‘Ali’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

The rewatchables is brought to by the ringer podcast network, where you can find higher learning. Yeah. Yeah. And midday boys. Don't forget it. And ringer tailgate. Going crazy right now. Yeah. Go crazy. Yeah. Yeah, man. Jeff Kessler coming on. Kessler was nuts. We're having so much fun. We talked about Stacy Dash and being Carson on the last episode. Damn. CR. And then you're doing beautiful pod and Adam Friedland's podcast. Yeah. And talk to thrones. Pop on big picture and talk to thrones. Yeah. Still thrones. Same show. Or we go backwards. We're in the 1200s. Yeah, we're moving slightly forward. Yeah. The Viking era. It is the Viking era. It's the Norwegian national team. Yeah. Irling Holland. Yeah. We're going to do a movie called Ali direct by Michael Mann, who is about to take, I think, the lead in the director rankings, or at least high five. As he should be. Our guy, Michael Mann, Ali is next. All right, guys, Ali, a movie that we all love, that's super flawed, and we all love it anyway. And it came out 25 years ago. This fall, starring Will Smith, director by our guy, Michael Mann, sports biopix. So there's the biopix about the guys that weren't super duper famous, Cinderella, Mann, Rudy, Reggie Bull, Lamata was famous, but not famous famous. King Richard, C. Biscuit, Secretariat, Chair of the Fire, Rush, really good one. For the first Macro, then you have the Itanya, the rookie, blindside, those types, give the Disney ones, like 42 and race and radio. The biggest athletes, I think they've ever tried to do this with are pre-fantane and Ali, right? Where there was the myth around the person almost made it like, "Oh, you can't do a movie about them. They're too famous." And they do this with Ali, and it mostly works, right? It's the closest thing that they'll ever have to do. We're never gonna do better than this. Yes. Yes. Yeah. The pre-fantane thing was interesting because they released two pre-fantane movies within like two years of each other. Yeah. Yeah. The better one was without limits, which is a really great movie. A good movie. Yeah, really good movie. I'll try to. So it's cruddle and let all, right? Yeah. Yeah. Cruddle one is great. The little one is watchable. Neither one of them are bad. But I actually didn't know who Steve pre-fantane was before that movie came out. It was like a monster. Whereas Ali was the most famous, likely, to the 20th century, which hangs over the movie. Ali had his own biopic, obviously, that he had started. And then a couple of years before this movie came out, when were Kings comes out. And which was like this really penetrating look into Ali versus Foreman. And that heightened my expectations for this movie, I think. I think a lot. I think that documentary affected a lot of people the way they went to the movie. I think that's the best sports documentary I've ever met. Really? I do. No hoop dreams? A lot of hoop dreams for a degree of difficulty, yes, when we were Kings, I think the perfect sports documentary. Do you consider having it passed? Would you put last dance in there? I mean, last dance is 10 episodes. Sure. So that's almost like a docu-series. I don't think that could be a documentary. When we were Kings is just like, if you want to, I mean, this is kind of what this movie tries to do, too. If you want to kind of capture how charismatic, lovable, fascinating, galvanizing Ali was, that probably does the best job. I think the film actually follows documentary structure in some ways, obviously it follows documentary sensibility style wise man making all these efforts to really recreate moments. And yeah, it's completely stylized the way all Michael man stuff is, but like, he's out there with lipstick cameras, you know, like, I mean, like in the middle of the night shooting digitally with Will Smith running through neighborhoods, you know what I mean. So it's like, it's as real as it can get, but it feels almost like a doc in its narrative style in that they, they have so much to cover that they're just like, we're going to do away with the, like, the arc of a character in a lot of ways and just show these crucial moments. But it makes sense how they do it. I agree with what you said, where they're just like, this is about him winning the title, losing it, getting it back. Yes. Right. They didn't try to do that. And it's about his political awakening, which I think. But it's about those 10 years and then they try to go and all this other stuff that the problem I had is to see there should have been, and I love this movie and I've watched it a bunch of times, but it's flawed to see there could have been an hour or 45 or like 10 hours. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because we're bringing in all of his female relationships. We're bringing in Islam in a real way and Malcolm X and all these other themes that I think you need, but it's also like we, we, I mean, this is the weakest link of the movie. We just moved three years. We go from 1971 to 1974. Yes. We're like painstakingly going through all these things and it's like, I mean, he had 13 fights during that stretch. He got his job broken by Norton. All these things happen and they just kind of skip ahead. I think that there's a, the, the Ebert will get to Robert Roger Ebert on this, but in his review of the movie, I think is the thing that bothered people the most about the film is that this movie treats Muhammad Ali in a way that he's not remember culturally. Hmm. Like, and, but way more serious and reflected and like when you, when you read Roger Ebert's review, what he essentially says is that like Ali was fun. I hung out with Ali and Ali was quickie and Ali was like quick and he was that and when we talk about Muhammad Ali, even when people talk about, you know, all the political trials that he went through in his life, they talk about him in this way that he could put a smile on it. He did it all with this tremendous flare and twinkle and it's a twinkle in his eye. This movie kind of explores that being part performance and I do not think that people responded to that very well. Like, there's a version of Ali and like, even like somebody like Martin Luther King Jr., you get a Santa Claus version of Martin Luther King Jr. when he's talked about historically. But if you ever really dug into his life, it was very stressful, anxiety written in a lot of ways, pain. It's one of the fascinating aspects of guys and there's probably only like half a dozen that I can think of where it's like Tiger, Jordan, Ali, like these people who wind up becoming almost like some icon doesn't even feel like enough of a word for them is that the relationship you have to them as like a younger person or as like a fan changes once you find out more about the context of like what made them who they are. So it's like my understanding of Jordan is like, he's the best basketball player in the world. He's the most famous athlete in the world. He's in in the cartoons. He's selling sneakers like he's delightful. And now my attitude about him is like almost like a tragedy where he's tortured by competitiveness and like what happened to his father or throughout his life is just like carrying around this millstone of of a chip on his shoulder about every single slight he's ever experienced. So that these guys can contain multitudes and I just think man decided in some ways like it would have been better if he had called the movie like the political awakening of Muhammad Ali or something like that. Like you know that would not have I have some stuff about that for later. He basically said he thinks it's a movie about defiance. Yeah. Yeah. And so Ali's my favorite athlete ever. I mean like for real like I loved him. And when I was five years old six years old I started watching him on wide world of sports because he was on all the time. That was like basically his weekly window and he would just go on and even have fights. There was a joy and a curiosity and like a fun about him that even if you were like from Boston you were like oh I just that's what you would turn on you would turn it on on Saturday or you know it's usually Saturday sometimes out of special shows but it would be like I hope Ali's on. And then he would come on and it wasn't even like he'd even have a fight. He would just come on to make fun of Jim McKay or however so. But he had and that's what I think when we were King's captures like you just see him moving through Zaire and he's he's just so curious and loves that he just wants to connect with everybody. And I don't think the movie totally captured it. There's one specific thing that I will never forget I'm pretty sure is from when we were Kings they do it in this movie they recreated from that documentary or maybe our earlier documentary but when Ali is flying to Africa and he sees a cockpit with the pilot that's in the dock in the documentary Ali is beaming with pride like he's beaming with pride and he's using that to teach and what makes Muhammad Ali who he is as a speaker and as a like personality comes through they approximated in this and it just doesn't quite feel the same. And but I appreciate the movie for going for it. The movie is trying to show you just how small and big Ali's world that was at the same time. - That's why I think it's a win 'cause I think this could have gone badly in so many ways. That quality we're talking about Ali, the only person I've seen in real life who has it is Charles Barkley. - Oh. - Like I've watched him do it. And he's like that all the time. It doesn't matter what situation he is, he's genuinely curious, he connects with people, he's funny, like just enjoys life and enjoys intersecting with everybody. And everybody said that's what Ali was like. Like it didn't matter where he was. And the movie hits it a couple of times. Like they have that scene when he goes to me Joe Morton at the diner. And then he leaves and he goes outside and he runs into like the four people. - And everybody yeah. - And he starts like this where she's like, "I'm gonna come see you next Friday." - Yeah. - He's like, "You better get there early." - So it taps into it, but I feel like Michael Mann's interpretation of Ali was just kind of darker than how I think I'll lead. - So it depends on how you want to read the movie. Do you wanna read the movie as a sports biopic where you're evaluating it on its rendition of real life events? Do you wanna read the movie as a Will Smith movie, which is a movie star vehicle and as an act of him immersing himself in this character and transforming his body? Do you wanna read it as a Michael Mann movie? And if you read it as a Michael Mann movie, the closest partner it has and many people have commented on this is not like an original thought by me, but the closest partner it has is the insider. - Would he have just made it? - Yes. - And it is about a guy being subsumed by things that no matter how big he is, are larger than him, right? And it's about the government and religion and all these institutions, trying to suppress him weighing down on him, trying to hold him back in his evolution as a human being. That's what's interesting to man about this movie. And you can see from like, honestly, what is maybe the best 20 minutes that man's ever put together and maybe I'd put it up against almost any other filmmakers, 20 minutes is the opening 20 minutes of this movie are-- - A fucking-- - Which is to reason it's rewatchable. - Symphony, it covers like 18 different aspects of American life and does so in a way where your head is spinning around by the time he knocks out. - It's almost like that's why he wanted to make the movie and then he tried to figure out the rest. It really, when you watch the open, you start to think, like you're thinking, is this gonna be one of the best movies ever? - Why is he gonna be one of the best movies ever? - I still think that way in 2026. - Like you watch this movie. - And it's like Sam Cook is going. Ali is going, things are happening. - Malcolm X is speaking. It's moving. You're like, we're going backwards on a bus. There's Emmett Till and now we're going forward again. - Right, you're like, what the hell is going on? And the energy of that, he almost sets the movie up with that energy and then he slows it way down. - I mean, it's unsustainable. - And you couldn't do it, right? - Yeah, I want to get into like the finer points. I want the viscera of Ali all over me. But I'll say this though, I think this movie is also him talking about, I mean, talking about what he believes Ali was. - Like he's actually trying to-- - He's trying to theory. - Right, it's a theory because if you look at Muhammad Ali and just this extraordinary life, but somebody that popped up every time you saw him, I feel like for a lot of people, I brought it up, I said it before and like you kind of almost reiterated when you were just talking, they don't want to believe that Muhammad Ali wasn't like that. They don't want to believe that he wasn't on all the time. They don't want to believe that the government and his family, his own personal picadillos, like whether or not he could be a good, they don't want to believe that that stuff weighed on him because it kind of ruins their fairy tale about him. And man posits that the actual man is actually more interesting than the fairy tale. You even could have gone, like what you said about Jordan, Ali, I've probably read, I've read every Ali book, every sports illustrated, I've seen every documentary, every book, like name it, I've consumed it because I loved Ali. Ali was like a pretty mean spirit of guys sometimes. Like the