always told me my dad's dad There's three things a woman can be a wife a noise Animal yeah, you know, and it's two Wife and mom and a teacher yeah teacher that was the other one and a nurse right and yet the women's movement Sure had a lot of influence and yeah, you know on my thinking I was on that cost of which path am I gonna go down because I really wanted to be a mom You know a wife and mother a homemaker. Yeah, sixth grade had a teacher Amazing teacher Diane Abby. We still communicate in Intermittently friends on Facebook kind of thing and she had her students do dream fairs What do you want to be when you grow up? Mm-hmm, and you did a whole display you re-sturched it you did a whole display and I remember being so torn up what do I want to be and my mom said what's in your heart? What do you want to be and it was like I want to be a wife and a mom and a homemaker And so I built I built these sculptures of like And I baked cookies and I so doll close and I remember the mayor shook my hand and said there needs to be more young girls like you know like Because I was choosing the yeah, yeah, that what was the norm and yet I I Also grew up understanding because of family situation that women needed to be able to take care of themselves That was very important. Yeah, and to take care of their families and and husbands and wives were really needed to function more like life partners on a journey But with the capacity to take care of themselves. Yeah, and so that Influenced a lot of choices that I made as well. Well, let's get into it Let's get into like your schooling background and then and then we can talk through just you know like your whole educational path So I think the first moment where education kind of made sense to me was when I was in ninth grade I went into Utica free academy and they had a school within a school. It was called the open school And it was a free model Teachers were there as resources. There were textbooks that you could choose to go through Remember there were no standardized tests. I mean, there were New York State Regents tests. - So, there was a different-- - There was the Free Academy but inside the Free Academy was the open school, right? - Great, great. - The Free Academy. - Sign me up. - And the teachers were new and young and innovative. And I remember nothing of what I learned academically from that period, but I began to learn about what drives learning. And I mean, I was a pretty shy as a youngist. I was kind of pretty shy. I hid a lot, you know, I wasn't-- - Not you as the youngest. - No, I needed someone to be careful. - I wasn't super out going. So I kind of sat back and observed this stuff. The program didn't continue. So the second year when I was in 10th grade, I went back into the regular school system. And I discovered that I was behind. So then I wanted to take, like I remember, petitioning to take algebra and geometry concurrently. So when I got to 11th grade, I wouldn't be behind. And they actually let me do that. They thought I was crazy. But I said, I think I can do it. And if I don't, then I'll pull out a one, you know? - So already advocating for education for yourself. - Yeah. - Early advocacy. - It is always interesting. You have programs like that that are this experiential open. There's no structure to it. - Yeah. - But it builds like a degree of self-confidence. - It's you. - Build your agency, perhaps for self-confidence, you know? - Yeah. - And then you gotta go into this structure of like, well, like it's measured, right? There's like the structure, but there's also this like, well, how many, you know, kids are, you know, passing. - Right. - Yeah, there's always like benchmarks against it. And it's like, yeah, you feel like you're gonna get to compete against the benchmark? - I think in 70, there was less of those. - Yeah. - That stuff education was kind of different than. But yeah. So at the end of my 10th grade year, my dad had been living in Manhattan. So he grew up, oldest son in a Jewish family, took seven years for him to come into my grandparents life. So he was like special to them. And as a Jew, you did, and I think this is not limited to Judaism, but oldest son you went into the family business. It didn't matter whether you liked it or not. - Sure. - My dad, my dad tried, but my dad was philosophical and artistic in spirit, not in, not so much in practice. Although he was very, as you'll hear in a minute, he left the family business and moved to Manhattan to try to figure out what he could put together for himself. Going back and forth by train from New York to, to Udicon, my mom would go down there and my brother went off to college a year early. He was a very smart young man, graduated year early. So it was kind of me and my parents decided they were gonna move us, my mom and I, to New York. And I thought there is no way I can do this. They had, they had stuff they had to work out. And I intuitively understood that and I did not want to be in the middle of it. So I asked if I could go away to boarding school. And we kind of worked that one out. So for 11th grade, I went to a place