ALEX HONNOLD: ONE Interview Before Free-Soloing Taiwan’s Tallest Building LIVE (This Episode Will Change Your Relationship with FEAR)

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On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A New Year doesn't ask us to become someone new. It invites us back home to ourselves. Hummike Delarucha, host of sacred lessons, a space for men to pause, reflect, and heal. This year we're talking honestly about mental health, relationships, and the patterns we're ready to release. If you're looking for clarity, connection, and healthier ways to show up in your life, sacred lessons is here for you. Listen to sacred lessons with Mike Delarucha on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Climbing still always has some edge to it because fundamentally you could die. I think that it changes your relationship but fear because you experience it a lot. Fear is just feeling some sensations in your body. If you're used to that state of discomfort, you're kind of like, "That's just another day." Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I am so thankful that you're tuning in for a very special episode. Today's guest is someone that I've written about in my book Think Like A Monk. It's someone that I've mentioned in Countly Daily J Meditations on the Car Map. It's someone's story that I've been fascinated with for quite some time. I'm speaking about Alex Honnold, one of the greatest climbers in history. An athlete who has expanded our understanding of courage, focus, and human potential. From his Oscar winning, free solo assent to his upcoming live climb of Taipei 101, Alex continues to push the boundaries of what's possible. He's the founder of the Honnold Foundation using his platform to bring solo energy to communities in need. Today we're diving into the mindset that makes it all possible. Please welcome to On Purpose, Alex Honnold. Alex, it's great to finally meet you. Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's an honor. I'm so happy to hear that you'd actually already read the kind of book that I mentioned you, which truly your story, your mindset has been fascinating to me for years. That book came out in 2020. And so I'm so excited that I actually get to sit down with the real human behind it today and get to actually learn from the master as opposed to my interpretations of what you may be doing. I think your interpretations are pretty good. That's very kind of you. That means the world. I wanted to start with this getting straight into it. On January 23rd, you're climbing the tallest building in Taiwan. Why? Because it's awesome. Because I get to, basically. Because it'll be so fun. I mean, yeah, basically it's really hard to get permission to climb building. And if you get permission, you kind of have to say yes. It's like so many other sorts of life experiences where you're kind of like, well, it's a hard thing to do, but you get permission. You kind of just have to go do it. And you've been wanting to climb this building for quite some time, right? Yeah, I actually scouted it for a different TV thing, the Phillip part in 2013, I think. So for the last, you know, 12 years, I've known that it was possible. I knew that it's, I mean, the building is honestly uniquely suited for climbing. It's kind of perfect. It's amazing. And it's a really beautiful building. I looked at it before. Yeah, it's singular. It's striking. I mean, you saw how it sticks out of the cityscape. I mean, it's incredible. So it's just so cool. But so 12 years ago, or so, I scouted it, and realized that I could do it. It was like, this is amazing. But never got the opportunity. And so now I get the opportunity. I love that. And is this building that fascinating to you because of the architecture because of this cityscape? Is that how you choose what you feel inspired to climb? I mean, a little bit, I think, in general, rock formations. There are always a bunch of the different things that go into choosing a cool objective. But part of it is the aesthetic beauty of it. Is it striking? Does it catch the eye? Is it beautiful? I mean, part of it is in rock climbing, it's sort of like the mythology of it, like the climbing history. Is it important to climbers? And so I think with building is it's kind of the same way. Is it striking? Is it beautiful? Is it possible? Which in this case, it's kind of in the perfect sweet spot where it's possible and it's challenging. But it's not insanely challenging. Because if you're going to do something for a TV program, it has to be, well, you just have to be able to do it on command. So you don't want it to be cutting edge, cutting like the hardest thing ever done. You want it to be kind of in a sweet spot. We're like, this is challenging and it's going to keep me focused. But it's not insanely difficult. You started climbing really young, right? Well, 10-ish. Which actually nowadays elite climbers all start even younger. Really? But yeah, I was lucky enough to start as a kid. And was it always the plan for it to be a professional pursuit? No, no. No, my parents are both professors and they were supportive and like, go do the thing that you like to do. But I mean, especially when I was young, climbing was way more fringe, way more niche. And so nobody was a professional climber. But thankfully, as I grew up, that kind of climbing has also grown up. Quite a bit of climbing is in the Olympics now. It's just way bigger of a sport. So it's a little less unusual. And there's just more money in the now. So you can actually make a living. Was there a moment that you felt that you were like, oh, I'm actually good at this. Like, this is real. Like, when did that happen for the last time? No, not really. It's not. No, I mean, for years, I thought that I would wind up being a mountain guide or something. I just wanted to-- I figured I'd get some kind of job within the climbing world. And then I picked up some sponsors and started getting my gear for free. And I was living in a van by myself. So it's pretty low overhead. You're kind of just living. And then eventually, you're kind of like, oh, I'm making a living doing this thing I love to do. And then eventually, you're making a little more. And then I was like, oh, I mean, it took years until I really thought of myself as a professional climber. First, it was just kind of like, oh, I'm basically a homeless person living in a van who happens to get climbing shoes for free. And you're like, oh, that's cool. But that's different than feeling like you're actually going to make a living as a rock climber. And so you were doing this even when there was no money. This was what you were chasing. It's like you were working on the job and doing this on the side of the road. No, I mean, I did work, you know, like I worked in my climbing gym when I was a kid and, you know, worked a little bit on the side. But, uh, but no, basically I've just been trying to climb my whole life. Well, what was the first climb that you did that was challenging and risky or some sort of like real? I mean, I think as I started to dab a lot of doors because I grew up in suburban California, like in Sacramento. And so I would just ride my bicycle to the climbing gym. And so for the first, you know, eight years of my climbing life is just going climbing in the gym. So I mean, it's super fun and you can learn all the skills that way, but it's not particularly extreme or anything. It's not like, you know, it's not what people think of as adventure. And then once I learned how to drive and then started borrowing the family car and started going outside more, then I started having some of the adventures that I think characterise, you know, what people think of as extreme rock climbing and all that. Yeah, well, what's the experience for you? Like, is it the thrill? Is it the fascination? What part of it gives you life and brings you alive? Like what part of it gives you joy? I mean, I think at the core is just the movement of climbing. Like I literally just came here from the climbing gym because I had a little time in between. I can see on your hands, yeah. Yeah, I didn't watch my hands. But yeah, it's like there's a climbing gym relative in your body. And I was like, oh, perfect. So just a quick session, basically just rapid-fired problems around the gym, building gyms that just shorten, you know, safe. And I just did an hour as fast as I could and I'm tired. And I'm like, what a nice day. So it's really just the movement of climbing, I think, is the, at the core, that's the joy of it. But then beyond that, there's the challenge, you know, like overcoming fears, you know, as a professional climber, I mean, the travel involved in it, like seeing the world being outdoors in nature, having, you know, beautiful experiences, all your friends. I mean, there are all these other things that are amazing about climbing. But I think the thing that always brings back to us, that just like climbing, you know, it's like running or swimming or other sort of like elemental movement patterns, it just feels good to do the thing. Tell me about the actual skill of climbing for someone who isn't a climber. Yeah, I'm climbing at all. I have, I don't think I've climbed at all. I'm trying to think about it in my life. I don't think I've ever climbed. And so I would love to understand, like talk to me about the actual skill of climbing is if you were training me. Even as a kid, you never climbed on things. Oh, yeah, of course, I love climbing on things. I wanted to do parkour. My kids, my parents would never let me. I am. But parkour was like my fascination. I saw kids doing parkour. I was like, that's so cool. I love climbing trees. I love climbing walls. Yeah, so I think that's. I'm a lot of gates. I've climbed like that. But I mean, I've never. Well, I think that's the same thing basically. And that's actually, I think one of the interesting things, you know, with this building thing coming up, people are like, "How do you climb a building?" I'm kind of like, what was a kid? I climbed all the buildings around my home. I climbed all the trees. I fell out of trees quite a lot. Me too. And, you know, I'm kind of like just. I just became my wrist doing that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I broke my three times as a kid falling off play structures and ones in the climbing gym. But, yeah, I mean, basically most kids, it feels like love that kind of play. And I think it's pretty normal to play on things in that way. And so, was interesting that now is in dope people, like, "Why would you do that?" You're gonna like, "Because it's awesome, "because it's so fun." It's like the same reason the kids like to do that, because it's cool. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I still love a ropes course. Like, you know, if I have it, but I get the play bit, but what are the skills that you've had to build to actually be able to do this professionally? Because there's a difference between, I love the play, and then, you know, I'm gonna climb the 11 tallest building in the world. Like, what's the training? What's the skill level? Talk to me about the mastery from zero to where you are today. What are the steps that it's taken to? - I mean, yeah, I'm like, in some ways, you just go and do the thing all the time and you get better at it. You know, on the other hand, it's like, I've been climbing probably five days a week for 30 years, and you're like, "Oh, you're bound to slowly get better "as something if you put that much effort into it." But yeah, I mean, I guess the, I mean, it comes down to movement, like how well do you move your body, like transferring your weight over your feet, like in theory, your leg should be driving you for most things. I mean, people think of climbing is pulling with your arms, but really, you should think of it as climbing a steep, steep staircase. So you should be driving with your legs and you should be using your hands, almost like you were on a hand rail like for balance. You know, obviously, if a climb is more than vertical, then you have to hang on with your arms more. But still, you should be driving as much as you can through your feet. So it comes down to technique and body position, where you, how you use your hips, all that kind of stuff. But, you know, in some ways, I think that over-complicates those. Like really, you just go and you try. You know, you just go climbing. (laughs) - I love how casual you make it sound when I'm thinking, like in my head I'm thinking, well, you never skip leg day 'cause you need to work on that. Like, are there certain muscle groups that you just need to be proficient at and prolific at so that you can be a better climber? - I mean, climbing is very full body. So it's like basically you use everything. I mean, if you could just like turn the dials on something, if you could turn your finger strength to infinity, then you'd be a great climber. You know, it's like basically if you can hold on things, it'd vary very well. Then basically you can climb well. - How do you build your finger strength? - Well, sadly, I'm, finger strength is probably my biggest weakness is a climber. It's probably the one thing that, or it's probably the thing that I'm worst at and overall, especially you can learn my peers, like other professional climbers. I've always been sort of better with sort of full body. Like I think I have good technique and so I can transfer a lot of weight to my feet and sort of keep them off my fingers 'cause my fingers aren't that strong. But in general, you build finger strength at the same way you build any other strength. You basically load your fingers and finger strength is actually your forearm strength. It's like your, you know, 'cause you control your hand like three or four. - Yeah, grip strength. And so you just build that by, you know, hanging from small edges or hanging with more weight on you. Just, you know, you build up. - How many hours do you spend training per week? - I can probably spend, you know, three to five hours in a session climbing and I can do that maybe five days a week or so. But that doesn't totally do, you know, some of the days that I go, you know, quote unquote climbing, I'm going soloing in the mountains or something and so of that time, a chunk of it is hiking into the thing, some of it's climbing the thing, some of it's like eating lunch on top and trying to figure out where the next, how to get off the mountain or whatever, you know what I mean? Like sometimes you can have a six or eight hour day in the mountains and you're kind of like strolling, but it's all very low intensity. You're kind of like wandering through the mountains and figuring out what you're doing. It's not like, it's not like, - It's not intense the whole time. - Yeah, it's not like Michael Phelps training the pool or something, you know, I mean, you're like wandering on the mountains, like slightly confused trying to figure out. And I mean, sometimes you walk into the mountains, it turns out it's cold and raining and then you walk back and you're kind of like, well, I didn't actually climb anything. That's just the way it goes. When you count like hours of training, and actually, so in the past, I used to have a training journal where I did keep track of hours and now I don't really keep track of time because that's not really the best metric, I don't think it's more around effort and you know, like what you've actually done. - Yeah. - Like, 'cause some days you spend a ton of time but you don't do that much. And then other days in a couple hours, you can get completely destroyed because you're going super hard. - What's been your favorite place you've got lost? - I don't know, I mean, I live in Las Vegas and Red Rock, a conservation area is like this big world-famous climbing destination like just outside of town. And I live near and I climb in Red Rock all the time and I still got lost all the times. I really complicated sandstone canyons like folds of rock and, you know, tricky. It's just, yeah, I mean, it's crazy 'cause every season I'm like, where are the trail go? I'm like, oh, I live here and I hike this all the time and I'm like, how much do I lost? But you know, that's the joy of me, not doors really. - When you talk about the mindset as well, you were saying half of it is, you know, the beat of the landscape or the rock formation and you said the other half is just your fascination with overcoming fear and the mindset piece. I imagine being lost while doing something you love is quite a special feeling in teams that you've made friends with. - I mean, I've never really, actually, there only been a couple times where I've been like lost, lost, like once I actually climb into a thing and South Africa, I thought I was gonna have to drop into, now I forget what's the neighboring country to the north. We were right on the border like North of Johannesburg. I forgot what the next country north is. But basically, I thought I was gonna have to drop over the border into another country and basically go find a village 'cause we were up on a mountain base and you could see villages off in the distance but I was like, couldn't find a way back to where I was supposed to and was kind of like, I'm just gonna go full-view rogue here and just have to like borrow somebody's phone and try to find a way to contact the people that I'm supposed to be, but ultimately I found my way, eventually showed up hours late and totally torn to shreds from like crawling through the bushes all confused. But so I've only had a few experiences like that where I'm lost lost. For the most part, you always have a sense of where you're supposed to be going, you're just not on a trail or you can't find the best way. - Yeah. - But that is kind of the joy of climbing. You just have tons of experiences like that where you're like, oh, I'm doing some crazy thing. (laughing) - I read that in 2016, neuroscientist conducted a brain scan and found that you're a migdala responded much less to fear than the average person. Did you always feel that way growing up? - No, but well, so this is part of a long thing, but I would suspect that you're a migdala probably responds less to fear than the average person just in the same way. Like, yours the meditation will do the same thing. It's like you're just not gonna respond to stimulus in the same way. And so for me, I see that as basically I've been getting afraid. I've been consistently experiencing fear all the time as a climber, you know, for years. And so then the tests that they did for that particular brain scan, you know, you're an FMRI and then you look at these black white photos. And I'm like, well, obviously looking at photos, while I'm lying down inside of sealed tube, it's just not scary. You know, if you spend your whole life getting scared all the time, that's not scary. And in the same way that I'm sure if somebody scans your brain, it's gonna be different than average because you spend a ton of time working on it basically. You're kind of like, that seems totally reasonable. You know, I was like, I don't know. It's a shame because there's a scene in free solo. You know, they show a little clip from that. And basically everyone watching the movie comes out of like, well, there's something wrong with his brain. And you're like, no, the takeaway is that if you practice something your whole life, you get better at it. It's like, that's the real lesson. - Yeah, that, that, I mean, now looking at it from your perspective, that makes a lot of sense. In that you're, you're right that when you're doing those tests, it will rarely be as scary as something you've done in reality. - Yeah, I mean, it's like, I get tons of questions around fear and like managing fear and all that. And, and, you know, my ass just obviously I changed over time and I've like thought about fear a ton of my life. And now honestly, I'm always like, you know, it's been 30 years I've been climbing all the time. And climbing is really scary. Like you're always scared, at least a little bit as a climber because there are always consequences in climbing. Even if you're climbing with a rope and you're using protection, you're still always a little bit on edge because you know, you're like, what if the rope cut? Like what if, you know, I didn't time I not? Like there are always these what ifs. And so you're always a little bit afraid. And so I think that it changes your relationship with fear because you're just scared all the time. I mean, you know, not like deep fear, but there's always an edge to it. And so I think that puts all the other fear in life sort of in perspective, you know, it gets you good at managing fear because you experience it a lot. - How do you moderate it or regulate it in that moment when you've got to place an extra step, you've got to reach for something else, you've got to keep moving. Because I think that's your spot on by the way, I love the way you talk about fear because I think you're absolutely right that if you're constantly in a state of discomfort, but you have the right mindset because a lot of people in the state of discomfort but then they overthink or they procrastinate or they get stuck. - I think it's like if it's their first time in a state of discomfort, then it's pretty overwhelming. But if you're used to that state of discomfort, you're kind of like, oh, it's just another day. You know what I think that's the thing with climbing is that a lot of the time, you know, you're a little bit scared, but you just totally ignore it because the rational part of your mind is like, this is fine. Like your harness is not in like everything is safe, the rope is safe, you're totally fine. And so you just ignore it. But then occasionally you're like, oh, I'm scared because I'm in danger. So you're kind of like, oh, I should think about this and sort of evaluate like, you know, am I going to be okay? Is this should I take different actions? Should I try to mitigate this in some way? So I don't mean, you know, it totally depends. But that's the thing is the climb is you're constantly balancing those kinds of things. Like is this fear well-founded? Should I act upon it in some way? Should I do something? Should I not, you know? - Yeah. And so your relationship with fear seems just very neutral in the sense of you having a conversation with it. It's like every other day. - Yeah, I sometimes, I mean, fear is a sensation in your body. Same as lots of other things. And so I've used this analogy before, but I'm kind of like, it's like hunger. You know, when you experience hunger, you're not like, oh my God, I'm hungry. I need to say I'm much right now. You're just kind of like, okay, I should eat at some point. And I feel like I think because people experience fear much less frequently, it feels more overwhelming. But you know, if you experience fear with the same regularity that you experience hunger, then you're kind of like, okay, like I'll deal with that in due time. Like when it makes sense, I'll manage that. But fundamentally, feeling fear is just feeling some sensations in your body or so. Like it's not like, doesn't matter more or less than the other thing that you feel in your body, really. Unless it's telling you you're about to die. In which case you should be attention. - Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel that that, what you just said about the more frequently you are exposed to fear, the less fear affects you? Does that try to. translate from the physical sensation to when you're having emotional relational challenges as well. Probably less so than my wife wishes. I think it does a little bit probably because to some extent, managing fear is managing fear. But it is a little bit of what you practice. I think I'm really good at dealing with physical fear, physical risk and things where I'm like I'm in danger. Less so. I mean, public speaking, I was horrified for a long time. But again, with tons of practice, it's gotten much more comfortable. It's fine. And then like, relationship will stuff. I'm sort of like, oh, that's so I mean, my wife would say there's still long ways to go. Yeah, I talked to me about the difference between like the fear of what you do, which most of us would see as that is scary. And then public speaking, which is known as one of the scariest things. Yeah, I mean, like, talk to you about the difference. No, I think it's really similar. I mean, I think most people are, I mean, I was definitely more afraid of public speaking than then climbing. But obviously, you know, I love climbing a small life doing it. But public speaking is horrifying. Though that said, now that I've had a lot of practice with it, I would say that it's not that scary. Whereas climbing still always has some edge to it because fundamentally you