shit he did to Frazier was brutal. And that was one of those things 'cause I loved Ali and as I got older, Mark Kramer wrote a great book about it called Ghost of Manila. And he's just like, what Ali did to Frazier was fucked up, you know? - The fact that Frazier was helping him and the fact that they had a. - He tried to present, he tried to push Frazier as he's the uncle Tom on this side. He's on that side, he's corporate. - Right, Frazier was like. - Frazier was like, dude, I was. - I'm trying to give you help, yeah. - Frazier hated his guts to the bitter end. That's what led to Manila where Frazier's like, we're fighting to the death now. I hate you this much, like both neither of us will ever be the same after this fight 'cause of what you've done for me in the last, with two me in the last five years. But Ali was like a little like Jordan, like pretty could really get me. - Like yeah, and left like a, left like wreckage in his way. - Like that stuff he did to Floyd Patterson and Cleveland Williams and then Terrell, which the movie hits, where he's so mad that they don't say his name, like he tortured Floyd Patterson. He keeps Floyd Patterson up for like an extra four rounds. So he can like keep eating the shit out of him. - As an aside, I don't know what you guys is version of this would be, I'll just ask. What is this athlete is in the prime of who they are, they are unbeatable, the best they've ever been. - It's disappearing for you. - No, no, no, not disappearing, just in any sport for you. Like if you wanted to show athletic dominance and excellence, what would you show? - I would show Ali against Cleveland Williams. - It, bar none, it's not even close. A lethal 215 pound killing machine. The way he breaks him down, if you, that's fine. - Cleveland Williams was good. He was like, that fight is on YouTube. Watch him fear asking for like a single game. A single game he'd been enjoying against the 90s for sons. - Right, like if you want, he comes out first half of the first half of the first round feels him out. And then he's got, I got him. And he just starts this beautiful symphony of destruction. - Yeah, there's, it's not for me, it's hard for me to pick like individual games. There's like swaths of Bo Jackson or Michael Vick and especially bonds where you're like, that's good. - This is going out, like it doesn't matter. And you know, that's, it bonds his mentality at that point where he was like, there's just nothing you can do to beat me. - We're at a second half Super Bowl Falcons. - No, come on, come on, dude. - 5 straight touchdown drives, all the two points. - Yeah, but I mean, Ali is the best heavyweight ever. I would put the Cleveland Williams fight, give me every other heavyweight he's winning. - There's nobody who has, there's no one at that weight you can put in the ring with him and they're going to beat him off. - He's the most charismatic athlete we've ever had. He was in the running for most handsome. - Manali was beautiful, everybody loved him. He was, everyone was attracted to him. - He's probably the richest, would you say he is the richest subject for sports rating ever? - The sport, he seduced all those sports writers. - Like sites in the movie, right? - He would hang out with all of them, especially when they were in Africa because former got hurt. And Ali had like an extra six weeks with all those guys, like Norman Nailer's down there or maybe he was a Manila, one of the two times when he was in locations like that. And he would spend real time with them and they would write the most flattered, like they fucking loved him, big-shap, all these people. He just knew how to play the game. But it goes back to the Barclay thing I mentioned, like he genuinely was like that. He liked being around whoever. He didn't like being alone. That's why some of the stuff in this movie, I'm like, I just feel like Ali was around people more. The thing is is that he's constantly around people in this movie. - Well, there's times when he's like alone and so that. And I think if he was alone, there was probably a woman in there. - Not to cut your wisdom, CR, but like there's, I think one of the constant themes in this movie is that he is suffocated. He can't do any of it. - Yeah, well, he's always got a photographer. - He's always got a spiritual guide. He's always got a wife or a girlfriend. - He's got plenty and he's selling his belt. - And all of these people's problems, he's so singular in his charisma and his capability that all of these people are like, "Chan, help me. "Chan, what are we gonna do? "Chan, what's going on?" - Well, he's probably the all-time most exploited celebrity we've had, like in terms of entourage, in terms of the nation of Islam, just taking most of his purse multiple wives, like just, you know, he was broke by the time, it was like 1979, he had no money left. - Yeah. - People just stealing from him left and right. - I tried to find a bunch of interviews what I was gonna say is I tried to find a bunch of interviews with man about it and he's obviously like, so articulate about his own world. - There was one great one, the Deadline Hollywood one. - I haven't found him address this necessarily, but I really wonder whether like, to half of him wanted to make a Malcolm X movie. Because the first half of this movie is a Malcolm X movie. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's about like Ali being enthralled to this guy, being pulled away from him by the nation of Islam. - It's its own movie and it's fascinating. - The same thing happened to me on the rewatch, that happened to me when I saw it the first time. It's basically every time I watch this movie, I started, I'm like, holy shit, this is the best movie I've ever seen. Huh, this is Malcolm X movie. And then like, I'm so disoriented that the second half of the film kind of like slips away a little bit until Zaire. And then the second time I watch it, if I go back and restart the film, I'm like, oh, this is really, really, really good, Jen. [BLANK_AUDIO] awesome because once you know the rhythm of it and know where it's going to go and know what it leaves out and know what it accentuates, it feels just a little bit more like in the pocket. First watches with this is tough. So you know what the movie doesn't do, which the Malcolm X character does. So a lot of times when you watch films that are set in this like racial, racial reckoning period of the 60s, they give you a lot of like news clipping stock footage. Hold your hand. They give you firehoses and they give you dogs and they give you look at the people marching. This movie sets all that up through the character of Malcolm X. It's like Malcolm X who talks about the black churches and the four little girls. It's Malcolm X who you see like I am a black America's vengeance. I am the pain. You see that in him and then you see like cash is clay at that point learning about it and connecting to it through him since the movie doesn't seem concerned with doing all of the other tropes that other movies do. They put it all into a character and that performance is phenomenal. Yeah. My Mario van peoples. I text you guys the other day. I always forget like I'm great. This movie in the first half of this film, that performance a lot of it exists in the shadow of Malcolm X which happens nine years previous right. Then you get into the whole like at one point spikes attached to this film. At various points all of our stone is and wants Denzel to be in it like to be Ali. I mean it is a fascinating text for that decade of filmmaking and those filmmakers. That scene when they're in Africa and he's excited to see Malcolm and then slowly realizes he's got to get away from it. Yeah. It's so and the way the purpose plays that. Yeah. I think he's right. I'm like looking off and not sure whether he used to take a picture of it or not. He's like, yo, that's like he go, yo, that's my man. That's our guy. Yeah. You like you see them and then you know that they're in the movie at least that they won't see each other again. And Ali thinks it. Do I read this right? I leave thinks it before he says it. Yes. Oh yeah. He goes. He's standing there. He's with his friend. We never get to hear the inner monologue of Muhammad Ali because we think that his talent is so effervescent that it just flows out of him like gifted by God. But he's standing in front of this incredible historical figure that's been his friend. And he thinks you shouldn't have done it. He builds up the courage to say it. And then now the basis faces just drains man. They were really close. Like I think they started hanging out in 62. And then when he started feuding with Elijah Muhammad, it was about like the adultery stuff and that that became the the breaking point. And then what? Squid. I like this. Tell us more about the nation building. It would be just an amazing final act for years to convert to the nation. I'd be excited to be William. Max. The movie makes it seem they had a conflict, but they don't really explain what the conflict was about. And it was about Malcolm X who was like the guy underneath Elijah Muhammad who didn't like some of the he felt he was a hypocrite. And right. But it had a lot today with the adultery stuff had a lot to do. And a bunch of others. But what's about there? The government was involved and the government was involved in driving. And that's actually the government stuff is the most. It's not the most, but like it's an interesting tactic. And it almost suggests a wider canvas he wanted to work with. But man, when you get the Ted Levine scene with Leon when he's like, yeah, and we want to know about this guy. Well, I want to ask Craig about that because this movie, so it comes out of no one when everybody knows everything about Ali and Michael man makes the movie assuming, oh, you know, I don't need to go into this because you know this, right? It's like when when a MLK dies and he has and just Ali's looking out, he's on the roof. Yeah. And there's just and he's like, I don't need to show you like the three minutes of what happened in America, because you already know this. And there's a lot of we see the riots like we see it's a quick like he gets in and out because he's like, oh, I assume you know this. I assume know this. But you, I mean, you saw this movie for the first time, right? Could you follow all the stuff that happened or were you confused? I did feel like there were moments where I was a little confused and I don't think this movie holds your hand in. No, it's the opposite one. It's weird that it starts with a declaration of what day the movie starts and then we never see another day does a timestamp. I have to felt like I don't know what year I'm in. I don't know where I am. It helps to like basically have his Wikipedia page open and be going to these fights and as you find out like, okay, so I had that in what stage is the worst for this. I actually don't know why he didn't put dates and kind of root you in where we were. And it just seemed like a miss. Maybe that Michael man's like, I'm too good of a director to do that. But I really think it would help. I think more than anything, the reason why it's such a big swing as a biopic and Ray kind of follows this same type of basic, yeah. He really wants it to be about the characters. He tries to tell the story of Muhammad Ali's life and not necessarily a recounting of Muhammad Ali's life. So it's like his discovery with Islam, his discovery through women like who he should end up being with his discovery to what's important to him. And he doesn't need the title to be who he is. Almost every single scene where something significant happens, you could leave the scene as if the scene is asking you what if it were you? Like what if it were you and you and you had found this new religion or movement that you were into, but it went against what your father wanted. What if you fell in love with the woman and she didn't conform to what it was this thing? Like every and you take this huge, huge cultural figure and you just make them a guy. Yeah. And then there are some ideas that are so huge that man's trying to illustrate very quickly. So like young cash is seeing the blonde hair blue eyed Jesus that his father's painting is got to do so much work for like this kid and a little kid that's a little kid from the wire, right? Yeah. Yeah. Doing such an amazing job of like kind of like what the fuck is this? And then that is why like, you know, however many years later he's he's in this head space where he's open to converting. So man said, if there's a team to the movie, it's defiance. We defied that along with every expectation about him. Goes through a whole bunch of stuff about when he's going to make himself as heavyweight championship of the world, he's going to be a motivational personification of something totally different a black man in his own culture with his own pride. And then that was what I think he's trying to do with the 10 years. Here's here's the climate Ali walked into. Here was his motivation. Here's where he wanted to end up and then everything culminates and Africa, which is why the running scene is so long and Zaire. Yeah. Because I think Michael, that's the one time Michael man's doing some hand-holding. He's like, I really want you to understand this. This running thing. What a piece really having it. He's having this is a piphany. Michael man, last of the Mohicans, he the insider, Ali. This is the imperial phase. Jesus. This is him like at the center of everything and all the big major, the major movie stars, the great actors are like lining up. Run it off again. Last Mohicans. He the insider, Ali. I