Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This?

Hi, Esther. I'm 41 years old, and I'm calling with a personally heart-wrenching case of should I stay or should I go? In regard to a man I've been seeing for almost two years, he and I met on a sort of casual dating app and went into it very casually. I learned that he is married and that he and his wife were or are no longer sexual or romantic in that way, but they are living together, share a bed. They co-parent an eight-year-old boy, just like I do with my ex-husband, with whom I do not share a bed. And she is very open and encouraging of all of this. And never in one million years would I have known that I was going to be a man. Never in one million years would I have known that I was going to be a man. I'm not intimate with anybody, so. i'm sorry i didn't realize the tears just let them flow let them flow let them stream down i'm not intimate with anybody yeah yeah i have a very small like extended family where my dad i'm estranged from my dad which was a complicated um situation it was emotionally abusive to our family my sister and i growing up and um have a good relationship with my mom but it has its limits both daughters are estranged from him for how long eight years right before my son was born right after i got married that was a pretty crazy year but he he basically blew up our lives he and my mom had been married for 40 years and he came home one day and said i want a divorce and he emptied out their bank accounts and left her with nothing we found out he'd been doing all these horrible things leading a double life basically um and in hindsight i think he was really kind of a sociopath i don't think he had empathy um and i spent my whole life trying to get his approval you know it was very much the perfect type a child um and my sister was the older rebellious one yes who he treated worse you know but he played us off each other it was just a really tough childhood i mean not as tough as a lot of people's but unpacking it as an adult it um was very eye-opening to me i learned like i learned about attachment theory for the first time a couple years ago and i was like no i thought i was over all that it's here if you're what you call him partner boyfriend lover lover we call each other lovers okay if your lover heard you say i am not intimate with anyone how would he respond he would probably put his hand on his heart and it would make him sad because you're right i am intimate with him he's the only person that i really am intimate with beyond sexuality yeah he's the first man that i've ever had difficult feelings around that has been able to sustain it where it hasn't blown up because i had a meltdown or challenged something that was going on or made things difficult for example well this situation has been very hard for me like grappling with these feelings of jealousy uh with his wife and i feel like i will have these sort of outbursts you know and i don't necessarily get angry but i i do unravel and i'm like i can't handle this and sometimes i do contort it into something like you don't even want me anyway and you know just blow up and i assume that it's gone and he's gone because that's how it's gone and i'm like i'm not going to do it it's gone in my relationships and i'm very conscious of that with the men in my life and he just keeps coming back for more like a golden retriever he's just there you know and he's like that must be so hard and so it makes it like in many ways so wonderful right um i feel like it's so good for me to be with somebody that allows me to experience jealousy yes even envy because one is for what we had and have lost and the other one is for what we've never had or not never but what we don't have but also experience the insecurity that it's not what you have it's how it instantly connects to what i feel i don't have and so because i don't have one thing i experience it as well then i better have nothing because if i can turn it into i'll be the one to set this up to end then at least i feel a little bit more in control i don't feel in control over the relationship between me and the other person as it is but i can be in control over the solution of the relationship and he doesn't let you play with that no okay and you have fixated on they share a bed they share a bed they share a bed and that becomes that image that you interpret as they have intimacy they have something i don't have you can see how you put the pieces of your puzzle together right talk to me about what is their arrangement and who are you for them you're telling me who he is for you i don't know much about her i don't know if your children have ever met i don't know if this is a marriage also not just of our marriage coming together more accurately of two people or of two units what is the arrangement what is your relational arrangement at this point and is it by default or is it actually by design so there was no crossing for quite a while you know we met quite casually through this app and i don't think either of us was expecting the level of connection that we developed and he presented himself as as married and described a situation that is he and his wife's life are wonderful partners and very good friends they lost the sexual spark at some point and decided to stay together and co-parent and raise their child in their home and both of