Alan Cumming and Robert Garcia: The Traitors Running Our Government

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to the Bullock Daily. I'm your host Tim Miller. We got a double header for you today in segment two. It's a special treat. Alan Cumming, Tony Award-winning actor, host of the Traders on NBC. This is an inaugural visit on the program, but first, he's the Democrat charge with rooting out the Traders in our government, ranking member of the oversight committee. It's Robert Garcia. What's up, man? Hey, man, good to see you. It's good to see you coming out of slide from Long Beach. I want to spend most of the time on oversight plans for next year, but before you get the gavel, you got a few items of business here in the next three weeks, making sure the Democrats win in the midterms. The economic state of play seems to be working in y'all's favor. We have news this week, inflation ticked up. PPI, which is usually kind of a precursor to future inflation, I had the biggest jump since 2022. Trump's solution to that is handing out some free money to people, which I think is inflationary. I'm not an economist, then trying to do a deal with Putin. What's your feeling on kind of how things stand as far as the cost of living economy part of the election is concerned? I mean, well, first, I mean, the economy is pretty fucked. I mean, there's no question like people are struggling. You hear that every single day. No one is feeling like things are getting better. Gas prices here in my home state are over six bucks a gallon. They're worse if you are driving diesel in Iowa or in the Midwest. And groceries, rent, mortgage, I think everyone is struggling on all these things and not feeling like things are gonna get better anytime soon. I'm hearing that all across. I'm not just here in my home state, but wherever we're traveling. And so I think three weeks out until the election, I think there is definitely a desire for big change, for big movement, for things to get better. So that's why I think Democrats are gonna do really well. Donald Trump has done nothing but make things worse. A war nobody wants gas prices out of control, corruption everywhere you turn. Republicans can't stand up to them. And so I think we should feel bullish, but run through the tape. I mean, there's a lot of work to do in the next three weeks, but I'm feeling pretty good. Yeah, obviously the biggest contributor to all this is the Iran War of Choice. To me, it seems like there are some signs that they're planning escalation. They've been some reports that they're presenting Trump with the idea of using the MOAB, the mother of all bombs. I don't know if they figured out what they plan on bombing yet, but they're looking at using that. I noticed that Mark Levin and some of the Iran Hawks are being nice to him again, which usually happens when he's calling around and looking at options. So I mean, I'm wondering what your thought is on that. And obviously there'll be a kind of like a lame duck period after the election, but it seems to me, like all signs are pointing towards escalation rather than de-escalation, what do you see? Yeah, I mean, I think unfortunately that's true. I think that that's kind of what is kind of being discussion with a lot of members of Congress talking to my colleagues, particularly on the armed services for an affairs side. They're very concerned that Trump has really kind of this, kind of this schizophrenic policy agenda in Iran. We have no idea what we're doing. One day, you know, it looks like he wants to wind things down. He can't even call it a war. The next day he's ramping it up. Right now, it's looking like he's getting pushed and there is interest to try to ramp up whatever he's trying to accomplish there, which we're not even sure what that is. Which I think is a bad policy, obviously. We have right now no clear mission. You know, Pete Hexath, who supposedly is trying to lead us there, can't even get the numbers right about how many service members that we've actually lost. They've lied to the public and to the media about that. They continue to reverse their position. We're losing American service members. They're lives and their families. Families are being impacted by that. And then beyond that, we're seeing what the costs are to the American public. Nobody wants us there. We've got to wind this thing down and get out. And some sort of escalation with no clear purpose is not the approach. What do you got the next three weeks? You out on the trail? Are you campaigning for other house members? Or are you just, you know, getting the subpoenas ready? Well, I mean, both. I mean, look, we've been doing stuff with 200 in California. We've been just in an event with Randy Villegas. And next two days, we'll be with Marnie von Wilpert, who's in the San Diego area. There is plenty to do here in California. Of course, we're helping other candidates across the country. But we've got five big seats here in my home state. And so there's a lot of ground to cover. If we really flip these five seats here in California, I think we're chances for a majority are going to be strengthened pretty dramatically. What's the most stretchy of the five? I like to push people to, you know, support the biggest challenges. The two seats that for us, like we kind of have to win this, this derelisacy, that's Marnie von Wilpert seat out in the, the kind of northern San Diego area for us is a critical seat. If we win that seat, we're going to be in great shape. But we'll have one all of our other seats. Could we have to defend Derek Tran, who is in Orange County? We have to defend Adam Grave in the Central Valley. I think we'll defend those two seats. And then the other seats, we're looking really strong on it. So Randy Villegas, Marnie, we can win those two seats. We're going to get our five seats that were targeted here in California. Yeah, I'm going to chance to listen to your stump when you're out there. The vice president was in Texas. His closing message about James Talleriko seems to be that he's a gay furry who likes to look at trans children's porn. JD Vance is an idiot and obviously a liar. And what's crazy about Talleriko is they just don't know how to attack the guy. The guy is so talented. I was watching his recent appearance here on CNN. The guy is so talented and he speaks to middle of the country. He speaks to people obviously that are religious. And they're just throwing whatever they can against the wall because they see that he actually has a shot of winning this thing. And they're obviously their candidate is their worst candidate in the country. But if James Talleriko can win Texas, I think the amount of investment and commitment to the state that will come from his win is going to be pretty transmissional for the party. And I think it also would be just a good sign that like he's gay doesn't work as a campaign message, you know? That would be refreshing. That would be refreshing development, given so what we've seen the last few years. All right, let's talk about some other stuff, what you guys have planned, what you're working on right now. We're taping this on Thursday afternoon, supplying to our live tour in South Carolina tomorrow. Just before we began taping you and Elizabeth Warren dropped an Epstein Wall Street Act, which is going to look into, you know, the banks that Epstein was using, what you talk about that and why you think that is potential fruitful area to mine. Yeah. So I've been meeting with Senator Warren on this. We just kind of have been laying out some plans for the next Congress around the banks. Now, obviously, if we're able to win the Senate also, having her be able to lead that effort in the Senate would be incredible. So it's another big reason why ideally we win bookstarts. And just as a personal item, I'm happy you're working with her on this because the other thing I saw from her this week is she's concerned about the hot sauce market consolidating. Yes. It looks Frank's in Chalula. I don't know. That's just not at the top of my concerns list. So I think this is really spot on for me. So you just keep on kind of working with them. No, absolutely. And the banks are key to obviously unraveling all the Epstein lies and the cover up is the financials, right? Who did Epstein pay? Why did he pay them? What did the banks know? So apparently there's some type of cover up happening at some of these large institutions with some of these players as