Am I Going To Regret This In 5 Years? - Sean Keegan

For me it was, I knew this would be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. It's not very often that the large professional services firm like A&M comes into a market like Australia and for me it was like in like an regret this in five years time if I hadn't done it and I think that that was the answer that was for me was I need to to give it a go and and see how it works. Hi everyone we have a change of scenery because I'm traveling for conferences but we're going to keep bringing you new episodes. So let's begin. What does it take to build a national tax practice completely from the ground up in a country where your firm had zero presence and do it in under two years? Today on Bizarre Bruce I'm sitting down with Sean Kagan who is managing director at head of tax at Australia at Alruz at Marshall. Sean has over 25 years of experience in M&A tax spent nearly eight years as a transaction tax partner at EY and Sydney in January 2024 left to do something more senior tax professionals never tell. Will the full service national tax team from a blank sheet of paper growing to practitioners across Sydney pulled and Melbourne. Sean works at the sharp end of Australian M&A tax right now advising private capital masters incorporates navigating tax office scrutiny for a resident CGT reform pillar two and the question every professional services services leaders wrestling with. What happens to pricing when EY does the work? I'm Adam Tahir founder of Bizarre and this is Bizarre Bruce. Hi Sean how's it going? How's everything going in Australia? You're a first actually guest ever from that part of the world. Yeah no it's it's it's good here where we're in the middle of winter here at the most I'm at that's it's getting cold relatively cold for Australia but yeah all going really and it's exciting to be your first guest from from Australia so let's start off why don't you tell us about what made you interested in tax like what was something happened in college somebody uh did you all this new you wanted to go in tax how did that how did that journey go? I don't know that anyone ever thinks they want to go into tax items to be completely honest but at least I didn't so I sort of fell into it so I was at university or colleges colleges you call guys bullet in the US and I was doing quite well and I received an offer to to be a vacation or an intern over over the summer intern at PwC and at the time I was like great let's go and see what this looks like and I applied for a job in the corporate finance team and they said no it's me so ended up falling into the tax business so for me it was I actually didn't do any tax subjects at university at all so for me it was I hadn't really met the word about tax and then I think from my perspective it was went along and I loved it because it was excuse me else learning every day and I was doing new challenges and just meeting lots of smart people for me there's lots and lots of smart people who do tax and for me that really really drew drew me to doing it but no I definitely didn't go up through through high school and even through through university thinking I was going to be a tax advisor okay so you go and what was that first experience like at PwC what were you doing what were the tax given to you you were an intern so yeah I looked there was a lot of photocopying as everyone probably there's a need to know there's lots of photocopying that this is a long time ago Adam I'm a bit older but new so there's lots of photocopying I think the facts machines still existed at that stage and the secretaries are there referred to then still have typewriters at some points as well to fill in some certain forms so it was but it was for me it was just the energy everyone was in the office there was there was I was taken out to client meetings and getting to understand what clients were doing and why they were coming and talking to the partners at PwC about their tax issues and for me I realized that the team who I'd be working for they're all a valuable part of the business and they're all people who had some great solutions and for me that was the the interesting part of why I wanted to continue down the tax world and so so you were there did you start full time at PwC after that? I did yeah so I must have done something right because they did offer me a graduate so I was at PwC stayed at PwC for another five years until I effectively went through and did did my CPA program or FCA in Australia and did that with PwC it was doing a lot of tax compliance work and so yeah so I went from being you turn into a graduate for a number of years and in Australia it's sort of a right of passage that we move overseas for a couple of years I moved over to London and continued to work over in London not doing tax I was actually working at a couple of investment banks as to see if tax was for me and then came back to Australia and realized I loved what I was doing so I was really so okay let's talk about London for a second so at London have you seen the show industry? no I have not I don't I don't get to watch a lot of TV I have three kids and a full time job at the moment so I don't know what's more about TV at the moment unfortunately I'll have to look at that yeah it's based on an investment bank in London and it has like I guess they just finished the full season and it's like amazing and something I it's it has like a very interesting like subject to it but anyways so investment bank and what are you working on M&A deals buy side sell side or trying to take them probably I was actually I actually started just in back office doing product controlling so building building P&Ls on the rest for all of the traders so I've got to get a good understanding of that a second half of my London studio I was actually working value weight valuing exotic derivatives and so at university I actually did a lot of