Alison Wood Brooks: The Science Behind Great Conversations

Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today, I'm joined by Alison Wood Brooks, Harvard Business School professor and one of the world's leading experts on the science of conversation. In her new book Talk, the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being ourselves, Alison shares the research back tools that can help anyone build deeper relationships, navigate difficult conversations, and connect more meaningfully with others. Alison Wood Brooks, welcome to On Purpose. Hey, Jay, thank you so much for having me. It's so great to have you here. It's almost nerve-wracking to have a conversation with a professional conversationalist, research and communication expert. Don't be, don't be. But you've made me feel so at ease ever since you walked into the room. So I feel good. I'm more than most understand how hard conversation is, and I'm in such awe of everything that you do here. And I know that none of us can be perfect at it. So let's share that anxiety. Let's dive in. If someone wants to feel more confident when they communicate, what's the number one habit they should stop doing today? I think so many of the problems and mistakes and anxiety that comes in conversation is an over-focus on yourself. And even anxiety as an emotion makes us over-focus on ourselves, right? It kind of narrows our aperture and we're like, oh God, here's all the things that could go wrong. And so if people want to feel more confident, if they can truly convince themselves, this isn't about me, this is about us, this is about the other person, push yourself sort of relentlessly to focus on your conversation partner, it's going to set you up to feel far less anxious and actually perform better in the conversation. It almost feels when we're having a conversation with someone that we have a camera pointer to us. And in our head, we're watching the live stream of every single facial expression, physical movement, hand gesture, and we're going, oh, that was cringe. Why did you say that? I don't do that again. Like the anxiety that we're feeling is almost because we have a version of ourselves playing back at ourselves rather than looking at the other person's eyes and the other person's face and the other person's body gestures and hand gestures. How do we get out of our heads because it feels like that tape of ourselves is playing 24/7. And that's why most of us, when we get introduced to someone, it was so funny, I was at a restaurant last night. And I always ask the waiting stuff, what their names are. And I always talk to them by their name, whichever restaurant I'm in. And at the end of my meal, I went down and I saw one of them and I said, "Hey, Katerina, can you show me where the restrooms are?" And she goes, "How did you remember my name?" And I was like, because it was that moment of, when I met her, I wasn't thinking about how I looked or who I was. I was thinking about her, I'd saw her face, I saw her name. And so talked to me about how do we get out of our heads when all of our anxiety is naturally making us focus on every tiny detail of our hand movement, what word we said or how cringe we are. The way life is designed is you're set up to have that hypervigilance about yourself. You have access to every move and experience in your own life, from your own perspective, but you only have a very limited access to other people's experiences and their perspective. You get little samples. Even people, we know really, really well. Even my identical twin sister, I don't know what happened to her this morning. I don't know if somebody cat called her on the street or she had gotten a fight with her kid or something, right? There's just no way to have the richness of information about other people that we do about ourselves. And I think in accumulation across your whole life that causes us to turn inward and be hypervigilant and hyper aware of ourselves. Psychologists call this egocentrism. But conversation requires that we sort of break out of that egocentrism and really push ourselves to focus on others. I love your example of asking the waitress what her name is at the very beginning. That's a very good example of a practice, of a habit, of a move that you can make part of your arsenal that is almost forcing yourself to focus on the other person. It's like, oh, I'm going to develop this habit. When I go to restaurants, I'm going to ask the server their name right at the beginning. I'm really going to listen to it. I'm going to say it over and over. And by the end, we're going to feel like we're friends. So there are many of these small practices that you can do that almost purposefully push yourself towards other people and away from yourself. What are the skills of you found that help people lower their anxiety in a conversation in that moment when there's this hypervigilance of themselves? What are the habits who will break through moments of you seeing where someone goes, oh, I actually can remove myself from that center point of a conversation. So two things. First off, anxiety comes from uncertainty. You don't know how things are going to land. You don't know how things are going to go. Conversation is a perfect storm for anxiety because every turn, you don't know what's going to happen next. You don't know what your partner is going to say. You don't know how they're going to respond to you. You don't even know what you're going to say to turn from now. So it really is a very understandable place to feel anxious. I'll give one example. One thing that seems to help people tremendously reduce their anxiety is to take some of that mental energy you're spending calculating all that uncertainty and offload it to before the conversation. So doing topic prep, and this is something we talk about a lot in the book, thinking ahead about what are my goals in this conversation? What are my partner's goals in this conversation? What do we want to get out of it? And what are some things that we should or could talk about when we're together? And when you push yourself to think even for like 10 seconds, even if we're on opposite sides of the room and we're walking to greet each other, and I think to myself, "Oh, what will day find really interesting to talk about?" Maybe it's one question that makes the conversation much less anxiety inducing for me and it makes the conversation better because you don't have to do that busy cognitive work, that creativity task during the chaos of conversation. This episode of on purpose is presented by Ultra Running. We all benefit from having a little more space so do our feet. That's why Ultra Running shoes feature ultra fit design, giving toes more room for comfort, balance, and strength. They're perfect for running, walking, or hiking, any pace, any level. They feel right from the first step. Go to ultra running.com/onpurpose and use code purpose 10 for 10% off. That's AL-TRA running.com/onpurpose. Stay out there when I'm about to go to an industry event or a networking event or an award show or something like that. I'm always thinking about, "What was something interesting I learned on the podcast this week?" Who's someone fascinating that I spoke to that it's left to mark on me? If something comes up in conversation and someone asks me, "Hey, what have you been up to?" I don't just say same old or I've been busy or I've been traveling. I'm able to say, "Oh my gosh, I sat down with Alison Wood Brooks the other day and I learned this really neat idea here's what it was," or, "I sat down with this athlete or this musician or whoever it was." I think a lot of us don't feel we're interesting. A lot of us don't feel like we have anything interesting going on that we may perceive our lives like that. Now, I think everyone is interesting and has something fascinating about them. You don't have to be on camera in a movie or doing incredible research to have something interesting to say, but we almost put that pressure on ourselves and I think a lot of us judge ourselves for not being intriguing people. What do we do with that feeling? What do we do about that in a conversation or as we're preparing to enter a conversation? I want to relieve that pressure for everyone. It makes so much sense that we put this pressure on ourselves to be interesting, to collect stories and tidbits and be ready to share them, but even that, that this pressure to be interesting is very self-focused. That's not the right instinct when you're in dialogue with another mind. If we can shed that pressure, we put on ourselves to be interesting and instead say, I'm going to be interested in the other person and I sincerely feel like I'm going to just dig through their mind and uncover all the things that they're thinking and feeling about these days. That is a really empowering mindset shift because you don't have to prove that you're interesting. I agree with you. I think all people are deeply interesting. It doesn't mean that you have to have these grand experiences, even just admitting uncertainty or admitting your feelings to other people, deeply interesting, but it does take some forethought, like you're saying. You are collecting things as you go through life. Who did I talk to this week? What podcast did I listen to? What show did I watch that really made me sit up and think or scared me or made me feel really bad about myself? Collect those little tidbits so that when the right moment presents itself in conversation, you're ready for it. I'm sure you have people all the time who say, "Listen, I just don't have time for that." I'm like rushing from thing to thing. I just about got out of bed this morning and had my morning coffee. and put on some decent clothes or whatever it was, right? Like, how does someone make time for that in a way that feels that they're not spending all their time preparing for something that they don't have time for? Oh my God, totally. I totally hear this. None of us have time to be sitting down and making a elaborate topic list for every conversation that we're going to have that's not quite the right way to think about it. It's more like I'm holding a butterfly net wherever you go. And as you are thinking ahead about who you're going to be seeing, you're catching your feelings, the little interesting things you see in the world collecting little stories in this butterfly net that you're carrying with you all the time. And you're ready to like pluck out the butterflies from the net at any moment when you see somebody. It's also truly not time consuming. So we spend so much time in our lives prepping in other ways. Imagine you're going on a date or going to a board meeting. You're going to think for at least a couple of minutes about what you're wearing, how what transportation you're using to get there, what you think the meeting should be about. What we don't spend time thinking about often is what you're going to talk about once you're there. So if you spend even a fraction, literally 30 seconds, thinking about what you could talk about once you're there and maybe do it at the same time that you're picking out your outfit, right? Do it at the same time you're brushing your teeth and putting on your makeup. It's going to make your interaction so much more valuable. It's so much more a significant part of that exchange. Yes. What you're going to say. I have to write them down, but it's because I have so many things going on in my life and too many children. So when interesting things happen to me, or honestly, it's less about interesting things happening to me and more like things that I want to remember that maybe are associated with the person I'm going to see next week. Like, oh, I just saw this show that I thought you'd really like. Or I talked to this person for you. I talked to this person on my podcast that really made me think of you, right? So it's less about what's interesting, what makes me interesting, and more what I'm associating with the people I'm going to talk to. That's really interesting. I really like that approach. That feels like a really helpful insight in going prepared with the other person as the focus. It has to be personalized, right? This is not just you collecting funny stories and then just launching them willy nilly. No, it's thinking, who are the people in my life? Who am I going to see, which is very predictable? And what have they been up to lately? What did we talk about the last time we were together? What have I been up to that they will find interesting and exciting? That's the personalized prep is just incredible. It's what makes relationships