well. And so, yeah, we're going to get to the bottom of that and she'll be a great partner on the Epstein stuff. What is your sense like what more is doable on the Epstein front? What could you guys do in the majority that you are blocked from this last round? I mean, there's a lot. Let's just start at the top. Number one, there's three million plus documents of the DOJ that we've never seen. Half of the Epstein files, including what we believe are some of the most salacious stuff that has never been released by the DOJ or Todd Blanche. And so, our ability to pressure, to pass laws, to get other folks in front of committees, to actually have public hearings, there have been zero public hearings in oversight or judicial or anywhere on the Epstein investigation. We've had to bring those issues up. But as far as the public hearings, we can bring in witnesses to testify, there have been none. Our ability to actually bring in witnesses also on the deposition side. Most of the witnesses, Republicans have brought in, they refuse to put them under oath. And so, we have no witnesses that were under oath. We have no actual real public hearings. We have three million of the documents that have not been presented, so that there's a lot of work to do. And many of these documents also have to do with, for example, Donald Trump and things that he was mentioned in, FBI interviews. And so, all of that is information and documents that we've got to get, which will help obviously we're dramatically from the majority. I just started thinking about this also on the cover-up side of things. I mean, they were a decent number of career public employees that were enlisted into this cover-up, right? At some level, I may not have realized they were a part of it, right? Because they were doing redactions, or reviewing the documents. Have you thought about that at all? What are the possibilities for talking to the people that were part of this review, either DOJ, FBI elsewhere? And I mean, that's a big part of it, to be honest. We have talked to folks that are good, you know, civil servants in some cases. There's a lot of lawyers and civil servants out there that have participated in a lot of redactions that know what actually are in the files. And so, one of the reasons why I'm confident that the full truth is going to get out is because enough people have seen enough that that information is going to get out. And I think a lot of people are frustrated that so many of the documents have not yet been release. buy the DOJ. And so I am confident that that information, particularly some of the info that we get through whistleblowers or through interviews with survivors is eventually going to come out and we know of information that survivors have shared with us. That we have yet to see in the files. And so we are certainly interested in seeing what those documents say when the full batches are actually releasing. It's crazy that Todd Blanch who led the Epstein files cover up is not released in the remaining files. I mean, so that's something that we're going to have to get much more aggressive on, including going to the courts. As you probably know, when you're in the minority, you can't go to court on behalf of the house. And that's very different in the majority. I want to move on to the Washington Post story from earlier today about the donors to the ballroom. The Lost Show's got access to a list of the donors included previously undisclosed contributors who had benefited from regulatory decisions, government contracts, in one case a pardon for a family member. In the pardon case, this was the daughter of Julio Herrera Velutini, an international banker who in 2022 was indicted on bribery charges for financing the campaign of Puerto Rico's then governor and exchange for the removal of a regulator investigating his bank. So he was bribing the Puerto Rican governor to try to get a regulator off his back got indicted jails and now he's bribing our president to get the pardon that he got. Yeah, I mean, look, I think first anyone that was involved and has been involved with any of the corruption, particularly this ballroom issue is really interesting to see that through the full list. We've actually already said we're going to investigate we've already been looking at the ballroom and it's not just been our committee, but others as well in the Congress and if you're paying millions and millions of dollars, especially if you're also looking for a pardon and you're donating to Trump's ballroom. That's exactly the type of corruption that oversight is going to be looking at, and I think that you look at the long list, particularly some of the tech companies that are involved. I think it's crazy that so many of these American companies have essentially become ATMs or whatever project Donald Chumson wanted to do, particularly those that I think the American publicman strongly against like the ballroom and others. The ballroom still, we have no real reason as to why that was done. The reasons for in front of the court were shotty, the national security reasons, what he's doing is destroying an American treasure and a monument to the people. And it's really I think sad unfortunate that so many companies have bought into that, especially those that include people are trying to get parians. Yeah, and going back to Silicon Valley folks, one caught my eye in particular, Salesforce CEO, Mark Benioff, he'd been a big supporter of Democrats until recently took a very abrupt turn. I would notice Salesforce has been, I have got significant growth in the government contracting business that they've been doing. He I guess was with Trump at a business summit in Japan, while they're Trump thanked him for putting them on the cover of Time Magazine, Benioff but time. The following day, Benioff committed 1 million to the ballroom, according to the list and not been previously reported, he asked that it remained anonymous earlier this week, he posted about how that he was renaming his AI force, SI force. I don't know man, like this doesn't seem to be on the up and up to me. No, and it's very much bending to me to whatever Donald Trump wants. And he thought the only one by the way that started started calling it SI and basically doing whatever Donald Trump asks these tech guys to do. It's pretty clear that the tech industry, much and most of the tech industry and particularly these guys are leading these enormous companies that are benefiting of course from the government. And they're doing whatever Donald Trump wants, they're visiting him at the Oval Office, they're bringing in gifts. And I think it's so sad that the independence of these companies has now has now really been washed away. I mean, these guys are saying they want their donations to be anonymous, but of course now we know who's actually giving this money. And so I think more and more is going to come out where they promised anything, what conversations are being had, what are they being promised for these donations. I think all that's got to be investigated. Can you say like government contractors can't give anonymous donations to the president of the United States, like that's, I'm right about that, right. There are some loopholes in the law about those that are actually getting federal contracts that we actually need need to close because if you are gaining contracts from the government, you should not be allowed then to be involved with donations. And quite frankly, you shouldn't be involved to be involved in massive campaign donations as well. So all of that has got to be legislated the right way and hopefully we can do that in this next Congress. Well, during yesterday's Adred, we were discussing my belly. So it is appropriate that today we turn to our friends at hymns. If there's a weight loss goal, you keep chasing and never quite reaching. 