could die. You know, with public speaking, it feels like you might die, but you're just, you know, it's fine. Like, you can always go out and like make it fool yourself and it doesn't really matter. Well, that's what I'm saying, right? Like the reason why we get scared of doing things that where there isn't a cost is because we almost make it out like there is a higher stake to it. Yeah, but I think that with a little bit of practice, you realize that there just is not have a stake. There's no stake. Like, you know, when you haven't done it before, you're like, what if they laugh at you? And then you're like, what if they do? Like, who cares? You know, it turns out it's totally fine. It doesn't matter. Yeah. You know, but with with some of the physical fear stuff, you're kind of like, well, I mean, it does matter if you fall through death or, you know, so those, you know, that will always have some edge to it. Yeah. And so how do you process that in the moment when those, when that's what you think? I mean, it depends. Sometimes, you know, first, take some deep breaths, compose yourself sort of like, try to deal. I mean, the thing with climbing is that there's never any time pressure to it. So you can just stand there basically. Wow. You know, even if you're cleaning to the rock, like maintaining a static position is typically not, like that hard. So you can just hold on, take some deep breaths, take your time, get composed. And then try to decide whether or not, you know, it's like sometimes you get really scared for no particular reason. And then other times, you're kind of like, oh, it turns out that I, you know, misjudge the rock quality. And this is much more dangerous than I thought it was. And like, maybe I should bail. And so I mean, I bailed off all kinds of things where you climb part way up. Something you're like, this is not for me. And you just climb back down. That's interesting to hear. So you're okay with knowing your edge and knowing your limit. There's not. The thing with free souling is that you always have to stay well within your limits. You know, it's like, because like, when you're climbing with a rope, you're always trying to push yourself, like sort of beyond your limits that you can learn and grow and everything. But if you're free souling, you stay well within your comfort zone because obviously you just can't fall off. And that's what this next climb is, right? Yeah, this next time is free souling, but it should be, I mean, it's interesting. It should be well within my physical comfort zone. Like, you know, I should be able to physically comment. But the sort of exciting thing for me is that I've just never climbed a building like before. And so, so I think even though I'm very confident in my physical ability to do it, I'm still kind of like, well, I'm doing a new thing. And so that's always a little bit exciting. Yes. Yeah, I love that. So I I feel like what I really appreciate with how we're talking about fear right now and through your reflection on it is that there's a sense of recognizing that anytime I do something new, I'll feel a sense of discomfort or fear. And that's a good thing. Yeah, because that means I'm trying something new. When that's the whole thing is like, are you experiencing fear? Are you experiencing nervousness or excitement? Or, you know, because a lot of those things are the same sensation in your body, really, you're like, oh, I'm like a little nervous. Or I'm feeling like butterflies and I feel tingling and I'm on edge and I feel heightened. You're like, am I afraid or am I excited? Like, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to exactly pinpoint some of those kinds of things. And so, so I think it's you just don't want to put too fine a point. I'm like, I'm scared because you're like, or you're just sight. Yeah. Like I know that when I get to the bottom of the building, like, actually, surprisingly, the first move off the ground is one of the harder moves on the climb. And you've got to have to like jump up and catch this thing and like start climbing and like basically taking the first step on the building is like one of the hardest. And I'm sure I'm going to be a little nervous and a little tight and just kind of like, oh, this is, you know, with cameras and people in a whole spectacle. I'd be like, it's crazy. Yeah. It's just going to be like, you know, nervous. But does that mean I'm scared? I'm like, I mean, we'll see. I don't think so, but I think it'll be exciting for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. No, I mean, not that I've done anything that I think is that hard, but anything I've ever done for the first time. Yeah, it's scary a little bit. Even if I've done it for a long time, it's still nerve-wracking. Like I said, not comparing anything at all, but yes, for me, if I was going into a longer meditation than I've ever done before, yeah, it'd be like, there's a new step. Absolutely. I'm still nervous. And again, what is what is the longest meditation you know? What's considered like a long meditation? So we would do a minimum of four to eight hours a day when I live in blocks or something. In full chunks. Like you could do four together or eight together. Dude. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. But the longest one I've ever done is probably just under 24 hours. Yeah. Longest. Dude. Yeah. Wow. How deep did you go? One of the, it was one of the best most because what we learned through length of meditation was not to show how long you can meditate. It was the ability to have to disconnect from the body because you have to go beyond the body to be that present in the moment because you'll start, and I mean yours is much harder, but like you'd start feeling an ache or a pain, you start itching, you start mentally getting back to someone. Yeah, of course. When you're back hurts and you're about hurt. Totally. Totally. So you've got to go beyond the body and the mind. 24 hours you get hungry. You have to go to the bathroom and do what I mean. How do you like? Yeah, no, you're fasting to make it easier, but yeah, but does that make it easier? I mean, it makes easier to, but you know, it's just fasting for 24 hours is its own challenge. Yeah, we would do it often enough so it wasn't, it wasn't, again, it's what you just said about. That's what you practice. When you're practicing it, it doesn't sound that crazy for me to say how loud because I know other monks who've done it for three days and seven days and you know, for longer than far. Can people meditate for seven days? Oh, absolutely. They're like, there's some people that I mean, yeah, I'm like a complete beginner when it comes to, you know, the realm of real, you know, work that some of these incredible people that I got to me have done. Two days, seven days is a long time to sit. Yeah, it's a long time to sit. That's not good. I feel like more than you might need. Yeah, exactly. It's always like that interesting thing where I remember when I was starting to do cold plunges in the beginning, I'd always be like, what's the right amount of time to be in a cold plunge and when I was zero, I was going to ask you, I love you for a deal forever. No, no, I don't do that kind of thing. Oh, you don't? But it's because I'm kind of like, I don't think it matters. I don't think it makes me better. So, you know, if I was convinced that this would like change my life, then I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I could do that, you know, my no matter whatever. But there were a lot of things I got, same with meditation where I'm like, if I thought this was the path and like that would help me send, you know, like climb harder, then I'm like, yeah, I would do that. But if I don't think so, then I'm like, no, I take a hot shower. I love that. I love that. But no, it's what I was saying was that when I first started to do it, it was there's the ego number because it makes you feel better, but then there's the number that's actually good for your health. So I think most health experts would say three to seven minutes in there is amazing. But then people will be like, I was in there for 15 minutes, but it's almost like it doesn't, it's not that active after the seven minutes because your body is regulated and now it's not a challenge or a shock anymore. And after 20, you're dead. So exactly it's not a real benefit. It's not actually happened. So has there ever been anything you're like, I really want to climb that, but actually it's too risky and I wouldn't even bother like you said, you bailed. Well, it turns okay. So actually so in the context of the building. So when the idea of climate skyscrapers for a live thing came up, you know, whatever 12 years ago or something when you first scouted, the first thing I scouted was the Birch Khalifa, which is the tallest building in the world you buy. And it's possible you can climb it. I mean, I was able to do the moves on it, but it's it's cutting edge basically is like very, very hard. And how high did you get? I could climb the building with a rope, you know, climbing outside, but it's just very hard. And also it's hard in the wrong ways. It's like very slippery and very, very finicky. Like you could imagine a slipping off to me moment. So basically I was kind of like, it was kind of like the all cap of free sewing or something. I was like, sure, if I devoted myself to this, I like moved to Dubai and just like lived on this building. It's like, yeah, it's possible. You know, like it can physically be done with the proper commitment and everything. But for a TV program and I was like, no, this is crazy. Like I'd actually started thinking about using like a like a D day style parachute, you know, like old school military parachutes, like a modern parachute is like a wing has a direction to it. So it's actually not that helpful for something like a building because you'd have to be able to get a clean exit away from the building and turn away from it and face the correct direction. Because if you're, if you deployed a parachute and you went into the building, you just crumple and collapse and die. So anyway, but so like a drop parachute, just like an old school, like what you imagine like GI Joe using that just go straight down when I was playing on the verge. I was kind of like, well, maybe I'd use something like that because then if you know, you did slip, at least you could just basically plummet straight down the face of the building. Like it might kind of be okay. You know, you maybe break your ankle at the bottom, but you're not going to die. And so, you know, I started considering ideas like that. I was like, this is all crazy. This is too much. Like this is too extreme basically. And so I mean, that's an example of a climb. I'm like, yeah, it's possible. Like somebody could do it, but it's just way outside what I think is reasonable. But then when it went and scouted type I one at one, it's kind of like, oh, it has all the same features of a striking building that's like the biggest thing in the whole landscape. It's amazing. But the style of climbing is way more secure. Like the things that you're grabbing are way less slippery. And then the shape of them works better, like you just hold on better. I was just like, oh, this is the type of challenge I'm looking for. - Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder whether now after this, they're gonna stop building buildings for you to climb. That's just gonna happen. - I don't think Architects even, I don't even think it crosses their mind like what humans can hold on the other. 'Cause it's interesting, I mean, some buildings are just completely impossible 'cause they're just smooth, metal and glass. And then other buildings are like a ladder. You know, it's almost like a jungle gym where it's like too easy as kind of trivial. Like anybody can walk up and do it if they wanted to. - Yes. - Like the New York Times building in New York City has been climbed by a handful of random people. And like some just random dude off the street just climbed half the building 'cause it's like a scaffolding basically. And they're kinda like, well, that's not the challenge and I'm looking forward because I've spent my whole life practicing this thing. I wanna do something as hard enough that it feels meaningful to me. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - How do you prepare for a climb? So you scout it out. But how do you then prepare? Like how are you preparing right now for? - Yeah, I actually just started all my trainings type stuff for it. It's funny, I did the scout in September because they have to do it far enough out to assemble the crew and plan the filming and all that kind of stuff. And so, it's funny because I was super psyched at the time where you go and scout and you're like, "God, this is so cool. I'm so excited. I wanna do this next week." You know, I'm like, "Let's do this. I'm ready." But then that kind of had to just sit on it for a couple months just because it's scheduled for January. And so now sort of two and a half months out, I've started like properly training. You just don't wanna start like really training too far out because then you'll just get like injured and tired. And you know, it's like, you kinda wanna peak at the right time. And so yeah, I'm just, I don't know, like all the ways you know I'm like training, like eating really well, sleeping really well, exercising, a tremendous amount. And just kind of trying to ramp up my volume so that I feel incredibly fit when the time comes. - And that's so interesting that you said you have to peak at the right time. So have you learned how to do that over time, I assume, because in my head I'm thinking, "Oh wait, for something this big, you'd prepare six months in advance." But I love where you're saying that. - Well, but yeah. - Yeah, like a training block. Normally you can only sustain, say, three to six weeks of hard effort before you kinda need like a de-load time. Like basically you can only build for a certain amount of time and then you need some kind of natural rest and then you can start building again. And so ideally you sort of like naturally build up over time. But if you were to say six months out from an event, you'd have to have a pretty sophisticated, like I'm gonna train really hard for a month but then rest for like a week or two and then train really hard, you know, you need like a complicated plan. In this case I have a relatively simple plan and that I'm basically just ramping until the building. And I kinda started my training, maybe a little prematurely, I was all psyched. And so I think I'm gonna take a little de-load time around Christmas, which actually works perfectly with all of the things, 'cause I think I'll basically wanna do in six weeks or so and then have like a week of Christmas where I kinda chill and then do another three or four weeks and then do the thing. - You sound just like us Alex. - No. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's all kind of perfectly, you know, I think it should be perfect. But we'll see so far, so far I'm responding well and feel really strong and yes, great. - I love hearing that one. I'm excited to see it. Like I'm so thrilled. It's to do it live is just, you know, you're giving us a real treat. Like I think, you know, - It's interesting though, like for me the live thing doesn't, if anything it makes it more chill. Because normally when you shoot a documentary, you go and you do the thing and then you have to go back and film on it and you have to shoot pickups and shoot audio and like do all this extra work basically. And so, you know, it's just a tremendous amount of effort. But for the live event, I'm kinda like, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do it and then I'm gonna fly home and I'm done. It's totally amazing. As soon as I do the climb, I'm totally done. - Yeah, I'm like, - No, but thanks for us, it's more fun because we get to be there with you. - Yeah, yeah, but I just don't, you know, I basically don't totally care. You know about like other people experiment, like 'cause it, - Oh, you don't, so, - Well, I mean, not really, you know. - Oh, interesting. - 'Cause sort of like, if it was a film about it, like that'd be fine for me too, the live thing. Basically, I wanna do a climb that I'm proud of. Like I'm excited about climbing it and the way other people experience it, I'm kind of like, - You know, yeah. - I mean, I don't wanna say I don't care because I want other people to have, you know, a good time from it. But like, you know, (laughing) - That's not the priority. - You don't, I mean. - Yeah, I like it. - Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the thing. - And I think that's the reason. - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's brilliant. What a great play. I think everyone wants to live that way. You do it 'cause you love it. It doesn't really matter. - Yeah, it's funny. Like when it first got announced as a project, there was, you know, the sort of expected online hate and stuff from people in the climbing community and like, "Why would you do that, that's stupid." "Why climb building is too risky," or like, you know, whatever, you know, criticism for various reasons. But I was kind of like, "Man, wait till you see the thing. It's so cool. It's so fun." You know, if you had the opportunity to do this, you would do it too. 'Cause like any climber would say yes to this. 'Cause it's super fun. And any, you know, like getting an opportunity to do something amazing, it's like, "Why would you ever say no to that?" But my goal for the, you know, if I can say I have a goal for the building, I mean, other than climbing it, is just to actually have fun doing it. Because I'm kind of like, "That's what I want people to see from it." Like, this is awesome. You know, not like that some death-defying stun. It should be like, "This is amazing. Like, this is so fun. This is joyous." - Yeah, absolutely. - We'll see. I love how playfully make it because appealing to that part, I think we can all relate to that when it was just, when it was playful, when it was exciting, when it was, - Yeah. I know it's like, that's the thing is it gets wrapped in all this, like, it's extreme. And you're kind of like, "Yes, I mean, yes, it's very high consequence." Like, if I make a mistake, if I totally botched something, I could die. And you're like, "Yeah, that's, you don't wanna downplay that too much." But at the same time, it's pretty fun. And the thing is that those are the same consequences if I don't pay attention when I'm driving, or like whatever else. There are plenty of other things you do in life, where if you botch it, you're gonna die. And yet, people take some of those things for granted, it's like, "Oh, that's just normal life." You're kind of like, "Well, you know, it's like you gotta be intentional around where you're taking your risks." - Yeah. Do you think that's a helpful mindset when you are doing things as well to recognize it? To see it more as, I guess, grounded in real and normal in terms of when you're processing things, is that a helpful mindset? - What do you mean? - Like, even just, the way you describe it, which I agree with, you're like, "Yeah, well, there's crazy risk in this as well." And you're right, like in driving, for example, and texting, and all that kind of stuff, or drink driving, or whatever. - Yeah, drinking and driving, to me, is the thing. People are always like, "Oh, climbing is even dangerous." And you're like, "Well, the thing with climbing is at least you're choosing the risks that you're taking." And obviously, I'm training for them, I'm preparing for them. You know, I have imagery of the building at home, so I can visualize the moves. Like, there's a lot that goes into it. Whereas, people go out and party on Friday night, and then they drive home, they're like, "What else?" "Just a Friday, I'm partying." And you're like, "Well, those, you're taking the tremendous amount of risk, sort of unintentionally." - Same texting and driving, too. - Yeah, I mean, and those are the types of things where you're like, "You know, like if you're not choosing to take those risks, I don't know, I mean, I think that's kind of worse." - Yeah, talk to me about the visualization, because I'm such a big fan of visualizations. - Yeah, I read about it, I read about it. - And meditation technique. Talk to me about where you just said, you have a picture of the building. - Well, yeah, so, I mean, in rock climbing, like when I'm climbing hard routes, let's say you always just imagine the route you think about it, you remember the moves. Part of it is to physically remember what to do, like left hand, right hand, like drop the left hip, you know, turn the knee, things like that, like the mechanics of it. And then part of the visualization is like, what will it feel like, particularly around free-sulling things that you're not gonna be able to practice necessarily, so some of the visualizing is just, you know, like how will it feel to put my foot on something that's really slippery when, you know, I'm gonna die of it's lips, and so you're just kind of imagining the sensations and all that kind of stuff. - So you can't, as part of free-sulling, you can't go and climb this building at any point in order to practice. - Well, no, I can go practice it with a rope. - Okay, right. - But the thing is, you just don't know, because when you have a rope on, you don't really mind if your foot's gonna slippery something. - Yeah. - But then when you take the rope away, you're kind of like, well, is it gonna feel different? Like, I don't know, and you can't totally practice that. So you kind of have to do that mentally, just imagine it. - Yes, so you get a sense while you're on the rope, almost as a direct rehearsal feeling, and then you're having to remember that feeling of a sort of imagine the potential feelings. - Excuse me. - Part of the benefit of visualization, I think, is that you're like, what if it's humid that day, what it's particularly dry? And like with the building, it's interesting, because with glass and metal, you know, the texture is obviously really different than rock. And so, I'm not sure if I wanted to be humid, or if I wanted to be dry. Like with rock, you normally wanted to be super dry, because if it's humid, it's too slippery on the rock. But with a building, because it's so slippery to begin with, I think you actually want some humidity, so it doesn't feel as slippery. Like you want your skin to stick to it a little bit, and so you want like a little bit of dampness, but obviously you don't wetness, you don't want it to be wet, because then it's really slippery. So anyway, just thinking about stuff like that, I mean, that's all part of visualization, I think. But what I was gonna say is that with rock climbing, you know, you don't normally have footage of any of this type of stuff, so you just imagine that you remember you think about the climb with this building, you know, we already went into the scout, and they were practicing the camera positions, they flew it's grown up and down the building until I figure out the angles and all that kind of stuff. And so, I never, I don't think I'd ever done this before, but I kind of reached out to the production team, it's kind of like send me, you know, selects up the whole building, so I can remember all the different sequences better. And so they sent me just some visuals of the building, but then they also sent me some clips of me climbing different things. And I was like, oh, this is actually tremendously useful, because I can see, you know, how I'm doing it, and what I can do better. And just, you know, I was like, oh, this is great. - I love that you use visualization as a technique though. - Every climber does, it's a really big part of climbing. - And you're visualizing the process, the texture, the feeling, yeah, every detail that you could possibly imagine or know from, and sometimes you imagine, you know, the experience, like the consequences of it, or like, what if you do fall? Like, I mean, like, particularly with free song, I'll cab, like, with, I've spent so long kind of working on that. I mean, I thought about like, what if I fell from here, or fell from there, just because, and even though those are terrible things to visualize, because you fall into your death and horrible ways, because, you know, a lot of places falling off the mountain, it's not like a clean, it's not like I fell, and then you hit the ground, it's like you bounce, you know, hundreds of feet or a thousand feet and it's a disaster. But it's important to think about that stuff ahead of time so that when you're up there, you don't suddenly, for the first time, it's not like, oh, if I fell here, it would be