Alanis Morissette: Anger, Attachment, & Postpartum

(swoosh) (upbeat music) - What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy daddy daddy daddy daddy daddy. - Alanna's more set. Welcome to call her daddy. - Thank you for having me. - You are such an icon. Let me just gather myself. Let me just hold on. I need to take a deep breath. - So do I, my friends. - All of my friends were like no pressure. And I'm like, okay, well now you're making me feel pressure. One of my friends specifically is the biggest fan and she was like, I'll just come do the interview for you and I was like, you need to go. - What are their questions? - No, literally. She was like blowing me up. Shout out, Meg, if you're watching this, I love you. I hope I do you justice. - Thanks. - Okay, I need to give you your proper intro. At 21 years old, you shattered records, selling 33 million copies of your album, Jagged Little Pill, winning five Grammys, including Best Album. And since then, you really have continued to release music that I think gives people the permission to feel angry and messy and complicated. And I just love every single thing that you stand for. So thank you so much for giving me your time. It is such an honor. - Oh my gosh. Thanks for saying that and mirroring me so generously. Of course. Of course. Okay, your song, "Ironic Will Forever Be One of My" favorite songs to scream in the car with my girlfriends, as I'm sure it is millions of other people watching. But what does it mean to you that new generations continue to discover your music and to fall in love with you and what you stand for? - First, when the record came out in 1995, it was a wild experience. And I saw quickly that people were using this music in a way that felt inspiring for me to stay in the public eye as an introvert, I had ambiguity about all of it. And I saw that it was supporting people and uplifting people, or reminding people of who they were, or giving them permission to feel anything. And I thought, this is a good reason to stay here and keep going. For me, it was glimpsing inside way too much information. I can spend a few minutes writing a song and then get back out. So I'm much better now at 52 at going in pretty consistently. But songwriting was terrifying in that way because it would come through and then-- - And then it's out for the entire world. - Yeah, and then it's out there anymore, then it's yours. Then I have nothing to do with it almost. - You also just performed that song on stage with Olivia Rodrigo. - Yes. - I know mentoring young artists is something that you're so passionate about. How did you two first meet? - I don't even remember. I think we met at the Rolling Stone cover shoot together. - Yeah, I just, you know, there's nothing better than supporting young people in being who they are and not having to figure it out in the '80s. - And especially, I think, as women in this industry, you have so much that you have learned and continue to learn. So I think that anytime we can pass that down to future generations, it's such a blessing of like, oh my God, because I'm sure you like, oh, I wish I knew this. Here you go. - Yeah, or I wish I had someone, I definitely had the, will you be my mommy for a long time in the mid '90s? Like, will there be some mentor, some group of women who kind of rush in and scoop me up and the answer was a hard no? But now it's a hard yes. And I think consciousness has changed to the point where that which was really confusing or overwhelming or weird or woo-woo, which that word has gone now. I just think now people are understanding what some of us were talking about the whole time and it feels strange. I didn't expect it. Let's talk about the '90s. What do you miss most about that decade? - I miss sitting around doing nothing. (laughing) I feel like you were doing a lot. (laughing) Yes, but also, you know, as an artist and as someone who expresses oneself as a career, it's a lot of it. A lot of the writing is just sitting and letting the mind wander or listening or you can call it channeling. We call it whatever the frick, but it's basically listening, heating, and answering the call. - The '90s also, I feel like everyone talks about fashion. - Yeah. - And the trends keep coming back. What is something that is in your closet that is from the '90s that you still put on today or you still look at and you're like, I still stand by that fashion decision. - I have some L'Aunveille boots and I have some dress really early work. I keep a lot of it in archive, but the one thing I notice about the '90s and it kind of reinvigorating now is that back in the '90s, we weren't like cute and wearing cute ill-fitting clothes to be cute, it just didn't fit. So also, if you're gonna chase the '90s, which seems to be really cool to do now, you gotta tweez your eyebrows to tiny. If you mean it, if you don't mean it, where you really gotta lean in, like you had to commit to it or it's not you're not even gonna get close to it. - Yeah. - We cannot talk about fashion also without talking about sex in the city. You guest start on sex in the city and you kissed the Carrie Bradshaw. Were you a fan of the show before you went on? - Yes. - And I reached out to them and I said, might it be a nice time for Carrie to experience a lesbian moment? (laughing) And they said, well, yes, we were thinking the same thing. - You came up with the idea? - Well, I think we literally had the same idea at the same time. - That happens. - That is, that makes it even better. - Yeah. - Wow. - It was a win-win. - Well, and I also feel like, at the time, it wasn't very common to see a bisexual character written into television. - Yeah. - And so what did it mean to you to be a part of a moment like that? - It's amazing. Yeah, anything that opens up and pulls us out of the locked binaries, a loving act, I think. - Do you think you knew, though, at the time, like how groundbreaking it would be when people saw that on TV? - Was it groundbreaking? (laughing) - Kind of. - Okay. - You're like, I just want to bow with my dialects. (laughing) - I just, I do iconic shit. - That's one of the things that I do as well. - I just dropped mics and keep walking. - No, you do. - I'm just joking. - No, you do. - Sometimes. - I feel like when people talk about you, we're always talking about how you've broken barriers. And I think a great example of that is, you created your own record label at 13 years old. Now, Alanis, I feel like I'm gonna speak for myself and also the collective, when I say, I was not doing anything like that at 13 years old. - Probably this. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I need to understand like, how did that even come to be at that young of an age? - Yeah, I started writing songs at nine and I sent it to a friend of the family who's since passed away. And he heard it and created track for it. So when I went to visit him, he had a track fully prepared and I said, "Who's gonna sing this?" My brothers have informed me repeatedly that I can't sing. And he's like, "Well, they're lying." - Leave it to your brother also to just humble you. - Yes, just take you out. So I sang it and then that was that. And then we went to chop a record deal and back in those days, they weren't signing little children. Now they just go right up the vagina into the uterus and get the signature and come back out and wait, I guess. Is your child signed to a deal yet? - Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. We got an agency set up. - Can you buy just a lot? - So that was not happening then. And so I basically started a record company with my friend Lindsay and we put it out on the record company at, I was 11, yeah. - That takes a certain level of confidence. Like were you always a young confident child? I think my parent, there's so many stages of development, attachment, exploration, identity, competence. My parents knocked the confidence one out of the park. Definitely saying you can do anything you want. - Oh, that's such a gift. - Yeah, that's a big one. - I mean that change, that can change your life, obviously. 