science and and maths is part of my my degree and I got to spend a lot of time building effectively a new practice where there was a holiday of exotic businesses and exotic derivatives being being put around just before the GFC back back in the middle 2000s and so I spent some time doing that and I loved my time doing that but it was it was it was a different culture and that's that's why I wanted to come back I hope you understand what's the difference between a normally derivative product and then exactly is that is that a derivative product yeah look it's paid a long time but but short answer is you've got you simple things like an option where you're just using a volatility so you're just using one input but some of these exotic derivatives they had five or six different inputs and and the traders who were who were putting these things in place they couldn't value them they did not they didn't have those inputs so part of our job was to work out and what the mathematical formula was to evaluate those things and then secondly what the what the inputs should be and we'd have to go off and find where those inputs were so it was it was exciting but I think that that industry effectively tied around the time the GFC went when all of those exotic derivatives just got too hard and I think people moved back to the credit default swaps and options and interest rate swaps and all of those sort of more vanilla more than nothing okay I love I love some like credit default swap so I was rewatching the big shot again the other day because so I'm in Vegas right now for conferences and one of the things that you to relax at night is just like watch an old movie well I'll get to the next day and they were like talking on default swap so again and I'm like how did people never think of that one anyway so going back so you go you're in London and be able to see how do you switch so investment banking how do you look EY what's that joining like what made you switch yeah so for me I was a bit of a say for a couple of a couple of extra years for me it was I was I was approached by EY I was I was targeted to move over there I had a effectively a private equity client base and EY wanted me to come and join yeah and and do do that for me I'll always loved a different challenge and and part of the reason we'll get to I assume is is part of my new role here after leaving EY but for me it was just a new challenge and just being able to to back myself and so for me it was not not leaving Peter BC because I didn't enjoy it for me it was a new challenge and I just a way of I'd been a Peter BC since I was literally a 21 year old and so for me to leave to be to be seen as not that 21 year old anymore or just to be seen as a partner was it was a big thing for me so that was that was the thinking behind my chain and my chapter and then Australia what's that culture difference like between a PWC and EY was there a difference yeah they've all got they've all got a different cultures but ultimately they've got their own cultures I think EY was was had some good things in some bad things and Peter we see had some good things in some bad things but from my perspective it's all ultimately the same culture it's the same business we're all people business and and you have to find ways of motivating and centralising your stuff and I think the big foreferms do that in different ways and prioritise different things but but ultimately it's the the probably the same culture and then so you get recruited to go to EY obviously really good at your job you have the technical skills but now you're in like this people management and bringing the clients in how what made you like what do you think that tool set was that like helped you succeed at EY as a partner and what kind of leadership philosophy did you have to like bring your team in yeah lots and it was a really challenging time properly the hardest part of my career because I was in a brand new firm I was in a brand new partner in a brand new firm where you don't have those established networks and contacts both in Australia and globally so for me it was re-establishing myself at them and just going out and making making myself known within the internal EY networks so that could some time I think it's just persistence for me it was being persistent and consistent going out seeing clients not just seeing them once but continuing to follow up and and doing that on on a regular basis that was probably the one thing that the work for me and it took three years before before the work started flowing through regularly but those first three years were just a lot of time out seeing people talking to as many people as would listen to me and and being persistent and consistent as I said did you do any call calling call out for each taking people out to lunch no I've been lucky enough I haven't had to do a lot of code calling I think the good thing I suppose is that EY brand gets you a phone that most people will answer the phone or most people will answer an email if you've got the EY email address so I did do a little bit of it but but more for me it was going to to functions and conferences and those things where I'd go up and and making introductions that way I find that's that's better than calling someone through the middle of their day interrupting their train of thought to talk about their tax compliance work and when they're not in a frame of mind, whereas if they're at a conference, they're a bit more open-minded and happy to learn more about your business and do things that way. So that's probably for me where I spend more time and focus more on that work. And so your career is going great and then an offer comes into you saying like, hey, we don't have a presence in this country. Would you be willing to start this tax practice? And now you need to go ahead. What made you go like, I'm ready for this. I got to pick it out. I want to build it out from scratch