Alan Lightman on the Scientific Method, Science, and Scientists

[Music] Which actor will play Daniel Kinahan? Which criminals are coming to dinner? And what are we doing at ElectricPignic? These under the queries are answered in a Crime World Q&A. You're listening to Crime World, a podcast from CrimeWorld.com. [Music] Q&A, we've absolutely loads of questions in. So we'll get through a little bit of this, will we? We get through, bit. Surprise, surprise, surprise. There's quite a few about Daniel Kinahan and the Kinahan cartel. And we have plenty of questions about ElectricPignic, which is freaks me out now. And not you, which is weird. That's obviously going to change very, very shortly. It will, it will as a get closer. Reverse Ferris. What do you want to start with? Well, I suppose we've had a heavy few days, haven't we? Yeah, I'm just the coverage and some deep dyes into the Kinahan cartel. So let's go a bit lighter. Okay. If an Netflix doc is done, I presume to talk about a docu-drama. Yeah. Do you think Daniel Kinahan should be played by Ben Affleck? Right. And? [Laughter] Or would you go for somebody else totally? I mean, he did, like obviously, Ben Affleck. There are some pictures where they really would have looked like maybe a decade ago, I think. So so, yeah. But he didn't have, he didn't look like Ben Affleck in course, basically, did he? It's hard to imagine though, you know, how like, you know, most of the time we all can get up and look in the mirror and put a stuff on or whatever, including man, right? No, sorry, no. Baby Daniel, not me, but Gordon, moisturizer on or whatever else. But I mean, he has been four months in prison, has he? Longer? Yes. So they run that. And it's kind of pretty horrible and then heavy flight home. And we saw him starting in a courtroom wearing a black trax suit. Yeah. And he looks nothing like Ben Affleck, but I think anybody may be in those conditions when we look in their best. So it's a little bit unfair to judge him from that. Daniel Kinahan certainly changed a lot from those kind of photographs that are famous of them, especially back in the MGM days in Spain, you know, the baseball cap wearing a kind of look, you know, and that dark look is kind of gone. It's made way for Gray. Yeah. And bolding and he feels he felt he looked small and diminutive, but he was where he was. In fact, as you're not in your best, if you're sitting in the dark of the special criminal course, I'll put it like this. This is my answer to this. I'm sure Daniel Kinahan, if he was to be portrayed in an Netflix drama, would be quite happy if Ben Affleck played him. I probably would. I probably would. It's diplomatic now. What about you? Well, I mean, it seems to be illegal for Barry Kjogen not to get any part of any Irish man and any film. So it's over or what's the regard to short short or Paul Mezkel? Yes. Okay. So it has to be one of those two. I think Barry Kjogen might be a more of a local right. But I mean, there's one thing is for sure. And even Daniel Kinahan themselves referenced this in some of the James English podcast. It is an incredible story. And there's nothing you sure that somebody someday will make a feature film out of the life of Daniel Kinahan. No matter what happens in course. Most definitely. Here's another one then. Do you reckon Daniel Kinahan already has a phone in prison? Well, I actually think he probably doesn't. I mean, I think how high profile a prisoner he is can't be overstated. And you know, he's been brought into port. He's even as we spoke about the other day on the podcast, even the fact that governor was there to meet him at a late hour. He's just going to be under an incredible level of scrutiny for the first period of time. And mobile phones are certainly there in prisons. I mean, the prison service I've made great efforts. What I've been told is that certainly some of the 5G, 4G stuff doesn't seem to work. But they're getting in these tiny phones. Beat the boss phones as they're called. Beat the boss. Yeah, because the boss is a chair. The boss is a there's a special chair, metal detecting chair that people sit in. So to stop cavity searches. So they're these small key fob phones like the size of a key fob for a car. They're smuggled in. Let's put it that way. And I ask a kind of a semi Bart Simpson S question, maybe our rather Homer Simpson. Right? Okay. Right. So if they're that tiny, how do you get the familiar ear to your mouth? But I think taken. You sort of hold it halfway. Nicola, I don't know. Never having been in prison just yet. You put it on speaker and talk like that. Yeah, yeah, something like that. But that's why you were actually seeing less of the video phones at the moment. Yeah. Because although they do get in a lot of the phones in there. Yeah, maybe so. So hopefully we never have to particularly. Oh, sweet Jesus. Hopefully not. Yeah. Yeah, wouldn't be. No, I don't think he has a phone in prison. I think he's going to be heavily monitored. I think that Daniel Kinahan will be in prison and will be treated like all other prisoners except for the fact that I think there will be an awareness that he is suspected of having ordered and directed crime and murder from across the globe. And you know, there be an awareness that he would be capable of doing so from within the country. So