don't know. I mean, that's that's 92 to a one. It's just like with that, with the variety of the movies. Yeah. I don't know if it gets much better than that. It's a pretty good foreigner row that have nothing to do in common, but then there's common threads in each one. I feel like I wrote this when I did my review of this movie a long time ago that I think he felt like if I pull this off, this will be my legacy one. I've done some really good shit. I'm one of the best directors in the world, but this is the hardest IP to pull off. I'm going to try this. I'm going to go for it. It's also like, I think 25 years later, I don't think a way guy's directing this. It was kind of controversial. That's controversial. No one. I think now it's ready. How did you feel about that, by the way? I've always wondered what a movie that was a little bit more culturally at home would feel like what a blood and look, we have not stopped making Muhammad Ali stories. He pops up in all kinds of different stuff. We see all the time. But like, I did wonder that, but I'm going to be real with you, man. I think maybe, man, compensated or overcompensated, the beginning of this movie is very black. It is very black. Maybe he was trying to do a little bit too much. You know, like when you, when you're on your homeboys or like, you got white homeboy and you're listening to a tribe called quest and he goes, yeah, man, these guys, they really influence Kanye and you're like, shut up, bitch. I shouldn't have said that. Yeah, it's like we, I know you ain't got to perform. Let's just enjoy the music. So, and I, so the version of that in this is like him be like, what if we also went to the Apollo the night? Right. So he's like, I'll show you guys where I can make, I can make a movie with these people as well. But to me, it feels It feels authentic though, like that kind of grounds the movie. I think that's one of the best sports movies scenes ever. And it's one of the best scenes of Michael Man's career, if not the best one. We'll talk about it when we do rewatchables. Yeah, so he's got that, and then you have Will Smith. He's only taking two swings in his career. It's this, six degrees of separation. Other than that, every choice was safe. This one, he knows, he even said I have a quote in here, I guess from later, I'll find it. But he's 33 years old, and he's basically like, this is it, like I'm in the prime of my career, I got to do this, this is my moment, spends a year learning how to box and talk like Ali. Basically takes two years to make this movie, because he wants it to be perfect. And also like Ali approved them, Ali had the rights to this and you know, wasn't gonna do it unless he felt good about the weed person. He's as close as you're gonna get to an actor being Ali, but you're just not, some see how somebody becomes Ali. He does the best job. There's scenes where he comes alive as Ali, but it always feels like Will Smith. Yes, I never, I never forget. I never, I never forget what I'm calling Ali, basically. My glory, my glory, my glory. There are moments of real beauty. I think all of the physicality of his performance is amazing, the boxing, the running. The boxing's excellent. Him holding court or being in a press conference, the intimate scenes, the scenes of the women, the scenes of his really just conversion. I feel like I'm watching a historical reenactment kind of. This is the, usually the problem with biopics. My hardest take is that this is one of the strongest performances in a biopic whenever Will is not talking. And I know that that feels silly, like that almost can't be a thing, but there's so much, there's so much action happening. There's so much drama happening and that a lot of times in order for like his reaction to Malcolm X in that scene and just the one line. Like when he's understated or when he sees Michael Michelle for the first time, yeah. And he's like, hey, he nails all of that. Every single thing, every way, everything that when he, when they don't call his name and he decides he's not going to be inducted, all of that. But when he starts trying to do the Oli voice, it's impossible. You can't do that. Yeah, that's not going to happen. And that's kind of when maybe you lose a little bit. And it's weird because there are so many figures around him that are so iconic and I can't help but feel like Michael T. Williamson is doing Don King. I'm like, this is fucking awesome. That one scene when he does the Don King in the outside when he tells him, "For him, I got hurt." He becomes Don King for like 75 seconds. It's not only this, he's also like Ron Silver and Jamie Foxx and all of these guys, Kosell, you feel like you're in the middle of it. Michael T. Williamson kind of like inhabits the energy of Don King. Like, Don King feels like a little fucking sleazy, a little fucking like dangerous. Like, it's all really understated. And some people said it was super naive at all times, but then other people would say it had pretty good sense. So he snipped out the Don King thing pretty early. We'll talk about all those actors in a second. Craig, who is Ali now? Like, this is the most beloved celebrity we had. For I would say the entire 1970s and 80s. I think people loved him the most. You guys could probably tell me what year or what kind of era that it flips, but boxing just culturally expired. And I have no relationship to boxing other than like, do you think there's a celebrity though? Anybody in boxing? Or is it in all sports? In anything. Well, it's hard for me to even know how you felt about Ali because I wasn't there and I don't really get it. So I think like, who is that for you? Is that the biggest athlete of your life? Highest approval rating? Who's the biggest athlete? I mean, probably Tom Brady or LeBron? It's just nowhere close to the significance. Yeah. And LeBron James is a massive, huge guy who has political. He's just nowhere near. Nowhere near the importance. There's no way. There's no way. It's impossible. I've only seen it, Ali, which I caught in the tail end as a little kid growing up into it, Jordan. And then Tiger got close. He didn't have the personality. No, I think it's almost more common for us now to experience that kind of thing. Or at least in our lifetimes like on a local level. Like I would say, Iverson in Philly for a couple of years had like this magic to him and this larger than life. That's kind of people also didn't like him. I know, which would put some more Third Ali in the 60s. Well, I see. But he was not, I mean, we were talking about like a global, like if this dude walked into a restaurant in China, people would be like, that's fucking Muhammad Ali, you know what I mean? Well, also it's sometimes unfair when we do this because like the 60s are the adolescence of America. Yeah, and the end of mass culture. Right, of mass of mass culture of America. Like this is when we're like, okay, this is like we're going through the game. Is this thing going to work? Or we're going to figure out a way around this and the people who embodied that, they live as symbols for that forever. And we're just in a different spot now. Jordan is probably that guy for my direct generation. But his, his grand contribution is his ability to be light and stinkers. That was amazing. If you were like, it's Mr. Beast. That's what I mean. I'm like, Taylor Swift. I don't know. I like Mr. B to two. Well, I think the thing that pushed Ali over the top for everybody was that he actually sacrificed something, which I think when, when you're sacrificing your own, all the, that's just money. But this part of his prime, all these different things. That's then you're at another level. Well, I do think now there's a bit of like a sanitation to the most famous people in the world now. Yeah, there's nobody putting themselves out there. Like, what would Ali be like in social media era? I know it's like, I don't, he's got a personal photographer flying throughout like following around. He knows he's important. He's going on wide world of sports. He's got sports writers like in his coterie. Like, he is documenting himself in real time. But it was never overexposed. I don't, I don't think it was in pop. My, I've been in Potswood. My event in Potswood in the seventies to be overexposed. Also, in many ways, and the Jordan thing I was talking about, you actually double down on it when you said the sneakers, Jordan kind of invents that type of sneaker culture. But at the same time, Jordan's main thing is that like, he was beloved as a pitchman and that that became what people wanted to be before Jordan, the actual archetype, for the modern athlete was Muhammad Ali. Yeah. That's who people wanted to be. Jordan actually kind of changed that. Jordan didn't want to have any type of political stance. He didn't want to have any type of counter cultural significance or relevance. He just wanted to be the guy that had the number one approval rating everywhere. So whenever he told you to buy you in bud. It worked. Also super handsome like Ali. Super handsome. I gave for Will Smith. Right. I'm giving him the Peter North award for most effort, put it in a movie. Okay. He put on 35 pounds. Yeah. He had to try to figure out Ali's weird Louisville accent, which I think is like almost impossible. Bryson too. It's like a draw, draw combined with like there's a sink song in this to it. Um, I don't know. It's, I've never heard anybody do it 100% successfully. It's almost like when people try to do Barkley. Like you just can't do it. It's like a one-on-one voice. Right. Yeah. Um, we'll take a break. There's a couple other things to discuss. I'm going to do the categories. This episode is brought to you by zipper cruder. A lot of times it feels like there's just not enough time in the day, especially when you get older. Time speeds up. Tony. It's the thing I've noticed. I try to, I try to make my day slow down. I do some multitasking. Um, try to get the same amount of sleep every day. Everybody's got some tricks. You get older. You figure out more and more tricks to try to try to schedule your time better. Well, a smart trick to save time when hiring is to use zipper cruder or old friends. Try it free at zip cruder.com/rewatchables. That's us with powerful matching technology and a new feature that shows the most interesting candidates. First, it'll help you connect with people faster. Save time. Meet great candidate sooner with zipper cruder. Remember, four out of five employers who post on zipper cruder get a quality candidate within the first day. Yeah. That's been the same stats for like 10, 12 years. Try it for free at zip cruder.com/rewatchables. Once again, zipper cruder.com/rewatchables meet your match on zipper cruder. So one thing Michael Mann said about Ali, he said he represented the enormous possibility that the poetics of actual self-determination had to defy not just the establishment, not just white America, not just people who are a fear of militancy, but also the NAACP, Joe Lewis, you name it. Everybody who was centrist and had an interest in maintaining the status quo. Now, he says this in 2017, he says, "We are still talking identity politics in 2017. Try understanding that perspective in 1964." That's a good point. Best of the point. Jamie Foxx. Yeah. - So he was in that and he gave it Sunday's Willie Beaman. It's the first time we're like, oh, Jamie can act. This is pretty good. He's unbelievable in this. And I remember one of my big takeaways seen this in the theater was like, fuck, Jamie Foxx is a great actor. I had no idea. There's the interesting dynamic here van where he's kind of the Tom Brady six-round pick to Will Smith's paid manning of like, oh, you're just supposed to be over here. It's Will Smith's time. And nobody sees the Jamie Foxx thing really coming yet. And who wins the Oscar first? Jamie Foxx. There's actually a Jamie Foxx was hosting something. It might have been the MTV Awards or something like that to where Will was still in the era of unveiling his body. Like, before the movie came out, we looked at God damn, Will then God swole. And I remember Jamie comes over to say on this, whatever bit they're doing on stage, Jamie comes over to say what's up to Will and Will takes off his jacket and everybody's like, oh, my God, it's Will Smith. And then he gives his jacket to Jamie Foxx. And then Jamie Foxx kind of like slinks away. He plays it up, you know, Will's kind of the star. He's kind of the co star and everything like that. The whole I lead thing is happening. In two years, legitimately that changed. It didn't change to where Jamie Foxx ever you served Will as a star. I don't think that that quite happened. But I think you think that happened? I don't. I think it was inconceivable that he would be in the conversation. But he caught and then he was because like, yes. It's like collateral, the collateral rate years, what? 2004? 