horrible. It's like, no, you've already thought about that. You visualized, you processed it and you've chosen to set that aside and execute the climb anyway. Yeah, you've already sat with the discomfort of that feeling in a safe environment. Exactly. So now you can track them, bring that with you to this day. Yeah, no, you don't have to think about it while you're up there. Yeah. Hopefully you think through all that stuff ahead of time. And so far with the building, I haven't gotten too deep in all that yet just because I'm still kind of a ways out. I'm sort of focused on the physical side. And it's just not quite as close to my personal edge. I think I'm pretty sure. I think it should be well within my comfort zone, I think. So there's just not as much time to vote like, what if I die? Yeah. But you know, we'll see. No, no, I, but I love the visual. Do you, what's interesting to me because I'm thinking about all of us and I, you know, I think the smallest things in the world would be easier if, so for example, I've been public speaking for years and I've always asked for a picture of the stage so that I can visualize myself walking out so that I don't trip over when I go out there so that I, and I think about all the, and I'm giving a very human example of something that, that I hope my listeners can take away going, okay, well, how do I use that? I'm like, yeah, I visualize myself giving presentations. I visualized myself doing difficult things for the first time. I visualize pretty much everything. I use it as a technique. You're a trained visualizer, though. Yeah, I'm not a real tool for you to pull out of the box. For sure, but I would really encourage people to do it because hearing you talk about it, I'm like, yeah, you're visualizing all the details and what I love that you haven't once said and I want to ask you about this is you didn't just say, oh, I visualized myself getting to the top and celebrating. It's like, no, I visualize. You don't care about that. Yeah, yeah. I thought you didn't. That's what's about, talk to me about that because I think that's what today when we took what manifesting and visualizing people will have this visualized way you want to do it. Yeah. Who cares about that? That'll just follow. If that happens great, if it doesn't, whatever. Yeah, it's funny. I haven't visualized that. Actually, I mean, it's not totally true because the top of the building is this incredible little spire. It's like a small hole. It's basically the space between us. It's just a little dome. You stand on this tiny little pinnacle and it's incredible. The view is insane. I've already gone up there, climbed up through the hatch, just check it out and repel off the side and things. I know it's amazing and I know that it's going to feel amazing to stand up there. I haven't really visualized that because it's like when it happens, it happens. But no, you visualize this stuff that's important. Actually, talking about this, I think in some ways, if you're talking to the late person audience, whatever, I think maybe it's worth not framing it as visualization because over the years as a climber, I've always just thought of the day dreaming. It's like, because also as a climber, you spend so much time hiking to and from cliffs. I spend a lot of time by myself walking around in the mountains and you just spend a lot of time day dreaming, basically thinking about climbing. Occasionally, like a project like this, I'll intentionally visualize where I'm like, okay, I'm getting ready for a thing. But basically, anytime I go wandering in the mountain, I spend a tremendous amount of time just thinking about your mind's always wandering on something. It reminds me of wandering through climbs that you're excited about or things that you're thinking about or projects that you have, things on the back burner that you didn't quite do that you want to go back to. I mean, I think it's less daunting to think of it as like, oh, when you're out for a hike or out for a walk with your dog, you just daydream about things that matter to you. That is visualization. Yes. Yes. You can make it more focused and you can do it more intentionally. But the core is just imagining stuff. Yes. I like that. And the truth is, all of us are imagining, but most of us are imagining West K scenario. So we're imagining the meeting and going, oh God, I'm going to get fired today or that's how we imagine. I wonder about that because I don't really have that so much. I didn't think you did that. I do kind of wonder if I'm just a little less neurotic than average as a base, hard-wired, you know what I mean? It's interesting because I've read a, you know, I just read your book. I've read a ton of self-help type stuff over the years and all kinds of, generally I read it. I'm like, I'm already living my best life. I love my life. I'm doing what I love to do. I love the, and so for whatever reason, I love reading books like that because I feel like if I get one little nugget that helps me, it's totally worth it. But at the same time, I'm just kind of like, I don't know if this book was written for me. You know what I mean? I don't feel like I'm struggling with a lot of the things that it seems like some of these types of books are written for. Like I'm not struggling with inner turmoil around a lot of this type of stuff. I'm kind of like, you know, basically is that nature in nurtures? Is that just the way it is or is that a lifetime spent outside being scared and I don't know? I mean, I've, I feel like how much natural anxiety do you have? No, I feel similarly to you. Okay. Like you just never felt afflicted by like that. That was an hour ahead of reading, generally. Yeah, it was just not how I, and I think it's because I was exposed to so much of it when I was young. So I, I think it is the exposure of being overexposed to discomfort, anxiety, pain, stress. But I've seen that go both ways. So I've seen that lead to people becoming free of it or having less of it or being able to know how to manage it. I've also seen it go towards people. People in anxiety. Right. And then I've seen also people creating great success in order to protect themselves from it. And so there's almost like it can go in three ways. And so it's not that simply being exposed to discomfort makes you stronger. Yeah, it depends on how it depends on how the person reacts to it. It's almost like there's this old story which I love, which is like when you put three different things in boiling water, the different things happen to them. So it's like you put, you put a potato in boiling water, it gets softer. You put a egg in boiling water. It would get harder. You put coffee beans in boiling water. They let out the best scent. And so there's this old story that goes, which one are you? Are you, you know, an egg, a potato, or are you a coffee bean? Could you stand up? And so it's almost like the pressure of hot water. What does it do to you? And that's always been an interesting thing of, do we get to choose that? Or are we wired that way? Yeah, what does that look like? Yeah, but I think about this, I'm more or not, I have two little kids. And so, you know, like questions of nature versus nurture, I just think about a lot more because you're kind of like, you know, are we having any impact on these? Yeah. Like are they just fully baked as it is? How are you finding, I mean, treat just to it. Well, they're so young, it's hard to tell. But you just see so much innate in them when you're like, you're just your own little person. And, you know, there are probably things that we could do negatively to like negatively impact their development. But I don't know how much we're going to do positive. I'm kind of like, I think they're going to be fine. But in some ways, it takes the way a lot of this stress apparent thing where you're just kind of like, you know, I'm not trying to like shape them into anything. Like, I think they're going to be freaking great. We're just trying to make sure they're happy and safe and, you know, like have their material needs met and things and let them blossom into whatever they're going to blossom into. But we'll see. I mean, I'm just starting. I don't really know anything about that. I don't think we're just winging it. Yeah. No, I remember a friend, like I went up her and said, but I remember a friend that they raised their kid. We're like, their kid would be like playing with fire and like jumping up and down and running around and it's like, and I would, I didn't, I was much younger than I would, I didn't know their style. And so I would get scared when their kid was near a candle or something. And they're like, no, let the kid be near a candle. They'll figure it out themselves. Well, that's the, yeah, we're very much like them. Well, yeah, all this time about risk taking all that. I mean, I definitely, I think with the kids, you know, I was like, I don't want to see them get grievously injured, but I don't really mind them seeing them get a little bit injured. It was like, see them fall down all the time. Like that's fine. It's like, I mean, as a climber, you just fall down all the time and like you just get, you know, boo-boo, non-stop. And so like with the kids, you're just kind of like, yeah, that's fine to get hurt all the time. You just, but we're there to prevent catastrophic injuries and like, and now we kind of see that already with the kids where you're like, oh, you know, they just seem a little bolder than some other kids or age maybe. But then you wonder is that nature is that nurture? Is that because we allow them the latitude to explore like that? Or is that, you know, because it's my daughter and whatever, you know, I don't know, it's like my wife and I are already sort of adventurous people are like, and so are kids are too. I don't know. Yeah. You know, I'm like, we'll see. Yeah. Can you, can you be a climber and be a perfectionist? I think, yeah, I think you can be. I mean, in some ways, I actually think, I think I'm a recovered perfectionist in some ways. Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that my mom is like a major perfectionist like, like, like, psycho. And so I think we were sort of raised that way. It's like, that's the, that's the norm. But I mean, but the reality is like, I'm a very lazy person. Like I just often do the bare minimum and things that I don't care about. Or like the minimum requirement to, you know, whatever. And so I don't know, like, how do you reconcile like perfectionist tendencies? I mean, incredibly lazy. I don't know, it's tough. And so now I think, I don't know, I think I've hit a real sweet spot where it's like, I work really hard on the things I care about. And then everything else, I just don't stress. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, that to me, it seems to be a trait of highly high performers and successful people in general that they're able to know what- Well, focus on the thing that matters. I think that you can do. Yeah. Absolutely. And what not to waste time on and- Yeah. But it's taking me a long time to get there, I think. You know, because I think through early life, you're just so hung up on like appearances and what you should be doing, what you think you ought to be, you know, whatever. And then eventually you're just kind of like, you know, I'm only good at a couple things. I just focus on the thing I'm good at and just do it. Yeah. And just be happy, don't it? Yeah. Talk to me. I wanted to go back to you with saying that right now you're working out, dire, sleep. Like walk me through what that routine looks like. I love learning about people who live incredible lives and their different systems that they have in place to be able to pull off great feats. I mean, yeah, it's all normal stuff like eat well exercise. I mean, treat. I mean, treat. I mean, treat. So I'm eating a vegetarian basically, you know, mostly whole food. I don't know, like dinner last time was like tofu roasted broccoli and cauliflower and some like some purple sweet potato thing. I think that was it. Oh, and some brussel sprouts. But it's basically just a bowl of like vegetables and it's interesting, even like a couple months ago, I would have thought of that as a sort of inadequate dinner. You know, but like the last several weeks I've basically just been eating like whole foods and no sugar and like whole some meals and I'm kind of like, you know, I've just kind of like adapted to it. Like this feels good and I feel great and you have sleep and well and how much do you try and sleep and when do you sleep? Well, basically, I mean the babies have been waking up. Actually, we have like a, they'll be two and four in February. So right now is like one and three quarters or whatever. But for whatever is just waking up the middle of the night, a bunch right now, which is like a new, I think it's like an developmental phase. You know, it's like she's suddenly made a leap. But she's saying way more. But you're like, go back to sleep. I like all men. So we basically sleep from like 10 to 6 every day, like roughly eight hours every day. But then sometimes a little more or less. But then you, you know, the other night I got up at three and then just like made a bottle for my baby and like, you did a whole nother bedtime for a three in the morning. Like basically like read her story and put her back to bed. And it's kind of like, huh, well, an unusual night. Yeah. So, you know, I can't take it too seriously. It's not like, sure. But you know, it's enough though. We're sleeping well. I don't know if I'm vegetarian over a meat diet because I always cared more about the environmental impacts, like just the the the impact on the earth. But I also feel like it's a little cleaner. And I'm not like super uptight about it. Like, oh, you fish and in general, you meet if it's going to be wasted. You know, if like somebody has a serving, I'm like, oh, it's better than throwing it away. But I just don't buy meat. And I don't really do dairy. I think you find that a facial performance too. I think I'm kind of like doesn't tell her in a little bit. And I'm like, it's probably not like the best. But yeah, it's just but again, it's also better for the earth. I'm kind of like, oh, it seems better. Right. Interesting. The main thing for me is naive desserts. Like naive extra sugar. It just keeps everything. Yeah, dumb. So they're not talking. Well, I actually so interesting. I'm maybe like two weeks in eating really well right now. And you just lose the cravings. I feel so. Yeah. But you get past that. Yeah. I go through periods of being completely off. And then I have like, you know, during Christmas time, I'll probably. Yeah, exactly. Dave a little bit again. But when I'm off, I feel like my taste buds change. Yeah, you just feel so much better. Yeah, I know it's all the things you read about in books that you're just like, nah, that's stupid. And then you actually experience it. And you're like, wow, it does seem like it's true. I imagine it's the 22nd of January. What do you do? What's your ritual the night before? Is it different? Do you have a ritual? No, no. But the night before a big client. I mean, the day before we were resting, I might do some cardio or something. I'd go for like a light run or go, they're a bunch of really cool mountains like in the city. So you can go run around them. They're like monkeys in the jungle. So it's really cool. So you can like run around in the mountains a little bit. So I'll probably do some cardio or something, but basically no strain your exercise. And then, uh, yeah, I'll just go to bed early and, you know, just try to eat well and go to sleep. Basically, you just want it to be normal. Yeah. Because in normal day, it's chill. And then you wake up the next day and you do the thing. Yeah, it's, you know, when I'm hearing you speak about it, which is really refreshing is that it's such a. It feels like such a natural part of your life. Well, I think that's how you want to make it. Yeah. Yeah. Because then it doesn't feel extreme. Yeah. It doesn't, like, it doesn't require some crazy thing that you do. Like this is, this is what you do. This is normal. Yes. And I can, I can liken it to, and I'm only translating it because always thinking about our listeners, but I can translate it to in the past if I was sitting down with someone that I was a huge fan of and I built that up. It would actually make me a bad interviewer. Totally. Because you're all like, oh my gosh. You're on edge. Yeah. And I would do that when I first started the show and then over time, people saw me relax in and ease in. And sometimes I said to people, I was like, it's not that I wasn't super excited. It was just, I had to continue to do my job. You're all, keep it chill. I keep it chill. I got this. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So exactly what you're saying. So with, with free selling, I'll cap. Like I knew it would be the biggest thing I'd ever do. Like I knew, I mean, I didn't think the film would be as successful as it was, but I knew that it would be far beyond anything I'd ever done. Because it's a feature documentary and whatever. And I knew the climate would be insane. But at the same time, you know, the main challenge of free selling is psychological. Like I had climbed El Cap with ropes, you know, many years before I'd climbed it without falling off many years before. Like technically, I was physically able to do it many years before. But the psychological challenge, the believing you can do it, you know, when your life is on the line, that's like, that's a bigger challenge. And so I didn't want to build it up even bigger in my mind because you're like, the challenge is already psychological. I don't need to like pile on and make it even harder. And so a big part of my strategy with El Cap was to make it part of my normal year. And so like right after I free sell it, El Cap, I went on this expedition to Alaska, which is like a normal as a professional climber. You go on trips to places, you try to climb new walls, whatever. And so it allowed me to look at my 70s in that year. It's kind of building up for Alaska. And actually in the Alaska trip was because I went on an expedition later in that year to Antarctica. And I was kind of like, oh, I haven't been on skis and while it would be nice to like do some glacier travel and climb some big granite spires on snow, because it'll be good for Antarctica. And so I was kind of like, oh, you see how many seasons is building up for Alaska, which is building up for Antarctica. And so it took a lot of the pressure off having to achieve on El Cap or whatever. Because I'm like, oh, either way, this is practice for these other things coming up. And I mean, I knew that the other things don't freaking matter compared to free selling on Cap. But, you know, it's like, it's good to keep it, keep it feeling chill. And so I mean, I've always been into sort of stacking my goals in that way and trying to make sure that you don't let them get too big. You know, it's like, you keep it all, I don't know. Yeah. So the building's kind of the same way where I'm like, obviously that's more important than some of the other things I'm working on right now. But I do have a bunch of other climbing projects that are sort of intermixed with the training. And so it keeps it all feeling mellow. Yeah. And you sum it like El Cap or anything like that where you reach the top, how do you find you process that feeling? Like what does that feel like to you? Is it gratifying? Do you experience it? Yeah. I'm like, I'll be like, there's amazing. Yeah. I mean, without Cap, it was such a long and it was so on the edge of what I thought was possible. And so it meant a lot, you know, it meant a lot to me. I'd put so much into it and the pressure with the film grew and all the stuff. I mean, it was insane. So I definitely was like, this is amazing. I mean, the building too, I'm sure I'll stand on the top and be like, this is awesome. I'll be so psyched. But then, you know, I'll take the elevator down and be like, okay, what a day I was like, what a joy. I'm sure I'll be glowing like until I'm back home. But then as soon as I fly back to my own Las Vegas, I'll be back to normal climbing projects like things that because I wouldn't be at all surprised. Basically, there's several other things I'm trying to do at home as a sort of build up and training for the building. And I wouldn't be surprised if I don't manage to do any or all of them. You know, we'll see which things I managed to do. And so as soon as I finish the building, I'll just be back to try to finish my training goals, basically. Yeah. Is it right? You were talking about waking up and the baby being awake at night. Is this the first time you're doing a climb as a father and a husband? No, no, it's not. I mean, I've done a handful of things that are cutting edge with the kids. Actually, I did kind of my hardest, like, free solo to date for the spear. Like, it'll be this cool, like insane. It's a bunch of the same crew from free solo. So it's like the same, same co-directors and stuff. And so it's really fine to get them back together. And I free-sold this wall in Jordan. And then at least it's like 1200 foot sandstone wall. And it was probably, I told my wife, it's probably top 10 hardest things I've ever sold in. Which she was like top 10, like, kind of hard, because I've actually done way more than what's in the public, like on film. Because just building up to El Cap, I did like a ton of things that were that are very hard. And so this thing for the spear, that was probably the first thing I've done with kids where I was like, there's actually kind of cutting edge and pretty hard. And before doing it, I was kind of like, is this going to be different? Like, am I going to be up there thinking about my kids? I'd be like, oh god, this is so scary now. But I got up there and I was like, this is awesome. So it's like, this is amazing. Well, it's a really classic route. It's famous and it's really high quality. And so it was just up there. I mean, like, this is so amazing. And I felt great. So wait, you can experience that in the sphere in Vegas. In next fall, I think. So I got so cool. That's awesome. Yeah, we'll see. I think it's hard to film for something like that. It's hard to shoot on these crazy cameras. That makes us amazing. So we'll see how it turns out. But in theory, next fall, there'll be a thing like that. This might all need to get going. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like, I don't know. I know. I just went to watch Wizard of Oz then. Oh, it was cool. But it was insane. Yeah, I heard it was incredible. I was so blown away by it. And I can't imagine. Yeah, that's the things I think seen so long like that would be like insane. It would be amazing. Yeah. It would be a real experience. So it's interesting. You said that, you know, you've done to hear you say you've done crazy hard climbs that have never been documented. Well, not harder than El Cap. Right. But leading up to El Cap, well, actually, so let's see. I mean, I can remember. So leading up to El Cap, I had three other routes that were very, I mean, they're similar. They're not as hard and they're not as big, but they kind of led up to it. And one of them got filmed for YouTube, basically. And then the other two never, nobody ever even saw them. You know, like one of my friends saw one of them with binoculars from the parking lot. This one area, but like basically nobody saw any of the other stuff. One of them not only did nobody see it, like nobody was even in the climbing region. I went in and I'd been planning on prepping it for several days, but then my van ran on a propane. It was like this insanely long, windy road to go back to town. And I was kind of like, oh, I can't cook. And so I was like, screw it. So I just did the soul the next day. So I could drive back out and just leave 'cause I didn't want to, because I couldn't cook and I don't want to take a, whatever. So I was like, well, that's the ultimate, like rushed solo. You know what you're kind of like? Nobody saw it, nobody, there was no plan. I just like got it done and left. Yeah. So I've done a lot of things like that over there. Wow. Well, do you have conversations with your wife before you decide what you're gonna climb and stuff? Or is this kind of like, this is what I'm doing and? Yeah, for the most part, I mean, when we first met, I mean, like if you've seen the free film free solo, it all sounds pretty, you know, like, like I don't care at all about her feelings. And I think that gives us slightly wrong impression just because at that point, I've been dreaming about our cab for, you know, eight years or something and then I'd met, I actually met my now wife at the exact same