'Cause I think a lot of times people have to struggle with that their entire life and find a way to find confidence because their home was the place they did not feel most confident. - Right. - So to have that within your parents, were they at all nervous about you, though, getting into this industry? Apparently not. (laughing) - And did they have any background in it themselves? - No. - So they had no concept of the industry. - And they just were like, go for it, Lannis. - You're gonna crush. - It's really that simple actually. - Did they have any idea for you prior to that of what they hope to you would become? - No, I mean my dad was a grammar guy and my mom, my parents are, they have that go-getter thing. It's in the DNA of the marrow of their bone. - When you talk about your experience in the music industry, you've said you were put in a lot of male dominated spaces at a very young age. What did that even look like for you back in the day when it first started? - Just a room full of, you know, 12 men in suits. And I just remember being really overwhelmed. Like I didn't even know what the word publishing meant. I didn't know what these contracts were that were being put in front of me at 14, I didn't know. So I would run upstairs to my room and cry. I remember I burned my journal in the fireplace. Just thinking, you know, this is the end of a normal life for me. And then I signed the contracts and that was it. And I still didn't really know. - Rewind for two seconds. Why were you burning your journal in the fireplace? - Because I talked about all these people that I had crushes on and I just didn't want anyone to find that out. - Meanwhile, it's like a full gold in there, platinum. You're cold. - Oh, blah! - No, baby. - You're like, "Why did I burn it?" - No, literally. - Shouldn't have burned it. - I actually have legit diary burning regret. It's a thing. - And so you just, why? 'Cause you were just like, "I don't want to lean into these emotions "and these feelings." - Oh, no, no, no. I wanna lean into the feelings. I just don't want anyone to know anything. I just got really hidey. I'm an introvert. So this whole life that was sort of presented as an option, I just thought, wow. How am I gonna do this? I'm a poodle inside a black stallion. It's like the black stallion's lovely and awesome. But the poodle, the nervous system, you know, so. - But also, what's so crazy is to even hear you say that. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, you are the break up anthems that you've written, the push and pull dynamics between the person that you're in love with or that you hate or you both. - Or both. - Yeah, it's usually both. To hear the way that you have been able to pen to paper and then release that into the world. And to hear you be like, oh, I wanted no one at first to hear any of this. How did you get through that? - I'm fine with everyone hearing everything. I didn't want anyone to know because there's layers of vulnerability. And I do receive a lot of comments around how is it possible to be that publicly vulnerable and empowered? And I'm like, first of all, thank you. But you can do both. You can be empowered and vulnerable. I can be comfortable sharing that I feel anger and shame and guilt and fear and joy. But I might not want you to know the seven people I'm obsessing over right now. - Maybe not. - But also did you ever change like light little details 'cause you're like, I refuse to let him know this one's about him. - Oh yeah, I never tell anybody anything ever. - But do you think your, some of your exes knew it was them? - Well, here's the thing. If you're calling me up, which some of them did. And saying, is that song about me? - We're done. - Really? Okay. - You're like, well, does the shoes fit? - You tell me, right? - Does this resonate? - Right. - And it does to the point where you're calling me. - Aren't we done? - We're done. - We're done. - This wasn't written for some overt revenge. I love revenge fantasy. Just keep it a fantasy. Write about it or sing about it. - That's the best way I do it. - But real revenge is, nobody wins. - Yeah, but real revenge does end up happening when your name is, like, and then you put it out. And then it's like, everyone is gonna listen to this. That's a pretty good form of revenge. - Okay, okay. (laughing) - Okay, Alex, you're like, yeah, yeah, whatever you say. No, that's totally true. - You, I think it's important also to emphasize, you reference all these men and these suits and you being like, I didn't know what, getting published men. Like, I just was a talented young woman who had a very, very specific skill obviously. And everyone saw that you had that skill. And so everyone's going to be interested in monetizing that. But back then, I don't think we really had the language or the understanding to even call certain things for what it was, like, oh, that's a double standard, or this is gaslighting, or that, yeah. All these beautiful new words. - Right, that's emotional abuse. That's the patriarchy. That's missalverd. - That's emotional abuse. - A lot of that. No language to explain a lot of times how specifically I think women were feeling. In what ways did you feel yourself up against that push and pull of, like, I feel like something's off here, but I don't know how, with what this is. Well, there was a lot of extraction and exploitation. So already there's a dehumanization. The fame one is a whole other concept, a conversation, but in those rooms with the soup peeps, there was no attunement or empathy, a lot of personality disorders, a lot of misogyny, a lot of just hate of the feminine. Not just women, it's like, we hate women, yes. But we also hate the feminine. We hate vulnerability, but we want it. We want tenderness, but we can't say we want it. There's just so many indoctrination conversation of how we're supposed to live, what we're supposed to want, how we're supposed to present. Meanwhile, we're all animals, we're all humans with a little neo-frontal, doing our best. And isn't it so weird when you say that too? It's like the men who hate that so much, but a lot of these men are recognizing this is what will sell. So they're not afraid for you to put it in the song and to have it released. - Oh, they love it. They love it so much, but behind closed doors, they're still hate. - They're still hate. - They still hate. Well, it's also, people were very generous by saying, oh, you know, you've changed the game. You know, there was a point in time where it was, you know, if we called a radio station to see if they would play one of my songs, they would say, we can't play it, we're playing "Chanate." Or we can't play it at this radio station, we're already playing "Tori." - One woman. - So that all changed, and it was a beautiful, I just felt like I