great. Can I ask you a question? You said that you often think about before you're going into a big meeting or to an awards show or to a big event. Do you think ahead about topics with your wife or friends, casual conversations? I would say so. Yeah, I would say so if I'm in a car, if I'm driving home, or if I'm driving to a meeting, absolutely. That's so good. I think a lot of people when they think about topic prep in general, they often focus on these sort of high stakes, obviously tricky conversations. And I think it could actually be even more effective in our everyday conversations with people that we really love. So I'm hearing you say that practicing even for low stakes conversations, everyday conversations actually helps us build our confidence so that when we walk into our high stakes conversation, you're already more prepared. You know what it feels like. Because really to feel more confident in our conversations, it's about what is the strength of that relationship. We feel nervous in conversation when we feel like things could go badly. And we feel that way when we haven't built trust yet, when we don't feel like we know each other well enough yet to make mistakes in front of each other to do silly, embarrassing things. So the more you can do feel good and do loving things in these everyday conversations, the less anxious you're going to feel even for the high stakes ones. Well said. What's one communication rule that everyone follows that your reset says is wrong? I think there are a lot of misconceptions around conflict. There is a movement afoot that I am just so thrilled is starting to sort of gain momentum about how to behave in conflict situations that is very much pushing back on the traditional thought that in conflict you need to be strong and resolute and persuasive. That's not actually how conversation works at all. It's not fun, enjoyable, safe to be in a conversation with someone who is trying to be persuasive. It is so much more effective to let go of this goal to be persuasive, almost entirely like suspend yourself in that moment, let it go and focus entirely on learning about the other person. If you can learn everything about their lived experience, about their perspective, why they hold that perspective, the data they know to support their perspective, how they feel about it, you're in a way better position to then say, wow, it really makes sense that you've come to feel that way, validate them, and only then might you be in a position to say like, oh, I had really thought this to move on to a disagreement or a persuasion moment. But people aren't going to hear your position and your persuasion until they feel safe and heard and understood. Ironically, people who are really good at validation and listening and learning and question asking, ultimately are much more persuasive because they have stronger and better relationships with colleagues, with family members, with friends, but that goes against both our instincts to be like, oh, I need to be like compelling and resolute. And it goes against many decades, I think, of sort of negotiation advice. How do you feel more safe in a conversation and how do you help someone else feel more safe? Because it seems like that's what we're all looking for. It's a really virtuous goal. I think it is sort of one of the main goals. It's the K of the talk framework is kindness and it really, the goal is that you're making people feel safe and like you sincerely care about them and you want to learn about them, not to exploit them later, not to use them and the information they're sharing with you. But because you actually want to know them, because you want to reach this point of mutual understanding and shared reality, how do you make people feel that way? Listen to them, validate them, continue to ask questions, and then over time, over the course of many conversations, you show with your actions that I'm not going to use that against you. I'm not going to exploit you. I love you. And that's the thing, the world isn't changed in the context of, in within one conversation, and our real relationships. A relationship is a repeated sequence of conversations over time. And you can show someone that they actually are safe when you think about that unfolding over time. I think sometimes today people don't have the ability to not have expectations of others. I, most people have an agenda with the people that they meet. And I was really fortunate, I mean, my monk teacher who's 75 today, whenever he'd interact with people, because he genuinely wanted nothing from them and needed nothing from them. He demonstrated to us how he never asked for anything, never wanted anything. He simply wanted to serve and help. And that became, for a lot of his students and for us, the way we functioned in conversation and even a lot of my relationships today are not relationships where I've ever asked for anything. Yes. Because I don't want to become friends with someone so I could get something out of them. I just really enjoyed their company or enjoyed their spirit or whatever it may have been. I've found oftentimes though that people often use those things as techniques to get something out of you. So they maybe do one nice conversation, but then the next time they meet you, they ask for something. Manipulation. Yeah. Or they work their way up and then they make it, not realizing that actually if they never asked for anything, I'd probably offer it anyway. Yes, right. Because I want to help someone that I care about. And often I find my best friendships are where I just feel I'm hanging out with someone that I really enjoy with and then I'll be like, wait a minute, do you know so? And so I think that'd be great for your business and it becomes a natural result of having a genuine relationship because you want to help them. I feel like anyone who's helped me in my career or my work has helped me because of that, not because I've always been like, can you help me with this and I'm trying to manipulate away in and even people that I choose to help. I don't feel manipulated. If I feel manipulated, I actually pull back quite a bit and I'll be like, oh God, this feels unsafe going back to that point. Yes. Living from that place because I think we all feel we need to do something to get something and we need to learn to ask for what we want. So what's that balance? Walk me through that. It's a very interesting empirical question actually of like what percentage of the population is moving through the world with this more instrumental mindset of like, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to sort of pretend to be nice to you so that in the next conversation or the third conversation I can actually ask for what I want versus people who move through the world who sincerely are trying to deliver to other people what they need. Whether that's fun and laughter and having a good time together, learning about them, making them feel known and understood almost as a value in my life. I believe that that second scenario is ideal. It's how everyone should be trying to move through the world. Even when I hear people talk about networking, this word of networking, it's almost like they're looking for like tips of like, how do I trick people into liking me? How do I trick people into thinking I'm smart? How do I convince them to hire me? I just think that mindset is completely broken. and you went to any event. party or specifically a networking event and your only goal was to learn as much as you could about the people there and specifically learn about what other people need so that you then you can go back in your life and think how could I actually do things that will help people get what they need? My friend Mike Norton who's also a professor always says he's like the best way to network is just to like do great things and then people want to be with you and then you're in the position to actually help them. It's not about having these tricky conversations where you're like convincing people to like you within the course of one comment. It's just not how relationships work. I agree. It's not a business card. No. It's not the exchange of details. No. It's none of that. I actually think about this gentleman who works with us in one of our companies and when I met him, he showed me an ad that he'd made for one of our products. So my wife and I own a Juni which is our sparkling tea company and he came up to me at a meet and greet and showed me an ad that he'd made and it was so good and I introduced him to my team immediately and now we work with him. His name's Antoine and it was because he'd already gone out of his way to make something really cool. He wasn't just like, I'm a fan of what you're doing. I love what you're doing. Please book me to do work. It was like, I went and did something. Yeah. And he showed me the work. It was brilliant. He's talented. And so I was like, okay, great. Let me introduce my team and we'll get you working on things behind the scenes. And so that to me was the best form of networking I'd ever experienced because it was proof in what he was saying. It's so many things. He's shown you his skill. He's shown you that he is able to think about what other people need and not just think about it and anticipate it but actually do it. That was effortful. That he was willing to put in time to do something to help you. And then he was courageous. He was courageous enough to come up and say, hey, I built this thing. That's so vulnerable to go up to someone else and be like, I love what you're doing. And I love it so much that I did this thing for you. Several things like that have happened in my life too. And it is just beautiful. It's mind blowing. You immediately want to work with them. Be friends with them. Know them. Not because you're like, oh, they're going to make more commercials for me, though they will. But because you're like, I can't wait to watch you use that superpower with other people. I want to be near your glow and watch you be awesome over and over again. And I'm going to admire you so much as you do it. Like bring your gifts into my orbit. And it's not because you walked up and gave you some like insincere compliment or something. What's more important being interesting or being interested? Interested. With an exclamation point, we talked a bit about topic prep thinking ahead about what you could talk about or should talk about. That's before a conversation. Once you're in it, really all that matters is being interested in the other person. And there's this beautiful truth that even if you have no idea what to talk about, all you need to do is ask questions and keep asking questions. A big mistake that a lot of people make is they're really proud of themselves for asking one question. They let the other person answer. And then they either turn the conversation back to themselves or they move on from it, right? Like they let the revelation, they let them disclosure die there. The really wonderful conversationalists know to ask the next question. Search for the treasure and what they've said and then ask about it. What did they seem unsure about? What did they seem excited about in that answer? What was what was confusing to you in there? And like keep diving into that. When you keep asking follow-up questions, the conversation gets so deep and so interesting and weird and exciting so quickly. You just said the word treasure there. And that's almost what it feels like that you're mining, you're looking for what resonates with the other person. Yes. And I think a lot of us are scared of saying something that doesn't resonate or asking a question that doesn't resonate. So if you ask a question that falls flat, you kind of retreat. How do we recognize that conversation is okay to go back and forth and you don't have to get it right every time? Because I think there's a sense of every time someone stops talking to rejection or every time someone doesn't get excited about your question, it's failure. What do we do with that kind of self-judgment that's going on? A conversation is more like a journey. It's almost like you're trying to find then if you land on a moment where both people are excited and interested, you should celebrate that so deeply. There are so many conversations that never hit that point. So instead of feeling like, oh, it's a failure. I asked this question. They don't seem excited. Oh, God, it's over. Focus on actually, oh, if we can find a moment that actually works, you've experienced a small miracle. More conversations have these moments, these little flops and lulls and collisions. And