like, or you're not just like, things got too easy at EY for you and you just want to pick this out. Well, look, that definitely didn't get too easy and I love my time at EY. And to be honest, if the opportunity at A&M didn't come across my plate, I'd still be there and I'd still be enjoying my time. I look, there was lots of reasons. It was a very hard decision to give up the effectively that the comfort of a big floor environment. In Australia, we are a smaller tax market than in the US, for example. And so we don't have the ability to carry as many tax advisory firms as you can in the US and other larger markets. For me, I knew this would be once in a lifetime opportunity. It's not very often that the large professional services firm like A&M comes into a market like Australia. And for me, it was like, anyway, going to regret this in five years time if I hadn't done it. And I think that was the answer. That was for me was, I need to give it a go and see how it works. And at the moment, it's been going being going great, but it could have gone up and flaming fire and not worked as well at them. But I think for me, it was back in myself. And as I said before, I love challenges and I love doing things differently. And this seemed like a perfect opportunity to do that. I'd been a partner at EY for 10 years. I knew I knew enough about myself. I knew I was comfortable and I knew my clients trusted me. So it was more about moving to the next phase of my career and trying to build a team and doing those things. And that's what I was chasing. So how was that first air lake? Yeah, I mean, I'm still, I still, still daunting. I still, I still wake up every morning going, you know, have I done the right thing effectively, not in a way where I change it. But have I been often more than I can chew? And I think that first day was we literally had no precedence. We didn't have an engagement letter. We didn't have, we didn't have a signature on our emails. We didn't have anything. So it was, it was, it was, they're very different in Australia. The brand was not knowing, no one knew who we were. They couldn't pronounce the name. They couldn't spell the name. So there was, again, I would feel like I was back to EY for my first two years. We're just out. They're talking to as many people as possible, educating them what, what our business was and what we're going to be building. I mean, I spent a lot of time hiring as well. So we went from employee number one to about, we've got about 140 in our tax team in Australia in under two, two years. So it was a significant amount of coffees and hiring people. The first, the first team that we had were, we were spending a lot of time just doing business development, proposal decks and just getting things together that you expect in a, in a fully functioning historic tax, tax firm, like the big four where they've got years and years of precedence and engagement letters and people know who each other are. All of those things bringing together, bringing together a team, getting them to introduce themselves and then building a culture from there. There was lots of things to do about it. So that team started and basically you're technically a starter by this point, right? You started this out. Things move really fast. You need to implement a change over there. Are you working closely with in US, in UK or Europe to like bring those like facilities and like the, because now in the US, the brand name is pretty strong, especially in the M&A drop action world, right? And I'm pretty strong as a brand and coming in. How's that, how's that compared to the Australian market? Where the market, M&A market is a pretty not that biggest of US, but yeah. Yeah, look, we were lucky that, we'll couple, a couple of, a couple of things in that. So for us, we, there was zero brand, as I said before, there was zero brand in the Australian market for A&M. We were a startup, but we were lucky enough to be a startup, funded by a billion dollar or multi-billion dollar revenue professional services firm in the US and Europe. So we were able to leverage and lean on the teams there, but when it came to actually going out and talking to clients, for us, we had to, we had to Australianize the A&M brand and we had to make it our own brand. And then from there, it rolls and we hired some great people after that, some really exceptional managing directors and exceptional people in the team. And that they bring their own brand and that that expands, but it just takes time. It was, I think for us, it's, as I said before, quite to trust you, but they don't know the brand. So there's a little bit of, they have to trust you and then that then that becomes the brand for A&M. And then how would you characterize, you work both in the UK and then Australia? How would you characterize difference in the markets? How would you characterize the differences specifically in the accounting markets? How does it change? And do we say that? It's because Australia has tons of advisory startups, specifically in the accounting industry that has come in for the biggest one that we all know is zero. Yeah. Yeah. So absolutely. And I actually worked in the US as well for a couple of years, a PWC, sorry, I was Google for a couple of years. So I'm able to, to see the difference now, obviously, the US, the UK, they are bigger markets. So you can have some really, really specialised tax advisors, be that some tax you can get into partnership and they just rely on partnership returns, partnership issues, particularly in the US. For us in Australia, we have to be a bit more generalist. The market is not as big. And so for us, we need to know more. So I'm an M&A expert, but I also need to understand how that feeds into doing the tax returns or the compliance or what the employment tax affairs are. And I bring in my experts to obviously help on those things. But my clients expect me to know that. Whereas I think in