them have a separate erotic life she didn't for some time it sounded like but now she does and i had not seen her for a long time and i was like i don't know what to do with her i don't know if she's and i had not seen her for a long time and i was like i don't know if she's and i had not seen her for a long time and eventually she said she wanted to meet me and so we had coffee together and me or all two just me and her and i was like if this is not progress against my anxious attachment style i don't know what is i i had this whole idea of her in my mind you know i've done this whole the ways that she's been with me and she's been with me she's different than me she's like the perfect she's different than me she's like the perfect she's different than me she's like the perfect homemaker homemaker homemaker and i'm not and you know all this stuff and i'm not and you know all this stuff and i'm not and you know all this stuff and instantly was just disarmed by and instantly was just disarmed by and instantly was just disarmed by her she's also totally warm and genuine her she's also totally warm and genuine her she's also totally warm and genuine and cool and i could and cool and i could and cool and i could see that everything was very honestly see that everything was very honestly see that everything was very honestly she was like this is so great like she was like this is so great like she was like this is so great like he's in such a great mood all the time he's in such a great mood all the time he's in such a great mood all the time he is crazy about you we're so happy to he is crazy about you we're so happy to he is crazy about you we're so happy to have you in our lives have you in our lives have you in our lives i went to their holiday party like a i went to their holiday party like a i went to their holiday party like a month or two ago which was month or two ago which was month or two ago which was hard hard hard but but but also what this other weird part of me also what this other weird part of me also what this other weird part of me is like what if like i i was just a part is like what if like i i was just a part is like what if like i i was just a part of this fabric like maybe this did i of this fabric like maybe this did i of this fabric like maybe this did i mean do i have this in me to be one of mean do i have this in me to be one of mean do i have this in me to be one of these crazy people that these crazy people that these crazy people that i shouldn't say crazy people like i shouldn't say crazy people like i shouldn't say crazy people like securely attached people that can flex securely attached people that can flex securely attached people that can flex in relationships in relationships in relationships um um um and she was so happy to have me there and she was so happy to have me there and she was so happy to have me there you know so i don't you know he doesn't you know so i don't you know he doesn't you know so i don't you know he doesn't talk talk talk about their relationship i think he's about their relationship i think he's about their relationship i think he's very very very you know protective of that and i you know protective of that and i you know protective of that and i appreciate that appreciate that appreciate that and i don't know what the future holds and i don't know what the future holds and i don't know what the future holds in store for them but it's like the jealousy the raw but it's like the jealousy the raw but it's like the jealousy the raw jealousy jealousy jealousy and insecurity it brings out is so and insecurity it brings out is so and insecurity it brings out is so present present present we have to take a brief break so we have to take a brief break so we have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this stay with us and let's see where this stay with us and let's see where this goes support for where should we begin comes support for where should we begin comes support for where should we begin comes from quince from quince from quince hate to break it to you but now that hate to break it to you but now that hate to break it to you but now that it's august that means summer is almost it's august that means summer is almost it's august that means summer is almost over for some of you that might be over for some of you that might be a relief. 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Do you have a name for it sometimes? I don't have a name for it. The jealousy is so hard to pinpoint. Okay. So you enter into me. And I feel under threat. I am in like fight or flight. All right. Hold on one moment because you're still talking to me. Turn around and pick something, any object that you can place to represent jealousy. Just look on your shelves and then just bring it toward you. Like physically bring it? Yeah. Go get it. All right. Can you show me? Okay. It shows my Lego Lucky Cat. All right. And the reason you represent my jealousy is because anything, any connection? No, it just felt like it just was drawn to it for some reason. Okay. All right. We're going to make it lucky. Okay. Maybe it'll be memorable that way. I thought it's like, if I need a mental thing, I'm going to do it. Okay. All right. All right. You don't have to look at me, but I want you to talk to, actually it's less you talking to the jealousy first. It's about listening how the