volunteered to ride the hugest wave. I put my hand up before the question was even asked somehow, and the wave was happening without me. And I just happened to be on it. And I said, yeah, put me at the front. I'll get my head chopped off. - Don't, do you think though, Alanna said that comes from just something within you that you were born with, or something that you actually were taught? - Rage, yeah. Best activism is rage-fueled. - Anger is such a powerful emotion, which I think we all should lean into, which I wanna talk to you about because, oh, we're gonna get there, but it's like to recognize where it's coming from to have some control over it for yourself and understanding. - That's containment. So that's like, you know, reading a room, being discerning, is this appropriate here? And getting older, it's like, oh, rage just transmutes into this, I mean, it's always beautiful. I think anger's beautiful, I think rage is trauma. If we're raging, we're traumatized. If you're a woman in the world of patriarchy, how are you not enraged if you're really looking at it every day, every day? - So that's not going anywhere. - I'm getting enraged right now. - I wanna, but I want something, not at you. - Not at you, together, together for that little literally. You have said that men often referred to you as mature for your age, and you thought it was to justify it in their own bodies, like they needed it to be true. - Can we talk about how men do this, and why they do this, in your opinion, from what you've experienced? - Why they tell a young person that they're poised and why's beyond their years to justify their sexual predatory actions? - And it's so transparent. And yet, when it happens to a young woman, when you have freeze response, we fight, flight, freeze, collapse, or appease or befriend. All five of them are great, but freeze is just kind of the normal one, on an animal level, you're being predatored, and you can't do anything about it. - And at a young age, we don't have the wherewithal, 'cause we haven't had the life experience as a young girl to even understand, so you naturally take that as a compliment. You're like, amazing. So I can hang in the room with the suits, but it's also on other-- - But it's reductive. - Of course. - Yeah. - Of course, if you don't know that, though, in the moment fully-- - Not when you're young, and especially if what's been described to you as your only, as your one gift as Joe and little women would say, is your sexuality and your come hithertoness. So at what age at this point, young people, through puberty, they reach a certain age, and then all of a sudden, there's a different kind of gaze. It's terrifying. - It is terrifying, and at some point, you also wish that there were adults in those rooms, who would recognize the obvious power and balance, and help the young woman understand that that is not a compliment, and they're going to do everything to protect them from that person who is clearly a predator, and yet, we continue to be let down. - Well, yeah, we're in the dome of patriarchy. Nothing's gonna be fixed in there. We're just gonna run in circles. So I'm over here. So instead of spending in a northern amounts of time talking about how the patriarchy is just not helping anybody, just come over here. And talk from here. - And talking also is such a weapon because it is a threat to them and the more we keep talking about it and exposing it, then their rage comes out. - And I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, am I making you uncomfortable? Like, you've made us uncomfortable? - Yeah, like a less 10,000 years. - 10,000 years. - Uh-huh. I also read your former business manager, as if it couldn't get worse, stole millions of dollars from you. How did you first even realize this was happening? - Something felt weird. A woman's intuition. - Uh-huh. - Okay, and what did you do when you had that gut feeling? - I just kept going into the new business manager's office over and over and saying, I need more information because something's up. And I don't know what. And I kept coming into the point where God bless, they said, why are you here in this boardroom? And I said, I still don't have the answer yet. And so my husband was sitting next to me and he was going through papers and he noticed some inconsistencies. Anyway, what's up with this? And then we called everyone into the room, they looked at it and they said, we'll get back to you. And then at first, it was like, do you spend cash over there? - Yeah. - On ballet. That is. That's a unique one, it is and it's also a It's at face value, yes, it's like the money, but it's like the entitlement to your earnings. - What was beautiful about it was that I just stayed the course one foot in front of the other, just keep showing up. And then when I spoke at the trial or the sentency hearing, the judge was a woman. And she was like, I just looked right at her. It was really actually quite corrective for me. - Yeah. - But also money, right? - Of course. - When a bias against wealth, bias against women, bias against women knowing. - Oh, well, even it's like you having all the right to be asking those questions and the amount of times that you needed to ask four more times. - And it's still don't get an answer. - And it's your money. - Yes. - And somehow, and it's like you know if a man walked in there and said show me my, it'd be like, and they'd show it to him. But it's like, and then the betrayal and the mistrust that comes from that, you're like, and you all wonder why we're angry. - Yes. - And that's just the iceberg tip. - Oh, sweetie. - It's just that I get mad. - I told you, I told you in your baby. - Okay, let's start, I wanted to get into this topic because you want to know was intentionally the lead single on your breakthrough album because you said you wanted to open with anger to people who don't understand what we're even talking about. Can you explain your thought process around that decision for that single? - Well, the thing about patriarchy is, there's a reduction imposed on women. So for me, I knew that being a complex human being with 75 multi-dimensional layers might be a little much for some. I was dumped many times for my multi-dimensionality. So the messaging basically was just reduce yourself and everything's gonna be okay and try to be quiet if you can. So a hand in my pocket was an option and ironic was an option as first single. And I remember thinking, no, we just have to just put you ought to know out and then we talk 'cause I had too much rotos, I had too much energy to not have that be first. And then that I could speak to effortlessly. How did your team feel about that? Okay, no, you're like, well, my team of suits, no. Yeah, they were into it. I mean, they definitely, when they first got the record, they said, this is a little caustic. This is a little intense for us. And I said, well, if you wanna a Dan Steely record, why don't you sign a Dan Steely? And they were like, it's Steely Dan, you're getting it. Oh, right, I'm 19, I'm caustic, right? Well, and it's also like you coming out and having this single that is, you know, leading with this anger and this rage, which is so enticing for so many women, obviously, because so many women didn't feel like they could have that. But also, there are songs that obviously have joy. It's this dichotomy of a woman that gets everyone in a frenzy of, oh my God, how can she be both? And I think it's very unsettling for a lot of people. You leaning into the anger at first. Did you feel like there was any initial conversation or backlash around that? There was terror and resistance, but that's just normal. I mean, what? No, that's Tuesday. I just can't get over, though, how? And maybe it's also because I'm meeting you where you're at right now, but I have a feeling if I met you even back then, it feels like it was similar. Like, there was no apprehension from you or nerves around like, oh God, are people going to crucify me? Like, are people going to think I'm crazy? 