the US and the UK, it's accepted that there's 5, 10 people on a call and each of them has their own special being. They're all talking about different things. So I think that that was very different. And when it comes to things like the number of startups in Australia, I just think that's the Australian culture. I think we don't like to accept status quo. I think everyone likes to do things differently, including myself. And so I think that's why you see lots of those opportunities come up is that we like to think differently. And then, hopefully, that that works through the other thing we're seeing out of a lot at the moment. Now, Australia is a number of private equity firms coming in and backing, backing a number of accounting firms, so buying accounting firms. So that's been something that's happening in the US and the UK, but that is happening now in Australia. And it's going to be interesting to say what that brings to. Yeah. And then we're what do you see is the impact. Like I see private equity, there has been some really good cases in the US where it has gone exponentially well for like the markets have picked up because there's been a modernized right away. But there's been other where the transaction hasn't gone as well. Well, what do you think is like the best way? Let's say NM has some private equity backing. Let's say tomorrow, let's a new style CPA firm is growing. If you're advising a private equity company to come in and buy, what would you tell them to be like on the lookout for or what to see in the transaction to make sure it goes successfully? I've been thinking about the answer to this question for a lot recently. And I think for me, it's really about it's about the leadership. It's about who you bring in. It's about your first initial highs and making sure that they're top to you and elite. And it comes back to clients by the person. I think the days of just going and buying the firms brand are done at least in Australia. Our people are happy to buy people and they will follow. The clients will follow the person that they trust to advise them in their tax affairs. So I think that's that's really critical for any firm starting up and similar to us, even though we're not backed by private equity, you need to get your first leaders correct. And so I think that's that's the point you need to find, make sure that you've got enough scale. So you can't just have five people sitting there. Their clients need to know that if they send you, if they're in transactions, you've got the team behind you. So it's about getting the right people. It's about having the scale. And then I think it's about incentivising stuff correctly. And that's probably the reason we have been able to be successful at A&M is where we have a different incentive model to to the big four. And a lot of our team who have joined are very focused on doing lots of work, doing great work, but also being paid and remunerated for that appropriately. So they know that they're sitting in the office till 2 a.m. doing tax returns or doing some M&A transactions, they're going to get paid for that or is in the big four environment that that level of direct correlation between what you've done and what you get paid doesn't doesn't exist as much as of what it used to. Interesting. And then I saw one of your polls that I want to talk about online. Then we were talking about like AI and pricing on that. Yeah. Have you reached a conclusion? Have you got to like, did you get like more clarity on how you want to do it? I have some my own thoughts on it. Happy to get you thoughts as well Adam. I know to short answer is we haven't reached to landing and we have got to the conclusion is that I actually think there's an education piece for all of our clients as to just because AI might be automating some processes doesn't mean that we're still not spending the same amount of time on things. It's just probably you're getting more seeing your time. So instead of me in the past pushing work all the way down to the graduate, the graduate does work and it comes back up and you sign off and go, yeah, it all looks good. Now it's probably just going down to a manager, the manager and myself and it may be a director of sitting there and spending our time and applying small judgment to that because we've got the answer and we can spend more time. So I think there's an education piece that we're taking certain parts out of the machine but that's still getting to the same answer and it still costs the same. Sometimes it costs more now because there's probably more judgment. We are spending more time with finding different ways around stuff. So I think for us pricing I don't think it does change. We've also got the issue of how much the AI tokens costs Adam and how much everything works. So been running those calculations and I think we've got the teams using AI here and by the time you get through it at the end of the year you probably got to the token cost would be what two or three individuals would cost anyway. So there's a little bit of how do you really take a much cost out of the business? You've probably done it in a way that eradicates the mistakes and allows more of that judgment time. So I think from an advisory firm, their costs are probably going to be the same. You're just replacing for your cost with token costs and AI costs, but the amount of what you've actually done in the output should theoretically be better. So then how do how does AI replicate what Sean knows for 20 years that is not available on the internet and is in his brain and his learned experiences and those decision-making? How does AI learn that part? Well, I don't I don't I think this is the good thing for people who are old like me. How do you don't? Probably I can't be replaced because I do have that 20, 25 years of experience where where I've seen a lot and I know what to apply. Saying that everything we do is a process. So I would be