time that we started filming for the documentary. So we filmed for sort of two years to make the documentary and so that was the first two years of our relationship. And you know, I was like, oh, she's amazing and this is great, but you know, it's some random person I met six months ago, like it's not gonna get in the way of a life dream. But now it's totally different because now I'm like, oh, we've been together 10 years, we have kids, we have a life together, like, you know, I live with like my in-laws and then, you know, it's all much more tightly woven and so her opinion matters a lot more for projects now. How did you know she was the right person? I don't know, she's just, she's so great. I mean, I think when I proposed, there was, I said something along the lines of, you know, like this is great. Can we just keep doing this forever? You know, like, it was like, why not? Yeah, yeah, I've never been into the big, romantic gesture type things. I kind of think the day-to-day life is, like one of the things that I think is great in our, in our, like, we have what we call sleepovers at night, like basically at night, we always chitchat for a really long time, which is detrimental to our sleep, but it's like, but whenever we go to bed, we always have like, you know, we chitchat for a while. And I'm like, oh, it's so nice, you know, it's like you wanna have a buddy that you chitchat with your whole life. I'm kinda like, I don't know, I'm gonna do that forever. I love that, man. Did she find out, obviously, what you do in "Spire"? Like, what's her take on it? Like, if she was here right now and I was like, describe what Alex does, like, how it feels for her, what would you say? - I don't know, I don't know. I mean, you know, she must be at least slightly impressed by it. I mean, she didn't meet me at a book about it. But at the same time, I don't think of it. - Yeah, well, actually though, she didn't really climb at the time, her friend was into it. And so her friend basically dragged her along, like, come to this event. And she had just gotten disillusioned with dating apps and she was like, the next person I see that I think is cool, I'm gonna give him my number. And so after that, I was like, signing books and she just gave me her number and I was like, cool. And so I texted her and then I'm like, - That's the thing. - Long story short. - That's awesome. - Yeah, yeah, it's cool. But yes, obviously she must care a little bit, but I don't think she cares that much. - Is she climbing to you? - Yeah, yeah. Now she's, she basically kind of started climbing a rough way at the same time that we, she had just started when we met. And so now it's been 10 years. And now she's quite a good climber. - Well, that's awesome. That's crazy. When you ever do a climb together? - Well, we climb together all the time. Not like extreme climbing. But yeah, we try to climb together as much as possible. Now with the two kids, it's a little harder for us to go out together. But then now, I mean, sometimes we go on sort of climbing trips as a family. And then the kids just run around the forest and play and we boulder. You know, it's like we're gonna do a family bouldering trip in France in the spring time. It's like a really famous bouldering destination. But it's amazing for the kids because basically a sandy forest with, you know, nice soft trees and sand everywhere. So the kids just roam and play. It's like really cool. - Is there a part of the world that you're fascinated by that you haven't visited yet? - As you saw at these days, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm fascinated, but I've never been. I've always wanted to and there's tons of climbing. But it's also kind of hot and humid. And so I'm sure I'll go at some point. But honestly, I traveled quite a lot before I had my wife and kids. You know, I was kind of a broad, like maybe three months a year or something for climbing trips. And a lot of that now, I'm kind of waiting until the kids are a little older. So I'm like, if I'm gonna travel, I'm gonna take the kids and I want them to be old enough to remember it and have a real life experience. So I think in general, our traveling is all a little bit unhold until kids are older. And then I'm like really excited to show them some of these places. - Do you believe your work has a message or a mission beyond personal joy and fulfillment and thriving in play or is it truly that is it? - I mean, not that big of a mission. I mean, so part of the reason that I started at the Honolful Foundation a long time ago, I mean, I started this foundation that supports community solar projects in the world was that, you know, I had a lot of work opportunities that I didn't necessarily need to take because I didn't need the money because I was living by myself in a band. I was kind of like, you know, I don't need to make this. I mean, this, a lot of the stem from one specific experience where I shot this commercial for a bank and, you know, and they wound up airing the commercial at time. And this wasn't even like, it wasn't even for me as like a famous climber or anything. It was like, sag rates or whatever, like screen actress girls, I'd just signed the normal contract, but they wound up using the ad a ton that aired all over the world. And so I made, you know, like six figures or something up of like a day and a half of shooting. And I was like, well, there's no justice in that, you know? And the thing is, is that it was work that I would have done for free because it's like, you're going out with your friends and you're climbing in some spire and they're shooting with a helicopter and it's super, you know, it's crazy. It's like super fun work. You're like, this is the total life experience that you would do as a rest day anyway. Because like, when you're shooting commercial like that, it's not like you're training, it's not like it's hard. And so you're doing it as a rest day and you're like, well, either I would have sat in my van and read all day or I can go like, climb the spire with my friend and obviously you want to do things like that. But I was kind of like, I don't need the money from it. I don't like need to do this type of work. And so part of starting my foundation was kind of like, well, it was a nice way to funnel all that, you know, sort of funnel the notoriety, the, you know, the money like all that stuff can just go into something that seems slightly more useful. Because I like saying yes to those types of opportunities, but it feels kind of, you know, it's not like I'm saving up for a yacht, you know, like I don't need that. And so it's nice to have like a reason to funnel it all into something. Yeah, that's awesome. And then you just launched your podcast, Planet Visionary as well, right? With, yeah, and for the future. Planet Initiative. Yeah, yeah, actually we didn't just launch the new season. I've done I think three or four seasons with them now. But yeah, that's like one of my favorite, you know, we're, I mean, you know, like interviewing people that are interesting. And yeah, so with Planet Visionary as I'm interviewing, you know, conservation is like marine biology. It's like basically people who are doing something useful in the world. And every time I have one of the conversations, I'm just like, oh, you come out of it feeling. Yeah, you know, inspired. Yeah, like Recharge in a good way. It's like kind of nice. Yeah. And so how are you picking? Are those people you know and friendly with or are they people that you're just fascinated by? No, they're often people working through the Rolex perpetual plan initiative. Because Rolex actually funds a surprising amount of conservation work like that. People don't really know that. But, but so a lot of them, you know, somebody like Sylvia or all who's like her deepness. She's like the Jane Goodall of the ocean. She's been a Rolex testimony since like 1950. I don't know. She's like, I think she's 90. She's still like scuba diving and, you know, creating marine protected areas around the world trying to like help protect the ocean. And so interviewing people like her, you know, they're just like part of this whole world. And then occasionally I interview folks, like I've interviewed a few like grantee partners from the Hanifying Nation, like some of the organizations that we've supported doing community solar around the world. Interview through them just to highlight the type of projects that they're doing and why, why those times projects matter. I mean, we're kind of always looking for good guests if you know, you know, somebody. Absolutely. Yeah, I was actually took because I became friendly with Munia recently from Rolex. And she was telling me about the show and everything that they were trying to do with it. And so I actually, there's a guest. I always, his name escapes me, but I met him recently and he was fascinating. So I left, I left. Oh, yeah, I told him. Yeah, I thought of him to Munia too. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna see Alex. I'll just tell him. Yeah, we were doing, you know, the first season or two is like Rolex ambassadors and things like that. And then you're kind of like, well, they're only so many. And it's like, and so you started like broadening it out a little bit. We're kind of like really anybody who's doing inspiring work protecting the planet is worth. I mean, and many of the guests that I talk to is like, it's interesting because they're doing conservation in a slightly different way or, you know, slightly different approach. I don't know, I like to think of the interviews as like kind of mini little TED talks or something where it's like, what's the little nugget that you're trying to give to the audience? Like, in what way can they see the world differently as a result of having listened to this? So, I don't know. It's pretty fun, fun interviews. I mean, as you know. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I'd love to, I'd love to. I wanted to ask you, Alex, I wanted to share one more thing, but I'm gonna wait for it to come through actually because I believe we have this. So I'm just waiting for it. It's now a good time. Oh, yeah. Okay, thank you so much, Nate. Thank you. Oh, this is so pro. I need a teleproper. Where's my? So, we had to do it for moments like this. So, Alex, we were so excited about what you're doing. And, you know, as I said, I'm such a fan from before that. It's really a joy to learn. It's, I find it so refreshing when I sit with someone who kind of busts every myth that you have about the thing, right? Like, I think we all have certain, it's like what you said, the questions you usually get asked or the kind of hype that's built up around. This is how this person breaks through fear and what they do. And then when I sit with you, I'm like, oh, I love how the way you approach it, is flow, is play, is real, is life, is joy, is, you know, and that's not what I would know or anticipate if I didn't sit with you deeply and have a really casual conversation with you. Yeah, you think it's extreme. Yeah, and I love that it isn't. Like, you know, it's beautiful when your bubble gets burst and the myth breaks because you get to understand a human on a deeper level. And so we'd reached out to your mentor, Tommy, who'd sent a letter for you. Tommy sent a letter. Yes. Oh my goodness. Okay. Okay. Would you like to read it? Would you like me to read it out loud? What would you prefer? What's better for you or you should read it. It's for you. So I'll read it to you. Yeah. Yeah. Austin was for a letter for you because you were coming on the show. Oh, well, how? I'm already hor- do I need to leave? I'm like, I need to leave you on like deep land comfortable. All right. So this is what Tommy said. He said, dear Alex, when this podcast asked me to write you a heartfelt letter, I had to laugh. Few things make one of the most mentally strong men in the world squirm more than public affection, especially from someone close, but I'm doing it anyway because people should know the man behind the fearless facade. When I climbed with you, mountain shrink to half their size. At first, I thought it was your system's an efficiency, but over the years, I've realized it's something deeper. You're unwavering belief in a positive outcome, more than free soloing that is your superpower. When you believe things will work out, they almost always do. You've