it's just messy business. When you start studying transcripts of conversations at very large scale, you start to realize how messy they really are. It's not just that you're failing to raise things that are interesting to the other person, which, by the way, is impossible. How could you possibly know what the other person's going to get excited about? It's like you're talking over each other. You maybe get excited about another thing and then you both get distracted and you go somewhere else. You collide. You forget. You might circle back. Transcripts look more like a train wreck than like the tidy scripts that we see on sitcoms or in movies. And so I think just getting more comfortable and more aware that that's how natural dialogue unfolds helps us find acceptance when we have these little moments of panic of like a shoot. Well, that felt flat. Just move on. Next play only. You just said that the way we see in movies or in TV shows. And I wonder whether that's what's impacting us so much because we forget that what we're watching, which is a great conversation, was fully scripted and acted out by two people who've learned that script and now are performing that script. But we watch down. We think God, they've got so much chemistry and they're gorgeous and they're delivery appropriately and you forget that they had 30 takes to do it. I'm going to push this even further. It's not just scripted television and movies. It's also our culture of media, even podcasting. There are so many ways that we convey unrealistic expectations of live dialogue that you, it's so easy to forget or not know that real conversations are incredibly messy. You're listening to podcasts that, you know, gaps have been taken out, things have been revised. Speech has been sped up. When you watch a movie, this is, this script has been agonized over for years. And then the recording of it and the acting of it was agonized over. And then the editing of it was agonized over. So it's actually very rare to see live dialogue anywhere except in your own life. We have a first row seat to all of our own failings and stumbles and collisions. And then we look outward and we see these like beautiful, perfect thought, provoking conversations that give us unrealistic expectations. What are your top three techniques for small talk? First of all, acceptance. Okay, small talk is not to be avoided or dreaded. Small talk is a very important place to start a conversation. It's a social ritual. It's how we meet a stranger. It's how we meet back up with people we haven't seen in a long time. Even people we saw this morning, when we see them in the evening and we say, how was your day? It's this way of saying, okay, we're in conversation now. Let's find some common ground. The mistake that people make isn't doing small talk. It's that they stay their way too long. They fail to move up what we call this topic pyramid towards topics that are more personalized, spicy, interesting, exciting. So you maybe are talking about the weather and then you talk about it for like two, three, four, five turns of the conversation. It's too much. You can start there, but your goal should be to move away from it as quickly as possible. It's hot outside. Do your kids like the heat? Do you like the heat? What's wrong? What's hard about the heat for you? You live in the city. Do you get sweaty on the way to work? Like ground it. Curly hair. Me too. Like the humidity goes crazy. All of a sudden it's more personal and then you can go to a weird, take it to a weird place, right? Like I have to wear my hair up when it's this humid because it would be just a disaster on camera, right? Whatever. It takes a little bit of courage to move away from that sort of mundane small talk, but you have to do it. So acceptance and then push yourself to move on quickly. Bit number two, advice number two. We have to go back to this idea of topic prep. Having even just one good topic idea helps you do that task of moving away quickly, right? Like, oh yeah, I meant to ask a J like what has he learned from hosting this podcast about conversation or what part of his self does he feel like is least represented on these podcasts episodes, right? Like you can think ahead about questions you think your partner is going to find fun to answer. And then advice number three is ask the next question, follow up. You know, how about the weather? They answer. You got to dive in like deeper, quicker, faster on whatever their answer is. Curly hair. Have you ever tried straightening your hair? Right? Like you got to go there. So ask the follow up question. Does that mean we should always be the ones trying to lead the conversation? Because a lot of people may not have these skills. So it is, is it healthier to go in and think I'm going to try and lead this? It's such a great question. If this is one that my students and work on in my class, a lot, the balance between leading and following, it's such an interesting game that we play when we're leading and following. Sometimes there are conversations where the norm, the expectation is very clear. You know, I come on here and we expect that you're mostly going to be asking me questions. By the way, I'm much more comfortable asking people questions and answering them. Everybody's all over the map with that. But leading for is following you should be prepared to lead. It doesn't mean that you're actually going to do that once you're in the conversation. If you're talking to someone who clearly doesn't know what to say, they're anxious, they're not taking the conversation somewhere, they're not taking the lead, then you should be ready to take on that mantle yourself and do it, right? Okay, we're going to talk about roll cup. Let's go. If though someone comes in and they're in crisis, they clearly have something on their mind, something they're dying to talk to you about and they're going right for it, we also need to work on our restraint and be excellent listeners and be willing to follow. Many of us are more comfortable being leaders, topic leaders, and some people are more comfortable being followers, and when we're pushed to fulfill the role that we're less comfortable with, they can feel hard. But we all need to work on being great at both of those things. How do you become a better listener? What is a good listener? Let's really break that down for people. What are the one, two, three things someone needs to do to actually be a better listener? Let's talk about the stages of listening first. Stage number one, you're taking in information from your partner, the sound of their voice, the content of their words, and what they look like visual. It's not just your partner, it's the whole environment all around them. I'm hearing an air conditioner in the background. I'm seeing you nodding. I see beautiful decor. We're taking in all this sensory information. Step two, we're processing a subset of it. We actually can't process deeply all of that information. Our minds are quite good at ignoring a door that just slammed or the ambient noise of an air conditioning unit. We try and focus on the things that spark our attention, that spark our excitement, that we're searching for, the other person seems excited about, that curation process of what we focus on matters. In live dialogue, there's a third stage that's so amazing and it's that we can express what we've heard and thought about back to our partner. So that should be our first attempt after listening to someone. The first thing to just say and make people everyone feel more comfortable is like listening is super effortful. We are bombarded by information and nobody is able to actually pay attention 100% of the time. In our research, we found that people's minds wander at least 25% of the time during live dialogue. Only 25%. And I think it's way higher. Yeah, I'm shocked by that. It was self-reported, so people know that admitting that they were not listening is not like social acceptable. And even then, they're saying, "Oh, I wasn't listening just now. 25% of the time, especially for people with attentional issues like me, I think the number is way, way, way, way higher." So mind wandering is incredibly common. And at the same time, we have this pressure to pretend like we're listening consistently 100% of the time, which leads to this weird thing where your partner might feel like you're listening to them, but you actually didn't. And that sort of comes to light later. So that's the first piece is that listening is really effortful. Put in the effort to do it, give grace to yourself and others when your mind wanders and there are breaks in your listening. Okay? The second piece is use your words to show someone that you did the hard work of listening. And in order to do that, you have to repeat back what someone else has said. You can validate what they've said. You can ask a follow-up question based on what they just said or what they said earlier. In a group, you can paraphrase. So, you know, "Oh, I heard Jay say this and I heard Paige say this. Together, it seems like there's a tension between this and this." So paraphrasing. And then my favorite is callbacks. Explain that. You call back to a small idea or more solar phrase that they said your partner earlier in the conversation or earlier in your relationship. They're just like scrumptious. It's like when we think of people who are charismatic, it's often because they're great at callbacks. They put in the effort to listen. They're clever enough to process it and hold it in their mind for a while. You're going on to other topics. And then they're smart enough and caring enough to bring it up again. Like, "Oh, that reminds me that you told me that you're going to this world cup game." Like, bring it up again. It makes the other person feel so heard because they were. And often it's kind of funny and clever, right? It's like surprising. Like, "Oh, yeah. It can be a very nice way to close a conversation." Someone tells you about their guitar lessons at the beginning. You talk for 30 minutes. At the end, you can be like, "I love this. I love seeing you. I can't wait to hear about your guitar lessons next time." Or like, "Good luck. You can struggle through it. It's going to be great." So callbacks. Callbacks are just incredibly powerful. That's brilliant. What a great masterclass. And what I love about what you said is this idea of repeating back what someone's saying. Yes. You know, I want to clarify for people and I know you mean this. It's not repeating back exactly what I've said. It's trying to show, not even trying to show. Sometimes it's just checking. That's what I do. I do a lot of that on the podcast where I'm like, "Hey, this is what I'm hearing because, and this I'm going to mirror it now. What I am actually hearing from you is that it's presence, memory, and attention. But I would argue, and Allison, you know this better than anyone. You research this. Those are three of the hardest things in the world right now because TikTok has made our presence three seconds. Our attention spans because of our phones are maybe 30 seconds. And our memory has been weak for so long that people struggled to remember what they did last week. Let alone what someone has said three months ago. It's almost like we're fighting a battle that feels impossible. The 25% number of our minds are wandering away from our conversations is when people have no device on them and they are actually sitting face-to-face in with eye contact with each other. Now add a phone or a computer and the pull of the screen and the you're diverting your eyes all the time here. That number is up to 90, 95%. The magnitude of disruption and replacement of attention from these devices and screens is wild. And I think behavioral scientists have not measured it well yet and we certainly don't know the consequences of it for our own mental health, in social consequences. As I was writing in the cab here, I started counting how many people I saw in the streets of New York, not on a phone. There are hundreds, thousands of people that I saw just on this ride. I think I saw two that were not looking down at a screen. I deeply don't want to be anti-tech because I get it. There's so many things that are helpful about it. And yet, the thing that I think we're not talking about enough and that I'm most troubled by is this attention piece. Our attention is so often pulled to our screens. Listening is already so hard to do. I just am so deeply concerned that like nobody is listening to anyone now. As someone who you said yourself, you have attentional challenges. What do you do in order to be