working through if you look at a due diligence and we're doing due diligence on a company, you'd sit there and go, okay, we're going to review this and I've seen that issue before in this other industry, we've got to work that through. So everything in my head theoretically can be put in a process and that's something that I'm focused on on building and the team have focused on building those processes and getting those getting those down. It still doesn't replace the well, but at least for the short term, it doesn't replace the the judgment and the experience that I have. Look at some point in the next five to 10 years, I have no doubt that all of all of my experiences probably sitting somewhere in some level of AI tool and LLA model and you don't need me, but for now, I think, you know, that's that's where it wrap, but it's interesting time. So I mean, no one knows the answer and for us is just being flexible and and rolling with the punches as things change. But doesn't it like make you more defensible in the sense that, okay, here's my thesis on it. Yeah, let's see. Now, let's take an example like Canva. All right, Canva big company, pretty big tax department, they go there. Don't you think that Canva's tax department now is going to do 80 to 90% of the work in house and then bring it to you and get your opinion and say it off on it. They very well are capable of doing that and they're capable of doing that at the moment. I also think that the use of advisors is to not just do the work, but it is some level of insurance policy as well. You've got it goes wrong. So you get someone to sue, but I also think it's the experience we're seeing with different clients. What are we seeing with with the competitors of Canva, for example, using using that analogy. What else what else are others doing that we can share best practices and I don't think you replace that level of best practice now in terms of automating tax returns. Absolutely. I think a lot of that work will be done more in house or or potentially the other way to think about it is a lot of those in-house teams are reduced and potentially that that work is outsourced to a firm who does have the best AI tools. So it's a bit of a balancing act there where the clients decide to do that stuff in house or whether they just say, you know, what we'd actually do at this functionality in house and let's let's go on outsource that. So that's you know, that's the other way to think about it. And then because you are that insurance policy in this case, shouldn't your premium could go up, right? Instead of you charging maybe before it 2000, you could be charging 10,000 because now you're providing risk mitigation and that's where they come to you for. And I think that's where clients are happy to pay for where there's value on that. So they're coming to us for our experience, but we know how the tax office or the IRS or someone deals with those issues and deals with that situation because we've seen it for other clients we've dealt with that so we can impart that wisdom, that real-time wisdom and that's not going to be that's not going to be sitting in some large language model anywhere else it's going to be because we've experienced that and we can pass it on. So absolutely the price that we the price that we charge maybe higher if we are moving to just more of a review and judgment and people need to pay for that judgment. That comes down to my comment before there's some level of education for clients around and what they're paying for and I think the initial instinct every time I talk to clients at the moment is when you're using AI, you fee should be lower. I think that's naturally right for some process driven parts like tax compliance, but when it comes to transactions, when it comes to dealing with the tax authorities, when it comes to all of those judgment points probably the amount that we need to be paid goes up as a result. So yeah, it's a balancing act. Okay, so let's yeah, let's talk about the tax authorities right now, scrutiny is out from the Australian tax office. We've been seeing that of like credits and like where the engagement is coming from. Where do you think the winds shifting and also specifically in Australia, pillar 2's been an issue as well, your clients are navigating. How do you see that environment going out for let's extrapolate at five years, 10 years right now and what do you think could be improved upon in the area? Yeah, I mean, it's probably one of my three massive issues at the moment that we're trying to deal with is in terms of dealing with the tax office and so to give you some numbers that recently they're the Australian government as part of their annual budget, gave more funding to the Australian taxation office to increase the level of activity where lucky or unlucky enough in Australia to have probably one of the most aggressive tax administrators and so the tax office are very very aggressive with lots of things and every time I talk to foreign investors investing into Australia, they can't believe the amount of scrutiny that foreign investors are put on. So I can only see that increasing the amount of activity that the Australian taxation office has on all taxpayers be that Australian domestic tax pays be that foreign residents investing into Australia and so for us it's everything we're doing is with the lens of when the tax office comes and reviews is are you prepared and that means we're thinking about contemporaneous documentation at the time of the transaction so previously be the worry about it if it comes now, it's you have to do those things we have to be ready for for a review and previously it may be that we would never go to the tax office before a transaction for example if you sell you just make the sale and hope that no one finds out now we're actually going and talking to the tax office real time. So for us the level of interactivity with them is going to be