called Williston Academy in East Hampton, Massachusetts. A lot of things happened for me there. I was still heavily involved in dance. I was not doing visual art. I was trying to figure out who the heck am I? It's an academic student. Because I was in the world in a different way, although I could function in that world. I didn't stay there. I ended up finding a school called, Cambridge School in Western Waltham, Massachusetts, closer to Boston. And I did my senior year of high school there and that's where I got into sculpture and ceramics. And that, I mean, if I could roll back the clock and apply what I know now, back to that period, I would have gone all four years to, to Cambridge School. It was really a good fit for me. From there, I moved, I discovered that I loved ceramics. When I graduated, I moved to Cambridge. I moved in with a friend. I had a wonderful teacher at Cambridge School who Debbie was her Deborah. What's her name? And I cannot right now pull up her last name, which is embarrassing when you have a mentor and you can't even remember the-- You know she knows it's my name. And she was going to travel for the summer. So she loaned me some of her ceramics equipment. Told me how to set it up in my bedroom. You know, lying the walls with plastic and, you know. And how am I going to fire these things? Go down to Thanuel Hall, introduce yourself, and offer to be a studio assistant in exchange for-- So people coached me along the way. And I ended up connecting with a guy, Jeffrey Boer, who was a potter. And I did a lot, all the firing for him and helped him at craft fairs. I did that for about a year. And then I realized pottery is not-- I'm not going to be a production potter. It's not the life for me. But I loved the plasticity of clay. So I applied to and got accepted to Pendlin School for Crafts with a ceramic sculptor. Did a spring concentration, I think it was 1976, and met some folks who also became a significant ceramicist, whose lives crossed at interesting points. And from there, I went to California College of Arts and Crafts in Oakland, California, and studied with Vile of Fry, who's one of probably the first woman sculptor in ceramics who had a solo exhibition at a major museum. She was an amazing influence, although I only studied with her for one semester, because the school lost their funding. And I couldn't stay there and blah, blah, blah. So she directed me to Cincinnati where I worked with Roy Cartwright, who is a lifelong friend and mentor and taught me. So it really helped me gain my confidence. And then I went to grad school in Bloomington, Indiana, where my professors Kent, DuWalt, and John Goodhart saw a teacher in me. I hadn't seen that in myself. And really encouraged me on that path. So I taught all three years that I was in grad school. And I picked that program because it was a three-year program. I wanted that extra time to be in that. I mean, how do you do work that requires foundries and kilns on your own? So three years, it gave me an absolute resource. And then everybody sees the same thing. And you across this whole spectrum of all these places you've been. And they still-- yeah, the same spark. And it's like, OK, there's something special there. I know there's this reoccurring thing that keeps popping up for me that is actually, too. One of them is this idea of connections and people giving you connections and setting you well for that. And I know that so well about you. I've watched that you do that for me, but then you've done that for-- I watch you in conversation. You should go talk to so and so and so and so. And just introduce yourself and talk with them. And maybe-- and then you should try to get in touch with these people at this organization. You're very much a connector and networker of people, like wanting to get them in the right spot of where they'll be best supported. So that's obviously a thing that was-- And that's actually something we'll probably get into, because those connections have helped the town. Absolutely. Maybe we were just talking about that earlier before we started taping. So-- yeah, absolutely. The other thing is just the idea of-- I always put it in the concept of be who it was that you needed when you were younger. Be the person that you needed when you were younger. And so there's obviously this theme of these mentors that just show up at the right time and guide you. Because sometimes when you're so unsure of navigating your path, and that could be in any career, but I feel like it in the arts world so much, because there's so much insecurity in the arts world. Yeah, that's a thing. And comparison is the thief of your joy. And so when you're constantly comparing yourself to these other artists, these other makers, it can be real quick to be like, you know what? I think I'm going to clean up my shop and go get a job at the corner store. Just until-- Yeah, it comes down to stuff that you want to-- you can wrap your head around. Like, oh, my salary is X, you know, dollars. I've accomplished these very tangible things. In business, that's very straightforward. A lot of different