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But then you have all the kids like where do you even start like how do you determine you know where to spend your time and energy assuming you guys take the gavel into anywhere. Well, I think I think first at the center of what we do at the top of the list has to be the Trump crime family anything to do with with Donald Trump the crypto schemes. I was chair customer trying to buy private islands two billion from the Saudis basically leading diplomacy but yet not a government employee. The red wedding hundreds of thousands of dollars you know from from Russian oil parks to don juniors wedding the sitting on boards that are getting contracts when the Pentagon. The list goes on and on you mentioned former ambassador Gulf oil and Kim the Gulf was don juniors beyond say I mean they were together for a very long time she is part of the Trump family and she's asking for a hundred thousand dollars to pay a credit card bill. From a Trump donor a a mega donor and so this goes on and on you reference the Kennedy Center you're talking about I'm going to Richard Grinnell someone that you and I both know a little little bit about who apparently you don't know that well. I think God I don't know him that well he likes to be in the mix and be involved but two accusations he's very good he likes to smear people yeah like to smear people but apparently there's you know he is now. I'm be thinking because you supposed to post some money and that never got deposited and there is all of this back and forth now about where that money is and so I think Mr. Grinnell should be honest with the American people has to wear that where that money actually actually is and so. All of this corruption has to be looked at where we're going to start is with the Trump family I think that is to me the most important piece and then you just reference this if you are an American corporation. And you've been in bed with the trumps if you are involved in corruption if you are getting promises for contracts if you are assisting dawn junior and all these other injured customer and all these other folks. In the corruption then you're also going to be investigated we're going to be asking some pretty tough questions so I think that is where you start as it relates to the Trump family look there's going to be more investigations on DHS and ice certainly on Jeffrey Epstein but but broadly speaking this will be a lot of work to do in the first few months. So like do I get to see Jared in front of the committee in January or is it going to take a little while obviously we love to have Jared in front of the committee in January but I think. As far as what the first hearing is and what the first kind of few weeks are going to look like it's all being a talking developer now. There are a couple of things I'm curious how you're kind of think what you're thinking about it. First is like it's the different layers of the way that they're going to try to stone while you guys like at the very first. There's just like this question of how you get access to their communications I mean by law a government business is public and should be done you know on public emails we went through this very famously with the secretary of state Clinton and had many many many many hearings about the fact that you had had an email server that was off government. And so it wasn't responsive to FOIA as best as I can tell these guys do all their business on signal you know on private apps and private servers like how are you going to force them to comply with laws with regards to open records etc. So you can get access to what they're doing when it comes to government business. I mean first obviously you know whatever we can actually get a hold of we're going to work to get whether that's through the courts whether that is through subpoena we have to be prepared that Todd Blanche particularly that the DOJ has a very work view of what actually is considered executive privilege. He's actually trying to expand the idea of what is privilege information so we can't access those documents there is a ton of information that they have been hiding from committees and essentially saying that they have privilege over which they don't know. That's going to be decided in the courts and so we're still in that process but but beyond that they are also communicating extensively with American business and private companies and not. profits and other organizations that don't have the same level of executive privilege to claim that we also are going to get information from. And so, if you've been in business with the Trump street communicating information out, that is an area where we're going to be very aggressive in gaining that information. And then, of course, trying to recover as much as possible. And then, of course, you have some cases like Keith Heggs, Seth and others where, I mean, there's signal change. They've actually become public because in some cases, these guys are idiots. And so, we're going to try to get as much information from them as possible, including information from whistle blows. Yeah, let's just use Jared as an example. Like, we know from reporting, Jared communicates with MBS via signal. MBS is paying Jared money. Jared is the lead negotiator for us in multiple wars. What do you do with that? Like, how do you go about, you know, trying to compel, you know, Jared to share documents when he's doing it on disappearing apps, and he's like pretending like he's not really even a government employee. So, I think when it comes to Jared Custard, I mean, one is we're going to do everything we can, obviously to get to get him, the associates, those involved in affinity partners. And anyway, it's working with Jared on the record in the committee and in any kind of testimony. So, I mean, we've got to make every effort possible, including if we've got to go through a process through the courts. I mean, that's that's number one. Number two, if you look at affinity partners or other, Jared isn't working in a silo. He has employees. He works with other people in his organization. There are folks that he is giving direction to have communication. So, we have to be obviously as creative, obviously legal in the way that we're doing our work, but we've got to be creative and also understanding what the network looks like and trying to get as much information from the network as possible. And it's not a perfect science, but it isn't a process we're going to take as well. Do you have a big enough staff for this? Oh, I mean, I wish we had two to three times as big a staff, but we have we have an incredible team that is that is growing and it'll grow in the majority. One of the reasons why it's important for us to win in November is that in the majority, the staff of your committee increases pretty dramatically. So, I'm sure we can find you some pro bono lawyers. I'm sure we have some lawyers listening who'd be excited to contribute some pro bono services to this effort just because they're patriots, just because they love their country, you know? Absolutely. And we've had those offers and we're going to be taking up a lot of those offers in the midst of head for sure. I'm talking about immigration. You mentioned it really quick. Two things. One, there's a story with your colleague, Congresswoman Omar, her home was rated. I guess we're looking to immigration forms filled out by her father, her late father decades ago. They're trying to build a case for denaturalization and deportation. This is just obvious like political targeting and abuse. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that. Now, I'm first of all, I mean, it's dangerous. I mean, the fact that the president is going into his opposition, I mean, members of Congress, members of his opposing party and going into their homes, ransacking their homes, taking their phones, taking God knows what other other information to try to target her. I think the effort, I think what you said is exactly right, to try to somehow take away her citizenship because of people where her father filled out when she was a child is completely ridiculous. And so, this is the kind of thing that Donald Trump has done and he continues to escalate. It's weaponizing the government, the DOJ, in this case, Homeland Security, to go after his targets, to go after the people that he perceives are his enemies. And in this case, this is clearly a violation of the law. And so, this is obviously going to be litigated, but it's also quite, it's scary. I mean, if you're, if you're, Ilhan Omar's family and you're having these agents come in early in the morning and take all this stuff, I mean, he's a sick man who is just obsessed with going after his enemies. And so, obviously we stand by, by Ilhan, and this is a complete attempt to go after his enemies. And so, we've got to push back on it. We've got to be vocal and loud about it. If you guys are working on corruption, who is working on oversight of what's happening with ICE and obviously what is happening, we don't know what's