Alvin E. Roth (on moral economics)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. Today we have Elvin E. Roth. He is a Nobel Prize winning economist and a Stanford professor. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. My goodness. His previous book is Who Gets What and Why? And his new book is called This is Tasty, Moral Economics, From Prostitution to Organ Sales, What Controversial Transactions Reveal About How Markets Work. Really interesting. Super, super interesting. We learn about the difference between repugnancy and disgust. He himself pioneered this kidney market that has saved tens of thousands of lives. Yeah, really, really great topic. Please enjoy Elvin E. Roth. We get surprised. Support from Quince. Okay, can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. 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Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired, and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic. The experts agree. Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to $30. Go to helixsleep.com slash armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com slash armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. helixsleep.com slash armchair. You're visiting, I presume, from the Stanford area, yeah? I am. You're originally from Queens. Both parents were schoolteachers? Yes. And what was their specialty? Were they just generalists? They taught in high school, and they taught a discipline that no longer exists. It was called secretarial studies. and they taught mostly young women who weren't planning to go to college and were going to become secretaries, and they taught them typing and stenography. So one of the skills that a secretary needed to have in those days was to be able to take by hand dictation. Yeah. Right, and then your words per minute was your currency, I imagine. And accuracy. Yeah. Both parents specialized in that? They did. Did they meet in pursuit of that knowledge? They probably did. They were both New York City school teachers, And part of the implicit contract was you were supposed to go back and get a master's degree. And I think they met then. Okay, they met in graduate school. Yeah. How much older is your older brother than you? Four years. Four years. And did you look up to him? Absolutely. So he started this. He started taking classes at Columbia on the weekend. And that encouraged you to do the same? He did. Yeah, what grade? The entrance exam was in ninth grade. I don't think I started classes till tenth grade, but I'm not positive about that. All to say, you end up beginning college full-time at Columbia before you've gotten a degree, yeah? So if we're talking about a high school degree, I don't have a high school degree. Yeah, you don't have a high school degree, which I like a lot. And you started full-time at 16? At Columbia? Yes. So you were a wunderkind. Do you reject that term or do you embrace it? I don't think I embrace it. I was not a great high school student. But they let you into college without it? They did. It's a private college, and the thing about having some acquaintance with Columbia professors was they let me in. Wow. And you got your first degree quickly, yeah, in three years. And it was in operations research. What was operations research? Well, operations research was and is a collection of applied mathematical tools. Mostly they're tools that had their origin in World War II. So various kinds of optimization and some kinds of statistics, things like that. And then you went to graduate school quickly thereafter, which you went to Stanford. And you get your master's and Ph.D. there in three years. Again, this is accelerated now. I did, yeah. What was the hurry? Was it just happening? It was mostly just happening. I wasn't in a hurry. But again, I wasn't a talented student. I liked being a student, but I was ready to also think about things on my own. Okay. How do we transition from operations to economics? It's a good question. I'm often asked that. My story, which I'm sticking to, is that I didn't change what I did, but the disciplinary boundaries moved around me. So I studied game theory was the topic of my dissertation. And in the 1970s, it looked like operations research might be the natural home of game theory. But then economics adopted game theory, and doing game theory made you an economist, and there I was. Oh, okay. Did you love Janusz von Neumann? He's a father of game theory. It would be delightful to have met him. Oh, okay. He was a polymath and an unusual man. Most of the game theory we do today isn't very directly related to what he did. I'm fascinated with him. I read a great biography about him last year. He is the one who basically comes up with the concept of mutually assured nuclear annihilation, right? This is what he models out. So he didn't ever talk about things like that. He may have thought about it or talked about it, but not written in his game theory book. But you might be. You might be thinking of Thomas Schelling, who was a game theorist who also shared a Nobel Prize in economics with Bob Ullman. And he worked in the Rand Corporation and thought a lot about nuclear disarmament and armament and mutually assured destruction. But that is based on the shoulders of game theory, no? Yeah. You have a lot of long stints. You do University of Illinois for seven years? Eight years. Eight years? 74 to 82. And then you do University of Pittsburgh for a long time as well. Eighty. Two to ninety-eight. Are you astounded when you look back that you've had kind of full careers at all these different places? Because you then also went to Harvard for 14 years. Like, these are really long tenures at any one place. Well, you know, I'm old. We did different things at each place. I met my wife in Illinois. We had our children in Pittsburgh. We saw them off to college in Boston. And then we moved to Stanford in 2012. Does academia inoculate you from this? Or do you feel like you were. able to pick up the worldview of all these places you spent all this time in? I always think of myself as being from Detroit. And then I've been here for 30 years. And I definitely downloaded a different worldview through being here. And I want more of those worldviews. And I just wonder if you could feel that you absorb the culture and the points of view. I think I can absorb the culture of the different places. Partly, there's a lot in common about fancy economics departments wherever they are. People sometimes ask me, what's the difference between Harvard and Stanford? And in many ways, they're pretty similar. If you're in the economics department, you're reading the same journals. You're seeing many of the same people. So 70-80% of it is pretty similar. The difference is at Harvard, when you look away from campus, what you see in the foreground is Wall Street and Washington. And at Stanford, when you look away from campus, you see Silicon Valley. You know, I think they change a little bit what students study. Not completely. I have Harvard students who are working in the Valley. And I have Stanford students who go. to Wall Street in Washington, but it's a little more close to you, It's more likely that those are the data you think about. Those are the people you meet. Right. Okay, so in 2012, I guess your last year at Harvard, you win the Nobel Peace Prize with Lloyd Shapley. Not a peace prize. That's a prize for peace. Oh, I'm so sorry. We won an economics prize. Still by the Nobel Committee? Is it not the same? It's different. There's a Nobel Prize in economics. There's one in physics and one in chemistry and one in physiology and medicine and one in literature. So you win that for the theory of stable allocations and practice of market design. So it is in your designing of markets and one in particular, which we'll talk about. But I think as we get into your book, Moral Economics, I think we need some base shared vocabulary and understanding so we can march through them. And I think the best place to start is how do you define a market? What is a market for the layperson? That's a good question. So I have a very expansive view of markets because a lot of the markets I study aren't primarily monetary exchanges. So that surprises even some economists that I speak of markets that way. But I think of markets as tools that human beings build so that we can cooperate and compete and coordinate with each other. And so there are lots of markets. There are commodity markets where you don't care who you're dealing with. You can get 5,000 bushels of hard red winter wheat from any farm. They're all the same. Or they can be marriage markets where you care. Precisely about who you're dealing with. That's the whole point. It's a matching market that gets you married. And there's lots of things in between, like employment, labor markets. Yeah, I think we're all most familiar with thinking of markets in terms of the commodities markets or what is the supply and the demand and how is that going to affect the price of things. And that's certainly one specific kind of market. Yep, that's a giant kind of market. But ultimately, we could think of markets as just being a broad tool that matches anybody with something. So, let's say that the first thing that they want or need was someone else that has it. Now, whether that's going to be done through paying for that with money or if two people are just going to agree, I want you and you want me, that's more of the matching model. That's ultimately what your Nobel Prize was for, was matching markets that you designed. Or helped design or redesigned, yes. Yes. So, let's talk about matching markets because there's a bunch of different ones that maybe people wouldn't realize are markets. Because, in fact, I wrote a book in 2015 called Who Gets What and Why. And that has some things in common, one market in particular in common with my new book, Moral Economics. But that's a sort of optimistic book about how sometimes markets are broken and don't work well. And if we think hard about them and learn about their details, we can sometimes fix them. And so, there were matching markets of that sort that I helped intervene in. And one of them is the market for first jobs for new doctors, new American doctors. And that's a market that, if you know something… I'm one who's graduating from medical school this year. Right around now, they'll already have interviewed at residency programs. Then they'll have submitted a rank order list of how much they like places, first choice, second choice, third choice. And the residency programs, the employers will do the same thing. And then an algorithm that the algorithm used now is one that I helped design. An algorithm will match them to each other. Why was it inefficient before you got involved? What were the baked-in challenges? There were long-standing kind of inefficiencies that had, to some extent, been resolved before. Before I got on the scene by creating a centralized clearinghouse. And those are, when you think what marketplaces have to do, they have to make the market thick. They have to bring people together who want to transact with each other. Then they have to deal with congestion. If there are lots of jobs, it's hard to consider the offers in a timely way and not be pressed to answer more quickly than you'd like because you'd like to see what else is coming along. And the congestion, right, is everyone's going to pick the top three-tier hospitals in a very populated area. That place is going to be inundated with requests. And then as we try to move on to someone's second choice, another new moment of congestion. It also is that people are going to make lots of applications and, therefore, employers are going to get lots of applications. And that's something we've seen in a modern way, that the cost of applying to things has dropped faster than the cost of evaluating applications. So colleges get lots of applications. Residency programs get lots of applications. On dating sites, people with nice pictures get lots of pings. Yeah, if you're the hospital and you get— You get all these applications and you go, great, I want these 20 graduates. You have no clue if you're their ninth choice or their seventh. So you've wasted all this time on an applicant who really doesn't intend to go there but might have sent it as a backup plan. So a centralized clearinghouse helps coordinate that. But one of the particular things that hadn't kept up to date with the way medical education and the labor market of doctors work was the first centralized clearinghouse dates back to the 1950s. But in the 1950s, almost all graduates of American medical school— Not all graduates of American medical schools were men. And by 1970, about 10% were women, and today it's 50%. And so more and more, there are couples graduating from medical school who need two jobs, not one job. And if they need two jobs, you can't do a good job of getting them two jobs unless you ask them, which two jobs do you want? What's your first choice of two jobs? Because that's what they want. What's your second choice of two jobs? Yeah, that sounds very complicated. It's a little complicated to build an algorithm that can handle that. Yeah. But it makes it simpler for couples who are looking. They're looking for two jobs to look for them in a sensible way instead of getting one job in Alaska and one job in Florida. Yeah, I was going to say there probably is some ranked priority of they'd like to be at the same hospital. Then second to that, they'd like to be at two hospitals in the same city. And they have opinions about which hospitals, and they may be in different medical specialties. So they have a lot of things to think about. But one of the reasons it's important is when the clearinghouses didn't take care of that, the married couples didn't go where they were matched. Because I like to say that the iron law of marriage is that you can't be happier than your spouse. Uh-huh. So if me and my spouse get matched to a pair of jobs that doesn't suit us, we can keep looking for jobs. And that disrupts the match for everyone. So that's something that's been fixed. Okay, so now what's interesting about markets is that globally there is very little consensus about what markets should and shouldn't be allowed, right? We have much different laws in the U.S. as we do in Europe, as we have in Asia and so on. Here are some of the markets that exist somewhere and don't exist. Other places selling plasma, kidneys, surrogacy, sex, work. And the concern generally does ultimately find its way to fear that the rich will coerce the poor or underprivileged. In most of those cases, I just said, that's the primary fear. But you have some countries that allow one thing and not the other. So it's not like it's even consistent against like, oh, there's no part of the body that can be sold. Well, no, that's not really how it works. And you attempt to. You explain this through repugnance. And so I would love for you to explain repugnance in a repugnant market. In the book, I say that what I call a repugnant transaction is a transaction that some people want to participate in and other people think they shouldn't be allowed to participate in, largely for moral or religious reasons. And furthermore, that these are transactions that the people who object to them might not even know that they have happened if they haven't been told. And by that last thing, I'm trying to rule out things that. I can easily object to markets if they harm me. But that's not what my book is about. My book is about these other markets where moral considerations come into play. Yeah, gay marriage is a great example of it. If the two people that are married don't inform you that they're married or they don't wear a ring, you have no sense of whether or not this market transaction happened. That's right. So same-sex marriage is sort of a prototypical repugnant transaction. There are two people who want to marry each other. There are other people who think they shouldn't be allowed to. But it's not clear. It's not clear what the harm is that's done to the people who object. But this has been a giant political issue in the United States and in many other places. So it's clear that some people have strong objections to same-sex marriage. And implicit in them as well, like disgust, you use the example like, we don't serve saliva in glasses at restaurants because universally everyone thinks that's gross. That's disgust. Whereas repugnant transactions have to have fans and foes. That's exactly right. So there aren't any laws, I don't think, about you can't serve beverages made of spit. But there are laws in California you can't sell horse meat for human consumption. You know, you can go up and down Los Angeles to restaurants and you'll never find horse meat on the menus. And that's because it's not an ancient cowboy law. It's the result of a 1998 referendum that passed by a big majority in California. It was that recent. Yeah. What that means is that there are people who think you shouldn't eat horse meat. But the reason there's a law against it and not against drinking saliva or eating worms is that you don't need a law. There's a law against eating worms. No one particularly wants to eat worms. But people do want to eat horse meat. There's lots of places in the world where horses are delicious. And we'd all agree that I don't think you could establish a hierarchy of horse, cow, sheep. I think the same referendum that made it illegal to sell horse meat for human consumption made it illegal to sell dogs for human consumption. So I think it's pets is the idea. But it's such a fine line. Yeah, pigs are pets. Well, no, not in California. People have pop, no, no, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they can't include it legally. We have a law in California that you can't sell horse meat for human consumption. It's a felony. There's another concept that's relevant to bring into the repugnant transaction, which