more attentive and present in the moment? I felt you've been extremely present ever since you walked in, this conversation is flowing. We were flowing even before we started recording. What are you doing differently? Because I think a lot of people listening will be like, Jay, I really struggle with attention. Alison, I'm really confused about this because I try and be present and I'm making eye contact, but it's not what do we do to help people who are really struggling with that and want to be better? I find that the only thing that really helps me be very present with my children, with my husband, with my friends is to not have it with me, not have the temptation, physically have it separated from yourself. Even more so than sort of putting rules on it of like their silence and focus mode and no, no, it's literally the physical distance. My friend Angela Duckworth, amazing psychologist, as this wonderful paper showing that for students, the amount of physical distance between them and their personal electronic device is linearly related to their test scores, like the further away it is, the better you do in school. That's just students. I think this very much applies to all of us. The further the temptation is away, the attention suck is away from you, the easier it is to really do this. Even here, like this, your mind is going to wander like crazy. I'm working really hard because I sincerely want to hang on your every word. Still, your fantastical mind is going off and thinking of all this crazy stuff and that's normal. What about in terms of, sometimes I've seen this with people that they struggle with this and people say this to me, even if they're at dinner and they put their phone away, but now they're distracted by someone else's conversation or what someone else is wearing. And the person opposite them is just like, "Hey, I'm right here." And then even like someone's at a park, like there's a cute little dog over there, but you're trying to have a really meaningful discussion. What do you do in that moment where you've even put your phone aside, but now everything else feels more interesting than the person's thing. The world is much more of an interesting carnival when you're paying attention to it. One thing that I think can be kind of fun is label it, describe what is pulling your attention to your partner and say, "I see this very cute baby behind you and they are doing a very cute thing right now. It's like make them part of it so that you're sharing, you have this shared reality and you're sharing in that distraction." And then show them that you are going to fight the temptation to look at, just be like, "That baby's so cute. Let's get back to, you know, whatever. Let's get back to your guitar lessons." Right? So that you're almost narrating. It's almost admitting, "Hey, I'm distracted, but I love you. This is adorable and notable. Noteworthy. You're in that with me and now let's get back to this." You can save the that out loud. - I love that because I think that's the worst thing is when someone notices you drifting off. - And you're pretending like you're not. It's the pretending, it's the lying about it, like trying to convince them that you're listening attentively when you're actually watching the game behind them. - Correct, that's that classic stuff. - That's because this is you out the other person off. - Yes. - If you think about the two modes of failure, there's one where you are listening and they think you're not and the other quadrant is you're not listening but they think you are. - Both of those are problematic and so the goal should be, I actually want to be listening to you and I want you to believe that I'm listening to you. That's the sort of life that we're trying to get to. Both of those things are quite hard. - They are hard and you want to feel that the other person's also present and listening to you too. - If you're going to put in so much work, to be with them in this moment, to be present, to be hanging on their every word, to be caring about their needs and listening and thinking about what they're saying, if they're not reciprocating, it really is almost hurtful. - Yeah, it is hurtful. - I think people feel quite upset and offended by that. - It's disrespectful. - Yeah, because yeah, someone's really bringing their presence, their time and their energy, which is the most valuable currency today, I feel. - It is because it's scarce. - What's the difference between a good question and a great question? - I think a lot of people obsess about what question should I ask. It's like we're spending so much of our time and attention obsessing about the first turn of a conversation or the first turn of a topic pasture and we don't think enough about everything that comes after it. So what I care about more is not where you start, but do you ask a follow-up question? Do you listen and then ask the next thing? Ask the next question. I'd like to almost like push back on this idea of that there are good versus great question. A great question is one that shows someone you heard them and that you wanna know more. A great question is one that shows you are sincerely listening and care to learn the contents of another person's mind. A great question is one that makes the other person think differently in a way that they haven't thought before. That's a great question. - Sometimes the question that you think is the perfect question doesn't land with someone. - Yeah. - Their psyche doesn't see that as interesting or fascinating and now you think, wait a minute, I just failed. And you backtrack not realizing that it's not about that. I sometimes ask quite basic questions when I meet people because I feel comfortable in them. - Of course. - And I always ask someone, I'm like, oh, where are you from? How do you know the host? Have you been to this party before? And these are really basic questions that are not that interesting, but to me they build up a sense of safety with each other and a sense of comfort, which then can lead to a deeper question. Whereas I'm not going to lead with, tell me the most exciting thing you've done this week and someone can get quite intimidated by that. - That's so intense. Just yesterday I watched this on the street interview segment about the questions that people open conversations with and an adorable, lovely older woman said, I've been trying to open my conversations by saying, what's the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to you? - Oh my gosh. - Can you imagine? Maybe you get to a point in a conversation or a relationship, where that maybe, and the time needs to be right. But I think it's just, let's all stop obsessing about what's your opener and obsess a lot more about what's the follow up? What's the trajectory, where does it take you? I think, how are you, how is your walk over here? Is a great place to start? Listen to their answer and then like, get details, get details or start with a compliment. Hey, I love your earrings. Where did you get them? Great, great place to start. I also think that that's where real listening comes in. - That's right. - Because if I said to you, "Hey, I love your earrings, where are they from?" And then you told me, don't a bit, oh, tell me more about that store. I don't know it. And now we're actually talking, whereas if I follow up, oh, your earrings look great, where are they from? And then I have another package, three questions. - What's the most traumatic thing that I've heard about here? - Or even if it's, or even if it's like, or tell me about what you do for work, it's almost like I didn't listen to you. Because if I actually listened to you, then we'd just talk about your earrings for like 20 minutes, potentially, or where that takes us, rather than having to have like seven different topics, which I don't really want. - And what's really fascinating about good follow-up questions is that they're like stealth topic switchers. So as we go on and we're talking about the earrings, you never know when I'm gonna be like, actually, I've only worn these earrings in really special moments in my life. Or you might say like, "Oh, I feel really nervous when I walk into J-Crew." Like those stores and the cashiers make me feel like they're judging me, right? Like you don't know when someone's gonna offer a really vulnerable morsel of information that, like a conversation is like a decision tree, right? Like the branches of where things can go are infinite. And just because you start at this decision point, doesn't mean you're not gonna wind your way down to gosh, I've really been struggling with my boss at work. And it didn't matter where he started. - Yeah, absolutely, I agree. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are, but it can be challenging to balance style, budget, and endless options. I'm always looking for ways to improve the harmony of space at home, but it isn't easy. I want pieces that can ground me and still hold up to the test of time. I went on Wayfair and found a stunning, solid wood nightstand and cradens I love. Now my bedroom is the perfect place to wind down. Both pieces are incredibly sturdy, grounding and completely transformed, the energy of my space. Plus, you can shop with Wayfair verified, with product specialists carefully vet items for quality and functionality. So you can shop with more confidence, and if putting it all together sounds like a headache, Wayfair can handle delivery, installation, and assembly. Join Wayfair rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's w-a-y-f-a-i-r.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. What should you do when someone responds with a one word answer? (laughing) Conversation is profoundly co-constructed. It is not a performance. You can't control the other person, but it does make it really hard when someone isn't giving you much in return. I coach my students to ask this question you that you can ask any time, which is, can you tell me more about that, or can you say more about that? If someone's not giving you enough, try and nudge them to give you more, rather than getting angry, annoyed, or feeling awkward, sometimes people need permission. In fact, almost all the time, people need permission to share, to try something weird. Right, like a conversation takes a lot of courage. It's these little moments of courage, and if people aren't feeling courageous, they might give you a one word answer. So give them a little courage. I'd agree with you. I think sometimes we think people are not responding, because they don't find us interesting. That's right. Or they're rejecting us or they're reserved, and the truth is, they need permission to feel interesting. So when you say, tell me more, or go on. You seem like there's more behind that answer. Exactly. Right, like ask for it. And that person now gets to feel safe going back to your point earlier, where they feel, oh, this person actually cares. Yeah. And that's completely different to thinking the first question should've been the question that made them feel that. That's right. I want to try something with you, because I know that you're really into conversation games. Yeah, yeah. And you've created your own. I wanted to do one where I'm going to ask you very simple questions, but I want you to turn them into a conversation. I love this. So I meet you, that's it, Alison. How are you? I'm doing so well, Jay. I'm so, it's the honor of a lifetime to be in this beautiful space with you today. How are you doing? Oh, that's so sweet. I'm so touched by that. I'm really grateful. I'm happy you're here. I was really excited to have you here and been wanting to learn from you for a long time. I thought your book was fantastic. Congratulations. Thank you. I can't wait for everyone to read talk. Can I tell you that writing a book is very hard? I believe I've done too. So, and I just finished my third. So I totally get you. Right. Tell me about what was hard about writing the book. Well, I think for me, one of the hardest things is, I've been working on this research for almost 20 years. And as a scientist, you're trained to focus on large-scale data. So I think about, okay, what are 20,000 people saying to each other? But that's not what connects with people. I think most people kind of like, don't give a shit about the science, okay? Hot take. What they do connect with our stories. And I do too, right? That's why we love movies. It's why we love reading people's biographies. So what I found hard in writing this book was taking the amazing lessons that we've learned from the scientific research and then finding stories that help show