professions in the arts and the things. Like, you're kind of on your own. And navigating those waters is tough. But those relationships and that notion of our growth and the involvement of our career and our work and our communities, it is all relational. And that's what makes it interesting, and that's what helps you find your true north. Right? Yeah. That's more rewarding. To be measured by relationships rather than, you know, here's your annual review. Right. How many people do you know? Well, you should see my people score. Right. Yeah. So tell us more about then your early career. So now we're getting out of schooling now. And so obviously, the teaching thing is on your radar. You said you taught for all those three years? I taught in grad school for three years. And in my third year at the start of my third year, my professors, John, and Kent said, OK, here's what happens next at this stage. There are job listings. There's a big annual conference you have to. to do X, Y, and Z to put applications together. And you need to go that path because we really think you're gonna get a job. We think you can succeed in getting a job. I applied for, I don't even know, some ridiculous number of jobs. And the whole gamut, you know, from small institutions to our research one institutions and I remember very distinctively when I read the ad, I'm fairly naive, I don't know what it's gonna be like to be at this type of school or that type of school, except that IU was our one institution. But from a perspective of being a teacher, what your load is, what your salary is, what the expectations are. So I read ads and I, job ads and I responded and applied to the things that had some resonance for me that I thought maybe looked like who I was or who I could be. And I remember reading the ad for Allegheny because they were looking for someone to take over the sculpture program and revive it and the ceramics program, both of which had been stagnant for a number of years. And that's what I did. (laughing) I did go to those things. So it's like this has my name on it. - Meville welcomes him. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I said, meville welcomes him. All right, so let's talk about, so now you're in Meville, Allegheny. Now I'm in Meville, had Allegheny. And-- - I mean, the time frame would have been-- - I came to Allegheny in 1982, so I finished my degree in '82 and I moved here in, I think I arrived in July. And in the summer months between, I did an artisan residence gig at the J County Arts Council in Northern Indiana. And I was kind of like this, I had a little Toyota truck and I was like a traveling art teacher. I'd bring the wheel with me, I'd bring supplies with me and you name it, whatever they wanted to do I did. And I think, when I think back on that, I didn't know that there was a name for this. Right, but at one point I gathered up like, what's in this community? And there was a sign maker shop and the guy gave me boxes and boxes of cut off, interesting shapes. And I took them with me to this park program and the kids glued them together and made these funny sculptures out of them and we painted them and we put them on wheels because they said, we want the community to see this. We want to parade them. Okay, parade. (laughing) So it was like a first glimpse into community engagement and there were moments, different pieces that I did in grad school that also hinted at working in the landscape. - Mm-hmm. - That wasn't exactly what you asked, but that's-- - No, no, no, that's what it was. - 'Cause that's where you start to build roots. Like it goes beyond the art, it becomes like part, you know, early stage of being part of the community. - Right, I'm curious because not to age myself, but when you came to school, I was one, you were 10. So what was Medville like when you were-- - In 1982. - Yeah, in '82. - It was a rough time in Medville because Talon and you know, everything over in Fifth Ward, just like overnight, close shop, gone, ghost town. I remember Eric Palant telling me that when we started working on seeds, like overnight, 4,000 people lost their jobs. And anybody who could get out of Medville did. - Yeah, yeah. - And the rest of us were here trying to figure out where do we go from here. So at its core though, it was Medville. You know, it had all the beautiful things, the landscape, the environment, the community, the people who, I mean, what struck me was this is a place where you, if you have an idea, you can make it happen. You know, if you connect with the right, you can split that up within-- - Yeah, right, you have an idea, I know that's great. - It's true, you know, because the city council is approachable, city managers are approachable. It's a reasonable enough size that you can navigate the systems and probably it doesn't work so well if you just go off on your own, so I wanna do this. (laughing) - Yeah, if you're tuned into the notion of relational cooperation and collaboration and you pay attention to what a city's goals are, you can probably find that they're not that much different than what you want to see. So I came in at