is it does seem to overlap with this concept of paternalism. So what do we mean when we talk about paternalism? So I don't think the ban on horse meat has much to do with paternalism. We don't think that eating horse meat is bad for you. But we think that drinking too much alcohol is bad for you. We think that taking addictive drugs is bad for you. We might think that being served sugary soft drinks in giant glasses is bad for you. I mean, there have been attempts to ban. that. In some sense, you know better than the person knows for themselves. Right. And paternalism is a very interesting word because, of course, often we apply it to children. And, you know, if you don't properly supervise your children, you might be neglecting them. Sometimes you have small children, you have to say they can't do things that they really want to do, but that will harm them in some way. And you have to stop them because you, their parents, know better than they do. So there's a whole field now of experimental and behavioral economics, which says that all of us former children, just because we had enough birthdays doesn't necessarily mean that we know what's good for us. And we might also like some laws that limit things you can do. So one that comes to mind that isn't that controversial is prescription drugs. There are lots of drugs that might be good for you, but we think you need advice before taking them. Yeah. We're evaluating whether getting what you want is going to be ultimately destructive to you. So for the kid, the kid wants to stay up late, but we know we got to prioritize tomorrow at school. Or the child wants to eat a bunch of sugar before it goes to bed. Play on the freeway. Play on the freeway. I think that would have appealed to me. When morally contested issues are criminalized, they often can give rise to black markets. So let's talk about that a little bit. Okay. Well, a famous example in American history is prohibition. In the 1920s, we passed a constitutional amendment against most forms of selling alcohol. And not many years later, in the early 1930s, we again amended the Constitution. to repeal prohibition. And part of the reason was in the meantime, there hadn't been that much reduction in sales of alcohol. It's just it had been handed over to criminals to administer that market. And the criminals were sometimes violent. They sometimes made things to drink that weren't good for you in ways that alcohol itself isn't bad for you. You know, there weren't quality controls, you know, methyl instead of ethyl alcohol. And the country got tired of feeling like they were accomplices in a crime that many Americans didn't really think should be a crime. And it's a great example of the difficulty of banning things that people want to do, but also of the fact that regulations don't magically make the problems of alcohol go away. We don't let children buy alcohol, although there are children who get access to alcohol. But even us adults, you know, those of us with enough birthdays not to be children anymore, can drink too much and then maybe get in a car and drive. There are laws against that. But alcohol causes a lot of premature deaths still, as it continued to do during prohibition. One thing that has really changed, though, is that it's now a law that says, you know, you can't drink too much alcohol. You can't drink too much alcohol. You can no longer buy moonshine whiskey from gangsters. They've been out-competed by the fancy liquor stores that'll sell you aged-in-the-barrel scotch and things like that. Yeah. Okay, so the other thing I think we need to understand, again, because your book is trying to evaluate the economic morals, not the moral imperatives. We're not trying to levy a verdict whether something is right or wrong. Well, I think about that, and I end the book by saying that one of the things about morals is you can't be morally obliged to do something that you're not able to do, right? The nature of moral obligation has to do with something that you can do and can choose to do. So we weren't able to ban alcohol, and that makes it less of a moral issue. Some of us might still like not to have alcohol sold, and even those of us who enjoy fine wine and aged whiskey might be prepared to give that up if the problems that alcohol causes would go away. But that turns out to be something we don't know how to do, and that makes it, it seems to me, less of a moral issue. Right. But the concept of trade-offs is really, really important, because that's how we're going to attempt to evaluate these different situations as we go through a list of very exciting and provocative, repugnant transactions. So talk about trade-offs. Economics is about trade-offs, because economics is about how to allocate scarce resources efficiently and how to make them less scarce. But if there were no scarcity, if everyone could do whatever they wanted, then we wouldn't have to deal with trade-offs. But if we live in a universe where things are scarce, attention is scarce, resources of other sorts are scarce, then we have to decide how to allocate those scarce resources. And that involves trade-offs, whether or not we want to make them or are willing to make them. We have to think about the consequences of our actions. Even if we're not pure consequentialists, even if we don't necessarily think that all moral judgments should be made only in terms of consequences, I think it's very hard to get into consequences. Now, this becomes one of my primary axes I like to grind, which is, I feel like there is currently— we're in an era of rejection of trade-offs, in that there's some notion— What is it? That's my one. Oh, okay, okay. No, you're fine. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't mine. No, no. Last year, I was scheduled to go to Israel and didn't go because there was a war in Iran on the days I was supposed to be there. But I downloaded an app that gives me an air-raid alert whenever there's one in Israel, and that's what we're hearing. Oh, wow. Okay. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Whoa. We're getting intel. Okay. I feel like our modern era—and I don't know what's driving it, whether it's the internet or social media—but there seems to be a willing, naive rejection of trade-offs, as if there's going to be a perfect solution to something. And any time there's any downside, we must reject it wholesale. I can think of the war on vaccines, which is—certainly you can produce, for me, some people who have experienced side effects. If you graph that number of side effects versus lives saved from that polio vaccine or name the vaccine, it's preposterous. They're not comparable. One is a magnitude bigger. But because there's a trade-off, the whole thing must be thrown out. And I wonder, do you think that's always been how people felt about trade-offs, or do you think that's kind of new and accelerating? Well, I think it's a very bad way to talk about trade-offs. You know, if you don't think about consequences, then you can be led far astray. And one of the examples I talk about at some length is addictive drugs, right? We all would like there to be no heroin addicts, but simply throwing them in jail turns out not to solve the problem. We still have heroin addicts, even though our jails are full of drug dealers and drug addicts. So if we don't like heroin addiction, I think we're morally obligated to think about how to abolish it, having tried one way. And so I'm a big fan of experiments. I don't know what to do about drug addiction, but I would like to see an effort to figure that out. Yeah, I think people choose the wrong way. I think people choose the wrong way. I don't think people choose the wrong way. Fundamentally, in the Constitution is trying to service two goals, liberty and equality that cannot exist at 100 percent, both. So just implicit in our whole system is the notion of trade-offs. We're going to constantly be measuring, have we lost too much liberty for this equality, or have we lost too much equality for this liberty? And so admitting we're setting out on a journey that's going to involve compromise and trade-offs, I think that's going to be a very, very important part of our and we're going to try to figure out what balance is suitable for us, I think needs to be applied everywhere. You can't really compute the world without acknowledging we're not going to get perfection in any one of these without some cause. I agree. And also, I think we have to learn from experience. It makes a lot of sense to say, let's make heroin illegal. But what makes less sense is to say, let's make that our only tool for fighting drug addiction, given that it I think, and then we'll jump into some of the topics, is just we have to somehow evaluate what we can and can't get. We have to be able to determine whether or not these goals are achievable. And how do we do that? You mentioned already that there are different laws in different places. Some years ago, before COVID, I gave a talk in Berlin about controversial markets. And the three I chose to talk about in Berlin were prostitution, surrogacy, and kidney exchange. And the reason those made sense for an American to talk about in Germany is the German laws are just the opposite of the American laws. So in Germany, the only one of those three that's legal is prostitution. Surrogacy and kidney exchange are not yet legal. So let's take surrogacy to answer your question about how can we tell when things aren't working. The places that don't like surrogacy see themselves as protecting the vulnerable, the places that ban surrogacy. And the vulnerable who they identify are women who might be surrogates and bear children for someone else. But of course, if you're a German couple in need of surrogacy to start your family, you can come to California and have a surrogate baby and have your names on the birth certificate in California where it's perfectly legal. So then the German courts had to deal with how do we make this baby a German citizen so that she can go home with her parents. And so the family courts started to have to create procedures where German surrogate parents could adopt their own child in order to have the child. Because no one's more vulnerable than a new woman. And so the courts started to have to have a newborn baby. So one way you can tell the law isn't working is you're trying to protect the vulnerable and you're in danger of creating stateless babies who can't go home with their parents. Right, right. Now you were working in theory and then admirably started working and like, okay, I think I understand how this works. Can I actually fix something? And you were called to help with the kidney exchange. That's a matching market, right? And I may love you and want to donate my kidney to you. But you and I might not be a match, unfortunately. And now there's another couple and that couple wants to donate the kidney to their loved one and they're not a match. But lo and behold, I might be a match. So there is some way to make everyone happy. And this is the system that you helped design. So what was happening and where did we get to? Okay, so that has a long story. My personal part of that story may not be so interesting, but the big market part of that story is there's a terrible, terrible shortage of organs for transplant. So right now in the United States, we have about 500,000 people on dialysis and we have about 100,000 of them. them on a waiting list to receive a kidney transplant, but we only do fewer than 30,000 kidney transplants a year. So the wait on dialysis is long and dangerous and people die while waiting. And you said it's a top 10 killer in the U.S. Kidney transplantation is the treatment of choice, but most people who need a kidney transplant will die without getting one. So there's a real shortage of kidneys, not just in the U.S., but around the world. And part of that is related to the fact that it's against the law almost everywhere in the world to pay someone for a kidney. I should take a step back and say we get kidneys from deceased donors, from dead people, but also from living donors because healthy people have two kidneys and can remain healthy with one. So as you were saying, if you loved me and I needed a kidney, you might be able to save my life by giving me one. What's the breakdown of that? How many are coming from cadavers versus living folks? 20-something thousand are coming from cadavers and about 7,000 are coming from living donors. Okay, so still the majority is from cadavers. The large majority. The large majority is from cadavers. Only a small majority of the donors are deceased because deceased donors give two kidneys and living donors only give one. Right, right. So we need more donors of all sorts, but it's flatly against the law to pay a donor for a kidney. We've just recently, in very recent years, started to make progress on reimbursing the cost that donors pay in becoming donors. That is, if you wanted to give me a kidney, if I had kidney failure, I'd probably be in a hospital up in the Bay Area, and you would have to, come and get a hotel room, and you'd have costs. And it would have been illegal for you to reimburse me for those? It wasn't clear whether it was illegal, but it certainly was impractical. So mostly there was little or no reimbursement. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking which platform you watch that new show on, so far. Frustrating. 15 minutes later, you've logged into seven apps, reset two passwords, and still haven't found it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Co. and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't? Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. 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Your insurance is not going to pay for you to donate a kidney. Well, my insurance would pay for the surgeries yours and mine needed for you to donate a kidney to me. Oh, okay, okay. But they wouldn't pay for the child care that you needed while you were in Palo Alto. Travel, all that. So there were lots of things that they wouldn't pay for. I was on the board for a number of years of a federally funded organization called NALDAC, the National Living Donor Assistance Center, which had permission to pay certain expenses of means-tested donors, donors who were poor enough. And that's been liberalized what can be paid for over the years. But it's still the case that it's flatly against the law to pay for a kidney. And that's one of the reasons why there's a terrible shortage of kidneys. What was the number before you came up with this algorithm that could match two different couples wanting to, or maybe it was even, I don't know how big it can fan out. So there was hardly any kidney exchange. We came in at the beginning of kidney exchange. And the thing about kidney exchange that's so relevant to this discussion of what's allowed and what's not is in kidney exchange, each patient gets a compatible kidney from another patient's intended donor with no money changing hands, right? It's the no money changing hands that makes it legal. It wasn't completely clear that this would be legal because the American law, the National Organ Transplant Act of 1984, doesn't speak about money. It speaks about valuable consideration. It says you can't give valuable consideration for a kidney. And so the question is, how can you give valuable consideration for a kidney? And so the question was, was a kidney exchange valuable consideration? Congress passed unanimously without any dissent an amendment saying that that isn't what the law meant. Kidney exchange is legal under the National Organ Transplant Act. Right. So once you were able to start pairing up compatible people who had all already agreed to donate, what did the number go from? So it went from a handful a year when we started doing it to it's about 1,500, more than 1,000 a year now. There's a little carefulness you need to do in counting because somewhat more than 1,000 people receive kidney transplants through kidney exchange. But some of the donors are non-directed donors. There are a couple of hundred donors each year in the US who want to give a kidney to someone and don't have a particular someone in mind. Yeah, I've heard about these people. I've considered it. So admirable. You have. Yeah, because I. Who needs it? I already have one. Yeah. I'm suspicious I'm going to damage one of mine and need the second backup. Well, I or at least I've heard you in conversation with other people, open up the idea. The obvious threat of buying kidneys is, of course, rich people will go to poor countries and take advantage of people who are very, very desperate and need the money. And so you have some solutions to that, though. So let me take a step back and let's talk about blood and blood plasma, because there are also laws in many places in the world against paying for blood or blood plasma. These laws date from the 1970s, from many of them right around 1970, before there was a test for hepatitis in the blood supply. And so part of the concern was that poor people, even when they weren't feeling well, but because they were being paid, would donate blood and it would add infection to the blood supply. And there was this worry, just as you enunciated, that the rich countries of the world, the global north, would suck the blood out of the poor countries and there'd be this flow of blood from poor countries to rich countries. In most countries in the world, it's illegal to pay. For blood and also for blood plasma, which is a blood product that's, actually very important. And in the United States, those things aren't illegal, but there's a regulation that says that whole blood has to be labeled with whether it's been donated voluntarily or for pay. And so the equilibrium we're in is that whole blood in the United States is donated without payment. When I donate blood, they offer me an orange juice and a cookie afterward, but that's so I don't fall down. But plasma is a