happening in a lot of these detention centers. I mean, there's so many cases, there's one in particular I've been talking about, which involves a professor at Los Angeles Pierce College. It's not so far from your district. Mariam Thomas Sebby, she is a teenage boy who is in Dilly detention center because Marco Rubio stripped them of their green card status because of what the boy's grandmother did in 1979. It's a totally outrageous affront, but there are tons of examples about this. I've been emailing with Murray Infrared Inside Dilly and the story she tells are just horrifying. What's the oversight look like when it comes to ICE and cases like that? So, obviously from the oversight committee perspective, a DHS and ICE is going to be one of our major investigative lanes. It's not just the horrors that are happening at Dilly or here in California at Adelante or numerous other detention centers across the country, but it's a connection of those who are profiting from deporting folks, those that are profiting from locking people up. The reality is that there are four or five major groups, companies, people that are benefiting enormously financially from every single person that goes with a detention center. There are incentivized. The government as well as those that are profiting are incentivized by sending more people to detention. That is the inhumanity of actually going on right now. These people are basically a profit for those that are building these centers, buying these centers, or buying them now from the government. In some cases, the government is giving some of these companies huge payouts. And that's because Donald Trump chose to increase the budget for ICE and detention essentially 10 times what it was. I mean, ICE is the largest federal law enforcement agency in the country now. It's larger than the FBI. And that was not the case before the last couple of years. And so we want to get to the bottom two. Who was involved in building this structure? When you have folks like Kristi Noem or Corey Lewandowski, who there's a lot of reporting, we're involved in essentially some paid-of-play type schemes and building some of this process. That's where oversight comes in. We are going to, I don't care if you're not on the government anymore. So just because Kristi Noem was not the secretary anymore or Lewandowski's not around, we are still going to investigate them and get to the bottom of what actually happened. Well, at the same time, the Homeland Security Committee and others are going to be very much focused on what's actually happening inside these detention centers right now. Yeah, got it. Can you even get into like the detention centers in California? You can't. I mean, I think they have tried to stop it. Like you mentioned, Dilly. I mean, there are members of Congress have gone into and cleaned myself. We've worked to get into detention centers all across the country. It feels like they're making it as hard as possible, though. Of course. And preventing people to have access to some of these stories. Okay, really quick. Two more things. Chief of staff news, political destroy today. Donald Trump might be unhappy with Suzy. Someone needs to be the fall person. If the midterms go poorly, possible replacement standards are political today. We're Steven Miller, the Yankees president, Randy Levine. I'm not really a big baseball man, but I guess I'm rooting against the Yankees now. Kevin McCarthy's lobbying for the job again. Your guy. Kevin wants the job. It's always in all these stories. It's always like, you know, somebody on background saying, you know, who would be really good? Kevin. Kevin. I'm sure that's Kevin McCarthy on background saying that it's pretty concerning that I even have Steven Miller. I'd like the power. It's just crazy. He shouldn't be in charge of anything, quite frankly, but I mean, Steven Miller may be the most dangerous person in the White House as it relates to the, you know, human rights and people that are suffering across this country. And the idea that he would become the chief of staff, I think, is frightening and crazy. Obviously, Kevin McCarthy failed speaker. I mean, the guy couldn't hold his caucus together. I'm not sure how he can manage agencies or do anything, but I mean, he loved kissing Donald Trump's ass. And so it wouldn't surprise me for McCarthy to want to be in that role and basically just do whatever Donald Trump tells him not push back. Then the knee, go out and follow his orders. That would not surprise me. He got to take small joys in this world. And Kevin McCarthy lobbying and leaking to become a Donald Trump flunky and then getting passed over is one of my small joys. All right, we've got Alan coming up next. The traders. Do you watch the traders? You have time to watch the trade? I do actually. I haven't watched the current season, but I've watched all the other seasons before this current one that obviously I know is a first like non select release. How good are you at it? So this is what I wanted to bring this up because when you want, I watched it for the first time over the weekend. I was never, I'm not a huge reality TV guy. Okay. And I was like, man, my biggest takeaway was people are way worse at identifying traders than they think they are. And like your job now is to snuff people out. So as a consumer of the show, how good do you think you are on it? It's funny you say this because I've seen all the other prior seasons. And I think it's actually a show that I had to do pretty good at. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think you've got to, you know, you got to be able to hold your cards tight, you got to build good relationships, snuff out who the bad guys are. And so it's a, it's a show I hopefully I think you can produce it. All right. Well, great. If you do your job the next two years because you're not going to be allowed to sleep, you get a lot of subpoenas, a lot of work. In 2029, I'll put in a good word for you with Alan coming. Yeah. Till Alan, I'd like to be on the next season. Okay. Yeah. We'll put you on 2029. All right. That's Congressman Robert Garcia. Appreciate it very much. We'll be standing in close touch as things before nonetheless. All right. Thanks, man. And now a message for our sponsor, the reading room. As of this week, Todd Blanche has officially been Trump's attorney general for over a month. And the full Epstein files still aren't public. Instead of waiting on the government to stop its cover up, the Donald J Trump and Jeffrey Epstein Memorial reading room has printed out three and a half million pages the DOJ has released and built a free travel exhibit that puts the files on display. At the museum, you can actually walk through to see the scale of the release files, the timeline of Trump and Epstein's relationship and attribute to the survivors. It's open now for 20 plus. stops. So it's a perfect sponsor to have for this episode with Robert Garcia, who has been fighting the good fight to get these files released when we talking to him about how we might be able to support the mission of the Donald J. Trump and Jeffrey Epstein Memorial reading room by getting more files out in the months to come. You won't be surprised to hear that moving 17,000 pounds of evidence and the bookshelves needed to hold it across the country. Ain't cheap. And the reading room runs entirely on donations. So this is something you want more people to see. You can learn more and chip in to fund the tour at trumpepsyenreadingroom.com/bolwork or check out our morning shots newsletter. Welcome back. He's the Tony Award-winning actor, immigrant, and host of the traders. You might have seen him there. It's Alan Cumming. What's happening? Welcome to the board daily. Thank you very much. I love immigrant being my second building. Well, this is why it's your second building. My producer received the following pitch from a friend. Alan Cumming is a naturalized citizen. In America, he wants to join some political conversations about U.S. politics. And I saw that and I was like, why would you want to do that? What would possibly be the rationale for that for you? Which part being a citizen or joining having a conversation? Both. Yeah. You pick. I became a citizen so I could vote in America. So I guess that's, you know, it's the sort of the chicken and the egg. I had a green card for many years and the only thing you can't do with a green card is vote. And so I just thought as I'm, you