helped me see that so much of what feels heavy or scary in life is mostly imagination. Whatever I come to you with relationship worries or questions about how my kids are growing up, you reframe things until they suddenly feel manageable. And every time you've been right, you bring humor and lightness to places no one else could, helping the people around you believe they can not only survive but thrive. Your bluntness, your unfiltered honesty might feel harsh coming from someone else, but from you, it builds trust. Someone close to you understands it comes from a genuine desire to see people reach their potential. I also wish the world understood your generosity. You create abundance in everything you do and then give it away to friends, to family, to everyone around you. Become from a culture that values obscurity, one that assumes famed dilutes intention. Maybe that's why calling you an entertainer feels strange, but you've shown that you can go big without losing who you are. And if the world is going to be entertained by anyone, I'm glad it's you. Knowing you and calling you a friend has been one of the greatest luck events of my life. I love you, man. Tommy. That's really nice. I was kind of like, did he write this and then as you got it, I'm like, oh, no, he wrote this. I'm like, no, that's incredible. I'm like, that's the nicest thing. That's so nice. I'm like, what is to my eyes reading? I've not seen him before now either. It's the team. I'm shocked. What a nice man. I wonder when he wrote this. He actually stopped by our house just the other day. They were driving for family Thanksgiving so they just stopped for a night just to camp along the way. I'm like, oh, so. How did you guys feel? Climbing. I mean, well, he was one of my childhood heroes. He's one of the most famous climbers in the world. Even when I was a kid, he was one of the best climbers ever. I was looked up to him and it was like, oh, one day, you don't want to be like him. At some point, we just met on the road, both two climbers. I think we were maybe in Squamish's Sput and British Columbia. Then I sought him out for a couple of climate objectives. Once we started climbing together, it was like a game on. Well, I loved what he said about you having the ability to reframe things. Would you say that's your superpower? Well, I mean, I think that's just normal. I don't know. I was like, why build it up as bigger than it needs to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. He does jokingly call me an entertainer because I've done TV shows and things now. He's always like, oh, you're an entertainer. And I'm like, no, because I like to at least think of myself as more of a high performance athlete or whatever. I used to jokingly call myself a high performance clothing model because when you're a professional climber, it basically means you're sponsored by a pair of companies. And so I was like, oh, I'm a clothing model, but I send. You know, like I go hard. And now Tommy's like, oh, you're an entertainer. You're just like a TV personality. But I'm like, no, but send it. You know, but the thing is, I don't mind being a TV person out as long as you can actually do the thing you're trying to do, which is like climb hard, climb well, like do things that you're proud of. Yeah, absolutely. But Tommy, what is what is sweet man? What else do I got to you? What else is what else is like? Well, resonate with you. Yeah, I don't know. It's just all. Now, it's a beautiful life. It's very heartfelt for a man who knew you were going to run out the room when you heard. I know that station. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing makes me swim like public affection. So should somebody glide that's so true. Yeah. No, I'm so I'm so impressed that you wrote this. Well, you can keep it. Yeah. No, I should put this on my wall. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm like, what a nice holding to it. Do you do that for guests? It's like a tiny occasion. Very red. We don't do for everyone for the right type of guest. Yeah. For the right guest, who we feel that a exciting moment doing something new, doing something fresh. Like, interesting, but it feels right. That's such a nice, that's such a nice idea. It's one of my, it's one of my favorite things to do because I feel like, like he said, like I think in our day today, we love people, but we don't, we don't say it like that. And you don't get many chances in life to reflect. And so I know I love reflecting on people. And I've appreciated when people have done it for me. And it's, yeah, it's one of my favorite things to do. I have this activity I do with when I'm doing workshops in companies sometimes where I'll take a group of leaders who, despite achieving great things, their biggest worries that their bad parents, because they're so busy. And we always have their kids write a note to them and it's stuck under their chair. Oh, that's like, and it's really special because that seems like what works in them. And you also get to see what kids actually value versus what you think they value. So you're thinking like, oh, when I bought them that big gift and when I took them on that fancy vacation, it's like that kid just remembered you've read a story to them before they went to bed last night. Like that was the win. The win wasn't some, you know, grand gesture or some big event in their life. It was this tiny moment where you actually present. So, um, but Alex, oh, come on, you're going to say something. I'm just like, oh, I'm so touched. It's funny. I mean, you know, I just read I think like a mug. And this someone, one of my friends is just asking me like, oh, what do you take away? It's like, what do you feel like you gain from it? I was like, oh, there's a lot, you know, around like kindness, compassion, things like, you know, caring service, like all these types of like, then I was like, you know, I think I have a lot of room for improvement all of those things. You know, because there's a lot in the book that I'm kind of like, yeah, no, this fine. I got that. And then, you know, basically the whole second half of the book, I'm kind of like, hmm, like that's, that's not quite my sweet spot. And I'm like, yeah, like there's, there's something to be learned there. It's like, oh, it's, yeah, just give something to think about. Yeah, sweet Tommy. What did you say? Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Alex, we end every episode of on purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence. Yeah. And so, Alex, on all these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? I'll just go for it. Just try. That's my advice. It's work for you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is more than one sentence. Please. But, but yeah, I mean, it's better try something and fail than to not try it. Yeah. There's second question. Does failure even, do you even ever think about failure? Well, I feel your means death. And yeah, you think about a lot of it. No, I don't know. Can I give more than one? Yeah, because it's interesting because in climbing failure, like basically as a climber, you fail all the time nonstop. Like, as a climber, you basically try projects and you fail on them over and over and over until the one time you succeed and then as soon as you succeed, you move on to the next thing. And so like yesterday, I failed on a project that I'm working on on and off for like five or six years or something. I've been trying it forever. It's like my life, and I almost did it yesterday and hopefully I'll do it on Sunday, which is the next day I get to go back there. But basically, I will spend years, literally years failing on something and I'll do it once, which will represent about 13 minutes of high performance activity where I try really hard. It might even be less than that. I'm not sure how long it takes to climb, but it's like in the minutes. And then after years of failure, I'll have six minutes of success and then I'll move on to the next thing. So as a climber, it's like, you don't really to find it success and failure because you literally, you spent all your time failing. Yeah. That makes a lot sense. Again, they exposure therapy. Yeah. You're just always failing. But that's the whole point. The whole point is to go out and try things that are hard for you. So by that definition, you're not failing. You're just going climbing, like climbing is failing. Question number three, what's something that you used to value that you don't value anymore? Sort of say, I mean, maybe like the public acclaimed to some extent, I think, you know, when you're alone in your van, kind of like, I just want to like be known basically as you can get laid. You're going to like, Oh, I just want to meet somebody, whatever. And then once you actually have something like, you're like, I don't really need all that. But how long did you spend in that van? I think I live in the van 12 years. 12 years. Yeah. I want to do my own hands. And yeah, I mean, I had some girlfriends on off and very saying, and yeah, but basically lived in the van from the 20 to 30. Yeah, maybe a little more than that. Were you happy then? Oh, yeah, it's great. But I just knew that I wouldn't want to do that my whole life. What was it that made you happy then? But knew it wasn't where you live. Oh, living in a van is amazing when all you're trying to do is climb at your at your limit. But barring even the obvious, like, you'll lose motivation. You just don't care. You know, after 10 or 20 years of doing something nonstop, full tilt, you're like, you know, do I need to do another 20 years of that? And I knew the one day I'd want a family and, you know, it's like my aspiration is to die at 80 with grandkids around me. And it's hard to do that if you live alone in a van. Is that really the dream? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. That's the way some of my grandparents died. And I'm like, that's a great way to go. With that, make you feel content. Like if you were looking back on your life at 80, what do you think would stand out to you? Well, on my grandma, one of my last grandma died at 95, I think, you know, surrounded by family. I'm kind of like, that's a good way to go. Like I would be delighted to have that have that play on. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. It's my wife. I named my daughter after my beloved grandmother. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and really like, is there anything better? You know, it's like when you're dying of old age surrounded by family and you had a good enough relationship with them. that they're naming their children after you, like, great success and call it good. Absolutely. Alex, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I did? No, I don't know, by all kinds of questions for you, but we can chat after that. Absolutely. Alex, it's been such a joy getting to know you. I feel like I totally got such an education in what it really means to be fearless in a way that I didn't expect. And those are my favorite types of conversations where I'm pleasantly surprised, blown away, inspired and excited to see what you do on the 23rd of Jan. And even though you won't care, I'll be really happy for you and I'm watching. But thank you so much, and I hope we can stand tight. Oh, I know. I appreciate that. That was total pleasure. Thanks, Alex. I appreciate it. That was awesome, man. Thank you so much. Great. If you love this podcast, you'll love my episode with Lewis Hamilton. Lewis and I talk about why you should stop chasing society's definition of success and how to be more intentional with your goals. You don't want to miss it. You're like, it's not about being perfect. It's about just every day, one step at a time trying to be better, trying to do more. I'm learning a lot about myself. 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Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delarocha on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on biggie when you feel uncomfortable? I don't want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prince Music Is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist, 12 months, 12 areas of your life, money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast, it's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prince Music Is Therapy, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.