I think that the, I suppose the intelligence services, whatever exists within the prison are going to be keeping a close eye on him, making sure that he's not making any plans. You know, like Ireland is not that different to the rest of our European counterparts. And it just strikes me that there was a criminal ally of Daniel Kinahan's called Ridow and Taggy who was extremely dangerous when he was in prison. Nearly more dangerous really to the state of the Netherlands than he was when he was out. When he was out, he was targeting his own personal enemies within drug gangs and other criminals. When he was in prison, he targeted the brother of a state witness. He was suspected of being behind the assassination of a defense lawyer. And of course, the infamous shooting of Peter Ordebrees, who was a very well-known veteran journalist who was also a campaigner. Ridow and Taggy was not convicted or charged in relation to any of those murders, but he and his organization were believed to be behind them. And ultimately, it was believed that he was getting messages out of the prison through a largely his legal briefs. The first of whom was a relation of his. Yes, he had been there. And the second of whom I think remains under investigation in Eseweski. Yeah, though, she has denied it very strongly and that certainly has to do conclusion, but absolutely, he had a relative who was a trained and qualified barista or solicitor. And he was, they actually recorded conversations in prison, which are not meant to do obviously between solicitors and their clients. So I mean, Ridow and Taggy took on the state effectively. And if you remember, at one point, the justice minister had to be given protection, armed police protection because they feared the justice minister could be charged, very reminiscent of Pablo Escobar in Colombian in the 1980s. We're not going to see that here, but there is, there is, you know, Daniel Kinne still a very different category of prisoner to anybody else. Oh, definitely. And, you know, as I say, his associates who were very close to him and who he hung out with for a long time were seen as capable of these sort of almost movie style maneuvers while in the prison system. I mentioned there earlier this week, noafal Fasi, another Dutch member of the, the macro mafia had been imprisoned here in Ireland and Port Leish and he had been picked up in a Kinne and Safe House. But there was a plan which was being formulated and directed by El Rico, the Chilean member of that sort of grouping, the European super cartel. And he had made, made serious plans in order to blow up, I think it was the side of Port Leish prison and getting waafal Fasi out helicopter and whatever the plan was. It was serious enough that the Irish guardian were involved in contacting the Dutch counterparts and it was decided to get them into, out of the country in a military aircraft. They've, they've got to flew in. That ain't to make the up story. That's the truth, you know. So this is the kind of thing I suppose that, so the idea of them already having a phone that somebody has brought in even a microscopic phone. I don't think so. I don't think the prison service are going to do anything necessarily illegal while they have done a Kinne and, incarceration in the run up to his trial. But I think they will be aware that a guy suspected of what he suspected of would be a very dangerous individual as well as endangered person. Yes. And of course it'd be greater where he is. He's not mixing him with former cartel associates. If he was to mix with them, you know, that is also a risk that he could be giving orders or whatever. So he has been kept separately at the moment. This is a good question actually. Do you have any sympathy that in some respect, Stangel Kinne and his groomed by his father to be an alleged cartel leader? Obviously, that is an interesting question, isn't it? Clearly, Bandaña was a teenager, his father had been in prison for a six-year period for selling heroin, and that was in his background. Yeah, I think that undoubtedly the father's background is, and the father had gone before him into the business. He always said that Daniel Kinahan and his brother Christopher were raised by their mother, Jean Boilin, who had no aspirations for them as far as I know, to get involved in the business and actual fact she tried to discourage them. But I think, as they hit those kind of teenage years, their father had become a big wig in Europe. He had plenty of money, and no doubt that lifestyle was the lure. I'm not sure this evidence there of them actually being groomed, but I do think that the lure was a lure, and they were at an age that, in particular, Daniel, who did seem to share his father's ambitions and an actual fact, wanted to be bigger and better again than him. And share is a lot of aspects, I think, of his personality and his traits of others. He's obviously highly influenced by him. I've always been told that he absolutely adores the father and is always looking for his approval with things. But not sure about groomed being an apt term in this case. I mean, I don't know if groomed, of course, is against the law now to groom people into criminal gangs. That is a specific offense. And people think of that, although those cases have yet come to court because there's new