2004. Yeah. By that point, everybody's in awe of Jamie and everything that he could do. He was also more, I think, like, in the Hollywood range. Yeah, he was. Smith, but we'll spend that that point was like, he was married, he was, he was just a major star. Jamie was accessible. Oh, Jamie was at the, you know, partings, he would come on the late night shows. I think they were. They, I think they had two different parts of Hollywood. I think Jamie's Hollywood was a little bit more rat pet. Will's Hollywood was a little bit more corporate. Yes. And we, yeah. But I think that they kind of managed their careers at a certain point where it was like Foxx is still like, I want to do TV. I want to host stuff. I want to do music comedy, like, I want to be in everything and Smith's running his career essentially on the Tom Cruise track of like, when you do this, it has to hit. You has to count. Jamie plus everybody's asked, they did, like, Jamie is legitimately one of the most talented people, like Sammy Davis junior type shit that we've ever seen. He's great. And then as soon as he's funny as fucking shit to, like, Bundini almost greases the skids for Ray. Yeah. You see the same type of DNA in this performance, like, in the same type and then what he's audited in. And then we have Van Peebles is Malcolm who, I think this is probably the best he's been in a movie like this. Right? He had a good career. But I think, I mean, can you imagine how fucking hard it must be to play Malcolm X after Denzel? Red after Denzel. Mm-hmm. Like, not that far after. Man, Mariel Van Peebles is a fucking genius, like, Mariel Van Peebles is one of those guys when you go back and look at the totality of things that Mariel Van Peebles has done and done them well, that is a fucking A plus creative man. New Jack CD. It's Mariel Van Peebles. Like, you know what I'm saying? So, like, here's to us is in this movie, Jeffrey Wright, it's Howard Bingham. Jean Carlo Esposito, who's great in this movie. I like that there's only, like, one scene with him and JB Fox when they're drinking and I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't even find more of them. He's like, it's water. Yeah. Ron Silver is Angel of Dundee. Joe Morton. Sean C. Askeridge. Ted Levine. Briefly. Leon. Bear Shabaka Henley. Michael T. Bruce McCall. Even has a-- McGill. Bruce McGill. I worked out McCall again. Yeah. Bruce McGill. All of them are great. All of them are graduated. That guys. Yeah. Known of Jay, Michael Michelle. Yeah. Yeah. We'll talk about Paul Wow. Regus. Yeah. It's for the Bicicco. Does he have a line? No. Does he talk? I think maybe he had a director's cut. He has a line. Yeah. And then John Boyd is Coastal, which is another one. It shouldn't have worked. Did you say Jada? Well, yeah. I'd even gotten to the ladies here. Yeah. But John Boyd is Coastal. He gets nominated for an Oscar. That's like, you can't-- who can play Howard Coastal? That's like doing an SNL sketch and he's really good. Yeah. I think probably makes him a little more kind of a good hang than Howard Coastal was, by all accounts. Well, the intimate moments between Oli and Coussell are the ones that really sell it. When he's like doing the coffee and he's like, have some coffee with your sugar. Yeah. And then he's like, hey kid. They're coming for you. Yeah. And then Known of Jay to Pinkett and Michael Michelle. I went to an Oli junket because I wrote a piece for Page 2. I got to spend 10 minutes with Known of Jay. Yeah. It was the best looking person I had ever seen. That was impressive. It's a thing. It's impressive. It was really, really impressive. It's a thing, man. That's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful woman. First script was Sony 1992. Ended up at Columbia Pictures in '98. Ron Howard, Harry Sonnenfield. Can I have five seconds on this? Yeah. It is worth noting that this script was like in development hell. This was like a almost 10 years. In the 80s, they were talking about doing this. Yeah. I think there was different guys attached. There's the credits are, I think Gregory Howard has the story credit or some original screenplay people. Then there's two other writers credited. Then Eric Roth and Michael Mann also get a screenplay credit. At various points, this was going to be the childhood story of him up to 40. There's lots of different versions of this out there. It's kind of a miracle the movie hangs together as well as it does. How about Ali with approval of everything? Yes. Which never really works either. And he has a life. And at that point, he was fading. And they keep trying to do it and never makes good work. Basically, everybody from you older is like, that's not Ali. Like, you're going to have to. Including Ali. Voting public is going to be pretty harsh with this. So Spike Lee wanted to do it. Was in negotiations. And Will Smith really want to make a man to do it. Interesting. Is it apocryphalical Smith told Spike Lee he was going to have to expand his boundaries if you wanted to direct this? And they had that in my notes. Didn't couldn't imagine him saying that to Spike Lee. Now, I got to say like. Malcolm's too important to this movie. I don't know how Spike could have directed it. I don't know if that. I think it's too weird. It would have been the same film. We would not have been the same phone. I think that there's a version of this. I think that the Spike Lee movie, they two vastly different movies. Vastly different movies. I think the Spike Lee movie might have had more cultural relevance. It might have been more. It might have been thematically tighter in terms of what he was trying to say about Malcolm X. Oh, excuse me, Malcolm X. Ali. It would have been a smaller movie. And Will just liked movies for everyone. And Spike doesn't make movies for everyone. And probably wanted to work with Michael Man, too, who is scorching hot at the time. Do we ever worked with Spike? I don't think that this was the deal breaker after this. What years, 25 hours at O2? Yeah. So we get that instead. Yeah. I mean, like, I think that's a win for us. For us. Yes. Maybe Spike Lee would have liked to have the maraud Hollywood. But I will say this. It is interesting. That Will Smith has never worked with Spike Lee. Most of the guy guys. So the biggest black actor we've had since younger than Denzel. Right. And probably the only person who didn't work with Spike Lee was Will Smith. Yeah. It's just an interesting thing. It's also the Jamie work with him. With Spike. I don't think so. I don't think so. But it is worth noting also that Will was the first person. I think he, he turned down Django. And then Jamie does Django. But later because I think maybe those types of movies are like, I can't do it. I don't do it. He can't make, you know, after earth or whatever the fuck that was, you know, like, like, you will remember. I don't do it here. Grandland. I wrote a huge piece about this. Did you? About Will Smith. Is the Will Smith career arc and was about Will Smith. The Django thing. Saying everything about his career decisions in the 20th, 21st century, basically. It was too hot for him. It was. He studied it. He was honestly like an advanced metrics guy. And then his agent studied box office and the movies that made the most money. And they were all like outer space. Big action. And that was like, he's just like, I just want to do those. And never really wanted to experiment with anything else. So Django was like too much for him. After earth. Jamie stepped right in. I like it. I mean, it's also the craziest thing about the slap is that's the dude who had the most, like his, his. The most carefully. Public reception in his career was so carefully managed. The crazy thing about the slap is that the slap might have been, might have not been as efficient as it was. If not for this movie. Because we don't have to learn how to learn how to throw punches and get his shit straight. So years later, that slap came through and you can get out the way of that bitch because it is moving. I think. I think the Fox, I mean, now, the Will Smith Chris Rock slap is the weirdest thing that's happened this century. So. 21st century. That's my number one fact. So weirdest thing that's happened. So listen. I watch it sometimes. I'm like, I can't believe this happened. And so our movie and then he won an Oscar and afterwards our movie won the year before. So we're still in the haze, right? So that year, everyone that was involved into this and strangers is at an Oscar party because they act like they care about you for like two years after you didn't get it. It's like whatever. So everyone's at it. I'm in New York doing hip-hop homicides. I have worked all day. I've gone to sleep. I wake up. It's a million fucking text messages. But the first one is from Collega and it says, "Will Smith just punched Chris Rock in the face on stage live at the Oscars? Where are you?" I'm like, "There's no way that happened." Some facsimile of that might have happened, but there's no way that that happened. And when I looked up, that's what the fuck happened. Will Smith walked on stage at the Academy Awards and slapped the shit out of Chris Rock. I didn't affect how you watched, Ali. I always feel like I have a little Will Smith baggage now when I watch Will Smith movies because that slap was so weird. I have zero. It's in the back of my head, always. It's like way down on the list of the most deplorable things. People have done movies, I still have that. It was just so weird. I can't believe he hit Chris Rock ever been watching it, but it made him say it. That's so interesting to me. I still can't believe that happened. Will Rell is the best on this. Will Rell goes, "Yeah, we'll shit in here." He goes, "Yeah, we'll shit in here, Chris." But I get it. He's the funniest on that. It's just like, "Yeah, he lost himself. He went up. He spiked the guy. It happens." Michael Man did a director's cut in 2017, where he basically said I was totally happy with this finished product of this movie. He said, "With the hindsight of history, I felt that drama didn't get all the way there because he made some tweaks. It wasn't as strong as it should have been. I don't think I changed anything on a movie like Heat, but here, the proportion, how it made you feel, wasn't quite right. And then he made his little tweaks." So, I'm sure he had to hand this in. It's like over 150 minutes. It's two hours, 40 minutes. And I'm sure he's like, "Oh, man, there's so many things I like in this movie, but I can't." Totally in the casting of the film, like there's got to be footage of, there's probably more Angelo, Freddie, and Bundini footage out there. Come on, Daddy. Yeah. That's it. Let's go, Daddy. Don't jump in one place. It's probably just more boxing period. Good. That would have been sick. Oscar Nams will spend nominated for Best Actor, loses to Denzel and Training Day. We're good with that. Yeah, well, that works. John Boyd nominated for "How Cosso," he lost to Jim Broadbent in "Iris." Jimmy Fox. Not nominated. Should have been nominated. Yeah. 110 million made. 87. Lost money. Big, big, big, big. It's kind of crazy. Yeah. Ebert, two stars. When it came out, did you feel like the thing that was working against it was the critical reception, as we're about to get to, or why didn't this do better? It came out a week after Lord of the Rings, also. Yeah. Critical response was like, eh, this is good, but it just, I don't know, 87 million is still not awful for '01, but the fact that it cost 110 million, because man's like, I'm going to Africa. We're going to Africa. Yeah, we're going here. We're going here. We're recreating this. 87 million is bad for one reason. We're looking at Will Smith's movies before that. I knew that the movie would have problems resonating with people when my dad didn't like it. My dad is the man that handed me VHS tapes of Muhammad Ali, and for some reason, he couldn't connect with the movie, like the movie for some reason. He just, he didn't like it. It's also too long for, if you're going to be two hours, 45 minutes, then you only get the two screenings a day instead of the three, so you're cutting into your own money. They almost had a stroke. I did split it into two different viewings. Ebert Two Stars, a long, flat, curiously muted film about the heavyweight champion, lacks much of the flashfire in humor, Muhammad Ali. Shot more in the tone of a eulogy than a celebration. His review is really good for this, but I encourage people to read it, but he does say no. No modern actor could capture Ali completely. I've never read him and disagree with the review more. Would you disagree with him? Disagree with the fact that the movie in some way should have been like a celebration of Muhammad Ali. I think the best thing about this movie is to examine this extraordinary life. Like, we don't need Muhammad, the celebration is his life itself. Yeah. What I always want to know from a biopic, my one question from every biopic is what it cost you. That's the only thing I ever want to know about a biopic. We know that you were great. We're making the movie about you. We know that you did what it cost you, like what did you have to give up? Like what love did you leave on the table? What personal situations did you leave on the table? What skeletons or bones do you have behind you to achieve that type of greatness? Because that's sacrifices what it takes. That's what this movie is about to me. It's obviously a character or in a person that is just too close to Ebert. I mean, Michael Mann doesn't make humorous and celebratory movies. So it's kind of like, you know what, Tanne and Ebert. He wrote a great, great piece about the Rocky movie, watching it with Ali. And he said, he's talked about. He spent one day with him. I saw a man enormously entertained by life twinkling with amusement, lowering the tinted glass window of his role as limousine. So pedestrians could do a double take when they saw it was him. And then he's like, he thought Smith played him as more meditative and subdued, sad. And I just think he was like, that's not the guy I spent a day with. And that seemed like he colored it. Anyway, most rewatchable scene, we mentioned the opening, Sam Cook all the way into the Bundini intro, into the list and weigh in. What's a better Michael Mann sequence other than maybe the bank shootout? I mean, the opening of heat is pretty high up there in terms of like, an