'Cause that is what happens with a lot of women if we come out as angry. They're like, oh, she's insane. Yeah, the seaweed, of course. Yeah, but, you know, at that point, projects on to me all you want. Project that I'm the antichrist, project that I'm terrifying or too much, right? My whole life, I've just heard that I'm too much. And at this point, I'm at menopause time. I'm just like too much. You mean exactly who I am? Yeah. Do you think that when you were in your teens and 20s, did you ever have a moment where you were by yourself in your room being like, this is a lot to bear the burden of? Every time I put a record out without fail, I wake up at four in the morning, the morning of release and have a full panic attack. I mean, I'm always nervous. People are like, how do you deal with your nerves? I'm like, I don't know. No, I get that. It's almost like, yes and. Yeah, I'm nervous, but I'm also here. And I have the decision to either put this thing out and go with my gut. And yeah, I can be nervous as hell and want to vomit and hopefully no one sees. Or I could just say, right, or everyone sees, perfect, so beautiful, right. Or you can freeze and you cannot do anything with it. And then you're just left wondering, what if? Well, then you're in your 50s going, I want to make up for some last time. And which is also, do it when you can do it. You can. One question I do have to ask about that time also aside from the anger is, I feel like some of the lyrics, which I love, were a little sexually ahead of their time maybe? Yes. Quote. And are you thinking of me when you fuck her? Are we? It's a great question. I mean, it's a legit curiosity. Do you remember if there was any backlash or around that, lyrically? I believe there was, and I talk about it in the butterfly with the machete show, there was a moment while writing you want to know where I thought, well, just write it, don't edit, don't censor, as always. And then later, if I have to take a swear word out, I'll take it out. And I remember having said that to Glenn Ballard, and he turned to me and he said, why? And I said, well, I don't want this to turn into the lead character of the song, you know? And he said, but if you felt that way, yes. And I said, yes. And he goes, so there it is. And God bless him for that level of support. Did you ever feel like you were punished for refusing to be more palatable? Yes. I think a lot of people who were reaching out to me were trying to figure out what I was doing. And I couldn't even explain it to them. Like, a lot of people in the industry and then a lot of people who wanted to date me, I was very reticent. Because why? Like, with fame, I love this part, by the way. Someone's sitting across from you, telling you how much they admire you, how much you've been a catalyst in their life, how much you validated, empathized, uplifted, all of those things. Amazing, right? The greatest? And you're not seen. Because it's not about you. So I've really been deconstructing this whole idea of fame, because fame used to be a means to an end, Joni Mitchell, or commentary on the Vietnam War. Like, it was a means to an end. Now fame is the end. Now fame is some panacea, apparently, no. But a lot of people are just like, I want fame. For in and of itself, and as some of us know, who've had the privilege and horror of being inside it, it's a very complicated social construct. And for me, I thought, oh, there could be some attachment correction here, eye contact, and the opposite is true. Fame amplifies any pain, it amplifies any trauma, amplifies everything. And now you're in the public eye. And now people can't necessarily even see you as the human being, because you're filling the blank for them. Yeah, that makes me think about that year you were on the cover of Rolling Stone. And the headline was Angry White Female. Do you remember your reaction when you saw the magazine? I was like, female. [LAUGHS] Interesting presumption. No, I again, same state of being as the pick you out and I was the first single. Great. Whatever you need to call me. I know you have to call me one thing, because you can't possibly hold space for the multitudinousness that is all humans. So yeah, you want to pick one, anger's great, go. I don't care. It didn't get under your skin at all. I loved it. Because I got to talk about feelings and anger. That was the best. Right, and do you think you're someone more also at that point that was like, and if they're talking, who gives a shit? I wasn't that advanced. OK. I also operate from an inside out approach. And some of that has maybe a little blind to the receptivity or lack of receptivity. But I hear about it later. How do you think for any woman listening? Because sometimes it is really difficult when labels are placed on you, like we said, the C word, and you're crazy, and you're this, and you're that, and you're angry. How do you think throughout your career you've personally learned to strip those labels of their power? And if anything, just make them positive for you or use them to your advantage. Well, the ones that hurt, I just do inner work with those. So if someone says, I don't even know at this point, I've used a lot of the words in the press over the years. Because there was a lot of hate. There were websites constructed to figure out how to murder me most elegantly. And so, Alannis, I love how you just drop these things casually. And you were about to go right past them, like, you're like, what? How the-- what? Well, there was a lot of hate. And it was a-- very, very out there. And a lot of people, a lot of artists whom I respected and lived for, were disparagingly speaking about me later, Shenate Apologized, which was really classy. But yeah, I mean, it was, it was not a girl squad. There were no girl squads. How did you find support during that time? Like, were you close with your family therapy back then? Oh my god, I have a whole team. I love freaking, and a lot of parts work. So if I read something in the press that triggered me and I felt terrible, obviously that part needs a little dialogue here because, and so it became shadow work 101 for me. Can you give an example of something back then? I know probably doesn't now, but anything back. Courtney Love was calling me fake, which is so funny. And she also apologized later and said very kind things. But, um, so fake would be one. And as an example, I would take fake and go, kind of person is fake. Someone who's maybe lying, lying to themselves. Do I lie to myself? Yeah, lie to myself. Let's talk to the part that lies to myself. Okay, what do you need? What wisdom do you have? What action can I take on your behalf? Just, and every little part in here that is trying that maybe acting out or behaving in a terrible horrifying way, like maybe you want to take me out. They're all trying to protect. They're all trying to help. So a lot