a instead of let's pretend it never happened and hope no one finds it so now let's be open about it and so that's a real change in how we do things. I also think the tax office here in Australia and probably happening all around the world is using more data and so they're they're getting real time data from transactions or from from bending and so they're they're identifying things real time and they're coming back in and asking those questions real time so the days of putting your head in the sand and hoping that no one was going to find the issue before us we we just can't we just can't advise like that we have to we have to be assuming that that we're going to be talking to the tax office and that changes how you provide advice. Yeah and the same thing with filler too right because like now depending on where you're filing filing in the jurisdiction and what kind of like agreements to have for the different countries you know your data is going to be shared all across the world. Absolutely we single authority so now you need to make sure like you're having a transactions bullet proof doesn't hold up in court. If you're moving IP around you should have a business isn't for it. Absolutely and it's so it just it just means I mean it's a great point it's not just just domestically you need to be thinking about this internationally as well and whereas my whereas my daughter and during and during up internationally and and what what authorities will will track her back to Australia. So yeah if you if me is an Australian multinational and fun buying a business in the US and think you will all involve the US and I don't need to worry too much that those those assumptions are false. Yeah in terms of like the investment perspective where do you think like do you think more inbound is coming in to the Australian market people are investing more where do you think like well look I think naturally the technology companies are moving into Australia we've still got a lot of natural resources so we're still seeing lots of people invest in into the Australia's natural resources the technology companies that the AOI frontier businesses are coming into Australia as well we're seeing lots of data centers like every real estate around the world data centers we've got a lot of a lot of sun and a lot of wind in Australia and not a lot of people so lots of renewables as well so that that typically that money comes from offshore so we're definitely seeing a lot of of money coming from offshore. The unfortunate thing for them is that the current Australian government is very focused on making sure that those foreigners pay their fair share of tax and in some cases potentially pay more than their fair share of tax and so we're seeing a lot more scrutiny from the tax office and from the Australian government in terms of how the tax settings apply to these foreign investors and I think at some point there will be a tipping point where it goes this is this is all too hard and maybe Australia yeah it's got some great opportunities but it's all too hard and we'll just find somewhere else that's the reason yeah because I was like if you look up like the top 20 companies in the world like look at their market caps wouldn't like the world would want them to like invest and come open so they would try to make business as easy as possible like Singapore does a really good job if you think about like the credits they give you like other lands too because of their trading network if Australia such is big players as you said like small people has tons of natural resources really good market really like English speaking nation so really open over there so that should like impact the market and be more broad and open I mean you preaching to the converted and when it comes to that it makes complete sense particularly for an Australian looking in from the outside I think there is definitely some political tension with that with that argument in Australia and particularly at the moment so the economy is going okay but it's not not great and people are probably under pressure and you know like hopefully the pressure of pricing and inflation and everything else and the government is being asked to spend more money to have to find that money from somewhere else and it's if you're a politician at the moment do you tax your foreigners investing who don't get a vote or do you tax your Australian people who do get a vote and get you know where that boat will go every single time. So I think that's, yeah, that's if you keep it in that lens, look, is that the right answer for the Australian economy? Long term? Absolutely not. But it does explain some of the reasons, in my view, as to why they're taking this approach. Yeah, no. Gotcha. Yeah. Understand. And really like point of view on that. Okay. So one of the last questions I love asking my guest is, you're done with your career. Let's say you're at the tail end of your career achieved everything you wanted to do in tax. What are you pursuing next? Apart from seeing my wife and children a little bit more. Yeah. What's one thing you're like, once I'm done, this is where I want it, what I want to do. I look, I think for me, I can't sit still. And so I'm really passionate about technology. I love what AI can potentially do. And I really see that there's so many opportunities to make our life better. As a result of AI, for me, all of these smart young kids coming through now from universities and colleges, they're coming in and doing the same thing the way that I did it 25, 30 years ago. And I'd love to see technology keep, keep everyone who is very, very good at their job. Interested in their job and finding different ways of doing that. So for me, I think it will be a, it'll be a, a technology overlay with some level of tax and whether that's an automation, whether that's finding different ways of doing their jobs, that for me, I think that's what I, what I, what I