know, shooting my mouth off a lot about what I feel about American life and society and the society that I became part of, I wanted to actively take part in it at the ballot box too, so I became a citizen. But right now, I want to talk about it because I feel, you know, this is every, every election is important, but it feels like this one is incredibly important. Yeah. I mean, the other reason I gave him a second building is because it's just something that I'm so focused on. And to me, I think, you know, gets a little bit short shrift in the conversation about all the various outrages by the administration. And I mean, you said that you're on a green card for a while. We have people that are green card holders now. We're holding in camps because of the whim of the Secretary of State. And, you know, obviously, you're kind of in a world where, you know, a lot of people that are, you know, trying to come in and out of American society. Like that in particular, you know, is, to me, maybe the most depressing and outrageous part of Trump to point out the way we've made the lives of immigrants here. So miserable. It made it so hard for people who are trying to come here to enrich our country. That's like impossible to do so now. And what's your kind of experience in that world? Well, even before Trump 2.0, I mean, the sort of demonization of immigrants, of the word immigrant and of immigration itself, I did a show actually, a sort of concert show, called legal immigrant, that was about my experience of being being an immigrant in America. As a privileged white man, if I felt the change and the sort of the chill in the time that I had lived in America against immigrants, imagine what it must be like to be a person of color or a Muslim or a trans person, you know, immigrant. So I'm really fascinated by that. And one of the things I said in that show was that I said, I feel that if you're anti-immigration and you're really seeing you're anti-American, because the whole notion of America, I mean, we know it was built by immigrants, that's the phrase it's landed about, but they actually is built on an idea of bringing people from all over the world to kind of come here and make this new, do this grand, new experiment. I feel that has been so lost. And there's this kind of reclaiming of a myth that, you know, white people only started America. I feel like, you know, everyone actually is an immigrant in America, unless you need to have an American and an indigenous person. So to me, it's been this really upsetting, but incredibly clever rewriting of history about what America is. And I just think is when people are angry, it's the thing that people, you know, various dictatorships and various regimes always use. The, you know, immigration is sort of the lowest hanging fruit alongside queer people and trans people. That's always what is used initially to be can point our fingers and everybody who's in a, who feels dispossessed and how are done by can point their fingers at somebody else to blame for their situation. And that is exactly what's happened over the last decade, at least in America. Yeah, I mean, the vice president here in particular, is trying to take that definition that you laid out and just create a whole different story. I mean, like the point that you made one way that they talk about it is like, as I say, that America is not a creed old nation, like JD Vance give a big speech about this during the campaign where he talks about like if you, if you believe that America is just anybody who has freedom in their heart and wants to come here, then the whole world could be American. And that definition is too broad and that we need to narrow it. And so that's kind of their like high-minded Winnie the Pooh and Tuxedo way to try to get their like nativism and hate in, you know, through polite society. Yes, I mean, I'm really bored of actually trying to talk around and make excuses for just blatant racism and huge sues of the population being encouraged to use hateful rhetoric against anyone who's different to them. It feels utterly un-American to me. I still feel we're not being angry enough and we're not being or not calling it out enough. I mean, it's exhausting, of course, because so much happens every single day, but it really is goaling that in 2026, this is still happening. This idea of this regime being able to rewrite history after even after all the the last few years. I can't believe it's actually happening. It's embarrassing actually and that's what I think is really it's embarrassing above all else. I'm embarrassed. That's true. I don't know. The wrong people probably are embarrassed though, maybe. Well, it's so interesting. I think I was thinking about this today, with that new press secretary, that clearly a lot of people who voted for Trump are intelligent, educated people. You can't just say, "Oh, they're just dope." There are obviously millions and millions of people who voted for them. Maybe they don't, maybe, hopefully, they don't still support, and maybe they have. It feels to me from afar, I'm in Europe right now, that the tide is turning, that you see more people speaking out against him, that it's not quite so blanket in its denial of anything but adulation for him. But there's such a lot of people who are intelligent and clever, and for whatever reason, they're choosing to support this person, but they can't not be embarrassed. They can't not, if you have a power of analysis and intelligence, know that the world is just thinking what, and disgrace, and how, and the laughing, and terrified, of course, as well, but like the new press lady, just laughing at the ineptitude, how can you not be embarrassed about that, that just someone who gets stands up there, who is, and this is not just some high school debating society or some little, you know, town in the middle of nowhere where someone's standing up to talk about the current affairs, this is the presidency of the United States as representative, fumbling over their words, and it's just embarrassing. I am embarrassed, and I don't even, and even if I supported or agreed with the insane thing she was saying, I think I would still be embarrassed that that was the person who was representing me. What you raised there, it's one of the things I wanted to ask you about, about obviously some of these people who are smart people that supported this, they can't all be morons, and I will admit, I was not like a watcher of the traders, you know, I have a daily podcast here, I'm doing my best out there, I'm not really a big reality showperson, but I binged it over the weekend just for kicks, and then you kind of sucked me in after you did suck me in, but my takeaway, which is maybe the obvious takeaway, which is a conceit of the show, is like, people are not as good at identifying liars as they think they are, right? Yes. Like, one of the things that is revealed from the show is that it's easier to pull over the wool over people's eyes, even smart people, like you have people who are lawyers, doctors, it's easier to pull the wool over their eyes than you think it is, and I wanted to pick your brain about whether that experience gave you a different view over how easy it was for the demagoguery to happen in politics. I think the difference is that in a show like the traders, you know that there are liars there, you're looking for liars, and so in a political regime that you support, you don't think there's going to be a lie because you've supported them and you voted for them, so it's kind of a big difference, but I think what's interesting to me about the show, well, really, I find fascinating, is that it is, you know, especially in the most recent one, which is with real people, the one that's on right now, the ordinary Americans, it is sort of a kind of America and a microcosm, it is about, you know, clearly there was some people on that show who were voted for Trump, some of the contestants, the players, I feel that what is really interesting, is about how each series kind of sort of plays out in terms of what is happening in the country. And this one, the way this present one comes out, the one that's one NBC right now, is it's a very fascinating and brilliant ending for, you know, what I hope America can be. I feel like also, though, you know, one of the things that is interesting is that what is bringing people together right now on TV is this show about murder and treachery. In a safe sort of way, we