of the things when you would get criticism, it would hurt, which I think makes me a lot of sense. Of course, and the ones that hurt the most were ones where you really needed to do some looking at it. And fake, that's how you know, because if someone says, oh, Lannis, you're really, if someone says something that's not a trigger for me, it's water off a duct bag. Of course. So for me, if something's not water off a duct bag, let's look at it. There's also this thing where it's so fun to be able to look back and have perspective. And everyone's like, oh my gosh, you were such a trailblazer at the time. And you did all these things. But then a lot of the times when you have those conversations with those type of people, if you actually were in it in their day-to-day and living it during the time, it was hell for them. They were getting scrutinized and hatred. There's websites telling, figuring out how they can murder you. And we miss all of that. But a lot of times to actually make certain change, you have to go against the grain, which you were doing. But then we're still doing that. We are. But also to hear that a lot of the people around you in the industry were not receptive towards you. Well, yeah, they were upset. I was, you know, it's like people being jealous of Taylor Swift. And I think the implication there for me was that the presupposition on the planet was that there's one throne. Only Alex can sit in the throne, everybody. Everyone else you fail, you lose, you're ugly by. What's that's patriarchy? That's scarcity mindset. And isn't that so crazy? It's like then they want to put a stake through you because you're sitting at the top. It's also like, if not you, then there's going to be someone else. And then are we going to take them down to and we see the cycle repeat. Yes. And it just repeats. All right. Of course. Of course. And for me, also, I've noticed, because I've been in the public license, so I was 14. It goes like this. You know, I loved you. I hated you. I loved you. I hated it. And Taylor talks about that. Uh-huh. You can never be loved forever. I mean, you can. But that's in the underneath underneath. True. And if you're going to be loved forever, you probably have come, you have a version of lost yourself because to be loved constantly means that you're appeasing everyone else. And then you're never actually being able to even possible. There's no such thing. You're going to piss people off because you appease. Let's talk about dating. My favorite topic. Amazing. I know you referenced you were sitting across from sometimes someone on a date. You referenced it a little bit earlier. And they're saying all these amazing things. But you're like, oh, you don't even see me. Oh, yeah. Jagged little pill comes out 21. Your life changes forever. How did you even connect with men in a way or women in a way that you felt seen because of this fame and all these issues? I didn't. How did that impact your songwriting? The loneliness persisted. The abject cellular loneliness. But I mean, that's what it is. And so for me, also, my survival strategy, also, and I've worked so hard on this has also included other orientation, right? Raised in narcissism. My existence meant beholding other being supply for narcissism. I don't even exist. There's not even a person here. So yeah, do I have a big self when people meet me? Maybe. But over the years, there was no felt sense of self because my whole orientation was focused on other. And so over the years, doing all kinds of different trauma therapy models. And finally, again, you do a point where I'm in this body and that I'm actually here. And the disappearing in the invisibility, it's a big deal. This invisibility wound in the interior. How are women not going to feel some fucking semblance of invisibility? They can't not. Okay, rewind. Explain. So what happens with a young creature at the attachment stage when you're looking, this is when we get, you know, the identity stage, your parents mirror you. You go, Alex, you're so smart. You're so funny. You know, you're just mirroring the person. The child goes, oh, I exist. I'm here. When that doesn't happen, it's this floaty felt sense of experience. And then my survival strategy was to take care of other people. So I'm floating. No felt embodied. Taking care of other. And then the only touch was through acting out sexually because everything was mixed together. The only way a woman could be acknowledged when she's little like you said earlier is, oh, sexual energy. I'm going to erotically go for you or predator you or take you or whatever. Right? So the woman goes, the young woman goes, oh, this is my power. Oh, I noticed that when I'm come hither or come hither, uh, I get seen. I get looked at. I get touched. I get, oh, but it's so sad because it's this one tiny little route. And a human being, your sexuality is beautiful. It's huge. And it is one piece of you. No, it's so true. And also I was, like I recently did this series on attachment styles, which I want to get into with you because that's what you're basically talking about. And I think you describing your childhood, it is such a hard thread for all of us as human beings when you don't have that nurturer looking at you, whoever is your, you know, person that's taking care of you, giving you a secure attachment, um, giving you validation, but also proper validation, um, it's mirroring consistency, right? The fact that you're saying, you know, from a young age as a young girl, then you're like, okay, maybe sexually, this is something that because you're looking for any way to have people that love you. Yeah, that's it. And that is so harmful to ourselves because then you're not yourself. No self. And you're so young. What's actually going to fill you in charge of your own developmental, growing up on your own is, hey, I'm not, I'm not even just thinking about me. I'm just thinking about the idea of it. So attachment, which you just brought up and then exploration. And the, it's cumulative. So ideally, we're securely attached. And then we explore, you know, keep looking back at the caregiver. And then we go into identity, the mirroring. That's what I see. I'm putting into words. I see you. You are spider, man. Right. And then the last one or the fourth is competence. And it keeps going, but it keeps going. But when you, because I do think it's really relatable for a lot of women watching, like, do you have anything you now in having gone through so much therapy and having such a secure, strong sense of self? Is there anything you wish you could tell that younger girl who understandably was seeking love, love and, and, and sexuality brought out what felt like temporary love. But then it also, the crash is even bigger. Do you have any advice for women listening who maybe are still in that cycle? So one interesting inquiry for me was pulling them, teasing them apart. And seeing that, am I, do I need attachment love right now? Or is my eroticism wanting to be expressed or both? But just getting clear on that. When you look back, maybe in your early 20s, let's say raised narcissism, trying to figure out your sense of self, did you see any patterns with partners that you were really attracted to? And how did you break out of those patterns? I was attracted to narcissism, shocker. And as an empath, you know, we tend to be a magnet for narcissists. It's not uncommon. And my, there's a beautiful book called Keeping the