a time where it was clear Medville needed help, it needed an infusion of creativity and creative energy and entrepreneurial development. - Something like that happens, so you go back in history, so we look at the depression and Medville is considered to be, you know, it was depression proof like it was-- - It was the moon, yeah, it was the moon. - So sustaining. - Yeah, where everything was going on in the depression, like, you know, Medville is able to take in like, maintain that. And then there was other iterations of that where Medville was immune to, you know, what was going on in a larger scale. But when this happens, it is huge. And it's like, what do you do? You're like, your identity is, you know-- - It pulls the rug right out. - Yeah, and so, yeah, it's like looking for answers and we're having the conversation, I'm like, oh boy, yeah. When you lose your identity as a community, you gotta like go back and really do-- - How do you become the Phoenix rising from now? - And reinvent yourself. - And again, one of the reasons why we do this podcast is that how many people live here are completely unaware that that was our identity at the time and that we've already been through. - Or they're stuck in that identity. And they're like, it's never gonna be, and they never gonna be what it was. - Yeah, right, and they miss all the things. - Well, it won't, but it can be different. It can be different and equally as alive and vital and significant. - It's just significant. - Yeah, and it's like, hey, listen, you know, there's always gonna be those people that are like, no matter what you say, they're like, er, whatever. But-- - The downtown is never the way I use the word. - Yeah, we mean sidewalk sales. It's like, okay, whatever, I won't go in that bin. But yeah, at the end of the day, it's like, hey, you know, there's this people that are, hey, you know what, reinvention, it's good, you know, but still keeping our identity. And we'll talk a lot about the work that you've done that has made our identity public. - Yeah, absolutely. So, Allegheny got you to meet Phil. What kept you here? 'Cause you could have gone a lot of places. - Perhaps, you know, perhaps I could have. - She says, you know, I, I, I, Slyly, did the, shh, don't tell anybody, but I'm putting some feelers out. Which is a tricky thing. When I was in the early 80s, when I was in that mode, college was not receptive to that. You didn't want your department chair to know that you were even remotely. So it made it difficult, right? How do you get the good letters of reference, et cetera? So it was in my mind, do I stay or do I not stay? And I don't, you know, I never got the offer that took me out of here. Well, I got one offer, but by the time it came, I didn't want to go. So anyway, what kept me here in '86, I met Jed Miller and we became life partners in 1990. That was a huge influence and he was a huge influence. - Another evil maker that people don't know. - I know, yeah. - A lot about. - And he definitely, his involvement, he was involved in the community and making things happen in the community. The Arts Council, the first Main Street program, the renovation of Upper Chestnut Street, where Hunter's News was and that whole block there, he's done so much. And seeing what he was doing, planted seeds, and you know, it just opened up some thinking. At the time, not maybe not consciously, because I had a fairly robust career as a sculptor and was showing a lot and, you know, having exhibits being collected. But questioning whether that was the realm I wanted to be in at the same time, could I balance this with the slow-d it allegainy? Is this really what I wanted to do? Galleries didn't want you to change your work. You had to kind of stay the same, 'cause they've invested in photographs and, you know, yada yada yada. So in '97, seed was founded, Center for Economic and Environmental Development. And that, you know, my dad always wanted me to go to a liberal arts school. In fact, we kind of had a bit of a falling out over this because I said, I'm not going to, you know, I was due to go to Bennington College and I went and visited and I thought, I cannot be in an all-girl school number one. And number two, that's not my crowd, you know, I'm from a different socio-economic background and I'm wired differently, it wasn't my scene. And did I really want to go into liberal arts? Did I even know what I wanted to do? So I took a pause and that's when I worked with the potter, et cetera. But he always wanted that for me. And I think the years of my engagement was seed and the moment in which the college began developing these freshmen, you know, the freshmen sequences, the humanities sequence was an early one that I was very involved in. So I like to say to him, you know, I got my liberal arts degree. That's right. That's right. And when the college gave me an honorary degree, it was like, see, this is my degree. So I just took a little longer. Yeah, right, right. But seed was very instrumental. mental in keeping me because that's where I found an alternative path to being an artist and balancing and