those principles in practice, in action. What's so hard about conversation in particular, you need the whole transcript in order to really tell the story of a conversation. And you're trying to show like one thing at a time. If I wanna talk about the power of compliments, I need a conversation that shows compliments and doesn't distract in other ways. That was really, really, really hard. What was hard about yours? - So then I would start talking about mine. So like, what did you do good there? What did we do badly? What did we do well? - I love that you asked what was hard. And I felt like you really wanted to know. I like breaking out of this sort of expert role. I almost felt like I was able to enact being actually me. And so being asked about my perspective as a person, as an author, as a writer, feels very different then. "Hey, Allison, give us your best advice for "having better conversations." That felt really good. And it's like you gave me permission to share. - Right, right. - What did you think? Do you think it was good? - When I asked you, how are you? Your answer was so genuine and truthful and real that I felt more present in the moment. - Good. - As opposed to if you'd just said, "Yeah, I'm good, how are you?" - Was it a little shocking? It was a little surprising. - Yeah, for sure, because I think we're so used to asking someone, "How are you?" And they go, "Yeah, good, yeah, fine, yeah, sure." - I love surprising people with, I guess it's not enthusiasm, but almost like an extremity of sincerity. Truly, I like to be very real with people, especially when they give you the gift of asking you about yourself. - Yes, and I think you're certain that I think if we can answer that one question that we all get asked every day with a bit more depth, it will open up a whole new world of conversations. And I appreciate you don't want to do that with everyone. I appreciate you don't need to do that with every colleague, but at least one person a day. - A little bit, but maybe you could. - Maybe you could. - Yeah, a little, I mean, on the margin, right? I think if I were being critical of the conversation, we just had something that I'm always working on. I have such a bias to answer things enthusiastically and sincerely that sometimes it keeps me from being honest about what's not going well in my life, like sharing the hard stuff. And I think that is also very, very important for relationship development. - You gave me a lot of self awareness, though. Like I felt like I got to understand you a bit. - Thanks. - In terms of what you were saying about, what you found hard about it, and what your thoughts are on science versus story. - Yes, yes, yes. - And so when I was listening to that, I was like, oh, I understand the kind of thing coralescent is that she believes in the science, but she recognizes that she wants things to help people and impact people, which means she understands story. You know, and so. - You learned so much about me. - Totally. - You're so sweet. - It's such a simple answer. Yeah, it's such a simple moment. Salison, for the second question, I want to try something different. You're going to ask me the question, where are you from? Which is a question that I think people ask each other, but I'm now going to play the role of someone who isn't interested or interesting or is feeling self-conscious or is being reserved or is just trying to figure out the day or is feeling a bit shy today. And so I'm going to play that role. So I'm not going to be Jay. I'll just be this other character. Hey, Jay, where are you from? - London. - London. Oh my gosh, I've been to London a few times and I find the cabs so adorable. Did you love growing up in London? - It was okay. - Were your parents from London originally? - My mom's from Yemen. My dad's from India. - Wow. - She moved to London when she was 16 and my dad whenever he was about 28 or something. - Do they still live in London? - Yeah, they do. - What neighborhood? - North London. - North London. I said that as if I know the neighborhoods of London, which I don't. I'm so, oh my gosh. How often do you get back to see them? - Maybe twice a year, summer and Christmas. - Do you wish it was more? - No, that's good. That's good. Yeah, I like, I travel a lot already. So I missed them, of course. I love them, but summer and Christmas is good. - What do you miss most about London when you're not there? - Definitely family, of course. Friends, all my best friends are there. I think London's one of the most beautiful cities in the world. - I interviewed at the London Business School when I was on the academic job market, and that building is right. The ham stud heat, is that what it's called? It was so beautiful. - It's beautiful there, yeah. - I went for a walk around that duck pond, and you know who I saw from a distance? The actress Elizabeth Moss. - Oh wow, okay. - Who's in Handmaid's Tale? It was so vivid. It almost felt like a dream. I was in this beautiful park, and there's Elizabeth Moss. (laughing) That's how I imagine much of living in London is like that, where it's just sort of lovely. - I like all the time. - Not where I grew up. (laughing) In those places, yeah, not where I grew up. - What was it like where you grew up? - It was a lot more rough. So I wanna pause there, 'cause that was so good. So I had to try really hard to hold back. - I could tell. - Because in the big, I'm so used to just being expressive and everything, so I had to really hold back. But what I really loved about what you did was your enthusiasm, and your laughter, and your self-deprecating humor, whatever it was, kind of broke me down. And it was very natural that it broke me down. It was like, I was genuinely laughing, and I was genuinely responding. And so I thought that was really good because your enthusiasm and energy became contagious to me. And I find that a lot, when I'm out, is I'm okay being that person? - Yes. - Because I realize I wanna have a good time. - It's my favorite thing. I'm like, give me somebody who's not feeling the vibe, and now it's on. Now I've got this challenge. How can I make this fun? For them, for us, and for me, right? When I encounter people who give one word answers or are clearly struggling and self-feeling anxious or angry or whatever, I'm like, okay, roll up the sleeves here we go. This is what I love because everyone needs permission, everybody needs empowerment, everybody needs to laugh. Nobody wants an interaction to be stilted or unfun. To me, I just love the challenge of how do we make this fun and rewarding, especially with people who are not seeming like they're ready to do that. - Yes, absolutely. I love being able to showcase to people what this looks like in reality when I was shy or blocked off, when we were both inquisitive about each other, but I know you've created a lot of games as well for conversations that are researched back. Could you introduce us to a couple that we can roll play now? - Yeah, so they're called talk time games, there's seven of them. Each one is so simple. You are practicing a very clear skill and then you start with any random topic. Like we were saying, it doesn't matter where you start. So let's try the one. This is called Battle of the Nice Guys. - Okay. - We're gonna start at a topic. I'll let you know the topic is in a moment. And as we do it, it's a normal conversation, but we're gonna try and give each other as many compliments as we can that feel sort of natural. And then we'll say, okay, now we're done and we'll debrief it when it's over. - Are we assuming we don't know each other that well or are we assuming that? - Let's do it like our real selves. So we know each other to the extent that we actually know each other just from this. So I'll start by saying, Jay, what do you love about podcasting? - I love that I have an excuse to reach out to people I find fascinating and get to spend two hours to three hours with them. And I get to do this every single week. It's unbelievable. I love how you lit up, like you were like beaming. As you said that, I can tell that you sincerely love that. And I love the word excuse. I wish everyone had an excuse or reason to reach out to the people they admire and have a meaningful, long, nuanced conversation with them. Let's why there's probably so many zillion podcasts in the world that don't have any viewers because it's such an alluring and wonderful practice. - Yeah, I think it's just fulfilling as a practice in and of itself, even if you weren't having anyone watch because it was just a beautiful experience. But what about you, Ellison? What made you focus on conversation as your research and of course your book talk that you wrote on it? Why was conversation so gripping for you or why was it so? - I think many reasons. I'm an identical twin. And so I had this really weird, lucky life growing up with an exact copy of myself that I had to watch sort of walk through the world and through the social world when she would do things that were embarrassing. I'd be like, oh, I'm not gonna do that. And then I would watch her be sort of hilarious or like blazingly competent and think like, oh, I can do that too, it was aspirational. And then also you're just shoulder to shoulder with a best friend who's giving you feedback all the time. So it really is this very unique and lucky life. And I think I've almost devoted the rest of my life to helping other people try and experience that tight-knit shared reality. It almost feels like I know what's possible in human to human relationships. And you can get there in your marriage, in your friendships with your work colleagues if you learn to relate to each other quite well. - I really appreciate that you've taken something that was so meaningful to you in your relationship with the identical twin and wanted to give that to others. I think that's so admirable when someone has a special experience and then says, this isn't just something selfishly I want to have for myself. This is something I wish everyone else had. And I think that's such a beautiful gift to the world. So I love hearing that. - Thank you. It's true of what you're doing here too, right? Like you're saying, I love having the excuse to reach out to people. And that is, it's funny and this is true of most things in the world. That's like a thing that's rewarding to you personally, but you're sharing it with just so many people that everyone else gets to delight in that connection and learn from that person and learn from that connection as well. It really is such an admirable plate thing that you're doing here. So thank you. - Okay, so let's pause there. So that was really interesting to me. - Yeah. - Yeah, because when we started it, it's called battle of the nice guys. - Battle of the nice guys. - I initially thought you'd started something more surface level. - Yes, yes. - But you went for something quite deep for me. - And you could start from something. - No, and I really liked it. - We could have started it like ice cream, right? We could have started anywhere. - No, but I liked that. It wasn't deep in the sense that it was heavy. - Yeah. - It was just really thoughtful, which then inspired a more thoughtful compliment from me. So for example, if you had said, chair like your shoes, I would have said, "I love the color of your pants," and now we're in a battle of the nice guys based on something surface level, which is cool and it works, and it actually makes you feel good. 100%. Oh, I love it. Someone chose me. Someone chose me like my page does it every day when it comes. I love that feeling. That's cool. I'm into that. That's a great compliment. When you first said, "Let's play battle of the nice guys," I was actually going to compliment the color of your pants because I think they're awesome. Thank you so much. I love the color. Thank you so much. I was thoughtful. I was then challenged. To match. To match. That's right. And I think that, for me, is what I took away, which was if I had come back from you telling me how amazing it is that I have this excuse to reach out to people and I went, "Nice colored pants." Yes. It would now feel lopsided, I feel. Yes. Right? Am I wrong or right? You can kind of, yes, and I think you can kind of play with it. Okay. So, if we were. I was about to end, and your earrings are really nice. Well, I'm going to say, "Anger gorgeous." Right, like, there's a playfulness that comes from matching and mismatching each other. It opens up possibilities. What's the wrong way of giving a compliment, like, what's the way we give compliments that is wrong? Honestly, there's almost no wrong