opening of a film. There's several battles in Mohicans that I think attain this kind of like Nirvana, but diner seen in Thief, the diner see this big type romance. Yeah. But this is, this is among the best things he's ever put together. The collateral. I was just saying when he shoots bearish tobacco, and that, that stuff is hauled. I was just looking at collateral, that stuff all really works, but hey, homie, is that my briefcase? God, damn, we used to be a real country man. Hey, homie, is that my brief, I like one list that goes, keep talking. I'm going to fuck you up. It's like, Oh, just don't kill Tom in that movie. Don't kill Tom in this. This is all about collateral. Yeah. No, don't kill it. Don't kill Tom in the movie. Don't kill it. It just run it back three years later. For collateral, too. For collateral, too. That's right. Day of the soldario. Like more rewatchable scenes that aren't going to win because we are to have the winner. Third round, sixth round of the Wiston fight is really good. I like when Liston quits when all these on the on the stool, kind of watching Liston. I was going to ask you. What's the wrap on the list in cheating with the blinding Ali thing? Was that he? Liston definitely did that. So I think that it was just that it happened on its own that like they were put, they rub you with stuff. It got on the gloves. And it got not with his eyes. But no way. Most people look at it. Liston was a scumbag. Like, there's no way he didn't do that. He was a bad man. He was a bad person. Bad man. He was a heavyweight champion of the world. Sony Liston was a bad person. Don't you? You're talking to Bill X? Come on. William X did not like Sonny Liston. But William X did not like Sonny Liston, but it stood for people. I don't think it. William X should be a recurring dad on the show. No, we can't do. Let's not do that. William X not approving of Denzel and Julia Roberts' relationship with Belkin Breaks. No sir. I won't have it. We know. I had this in Nipix. The movie avoids the Muslim Stod Angelo Dundee, Dr. The Gloves, because he was trying to tank the fight for Ali, and it's like a big part of the lore of that fight. Yeah. So that's our coming to the corner. Because they're like, I'm not an angel boxing guy. So I didn't know about that. That's fascinating. Yeah. That's a real thing. I don't know why that wasn't in the movie. Because they took a moment in the film to show Dundee putting like shit in his pockets and then he's, he puts pills in his pockets, right? Yeah. And then he's like getting all of his stuff together and I was like, oh, this is cool. This is just Michael Mann doing like, look at this master of his craft. I wasn't sure that I read about like, there are all these like allegations both ways. It's amazing that he was blind for one of the six rounds and one of the fans. And then if you watch it, like the six round list and quits after the six, like he kills listening to the six round, he really fucks him up. Malcolm in the hotel room with Ali, that camera angle of being people with Ali behind them. Yeah. Just kind of staring out. And it's a long scene too. That's great. Charlie is back on Malcolm in Africa. Obviously not rewatchable for the typical reasons, but I thought the scene when Malcolm gets murdered and then Ali and the car is just really great. That's awesome. It's really good for me. That I believe is. Chauncey Eskirj was on the phone and was taught because like that, yeah, it's an amazing sequence. The second list in fight. It's because the Jada Pinkett's performance in the stance, yeah, Koso, they're coming after you. Well, coward. Ali in the phone. Yeah, I know. I'm his. - V, when he does the "Viacong" thing. And then, how are Bing? I'm like, you know what you just did? Wilson is best seen in the movie when he comes out of the courtroom and he's like, you're my oppressors and he does that 45 second. You my enemy, not no Chinese, no Viacong, no Japanese. You're my opposer when I went freedom and does that whole, I think that's his best scene in the movie, leading into the Tarelian and all that stuff. Do you like this scene when Ali and Bundating when he sells the belt? - I love it. My two favorite scenes in the movie. That one, and for some reason, Ali watching, forming knockout Joe Frazier. That's just such a real fucking scene to where you feel like you got everything lined up. - Right. - And then all of a sudden, that scene, another boxing thing, if you wanna see the greatest destruction ever, go watch of a great champion, go watch the way, I know you guys have seen it, you guys are sports fans, have forming destroyed fucking Joe Frazier. - Down goes Frazier. - It's just like a child, but I like. - It's cool how they're all sitting on the couch and they're like, this isn't good. - This is not a big deal. It's like, what the fuck? This guy's announcing himself. But the Bundating scene is particularly moving to me. Ali goes on wide road of sports, right into Frazier, takes Ali for a ride. You be quiet, I'm gonna get in the ring, I'm gonna get gas. - I thought James Tony's good, and that's him. - James Tony's just good. - Yeah, yeah. - Coastel tells Ali he won the trial. Ali loses to Frazier, move, Lix. And it's like, okay, hook coming. I like how they did that, but they get out of that fight fast. Ali, Bumei running through the streets, and then Ali, Farman heading into the eighth round when the ring girl winks at him and he winks back and then leading to him kinda, all right, now I'm gonna go and he gets Farman, which is still, that had to have been the most thrilling moment you could possibly have if you loved a team or an athlete when he actually beats Farman and the eighth round. That has to be number one. What do you guys think of the boxing in this film? I like it. - I like it too. - I think he took a more deliberate approach to it. Like, some boxing is about movement. Some boxing is about, some boxing. I'm talking about when I'm talking about boxing in movies. Some of it's about movement. Some of it was about thuds. Like, he wanted you to feel the thuds. You couldn't really approximate the speed of a prime Muhammad Ali. - He would almost have to do CGI stuff. - Right, but like, as far as the movement and the actual impact, I thought they did a good job. And the guys, unlike other movies, they look like him. - Yeah, they are fighting and they do. - And they're hitting each other. - Yeah. - I thought the Farman fight specifically was really, really, really close to the actual fight. The way he's leaning back, the way Farman was just, I thought Farman was pounding him. It felt like, what was taking a lot of those shots? What do you think? - It's just interesting because I look at it from a purely cinematic. It sometimes is a little bit. The fights in this movie lack a little bit of the stylistic diversity. I think Raging Bull has. Like, Raging Bull, he's shot each fight in this different kind of way. And I feel like he's shot to my eye. He shot these fights in a very similar fashion, the entire, like-- - Well, he was trying to be exactly like the actual fight. - Yes. And I think, but I guess I prefer ultimately, Scorsese trying to reinvent the experience of looking at a life magazine photograph, rather than like, perfectly like-- - The Farman actor took that punch. - Yeah. I will say the whole face shake. - I will say that those two fighters are also different. With Jake Lamatta, you have to capture brutality, which that movie captures the brutality of who Jake Lamatta was. With Ali, obviously, he was a very dangerous fighter, but there's an elegance to it. Like, there are times where he's delivering performance inside of the air. And that's what's so good about the final fight in this movie is a smart decision to end the movie with that fight, 'cause it's Ali at the peak of his performance. - Yep. - Not as a fighter, athletically, he had been, but how he could be theatrically inside of the ring and outside of the ring. - What's your favorite boxing in a movie? Not necessarily boxing movie, but the bot, like, fighting in a movie. - It's such a stupid answer. It's a really stupid answer, digs town. - It's not that answer. It's not a very serious movie, but for me-- - It's a good one though. - It's like a digs town. - I like digs town. - I think the first Creed fight, the actual fight. - Tell me about it, Mexico? - No, not Mexico, the one saying whatever that one. - I forget who he fights when that first round, when it's like the entire world. - Wait, that's what you wanna fight and Creed? - That's what I'm saying in Mexico. The one in Mexico? The first time you see a daughter's Creed fight period. - No, the next time. - He's creed by this boy. - When he's alone is in his corner. - Oh, okay. - Yes. - I thought they did a really good job with that. - Mexico boxer. - Well, and also that it was one shot for like three straight minutes. I thought that's probably the best thing, I've seen. - What was your favorite scene, Craig? - I really liked all the co-sell comedy stuff. I found that to be really fascinating. Mainly also probably just because I can't believe that's something that was happening culturally, and that's something that would never happen now. Those type of conversations on air like that. And like their interaction. And like even, I was watching old videos of Ali talking to Dick Cavitt. And I was just like, man, this is crazy. Like the type of conversations that they're having is just not really what you get. - The closest thing we had was Bill and KD. That's right. - Yeah, I told you. A long time ago, man. - I remember it was the second Ali Frazier after the fight in Web Road of Sports. And Ali started makeup front of Frazier that he went to the hospital and they got in the actual fight in Web Road of Sports. I think it was the second fight. - I think it's obviously the first 10 minutes. - Yeah, it's got in the first 10 minutes. - You can even say the first 24 minutes. The only thing that like approaches that for me is the Zaire arrival, like the Kanchasa arrival or that. - Yeah, that's awesome. - Or running through Kanchasa. - Yeah. - Also like the fact that it rained right after he'd not form it out, which is something to happen in real life, is one of the craziest things that's happened in the sporting event. - My dad always said, God, what am I going to finish? - Like two minutes after the knockout. - Yeah. - Pouring hurricane rain. - Yeah. - I believe it would have been-- - Like you can't make that shit up. - Would have been like a terribly hot day in the whole night. It was like, what's the most 2001 thing about this movie CR? - I guess I just had Will Smith critical and commercial sensation. - What do you have? - Kind of the same. But I will say, the cast itself is this mixture. Oh shit, he's got something's brewing. The cast itself is this mixture of like ascending people. - Yeah. - Like Jamie and some of these other people, but also like staples of people. The ascending people are Jeffrey Wright and Jamie and all of this stuff. And then you had your older guard and well, just that's a very 2001 cast. What are you about to say? - Including Ron Silver. Is he the most 2001 thing? - No, but I did the junket. It was the only time I'd ever been a movie junket and I had 10 minutes with Ron Silver and I immediately went into Silent Ridge. Got him excited about Silent Ridge. I was like, I'm a huge Silent Ridge guy and he's like, the killer wouldn't die. And he was all excited and we talked about it. - What was the movie that he was in with Jamie Lee Curtis? - Blue Steel. - Blue Steel. - It's a good movie. - Yeah. - The Toobie Classic, where he was like a killer or blue steel at the crank that went up on that. - That's kind of a big one, wasn't it? - Yeah, yeah, it's a blue steel. - It was made the Toobie All Stars last year. My most 2001 thing. Will and Janet, young love. Real chemistry. - Yeah, yeah. - Great to see them happy. Really believed in those two. Some good things ahead. - They're still together. - The Floyd Gundalli butter on my ass and Lollipop's about the word for something I just enjoy. What do you have, Van? - I like whenever actors take on athletic roles and they commit to it. There's nothing that I hate more than some half ass actor trying to play basketball. But whenever they really commit to it. - Or fact, they been doing Legend of Backer Vance and doing two weeks ago for some time. - When they bullshit about it, I don't like it. But when they really commit to it and bring that to it, I always find myself in it. - C-R, Cosell's voice. - And I just miss the Pat Summeral, Keith Jackson, that era Bob Cone. - I'm even caught through Costis. - She just doesn't like-- - She just doesn't sweat in answers. - No, I didn't say that. I just missed guys who tried to capture the poetry of a moment rather than just be like, welcome to the fucking, - Sh*t, sh*t, sh*t, sh*t, sh*t, sh*t, sh*t, sh*t, sh*t, sh*t, sh*t. - No. - Who's left? Bob Costis, Brin, Brin. Brin's not like that. Joe Buc, no. Now there's nobody left. Nobody's left. Those guys are all going. - There's nobody who can levitate. - Nance. Nance a little bit. Yeah. - But Nance. - Who can levitate about the event with some monologue for three minutes. - Like Vince Gullier or a little guy. - I was gonna say it's easy to do it on the masters. - What even college basketball dance had it? - Yeah. - It's what Tom Rinaldi tries to do. - Um, my flake gondale. Goddamn. The uh-oh, I got my bell-run slow motion moment in every box of movie where it's like And they do like the weird and it's like I always like that. It's like oh he got fucked up. Have you ever actually had your bell-run? Not