Love You Find by Harville Hendrix. It just basically lays out where you're going to feel high chemistry based on your unconscious unfinished business. And that the degree of commitment and intimacy or tends for the degree of healing available. And yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful book in terms of understanding what seems so mysterious. It's this unconscious drive to become whole and to reinvigorate our aliveness. We all wanna feel alive. - It's so relatable and it's so complicated 'cause it's rooted in everything we are from the day we are born. - I know. - And I know you have talked about how you dealt with codependency and love addiction. What emotional toll though does that eventually take on you? - A complete self annihilation and obliteration and years of coming back into who you barely were before you began. - I think that's what's so fascinating is like how am I asked you can get in relationships and how I also think it's so hard to see when you're in it. - You can't. - And you can't see it at all, just hurts. - And it hurts and you feel like, but maybe if I try harder. - Well, that's the appeasement, right? The appeasement is if I see them a little better, if I hold them or if I empathize more, if I leave more space. But the no self is the theme. And the survival strategy of other focus, there is no self. - Do you have a moment you remember? 'Cause it's so hard, it's like we can look back and be like, oh, that was that. But is there ever a moment you remember being like, I have to leave? Like is there anything that ever happened that you were like this specifically made me walk out the door? - I had a few, there's a song I wrote called that particular time. And basically I just keep getting into that appeasement part that just tried to figure out how to make something untenable, terrible. And it isn't and it won't be and it's painful. And so how do you construct a self from nothing? And guess what? The hack of all time. And you said it at the beginning of our conversation. Gathering, gather. - Period. - Because if we get together and we're talking and we're processing, it moves worlds. - And a lot of times when you're in those situations, you are so isolated. But if you do open yourself up to a friend or a family member or something slowly, you're like, oh, me, I'm not crazy. - Maybe there are billions of other people asking this very question at the same time. - You and your husband, so like I got married when you were 35. - What about that relationship felt different to you? - I had had my, the pattern was done. And I just basically went against type. - Which is sometimes really scary. - It's all scary. - Right? - Everything is scary about dating. - It's terrible. (laughing) - Because you're also so aware when you're going against your type and you're like, be open minded, be open minded. - Every day here, right? Everything in your body is like, go back, go back, go back. And you're like, if we go back one more time, I'm gonna lose it. So no, we have to save the court. - I can't, I mean, how many times do you repeat the same pattern? And by the way, my answer is 100, like more than 100, seven. Okay, so you just went against. - Oh, I had to. - Because I also was ready for a family and his, so I was loyalty and constancy. There were some qualities where I went, family, now. (laughing) Right, I was like, these are the best, this is it. And I always wanted to be a mom. I always wanted to have kids. So it was a bit of a no-brainer for me. - You have three children. And a conversation that I've been having a lot on my show recently has been kind of just surrounding motherhood and postpartum depression is something that is such an unfortunately tricky topic to talk about because there's so much judgment from other people. And you have been such an incredible voice when talking about your experience and being so open about it, which I have so much respect for. And you even described it as being covered in tar and underwater. Can you just talk more about your feelings and what you were going through back at that time in your life? - I call it postpartum activity 'cause it's not just depression. And I mean, depression on its own. And if you've had a history depression and then from my experience, each postpartum depression gets increasingly harder. Just wanted to meet my kids though so badly, so I kept going. But basically, I became another person. And all the hormones are all over the place. And so there's some version of menopausal flux combined with depression, invasive thoughts that are so harrowing, terrible, ceaseless. Vasive thoughts, anxiety, depression, rage, off the charts. I felt completely out of control. And yet I was touring and leading and being a boss and being someone who takes care of money and finances and everything. And that part is the part where when I'm quiet and alone, I might weep a little bit here and there about that. When you first started to experience symptoms, how did you even make sense of them? - I didn't. And I reached out to so many therapists and all do respect. One well-meaning therapist said, "Sweetheart, when it gets really bad, just put your hands over your eyes." Like this. And I was like, - You're like, "You know, I'm not a therapist, but I have a feeling." - I have it on TV. - And I know a little bit more than that. - You're like, "I've got a feeling that's not the answer." - I don't think so, answer. - Anyway. - That can't be the answer. - It isn't. - Oh my God. - And I spoke with a lot of really, really smart, supportive postpartum support peeps. And it was still really, really, really, really, really hard. - I wrote down after your first baby, you kind of talked about how you waited to get help because your instinct was to white knuckle your way through it. - Welcome to Generation X. - Yes, yes. What did you come to learn about that mindset? - The steel. I mean, that's what we, Gen X does it. But also women do it. This invisible load thing, then, no, it's not gonna be invisible anymore. We're making it visible. I'm gonna tell you the 37 things that we do an hour. And what we're thinking about when it looks like we're sitting there waiting for you to speak to us, what we're actually thinking about, what we're actually processing. But let's name it. Even us calling it invisible load keeps it invisible, not invisible. The load, we talk about it at the day of the day. Just like, this is the load. And I used to do these horrifying things with whiteboards where I would be like, "I'm gonna write down everything I'm doing. "You don't want it, you do the same." (laughing) They're like, "Oh, God." He's like, "Umm, let's not." (laughing) You know what, I'm gonna go and make you do it. He's like, "I am gonna go do the dishes "and cook dinner and do the laundry pie." - Right, and clean them all out of us. - You're like, "And steam the whiteboard out of your." - I have two whiteboards. - Oh my God. So you mentioned that each postpartum depression or postpartum activity, it got increasingly worse. Each pregnancy for you. How did you manage knowing it was coming on maybe the second and third time? And how did that look different the way that you handled it then versus maybe the first time? - Each time I thought, "Well, not this time." 