integrating being a teacher and my son was born in '97. And that changed a lot. Being a mom changes everything or being the mom of a special needs child changes things in a different way. Either way, I wouldn't have had the time eight or ten hours in a studio every day or several times a week. I didn't have that kind of time. And I looked at what my colleagues in ES and other, in the sciences and particularly what their model was to get students engaged in their research. So they had collaborators and they were teaching students through this at the same time they were actually inching their work forward, their research work. And I thought I'm going to use that model in the arts and everything just clicked and things opened up, opportunities opened up, projects opened. I could see them through seed, we could see them. And I was in my 30s at that time. And I just started saying yes to things. I just got, I was on fire. Now and students seem to really clue into this because a lot of, you know, not that many students come to Allegheny because they want to be an artist. But every student that I worked with had an inordinate creative sensibility. And yet they weren't, they, they wanted to find ways to build this into their lives. And this path made a lot more sense to them. Yeah. Sure. Because it wasn't one on one alone in your studio. Right. It's like art with a purpose, but a higher purpose. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know about higher but different. Yeah. It's different. Yeah. Brotter. Like, yeah. Brotter. Brotter. Yeah. Brotter. Yeah. Brotter. Brotter. Yeah. Brotter. Yeah. Brotter. Yeah. Brotter. Yeah. Brotter. Brotter. Yeah. Yeah. Versus going to gallery looking at a plaque doing your research on a piece, having your time to just be there in that dedicated space for that quietness and that time just look at a piece, look at it from every angle, read the little, you know, your placard. Yeah. But it's fine. I, you know, well, the next, okay, we're going to rotate somebody else in here. Whereas this is like some of the pieces that you've done. Yeah. Actually kind of define our identity. It's what people visually recognize. Oh, it's the talent. People for it. Yeah. Right. You know, so that's very different. It's almost kind of eternal. Right. You know, there's a deeperness to it, I think. Yeah. Absolutely. So let's get into that. So let's talk about like your, so you basically have two different art practices. You have your private studio. Mm-hmm. But then you also have the like the public art practice. So if you want to just kind of touch on those a little bit or else we can just start talking, well, talk about a little bit your private art because I don't think that that's something that people know a lot about. Um, well, how do you talk about something that's visual? Talk about all of that. Yeah. I can't help but remind you to do. Yeah. I can't help remind you to do that. The, the distillation for me is that a solo studio practice, you are alone with your craft or your technical skills and your own ideas and you're a maker of things that oftentimes get sucked up by a consumptive system, you know, through consumerism and promotion. And that for me was a world that initially was like really heavy and fun and then quickly became like pretty empty. That I understand. Yeah. I mean, because when I went into like being a professional writer, I mean, loved writing, but then you get all the things that you hope for as a writer. So writing for Disney, writing for, or having to post, writing for the today show. And it sucked the life out of me and I did not want to write for a long, long time. Yeah. That's being a professional musician too. Because then nobody wants to hear originals in the restaurant while they're out on a date. They want you to play covers. I heard three hours straight. Exactly. And that's where the money is. So, you know, this whole thing about how do you integrate teaching motherhood and your engagement in civic life and in your community and Medville visually was pretty depressed. And you know, it was a visually rundown community at that time. Jed and Doug Lodge and Peter Sullivan, they were doing amazing stuff in the mainstream program. There was a lot of energy and the saving of the Academy theater and the saving of the market house and building the second floor out. So I mean this environment, which all this stuff is going on. Yeah. And I didn't really, I don't know. I didn't really want to be alone in my studio as much. Yeah. I found that it wasn't as fulfilling as being in relationship with other like-minded people, trying to find solutions or create good things for Medville as we say. Medville deserves a lot of good things. Right. Right. So, I have kept that solo realm going because it is a way of communing with my own thoughts. And it's a way of practicing what I think is essential to public practice, public art, place making, which is the ability to really notice what you notice. And I remember the first time I expressed that concept to you. To me, that's like the heart of everything. I take it with me to every job I