jealousy speaks to you, how it feels you, what it does, what it tries to preempt for you, what threats it predicts, what. Yeah. So you go to this party and these people receive you you, you may not like the arrangement. You may say, I don't like complicated setups or multiple setups. That's design. And then you say, that's not for me. But then it doesn't come from a place of self-loading, of being in this relationship is proof that I will not be claimed, that nobody will choose me as their first, as their one and only, and that it is because I'm the last person people want to see walk into the room. So there's a kind of a mixing of two stories here. One that was indeed exclusive, but vicious, and one that is special, but somehow activates this notion. That if I'm not the only one, if I'm not the primary one, it's not because we have something else that ties us together. It's because you don't want to do that with me. Yes. Is that a fair description? It really is. And it's a story that is not reflected really in the situation. You know, like I mentioned this in my message that I don't even know if we would be right together as being married, or that's not what I even fantasize about, really. It's weird. I mean, he would be a wonderful partner and husband, absolutely. But it's more just this ambiguous, here's a reason to feel bad. But then I, there's so many great things about it, like, that I've mentioned to you from a emotional standpoint of things I've been able to work through. And then also just the joy of developing some intimacy with somebody that is also not laden with all of the rest of life. It's funny, because if I've tried to talk about this to some married friends, they'll be like, wow, that is, you've got to get out of that. Like, run, don't walk. Like, you must be miserable half the time. And like, this is the recipe for disaster. And then I'm like, well, how is marriage going? Because marriage is really hard, too. You know? You've got to get out of what? What is being reinforced? That indeed, you're a side gig? Yeah. I think that's how they frame it. And from the outside, I can kind of see that. But that's not how he makes me feel. Or frankly, how she makes me feel. His wife. I feel like they want to bring me into their fold, you know? And he makes me feel very special. He's the first man. The first man I've ever been with that is very comfortable just, like, openly complimenting me in this way that is so disarming to me. You know? We'll just be kissing or something, and he'll sit back and be like, you are so beautiful. And I don't know what to do with it. And I realized that I wasn't getting that before from other people. Well, what you do with that is first and foremost, you savor it. Yeah. Then you decide how important is this? It's an important experience for me to have in a relationship. It doesn't define a decision. Yes. Okay. My question to you is, do you feel like you need to make a decision? Or do you feel that other people are urging you to make a decision? Because you started out by saying, you know, "Shall I stay or shall I go?" And I'm listening to you telling me I'm caught between two stories, two ways to interpret my reality. That's it. In one version, I experience myself as basically I'm experimenting with a very different kind of relational arrangement. It is an ethically non-monogamous or polyamorous relationship. Yes. But it's new. It does involve jealousy, by the way. That's okay. It is also part of the erotic charge that there is a sense of, "Where am I? Where do I fit in?" Etc. So the goal is not to avoid any jealousy. The goal is to learn to live with it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing is I've been exclusive. I've actually been many times a number one and my main experiences around that have been not particularly kind. Which doesn't mean that therefore an exclusive relationship is by itself compromised. But there are two narratives here. And my question to you is, do you feel an urgency to make a decision? Or do you feel that the people around you are urging you to make a decision? Or that there is a sense that you're being naive, you're being credulous, you're going to get hurt? What's the context? Where's the Greek chorus here? Yeah. It's almost like it's these like, every once in a while, I will have a pretty significant meltdown around this. And. Yeah. I think I can't do this anymore. Like this, these feelings are too hard. And what's really funny is that the small circle of people I've opened up to about this who were in monogamous relationships when I first went down this path were like, get out. And now, multiple couples have opened up their marriages. And suddenly they're like, go get it, you're living the dream. Yeah, but they don't know the nightmare. And the nightmare is that by putting myself in a situation where I experience the need to prove myself, the need to make myself be more wanted, the feeling that I am competing with another reality that is better than mine throws me right back into my relationship with my dad, in which I hear all this etched inside my body. Right. And I have these sentences of, every time I try to, what did you say, win his love or be approved by him, it only made me feel worse about myself. Because the whole thing was predicated on it not being possible. Yeah. He needed me to be one down. Yes. So, I have a relationship