'Cause I just had to think that. First time I waited a year and two months. Second time I waited eight months. And third time I think I waited three days. I was just like, "Oh, no, I'm not doing this again." And I did it again. And then we toured during COVID. I was just like, "Wow." - Oh, Alanis, you toured postpartum depression, third one. During COVID, you're like, "This will solve it." You know what, this is gonna make everything. All I remember is Shirley Manson before every show every night. She'd say, "We're gonna go on." And I said, "Shirley, tonight, we go on." This is all I know. - Oh, it was one of those. - And were you able to just push through in those moments but then would it all come crashing down the minute you would get off stage? - Back at the hotel, yeah. But I still showed up. Like I was, I dipped into psychosis. It was a wild ride. And then I'd have people in the business going, what's going on with her? Now she's extra crazy. - I'm just like, "All right, thanks for that beautiful chestnut word again." - I've heard a lot of moms who also have experienced postpartum depression talk about the guilt and the shame of like, "I'm supposed to be filling the blank." - Right, but I'm supposed to be, this is supposed to be the best, most beautiful time of my life. And I'm supposed to be happy and the happiest. Did you experience that? - No. But I've been playing with depression my whole life. And joy is very, very cool. It's activism for me now. Joy, pleasure, connection, human context. - Having dealt with depression your whole life. How did you, was there anything that you did similar to cope and to handle the postpartum element of it? Or were they just very different experiences? The depression piece inside PPD? Unfortunately, unfortunately, I was. familiar with it, it was all the other stuff. It was the invasive thoughts and the terror. Just all I could picture was death and terrible things. And yeah, I mean, I feel so happy that I'm back, by the way. And the bummer for me inside PVD was that I was losing people's trust in my sanity. That's a bummer. When I have spent my whole life attempting to establish to people I love that I'm safe and that I'm predictable, and that all of a sudden I wasn't. That was a loss because people looked at me differently. They looked at me like I maybe couldn't be trusted or was going to fly off the hand. And that's not my thing. But also it's-- and from what I've understood, because I haven't experienced it, but there's also the element of you're so afraid to say these things out loud. Terrible, yeah. Because you're like, oh, you're going to think I'm insane. But in a sense, from what I understand, it's like we need to say these things out loud. And but then it's being met with such judgment. So then you just go back into a corner and we haven't figured out the soul that all for women. Well, gather ring. I mean, the soul for women is us going back to how we used to live, which is honoring the female endocrine system as a spiritual fricking practice, and that when a woman is with fricking child, that she is surrounded by 30 women and they're giving you broth and they're cleaning your home and they're holding your baby and they're holding you. And so, of course, the women are going to suffer. Yes. The fricking life givers are going to suffer. Everyone's OK with this. It is so crazy, too, when everyone will treat a pregnant woman with such grace and love. In her second trimester, only. It's true. True. First trimester. Yeah, like, shut up. You're bugging me. Yeah, you're annoying. Yeah. Second trimester. Oh, you have a child. No, and that's what's so sad, right? The minute the mother gives birth, it's like we come-- She gets invisible again. She's invisible. And it's the baby. And it's like, wait, this woman just went through the most transformative in moments traumatic experience that a physiologically a human being could ever go through and neurologically. And we're just like, get up, the baby's crying. And why aren't you-- why haven't you lost your 42 pounds yet? Yeah, what's going on there? Why don't you get back to your aesthetic pleasing for me? You look like you're going through it. You better get it together. Wow, do you have a trainer? Anybody to help you with this? [LAUGHS] I did. But how am I supposed to-- Oh, you're leaving me alone with that-- Perfect. Perfect. So community is community. Get community all around. And cast roles. And cast roles. And lots of cast roles. All the cast roles. You, which I think is so admirable, you did choose to speak about postpartum depression publicly while you were still going through it. Yeah. Why was it important for you to not wait until you were on the other side of it and just say what was going on? It just was what was happening. So-- and it was happening again for the third time. And I had heard at this point, because I'd been so outspoken about it, people were-- my phone was blowing up. And someone would say, oh my gosh, my daughter-in-law. She just pulled the car over and is running down the street. What do I do? And I'm like, why is she driving? Why is she even out of the house? Why is she driving? Get her in the passenger seat. So you got a lot of response from other women once you-- And it was just-- It was amazing, because it was just a yes-and-ing. And then by the third time, oh yeah, let me-- let me keep speaking about this, because I started to realize that I was so not alone. Yeah. That is the best feeling when you're like, oh, I'm losing it, I'm-- oh, you guys are all going through this too? Oh, wait. Yes, this is normal. Oh. [MUSIC PLAYING] Another conversation I want to have with you, which we reference a little bit above, was there's such a fixation on youth culture. Ironically, every single woman that I have had sit in that chair has talked about the beauty and actually the peace that comes with aging for you, what has been the best part of getting older? The words that fly out of my mouth that I can't believe are flying out of my mouth. Yes, it's like my objective ego watches it. Fly out of my mouth. I'll be in meetings and someone will say something, and I'll just say that's patriarchal. And then just keep talking. Or like, that's really rude. Or I just-- it just flies out and I can't stop. And this was not my way. It wasn't. I was more just kind of statewide introvert for with a five-wing and the anti-grams people watching, beholding, ringed, processing it later. Menopause happens, and now I'm just like, boom. Nope, rude patriarchal. Misogynistic. It's like, can't stop. What do people do when you do that? I don't care. [LAUGHTER] Oh my god, I don't know. I'm not. Honestly, we'll find out. I'll do some research. Oh, wow. I wrote that down. You referred to menopause as a truth serum because it's given you the freedom to say what you want, which is exactly what you're talking about right now. What is something that you've maybe just been recently more honest about? That you're like, oh my god, younger. Me would never. Well, what I love about menopause is often people use the metaphor that every leaf on the tree gets pulled or every stone gets turned. Like, no, for me, for me, it feels like the tree itself was ripped out of the ground, and the roots are everywhere and like, good luck. And so everything, identity, sexuality, finances, invisible load no longer being invisible. Girlfriends, deepening friendships. I think friendships are the most unsung CEO at the deathbed, perfect relationships that make for so much repair and correction and healing. And we don't talk about it very much. We talk about dating, which is the greatest. But