legislation, the idea would be that there'd be a vulnerable child who would be in their early teens or younger. And would have been effectively used as a bionold or criminal. So there is an argument to say that something similar may have happened with Daniel. Certainly, the idea of drug dealing must have been normalized for him. Christy Kinnon went to prison, I think, in 1980. Well, it wasn't normalized for him at home because his mother wasn't a child. She was his mother. He was rearing the man a cleaner's wage. And she was loved, I think, in the community and was kind to people who were less well off and were addicted to drugs. That's what I know of her. What people have told me that did know her. She was popular. I think she did her best to keep them away from us. So they weren't groomed in their home where they were rare. They were lured by a father and a strange father who was active in their lives. I have to say, as far as I know, again, they were always with him who didn't come from that world, but who definitely had some sort of a lifestyle. And I'm sure he looked pretty glamorous as your father, if your mother was going out to keep him safe. Of course, I mean, this is for living. This is the other bit of it. He would have come out. I think Daniel probably would have been 10 when he went to prison for that hero. That major heroine charge and he would have come out when Daniel was 1415, something along those lines. So all of a sudden he would have come out and straight away, you know, the poverty that they would have faced or certainly, you know, relative poverty grown up and all of our bond, all of a sudden, money would have been available. And that's very, very, that's a very, very attractive thing for teenagers of that age in particular. I do have some sympathy, form to a degree in that in those years, while I understand what you're saying, the mother would have had an influence. My father also would have had a big influence and he may have become involved, you know, almost because it didn't seem like there was any other straightforward path. But this time goes on, you know, that can be, that's an explanation. It's not an excuse as the years go by, you know, what you do at 1920 can be judged in a different context from what you do when you're 40, you know, there's no doubt that those two things have to be viewed differently. And at some point, you know, you may look at drug dealing as a 19 year old if you're selling ecstasy as being a victimless crime. There's no doubt by as he gets older, he's under no pressure for money, he's under no pressure in any meaningful way. The use of violence can never be acceptable and, you know, the use of violence was really what kept the kin in cartel, made it so successful. Can his defense, here's a question, try to exclude encrypted phone communications due to no warrants. Well, of course you can try whatever you want when you go to course. Yeah. It doesn't mean you will succeed, but I would imagine that defense would focus in on that. You know, there will be warrants for a start because, you know, it's the encrypted network we believe that we're using at the time in 2015 to 2017 when the charge that Daniel Kinner is facing runs from are slightly different than the later anchor chath phones. So we don't know exactly what warrants are used. We haven't heard that evidence in court yet. Try but imagine if Daniel Kinner's defense will, will of course seek to attack how that mobile phone evidence was was received and whether it should be allowed be presented in a course. I think that would be one of the key bits of this trial. But you have to remember now there's been a couple of cases. So, if he goes to trial and his defense team are working for him and he does actually have lawyers working for him rather than defending himself because he hasn't actually appeared to have engaged a legal team as of yet. They will challenge everything because that's what a good defense team would do. So, they won't only challenge that. They will challenge every little piece of evidence. Look at me, including his arrest. And his whereabouts at any time, you know, to mean, etc. So, you know, I think if he goes to trial, you're going to see a lengthy and combative situation in court against every little piece of the state's evidence. The state has been a long time compiling this case 10 years, perhaps in the entire investigation. The DPP, I think, I read the other day, perhaps in the Irish Times, Kinner Lali piece, they had it for two years initially before they sent it back looking for the file. Like, you know, when the police believe they finished an investigation, they send this file to the director of public prosecutions who reads through it and comes back if they find any holes in it or if they can't see how it would successfully result in a guilty conviction should it go to trial, etc. But the two years after getting it, the DPP sent it back to the Guardian with more jobs. Yeah, they're looking on us, etc. So that, to me, would feel like a very robust file. I know the amount of investment that's gone into this, this isn't an investigation that was handled in a small run office somewhere in a local police station by a couple of, you know, detectives who were kind of doing their damnedest to fit it in. This has been something that's been a