now that evokes that for me. Yeah, or they all do. They all do. Okay. So, it doesn't even matter which boundary system you're living in, or which identity system you're living in. This, at some point, the question of, am I worthy? Will I be replaced? Would you notice if I need you? Would you be there if I need you? Can you take it if I. I'm messy, you know. I use this example of my ex-boyfriend I dated for three years, and he never was with me when I didn't have shaved legs. I told somebody that recently, and they were like, "What?" But I'm like, that is something I learned from my mother, and the way that my dad commented on our appearance. Yeah. And it just, you know, my whole life, to be, to keep it together, you know. So what does messy mean? Afraid? Afraid, like angry, like showing emotions that they don't want to hear, that men don't want to hear. And you get angry when you're afraid? The more you're afraid they would leave, the more you kick them out? Yeah. And you think that when I'm afraid, I'm going to scare them? They're going to think I'm impossible to be with? Yeah. I'm thinking out loud. I need you to. Yeah, that I, you know, get, if I get angry or, you know, I felt like this gentleman that I had been seeing, I introduced him to a friend of mine, and I thought that they were being sort of flirtatious with each other. And I am super tuned into that. And it actually makes me mental. And I melted down about it, you know. And I thought, this is the end. Because I don't get angry at men. Like, I don't. It's very difficult for me to conjure that. And so when I melted down about that, I thought, that's the end of that. That's the end of that, meaning he's not going to want to be with somebody who flares up like this, who loses her shit. Yes. Who is so insecure, who sees the slightest thing and starts to turn it into a whole saga. Yeah. And that night I was so elevated, like. How bad does it get? The jealousy thing, when I experience that, if I see flirtation. It's a green-eyed monster. It is a monster. In real life, if I see it, if I see flirtation. It is a monster. And it's crazy. It feels like betrayal. It's threat, you know? And he was like, that was absolutely not my intent, but I'm so sorry. And what does it say to you at that moment, when it sees the flirtation? It says you should be angry at this guy, because he is not prioritizing you. And. That he will, you know, fall at the first sign of female attention that he gets, you know? And then? And then, what are you, you know? You're just like any other woman in the room to him. Also, like, with it, it's like, also fighting me, like, why are you doing this? Like, you're thinking so small. Like. Some women would find it hot that their man could flirt like this, and that other women were attracted to him, and they would have fun with it. So, not only are you just like all these other women in the room, like, you're worse, because you can't roll with this and give him a fucking break. Because he's a nice person, and it's not intentional. But it feels like. He's stabbing me in the heart. Like, it is so raw. It's so powerful. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college. 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Mom! Your teen might not share everything with you, but teens share everything with each other. And certain everyday behaviors, like sharing food, drinks, or kisses, could mean sharing bacteria that can cause meningococcal disease, known as meningitis. Although meningitis is uncommon, about 1 in 10 who develop it will die. Ask your teen's doctor about missing meningitis vaccinations. Learn more at meningitis.com. Vaccination may not protect all recipients. Sponsored by GSK. And is there a connection between the rawness, of feeling that bereft and enraged, and how much you tried to shave your legs at home? How much you used femininity to call attention? How much you worked on appearance, and appearance, and appearance, as in pleasing dad? Yes. And emulating mom, or doing the opposite? I had my moments. It was weird, because I also was like a huge feminist when I was younger, thanks to my sister, and had all these. I was very entrepreneurial and ambitious, which was not like my mom. It was more like my dad, who was an entrepreneur. But the need for approval, and how I reacted to men in authority position to me, was like the constant. And I was very in tune with all the little. How to please, how to seduce. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. And so, when you see the flirting on the other side, you are competing with her? Yes. Yes, I'm competing with her, and. Her being the other woman. Yeah. Yeah. And at home, did you look down to your mom? As in, she has no strength, no power, no seductive cachet. I can do better. I belong to the group of the people who are on top. I identify with the men. I'm the entrepreneur, too. I can best them at their own game. that's an interesting thing I it was very complicated because we felt so bad for my mom because he preyed on her too but we didn't want to be like her no and he was always in my ear whispering that I was his favorite like was telling me that and so the things he put down I mean she was a stay-at-home mom so she was not going to go out and learn languages and get a full ride to college and you know do all which you did you know that still was not enough