by a punch what happened? I've hit my head a couple times where I'm like fuck or yeah, I got elbowed and basketball once. Oh, that's a good one I hit my head in the attic where I didn't realize the doorway was low, and I just got clocked. Yeah, like fell to the ground clock What stage is the best Mentioned any moment with Jean-Clarilo Espicito and JB Fox together that you should have been on the duet it seems James Tony acting I love foreman the actor playing foreman just hitting the heavy bag in that scene. She's like And man just stays with it for like 10 seconds. Yeah No lines for Paul Rodriguez, and then Jim Gray and Bill Pashky being in scenes. Yeah, Bill Pashky is a line He's to ask a question, right? Yes, too, doesn't he? Yeah, Jim Gray is just smiling like a maniac for some reason. What do you have? I have the champ is here as a rap sample. Yeah, I have Smith's fighting ability you are never like he's not fighting or they're about to double in or anything like that I talked about this, but the low key the fact that it's a low key Malcolm X movie for an hour Yeah, what's mine? Since then they've put Muhammad Ali on in a bunch of different shows and stuff like and there's another one coming out They're doing the greatest and so like just Muhammad Ali as a cultural figure that they want to put on a narrative. Yeah, it has exploded after this Hmm, I will also say that However, I don't know I don't know anything about like what I guess I'm like the guy was singing because it's not same cook Exactly. He's not lip-syncing Sam Cook's voice, but it's a very good Approximation of Sam cook and that is on the live record the call and response that goes on is exactly how it is on the live record and It's fucking amazing to watch a bunch of other stuff happening while Sam Cook is playing. Yeah It was just that that whole sequence is just so brilliant I'm just a planet. I thought van was gonna have a what stage the best hair. And I'm sad. I'm gonna have to do it. Okay A bunch of beautiful black women in the story then William X is back. William X is here Even in the Apollo scene, there's like good ones in the crowd. It's just like Michael Mann Michael Mann was happening to something You should go back to writing and it should be the from the author of the book of basketball He's changed his name to the X and it's the book of black women. The book of black one. Oh my god. Good one's the very next here's my prologue about Jane Candidate. See, that's a good one. It's a good one. Very important person very important person. This is what you know I will say this though is that like for me personally if we get into this There's an era of fine That that this movie represents and it is harkening back to in the 60s that a lot of people wish was still around Everybody look good. I'm not coming down on no one. I got to lose weight. So don't come for me. Right every light everybody looks good. Oh you're saying There's an I need you to find a static all of these women look different. They don't have the same body They're petite women they're tall women that women are all different Complexions it doesn't seem like this assembly line of beauty that we've seen now and that's kind of how the 90s were That's a chapter for William X's book Me and Thelma from good times. Who's that on the left? Remember you lying. Yeah, it's me and remember met Thelma. That's remember right there Yeah, we're blind. That's remember. Yeah, I think he and I remember it right now. Okay That looks nothing like the rib that I'm we were so excited about that's my news All right, what's our next category? Yeah, we're really excited to meet Thelma like really We were like star struck The fight scenes one last thing for what stage the best the only limitation placed on the fighters They could hit Smith as hard as they could as long as they didn't knock them out So it's why a lot of it is like shoulders body like nobody's like head hunting with them But they're also like if they have or shooting other stuff you can't have like black eyes Yeah, that's and then they had Angelo helping out we'll take one more break and then we'll do the rest of the categories See how what you got for great check or so there's a ton in this But my favorite is in that opening sequence when he's training his clay and he's on the speed bag The cameras behind the speed bag and the way that he is punching it creates the illusion that he's almost on a film strip And it's being hit in time with the music But it almost feels like you're watching like an old film strip because of the way The bag is affecting like the way the camera is and it that's a good one. I'm just like dude I love in that open that extended opening scene how fast they're walking when they're coming around the ramp Mm-hmm, and it's everybody in concert almost like they're I don't know how you're going into the press conference with like real speed and purpose It's just really cool and all these entrants for the format fights good when the cameras behind them And he comes out and he doesn't kind of realize how many people are there and he's kind of like holy shit And the camera comes around and catches it, which I think was actually Will Smith's reaction because I don't think he had seen it So he's kind of like Jesus. Yeah, there's also like a the Way that it like it'll be that the screen's completely dark when he gets off the plane in Zaire and it goes out And then the running in Zaire where it like is like basically somehow above him Yeah, and then comes in behind him That's my favorite shot the running inside he just the It goes from being this is this full world that he hasn't explored yet To this is a guy who can fill up any world like once he gets there. Yeah, so the camera the camera like tells you that the camera goes Oh my god, this is a guy It's a big place. He doesn't know where he's at but a little lot, but this is Muhammad Ali So it's just like a matter of time before this world becomes his Denathives Benny Han on word Zaire up this thing for sure you guys are Kid cutting pursuit of happiness. That's the opening Sam cook was there a better title for this movie You floated one or did you float one? Yeah, would you say what was yours? You said you said one of you guys the awakening of Ali or the political education and the political Awakening like yeah, the education of Muhammad Ali the redemption of Muhammad Ali Like if you just wanted to do a boxing movie. I'd call it the champs here. Yeah, like I mean The champ is here. The champ is here. It's not bad. What do you think of that one Craig? I like it Ollie should have fucking sold itself like Ollie. I'll be like yeah, I know what I know what movie I'm gonna have to go with Ollie Yeah, but yeah, I think now would probably be Ollie Cole and the champ is here the way they name movies now Cassie X in game, uh, what's your flex? The Todd Parker award for best character entrance goes to Jamie Foxx as Bundini Brown I'm called bun Dini rhymes with who Dini he was a Jew too some people call me fast black some people call me daddy Mac and then the show where he's just like call him shorty cuz he likes him circumcised like This movie introduces Foxx. I know he's only in like 16s or seven scenes or whatever But man like when Michael man introduces Jamie Foxx, he's like that's the star like and I'm telling you the reason why I think He introduces him that way is because he's really Introducing Muhammad Ali's Performance persona to the audience That's what these characters are all yeah like I like Malcolm X is his political stuff This is the making of this guy and then when Jamie Foxx comes in the reason why cuz even when you watch it You go like this guy's not in the movie at all when they go into the press conference They're saying the lines together. Right. Yeah, he's introducing you to that part of them because the first thing we see from him is the the immatil stuff The work ethic you see the building of a champion and Angelo is running everything and Angelo's running everything and then when Bundini comes in It's like oh my god. This is how this is what took for this guy to be to become our lead. I like how he Just talks during between rounds as Dundee's talking Yeah, cuz that's what if you watch the fights. He's just fucking yapping. He's doing a podcast as Dundee's like hey watch the rate Bundini's just done the side going nuts. I can touch you chip. You're the best Butch's girlfriend weak link of the film. We mentioned this. This has to be the answer though. We just jump three years We miss so much. You have a different one. What do you got the original music? I do not think this is the right score for this movie. Oh, you have had so it's peer-bork and Lisa Derardi did the insider music And the really works for the insider, but I think they should have either had an orchestral score or they should have had like a jazz score Like they're they does not feel Appropriate it takes you out of the time zone the time period Mm-hmm, and I think it would have just been benefited if they had like a really good Terrence Blanchard style jazz orchestral score. Um, I had something different, but it was also in the actual creative Michael man's grainy digital type of look yeah works it's a love it in collateral obviously love it in in this one it doesn't I don't know if it works for period in this one it parts of it didn't feel like when you're in 1968 yeah yeah it part sometimes it would just take you out of it a little bit I think that the trade-off is that the like Kinshasa just is a different situation if you're there with like a bunch of lights you know like a lot of and I don't you know he he will make a movie with a ton of stakes and a ton on the line and he will be like but the camera is on the tip of this pen and I'm going to shove it in between these two guys while they're fighting right it's he's a he's a risk taker yeah but like you know if this movie had the to you the orchestral and for me the visual sweeping scale of last time oh he can maybe it lands with people differently I threw this in the Sasha Jenkins award even though it's Sasha Jensen for actor you can't believe didn't become a bigger star uh no gay I don't know I don't know why she she feels like she could have gone pound for pound with all the other ones from that era right yeah yeah I mean she I think she's really good in this movie she's good never beautiful I mean I am Michael T for this this that's another one where I'm just like why wasn't he a bigger star hey guys is it possible that there's a little boy forces well let me get where you're next Vannex is there possible there there wasn't a climate in the town that could have as many roles for these people as what they needed to explore all of their but Michael Michelle was on ER she was on ER I mean look when when the movie came out no the gay was on uh no the gay was in crash no the gay was in the matrix sequel so is it possible that they're just not enough roles for all the very past performers yeah Marvin Gaye's daughter another special category how would Vannex and get out of this one which one well your enzyme and you just started dating a new girl and your wife said she was going back to Chicago to take care of your sick child but now she's back in your room she's like do you love this new woman and she's upset about your new girl and you're about to have a fight in two weeks so what do you tell your wife do I love her uh yeah I love her and let me tell you why I love her because I have to love her because the CIA is watching me and by the way you know the CIA is watching me you know I'm being watched by the CIA the presses on my back everyone's on my back all right I'm being surveilled I got a lot of pressure you know what pressure I don't need I don't need the pressure of you like this biggest fight in my entire life why are you doing this to me right now like and nothing happened look at that woman that's way too light skin for me that's not how I even like I'm like you right but the reality is you're here now now I gotta think about this I go out there and be killed have you seen this guy hit the heavy back let's go you know what don't even worry about this we gonna go watch this guy hit the heavy back and then after we watch this guy hit the heavy bag you then can make your mind up about whether or not you want to put this in my on my on my mind right now because I can be killed then what you're killing me right now just by bringing this up to me yeah a much shorter version of this would be what is Evoli just did Vincent from heat and was like you knew when we hooked up baby that you gonna have to share me when all the people they shouldn't know that in uh what stage of worst will and Jada the romance maybe we still got a lot of runway we have a lot of runway and by the way like it's a long life they they they it's it's working for them they still got a family you know it's working for them uh I didn't really have any other what says the worst that we did on the original soundtrack there is a ton of our Kelly oh it's he's in this one oh he's in the greatest the greatest is he the movie plays in the movie I thought you out one of y'all was going to use as a needle drop that's why I'm waiting that's Bill's last sack Bill's last sack where am I going Bill's Bill's William x william x's last sack is guys I was hanging out with some people this weekend our Kelly I'm back in on them that sure why would I be hanging out with our Kelly in this scenario you not hanging out with our Kelly I'm just listening to his music listen to his music I'm back in on our Kelly that's your last sack and then we'll know that it's over when you do that