full-time job for a lot of people, very talented people for a long time. So I would think that it's going to be a robust. There seems to be a confidence in the state about this. And again, as I say, if Daniel Kinnahan defends himself, he's going to challenge everything in that. Now, I mean, it's also important to recognize that there's two people, Kinnan gang members really that have come before the courts, that have been given a book of evidence where these phone messages have been included. One of them is Sharma Governe. Obviously, people will remember that trial. Another guy is J. O'Connor. All of those people got that same evidence they had, you know, junior council, senior council and solicitors working for them, who will have looked at that file. And about those occasions, those two men were very serious criminals. Both of them decided to take a guilty plea. They would have got the advice that, you know, while you could challenge this, but are your chances good and they made the determination and better off taken a plea. So Daniel Kinnahan can challenge everything and he will challenge everything. It doesn't mean that he will succeed. Indeed. Maybe one more on him before we move to a different topic. This is an interesting one, even though it seems like a simple question, with the guardian of spoken to Daniel Kinnahan during the flight back to Ireland. Now, that seems like, you know, right. You're put into a position with somebody who you have either been, you know, investigating your part of, so the guardian of something that Daniel Kinnahan does not particularly like believe in. In actual fact, he believes that the force in cahoots with the government, the media and the Hutch organized crime group conspired to have him killed. I would say Daniel Kinnahan absolutely spoke to the guardian and that the guardian absolutely spoke to him on the way home and is flight back to Ireland. I'd say they exchanged pleasantries. I think mostly people working in these situations are very human. Yeah. To those that they're taking back, they're kind of aware, really, of the stresses that it may cause. We saw Daniel Kinnahan in a court addressing the court, which is essentially the state, isn't it? Yes. You know, it's the just as arm of the state. He was very polite when he did so. respect. He certainly wasn't going to kick off or made one little joke which could have gone either way depending on which judge you had but at the very end of the incident when he said, "Shall we all know I won't get bail?" But I would say they spoke, I'd say he was offered water, food, use of the toilet. He was more than likely handcuffed, was he or would they have taken them off on the desk? Oh, he would have probably been, they may have taken it off. Imagine they would have left him as comfortable as possible for the flight home. I don't think they would have spoken about anything that had to do with his arrest, his incarceration and Dubai or what he was facing back home but there probably was a little bit of small talk, perhaps about the weather because that's what the Irish people are best at doing. But in the end of the day you find yourself in proximity with people that are seen as your sort of your rival and ultimately, mostly human beings will converse, communicate and interact with each other. Yeah, I mean, look, there's a couple of types of criminals I suppose but I mean Daniel Kennen is like, I mean if you had the Hennessy's on the plane, I don't think you'd be having a load of chats obviously but Daniel Kennen is a totally different story. You could see him in court, he was articulate, intelligent. You could understand what was being said, even though it was complex legal language, this is a man who's been able to move between all sorts of worlds, including the sporting world, including dealing with political figures associated with boxing, who's able to charm and represent himself well. There's no doubt he's a person of intelligence and a degree of charm. So I don't think he would be kind of petty enough to be called them the cops names. No, I didn't talk to him. Do you know what I'd say they talked about sports? Yeah, yeah. Sports are the weather. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. So yeah, I'd say they definitely did did speak pleasantries on the way home. Now moving on, Nile, are you owed back a holiday day? Well, I think I'm always a holiday day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It became, well, there was a remember there was occasion towards the discussion within the company at a higher level about me not taking my holidays. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. But yeah, the answer to that is a resounding yes. Yes, I am. And like I give an answer for not taking my holidays by Eimer, who says, you know, you don't want to take your holidays, you just want to moan about not taking them. Yeah, you do love a good moan, but it's busy, you are, and how you can't get time off and all the rest of us. Yeah. Anyway, I just managed to sort of just block that out. I compartmentalize you do. Well, I don't, I don't, I don't, she's a skill. Well, I don't go to you, Nicola, looking for comfort on, on, on the empathy. Will the crime word world merch be going on sale on your website could do with a new mug? Well, you haven't new mug where we are just email me and I send you mug. Um, I don't know. Well, I mean, I think we are going to starve running a few competitions for merch. Yeah. And because there is a demand for it now when we're down in electric picnic, we will definitely have some and for people who are there, but we are going to be running some again, we, we, we true around how are we going to, how are we going to give way this merch? Yeah, because we'll have more people than we'll have merch, but I definitely think the Hunger Games are a waste of the trash. We could set up a kind of a ring in the middle of the, the mind field tent. Yeah, I think it could be a good idea. Now, I'll get your own. Well, I'm just saying, bringing the spirit of Talbot Street to the electric, the electric picnic with a bit of wild brawling on the middle of the day. Well, more than favor. Anyway, we'll come up with something and I'm sure anybody who particularly, you know, we'll do our best to bring as much as we can. Nice enough t-shirts and what have we got tote bags and kind of mugs? We're going to, forget about the mugs actually. They've just pointed out to me. We can't carry the mugs. Just write to me if you want a mug. And we could have other little bits there. We're going to go through. We're going to go through the covers and see what's here. All right. Okay. Now, one, will I? Yeah, go ahead. So, um, well, this is one that's particularly relevant to you. Will you be going to Rex Ryan's The Witness Play and would you recommend it? Of course, I'll be going. Jesus. So Rex Ryan has developed my book The Witness podcast into a one man stage show. Now, I'll tell you this much and I'm not actually just trying to advertise this because this is Rex's gig here, but The Witness is going on in this gorgeous little, um, theater called The Glass Mask on Nassau Street there. Yeah. And it's, it's capacity for a belt. I think it's about 120 a night. It is such a cool theater. It's very bespoke, very old style French, bistro style. And you go and you sit there on the table, at the roundy table in chairs and you can get your charcootery board and your wine or whatever you like as the play is on you can probably reach reach out and touch it. It's where I saw the monk the first time when he was playing, playing there. And I was absolutely blown away by his performance and by the play. Of course, we went. The crime world team went when it was in the ambassador and much larger thing, but this, um, he has advertised it. Um, I don't think a week ago. Yeah. And it's nearly sold out. Yeah. And I'm not surprised because look, I know the popularity, the witness and Joey O'Calaan's story. And I think that people have recognized how talented Rex is from that anyone who went to the monk. So, um, I'm not sure that there is going to be many tickets left. Yeah. And, um, I can't pull up many strings because, you know, it's a theater that's trying to keep going. Yeah. Um, but the hope is, I suppose that if this is a big success, we'll be bringing it to a bigger venue maybe next year. Um, that would be the hope, which would, you know, allow anybody who has missed out this time. Get to see it. And have you seen any of the rehearsals? So I have been involved in, in, in, in quite a bit of it. Yeah. Um, I haven't seen it yet because he's still rehearsing it and he hasn't quite perfected. He wants to get the set and all done. But I will be getting to see it in a while. How's he like, obviously, when Rex, and when he was on here, he spoke about watching our interview with Jared Hodge and I was meeting and talking to him to try and get his mannerisms. And I thought he was brilliant on us because, you know, he really did capture it. Has he tried to do the same with Joey? Has he met him? Has he, you sort of, he has actually, yeah. Yeah. And that has been very, very difficult because of the situation. Obviously, Joey is living in at the moment. In particular, because, and maybe we'll come back to this, actually, Nile, because this is a serious situation. Brian Kenney's out nearly every week. He can't his way out. He's, you know, he was there in this position before when he was, and he was up in Luckenhouse, and he was caught having brought drugs or something back to the prison and was kind of flung back into the main prison population to serve out another three years as was or thereabouts for, which gave Joey a little bit of kind of ease again. But we're back to a situation that this guy is, you know, common up to a release date and he's going to be out. So it's a very difficult situation for Joey, difficult for him to be in the country. But nonetheless, he's very supportive of this. And he gets on very well at Rx. They have met, they've spoken. And I think he's going to capture Joey in the way he did capture them all, you know. But it's really exciting because like there's a there's a film underway about the witness as well, which is a long time on the cards and these things these projects take forever. Are you in India? You're not in there's nobody capturing you, capturing Nikola Talant. But that's why maybe I was so kind. Because if you were, he was asking the same question. Because you're not, you're not as versed to a bit of body shaming or look-shaming. Anyway, no, Watson, who might, who might play you? But like, so that's kind of in the