shocker nothing really that is it's not meant to ever reach the criteria but you feel bad for mom you notice the weakness of mom her despondency but you certainly also know I don't want to be like mom I don't identify with mom so I identify with him and so I internalize his voices inside of me the good and the bad and you know you've done enough in in her work to know that this is this is a clusterfuck right and part of you then says I'm gonna best him at his game I'm gonna become the best seductress that's where the number one comes in I'm gonna be better than all those other women because to be a number one you need to compete against somebody you don't compete against the man the woman is the the pivot of this type of triangular dynamic and they need to be women that are more powerful so that they keep pushing you to do more more more and they need to be women who are weaker this is the language of this kind of dynamic it's actually very un-nuanced for that matter it has so many other aspects to each person but everybody becomes just either top or bottom yes do you ever think I could stay with my lover and maybe at some point also marry I do in the creativity of multiple different kinds of relationship constellations you know it's not like this needs to end for something else to start I don't know that that's what you want but I want you to switch if you can from the default position to the design position from the victimhood from the I'm not chosen from the I'm not worthy to the what actually is the life that I would like to live responsibly creatively and responsibly and I don't know if that's what you want but I don't know if it's the right thing to do or the right thing to do I really liked what you were saying about the stories like that there's a couple of stories happening here and the story of embracing this path this thing that I like about it is that it reminds me a lot of my younger self and I have been a very adventurous ambitious person I used to be very brave but emotionally like these interpersonal relationships I feel like I've been very held back by these old demons, you know? The way I'm imagining on the very little that you've told me, you see, when you have a father, in your case it's the father, okay, who prays, philanders, lies, embezzles, etc., etc., and you know it's a bad behavior. But the status of this person still feels, in some wicked way, better than to be the victim of all of this. 100%. As the daughter, you're in a bind. You care for mom, but you don't want to identify with mom. Mom being woman. Mom being feminine. But it's the woman. It's not just the mother. It's the woman. You don't want to be that kind of woman. And so being number one becomes this kind of default position that says I'm not the reject, the second choice. That's the way the mind of that little girl often develops this narrative. The only way to not be that weakling, rejected, humiliated, made fun of, cheated on, is to be like him in terms of his power. Maybe not in terms of his sociopathy, but certainly in terms of his father. He's the number one. He makes the decision. So it's an impossible bind. I don't want to be like him because he's not a very attractive person, and I don't want to be like her. Yes. But I want to be with the power that he has in order not to hate him. Do you have to be like her? Yeah. And what is the tool I can use to have his power? It's the seductive tool. Yeah. What do you take with you from our conversation? I hoped that I would get some different looks at this and the standpoint of the stories, like the story that I'm telling myself, that's being told to me, that my jealousy is telling me. And I very much feel like I have gotten that. And that puts me in this position of feeling like I can talk back to it. I'm in conversation with a narrative about what's happening here. Where would you like to put this jealousy, the piece that represents it? Where should it be put in your house? Burying it in the backyard is probably not the right answer. It either needs to get buried in the backyard or put in the middle of the mantle. Okay. All right. Would you, would you, is there, there's a sense which one feels, more conducive? The mantle. Yeah. All right, go. Get up and go put it there. And then we'll say goodbye. Okay, I'll be right back. Yep. All right. So, it would be there in the middle of the mantle, ready for any conversation. So, feel our conversation, which is now wrapped around this, what do you call it? My lucky cat. Your lucky cat. And turn to it when you need to talk. Or when you need to listen differently, but have it be outside of you. It's so pretty powerful. It's so, it's so beautiful to be in the living room. It was always there, but now it has a different symbolism. If you want, you can have a little ritual with it on a daily basis or a weekly basis, and you come and you, you know, you can reflect with it, but you want to sort out the stories. They're bleeding into each other and they're making your life too confused. Thank you so much for that. This is such a, such a joy. Thank you. All right. And bye-bye. Bye. Bye. This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julian Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Or find a new favorite. Like the new Iced Pecan Crunch Latte. That tastes just like fall in a cup. 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