know that, you know, you can be evil, you can say all these things, you can say you want to kill people in a very safe sort of way. But it's done in a form, in a show that is incredibly theatrical, is incredibly camp, is very queer. I am very queer and I am many times in it kind of in a dressing in a non-binary way. I am a middle-aged queer man and people are loving the theatricality, the calmness and the queerness of this show. And that I think is really fascinating and heartening to me that at a time when queerness and and otherness is so vilified by the government that the public are watching in droves at something that is essentially a very queer type of entertainment. That completes another thing I wanted to pick your brain about because I, you know, there's a way to look at this. It's a little polyanna or whatever. And so I don't probably, you know, some people might roll their eyes at this notion. But like, the other side Trump has used kind of reality show tropes and skills to advance his more nefarious agenda, right? And I do feel like as a result, we've kind of had a reality showification of our politics. And I think that there have been a lot of times the Democrats and those of us fighting out some of nothing as good at adapting to that world. And I do wonder like from your experience that you're just laying out of kind of like getting some some queer themes into some mass market, a mass market show, like whether you think that there are lessons there for Democrats as they look ahead to 28, etc. to maybe use some of the powers for good, if you will. But I think it's it's it's good to remember that there is a group of people who are the minority, who are blaming minorities and the lowest hanging fruit for their problems. And you know, moving over to trans people in sport or immigrants are these things that become big issues only as smoke screens for the for what else is going on. The president has been mentioned, I can't remember the number, the percentage of times more in the Epstein files than there are actually trans athletes playing in competitions. You know, ridiculous things like that. So there's just huge inverse ratio to how important something is again, a versus how the government wants to look away from what really is important. I think though that's hardening to remember that that is the case. People aren't really that bothered. I think we're being kind of fired up to bother. But I think the thing that's really more scary and dangerous is the pack mentality and the sort of the Lord of the Flies thing that happens in the traders and indeed in our culture. When we all get riled up by each other and we all follow along and we want to belong, we want to be part of a tribe. I mean, it's easier to sort of go along with what we're being told than sort of maybe analyze for ourselves and have our own opinion about it. That's what's new is dangerous and that's what I find really goaling when I'm working on the show is how insanely stupid decisions people make on it because they are in this sort of pack mentality and that's something that's still very prevalent, incredibly prevalent and Kirby dangerous in our in our society. More prevalent now. I mean, you see it in the online discourse and this is like something that is not limited to just, I mean, obviously you see this on the mega right, but do you see this across the board or just yeah, how easy it is for people to want to go along with, I mean, like you watch on the show, some stupid theory that's like obviously like wrong or you know, it's a fake piece of information that someone think the shared that they think is true and then people go along with it. I mean, we saw this in the gallery go thing this week, for example. Yeah, you know, it's it's your algorithm. It's funny. This show I've gone on stars right now called tiptoe is really terrifying and distressing about various things. But one of the things is about the role of social media and how we, you know, we get into that algorithm bubble and we only get more information about the thing that was wrong in the first place or the prejudice that is dangerous in the first place and media it just fires and fuels us and that is that's what I feel is really scary to me. It's just how do we get out of that? How it's it's it's difficult and it's expensive and it's time consuming to actually find the truth sometimes and it's easier to just let to live in the algorithm bubble and just to be guided by and sadly, you know, guided by kind of people who have nefarious ends. And also you don't want to get out of power. That's the other thing. I think this is, you know, thing about the American politics has always really stymied me and frustrated me and I just can't stand it. There's only two parties. It's a sport. It's not really. It's just about, it's either our team or your team. You're with us or you against us. You don't want to give anything to the other team. You don't want to admit the right in any way and you desperately want to hang on to the bottle. Your team is winning and you want to keep winning. And I think that's what I think people in America don't realize that there's no other democracy in the world and it is barely a democracy right now. But you know, this is, it is a democracy dish. But there's no democracy in the world that only has two parties except America. Everyone, even in Scotland, you know, like Scotland, which has some of like six million people or something in the entire country, and has about at least seven parties in its parliament, different parties, that are all part of a coalition. You know, the idea that it's just this binary is, well, you just see the results. It just becomes a team of sport and nobody, everyone's shouting at each other from different mountains and we're never going to get anything really changed. Well, it's going to help for our team to win this time. So you have a few things changed. Yes, sure. Absolutely. I want to go back to you kind of the queer themes and stuff that you're talking about because it is, I was going back and I was deeply in the closet myself in 1998. So I had blinders on that prevented me from seeing this. So I just, I just learned this today as I was reading about you that you came out on the cover of Out Magazine that year, 1998. And I'm kind of just wondering, I mean, a, that took a lot of courage and it takes courage to speak out now about Trump because a lot of people are scared they're going to get targeted, particularly people who have, you know, have immigration questions. It's kind of, I got to be hard to imagine. Like, here we are 28 years after that. And it does feel like there was kind of a straight line of progress from your cover in 1998 through about eight years ago. And, and that stuff is slipping away a bit. I'm kind of wondering your perspective on that. Yeah, clearly, such a terrible, I mean, people are going back into the closet to hear things like that happening. And there's obviously threats to our rights are happening all the time. Trans people especially though, I feel like it's just so awful the way that trans people, one of the things I think that the managed equality movement got, got right. And how, why it happened was to basically just sort of, you know, talk the language that people understand in America, which is commerce and basically gay managers, gay people spend a lot of money on their weddings. And so once that started and all the different states slowly, nobody, nobody complained because they were making a fortune. And I, I feel like, you know, what is so tragic is that trans people don't really contribute that much to the economy. And I feel I can't help but think that that is why they are even more targeted and being so vilified right now. It's just, I'm just horrified by the lack of humanity and kindness that is so inherent in this anti-trans crusade. It's absolutely horrible. But I feel every queer movement and there's many in around the world, you're always teetering on the brink of disaster and rights being pulled back. And we just have to be completely vigilant. And I think it's just a question of even in America, you still have many rights that you didn't used to have. But they are under threat and it's not just about the legality of them, but it's more about the rhetoric and the idea that all this violence is, again, it's just something that tiptoes very much doing with the way that violent rhetoric, anti-gay, anti-immigrant rhetoric is being