love doing. I know my, my whole house is automated. I turn the TV off from bed, my bed, and all those other things. For me, I love technology. And so I'll always be involved in that. And I think that that's probably where I'll be, but I've got a bit more to go at them. So I haven't really thought about that. I haven't allowed myself to think that's a great question. But yeah, it's definitely going to be, it's definitely going to be some level of technology overlay. That's, that's that's what that's doing. I'm not 100% sure. But hopefully I'll get to that state where I can start thinking about that soon. For now, there's a few more other challenges to get through. Who would voice your AI in your house? Like, who, whose voice are you going to use? If you had to pick like a celebrity or a, oh gosh, to be honest, but I'm, I'm happy with the old Siri voice. I've done, it's, it's a, I'm not a big fan of change when it comes to those sort of things. If it works, it works and you move on, but he would, it would have to, it would probably, I'm going to say Steve Irwin just with the, the, the, the, the Australian accent and all the rest, to hear that. I think that would be quite funny. But it would definitely be someone with a unique voice character. Let's go with Steve Irwin. Apart from Siri. I still don't mind Siri. He's just a traditional Siri. So, yeah. So, it's amazing. His, like, his whole family is like fascinating. Like, this is the same. Yeah, it's really, and, and I think people, people think he's representative of Australians, but I can guarantee I've never jumped on a crocodile with my life. And picked up snakes and all those sort of things. Yeah, he's, he's definitely a unique character. It's a shame he glides on early. Yeah. And then if someone's graduating right now from college in Australia, they're, they've finished their accounting and they're going, getting into the workforce, what would he advise? Like, what would they spend their first two, three years on? Yeah. I think first two, two, three years is just being willing to learn, being open. And, and I think the, the skill set is going to be changing for what we expect out, the people straight out of, out of college and university will be. For me, I, I want people who are able to build relationships. And I think it doesn't matter what happens with AI, there will still be relationships, will still be a relationship business. Quite still need to trust the answer that they're getting from me. So I want people to be building those skills early on. It used to be come and sit down at your desk and do you, do you 70 hour, 70 hour charge rules each week and, and do those things? And, and for me, that's changing. And so I'm really looking at people who are able to perform relationships and build natural bonds really quickly and then help them develop those skills so that when they're going to to speak to clients and future clients, they've already got those skills. So for me, it's, it's not just about doing things the way things have been done, but they're trying to differentiate yourself. Try, try, try to think about using technology and, and having those things and the people who can use technology, they already got an natural step ahead. And then challenging the ways things are done. For me, that's, I love when, when all of the new joiners come in and they challenge me on why we're doing things this way. So I think it's, you know, learning and doing what you told as well, but it's also challenging that the status quo in an appropriate way, but more importantly, building new relationships and internal and external networks is, is the most important thing for all the, the people joining and that will differentiate themselves. And to be honest, that will mean they'll have a job in 20 years time as well. And that's, that's the, the things that I, I really encourage all of my, my new joiners to be focused on. Okay, perfect. And finally, like, here's somebody wants to, where do you think like NM? What's like your next five year plan for NM? Yeah, I'd love to have, at the moment, we've got 20, 130 tax partners. I'd love to have another 20 tax partners, probably all into, in promoted internally. And I'd love to be competing and probably sitting above the big four in Australia. And that's my, my goal is to be there. I think a lot of our clients do see us alongside the big four. And I'd love to naturally move up and be seen as a differentiator in a unique, completely unique firm, tax firm, tax advisory firm in Australia. I think for us at A&M, we don't just have the tax business, we also have the transaction advisory and we have the manager at consulting part. And for us, without the audit practice, and that's, that's a real topical point in Australia at the moment, we look with audit and everything that one of the big four firms has, has been doing around, around the audit and some of the, the noise they're seeing. So for us, not just being a tax advisory firm, but just a, just a more broader consulting firm, professional advisory firm, the opportunities that come with working alongside the management consultants who are cost-outs or performance improvement or doing lots of things like that. I think that that is an untapped market here in Australia. And I'd love to be seen that we're actually working together with people like the Bayon McKinsey's and BCG's that don't have tax businesses. For us, that's a real differentiator in something that we're really focused on, on doing as well. So a couple of, a couple of things in that in response, I don't know. Well, I think like those big plans and that I think you're slowly there, have the right skillset to lead in and over there. So I wish you good luck and all of that. Great talking to you. And one of our, like, I couldn't have picked up a better gas to pick up in Australia for our first client. Thank you so much for that. Thank you. I appreciate your time. Okay, take care. Bye.