way to give a compliment. Everyone is so hungry for them. We need affirmation and love. We all just want to feel loved and admired. There's research on this. Even when a compliment is obviously insincere, it still makes the other person feel better. And it makes you feel better for giving it. Those are incredibly powerful. None of us are giving enough of them and stop. Backhanded compliments are an exception. When you give a compliment, like, the comment you made was really insightful just now, that makes you feel so good. If I said that idea was really insightful for a podcaster. Oh, God. Okay. When we give do flattery, it's almost like you always have some social comparison set in your mind. Probably. You're like, wow, she's really interesting to talk to for a Harvard professor or like, wow, she's really insightful for a woman, right? We should not verbalize those comparison sets because it undercuts the power of the compliment. And it could be a comparison to a social group or it could be like, oh, you look really great compared to the last time I saw you last year or like, oh, your haircut looks so much better, right, you're comparing them to a previous version of themselves. You can also do social comparison like, oh, your presentation was really good compared to pages, right? So there's all of these, we don't, don't do comparisons. It undercuts the power of the compliment. That's so true. I know people who do that to me all the time. Oh, yeah. And it makes me repel. Yeah. Like, I'm like, I don't like that energy. It doesn't feel good. Social comparison is a very profound thing that our brains do automatically. It's not that makes you a bad person that you're thinking it, but it's not effective to say it. Yeah. Like, the whole point of giving a compliment is to make the other person feel good. And by saying that was an insightful comment for a podcaster is like, oh, no, it's you just completely, it's worse than an insult, actually. Let's do a more like a aesthetic compliment. Let's show that part because I think that's something you would do immediately as you sure someone like, for example, the lady who's so kind to host us here where we are shooting today. She came to me this morning and said, I love your outfit. And I was like, I love your outfit. And it was just, it was more of a, and I don't know her that well till I thank her for her work or, you know, because we don't know each other in that way. And can I see you? I tell you, I know that's how you're seeing more surface level. But I don't mean that as a, yeah, I'm trying not to make that a, no, I think it's a good, it's a good, this is a really good topic because a lot of, um, sort of physical compliment have, feel very taboo to people these days, particularly in the workplace. You'll hear people say things like, don't comment on other people's appearance. Yeah. Never. And then I'm like, yes, that I, I understand and at the same time, that is the core of almost every meaningful friendship and relationship is just us sort of like building each other up. Yes. Making each other feel great about this moment and what's going on in your world. You look great. You sound great. I believe in you. You have to grapple with that. I almost feel like the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of not giving enough compliment. If we're no, a vacuum or no one saying nice things to each other because you're afraid of being canceled, it's doing real damage to potential connection. And I appreciate you correcting me too, because I don't think surface level is even the right language. Yeah. It's, it's almost like more easeful, more accessible, maybe levity, it looks like it's just lighter. Yeah. We're lighter compliments. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you saw me every day, you wouldn't tell me every day that what I do on the podcast is special or important. Never. Because it would be so hot. If I saw you outside of this, I don't think I would ever ask you or say that to you. Yes, yes, yes. You know, I would just be like, dude, because I love that jacket. Yes, yes, right? Right. Right. That's how flattery plays out in our real lives. Yeah. Absolutely. I genuinely love the color of those pants. Thank you so much, Dave. Like, what kind of green is that? I'm like, I can't even tell them. Thank you. What are we? It's like a pine needle. Who knows? I don't know. Yeah. But you're not. That's the thing. It's like that green just stands out. And then with the brown, it's so complimentary, like it's really great. Thank you. I'm really into monochrome fashion. And so I was a little mad that I didn't have like a top that was the same green. But then I really would disappear. Then, yeah. Then, yeah. So I think it all worked out. What made you into monochrome fashion? Like, well, how did that come? I think it goes back to my sort of like ADHD attentional issues. I really love simplicity and not having to think a lot. And so monochrome dressing looks so chic to me. And it's like you don't have to think about. If you buy a cohort as a set, a coordinated set or a suit or an outfit that all goes together, you don't have to think about it and it just like looks so fabulous. Yes. Yes. Yes. I love it. Let's do the conversation. Let's do battle the nice guys and try and do lighter compliments. Yeah. Let's do it. Where we are already doing it. I couldn't even talk. You already did it. You already did it. Yeah. I was real. It is real. No, no, no. It's fully genuine. I don't think. And that's partly what I'm saying. He's like, I would not compliment them if I didn't like them because that would be stupid. Like as in, I don't think that lands. It was genuine. I think the color is unique. I think it is. I was interested as to why you like I like fashion a lot. So I was interested into why you like monochromatic fashion. What we're saying and we're doing now is playing conversation games. It's really thought provoking to me that the blend between what makes something a game, what makes something pretend versus not pretend. I think what these games actually do are just give you permission to practice. Once you're in it, you're not playing. You're being you sort of workshopping a skill but also just really connecting with somebody. And so this often happens to me where I can't tell where the game begins and ends. And I think now I'm going to sort of, wow, I'm getting emotional. I want kids to get that permission. I want this to be happening in schools. It's mind-boggling to me that we don't teach conversation alongside reading writing and math. And all we need to do is three minutes a day of playing games that turns out are real connections with their classmates, with their coaches, with their teachers, and really learning skills that they're going to leave that classroom and use immediately. And the tips, the skills, the giving compliments, the admitting uncertainty, asking follow-up questions, prepping topics. They're not mind-blowing, they're not crazy. They're just things that all of us need to do and need to practice doing to develop those conversations, skills over time. And what's really wild is like it will make your conversations better, yes. But even more broadly, it will make your life better. It's the downstream consequences that actually matter. It starts with me saying, I love your jacket, which I really do. We call it a shacket, shirt jacket. Yeah, a shacket. I guess so. So it starts with a tiny little ripple. And the causal chain is long. That changes the nature of our relationship. It changes the likelihood that we're going to talk to each other in the future. Changes whether you're going to feel great later today talking to somebody else. It changes whether you're going to raise one of the ideas that we've talked about here when you're with your friends at the World Cup Final. It changes whether someone overhears you talking nicely to that friend at the World Cup Final and talking about talk with them. Maybe that creates a ripple of the people around you. And like we work our way up this causal chain all the way to sort of community democracy, starting with these tiny little moves of, I like your jacket, or tell me more about that. That's what I find so beautiful about humanity is that we're so connected in these tiny micro decisions that we make that seem so small to have the power to accumulate and expand. And I think, I really think that's why we need to be teaching this in schools. It's so fascinating that the things we do all day, every day, for the rest of our lives are the things we don't learn in school. And it's just shocking to me. I can't wrap my head around it. I know. We're going to talk to people for the rest of our lives and listen to people for the rest of our lives. And there's no class on it. You're spot on. Talk to me about the best way to receive a compliment. Because I think we may be okay at giving compliments, but receiving compliments were pretty bad. So for example, I've learned over the years on how to receive compliments and conversation, but initially, if you were to say, "Oh, the jacket's really nice," I would've been like, "Oh, yeah, yeah." - No, okay, I love your pants, like, you know what I'm saying? And then your compliment is also less powerful because now you said, oh nice jacket, oh nice top. - Yeah. - And it's like, I didn't even let it land, like I didn't actually create a conversation. And I think that's what most of us do. Like I'll be like, oh, I love those shoes though. What are they? And you're like, oh, then I think your shoes are great though. And it's like, that kind of quick dodge. That quick dodge, that quick shift from you to me, me to you, it doesn't create connection. It kind of actually like throws it right back. Whereas when we've been complimenting each other, we've been kind of sitting in it for a moment. And that sitting in it, or you even took my monochromatic fashion, I really like this. Like, that's what allows for connection and more. Now I know every time I see a monochromatic look that I think you'd like, I can send it to, yeah, exactly. And so I'm like, I learn so much when I sit in it to talk to me about how to receive a compliment. - You're totally right. I think it took a very long time in my life to learn this, is to let the compliment land and accept it. And maybe even build on it. You can share more about where it's from or how you can, you say, I love your book. How did you do this and really give more information? It's also kind of fun to play around with the people's instinct to dodge. And so you say, I love your pants. I say, enjoy the view. Like, accept it and go a step further. That's what shows confidence and security. And almost like maturity of saying like, thank you so much for noticing, right? Rather than immediately feeling uncomfortable and sort of pushing the attention away, I think learning how to accept other people's love, even in these tiny moments is a skill. - Sometimes we say things like, oh, I was just 10 bucks. I just got it from like, what's that? - Oh yeah, oh, it's just target. - But even that, you can say, but everything matters, right? Like, thank you so much. I never would have expected to get that compliment for something that I got from Target. God, I love that place, right? Like whatever the thing may be. It's just the spirit. It's sort of the mindset of acceptance and togetherness. I need to trust that you're giving me that compliment because you really mean it. I think paranoia about other people's sincerity can really wreak havoc on conversations, right? Like anything that you say if I'm questioning your motives is gonna get in the way of me being able to receive what you're giving. - What's the other game that you had for us? - Another one that I think might be pretty fun for us to do is about admitting uncertainty. Okay, so we were talking about kids a little bit. I think schools very much teach us to almost pretend like we know more than we do. And it's not just schools. Even this, even this life work, all of it pushes you, almost seems exert pressure on you to pretend like you know everything. - Yeah, so good. - It's a real problem because the people we actually like interacting with, the people we actually admire, the experts we actually want to listen to, are confident about what they do know and maybe even clearer and more confident about what they don't know. It's such a baller move to be like, I don't know the answer to that. I know the answer to a lot of things and I really am not sure about this thing yet. So admitting uncertainty this game, we can practice. And just like all these other games, you