so normalized and the way that we are endurored to these, to the way that people are being talked about in such a dehumanizing way, that is going to take a long, long, long time to change and to get back to a sort of kind fear just America, even more than any rights that might be have been repealed. Yeah, especially when you have the Vice President, we'll be the Republican Frontrunner, probably in 2028. He was doing some 1998-style gay jokes this week on the campaign trail. He was in Texas and he shouted a guy in the crowd, "I love you too, sir." And a totally platonic way to be clear, I'm the Vice President, not James Talleriko, which is not that great of a gay joke I wouldn't say. I mean, you know they're running scared when you're making jokes like that. I mean, I think it's, I think he's amazing. I'm really fascinated by Texas in terms of the way that it's sort of, I don't know, has Texas ever been in recent times Democrat? And Richards was the last statewide Texas. Yeah, she's governor has early 90s. Yes, that's been quite a while. But it's so exciting that it was like with Beto O'Rourke kind of the last time, you know, it's so fascinating. That's becoming a state that is, I mean, I'm so heartened actually by things like that and by things like democratic socialist candidates doing so well. I'm so full of hope and about Mamdani in New York and the way that he has shown and he has promised things and delivered them and he's made the idea of the word social and not socialism, not so scary to people. And I am heartened by things like that. I'm even heartened that the vice president is trying to make gay jokes because he's threatened by Tariqa. I'm asking you to put on your kind of traders contesting glasses here, but maybe a little projection from him and it just does kind of remind me of some of the bullies that last for me to jerk off with them and then also made fun of me at the same time a little bit. Oh, this getting such terrible visuals about J.D. Vance. I mean, I think it's too easy to sort of say, you know, you know, make it about the things that doth protest too much when people do that. I mean, I don't really care. That to me is not important. I don't care either. I just, he's a little fake, I guess, is my point. I don't know. There's just a lot of projection for fake people. I don't, look, I mean, I was in the closet for a while. I used to be fake and lie and I blossomed into my full self, which is nice, but I'm a podcast or he's the vice president. And he kind of reminds me of my closet itself a bit. He's changed his name three times. He lies a lot. He's changing his religion. I mean, he was sort of, he was sort of, um, colloceted in terms of his, the way he wrote about his life. Yeah. And, and, you know, I think it was so interesting. I remember last when he was first came on the scene, there was like a, I heard a podcast, but a friend of it who'd been who was trans and about how he has sort of had a falling out with them. Like he was nice and, yeah. And now, and now it gets meaner and meaner. Right. He's a bit involved. But sometimes in a bad way. And I think that's clearly what has happened with him. But I mean, yeah, he's obviously a very insecure person in terms of his identity. But I don't know whether that extends to a sexuality. And I do, he don't want to think about it. Sure. Yeah. That's fair. That's fine. I guess my point is that he, you know, as a viewer, as a non-contestant of the traders, as a viewer, you can, you feel it's one of the fun things about watching is that you feel like you know who the people are that are lying. You know, the traders, you know, once you can see the signs in them, you can see the ways in which they act fake. And it's very clear to you as a viewer. And I just feel like with JD Vance, like he's very clearly a traitor. I guess that's what I'm saying. I could very clear that he's full of shit. You know, that's that's my only. I'll go to you with that. Yeah. It's very clear to me that he's full of shit. Yeah. We have some other gays in this administration. It's pretty. I don't know. This is another thing I'm embarrassed about. Think of embarrassment as a gay American that we, you know, I would have thought that our first gay treasury secretary would have put a better foot forward than Scott Bessent. But I don't know. What do you, what do you make of that character? Again, embarrassing. Just like, what is going on? Do you think they think that that's, you know, appointing people who are so ill-equipped to do their jobs? Is anyone embarrassed? Is anyone sort of think, are these the best people? Do you think they really think that? Scott Bessent doesn't seem embarrassed. He seems very proud of himself. I mean, he is like a classic stuff shirt, you know? I mean, like the sort of the, you know, intelligent, educated Trump voters. Yeah. Like the folks around them. I guess I don't think so. I think that they've decided. Here's my putting them on the couch for you. I think that when Trump won the smart, if you will, Republican types who were not with him at the beginning decided that he had some secret magic sauce that allowed us being the Republicans them to win twice, and that maybe they should take after more like him. And it's kind of funny that he makes the people that they hate, like you, so upset, you know? And they enjoy, they revel in it. And so I think that while it's not exactly their style, I think that they've come to, to really like it, you know, that they get to have, like, bring out their bad wolf. And they like that everybody is so exasperated by how clownish it is. Like I think that that's what's happened. That's my cycle analysis. It's the team sporting again. It's the other team are sort of losers or it's nice to sort of, it's like they're taunting. They love taunting us with even more torjory and vial sort of people or ideas. I mean, it is truly disappointing that people can turn a blind eye to so much terrible stuff. We have a thing that I think Trump has working for him that sometimes the people make him laugh. I think that this is the advantage. Maybe we have with Trump versus JD Vance. JD Vance is so dour. And with Trump, you had him, I don't know if you saw this week he was talking about John Hustead's ass and how great it looks. He's the sky running for Senate. And there's the campiness to him. Yeah. He was talking about Ohio Senate candidates ass and how sculpted it was. Wow. I mean, he has been to talk about people's bodies a lot. I think it's really interesting. He talks about them. I mean, I think I don't know. I'm also intrigued about, you know, where do we all stand now on his mental health and his health in general? I mean, like, how is he doing? I mean, I'm not in America right now. I mean, for a little while, he's obviously reading news and things, but how is he so does he seem? Yep. Still bruises on the hand and the legs look weird. I mean, if you watch old videos of him versus now, it's pretty notable that a client and it just is what happens to everybody. Yeah. Like the 2016 rally videos versus now, like he is significantly slower. Yeah. And his mental acumen. Yeah. Not great. Never great. And so you're kind of going down from a little baseline. It's not funny because terrible terrible thing. People are being murdered on the streets of America because of him. And yet, it's also two things can be the same kind of happen at the same time. That is happening. It is utterly embarrassing, but it's also hilarious. It's hilarious. I mean, he was talking about taking out telling Iran to take out Los Angeles and San Francisco last week. Was that last just last week? How did 12 times of 5 circle? But yeah, I was recently. I have such a difficult sort of relationship with time that I sometimes say to my assistant, why is that person not responded to me about that? And you went to them this morning. And I think, I thought that was weeks ago. And I feel that's maybe a product of having lived in America during Trump times because you're sort of this bombarded with so much shit and kind of insanity that you just can't obviously exhausted and enured by it, but also you just have no concept of what happened when and what new things. I mean, I think this new lady, this new press lady, I mean, I do feel that so a new low in terms of you don't like the casting there. You don't think that that's believable? No, it's totally believable for what, if I was casting a film about the new press secretary