do. Every job I do, every role that I do. And literally I have told people, I'm going to go into this. But here's like, I'm going to notice what I notice. That's what Amara taught me. Like, notice what you notice and take your cues out of yourself and trust your own gut. Right. And you don't make judge, it's not about judging what you notice. It's about openly embracing what is there in front of you to understand what that is. Right. When we were talking about 960 Park Avenue, when my students and I were envisioning what the green space could be, you can't go into a space. Well, I know exactly what it should be. And I'll just stop and tell you. You know, I would talk to them about, we need to camp out in this site. You know, let's get some tents and spend the night down here. Of course, there were problems with doing that. But the idea that you have to be there a lot and you have to see and you have to listen. And you may hear something that part of you just wants to shut down right away because it's counter to, but you can't. You have to work really hard to stay open. And that solo practice is a way that I hone that and I make connections and I discover a lot of my work since moving out of the commercial round, not commercial art realm, but the fine art, the commercial side of the fine art realm has been a mixed media, things that I can do more quickly. They can sit for a lot. I can put things together and let them sit for a week or 10 days and come back. You can't do that would play. Yeah. Yeah. So it change a material, but change of procedure. But the idea is there's a consistency because there's this interest in the natural world and the way in which humans merge with and interact with that world and the discovery of mystery. You know, there is mystery in everything. You know, what makes this all work? Yeah. You know. Oh, that's great. So they're different, but they're overlaps. Right. And certainly my aesthetic, you know, I remember when we were designing the green space and the engineer kept saying lies, everything had to be curved. Curse are a lot more expensive than the way. You know, I mean, not always, but they can be. And there's just something about when you're working along a river and you're trying to call attention to it and you're trying to create flow and connection where on a design level that just it creates the space that opens us to that mystery in that sense. So. We're going to go into our normal segment, asking the questions, but we're going to say up front that after listening to everything, we decided, hey, listen, there's too much here. We think we need to have a part one and a part two. Yes. And that came as a part of us asking these questions. A wealth of information, but like nothing that we want to cut, like just great information, great stories. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And too many mentions. Yeah. Of people and partners and stories behind some of his public art. It's important, like, you know, we talk about the makers of the past and we only had bits and pieces. Now we got a maker from the future that can talk through what it takes to make. Correct. Correct. And it's valuable. So here's what we're going to ask the questions. Yeah. Well, the part two, another episode, part two. Yes. And we'll pick up. Yeah. And we should tell everybody I know everybody's like loves the echoes versus sound offs, but we're going to we're going to save the echoes versus sound offs for the part two of the correct. Correct. So did we know anything about Amara growing up? No, no, no, no, no. And how did we learn about her? We just met her through circles of So you met her in the game, right? The couple different touchpoints from me like she knew mom. Yeah, who moms mosaic art, which she was highly, she was a huge supporter again of Yeah, highly encouraged mom. Also before that, I heard about her through dad because he was a project manager at the hospital. She had the art installation there, right? So how did this story get kind of lost? Like how is this not a more well-known story? I don't think it's lost or forgotten necessarily. I think it's just an untold story. Yeah, you drive by these things and you're like, wow, that's cool. And somebody probably asked every once in a while the question, how did that get here? But then something was I do was that? Yeah, right? Or some people just I think we all like to a some extent take these things for granted. Like, oh, that's great. Right. I think Allegheny circles like up in Allegheny circles. I was talking about this with mom and dad last night. Allegheny circles. She's very well known and everybody knows these stories because kids and students have had a chance to be part of these programs that she's done. Even at the state level. Right? Yeah, there's a lot of like residual midville leadership knows a lot about her. But I think for just the regular midville resident. Yeah, it's it's untold. Yeah. Because she's not here for the credit. Yeah. She doesn't do things and slap her name on him. Like, she doesn't do it for the credit. Nope. Well, what we have done with the knowledge, I this