can start from a serious topic, from a lighthearted topic. And every time we go back and forth, we're just gonna push ourselves in our minds to say things we know, but also include things that we're not sure about. Things we're wondering about. Things we have uncertainty about in our lives. Let's start from a topic about technology. And we're gonna push ourselves to admit uncertainty and I'm gonna say to you, Jay, how do you use technology in your life? - I'm so basic and so analog. I'm pretty bad, like I don't even have everything synced up. I don't understand how to use a cloud. I'm so bad with technology. I'm good at it for work in the sense that I think I'm really fascinated by how AI can make systems easier at work and improve what we're doing and so I've had experts come in and help our company and I'm constantly looking for other people who can come and teach us because I don't believe I know how I can do that fully, but I'm fascinated by it and I'm curious about it. And so in my personal life, I'm extremely analog. I can just much charge my phone and just do the basic things but I kind of like a lot of analog things, like I have an analog record player. - Yeah. - I don't use a lot of tech throughout the day. - When I hear people say this, like I live a very analog life, I feel admiration and I almost want to know like how are you achieving that? I think because I'm not sure how to put limits on myself and on the structure of my life and my home and my work in a way that is optimally keeping me healthy and safe in terms of technology and so when I hear you say that you live an analog life, I'd love to hear more about how do you stay that way and not bend to the pressure of their Ava high tech world? - I want to point out what you did something that I thought was really interesting is that you asked me a question, which is a pretty open question. But then you didn't just talk about yourself and ended at that. And I think sometimes that's what we end up doing in conversation. - Yes, it's almost like parallel play. - Yeah, so you asked me, "Hey, Jay, how do you use technology in your life?" And then you just tell me how you use technology in your life. - Yeah. - And then I'm like, "Cool, could you ask me that question?" So I have no idea now why you asked me that because you just talked about yourself. Whereas what you did was you asked me a follow-up question that after giving me some insight into your life and the insight was vulnerable disclosure and you let me in and go, "God, I feel like my work pressure and the pull and all of this stuff." So now I have so much texture to respond to you with. And so my answer would be, I think half of it is because I don't know how to use stuff. Like that would be the honest answer. I'm like, I don't even know how to download an app and get the World Cup tickets on the app. And yeah, I'm so bad with that kind of stuff. So there's that version of me. So I think a version of me is just lazy. Like I just don't even know how to connect. - I don't think lazy, it's almost, I bet it's a combination of disinterest and incompetence. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, "Oh, thank you for pointing out these comments." Yeah. And then there's the version of me that likes having evenings and weekends, tech-free as much as I can. - Yes, yes. Which is more intentional. - And I'm not perfect by the way. I still look at my phone before I go to bed and all the rest of it's just to be really clear. But I think it's also surrounding yourself with analogue things. So I also got a hatch that I love that I wake up to, which is meant for babies, but I use it. And I love that compared to like my phone waking me up. Or, and so the hatch is obviously not analogue. It's, I mean, I guess it's very, it's not analogue. It's digital, but it's like digital without screens, without. - Is that the thing that very subtly, like it's louder? - Yeah, it does like morning light. It does morning light, it's the glow thing. It feels more natural. So it's a digital product, obviously. But it doesn't have a screen. It doesn't have apps on it. It doesn't allow me to be entertained. And so I think I've tried to find products in my home. And that's why having a record player, instead of thinking, oh, can I connect my phone to the speakers? Because if I have speakers in my home, and I have that system when we use it sometimes, but if I do that, then I'm on my phone again. And so I'm trying to find excuses in my home, in my vanity area, in my studio. I keep books open in my office. So I can just pick up a book, when I'm in that space, rather than pulling up my phone for entertainment. And so I've books that are interesting to me about different topics in different areas. So I might have a leadership book open in my office, or I might have a behavioral science book in my vanity area, or whatever it may be. - You're such a reader through and through. - Yeah, I love books. - I love books, yeah, I love books. - So obvious. I think something that I'm hearing in our conversation here is that for anything that you're trying to improve, there are structural things that you can do in your environment, right? You can be the architect of your own world, and then there are things you can do for your inner world in your mind to try and work on things. So I feel quite clear-eyed and certain about that dichotomy, like what do I need to be doing in my environment to design a life that's good for me, that's good for my family? And I feel quite clear-eyed about, oh, I constantly need to be pushing myself to be more other-oriented, to be less judgmental, to be these sort of inner goals. What I'm less certain about is within each of those buckets, when it comes to technology, specifically, for example, is exactly like what is the system I should be designing for my family that is going to be the best for all of us when it comes to mobile devices? An idea that I've been playing around with, it's like, oh, maybe we get a series of dumb phones, and it's more like a library system, so they don't belong to anyone in the family, and when you leave the house, you just check one out, and then you just, all it does is call and text, and as GPS and Uber, or music, and then you get home and you'd like, check it back in. So I'm constantly coming, trying to think of these architectural choices in the world, and the same with the inner world, right? Constantly, as a behavioral scientist, trying to think, what are the mindsets, what are the practices, what are the rituals that I can be doing that will help me be more regulated and healthy when it comes to tech? - So I'm coming out of our exercise, because we get lost in it. I love how this uncertainty game is allowing us to talk about the things we're grappling with. Yes. As opposed to talking about the things we fully understand. And so we're not performing perfection. Doesn't it feel wonderful and safe? Much better. It's so much better. I'm trying to figure this out for the kids. I'm trying to figure this out for the home. But you're also not complaining. And I think so there's this brilliant balance between performing and complaining. Because I think complaining also can just feel like draining and tiring. And like a weight for your partner, you're putting this on them. Correct. Yeah. And perfection can also feel like a weight. Because then it's like, oh, well, what are you perfect at? And so the middle balance of working things through in problem solving out loud and sharing uncertainty out loud is, and also not trying to solve the other person's problems or fix your own is a really beautiful way. I love that. I really love them. I think that's what these games do. They give you the structure and permission to say these things out loud and practice saying them out loud. So when you are with your friends, you will be more likely to ask questions that gives them permission to do this, to admit their uncertainty, and more confidence to yourself of like, oh, I know that admitting what I'm grappling with has this remarkable effect on my connection with other people. So I'm going to feel much more confident doing it. Yes. In the beginning of our conversation, you asked what makes people feel more confident during conversation. And I think a lot of answers to that question tend to feel like tips or tricks. And the sort of more accurate or profound perspective is that like all of these things, learning how to give yourself and other people permission to express uncertainty, to ask questions, to really put in the effort to listen, to move beyond small talk, like it's really the sort of co-creation of that sort of small shared reality between you that makes both people feel more confident and better about everything. Alison, in this portion of our conversation with a few more moments left, I want to go into two really big areas. The first one is dating. And then we'll get into difficult conversations and relationships. And I know in the book, you actually talk about both of these, which I was really happy to see, because I think they're the places we struggle the most. Why do people struggle so much on a first date? What are they grappling with? Conversations with strangers, with people you don't know well, are different than the conversations we have with people that we're comfy and cozy with that we know really well. They feel high stakes. They feel risky. I'll give you an example. There's a really nice research paper showing that long pauses on a first date actually are a sign that things are not going well. Long pauses with your spouse of 25 years are like the opposite. It's like a sign of cozy companionship and that you're comfortable around each other. So it's like all of these little things when you're on a first date are just everybody's like on pins and needles trying to figure out. Am I interested in this person? Are they interested in me? Is this going well? Is it not going well? And in order to achieve that magic connection, that spark that people are sort of looking for, it's a lot of pressure. You got to keep the conversation bubbling and alive and back and forth and you want to feel like you're really connecting and getting to know each other but also laughing. And it's like you're serious but also not serious. I think nowadays with like dating on apps, there's also this thing of like, are you going to stay long enough to even find out who I really am? You must feel this way with all these podcast conversations that are long. You could start at the beginning of it with someone that you truly are like, I don't like this person. By the end of two hours, I must be quite rare that you aren't like and love with that person. Not in love but like really admire them and find them deeply interesting. Or you can, yeah, I feel like your friends or feel like I know this person and I want, I just, that would, you know, like I fully agree. That devotion of time to another human being, it's just very likely that you're going to learn a lot about them and like a lot about them, even if they're difficult, right? Even if they're weird and eccentric or harsh or different from you. Very different from you and I think your capacity to kind of fall in like with people who are very different than you is an incredible skill. One of our data sets is actually very specific. The people who do best on first dates are those who ask more follow-up questions. Far and away, men and women on heterosexual dates. So much so that if you imagine going on 20 dates, if you ask just one more follow-up question on each date, one question, you will convert one more of the dates into a second date. So one more, one question per date, convert an extra date. Just one question. One question. Imagine if you has two. Yeah. Five. Wow. Women are more likely to ask questions naturally on average but it is equally effective for everybody. Well, a lot of women I know feel that they're asking a lot of questions and not getting a lot back. Yes. They haven't also been given the space to open up and feel like they can talk about these things in their relationships. Was there a type of question a woman could ask to help a man feel more comfortable opening up on a first date or second date? Maybe they could play the admitting uncertainty game. Oh God. Yeah. A lot of men are scared by that, imagine. There's one of the tools that we've built for talk studios is this tool called Talk Sparks. That's literally just, you keep hitting, give me my next topic and it's like an infinite scroll of topics. That's cool. What I love about it is like the topics are great. You're going to have a great conversation