product of blood, doesn't have to be labeled. In the United States, not only is it legal to pay for plasma, but we export tens of billions of dollars of plasma products every year. Yeah, you call this the Saudi Arabia of blood plasma. Right. So it turns out that only in a handful of countries is it legal to pay plasma donors. And those are the only countries that are self-sufficient in plasma. Everyone else who can afford it buys plasma, mostly from the U.S. It's fascinating, isn't it? These little arbitrary lines we draw. Nevertheless, there's still a lot of concern that, if we allowed blood plasma to be sold internationally, which we do, that somehow the rich countries would be sucking blood out of the poor countries. But of course, that's not the situation we're in. The United States supplies 70% of the world's plasma, and we're not a poor country. And we're the richest. So we should worry. It's a real thing to worry about that somehow rich countries would suck the blood out of poor countries. But that's not the present danger that we're in. The present danger that we're in is there are countries, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, where there isn't enough blood, and people are dying in large numbers because of shortages of blood and blood plasma. And in Western Europe, there aren't those deaths because they can buy it from the U.S. And in Australia, they can buy it from the U.S. So it's worth worrying about that we shouldn't have rich countries sucking the blood out of poor countries. But that's not what's happening. So it's important to think about the consequences. And one reason it's not happening is it turns out you need a sort of sophisticated medical industry to safely process and store and fractionate the plasma into useful pharmaceuticals. Right. Okay. So then that brings us back to kidneys, because I was impressed with your solution to this. So there have been lots of proposed solutions. Regularly, there's some legislation being proposed that would try to relieve the shortage of kidneys. And right now, there's an act that's being sponsored by quite a number of congressmen called the End Kidney Deaths Act, which is an ambitious title. I'll get a headline. It's suggesting a very modest change in the National Organ Transplant Act, which is that it would allow non-directed donors, so just a very special class of donors, to get a tax credit over a period of, I think, five years for being a non-directed donor. One reason they're saying a tax credit and one reason they're spreading it over five years is to get away from this idea that somehow people would have some desperate need for sudden cash, and that would cause them to quickly donate a kidney. Right? This is meant to be a considered decision. We owe a lot to the non-directed donors, a pretty high fraction in the neighborhood of half of the kidney exchange. Transplants that happen are in chains initiated by non-directed donors. But I heard you say you can imagine a scenario where we set a standard price for a kidney. Let's say it's $100,000. That was the example you gave. And an individual is not allowed to buy the kidney. The U.S. government has to buy the kidney. And then the U.S. government administers those kidneys with the same system we already have in place to prioritize people. None of those factors are their wealth. When a donor kidney from a cadaver becomes available, it doesn't go to the richest person. There's some criteria. So that's right. The legislation that I just mentioned, of course, only the government can give you a tax credit. So the advantage of having the government do it is we're getting away from the idea that rich people would buy kidneys from poor people. Which is our primary concern. No one would be able to pay for kidney except the federal government. And then, as you say, we would avoid all the moral problems associated with having rich people buying kidneys from poor people and potentially exploiting them. Then I guess you get into a debate about whether it's significantly more risky to donate a kidney than it is plasma. Like, how do we gradiate that difference? Yeah, that's a good question. It's not unreasonably risky to donate a kidney. You know, the deaths are one in 10,000. So that's a pretty modest risk. There are streets that you can cross in Los Angeles that give you a bigger risk than that, especially if you cross against the light. So I think that's something to seriously think about. And I talk about that. And again, that's part of the market design issue is as we're talking about these things, we should think about what are the objections? What is it that we're trying to avoid when we ban paying for kidneys? And part of it is that, you know, the rich are exploiting the poor. But, you know, we're also making it difficult for people to donate kidneys when they have to pay the costs associated with that. So that's something we have made some progress on, although it's still costly. I think that if you wanted to donate a kidney to me, you would probably have some out-of-pocket costs that wouldn't be reimbursed just because it's time consuming, it's time away from work. And we have to keep the alternative in mind, right? Because we don't want to spend $80,000 a year dying because they didn't get a kidney. Absolutely. That's exactly the alternative. Okay. So let's get into intimate affairs. You start with what brought us here, which is sex. How do we apply this lens to sex? Well, there have been lots of laws against sex, homosexual sex, for instance. And some of those laws were declared unconstitutional in Supreme Court decisions of various sorts, laws against sodomy, for example. But just incidentally, when Roe v. Wade was not so long ago reversed by the Supreme Court, Justice Thomas in his concurring opinion suggested that we should also revisit the laws that make banning sodomy unconstitutional and contraception, and of course, same-sex marriage. So these controversies are not over and done with. So historically, marriage, how has it evolved? Where did it start? So marriage is even older than I am. But of course, society has a lot of interests in marriages. And one of them, not the only one, but one of them is the care of children. So for a long time, sex with high likelihood led to pregnancy, which with high likelihood led to children, we as a society developed all these rules that said man and a woman who have sex with each other had better be prepared for raising the child that might result. And a good way to be prepared is to be married and have formed a household so that the child will have a mother and a father and someone will take care of the child. I mean, that's been true for the very largest part of human history. But good contraception changed that a little bit. That starts to make it possible to have sex without having children. The trade-offs have changed. Yeah, the trade-offs have changed. And so maybe it's okay to have sex without being married. And therefore, maybe it's okay to have sex without the intention of having children. And therefore, maybe it's okay for people of the same sex to have sex with each other, even though children don't result. And therefore, maybe marriages don't have to just be about children. So I think social norms and technology, I mean, I mentioned contraception there, but there's also in vitro fertilization. Maybe a lesbian couple, can still have children. Maybe a gay male couple can still have children. A single person. Yeah, a single person, right. So maybe our idea of who can be a parent should be different. And then maybe our idea of who can adopt a child should be different. There was a lot of reason for society to think that people who can have sex with each other should be married to each other to be ready to catch the baby. But many of those things are no longer so urgent. And we have come to recognize that marriage has other advantages to the people who are married to each other than just their ability to help each other raise children. And so we came to feel in the United States, not everyone, and not quickly and not easily, but we came to feel that maybe people should be able to marry each other, even if they couldn't have children. You bring up Alan Turing, you talk about him a bit in this chapter. Okay. So Alan Turing is a great man. I mean, people should know his name. Every computer scientist does. He sort of invented computer science. I mean, that's a too broad a statement, but computer science, you mentioned von Neumann and game theory. There's a sense in which you could mention Turing and computer science. During World War II, he was also a codebreaker and helped shorten the war by breaking the German Enigma code, by helping break the German Enigma code. He was British, but he was homosexual. And after the war, he was convicted of being a homosexual. I forget the criminal phrase. He was sentenced to be chemically castrated and he committed suicide. So today it's legal to be homosexual in Britain and in the United States, you know, and this is sort of an ancient horror, but it's not that ancient. Wow. So he didn't get the chemical castration. No, he got it. He got it and then killed himself? Yeah, yeah. He wasn't happy. Oh my goodness. How does this rear up in marriage and adoption? So the question is, do we allow people of the same sex to marry each other? That was a repugnant transaction. You know, remember, I use the word repugnant not to mean that I don't like something or that you shouldn't like it, but that some people don't like it. That was a big fight. The first legalization of same-sex marriage in the United States came in the early 2000 in Massachusetts through a court decision, the Massachusetts Supreme Court. And then what happened wasn't the. It wasn't that lots of other states fell into law. And what happened was lots of other states amended their constitutions to make same-sex marriage the only kind of marriage allowed in their constitution. And the reason was the way the Massachusetts court ruled is it said the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has a constitution that requires equality before the law and we're not treating gay people equally. Yeah. There's a legal right marriage. Right. The first thing wasn't that everybody legalized same-sex marriage. It was that they made constitutional amendments so that their courts couldn't. find a right in their constitution. But eventually, in Obergefell, is the name of the Supreme Court decision, eventually the Supreme Court decided that equal protection of the law, especially once many states recognized same-sex marriage and others didn't, equal protection of the law required everyone to recognize it. And that's where we are now. This is another Nobel Prize winner, the IVF doctor. So what's the repugnant nature. Jonathan Edward. So he invented, he and colleagues, Nobel Prizes always are, you know, leave out colleagues. He and colleagues invented in vitro fertilization in the 1970s. And By the time he got the Nobel Prize in the late 20th century, maybe later than that, I think his Nobel Prize was just a little earlier than mine. So in the 2000s, millions of people had been born through IVF over, you know, the last 40 years. So he won a Nobel Prize for it. But at the same time, there were people objecting that he was a murderer. And the objection specifically about murder for IVF is that more embryos are created than are fertilized into fetuses and become people. And if you think that the embryo is a person, and the ones that are not used are perhaps murders, especially when they're discarded. The nature of repugnant transactions is you can be vastly celebrated. You know, the Nobel Prize is a giant week-long party in Stockholm. And at the same time, have people picketing and calling you a murderer. So these are fundamental disagreements we have when we talk about repugnant transactions and morally contested markets. But of course, IVF, some people think it's murder, but millions of people are alive because of it. They think of it as life-giving. And of course, millions more, you know, it allowed them to have children. But the children, the people born of IVF, they don't think of it as murder. How can we come to some conclusion through an economic model on that issue? So it turns out to be hard to prevent IVF. When you look at Western Europe, there are countries that prevent. These laws are always subject to change. But I believe in Germany, unmarried women are not allowed to have IVF. That's a shocker. Yeah, but in Spain, there's not an obstacle. So if you are an unmarried, unmarried woman who needs to become pregnant and doesn't have another way of doing it, you can go to Spain and become pregnant. Then you come back to Germany and you're a pregnant German woman. You're undifferentiable from other pregnant German women and you go into the healthcare system and you have a baby and the baby is a German citizen. So it turns out making a law that says we don't recognize IVF can stop people who can't afford to travel to Spain, but they don't stop everyone. And so maybe it's an unequal law in that respect too, right? It allows the rich, to do things that we don't think should be the preserve of the rich. Yeah, it's almost reverse engineered eugenics in some bizarre way. It's like, okay, we're going to select for who can do this. One of the things I talk about in the book, Moral Economics, is often you ban something and you hand it over to criminals, which is very often not a satisfactory solution. But it's also hard to ban things that are legal in some nearby jurisdiction. Hence the abortion issue. The abortion and surrogacy and IVF. Surrogacy is more complicated because you have to bring a baby home with you. But IVF, you know, you're a pregnant German woman. Yeah, it could happen on vacation. Yeah, absolutely. Perfectly legal on vacation. You're allowed to be a single woman. You just have to have gotten pregnant naturally. Sure. That's so strange. That's an interesting distinction. Yeah, exactly. Okay, in section two of the book, we look at protection from harm. And these ones are great. And probably the ones I'm personally most interested in. So step one is alcohol and drugs. And you do this fun thing where you list a lot of different drugs. You say, "Caffeine, tobacco, heroin, marijuana, opioids, alcohol." And if you were asked to put those in order of threat, based on your community, where you live, the order would be what? The order of acceptability. Yes. So coffee is most acceptable in my community. You know, it's a great performance enhancing drug. We regard it as food. I don't think we limit children. No. It's great. So everyone likes coffee. Then we start to get to tougher drugs. Wine. Wine and Calisthenics. California is pretty popular. Not in Utah. But, you know, it's a big industry in California, which is in trouble now. You know, as wine consumption goes down, our friends in Napa Valley, some of them are going to grow condominium instead of grapes. Yeah. Which might make California less nice in some ways. Yeah. But marijuana is also popular in some circles. I think I had trouble ordering those in what I guess is acceptable. You know, hard drugs are definitely not acceptable in my community. But some people have troubles with them. And some of them have gotten into trouble with them sort of inadvertently. That is, for medical reasons, they've been prescribed opioids and then become addicted. I think you're right. Your assertion is that most places are going to end on opioids. Of that list of things, drugs I just gave you, most people are going to put opioids as the worst. Yeah. And they're significantly troubling. There's been years in the last decade where we've had 100,000 people die. Overdose deaths. Yes. It's a very real threat. But let's talk about the numbers for tobacco. Yeah. So tobacco kills more people than opioids. And alcohol kills more people than tobacco. In your book, of 3 million people that die from the CDC, 500,000 are cigarette-related a year. And then for alcohol, it's 175,000 a year. As I recall now, what I say is just conjecturing. Maybe the tobacco deaths are less repugnant because they're not sudden. Yeah, the suddenness is really fascinating, isn't it? Why that elevates it so much in our mind. But of course, alcohol includes some sudden deaths. Right? Both behind the wheel and just alcohol poisoning. Yeah, like 60,000 people a year do die of a sudden version of alcohol death. So I think some of this just has to do with what you're used to. We allowed tobacco. There were small attempts around the time of prohibition to make alcohol illegal. When I started writing the book, one of the things I thought might be true was that tobacco had never been illegal. That turns out not to be true. There have been laws against tobacco in various times and places. Oh, really? But, you know, you say, oh, really, right? We're now restricting tobacco and marijuana. We're sort of on opposite trajectories. Right? Marijuana used to be illegal, Schedule 1, you know, like heroin. And tobacco, we'd give agricultural subsidies to tobacco farmers. And now, more and more, we're saying you can't smoke inside buildings and on airplanes. And we're making it tougher to smoke tobacco. And we're making it easier to smoke or otherwise ingest marijuana. Just anecdotally, I've seen people confront people for smoking cigarettes in public, outside, multiple times. My children will do it. When I see people smoking marijuana, no one says anything. I think that's really interesting and telling. Like, you walk around New York City now, and people are smoking joints everywhere. No one's, like, making a big thing of it. Part of it's societal. What we just have decided is in vogue and not. I mean, smoking's coming back. Yeah, that's crazy. A lot of younger people are smoking again. Well, there's vaping and things like that. And vaping, too. But even cigarettes, it's weird. I don't know what. I mean, I think maybe because people stopped talking about how bad it was for you that people kind of back on it, which is not good. Yeah, I think it's suffering from the same reality that the polio vaccine did, which is, like, no one alive today saw someone walking with a walker at 19 years old from polio, so they're not afraid to not vaccinate their kid. I remember seeing people who were with polio. Sure, sure. My grandfather's throat was permanently paralyzed from polio. But young parents who are deciding whether or not to get a polio vaccine, they didn't see it, so it's out of mind. And there's a big upswell of younger influencers are smoking in public, and I think it's because they've seen it. They've stopped seeing the lung cancer patients that we grew up seeing plastered everywhere as cautionary tales and people missing their mandible from dipping. Like, those went away. It was on the downward decline, and I think they took their foot off the gas, and now it's on the incline. But let's talk about prohibition. So what happens in 19— 20s and 30s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We prohibited most sales of alcohol, not sales for religious purposes, not sales for certain kinds of medicinal purposes. But, by and large, we prohibited the sale of alcohol. The Olmstead Act, you could brew in your home. So there was a big upsurge in the sale of wine grapes. Synagogue membership. Membership in synagogues. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, that's really funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I taught for many years at the University of Pittsburgh, and the state of Pennsylvania had, and I think still has, a liquor monopoly. It's only sold in state stores, and state stores are closed on Sunday. But the store that sold Judaica, Jewish things, and they could sell kosher wine even on Sundays. Oh, really? They went from no business— And you had to— You had to scribble something that was supposed to be what shul you went to, what synagogue you belonged to. But you could have gone in and scribbled something. They were interested in your scribbles. Wow. Kind of like the medical marijuana card. Yeah, I remember how— Yeah, there was a great comedian that said he went to get his medical marijuana card, and they said, are you having trouble sleeping 12 hours a night? Yeah, exactly. He said, yes, I can only sleep for about eight hours. Here you go, you need this. Exactly. So that's right. But that wasn't the main way that— All came into the U.S. Some was production, there were stills. Incidentally, NASCAR, you know, the stock car racing, in their national museum, they have a still. And one of the reasons is some of the heroes of NASCAR racing were people who they were modeled on. You were coming into town from the still, and you had to be able to outrace the police. And particularly, you wanted a plain-looking car that was super modified to be really fast, so you wouldn't draw attention. To be really fast and have a lot of product in the back. Yeah. And so stock cars— Interesting. These big, gangly cars are what they decided to race, not coupes, not Corvettes or anything, sedans. You can tell right away that a ban is going to have trouble when it starts generating folk heroes. You know, when the people who violate it are Robin Hood, not Al Capone. Now, they were also Al Capone. And the Kennedys famously got a lot of their wealth through this? There was a lot of importation from Canada. Canada went through various forms of prohibition and trying it without ever stopping the production and sale of alcohol. And so you could legally buy— whiskey, Seagram's in Canada, and then illegally bring it into the United States. There's a big border. There's a big Atlantic seaboard. I think the St. Valentine's Day massacre in Chicago was gangs fighting over importation, not just production. How is all the Canadian liquor going to get into the United States and be sold? Yeah. So it was very hard to stop. You know, much as it's hard to stop surrogacy by making it illegal in Germany if people can come to the United States, it was hard to stop drinking alcohol if it could be legally sold in Canada. Yeah. in Canada. Yeah, it's funny. We've only had success in the war on drugs one time, really. And that was during the Quaalude epidemic of the 70s and 80s. Because it turned out there was only a single chemical factory in Switzerland that was capable of producing this. So if they could shut that one down, they could succeed and they did succeed. But that's about the only victory. When they've tried to do math, it's like you've got several hundred chemists in India that are making the precursor compound. So it can go elsewhere. It's like unless there's a single source to these things, they're nearly impossible to ever shut down. But we got to evaluate what the efficacy of trying to pinch it as much as we can. So let's talk about drugs because I grew up saying I had a very libertarian view on it. I thought that it should be decriminalized. I thought it should be taxed and regulated and get rid of the black market. And then the experiment was run in front of my eyes in San Francisco and in Portland. And in a few other places on the West Coast. And I got to say, I have completely reversed my position on it. And there's a lot of these trade-offs that aren't maybe not obvious when you're first evaluating it. Like, okay, let's even say that addiction went down and the deaths went down. Well, the city itself now, it's an open-air market. We were in San Francisco doing a live show. And there's people, TV trays just selling it. People shooting dope in the stairwells of these nice brown suns. It's like, well, the whole city's now paid a price for this. So there's so many variables we need to evaluate. Tell me about drugs and how you make a case. What's the case for both sides and what you think it leans towards? I think drugs are a case where we don't know what to do. We're losing the war on drugs, but it's not accepting our surrender. Our federal prisons have 40-some-odd percent of the prisoners have drug convictions. So we're imprisoning people like mad. By the millions. But we're not making drugs so scarce or even so expensive that poor people can't buy them. So we're losing the war on drugs. But as you say, when we just say, so we're making it non-criminal, that doesn't drive down the number of. Or overdoses. Or overdoses, right. And having people with Narcan available doesn't exactly solve the problem either. So we need to think of better things to do. And we need to experiment to find better things to do. So I don't know what the solution is. The solution may well involve incarceration as part of the solution. But incarcerating people and then letting them out still drug addicts or soon to again be drug addicts isn't helpful. So incarceration is going to continue to be part of the solution. It seems to me we have a responsibility to make treatment part of incarceration. Yeah, and really quick, talk about the paradox between contracting a killer and selling drugs. Right, right. So I have a sentence in the book that says something like, why is it so easy to buy drugs and so hard to hire a hitman? And that has to do with the social norms about drugs and commercial killing. There's almost zero convictions a year of hiring a hitman. It's not even in the FBI crime statistics. And they carry a virtually similar penalty. That's right. In both cases, if we catch you selling narcotics or killing for hire, we will lock you up as long as we can. And we're pretty effective at both of those. But again, the prisons are full of drug dealers and there are hardly any hitmen. So the way I thought about that in the book is the following. Supposing at the end of our chat I say to you, you know, you're a guy from Los Angeles. You probably know where I can buy heroin on my way home. Well, you'd be really surprised. Probably most of your podcasts don't end with that kind of request for information. Yeah. And you'd think, whoa, you know, this guy. Al is crazy. That's really too bad. Or confident. Yeah, yeah. You know, he seemed so coherent when we were talking to him. But he must be getting senile. And that would sort of be the end of it. Maybe you'd decide not to publish the podcast because you wouldn't want to have guys like me on your show. But supposing I said to you, you know, I'm an academic and every time I write a paper, there are referees. You know, the joke in academia is referee number two. You know, he's always the one who hates your paper. And I just can't take it anymore. I've identified one of my academic enemies at UCLA. And you look to me like the kind. The kind of guy who would know where I could hire a hitman. What do you say? Well, probably you don't know where I could hire a hitman. But even if you did, you wouldn't tell me because that wouldn't be a good thing to do. But afterward, you wouldn't just say, oh, that sure took a strange turn, that conversation. You'd say, maybe we should call the police. Yes, exactly. Here's someone who wants a murder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we should call the police. And if you called the police, first of all, if you'd called the police when I said, where can I buy heroin? They'd say to you, so you met a professor who asked you where he could buy heroin and you're calling the police? You know, we're. We're very busy. There's lots of real crime in Los Angeles. Leave us alone. But if you called him and said, I talked to this professor from the Bay Area and he wants to hire a hitman to kill someone in Los Angeles, they'd say, is it too late? Call him back and tell him, you know, before he gets on the plane, he should come to this bar in Burbank. Ask for Joe and Joe will take care of him. And Joe would take care of me. A lot of the convictions for attempted hiring of killers is when the person doing the hiring talks to an undercover police. There are so many drug deals, it doesn't make sense to try to preempt them one by one. But there are so few murders that it makes a lot of sense to try to preempt them one by one. And the police would be glad to send some tough looking guy in plain clothes to talk to me and have me explain who I wanted murdered and then arrest me. What fresh perspective do we need to apply to this drug? First of all, I think we're doing great on Hitman. We should keep it up. Yeah, well done. We have this really tough law against commercial killing. And it seems to be largely working. Most murders, people are killed by people who love them or who they know or who live in their neighborhood. And commercial killing is very little. Let's keep it that way. So I like the laws that say if we catch you, we throw you in jail as long as we can. The same laws are not doing the same good job for addictive drugs. So I think we ought to be experimenting with what to do. And I applauded the experiment of decriminalizing. We had to try it. And I agree with you that they didn't work. Even the plans, you know, the thing about decriminalizing. Because that's cheap. Whereas the other part of the plan, which is make treatment readily available and easy to get when you need it. Which is like right now before I go take another dose of drugs. That turns out to be expensive. So we let people buy and sell on the street. And we didn't do anything to help them or didn't do very much to help them kick the habit. Yeah, we kept citing these different experiments that were run in Portugal and Spain. But we just applied one side of it, which is none of the resources, none of the help. We're just like, okay, let's decriminalize. Well, I think in Portugal they're also having recognition. That they weren't giving enough help. And they were getting open air markets and things like that. And that's a real cost, right? Cities have to be good to live in. I mean, most of us live in cities. Yeah, and you're evaluating their rights against mine. Absolutely. So you don't want to find habitable needles in the school playground. No, no, no. No one wants to live in that city or play on that playground. Right. We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff. But there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through. Threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open. Not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly, is different. It's already right there. Inside your email. Your docs. Your browser. You don't go to it. It's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread. Highlight it. And it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands. It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. 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So, we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is, obviously, social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers? Which is a fair question. Yeah, so Instagram has got something called teen accounts. And they come with automatic protections built in by default. So, anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age-appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that, by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also social media. Sleep mode is genius. Right? And here's the thing. For anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on. And Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age-appropriate experiences for teens. 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Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com. So what kind of experiments do you think need to be run? One of the things we don't like is deaths with overdose. So one thing that people have been talking about is safe injection spaces. So that wouldn't cut down on addiction, but it might cut down on overdose deaths so that you're in a place where there's someone keeping an eye that you stay conscious. Now, that's pretty controversial because a place like that would need some police protection. Not everyone who comes is a nice person. Whereas the police think, you know, do you want us to protect these guys? Our job is to arrest them. So we'd have to think hard about how to organize the laws. And the rules and what would happen. Again, what you'd really like is treatment. So we need to understand more about how to treat addiction. There have been some technological progress in that, you know, things like methadone. Well, GLP-1s are now starting to show a lot of. Absolutely. So that would be great if there could be drugs and maybe you could have them prescribed so they'd be available to you. Maybe you could be mandated to take them, sort of in the manner of methadone. So I think we need to be on the lookout and we have to be thinking about how we can combine police services and criminology. And housing for the homeless. You know, a lot of addiction is to painkillers and people who are homeless are, in a certain sense, in a lot of pain. Some of that process, if we made it easier to get decent housing. These things all probably touch each other in various ways that I don't claim to understand. But I think we have to be thinking about them that way, not just as a criminal problem that we have to solve. I think we have a really interesting example in our laps right now that we don't fully understand yet, which is we all recognize alcoholism is an issue. No one disagrees with that. We tried through prohibition and it only decreased alcohol consumption for the first three years and then it rebounded beautifully. We're weirdly in a phase right now where alcohol consumption is in a nosedive. And I don't know that we have a great explanation of what's driving that nosedive, but I think we had better find out what it is because I think it's very interesting that we're getting the thing we wanted, but we didn't do anything. Right. Now, there are surveys that suggest that the number of daily users of marijuana now exceed the number of daily drinkers. So my current theory, but again, I haven't seen any of the work on this. But yeah, my assumption is that where you're seeing weed consumption available, you're seeing alcohol go down. And for me, objectively, I'd rather see people consume marijuana than alcohol. I think it's far less dangerous. Jonathan Heigl. It would say and does, I think, that the reason alcohol is down and also probably why the reason marijuana is up. Marijuana, you can do that in isolation. People smoke at their house by themselves. They do gummies. Alcohol is a social drug. Not for alcoholics. Well, for alcoholics, but I mean, generally, alcohol is a social drug. And as younger people are being more isolated on their phones, social media, they're staying in. They're not going out and hanging out with friends and getting a drink. They're on their phone. So I think he would say, yeah, that looks good, but actually it's not good because everyone's so isolated. And I think there's something to that. It's probably dynamic and multifaceted. Yeah, I was pointing out to him because his worldview is everything about the Internet and social media is bad. And I said, what about this uptick in healthy eating and reduction in drinking and better savings? You can't ignore all these other things that are upticking hugely as the suicide rate goes up 9%. But yes, that's his explanation. But regardless, I think we need to know what the explanation is, right? There might be multiple explanations, but there's no question that a lot of things are affected by social norms. But social norms aren't things that we know very much about how to change. You can't legislate them. They seem to change slowly. You said that there's an upsurge in tobacco smoking. It's not just health concerns that drive down alcohol. One thing that's driving it down is there used to be some thought that maybe alcohol had some protective properties, that drinking red wine was good for you. Yeah. Good for your heart. I'm still sticking with that a little bit. Those were the days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I miss those days. Doing my heart a favor with this glass of wine