friendships. Oh, it's what it keeps you sane and stable and everything. We're so true. And like, speaking your mind and the power of speaking your mind, what is one thing also that in life, you realize you kind of can't learn it. It just comes with age. For me, my reactivity has gotten less and less and less. Like, almost there's just more room for humanity. There's more room for vulnerability. There's more room for power. There's more room for everything. There's more space, as I get older. And yeah, it's not a roller coaster. I mean, it's a roller coaster, hormonally. But it's not, existentially, a roller coaster. That's that. It's like an observation. I mean, this observation seat and I'm charmed. These new generations, I'm just like so in love. No, it's such a good point. It really is. It's like, you have so much more perspective and appreciation for everything you've gone through that you're like, that's not that big of a deal or that is. But like, you're going to get through it. Like, you've just done so much, right? You have insight. And that allows you to kind of observe more and not be as like upset about things or reactionary. I think that's a great point. Yes. And when we're supporting younger people, our, I don't know if it's certainty, but our solidity is helpful for them. I feel we need the generations above us to lean on and mentors and teachers and uncles and aunts. Like, keep that going. It's such a good point. You've been referencing this. But now I really want to get into it. You have a new residency in LA called Butterfly with a Machete. That kind of blends your music with storytelling and insights from your life. And I just love the concept it's genius. And it's so interesting. And it begins in November. Yes. What is the meaning behind the name? Like, it's such a good name. It's so you, but please explain. Yes. Well, there's a moment inside. I don't even know what to call it. Musical piece show where I talk about Manopause. And I'm such a symbologist and metaphor lover that it's the transmutation alchemically, Manopause. And then this beautiful butterfly will step you. So that is-- You're like, that's what I was going with, Alex. That's where Butterfly with a Machete was born. Manopause. But the show itself is-- the '90s, the credo was Stay in Your Lane. And especially if you're a woman, stay in the reductive one. Whatever one we ascribe to you, stay in that one. So then now, 2026, is all about being everything. It's about your multitudinous. You have multiple intelligences. It's rock all of them. You want to do comedy and music and dance and movement and aesthetics and lights. And yes, terrifying, because I've been told to stay in one lane my whole life. But really, really liberating. Yeah, how has this? show as you put it together helped you continue to fight the idea that you're too much and too much is a bad thing. The whole show is about me grappling with the too muchness and telling stories that I didn't care about stories because I didn't care about myself. And then I worked with a woman named Anne Randolph who really supported me in seeing that stories can matter. And then I thought, "Okay, I'll try that on for size." And then after working with her for a few years, I finally care about the stories. You're also embracing joy and fun. I heard that you're coming out with a holiday album? Lannis. Yes. What inspired this? Because I'm a holiday girl. I'm a holiday girl. I love it. Then my son ever was born on Christmas Day, so I'm an extra holiday girl. Okay. Christmas morning. Okay, so yeah, we need a holiday album from you. Just because of that. You have your street cred? And yeah, how did you would inspired this? Yes. So every Christmas over the last few years, we've done sort of one song. And then as they were accumulating, and I love them so much, I love singing these songs, I wrote a couple of new songs and we just made a record. So a song called "To an Empathic Christmas Time" and a song called "Christmas on the Dancefloor." And this record is just so sweet. It's just been this labor of Christmas love for me. Oh my god. I'm so excited. You don't even know. I'm gonna be sitting in my house with my baby. I'm gonna press play. I'm gonna be listening to you. And I'm just all the vibes. All the vibes. Can I bring you broth? Or some stew? Yes. Yes, you guys. I protein stuff. Perfect. It's a date. Yeah. What is your favorite song, though, out of all the songs that you put together for this holiday album? I. Well, there's a Judy Garland song that Martin Shorten and I are gonna do. My favorite to sing is "What Child Is This?" and "Little Drummer Boy." Yeah. Your voice with that one. I'll be listening to that. I'll be crying. All the emotions will be flooding. Yeah, the whole thing. You can just envision it. Can't you? Oh my god. Okay. Last question. I could literally talk to you forever. But you first gave women the permission to be angry. What's next? What do you want to see women step up and own? For me, it's about seeing wholeness as the goal versus wellness. And wholeness isn't always the prettiest, most linear path, bringing things online, parts that we've lost or denied, or cut off, bringing them all slowly online. That's what I love supporting people. If you're going from R to S or B to C, wherever the frick we are, that I'm with you as you go, I mean, that's it. And I'm doing the same thing. I'm alongside. No, I love doing it. I do love that message so much because I just think there's such and fixation on, yes, you're right, wellness and do this and be this and all of that. And yes, we can think about the green juices and the Pilates and all that. But really what we're also talking about, it's like trying to be this unattainable version of ourselves and that's not realistic. And it's going to just make you feel like shit about yourself constantly. So to try to find the wholeness in life, what makes you feel whole, what makes you feel good and how your portal's in. Yes. How do you get served? So for me, it's, I don't even do Q and A anymore. I do Q and Q. Right. That's just inquiry. We're just looking at it. That's all we're doing. I have no answer. I don't know. I don't know you. But you have a lot of answers. I mean, I have you some great answers today. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. I have answers for myself. No, you don't have answers for other. You are so interesting. And it was such a pleasure talking to you. I knew we would have such a great conversation. I was so excited to speak with you. But like the different conversations we tapped into and I think you're just such a savant and I love speaking to women that are like so driven. Yes. And interested in what they do. And I just love how confident you are. Like even the way that you talked about from your childhood to the romantic relationships in your life, to also how that impacts, you know, your work and then being a mother versus having not been a mother when you were younger, just all the complexity of being a human being. Yes. And all the different sectors that we have to tap into and try to fill our own cups with. Yeah. You are fascinating and so smart. And I can't thank you enough for opening up to me and just going there with me today. Seriously. Thanks. I'm so happy that you have such spaciousness and capacity. Your capacity is very high. So was yours, girl. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Such a joy. Thank you. Thank you.