for the Trump administration, she would be, she would have absolutely top the list. No, I think the casting is great. It's not a little, I thought it was maybe a little, a little much. I thought you'd watch the first screening and come back and be like, can we dial back the Ditz num level just a little bit? I mean, I just, but it's just, it's beyond, you know, we've gone through all these emotions. I don't know. And in funny way, I think I'm coming at this, I just kind of like kind of laughing as well as being furious. I think that's, you know, it's like, in the same way, there's just this duality, there's binary of American politics. There's also a binary in how you have to be able to survive and exist because you've got to be able to still have some sort of sense of finding it funny and ridiculous and absurd as well at the same time as being terrified. Yes, that's exactly what I go for on the show every day. So thank you. You're right on beam for us. You're welcome. I just have a couple of scots things for you. Then I'll let you go. Why haven't you guys kicked them out yet? He's got the golf course there. You know, now there's the picture Natalie's like running following him on the golf cart while he's on the course. Why haven't you guys nationalized that course or something? You know, that's a thing, I suppose, because we are a democracy and we don't do things like that. But I mean, we do nationalized things, but we don't, you know, you can't just take something that you don't like and change it. Maybe eminent domain, you know, I don't know, turn it into some windmills or something. Well, that's, I mean, he, it's so fascinating. His beauty about the windmills, his, his golf course in Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire, looks on to the North Sea and he was, and there's loads of the windmill farms on, and they are he's furious about that. But the thing I think about, you know, Trump in Scotland is that when he first came, when he was first running for president and I was a visit, you know, resolved about building the wall was all happening on that. There was a mariachi band playing outside his golf course when they arrived. And there's a very, very famous thing, as a comedian called Janey Godley, he's sadly no longer with us, but she, there's a very famous photograph. of a policeman. She was on the golf course in Aberdeenshire where he was going and she was holding up a picture, an old lady holding up a sign which says Trump is a seaward which is something we use very a lot more frequently in Scotland than you do in America but you know sea next Tuesday it was written Trump as a sea next Tuesday. I'm not going to say it and there's a policeman kind of coming towards her sort of like oh mom you know you can't really do that and it became such a huge thing it's such a huge thing but the spirit of Scotland that this old lady is holding a sign saying that on his golf course and at the BAFTA award and so she was this comedian this woman. I'd met her and at the BAFTA Scottish BAFTA awards that you know my mom was meant to me I was getting some award and I saw this lady and the first one I didn't recognise her because she was all kind of you know it's a little bit farer force at her Jamie her hair was all thinking should it gorgeous and I was like oh my god I didn't recognise you and my mom was like oh my mom this is this is Jenny you know you know her and mom went no who and I went Trump is a cunt and my mom went oh yeah of course like that oh I said it bullshit sorry we got it that's okay I was hoping you'd do it you know you guys also some more creative insults like you know in those signs I remember when I had Alistair Campbell on a couple of months ago and this is politics UK I asked asked him for some like you know UK insults of Trumps that are creative and he offered for me sleeket wazok which I still don't really know what that is sleeket sleeket means like slimy what's the second word wazak wazak or wazak or wazak oh yes think it wazak yeah like just dick dick it yeah it was a really good one I saw I remember when when when you came one time and it said it was said I think this is in London it went it was a sign that said donald we all think you're a bail end a bail and I think that's a bit do you know that means yes yeah sure yeah so that that's a good one I like I like that yeah we're really good at insults I think in Scotland you have any other ones you want to try on me and about jump um or JD I can't think any we know sort of ones that I would be able to say but I just wanted to also talk about Hemp top you know it's it's kind of awful his mum was scottish his mum was from Ayurved Louis he's half scottish your fault it's partly her fault yeah although she's the one who said it you know she said some really damning things about him and obviously was a good judge of character because she said the things she said about her son a really incredible that Steve you I've read that right but that's something about the Scottish spirit though that I don't like your little if you're a little if you're a little warmer I could she put a little warmer to her son and loved him a little more maybe he would have been able to kind of flower into like his true purpose I think he was kind of meant to be like the owner of a Broadway theater I think he would have felt much more gratified I mean though his dad wasn't exactly a good rule model I think you can't blame all on the Scottish mum I think it's you know look at the racist father who was you know chucking people of color out of their houses and you know I think it's sort of a confluence of many things that created him and obviously I love that book about that his niece was it his niece or cousin wrote and he was a who's a therapist and talked about you know his various personality disorders fascinating it is just a big stain on Scotland that I think that you know that his mum his mum Lewis we can't we've just got delivered it we've we have bigger fish to fry but it's pretty downing for us we do all right we got the bedrooms coming up I appreciate you wanting to engage on this is anything else you want to pop off on anything I didn't talk to you about that you've got you know kind of rattling around around the old brain I guess it's just like how important is to try and have hope about the about the democratic system they are so relying on us being exhausted and being frustrated and feeling it's worthless to fight and to vote and to protest and I feel like this is the last ditch attempt we have to they're running scared obviously but just try and find some more reserves and energy to fight and to encourage people to vote I'm really heartened by young people actually and how much young people are engaged but I feel it's more people of older older people are sort of bored about you know if things haven't got any better before now why should we bust their asses to do it now I think we've got to try and gal the nice people yeah that's what I think and I would just encourage people there's a really good thing they did here in Scotland to visit about you know if you vote and you really feel passionate about this call 10 more people today and ask them to do it I think that's a really good sort of way to go about it I love it he's host of the traders that sound coming I agree with all of that 100 percent if there's new programs out on at eight o'clock on Thursdays on NBC he teased earlier in the show that there's a really wonderful ending to the program so you know it's not too late to it's getting it it is amazing yeah I can't wait I cannot wait it's brutal but it's brilliant when is it does it end right around the midterm what must when's the final episode do you know I'm not sure I mean I think it should mean I don't know how many of how many if you're hard we've had five five and how many weeks of the midterms three oh well it's not going to don't be it won't be but it will whatever it will be a bomb or else it will be a great midterm and then we'll have something to look forward to for dessert wonderful ending to the traders Alan coming thank you so much for the time coming on the bulwark we'll see you again soon all right brother thanks ten yeah take care bye bye bye don't you you're still a trader the bulwark daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper associate producer Anzli Skipper and with video editing by Dante DeCicco and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brow