but it also is just kind of like a, it gives you permission. So if it doesn't go well, blame the app, blame the website. Blame me. Yeah. You know. Test it out. Yeah. I think if the more you can sort of de-risk conversations like first dates, the better it's going to go. You say in the book, if the conversation dies, the date dies. Yes. How do you revive a conversation after an awkward silence? It feels like your soul dies in that, in a two-second law, I very previously just tried to pause more than I usually do, just so we could kind of start to feel it. Sometimes I do that when I'm teaching, I'll just stop and let everybody sit in it and be like, okay, guys, it's okay. We're going to be all right. There are so many ways. You can come back with humor, like, oh, yeah. So this is going great. I'll be here all night. Um, the best solution is to just not let the law happen at all. And the way to do that is to ask a follow-up question, right? Like keep going. If you find yourself like in that panicky moment where you're like, I don't know what to say next, you can literally always say, can you tell me more about that? Let them go on a little bit more. While they're talking, think about the next pasture that you can move to. You have so much to learn about someone when you don't know them. Where they're from, what their parents are like, do they have siblings? Do they prefer living in a city or in the countryside? Why? What are they excited about lately? What are their favorite hobbies? What books have they read? What movies have they watched? There's just so much. You don't know anything about each other. And I want people to find comfort in that. If you go in with this learning mindset, you really should never run out of things to talk about. How long should you wait to know whether you can find out with someone because it almost feels like when you put it that way, you're like pretty obvious whether you get along with someone or not. What's really fascinating and I think a little bit sad is we can all think of examples with our friendships that where it took many conversations before you even really noticed someone or gave them the time of day or really started to enjoy their company. And vice versa, where somebody who was so fun and exciting and sort of spicy at a party, you might run into in a different context and you're like, oh, they were not nearly as like intriguing as I thought maybe was something specific about that situation. I think that's just, you know, being human for falling in love and romantic love, I don't think that we should expect to have sparks immediately. You might and it might feel magical and it might be sustained and that's wonderful. But you may not actually be able to fall in love, you might have to, it might be slower. You might need to give them a chance and give them a few many conversations. There's not research on that. In fact, there's quite a dearth of research overall about how relationships unfold across multiple conversations over time. This science of conversation is quite new. It's really only been possible. You studied language for hundreds of years, oration, right, public speaking since Aristotle. But the study of live dialogue was really only technologically possible with real transcripts over the last 10 or 15 years, which is why this book was so exciting to write. And I'm being part of that scientific evolution has been really exciting. But it means that it's still sort of a baby science and nation science and one of the huge areas of opportunity is figuring out what does a trajectory of a relationship look like across many conversations over time? What does friendship look like? What are the different scenarios? What does a coworker situation look like? What does falling in love look like across conversations? I think that's where the science will go in the coming years. Do you believe in the 36 questions? That find you love. I've used the 36 questions in many of my studies and research. It falls into the same category of like, I don't think the opening question matters nearly as much as what you do with it. What I do like about the 36 questions of fall in love is the structure of it, because you ask the question, the other person answers, and then they ask back. It's almost like telling you how to reciprocate and listen to each other. That, to me, I think, probably matters more than what you're talking about. They are an interesting sequence of getting more and more in depth, but just asking follow-up questions does the same thing? If we start from a place of when was the last time you cried, and then we go from there, things are going to get deeper, they're going to get fun, they're going to get deep again. It's less about the 36 questions themselves and more about, again, that's an exercise that gives people permission and a structure to connect with each other. If you're in the middle of a heated discussion with someone, what can you say to lower the tension? It's funny. It's so much focus in public discourse for decades and still is about difficult conversations. Because they are upsetting, they are scary, we dread them, we don't like them, they are often the demise of relationships, but everything about those difficult moments is easier and more tolerable depending on how the easy conversations have gone. The little ones that seem like they don't matter, the mundane ones, the quick, like, oh, have a great day, I love you, conversations. When you do get to a hard moment, if those are going well and you trust each other and you delight each other, the hard moment is much easier to face, right? That's trust. So there's sort of this long termedness to it that I think it's lost in public discourse. In the moment, what can you do? We, our human instinct leads us to have a persuasion mindset. I'm right, you're wrong. That is like the worst mindset that you can have during a disagreement because it's only, it's very hard to receive and it's only going to make emotions more hot and things more conflictual. We have to cast aside that persuasion instinct and focus on learning. In these moment hot moments too, what's going on in your mind? What's upsetting about this here? Tell me more about why this is upsetting. Most of our disagreements, especially with our close relationships, are we get pissed off about a small thing. They left their clothes on the floor, they beeped at someone in the crosswalk. They didn't pick up dinner on the way home and you thought they were going to. Then you have a conversation that feels really heated about it because it's not actually about the thing. It's not about the food, it's not about the laundry, it's not about the beep. It's about what those things say about them as a person. Those things say about their respect for you. It's what those things say about your relationship. Are we the kind of people who snip at each other about clothes on the floor? Are you the kind of person who doesn't listen to me when I say it's important to me to have a clean bedroom? It's these little mundane things that shoot these barbs down to our identities as people and as a pair. In those moments, learn as much as you can about their perspective. Keep in mind that it's really not about the thing they are talking about. Don't throw more things into it. Don't snowball and be like, and you and you never pick up the kitchen and you and you spent too much money on this and you did that snowballing is so bad. Validate their feelings. It makes sense that you feel upset about that. You're right. You've asked me to pick up. I'm so sorry. I was really rushed getting out the door and ideally they reciprocate and say I totally get it. I know that it's really stressful when you're rushing out the door. That becomes a thing that you can reciprocate to each other as well. Validation. If things are really heated, it's very easy to forget that you don't have to talk about it right then. Walk away. Let's talk about this in five minutes. Let's talk about this in an hour. The power of taking a breath and getting space is really remarkable. Especially for people who are like, no, we need to solve it now. We need to fix it. I'm pissed now. Take a breath. I think sometimes the reason we even get to those moments is because we avoid difficult conversations in the build-up. Yes. Yes. I feel this is where we struggle most with communication and conversation. Yes. Is we don't have the conversation with our partner. We don't have the conversation with our boss. We don't have the conversation with our colleague. Then it erupts into something much bigger, much later on. How should people prepare for and how do we get better having difficult conversations? I think this question of when do you voice things and when do you keep them private is one of the great conundra or mysteries of human life. When is it worth it to speak up? When is it worth it to share your views and not, especially when it is a dissenting viewpoint, when it is a clearly going to be a disagreement? I think a sort of public discourse about speaking up often loses the nuance of, it is annoying. You should not always speak up and disagree if you don't think it's going to be worthwhile, but chewing on your resentments and over time is extremely damaging too. I find it helpful to reframe this question as like, how do you set up the conversation in a way that feels like it will be productive? And often the answer is privacy, one on one, not in front of other people, is almost always the case. Two, when there's enough time to actually listen to each other, it can't be a passive aggressive thing in passing. Like, schedule a thing. Schedule a sit down. It needs to be at least 30 minutes to talk about it. So, private enough time and go in with a learning mindset. And if you have those three things, it's far less scary and far less likely to sort of chew on the resentment quietly over time. At what point is distance and no contact better than conversation? If people's emotions are so hot that they can't listen to each other, there's a really great paper, great research about how people conflate disagreement and listening. It's like, when I hear somebody who disagrees with me, in my brain, I'm like, you're just not hearing me. You're not listening to me. I think the reason we conflate them is because disagreement is so often accompanied by hot emotions and hot emotions actually prevent us from listening to each other. But when we disagree with people, that's when we need to be able to listen the most. When we need to validate each other with our words the most, when we need to ask the most questions. And so if you are in an angry pissed, anxious, fearful, upset state, and you don't think you can do the hard work of listening and validating the other person, then you should not have the conversation. You should wait. Yeah, because I'm someone who believes conversations are always better, but there's a time when it's not. There's so many times when it's not. And there are times when voicing your opinion to a group may not be optimal, but to imagine like drawing out all the conditions for one or the other is maybe the next book. Yeah, Alison, it's been incredible talking to you. I could talk to you for a couple more hours, but we end every episode of on purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. Okay. So Alison Wood Brooks, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best communication advice you've ever heard or received? Second question, what's the worst communication advice you've ever heard or received? Here are 10 ways to be more persuasive. What's one phrase that can help repair trust through a conversation? I'm so sorry. Here's how I'll do better next time. Question number four, what's a conversation friends should have more often that almost no one does? What do you admire most about each other? That's beautiful. I love that. Fifth and final question we ask is to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? If you are within 10 feet of another human being, you have to make eye contact with them at least. The book is called Talk, the Science of Conversation and the art being ourselves. Alison Wood Brooks, congratulations. So grateful for this conversation. So, excited for this book to guide people through dates, difficult moments, work events, conversations with colleagues, friends, loved ones, family members. I'm just so grateful for your time, managing presence. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jay. Thank you for the amazing things that you bring to the world through these beautiful conversations. It's been an honor to be here. Thank you.