offing and you know, that'd be the big, but I both of us are very excited about the theater. I always thought as a something for stage, but I do like theater. But I think it's, you know, so yeah, anyway, it's exciting. It's October the 20th, I think, is starting and it's running for maybe 10 days a little over a week. It is definitely. And that's not a hilt pitch on it because this, we haven't even advertised this. It's not even, it's not even been put out. It hasn't been marketed at all, you know. So there you go. But you know yourself, like the amount of stuff I get in about for Joey and, you know, every single week, not a week goes by and somebody doesn't contact me, wishing them well, or saying that they were blown away by a story and they want to just make sure he's okay. A lot of teachers contact me. Yeah. We'd like to kind of use the story within the classroom. Yeah. And you know, someone would even contact me and see if there's anything he could do. And of course, if he can, he wills. Yeah. Yeah. So okay. If you could have a dinner party with tree crime guests, who would you invite and why? First, would you want to have not particularly, not particularly okay. three crime guests like as in criminals. I think so, yeah. Okay, right. Okay, well let me think about this. Now just say you had to, right? At dinner party with three, right. I think you could have Jerry Hutch there. I think he can handle himself. Absolutely. He would be, you know, he's not gonna tell you the secrets of his life, but he'd be well able to converse with you and hold his own and be funny and whatever. Yes, and not take himself too seriously. Another one I would have would be George the Penguin Mitchell because I'd say he's similar. Yeah. Even though I haven't had the same interaction that I've had, I know people say he's a real sort of down to earth dub. Yeah. Quite funny. Likes is gin and tonic. And, you know, and can be quite good company. If you can compartmentalize what these people do. Yeah. Okay. And with the two of them at the table, I think who could, I mean, it's a bit peculiar to dinner party anyway, wouldn't it? I'm gonna start stressing now. Okay. What would have happened? I mean, in that company, you might as well have the third one being Kenneth and senior. I mean, it wouldn't have happened. I don't know where he'd be. Yeah, see, I don't know if he'd be, I think he is the most interesting of all the criminal figures. He'd screw up the vibe. I think he might be a bit cranky. Yeah. I don't think he'd be, he would be chatting. Is this? Yeah. And of course, he did have that reputation, didn't he, amongst all of Daniel's friends who were obviously working for the business, that he would be very dismissive of them and would go to great lengths not to have to spend time with them because he found them so annoying. So it'd be a bit cranky, but he'd be a fascinating, he would be a fascinating character. Another one, I think, would be an interesting character. And of course, he is, you know, is John Pangell, who's facing an expedition. I think John Pangell would be an interesting character. Yeah. I think he, again, like, and of course I did talk to him on the phone. I think he'd be watching back on your side and everything. I even thought he was on the table. Maybe so, but I still think he'd be somebody that you probably would be able to have a bit of a laugh with and would be able to talk relatively openly. Yeah, I don't think he could trust anything of what every one of these guys would say. No, God, no, you'd have to keep the conversation very broad, wouldn't you? I mean, you wouldn't be getting into the. You know, the reasons for life. What about him? Do you know who I would and God rest him and he would have been a similar character and Ilk, maybe, of those two in my mind, when they're at surface level with me, would be no dog and he was a good old character. I mean, obviously, again, compartmentalised, but he may have done, you know, outside the law in his life, but he was a bit of fun, actually, and he was murdered, obviously, in 2016. Coming up to 11 years now in March, he was Easter weekend of that year. Nobody has ever been charged with his murder and an actual fact. I'm not sure there was a proper investigation ever conducted. It's something maybe we might revisit on the podcast again. I do think some of. Better life, because of the ones that are. Well, I think some of the political paramilitary guys would be interested in this. Oh, God, yeah. I mean, I think some of the people who. I mean, some of the acts that they committed were so horrendous and the level of violence used was incredible. But yeah, I think somebody like Desi O'Hare would be. I don't know if he'd be very chatty, but he would be an interesting character. I think Amy Kelly's life story would make him a very interesting guest as well. And these people were people who lived incredible lives, like movies literally. What about story or someone like that? Bobby Story. Yeah, I mean, again, Bobby Story would be a hugely interesting person. I mean, the. Or Brendan Hughes, the dark, I think, with Bobby Fasagian character. Or I'll watch the Mariam Price, or the Lour's Price. I think those sort of people, because they. You know, we've spoken about Daniel Kinnan, Music Room, Dintwish. These people ended up living