but that's not about that said I never really liked our Kelly's music ever never ever it was never a huge fan what's your favorite R&B not our Kelly but just tell me though it's a Bill's Bill's R&B party what's that Bill's R&B party give me like three songs I know Sean shit Sean shit I'm gonna shoot I know it was never like a huge R&B guy though oh so you don't like it you don't like our music oh it's like that early 90s was my era for it right in the Keith sweat see the vandros see why you you second guessing yourself but you don't take it from yourself I'm just saying like I never in the 2000's no forget it the 90s is where you want to be okay one like make it last forever make it last I really did love Keith sweat right yeah but that's the but you know the 2000s is not when the R&B the 90s is the heyday of the R&B yeah it's new jack swing and new jack swing you know I need a baker I put it's the third now let me tell you something I don't know if you know this but these are out these are out like sex music songs there you go yeah that's how you do it Alex likes to get down or William X that's screwed up the show okay and the other one says the worst thing I know the kids when they watch his movie when he's talking to know the gay's character there's a conversation that they have where she talks about how he came to her school yeah that's tough uh and he remembers her and there she was like she was 11 years old he had a she had a brain on I called you little Indian girl it's a type of she told you when I came to your school baby Craig what do you got for flex I'm acknowledging that John Void is very famous and successful as an actor and the whole thing but for my millennial experience with John Void it's it's not great I want to give him the bam out of bio 83 point I did not know this was John Void until I saw the credits wow because I try to not look up a lot I just watched the movie credits roll John Void Howard Coastel blown away to me like that was coach Kilmer that's my guy mr. sir you know from holes that's national treasure guy and to see him as Howard Coastel crushing it unrecognizable I thought he was fantastic he's a phenomenal actor whatever he thinks about anything else is his fucking business but when he gets the front I can't even get I'm just saying like I'm not gonna hold that that is what it is but he can get busy like he really can he's good at the greatest grandfather yeah um the CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been harrowed support how to take a word uh this isn't really a hot take I think that there is a version of this film that could have been made and I think Michael man would have made an incredible film out of this that's just the chancey escarge story that's like pre phenomenal now I don't want it as an alternative to Ali but the idea that a guy was Martin Martin Luther King and Muhammad Ali's lawyer at the same time is fucking incredible and I can't believe we don't have a film about that and a film about that guy is pretty wild what do you have this I said already that wills will acts better when he doesn't speak in the movie and that's like really tough to do but he is a great performance but a fantastic performance when there's no dialogue mine is uh I think there's the greatest sports movie about time in here with a different angle which is basically Ali and Frazier and doing it that way um and I would dump all the other stuff even though I like it in this movie I would I don't care about would you make Paulie I don't care about Malcolm X I'm just doing him versus Frazier I don't care about Malcolm X I'm I'm saying for this movie are you doing basically Ali Frazier is at its heat um it's these two guys it's Ali and Frazier and it's their three fights and it's the whole trilogy that's it okay that's my movie okay but look at it's it's about like it's Frazier coming up and then it's all in the title and I and I'm not in with Islam in the 64 I'm like starting around 68 there's okay wait so are you doing co-leads in this movie yeah that's the only thing that's why it didn't happen you're gonna have the silly biopic you're gonna have to sell Joe Frazier to people for boxing people Joe Frazier is an incredible do you think Michael T Williamson could have done Joe Frazier probably I had a I had a turn at at some point in my life where I actually became team Joe Frazier because of I just thought he was putting such a horrible spot with the Ali stuff I feel like he became the sympathetic figure eventually it took me I don't think I was in till my mid 30s until I really fully saw so Brian Gumball had this same thing Brian Gumball actually wrote this article back in the day I remember oh yeah yeah oh you talked do you so you you that's in when we were kids so Brian Gumball had to say what what growing up to me is understanding like when you when you listen to Marvish Frazier talk about like going to school and everybody's making fun of him at school because Ali says your dad is an uncle Tom when really this guy was not an uncle Tom well he caught him gorilla like yeah all really bad stuff but growing up is realizing that you're you know that's that about your heroes and that they could Once again, the bio peak is, what did it cost you? What are the skeletons? That's what I, you know, and Joe Frazier knows. - It's basically the Ghost of Manoeu book that Mark Kramer wrote. There was a Frazier documentary too, Frazier Ali, that's tilted more toward Frazier that's good. But I just think they're dynamic. And then Ali, to him, it was all about selling the fight, not realizing the cost that was doing the Frazier. To me, it's a more interesting movie. - There is a, so I read an article back in the day about how Joe Frazier carried this his entire life, right? - It's so bitter about his entire life. And this actually spilled over into Joe Frazier a lot of times being way less than sensitive about Ali's Parkinson's later on in his life. He was kind of a joke over that. - Yeah, he's like, I'm, I still have my faculties and he could tell who won those fights. - Yeah, who actually won those fights. So there is, they were at an event together. And because the articles talking about how Joe Frazier need to let it go, they were at an event together. And they were like, "Yo, you guys should hit the heavy bag." And Joe Frazier goes, "I'll hit it." And Joe Frazier, who was still in control of all of his shit, gets up there and starts wailing on the heavy bag, you know? This is like in the 80s, so he's probably like in his 50s or something like that. He hasn't lost any of the time, any of the power. He does all that stuff. And he comes back feeling like I finally fucked over this guy, right? Ali walks up to the heavy bag and goes, "Pu!" Did you guys see that? And the whole room starts laughing. And he made a fool out of him again. And they were just like, "Joe, just give it up." He just couldn't get around him. - Casting what ifs couldn't find any except for Will Smith turned down Ali and then Ali called Will Smith and asked him to do it. And at that point, you can't say no to Ali. And that was that. What type of shit do we'll be on? - I don't know. - But no, I think it's justifiable that it's too intimidating for real. - Like what are you going to do? - You're playing the bus. - I don't know if he wants to do the wick. - You only like one man, you gotta try it. - Well, he needed to get there. - Yeah. - Hey, he's like, "No, I gotta do Iroba." - Seriously, that's probably what he's like. - I mean, that's not it. - Hold on, I got into backroba. - Do you think, do you play out in your head Denzel doing this? - As Muhammad Ali? - I don't think it works. - I don't think it works either. - I don't think he's big enough either. - He's not big enough. - But Will Smith is like, "Six three." That was part of it. - He's perfect. - He looks like a heavyweight. - Yeah, yeah. - Best that guy word. It's all graduated that guy's as pretty much mentioned. - Yeah. - It's not very, very strong. - I think Barry was the one who gets it. - But he's a Michael Mann, that guy. - DM Waiters. Don King, Joe Frazier, or Veronica. - Is Jamie eligible? No. - No. - Too much? - Too much. - Or Veronica Portia. - I think you gotta go, I go Michael T. I go, I go, I go, that's it as well. - Recasting couch director, city. - Slight case for James Tony. Just put it out there. - I had him on the West. - Yeah. - Spike Lee. - We can talk it out. We can talk Oliver Stone out. - I'm glad it played out the way it did with Michael Mann. 'Cause I don't think there was any way to make this movie perfect. So you might as well make it stylistically incredible. And again, like, when did he make Malcolm X? It was like 92? - 91 and 92. - So if you're doing this version of the movie, I don't know how he just was like, yeah, I'm gonna run back my Malcolm X stuff. Like I don't know. - I think he would have made a different film. - He probably would have not had that stuff in it all, right? - I think it would have been a really awesome movie. But I don't like, I accept and like this movie the way it is. - Half that's in research. Will Smith was a Paul Bear at Ollie's funeral. Will Smith and Michael Mann put up their salaries that the movie went over budget? - Yeah, 'cause Will Smith has come off wild, wild west. So like, there was some money stuff. - Smith didn't want to meet Ollie for months. And then seven months in the filming, Ollie came to the set and Smith did his whole trash talk, Ollie, think, for 15 minutes. And Ollie was impressed and turned to Howard Bingham and said, how come you didn't tell me I was so crazy? - He imagined doing Ollie for the guy, bruh, the man. - Oh, you know what, we for Dion, John Carlo, I think Esposito would count for Dion, wouldn't it? - Yeah, he's in four scenes. - He's in my flex category. - Okay. What's your flex category, let's hear it. - The David Caruso Stuff of Legends Award for character who definitely should have been spun off into their own sequel. I would love to see a movie with Jane Carlo as Ollie's dad. It's him watching all of this crazy ass shit happen to his son. I love that character. - That character reminded me so much of my dad. That character, he think about it. That character's going from watching his son be the best amateur heavyweight to getting it. Then his son joins the nation of his long change his name. He got to tell his name. - Yeah. - So he's done all of this work. And now his name, Cash's Clay, is going to be everywhere. Except it's not, it's not going to be everywhere. A new name will be everywhere. His son marries the woman, loves the woman. He meets Bundini Brown. I think it would have been a really fucking interesting. - It was awesome. There's so many characters in this movie that you could make a Howard Benga movie. You could make-- - A Bundini Brown movie. - You could make a Bundini movie. You could make a Castell movie. You could make a Don King movie. I mean, Frazier. - But the more I saw Jane Carlo on screen, the more I wanted to see it. - Yeah. - Apex Bound. - Oh, I got one more half that's in his net research. The guy, there's an after name Albert Hall in this movie. - Yeah. He plays Elijah Muhammad in this, but in Malcolm X. - Yeah. - In Malcolm X, he plays a character named Baines, who is a fictitious character that was there to sort of be like-- - He leads on a Malcolm-- - Malcolm in his prison conversion, right? - Right. And he introduces Malcolm to Elijah Muhammad. In this movie, he plays Elijah Muhammad. He is also the boat commander in the apocalypse now. - The apocalypse now. - I had some notes on his living room. I thought we could have needed more furniture. - Oh, yeah, William. - Yeah. - You could say that to the-- - William X. - And he could put his iron for the-- - Two more chairs in there. - Yeah. - What was the last time we read The Way of Superior Man? - Pretty big. - Messed with a black man. - Apex Bound. Will Smith. - Where? - He's taken an L though. He's coming off of LOS. So he is like, he's wobbling. - So if not this, what's his Apex then? - I think it's the-- - Independent state man. - Independent state. We litigated this when we did "Animate the State" I think. It's in the late '90s. - After this, he does the series of like sequels and stuff. Like-- - Yeah. - I can make an argument. - He goes, "Fresh Prince Independence Day Men in Black." - That's tough to beat. I make an argument that Will Smith, Will Smith at the absolute peak of his powers is Hitch. - Of five. - Absolute peak of his powers. Hitch is a movie that legitimately-- - Everything else that we're talking about all that stuff, those movies have conceits, big aliens, all that type of shit. "Fresh Prince" is very close to what I'm talking about. Hitch is Will Smith directly demonstrating what a devastating movie he, a movie star he is. He charms us through the entire movie and makes it into a really, really good film. - It's on the rewatch, but let's see. - Fox, no. Ollie movies, yes. The Jada Will relationship, probably. James Tony, still fighting. And he's in Ollie. - Yeah, maybe, yeah. - I think it's 90s for James Day. - He was like the undisputed Super Middleweight Champion on the world. - Don King impersonations in a movie? - Yes. - Cosell impersonations, yes. - Yes. - Fox and movies, no. - Apex Mountain for Cosell and Don King. - Oh. - Don King, Ving Rames, do you remember that one? What was, what was he? - Ving Rames did the Don King movie. - Oh, that's on showtime, right? - Yeah, yeah. - Or HBO. - And one of those, yeah. - It was a lot more. - Yeah, that's good. - The devil is a motherfucker. - Michael Mann. - No, it's the insider. - I think that this is, like