tonight. Yeah. Exactly. So that cuts it down a little. Yeah, there's probably different causality within each socioeconomic rung. I'm meeting a lot of people in my circle that are limiting their drinking because of the new studies that have come out that are concluding it's terrible for you, right? But that's not why an 18-year-old, their longevity is not at the forefront. That's not why they're doing it. But I think there are these cycles that are generational too. In other words, grandparents drank cocktails, then your parents drank wine, and now you're smoking weed. Yeah, you don't want to do what your parents did in some way. There's some rejection. Okay, can we talk about vaccines for a bit? And then I just want to talk about what emerging controversies you see coming our way and how we can apply this market view to them. So vaccines, we kind of brought it up a minute ago. Okay, so vaccines turn out to be controversial. Who would have thought? And they're controversial at the highest levels of government right now. So we're seeing measles again. We'd sort of had measles beat, but it used to be a really controversial thing. Yeah, it used to be a really controversial thing. It's a really dangerous disease. And of course, it has negative externalities. If your kid goes to kindergarten and there's somebody with measles in the kindergarten, then your kid is going to bring measles home, especially if your kid isn't vaccinated. So it's a dangerous disease. So we just went through COVID, where miraculously, technologically, vaccines would develop with uncanny speed. I remember the long trek to polio when I was a small child, and eventually getting first SOP and then Sabin in elementary school. They lined us up and walked us through the gym, and we all took a. We took a sugar cube with a purple liquid in it. It was oral. SOP was a shot, and Sabin was oral. Oh, okay. That was a big deal because I had contemporaries who were in leg braces, and parents wouldn't let you go to public swimming pools in the summer. Polio was a real vivid threat, but it took years to get a vaccine. So we very quickly got COVID vaccines. Now, of course, after you got COVID vaccines, you have to test them. And testing vaccines is a little complicated because you have to test them in places where there's lots of COVID. You have to find hot spots because, for example, testing them in a place that COVID has already swept through isn't a good way to test them. So the way you test vaccines is you have to predict it a little bit. You find a hot spot, you enroll 40,000 people in your trial, 20,000 of them you give the vaccine to, and 20,000 you don't. You have to wait a couple of months because even in a hot spot, people can go through their daily life without getting exposed. So you have to wait until enough people have gotten exposed in the two groups so that you can see the big difference, hopefully, between the vaccinated group and the unvaccinated group, and that tells you that. What are the ethics of giving half that group the placebo, though? People don't seem to object to that because you don't yet have an authorized vaccine, so the whole population is not getting the vaccine. But there was a movement for what are called human challenge trials, or human infection trials. So there were a lot of people who signed up with an organization called One Day Sooner. Their argument was, we, mostly we, young, healthy-- Males. Males. We're willing to test vaccines. So we're willing to be exposed to the disease to be part of a vaccine trial, some of whom would get the vaccine and some wouldn't. But we also don't know if the vaccine is going to be effective. And their argument was, young, healthy males, you know, people in their 20s who have no comorbidities, it's mostly not a dangerous disease. And if we could even get a vaccine available one day sooner, hence the name of the organization, think of the trillions of dollars that would save given that the world is shut down for COVID. Well, we didn't do those. Because by and large, people thought it would be immoral to give people COVID when you didn't have a vaccine for it. Even if they're signing up themselves. Even if they're signing up. And thousands of people signed up because we were all locked down. People signed up and they were passionate about it. They'd say, you know, this gives me a chance to make a difference instead of just passively hiding in my house from this dread disease. But we didn't do it. And there was a lot of discussion. I got involved in some of it about, maybe we should. I mean, we let people fight fires, even though running into a burning building that everyone else is running out of is dangerous. Everyone's fighting for us. And we don't have a vaccine for fires. But we honor firefighters who protect us. And so these people had that kind of feeling. They wanted to be firefighters. They wanted to help you beat the pandemic. But we didn't allow them to. And possibly that was a mistake in the sense that it really was costly to the world to have all those lockdowns, just as the disease itself was costly. But of course, that's now a minor story. Now that we have government officials who are against measles vaccines, we already know that measles vaccines work. I think the moral conundrum comes with vaccines. So I'm a very outspoken vaccine advocate. There are people that protest, my wife and I, when we go places, the anti-vaxxers, right? So I'm very declared on. But I also totally, in a libertarian way, think if you don't want to get you, Alvin, don't want to get the measles vax, I believe that's your right. I don't think you should have to put anything in your body. You don't want to. So I'm fine with that. And if you can track measles, that's on you. Should I be able to send my child to a public hospital? Well, this is where I'm going to go. Where the moral conundrum for me lies is the children of someone that are making that decision. They're minors. Should they have to inherit your decision on it, and are you putting a minor at risk? That's where it's most juicy in a moral debate. So how do you feel about that zone? I think it depends on what the morality argument is. What comes to mind is there are small groups of Christian believers who don't like blood transfusions. Jehovah's Witnesses are among them, and they don't like blood transfusions because their reading of Scripture says that God is omnipotent, and if God wants to save you, he saves you, and if he doesn't want to save you, he doesn't save you, and you shouldn't mess with that decision. But of course, they also have children, and sometimes their children need blood transfusions. So Witnesses have a population center in Boston, and there are some hospitals in Boston that are used to treating Witnesses and the children of Witnesses. And if you're a Jehovah's Witness and an adult, and you say, no transfusion, they won't give you a transfusion, and you might die of whatever your disease is, or you might have to forego certain kinds of surgeries, that would require a transfusion to make them safe. But there are now hospitals that treat Witness children, and there's sort of a well-grooved pathway where the parents say, no transfusions, we're Witnesses, and everyone understands that. And if the child needs a transfusion, there are judges who you can go to for an injunction that say, this child needs a transfusion right now, and you can get it, and everyone understands that. And from the point of view of the Witnesses is, we said no, God works in mysterious ways. Our hands are kind of clean. And God wanted them to live. God did this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, God could have stopped the injunction, so we're good. Right, there's some workarounds. It's like the Amish can be driven to the hospital in a car, but they can't operate the car themselves. My mother's boyfriend, Dan, his mother died. She's a Jehovah's Witness because they refused a blood transfusion. As you say, an adult can refuse, but the question for children, and the fact that I know about these hospitals means that Jehovah's Witnesses know about these hospitals. You send your kid to this hospital because they have a good record of treating the children of Witnesses, and God works in mysterious ways. Yeah. I think that we have more difficulty seeing the merits of opposing views when we're talking about something that we think is a matter of morality than when we're talking about other things. Yeah. Can economics help us through that? Well, there are ways of arguing that might help us. In other words, there aren't enough kidneys for transplant, but we were able to get kidney exchange going, even though there are people who are pretty opposed to most ways of increasing the number of transplants. But that was a way of increasing the transplants that didn't arouse so much opposition. That's not true everywhere. Kidney exchange still isn't legal in Brazil and in Germany. Even if you're a donor? Yeah. The rule in both places is you couldn't give me a kidney. My brother could give me a kidney, but you can't. Yes, it has to be a first-order member of the family. Okay. And the German prosecutors have no sense of humor about this. So if my brother wants to give me a kidney and you want to give a kidney to your brother, but we're incompatible, the fact that everything has been satisfied except the medical compatibility issue, they wouldn't allow you to give me a kidney and my brother to give your brother a kidney. But those laws are subject to change. The German health ministry has a draft that they're trying to put through the Bundestag. And they'll have us as an example. We're running the trial. Exactly. Oh, so we have permission to do clinical trials in Brazil, right? So it's against the law to do kidney exchange in Brazil, but just as unapproved drugs, you can do clinical trials. There are now a few, a small number of kidney exchanges going on in Brazil as a clinical trial to see if it works in Brazil. And we're confident it will work in Brazil because it works everywhere else. The hope is once we have 20 or 30 people who got transplants that way, it can go to. to the Brazilian legislature and say, this works, let's make it legal. Yeah. Okay, so what about the road ahead? What are some emerging controversies? So one is betting on sports or on other things for that matter. Sports betting on apps and prediction markets. And for a long time, we didn't allow betting on sports or we'd limited it. I think you could always pretty much bet on horse racing in the United States. Because after all, how can you not bet on horse racing? Don't eat them. Exactly. Exactly. That's part of the fun. That's why you don't eat them. They're for betting, not for eating. Exactly, exactly. But still, you would go to a racetrack to do it. So one problem with sports betting on your phone is it's potentially addictive. Yeah, not potentially. You know, you could bet throughout the game on specific things. Will the next free throw go in? So it's addictive. Another thing is you can try to influence the athletes so that your bets will come in more. Those are coming out more and more and more. Almost daily, we get another scandal. And it used to be that there was always this climb associated with gambling and sports about influence. And it used to be that the typical kind of involvement of criminals in sports was in point shaving. So you're a basketball player, and I'm asking you to not win by so much. Cover the spread. Your team will still win. Could even be losing. As long as you lose by six, I'll still win. So there were some famous scandals of that sort in the 1950s. One of them that I get to follow occasionally on the internet because one of the protagonists was named Alvin Roth. Oh, wow. So in the book, I had to proofread the internet and they had one entry for Alvin Roth and I made them change it. I hope they've changed it to Alvin, quote, Fats, end quote, Roth, which is how he's talked about in Wikipedia. But he was banned for life from the NBA and would have gone to jail but was allowed to join the army instead. Yes. And this is where we get back into paternalism a little bit because we had, of course, Michael Lewis on and he had a great 10-part podcast about the impact on young males of this online betting. And it's stark. It's stark. It's stark. The rate of bankruptcy, the rate of suicide, all these metrics are skyrocketing. No, it's a real addiction. Not everyone is subject to it, of course. But it's significant. And again, we have this little bit of a crossroads, which is like, you should be allowed to destroy your life in some sense. You know, we believe that in this country. You should be allowed to drink alcohol if it's on you. But we know better, right? We know better for these young men. It's very paternalistic for us to say you shouldn't have the right to become insolvent. You should be allowed to drink alcohol, but we don't serve it in elementary school cafeterias. We try to regulate it a little bit. Bartenders have a certain responsibility. They can cut you off and may have to. You know, they may be liable. There's a warning label on the bottle. Also, we stop serving alcohol in public at certain times. So gambling, maybe it'll benefit from being re-regulated that way. It's a pretty recent thing that we've allowed the sports betting. A Supreme Court decision again. So there's two things we've talked about. One is the addictive feature of betting on the game. The other is the effect on sports. If you're asking athletes, if you're pressuring athletes not to make the last free throw because you've got to bet. And of course, we're seeing this now with prediction markets. If you know someone who knows that the president of Venezuela is about to be abducted, you could make a lot of money on a prediction market by betting on that. You know, that's a little worrisome if you worry about corruption in high office and what's for sale and what isn't. Yeah, I think prior to this, you just had the credit default swap market, which heavily incentivized these people for businesses to go bankrupt and heavily incentivized them to start rumors like Bear Stearns. A rumor. We've learned a lot. We have to keep up with it because it's always changing. We've learned a lot about regulating financial markets. We don't believe that insider trading is OK on securities markets. Unless you're in Congress, but yes. Unless you're in Congress. Yeah, yeah. What can you do? Yeah, what can you do? So I'm a big fan of regulation. Regulation is part of market design. We shouldn't be just thinking about banning things or allowing them unrestrictedly. We should be thinking about managing them, especially when they're things that we can't, ban even if we would like to, like alcohol. So decriminalizing drugs, we probably need to treat addicts more like patients than like criminals compared to what we're doing now, but maybe not completely not like criminals because it's very compelling to be addicted to something. You know, I think there's a quote I found that's attributed to Mark Twain, which probably means he never really said it, which says, quitting smoking is easy. I've done it a thousand times. We can regulate the amount of nicotine in cigarettes. You know, we've had all sorts of financial, financial settlements with tobacco companies having to do with what they knew about the addictive qualities of nicotine. And similarly, we've started to restrict and think about how to regulate vaping, which might have something to be said for it if you're a two-pack-a-day cigarette smoker. Maybe switching to non-combustible is good for you. But if you're a middle school student, it's a terrible idea to get addicted to nicotine, which is apparently, you know, a very powerful addictor. I'm the product of this law. It happened and I was furious. They outlawed in California flavored tobacco. And I liked wintergreen. So I was having, like, my father-in-law bring some from Nevada, right? I'm, like, smuggling it in. Every time someone would come to visit, they'd have to bring me a sleeve. And then I finally quit, like, two years ago on New Year's. But I'll say it was largely helped by when I walk into 7-Eleven, it's not even there. There was a hurdle for me that I would be lying if I said didn't help dramatically. Sure. And it's all but gone now because everyone liked all the flavors. And I'm like, God, I hate to admit that that kind of worked because the age and libertarian in me was like, I hate it, it helps, and it's true. No, that's right. So the morally contested markets, behavioral problems with things like addiction are not going to be zero-one solutions. It's not that you pass a law, now we're done, we passed the law, everything's good. We're going to inch towards a better and better percentage is all we're going to do. And we're going to have to think about trade-offs and do experiments and learn what works. And that's really what I'm concluding in this book. Yes. Well, Alvin Roth, it's been a blast. I need to talk to you. The book is Moral Economics, From Prostitution to Organ Sales, What Controversial Transactions Reveal About How Markets Work. I love your book. I hope everyone checks it out and it was a delight to meet you. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you guys too. Hi there, this is Hermium Permium. If you like that, you're going to love the fact check with Miss Monica. I have my glasses on, not to cover up my stye. Oh. My journal entry this morning started as, My sty's the captain now. okay so i just want to read you i got a couple of screen grabs i want to share with you wait we're not done talking about your sty well that was it i just hate it i wanted to say i have my glasses on to read this not to cover my style okay go ahead and ask me about my style um how does it feel the same i've been hot on antibiotics right drops drop not oral not oral and i've been hot compressing like a very good boy i know but i've been hot compressing okay but what i'm gonna read is in reference to our foot fetish debate oh okay or us trying to figure it out okay so this was interesting this is from um miss missa 13 watching the fact check rachel mentioned the homunculus and brain mapping your foot fetish combo is explained in big part by this if you look at a diagram of what your brain thinks your body looks like wrt nerve sensation e.g. sensitivity the genitals and feet are right next to each other and huge hence the arousal stimulation is very subjective and nuanced based on the topography of someone's nugget interesting that's pretty fascinating yeah i have no way to fact check that i'm not going to consult a neurologist i thought he's green red but another one another one was just really walking us through why she loves feet her thing is like bare feet represent it was a woman it was a woman okay and she's like bare feet to her represent a level of comfort and safety that you can take your shoes off and be vulnerable like the whole thing to her reads is this like intimacy kind of that offering of vulnerability good i can only see that it's like my sick thing ding ding ding i took the dremel to my toenail last night i didn't even i wouldn't even know i was going to talk about feet so much nah well mostly because i'm wearing lace-up shoes today it's just too much i'm so lazy with my footwear i love a slip-on nowadays and when i decide to wear these shoes these high top converse i literally go well i'm gonna lace them up now and i'm not taking them off till i go to bed i don't want to be i don't want to be i know you you even put your shoes on the bed don't say that i've seen it i've seen it it's always when you are wearing those because like probably you just don't feel like taking your shoes off yeah i would kick off normal shoes but i gotta bend over and but you don't wear enough loafers for someone who likes to slip on well but i have slip-on vans and i have my low top converse loose enough that i can slide in and out but you've never tried out a loaf i hate loafers i've tried many of them i've tried many of them i've tried many of them i've tried many times they look great on you and everyone should wear loafers they look great on everyone on me they look preposterous if anything is like outside of my vibe i really think a loafers where the rubber meets the road no i could see you in a loafer with like a sweater that's a different person but yeah you you wear sweaters i've got you multiple sweaters yeah it's true i've got you sweaters you wear them all the time that's true you have a you have a knack for choosing sweaters i i love and you wear a cardigan my my gray burberry one that's in massive rotation yeah that's a great one just for the green row one recently yeah great one you could wear definitely wear that with a loaf monica i know you like it you're picturing it seems organic but i promise if you saw me in a loafer you'd be like hold on what's going on because then i gotta wear a dress pant no loafers and jeans is a very specific dude and i'm not that dude that's a connecticut went to harvard no no you have yes you have an old school like you have an old school mentality flair you know you have an old school mentality about what you can wear loafers with and who's wearing loafers and that kind of thing yeah you have an old school not a lot of blue collar tradesmen wearing loafers i'll just say that and that's that's kind of where i anchor my i know but like go ahead blue collar tradesmen aren't wearing burberry sweaters either oh i was just gonna say you're just not him anymore yeah i know but i'm just gonna say you're just not him anymore yeah i know but i'm just gonna say but i i i intend to stay that way okay yeah um okay i have something so sim okay tell me so i was at a restaurant with jess that i frequent a lot okay and that we frequent a lot him and i and the server said you know i just want to flag for you guys that on our system and i think but a lot of systems on our system it just shows the last three digits of the credit card and him and i have the exact same last three digits of our credit card serendipity isn't that crazy kismet which is like i was like oh my god like i thought that was so cool yeah and then it's immediately scared jess oh which the reason the guy was flagging it is like so when you guys like if you split there's a chance that it's going to be like oh my god like i thought that was so cool it's gonna go to the wrong card it's gonna be like attributed to the wrong card why do either of you have credit cards on file at restaurants we don't you say why don't we well how are they gonna how are they gonna mix up a split if you've handed the person your credit card well no we put it on the table yeah still not understanding what sounded like to me is that it's in the computer system and that they might click the wrong thing no it's not that then what is it i don't know but jess of course he went back there he wanted to see on the computer and he did he said yeah it is like the last three yeah i still don't understand what the issue is because you're gonna hand them the credit card every single time right you don't have a long you don't have an account or a tab at these places no we don't but maybe they throw on 682 that would be a problem okay maybe they swipe it and type in the amount because with tip it's like with tip and stuff like if i'm tipping fifty dollars maybe they type that in five back of the credit or like they're like oh this is the credit card that gets fifty dollars tip this credit card gets a hundred dollars it was obviously enough of a thing in their system for him to have brought it up yeah i just wish i understood how it says it shows up f and then the last three digits and hours are the same isn't that crazy of all the numbers in the world yes that part is very exciting that you guys have the last three numbers and isn't it the last four everywhere my credit card that's why the last four is not they don't match yeah that's where it breaks down three do you want to tell us what they are to help people um hack your credit card and his mine is too no it's not yeah it is so are all mine is no okay hold on no american express cards do not all end in well i just because i've had different cards i have multiple mx cards and only one of them ends in we're not going to say the number but the same now as it turns out as you and jess that's nuts but maybe like maybe there's only a few endings okay while mx cards often end in similar digits like 100x or 200x due to how they are issued and replaced right it says many users report last four digits ending in one zero zero one one zero zero three one zero zero seven one zero zero eight one zero one three etc well don't say etc anyway wow so the three of us split at this restaurant anyway that was just very sad yeah yeah the thing i had wanted to remember to talk about continuing with my grossness so we got the pink eye which is not pink eye it's a sty yep um we've got a pig sty it's a pig sty uh the toenail just ground it gross so because why it was getting fluffy it won't grow out just only go up i don't want to talk about it so you brought it i know but not in detail i don't need you to be able to like picture exactly what's going on talking about gross stuff well i'm already hitting you with a third thing so i have this sty i have the toenails so i'm trying to just limit those two things okay so i can tell you that your style i love a certain t-shirt you know i wear the same brown t-shirt i wear the same brown t-shirt i wear the same brown t-shirt mostly all the time velvet uh-huh velvet by graham and something scram and crackers yep i've been noticing lately that there's a lot of um right out of the wash directly from the washer and dryer there's antiperspirant buildup in the armpit in the fabric really yes because i am caking on my antiperspirant then i'm wearing the shirt and then somehow so much is transferring that it's not coming out in the wash yeah and it affects the armpit it makes the armpit feel the armpits of the shirt not fully clean and weird exciting it's like got a film of antiperspirant over post-wash okay and so my response to that is like to order more shirts okay because it can't have this like gooey cakey armpit okay and so i guess two weeks ago a week and a half ago i'm like stop wearing deodorant stop wearing antiperspirant okay stop wearing deodorant uh-huh my expectation was like that's not gonna be a thing i might have more sweat but you're not gonna smell i don't smell uh-huh oh no monica i'm hoping this is a detox period where it's like my body's still expelling all of this clearly I'm putting a lot on because it's like ruining my shirts right but I'm I'm like okay it's just got to get all out it's probably it's it's trying to find homeostasis it's I've been kicking it on there for a decade yeah however long I have been pretty regularly been like oh my god my armpits smell oh within a day and I'm like what is going on I don't I don't smell I'm having a real crisis of conscience I understand that would really stress identity crisis but what you said one time you smelled one time no every day no no no sorry I'm talking about like years ago you were like you said you're like he's like my armpits smell weird you have a memory of this yeah oh um and you said it smelled like bacon oh I wish it smelled like bacon currently like oh is it classic bo classic bo classic and I'm like no I don't have I don't smell like that I've never smelled my breath doesn't smell yeah I got this whole story about myself my breath doesn't smell so your breath doesn't smell what I'm having to do thank you and you would agree I don't smell I have never smelt you smelling bad well guess what I smell fuck I know so now I'm having to unless I want to shower every single day which I don't love doing so now I've been showering every day yeah but I'm also washing my armpits out like after I work out in the sink upstairs I'm constantly like washing with a bar of soap in a sink using soap well what else can you use to get rid of water I don't know if that's gonna deal with it okay anyways this is all like I've started a journey and I hope to report in like a month everything's leveled out and my body's back to like a natural state but I'm not I've not liked this at all what's going on okay well I haven't smelt it I'll have another theory though okay because there have been periods where I didn't and I don't remember smelling didn't wear antiperspirant and already over it and um and it would be fine for days and um my one fear is that I take this creatine okay it's a powder and a scooper and it's mixed with some other good thing I'm supposed to have okay and so what I noticed I don't know I at some point I noticed every time I open up the thing I finally said out loud because Kristen takes it too I go hey do you think the creatine I didn't even get the full sentence out and she said BO oh no and I'm like yes so I use this powder that has a light smell of BO in it and then her father smells like it even when you open it we'll go inside after this and I'll let you huff it okay um well you haven't huffed it yet you don't need to get rid of it I'm nervous I'll be able to smell maybe maybe that's why I haven't smelled you because my nose is all clogged that could be it so okay Kristen's father and shout out to Tom Bell I've never met a man who researches things more than my father-in-law because he's in the news yeah I think that's why but like if this guy's gonna buy a tv set he's gonna read about every single tv set yes and every review and he likes to do this too Andy Rosen okay yeah it's a personality it is so her father's been getting into the news he's been into weight training which I love it is adorable we have more stuff to talk about yeah and um so he wanted to start using creatine he found out that that's good if you're lifting weight it's good for you guys I'm on it so he he before he buys it yeah he's like what kind do you use and we're like we use this brand and then like a couple days later he said I'm thinking about buying your brain like he hasn't pulled the trigger on it like but I'm raining a lot that it smells like bo stop I'm like oh it's definitely how did you how did you you went and researched this thing that far that you went on a message towards where people are starting to talk about that it smells like bo so he already knew and we were like at the time we were like yeah it does have a little smell like that but but it has not made us smell but it has so I guess the move would be for me to stop taking that replace it with a different one for a while I gotta be on it and see if that's it because maybe that's what's going on is I'm taking this thing that already smells like bo when I take it I can't believe oh that's how much I want premium health no you can take another brand I think it's this thing it's I know well it's not just pure creatine it's this other thing I need mbm it's got some acronym okay but I think maybe that's the culprit because I've had a lot of different creatines and none of them ever smelled like anything exactly literally and it tastes like nothing it's not even a thing I don't think it's placebo but it works yeah yeah I'm on it and I don't uh smell like bo and I don't use deodorant you do not I have not used deodorant in like 10 years or like 15 maybe 12 now I know a lot of people quitting any perspirant out of the fear of the aluminum which I do think was just recently debunked doesn't matter but you're not you're not even I don't use anything you put anything in there no perfume oh the toilette no oh wow and I don't I do not I've never smelled I don't smell no no never smelled you either yeah and Rob doesn't smell we all got lucky but Rob do you use deodorant I do yeah I think you put three co-workers together in a small room we've hit the lottery oh yeah one person's gonna smell sure yeah for sure I agree um no one smells here we're so lucky because it's impossible to address we've gone over this I know hey Rob I gotta talk to you um you gotta you gotta wash your armpits better or something like how do you bring it up we had we had a nanny she it was perfume though was too strong that's easier yeah Natalie talked to her oh great Natalie's top right does she handle all that stuff for you Rob all the confrontations yeah yeah she likes it I'm surprised I've never had to negotiate with with Natalie for your wage yeah oh you're right you're you're you're you're dropping you're dropping out how was your event last night it was good I was invited to an event um that was dream event for you it was exciting I got I got to go to a preview of some clothing that was very they all know what one it is I don't want to know I know you're not gonna say it you signed an NDA I can't talk how was the event what was the thing it was it was a fashion show it was a winter preview well it wasn't a fashion it was just like fall preview I was from winter I was invited to see a winter preview we're just leaving this is what I know this is how fashion works um um I was invited to see a winter preview of clothing uh that is not available yet obviously uh off the runway if you will and it was it was very exciting to get eyes and I get to decide if I wanted any of the items ah did anything tickle your fancy yeah of course of course of course there were some items that tickled did you make any purchases um no because so they're not available yet oh I thought you said you were gonna maybe have access well yeah so it is like so I I can say like I want that okay you're flagging it I want that so like put one you know they're gonna like put one aside make sure they have my size you know make me one um it's a pre-order kind of kind of yes yes uh but uh were there any celebrities there no not while I was there oh not while I was there it's like you know you come in there were different slots no they're not slots there's it was two days yesterday and today and it's a chunk of time are you going back today no I already saw what I already saw I already did it and then I did make a purchase of just the clothes that are available while I was there okay yeah they're gonna get you on the front end of the back I needed something to walk out with they got me I almost bought something for way too much money teeny tiny clutch clutch purse it was it holds like it's like a card case basically for one credit card yeah gold had diamonds on it it was vintage it was and it was engraved like from way back when meredith was the name someone wore it you know on on the runway they wore it with their with this dress he pointed out the dress and they wore it and I was like fuck I want I wanted it what was the price tag on I didn't get it okay how much do you think golds and diamonds yeah and a one ruby thirteen thousand dollars more more I didn't get it I know congratulations I'm doing so good not getting good but it's not but I'm not see this is the problem it's like I should just get that instead of ultimately I buy a bunch of things I totally disagree you're doing it right because you have the illusion that that's gonna say she I know you're right it's not I know you're right so in fact if anything you should just buy even cheaper stuff and more often and just yeah cheaper and big and just um fill yourself with items in your house until you're like the kid in a shell silverstein poem the garb so far my house is like it's it's still clean and clean and clean and clutter free it's kind of free but you're gonna do your best to change I'm not you're gonna have seven or nine armoires even in that big house you're gonna find out how to I'm not okay the whole point of my house is I only have one armoire well you You have a huge closet now. Exactly. The armoire doesn't hold clothes anymore. Okay. Weed. Weed? Yeah, so you keep all your edibles and your vapes. No, it's in my water closet, actually. Oh, your turlet. Yeah. So I keep towels in there. I keep toilet paper in there. Feminine products? Your spankies? Are they folded up in there? No, they're in my closet. Okay. And they're not spankies. You're trying to say nixies. Nixies. I thought it was nixies. Good eye, nixies. But mine are, um, mine are. Good eye, nixies. Thinks. Thinks? Yeah. For the thinking lady? Yeah, but it's with an X, you know? Oh. You gotta have an X in women's underwear. I know, it's weird. It is interesting. It is really weird. Okay, speaking of shopping, so I had a West Side Day last week. Okay. I feel hot all of a sudden. Oh, great. Well, let's get it. You know, I always like to get it cold in here. Yeah. I had a West Side Day. I went to Venice. Okay. Ooh. I know. Yeah. Very far away from where we live. Yeah, an hour and a half. So it was like a real adventure I decided to do. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I went to Abbot Kinney, very famous, popular street in Venice where there's a lot of, um, stores. Yeah. And foodies and things like that. And, um, I did not enjoy myself. A little punchline. In what way? I, I. Like, what am I doing out here? The West Side is not for me. It's really just, like, what I took from it. I felt grateful that I lived on the East Side of Los Angeles. Mm-hmm. We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundeo or for Glipron. Foundeo is a once-daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Foundeo should not be used with other GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Foundeo is safe and effective for use in children. Don't take Foundeo if you're allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop and call your doctor. Call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills, and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. Taking Foundeo with an insulin or sulfonylurea may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems. Once-daily Foundeo is available by prescription only in 0.8 milligram, 2.5 milligram, 5.5 milligram, 9 milligram, 14.5 milligram, and 17.2 milligram tablets. Learn more at foundeo.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundeo. What things were irking you or not to your liking? So many people walking, but I like that. Like, I like in New York so many people walking, so it can't be that. It was hard for me to put. I couldn't put my finger on what was going on with me. I think also so many people walking with their dogs. Nobody having any, like, awareness of other people. Oh, it's a dog. Here we go. It's the dog thing. No. Well, it was part of it. I saw a dog eat somebody's pizza. Okay, well. Out of their hand, or they had discarded it on the ground? No. Like, they were sitting outside eating their pizza at a restaurant. Yes. Oh, my goodness. And ate a stranger's pizza. And, again, I'm not blaming the dog. I blame the owner who was like, oh, oh, sorry. It's like, oh, sorry is your reaction? That dog ate somebody's pizza. And he was like, oh, it's okay. Like, you could tell he hated it. The guy with the pizza, obviously. Then he's like, he's stuck with, okay, now do I eat the rest of this pizza? It has dog slobber on it. Yeah. This is hard. No, there's that. You're not eating the rest of the pizza. The dog. The owner has to go get you a new piece of pizza. Exactly. That wasn't offered. If you stick around longer, you would have seen it. No, I walked away. But he was walking away. Like, he was like, oh, sorry. Oh, he was just on a walk. He wasn't a fellow diner? No. Oh, that's insane. Unless the guy was penniless. Was he penniless? No. He's walking his dog on the street. His dog jumps up, eats somebody's pizza, and he's like, sorry. This is one of these examples of how I constantly was seeing men yell at women in public, and I'd have to defend them. Yeah. Because my worldview is that, and I somehow saw that all the time. Like, I would never see a dog leap up and eat a piece of pizza. No, but you're going to, of course, of course you saw that, is my point. I didn't manifest it. It just happened in front of me. But it confirmed what you think about dogs. Is there unruly? Not what I think about dogs. Well, first of all, yeah, dogs love pizza, of course, you know? Well, everyone does. Yeah, I want pizza right now. I'm having an issue. What's your issue? I don't know. I'm like, so, I'm like, all of a sudden. I'm sweating. Let's turn the air up. Let's make it cold in here. But I don't know if it's internal. Oh, yeah, this is set to so hot. Okay. Oh, my God. Are we catching my first hot flash? No, it's hot in here. Okay. You're in a sweater. Man, I'm sick. You want to give it to yourself a second? Let's let it cool down for a second. Remember when you were addicted to Halls? Yeah. You didn't know me then. I know, but you just talk about it. Yeah. I'm currently addicted to Halls. They're addictive. I had four while we were sitting there. I want one now that you say. You know what? At my height, I was getting the family pack every day. I know. Every day, like going to get a pack of cigarettes. I know. I'm eating too many Halls. I want one now. I wonder if I have any. Do you have any in your satchel? I have one. Now, is it bad for you, Halls? It gave me farts because I had so many of them, and I think the binding agent. I always think it's a binding agent, even though I don't even know what that means. I believe all those mint-type things have binding agents. Menthol, don't they? Well, the menthols. Menthol is the thing I'm addicted to. I know. But to keep all the ingredients together, they need a binding agent. Is menthol bad for you? No. Okay, great. No, yeah. Okay. Smoking menthol cigarettes is bad for you. That's the cigarette that's bad, though, right? That's right. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And inhaling menthol on fire is probably not great. But no, menthol's great for you. Okay. Yeah, Halls Mentholiptus. Vicks Vicks Baker baby baby rub. Okay. Well, I love them. I got to recommend a show and I know you're not going to try it cause it's a reality TV show, but we like it so much. I'm not, I'm so sorry. I'm not done talking. Oh, okay. I'm so sorry. Can you take a long break? And I know because something's going on with my body. It's like, I don't, I feel really strange. Um, are you, um, maybe my fever is breaking or something. Maybe I've had a fever and it's breaking. Let's hope that's what it is. Yeah. You're sweating. Yeah, I'm sweating. I feel really weird. Now I'm worried. I smell, I might've given it to you. Oh my God. Just by power of, uh, suggestion. I mean, I do feel like I kind of smell all of a sudden, but I think it's the sweat mixing with this cashmere. Okay. So you think the cashmere smells, not you? Sometimes certain, um, sweaters, if, if there's sweat on them. It does. It does. It wakes up some dormant thing. I know. I hate it. I hate it. Okay. So I'm in Venice. A dog ate someone's pizza and I'm like, this place is wild, you know? And, um, then I go into the store and I'll say what it is. Cause I'm going to be nice. I went in, um, I guess they're, they're known for having like vintage Levi's. Okay. When I walk in, I'm the only one in the store. There was vintage Levi's. There was vintage Levi's on the left. And then there's other clothes. So I like, I kind of go and I like look at the vent, like for a second, I'm like kind of looking at the jeans, but then I meandered and, um, the woman working at the store ignored me at first, but then she was like, let me know if you need anything. And I was like, okay, great. And then I was looking at some vintage shirts. Then some more people start coming in. She starts addressing these other people. Great. I'm still looking around. One lady goes up to her and it's like, dark, a darker wash than the one she's wearing. So they go over to the vintage jeans. They're looking. I then go over to the vintage jeans and I'm looking and she goes, honey, if you, if you want to look at these, I'm going to need to help you. That's the worker there. Okay. And I was like, that's crazy. Yeah. You're not allowed to look at the jeans without supervision. Exactly. That would have been my exact sentence. I know you can't look at the jeans without supervision is the policy here. I know that would have been great to start with a question. Questions are the meet a question with the question. Yeah. They're, they're, they're, they're a judo move. Make them explain what they just said. What did you just say? She said, because, and then she made like, she said something about sizes, but she just kind of threw it out. Like she just was like, because like sizes or something when really she just didn't want me messing with the jeans when she was over there. It was just tight. She was afraid you were going to get them out of order. Maybe, but like, sorry, bitch. Do you want your clothes? I don't mean to, I just didn't mean to say that. Okay. You're going to take that back. Let's rewind. Sorry, lady. Like, you know, it was just Pretty Woman. It was, like, big mistake huge. Like, I would have bought, don't mistake me for someone who's not going to buy these items. But, okay, here's where I'm going to. I know, now you want to push back because you think I'm. What am I going to say? You think I'm, like, projecting onto her that I'm not worth the money or I know what you're saying. I'm sweating so much. I know. I do think you have that story. Like, I do think you're on high alert for that. I wasn't. But if you had asked her, can I go look at a pair of jeans like this in darker before anyone got in there? I don't think in any world she wouldn't have taken you over there and helped you. Oh, yeah. The one woman said, I'd like to see this in darker. So you didn't initiate that. The other woman didn't. And then I do think it's quite possible that if she was helping you and the other woman came up and started rifling through that she might have said, honey, hey, you got to be with me. I think all that's quite probable. Well, I'm not arguing she doesn't have a shitty bedside manner. But I. But your conclusion that it was unique to you because of who you are, that's the part I want to push back on. No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. But I am saying she missed out on a sale. Great. But you also didn't initiate the jeans thing with her. It doesn't matter. She didn't. When I was over there alone. Yeah. She didn't say, hey, if you're going to look at the vintage jeans, I got to come help. Great. And I understand that point of view. But what's really funny is what keeps me from shopping. I just. I told you, I had to kill an hour and a half at the Americana when my phone was being fixed. Yeah. And what I fucking hate is like, I want to be able to walk around the store and not talk to someone every 30 seconds. So it's like every. I was one of the crews from the button ups to the sweaters. But every five feet. Excuse me, sir. Can I help you find something? Oh, no, I'm just browsing. And then you're like, well, why are you in here? You're not shopping. You know, so I have the opposite thing as you. And that woman that works there has got to try to assess. Are you the me type or Monica type? Because you. You want them to come over and go, how can I help you? No, this is. I think you're misunderstanding. OK. I did not want her help. OK. I did not think I needed her help. So for her to say, if you're going to look at this, I have to help you. I was like that. That's just kind of a very bizarre policy of the store or her own personal laziness about having to restock or reorganize. It was just a mix of weird things. It was like. I was like, if that's really the policy, why didn't you tell me that earlier when I was kind of looking at them? Oh, I don't know. So are you making this policy up right now because you. Because I don't think the pretty woman thing's ever going to happen to you. You are very well put together and you have expensive clothes on all the time. You wear jewelry. So that part, I think I don't think that happens. I don't know. But I, I left, you know. OK, sure. I left. I just said. Oh, OK. And then I left because also I'm like, well, how are you going to help? Well, if you went back in like sunglasses and a disguise because you're like, fuck, I do need those pants. I know. I want to make a point. I was. I wanted to punish her. But now I do need to get those pants. I know. And you came back in sunglasses and a scarf. And you're like, pardon me. How do you say pantalones? Oh, my God. Azules. Yeah, I could have done that. Also, though, I was like, wait a minute. If this is the system where if you have to, like, get help for the jeans, you want me to just stand here and wait until you're done doing this whole thing with this other lady? Yeah, that's the problem with these boutique. That's why you got to go into Target. No. You got to dial. No. No real good store is doing this. Like, this is not this is not normal. So but mainly I was very and I don't I didn't expect. I didn't expect this from myself. OK. I did not like being called honey. Oh, OK. And I. You're from the South. I mean, you should. That's that's pretty standard. Maybe that's why. Yeah. Because it often it is a very condescending thing to say to someone in the South a little bit. It could go either way. Obviously, it can be used in a sweet way. Yeah. But it is often used in a condescending way. Well, especially if it's like honey. That honey is pretty clear. Like honey. Also, I'm like, I'm 38. Honey. I'm not your honey. This is a huge off topic, but it just occurred to me if you were trying to speak French. I was thinking if I saw you, I met you and you were speaking French. And I hope this doesn't offend Indians or Moroccans. What? But I think if you were speaking French, you could really pass for Moroccan. Oh, all right. Yeah. Or Algerian, French Algiers. Yeah. Yeah. Just think about playing one in a movie. Hire me, I guess. No, no. I don't do accents. So, no. What if they're French? I can't do a French accent. You could with some work. No, that would stress me out so much. You think you're incapable of learning a French accent? Okay. I'm very bad at accents. Okay. I'm good at them, but I can't do most of them anymore. You can do French. I know, but that's. You're not interested. Maybe I will. Okay, nice. So, anyway, I didn't realize. I didn't realize that I find that now that I'm 38, if you call me honey, and you're not my lover or my partner or something, or. Welcome, honey. I hear it all the time now when I'm in Tennessee, and often it's so sweet. I love it. No, you can tell when it's sweet. Yeah, yeah. So, I'm just saying it's not the word. So, I do think you'd be fine being called honey even at 38 if it was the 55-year-old woman. That greets me at the gas station by my house. Yeah. Yeah. That's not what it was. Yeah. And then I remember there's a Taylor Swift song called Honey on the new album, so I listened to it after. Oh, God. I felt seen. Okay, great. She doesn't like it either? Uh-huh. Okay. Well, she says, like, he can call, Travis. Okay, let's call it what it is. Can call her honey. And that's it? Well, like, normally honey in the song, like, she's saying this, what I'm saying, but hers is translating better. So, normally when people call her honey or baby or some other things, like, it's condescending and it's when this is happening and it's when someone's, like, belittling her, but he can call her honey if he wants. Okay, good. I bet he does. Frequently. I think he does. Yeah. Honey's cute. You use honey a lot with Kristen. We use hun, honey. I think it's a nice pet name. Okay. I would like to be called that. Okay. But be careful. Be careful. Oh, yeah. Not if you're trying to condescend me. Yeah, just be careful. It's a triggering word for you, so you got to make sure you. Well, if you love me, you can do it. Yeah, what? What? Tell me. Nothing. I just think. We all have these things that, like, we don't want to be called. I have my list. You have your list. And I'm just struck when it's not me who's experiencing the emotions of it, how much agency you're giving away by being affected. It's just, like, you validate this person by carrying what they called you. And you give the way a power. You give them a power over you that they don't deserve. I guess. You know, like, the most self-actualized version of oneself is just, like, yeah, I can hear it in you, and I can just think, like, Monica, how could you care if this person called you anything? You're so above that kind of insult. Yeah, but, like, this is what me and you. Like, you're bigger than that. Me and you argue about this a lot. Mm-hmm. Making you feel a certain way versus I feel a certain way. No, that's not what I was going to say. Oh, I thought that was going to be the one. No. Like, I feel very. I'm like, we do not live in. On islands. People affect one another. And I am not, like, trying to deny that reality. And yes, you can be self-actualized. You can understand. Well, you have agency. So you can be affected if you allow yourself to be effective. That's what I'm saying. I know, but I disagree. I think we live in a. For you, it feels impossible currently. Well, not just for me. Well, because you're saying it can't be done. For everyone in life, humans, humans affect other humans. Like, I don't think you can. By the way, I don't think you should walk through life without feeling things from other people, good and bad. Well, I do because. Because, again, let's assume the worst about this person. Let's go all the way with this worker. Well, no, she's not bad. But let's just do it. Let's say that she is racist and she knows you have money and she's jealous and she thinks you're a piece of shit that's inferior because you're brown. Okay. And she's a terrible person. Okay, we get it. And she was trying to hurt you. Think about where that's coming from. That's such an obvious bag of insecurity that that person has. Yeah. That they're going to now try to. To infect you with. Right. And you're going to let them. That's my pride. Like, you're going to let that person with their insecurities