is a big one for me. Yeah. This is again, this goes back to in her in our conversation that we have with her. We talk about this idea of mentorship and being who you needed when you were younger, being that person. And I just think about like a woman in leadership being a placemaker in town at that period of time and that period of time in the 80s, like just paving away and being part of this like passionate group of people that were just changing a lot of things for the better and the beautification of midville during a time period that was really a question mark for a lot of people and a really sad kind of downturn type of time. Yeah. Right. So I think that that like seeing that female leadership especially, like working in town and being part of that public art, not only is she like a female artist making her way, but she's like a public figure doing like a lot of great. Yeah, she didn't have to tie herself to this. But she saw herself in this community. Me, I mentioned about hey, I had this artistic bent and that was originally where I was looking at my career going and everything. And no, like, you know, you never make money as an artist. So if there were to be somebody around that, I can't think of anybody right now. My formative years making these kinds of decisions that were work, they became an artist and they stepped out of that traditional sort of stepping stones, you don't go all out, you do this, whatever, and you get your job. I don't know if it might have made of changed the way I thought about things in terms of like, well, I gotta do these responsible good education, go to college, like, you know, whatever, make money, traditional way. And like later on, we get there as a writer and being able to support myself as a writer. But I listening to Mars story, I wonder, you know, what would have been different. Yeah. The opportunities that would have there, the doors that would have opened, like if you just would have. Yeah. I mean, everything happens for, you know, you go the path you're supposed to go and you get where you're supposed to, you know, you're supposed to be, but still, you know, absolutely. How do we teach it? No. Why is it like, why is it relevant? Why is it important for the people of me built another story now? Yeah, there's a bunch of, okay. There's a lot of angles. Yeah. This is why we have a second. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just an appreciation for what goes into this. And then one person that has maintained this like, credit continuity. I'm looking at two sides of this coin. I'm looking at like what it takes to be a community player and like, and really be a leader and really step up and have conversations and listen to people instead of just bull headedly saying, I have power and position. I'm going to just do this thing. And like, if you want to go fast, go alone. You have the resources to go with it. Yeah, exactly. But like, if you like, you need to go together if you want to go far. And so like, that's AC so much of that and what it is that she does. Like, there there are always something we're going to pause. We're going to have, we're going to gather community input on this. We're going to talk about this. And that makes for a better proposal going forward because then it really is for the community. Right. Of course, there's always going to be gripes to that. Whatever. So then the flip of that is like, if you teach what goes into it, but then you teach what comes out of it. Like, how do you respond to this? Yeah. When you see something as simple as construction signs or, you know, road signs that have been turned into something beautiful, we take something mundane and we made something really special and beautiful. Yeah. That's what life is. Yeah. That's what life is. You freaking driving down the road. Yeah. But there's beauty and you freaking driving down the road. You know, there's all this symbolism there. Yeah. Just that simple thought you're driving by that. Go to a giant eagle to go to Walmart. Right. You just reminded of like, just reminded of like art and beauty and like our community as you go to Walmart and then complain about like the roundabout up at the, you know, right. I think about it now. It's like how well placed is that the roadside art. Yeah. No kidding. And the people that are outside of the community that that's what they appreciate, you know, more. It's one of the things that they recognize. Yeah. The fastest about Needville. Yeah. Like, and we should really just be like celebrating it more. I keep saying like, I've always asked him, or I like, why is there a sidewalk there? You see so many people trying to get out of their cars and like walk through that grassy path. Oh, I'm not. It's a lot of them. Yeah. That's a whole different thing. Right. Yeah. So. But again, like that's, it's a, it's something that we would love to highlight more speaking of. What do we want to know more about? What questions do we still have? Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Yeah. We got to, we got to hold hard too. Yeah. Yeah. What's the Mario? Way too much fun. Yeah. Yeah.