I said, this is the end. You call it, we call it Apex Mountain. You can call it the imperial phase, which is like a pot music term, but they're both like at peak of their powers, per se. But I don't think this is Apex Mountain. - I think it's insider. - Insider was kind of a fox office disappointment though. - No, but it got Oscars, and it leads to like, I'm gonna spend 110 million on my Ali movie and they're like, go ahead, Michael Mann. - Right. - Yeah, I think that run is the Apex, and it might be anybody's Apex, maybe like Spielberg. Do you need, it's not too many guys that have them back to back like that. - Best name for a resource. Ali Bume. - It's pretty good. - Who am I? - Bandini. - Bandini's name. - Cruiser Hanks. - Who would you want to see play Ali CR? - Is it in Blackface or is it. - Oh, let's just make up. William Hanks, get your guy. - I had Hanks as Cousel. - Okay. - I mean, you'd have to. - Is that the only way, so that. - Cruiser to have any play. - Cruiser is the angel of that name. - Come on, Danny. - Come on, Danny. - Can I run with you? What do you have, Craig? - Stuff heard. - Hanks as Cousel. What options do we have? - That'll add Bob and Aaron. - Scorsese or Spielberg, bringing it back for this one. Scorsese. - Scorsese. - Okay. - Picking nets. We mentioned a few. a big one for me, they show the LS quarry fight and then Ali goes and meets Joe Morton in the diner. And then three weeks later MLK gets killed. The quarry fight, LS quarry happens three weeks after MLK got killed. They fucked up the scenes. I was also wondering, do you think that Ali found out he won the Supreme Court case from Howard Kosell, is that true? And sitting at just a table, I don't think that was true. I think they probably took some liberties. When Joe Frazier asked Ali if he needed any money, Ali took the money in real life. Yeah. That's even was true. Really. Yeah. Ali was broke. Yeah. He ran out of money. And Joe will bring it up, which is you shouldn't do, by the way. We mentioned the dates that this movie desperately needed dates. And then it's a hardcore Ali nitpick, but he's speaking differently by the time we're in Zaire. Oh, he's a little slower. Yeah, he's not. It's not as bad as after Manila, but it's definitely like the guy in the 60s is you start to watch flying. Yeah. He's a little, you know, it's just it's slowing down a little bit and that they didn't he just seems the same throughout the movie. Actually, the slowing down becomes a part of it too. They're two very distinct Ali's. There's a super fast talking Ali. And then there's a slower talking Ali, which is where we are. Yeah. I remember any other nitpicks. No. Sequel prequel prestige to be all black cast are untouchable. Prestige TV would have been dead like a hundred and fifty million dollars for ten hour. That's it. The greatest is. Yeah. That's what it is. Yeah. It's a prestige. It's a, it's an Amazon joint. Michael B Jordan and them are doing. Yeah. Who's playing Ali? I can't remember. But I know that my man, Aiman from Snowfall, is playing Sunny Listed. Okay. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Fervi the Flores, Zayn Low, Robert Evans, Dr. Charles Nichols or someone else here. Obviously Fox is incredible, but have you guys thought about Pete Possilwe as Bundini Brown? No, I have not. No, I'm Jewish. And he's Muslim. And because of that, he tells me I need to give up certain things like pork and white women. I can give up pork, but white women, not after a little taste. I had Ted Levine as the FBI agent, but as Buffalo, but as yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We heard a film. You're a big fat person. Just one Oscar, who gets it? Interesting category. Fox. I go with Jamie. It's Fox. Do you have Fox or boy? Oh, I'm going boy. Okay. That's, that's Ali and the, and the guy named Jalen best. Okay. Probably an answer for questions. I only had one. Why didn't more boxers try Sunny Liston's Dr. Gloves trick? Of course, they tried to show this seems like a great idea for evil boxers. And did Sunny Liston throw the second flight? I mean, almost definitely. Fan of punch. It depends on which law you believe you believe the Lord of Ali was so quick, he could land a right that the camera couldn't even catch. No, it's obviously not. Probably the most crooked boxer of the last 75 years. The law about the fact that the mafia owns Sunny Liston. I say, I made him take a thought. Also, like if you watch it, there's a moment when he's down, when he tries to get up and he does like this, almost like pro wrestling and falls back down. It's really bad. I always thought he threw it. You think he threw it, right? Yeah, probably. The memorabilia you'd most want from this movie. The one of the toughest ones we've ever had to do for me. Um, the, uh, the hand tape that the ref signs to be like, I've checked, you know, in the beginning. That's awesome. Yeah. I don't know what I would do with used hand tape, but still cool. I have the movie robe from the first Liston's fight, Liston fight where you can see it says the lip on the back, that he, they try to get him going as the lip. They go, because guess what, guess who you need a name? Ali, just come the greatest. I want you to, I like to always like those old vintage gloves. So either the gloves use that will smith you. By the way, with the fight scenes, they tried all kinds of stuff with gloves to make it so they would look more realistic and nothing worked like big, bigger, softer gloves. So it could really in nothing, nothing worked. Coach Finstack, Mr. McGee wore a best worst life lesson. Dude, free A and E Z free is real and real is a motherfucker. Yep. Okay. Best of future choice. I have one we were Kings. Welcome X. I have Malcolm X. Okay. Chris X. Tough one. Who won the movie? I'm the same Michael man, because that's why I watched the movie. Now, I would say that, but I do think that his visual style, while I fans points really well taken about whether it works for period. I think his visual style is the reason I returned to this film. All I know is you can't necessarily say that will one movie. I think actually this is one of the rare situations where wills kind of out. And after that, you did get nominated for the first time. You get nominated for the first time. You do get nominated for the first time. I personally want to watch this stupid. I kind of think Jamie Foxx won the movie. I think as like a blueprint or and using it as like, yeah, I think Jamie Foxx. And obviously man is like, that's my fucking guy. Yeah. That makes sense. I have Will Smith in the moment and then over the years, Michael man, because I think he's the reason to keep coming back to this. Even though it's a pretty, you know, it's a biopic. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I'll be watching the Freddie Mercury biopic 25 years from now, but this keeps sucking me in. No, Freddie Mercury biopic has some good scenes in it. What's going to be the next thing for Freddie Mercury? Well, I enjoy it. Oh, okay. Yeah. Freddie's music. Yeah. Will you next contains so many different Craig, you never saw this movie. No. You blanched at the time. You were scared. It really was long. It's like a fucking football. Yeah. But once you get eight, once he gets rolling, you're like, all right. I thought the acting across the board in this movie was superb. Like I thought everybody was just fantastic. I thought there were a lot of shit. Like Zaire was amazing. The coastal stuff. I thought was great. The Malcolm X stuff. I thought it was great. I don't know. It's probably a generational thing, but I felt just like kind of disconnected to this movie. I don't know why. I just felt like something was missing out of this movie. And I don't know what it was. I think I struggled with. I couldn't really feel the weight of all these talent as a boxer in this movie. Like to be honest, I wasn't like this guy is an amazing boxer watching the movie. Like I just know it's funny about that. That's the one thing that the movie being made for us that you don't have to convince us of. Right. And I, you know, other than like clips here and there, I don't really know. Like I was kind of bummed that we didn't really get a lot of the feet stuff, which I understand Will Smith can't do. But the movie magic of trying to really make maybe I'm just like rocky and creed brained or I like a little bit more of the theatrical boxing style. Well, like when the movie ended, I was kind of like, I don't know. I was like, I don't exactly know what my takeaway is supposed to be or what the point of view is supposed to be from this movie. But I enjoyed it. Maybe it's about too many different things. Maybe it could be. Maybe the movie is a little bit about political stuff, a little bit about personal stuff. I didn't see that much about boxing to be when the movie ended at boxing. I was like, Oh, okay. Do you think whatever gets to the point where we can just CGI the actors face over the actual boxing footage for a boxing movie? We don't want that. Why would you want that? I don't know. I'm asking. Yeah. The answer is yes. We could definitely do that. Probably get right now. Like it's not my little face on old nominale footage. I'm saying for some of the just slide it in so that we get all the athleticism and stuff from. So what is they do? They like D.A.H. actors and put them in bed. Like the Irishman, you like the Irishman. I'm saying would we ever cheat? Could you accept it? You put my whole legs on Will Smith, right? Almost like when they tried to do with forest gump, when they put forest in the different, well, I mean, what you're really asking for is for there to be like an AI facsimile of because that will work the best, right? Like what you're asking for is an AI facsimile that can approximate the speed, power, and position in time. But then just watch your fucking Muhammad Ali YouTube video. That's the problem. Yeah. That's the thing. I think if you wanted to do something where it was like, I want Timothy Chalamet to play like a middleweight fighter, but he's, you know, like the limits of what he can do. Like, well, that's an example though, because the ping pong was all AI. Yeah. He was actually playing ping pong. I mean, CGI. Yeah. So it wasn't playing. He was playing ping pong, but wasn't playing at the level of the movie. The deal here is that like when you're a boxer, something you've been doing, most of the greats, not all of them, but most of it is something you've been doing since you're eight and nine years old. And they're like fast and slow, twitch muscle things. There's movement. They're angles. There's all of that stuff that you just can't get ready for in the movie camp to kind of like look like you know how to do it. That's a lot of things like that. Yeah. So you just, I'm laughing, but it's refreshing to see William X open to new technology, right? Because I live on religious leaders are a little bit, you know, but you, you know, you know, I'm, oh, you know, it's a good boxing movie for boxing scenes. The hammer that I'm Corolla. Is that, oh yeah it is. 'Cause Corolla actually boxed one of the rare ones. Everyone else kind of learns how to box for the movie. But rarely do we get the actor leading the movie who actually boxed us. Boxes is a little bit distal-owned box. Did he mess around it now? He kind of learned how to do it. Is there a boxing story that you would love to see made into a movie, a fighter, a fight? Easy for me. Emil Griffith, good documentary. Emil Griffith, why Bill? He killed somebody in the ring. That's not why. And had some hiding some secrets. Yeah, he was gay the whole time. In middleweight, like just one of the most dominant middleweights fucking over everybody. But also gay guy. The guy killed in the ring kept making fun of him for being gay and he killed him in the ring. Jesus. It's a good documentary. They make a word-goddy movie. Well, they did not, but they made the fighter, but somehow word-goddy wasn't it? I always thought a great movie would be Shikere Leonard winning the herds fight, getting into cocaine and the detached retina and then the five years leading to the aggra fight. Did in trying to be a hero? You should already get to, and obviously Emil Griffith is much more obscure than Shikere that would be about the story and not about the thing. Did Shikere get to biopic level? I mean, I personally think he did for some of the movies that have been biopics. Like did Cinderella man get to a biopic level? I saw about the depression. Shikere was the most famous fighter since I lived before Tyson. Yeah, he definitely was. But like, there was something to where he seemed like a bridge between Ali and Tyson. Do you like he held it down? So to me that, the Shikere story is like, Ralph Sampson getting hurt in the '86 finals, but then coming back and winning the '93 finals or something. Like it felt like his career was kind of over. The detached retina seemed like a descendant. And he started to have a whole bunch of issues. Right. Then came back and then when he fought aggra, it was like a four to one underdog. Like four years, three years off? How many years off? It took five. Yeah, like it just comes back from the '87. Do you, like, do you, does any of this ring a bell at a none of you? I mean, I know his name's obviously, but not at the '80s, man. CR, thank you. Thank you for having me, Nathan. Nathan, thank you. Craig and Gao, thank you. Eduardo, thank you. Anyone else to thank? Matt. Matt, thank you. We'll be back next week on the rewatchables with the 30-year anniversary of She's the One, which you can watch at Netflix before we do the podcast. There you go. [MUSIC PLAYING]