a certain life to a degree, because it's political circumstances they were in. But not solely because of that, because thousands of people grew up on that environment. And didn't you? But I mean, there certainly wasn't that kind of lure of the money or of the lifestyle. It was a love for. But I think they're interesting. Yeah. What they believed was a love for their country and their nation and the future of. Yes, but I think the other bit, the fascinating bit of it is, is it also the lifestyle and the drama and the adrenaline? I think that, you know, where one stops and the other begins, I think is a fascinating one. Now, you'd have to make stars, of course, desserts. And that one wouldn't have put in drinks. And would you feed them a drink? But I feed them a drink. No, me. I'm not. No, no, no, no. I mean, would you do that to loosen the tongue? Well, I think loosening the tongue wouldn't go away. If you had Jerry Hutch and Chris Lee Kinnon at the table. No, god no. Well, they wouldn't be, yeah, that was just thrown that one in. But I do think if I had the trio, if I had George Mitchell, Jerry Hutch, I'd have Duggan there. And I don't even know. Are they friends? They probably aren't. I'm sure they have their own issues, but it's a kind of a, you know, it's not really a serious question anyways. It's a, we don't need to. No. But let's answer the answer. No. Okay. There's traditions in the questions and answers section. We've done enough of them. So we have to be kind of. This is the end. We cannot have questions and answers, but I had a Larry Murphy question. Right? Seriously. If the guards found the body and thought Larry Murphy was connected, could they call them back? So, of course, they could. So I suppose the thing, you know, Larry Murphy is of the Indie UK. The guards certainly don't know what is up there day by day, but they do have, you know, the name is living under. They do probably have a degree of. Nice job, if it's a second. One. If the guards found the body and thought Larry Murphy was connected, they call them back. Obviously, could they arrest them and bring them back? If they thought he was connected, no. No. They'd, if it needs some evidence. But they need evidence and they'd need, if he didn't come back voluntarily, which presumably wouldn't need a warrant, an extradition warrant. In order to get an extradition warrant, they need to bring a charge. They need to send a file to the DPP. The DPP needs to agree. There's enough evidence to charge this person. In particular, without it being put to them, it wants the DPP, you know, grease it up, then they can go charge them, and then they can get a warrant and they could get it extradited. The DPP are often very reluctant to charge somebody unless they've been questioned and the evidence has been put to them first. And that could have been one of the things that slowed down the Daniel Kinnehen case. Ideally, the way the DPP would be, like it would be that Daniel Kinnehen would be arrested. All of this evidence would be put to them. If he'd given a chance and then they make a decision about a charge. So, yeah, if they found a body, there was evidence. If Larry Murphy had left his left there, whatever it was. They could bring them back, but yeah. Larry Murphy, the Bogeyman, he just never goes away. He never goes away. Not that I'm not obviously finding it amusing. No, it is just extraordinary that he has. He's still in the public's imaginations. He is. He is. I like to say he scared the live-in-day light set of everybody. He didn't do especially when he was released that time. Well, I think there's certain types of crimes that people find. If you look at Ganglang crime, most of the victims of Ganglang crime are also in more way or another. In more way or another involved in criminality. They don't feel as threatened by that world because it's away from them. I think Larry Murphy represented the sense particularly for women that have ran the attack for no purpose, with no build-up can occur. Therefore, he took on that sort of role as a Bogeyman. Maybe the fear of him entered into a world. People that don't have to worry about crime, particularly in that part of the country, which is obviously he was operating around Wiclow area. So it did spread a lot of fear. Will we park those questions and come back to them next week? We will. We do. Because there's loads more coming in. I can even see them coming in as we're talking. Because I think people have a huge amount of queries in relation to everything down your kinahen. I think maybe you and I need a little bit of a break from down your kinahen. I thought you were going to say you need a little break from each other. We need that. Would you hurry back? No, I know. That was quite insulting. No, well, I mean, that's what I thought you were going to say. It's actually the side of my low self-esteem. But no, we're going to try and mix it up a little bit going forward, even though we will stay with the story of the day and the week. And obviously any developments within that we will also be following. But when I look at the Q&As and I see 755 questions about Daniel Kinahen, Missilanias, 10. You can kind of read what we want. But no, look, we will definitely come back to all those. And keep them coming, please. Keep the questions coming in. Thanks, Echala.