change your day? You're going to get infected by it and let it be contagious? I think a strong, actualized version of you is like, what that gal's experience is that's making her behave that way has nothing to do with me. Her opinion of me means nothing. And it has no effect on me. Someone else can behave like a knucklehead. but you can't internalize those feelings of, I'm less than and I'm not worthy of being here. That's like, that's your department. Sure, that's fine. But that doesn't mean, even if you're able to say like, well, that's that person's shit. It doesn't mean it doesn't have to have an impact on you. It doesn't mean it won't hurt your feelings to be around someone who has just insulted you. Like that is a normal reaction as a person. You don't have to, it shouldn't ruin your life, ruin your whole day. It, you know, it doesn't, you don't need to go that far, but I definitely think it's okay to be affected by the way people treat you. Again, do I think it needs to affect you to the extreme where it's starting to change your behavior or the way you look at the world? No, that's bad. But to be like, ow, that's okay. I just think you're giving that person way more power than they deserve because they already demonstrated that they're a knucklehead. Yeah. It's like the, you know, again, guy with a parrot on his shoulder at 7-Eleven, he says something to you, you just immediately write it off. It means nothing. What does that, what does this guy know about anything? He's standing in front of 7-Eleven with a parrot on his shoulder. That's so intellectual though, which I like, I understand that's where you're coming from. You're saying it's unrealistic, not impossible. Exactly. Because I'm only debating you if you're saying it's impossible. I agree with you that it's hard. I don't think it's impossible and I think it's circumstantial, but it is, I mean, yeah, I just live in reality where like, look, if I'm walking down the street and someone yells something at me and they have a parrot on their shoulder, no, I'm not going to think what they, like they're a valid, I should be thinking about how to change my life. Or what they said about you is relevant. But it would still probably hurt all of, like, I would just be like, oh, ah, like being yelled at or told something bad doesn't feel good, even if it's like crazy. It does, again, that doesn't mean I keep walking and I'm like, oh man, what if he's right? Like, what if I am a stupid bitch? Like, it's just like, ah, like that doesn't feel good to receive bad energy from people. As a thought experiment, just imagine he yells, you're too tall. Right. Truly, does that statement. You're too tall. I know, but that's objective. But can we walk through that? Just as an experiment? What do you think your actual reaction would be if a guy yelled at you? You're too tall. I would just be like, he's not talking to me. I would be confused. Right, or who cares what that guy said? No, I would laugh. It's nonsense. Yeah, I would just be like, oh, this guy's on drugs. It's nonsense what the guy said. I know, but like, that is objective. But. Other things aren't. You being ugly, you being like, these aren't, these are subjective things. They are. And what determines whether or not you're vulnerable to them is what your own self-esteem, what your own self-esteem is. That's exactly what defines your susceptibility and vulnerability. I don't think that's always right. I don't. Like, I, I know I have enough money to buy stuff in that store. But you have some fear that people don't think you have money. No, I don't care about that. Okay. People don't need to think I have money. That's like not important to me at all. People need to not think like, I'm irrelevant. You don't belong there. I'm irrelevant or exactly, or I don't belong. All right, great. Well, not belong. But you're using the pretty woman analogy for a reason. Well, that was just like easy to say. Yeah, no, but it makes total sense. And we all know what that means. Yeah, big mistake here. And that's what it was. It was a pretty woman experience. Well, it wasn't a pretty woman experience so much as I was, look, I really, I was like, I mean, we went off on such a tangent. All I was, I wrote down a lady working at a store called me honey. And I didn't like it. Yeah, I hear you. And that doesn't mean I think I'm a little girl. Like, I know I'm not. I'm aspiring in life to not let anyone have that control over my emotions because I don't enjoy the emotion of being triggered. Right. I don't have that. Aspiration. I don't have that aspiration to like not feel things from other people. I definitely have an aspiration to like, not let something like take me down or like, you know, have, a major impact on my mood. But yeah, like I'm fine having interactions in the world that are not always pleasant. Yeah. I don't like feeling annoyed and I feel annoyed often with people. Yeah. And I'm happier when I'm not feeling annoyed. Yeah. Okay. Let's do some facts. Okay. Okay, Alvin. What are all the Nobel prizes? Yeah. Okay. Well, I was so embarrassed when you pointed out I used that wrong. I think a lot of people think that. Okay. Physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, literature, peace, economic sciences. So five of them are presented in Stockholm, Sweden, and the Peace Prize is awarded in Oslo, Norway. Interesting. Yeah. Peace gets the most heat, right? That's the one we hear about the most. Okay. I was going to ask you like, which one would you. Physics. That's what you think is the best or what you would want? Well, I just think it's like the most. The most maybe substantive in. Medicine? Yeah, that's pretty good. I don't know. I just think like, had someone not cracked the DNA code versus Obama, I think one is more. perpetuates mankind more. And I love Obama. I know, but that's actually. I don't mean him specifically, but that's an interesting debate. Like, what progresses overall? Like, Obama was a great president, and I don't know how we would quantify how many lives he saved, but I don't. He did not save as many lives as vaccines or. Right. antibiotics. Like, those things are like quantifiably hundreds of millions of lives have been saved, or this invention allows us to travel into space, versus like, you were a really good guy that encouraged people to be good and better. But that's huge. It's powerful. It's powerful. It's. In some ways. I'd put Martin Luther in the camp, Luther King, yes. of the physicists. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there are people who revolutionize the way the rest of the world is going to think about things for the rest of time. Mm-hmm. And that is. It's powerful. very powerful. I guess if I was just picking between I have to live with. Oh, like, on planet Earth, either there was no Louis Pasteur or no Obama. Well, ooh. I know. We got to ask the hard questions on here, or we're not. We're not doing our job. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that at all. I do not want to do that. I mean, look, I'm more. I'm most likely to get a piece or a literature prize of this. Those are my actually only even remote options. Yeah, that you could even be a contestant. Exactly. Yeah. So. So you're weighting those higher? Yeah. Okay, yeah. It's funny. I go the opposite way in general. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I generally respect things a lot more that I can't do. Yeah. Which maybe is some kind of arrogance. I don't know, but. No, it'd be arrogant the other way. It's like if I can't do it, it must be really impressive. Like, you can see where that's kind of arrogant. I see, I see, I see. Well, both ways. Like, yeah, I can't do this abstract calculus to figure out how fast Alpha Centauri's moving towards us. So that's really. That person must be so special. I guess I'm glad we have all. Me too. Because they're all extremely important. Did you hear about Crater Carroll speaking of space? The moon? Yeah, and. What's going on with Crater Carroll? I just saw there was a rock moving through the moon. That was fascinating, the footage of that. Well, there was like a mark on the moon. Okay. You know, they got the. Skidmark? No. You're going to be upset you said that after you hear about this, okay? Okay, okay, okay. Because they go, you know, they go on that. What is it? Artemis? Artemis, thank you. Okay, yes. And then they see this, and the astronaut asked if they could name it Carroll after his. Deceased wife. Oh, no, yeah, I'm really upset I said that, yeah. That's great. What is it? Do we know what it is? It's a crater, I think. Okay. I've been calling it Crater Carroll, so I hope it's a crater. They've named, I see, Einstein? Mm-hmm. Einstein, Dalton, and Carroll. I wonder what Dalton that is. And the videos, like, going around of him, like, he's up there, and he said, we want to name it Carroll. The one thing from this Artemis thing that I believe so certainly, one of the astronauts, you know, they went around the dark side of the moon, which is crazy. Do you think they listened? They should have. Yeah. That would have been cool. They couldn't, there's no radio communication or anything, so they're just kind of like, who knows what's happening on the other side, right? Mm-hmm. But I think when they came around it, or, I don't know the timing of it, but the point is one of the astronauts looked at Earth, and he was hit by this reality that we should all feel, I wish we could all feel. It's like, you little monkeys are on this, on this fucking rock in the middle of an abyss. I know. And it's, you guys are all you have. I know. And the fact that you're on this floating thing, fighting each other. I know. Is such a tragedy. It is, it is. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, I'm not even sure what, exactly how he said it. Okay, okay. But I know that was the thrust of what he was saying, which I think about often. It's just like, if you're an alien hovering above Earth. Yeah, I know. Like, what's going on? There's a bunch of people down there. I know. They're lucky enough to be this perfect distance, 93 million miles from the sun, where they can have water and oxygen, and they live. Yeah. They live and they're spending that. I know. Coming up with all these fake differences between each other. You know what we all have in common? We're on a fucking rock floating through. Exactly. I'm with you. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. But you also, you would say, well, evolution, we're animals, and animals, status, and everyone hates in the fights. Well, I was thinking that. I did. I actually, I forced myself to counter his point of view. And I was saying, what's interesting is you don't look, he's not looking at the earth, seeing that a lion is fighting another lion in order to get access to the female, and going like, what a tragedy. The lion is spending his time on this floating, you know. So then I did, I was like, well, that's relevant too. Sure. But also it's not. It's like, we have brains that can. Yeah, we should be able to. Oh, did you figure? We will always choose earth. We will always choose each other. That's sweet. They're hugging up there. These astronauts are so sweet, naming the crater Carol and doing this. Oh, my God. Oh, wow. Can you see? Is that the northern lights over the upper right tip of the. Oh, wow. Oh, that's cool. Earth is so, like, I don't. It's a miracle. I, like, don't believe in it. I don't either. I don't either. Alvin. Oh, he was making a point about rules and laws and how sometimes you don't have to make laws because, like, people just automatically don't do a thing because it's so repugnant. Oh, uh-huh. Like. Carry feces in their hand on the street. No, he didn't say that. But he said eating worms. But then I was like, I didn't want to say, but, like, people eat worms. Sure. I think he's probably talking about here, but yeah. I know, but, like, a lot of cultures eat worms. Okay. They do. They really do. But he was talking about here horse meat's illegal. Right. Because here we think it's crazy. But a lot of places they eat horse meat. And then there are some things that are just, we don't need a law against it. Exactly. Because here. No, no one's eating worms. And so. But some people. The expectation is they won't be in your food. Right. I guess. And you don't have to, you don't have to legislate against that. That's true. Yeah. But, uh, people eat worms all the time. I mean, some people eat poop, probably. No. Yes. I mean, there's cannibals, Monica. We have. That's different than eating worms. Like. Okay, great. Let's use cannibalism. Okay. There are. We have evidence of certain groups being cannibals. It is illegal. Here. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but not there. Right. But we don't have a law that says you, I don't think there's a law anywhere on any books that says you can't serve humans in a restaurant. I don't think that law exists. Huh? Well, not in a restaurant, but cannibalism is a law. There's a law against cannibalism. Remember that guy had to go to jail. In France. I don't know if that, I mean, why would there be a law? Because it would imply already murder. So it's like you've already crossed. Well, not necessarily. Like, okay, what is. You're eating, you're at the morgue. Yeah. That's what he was. He was working at a lab. Or what if you just cut off a bunch, like cut off some of your arm and I ate it. There's been these cases. There's been consensual where people eat each other. Like they was, someone wants to get their part of their body eaten. Someone on the internet wants to eat someone's body. So in the U S there are no laws that explicitly prohibit cannibalism per se. Wow. Because again, you don't. Cause you just feel like it's not happening. But it is happening. But in Papua New Guinea where it had been a thing. For certain tribes, they might need to put that. They would have to decide to legislate against that. It says most states have enacted laws that make it effectively impossible to legally obtain and consume human body matter though. Okay. Well. I'm so glad that's not my kink. Eating humans. Yeah. Yeah. Being attracted to. You would never be satiated. It's like if your thing, your kink is this thing you can't do, you would never be satiated in life. Yeah. But also just. Yeah. Can you own pigs? Can you own pigs in California as pets? Yes, you can own pet pigs in California, but it's highly regulated at the local level rather than state level. It is often considered livestock, not pets. Generally only miniature breeds like pot-bellied pigs are allowed, often subject to weight limits under 120 pounds and strict city specific zoning ordinances. Thank God Clooney's not a fugitive from law. Cause I think he had a pot-bellied pig famously. Oh wow. Okay. We can't afford to have him as a criminal, but she has a farm. Exactly. So livestock. She could own anything probably. You mentioned Alan Turing. That was sad. That was very sad. So sad. But that's a great movie. Imitation Game. Yeah. I should rewatch it. It's a great movie with Benedict Cumberbatch. I think that was his breakout, right? Yeah. He was already like simmering, but then it was like, then it was like sayonara, suck ass. I love him. Um, oh, when did Robert at, oh, I think he, okay. I may, may have misheard this. I, I thought he said Jonathan Edwards, um, is the doctor who got his Nobel prize in, um, in vitro. It's Robert Edwards, which he may have said, and maybe I misheard, but he won it in 2010. Okay. Physiology or medicine. Okay. So is IVF illegal in Germany? This is for single women. It's legal and available in Germany, but it's strictly wrong. regulated by the Embryo Protection Act, it is primarily accessible to married heterosexual couples with egg donation and surrogacy strictly prohibited. Strictly prohibited? Could you always bet on horses in the United States? No, it is not. Only if you ate them afterwards. Exactly. No, it has not always been possible or legal to bet on horses throughout the entire United States. Has a long history. Faced significant legal, social, and regional restrictions over time. There's all kinds of restrictions. Okay. In the early 20th century, anti-gambling sentiment led almost all states to ban bookmaking, which nearly eliminated horse racing. So I guess that's not specific to horse racing. Right. Okay. All right, then. Yes, Mark Twain is credited with saying giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I've done it a thousand times. He's credited. Okay, go ahead. That's it. That's everything. Well, I do applaud Alvin's work with these kidney donations. I know. That was wild, actually. Should I give my kidney to someone? That's up to you. You don't want to advise? You love to advise Rick Glassman. This is just where I'm like, I'm shamefully selfish. Yeah, because what if I need it? I want both. You know, I like a backup. Yeah. I probably need a backup since I had kidney stones. Oh, boy. They probably wouldn't even, maybe they wouldn't let me. Damn. Yeah. Well, that would be the best case scenario. You tried and you couldn't. Yeah, good screen. That was like I tried to give, what did I try to give? Plasma? I tried to give sperm in college. Oh, yeah, and you weren't allowed. But that's not, you'd be fine doing that. Yeah. And you were getting, you would be paid. Well, that was the goal. Yeah, I was in college and I needed some money. But they wouldn't accept it. That's a terrible sperm. What? Because it had low mobility? No, you need to have, or at least they told me, you need to have an inordinately high sperm count. Oh. And I did not have a high sperm count. Interesting. I'd like to think I had an average sperm count. They didn't specifically say that. They said you have a low sperm. I mean. It wasn't high enough. You didn't have any problems getting pregnant. But I've only, I've only tried twice. Yeah, exactly. And we have two kids. So it works out. Yeah, yeah. All right. Bye. Love you. Love you. Bye.