AI Revolution in the Job Market: Launching AI Apply - An AI-Powered Job Search Tool, With Co-Founder Aidan Kramer

certainly credibly competitive market for people that are looking for work, and what are the basic things job applicants are getting wrong? Even today we're like you know infinite amount of information on how to write a paper resume, we'll start to include, exclude people are still kind of choosing high design over simplicity. Where do you think you learnt that mindset of just going for it, starting small, building from there? For something that you know 13 million views and tens of thousands of followers, that were a percentage yes, and it kind of showed me that the power of generous AI and using this new technology to solve real problems for consumers that have you know are in a fight pain situation. Initiating a launch sequence. Four, three, two, one. Hey then Kramer, welcome to ready for launch, how are you doing today? I'm doing great thanks in, how are you? I'm good, very excited to complete the Kramer family on this podcast, we had your sister on right at the beginning and yeah great to have you on the show. Would you do me the honours of introducing your business and sharing what's unique about it? Yes, so my business is AI Apply and it is a platform for job seekers that leverages AI, Generative AI to help them find, apply and get the best of all jobs. Great, you mentioned Generative AI there, could we just do a little bit of a explainer of what that is and how that is different to maybe other types of AI for people who are super versed in this space? Yeah, so Generative AI is the type of AI that is used in chat GPT and it's based on something called LLMs which are large language models. So there's a type of training and using these artificial intelligence algorithms to produce and generate new artificial information, in this case text data which we use for generating resumes and carletters and completing applications for job seekers. Perfect, okay so yeah maybe you could just expand on the types of services that people would come to AI Apply for and how you can help them. Sure, so we're ensuring a world and I'll give you a bit of context, we're ensuring a world that is filling more job seekers than ever. So it's an incredibly competitive market for people that are looking for work and we have a suite of tools that help for job seekers find the best matching jobs for them. So we use AI to uncover the skills within their resume and their experience and match them with jobs that are suitable to them and then we help them tailor their application for each individual job. So every application that they send to an employer they have a high likelihood of actually getting asked to an interview and then when they are asked to run into you we have a suite of tools that help them prepare and actually conduct themselves during that interview. So they can upload that resume and connect the job they apply to and it will generate a customized mock interview for that role so they can prepare themselves and make sure when it comes they're increasing their chances of getting to the next stage. Gotcha. And how much of this is everything that your company does managed by AI or is there some combination of experts plus technology involved? So the backbone is AI. We kind of send all of our prompts and our information to these large language models and they kind of help the responses for us to generate application kits and resumes etc. The bit where they're humanism autumn is actually creating the prompts that we send to the LLM. So the difference between kind of a professional career coach understanding what needs to be put to the resume, what type of job to suit someone and not using professional career coach to create those prompts is what makes us quite unique. So we do use professionals to make sure that the prompts we're using to the AI are as affected as they can be. You mentioned in your explanation of AI chat GPT. Are you using chat GPT or some version of it in your business or do you build your own AI and train that with your own models how does that work? No, so we're essentially using chat GPT. So we're using an API call to open AI and we're using GPT for at the moment. But at the moment it's kind of getting a bit competitive with these large language models and we are looking at kind of switching between different LLMs. So there's ones released by Google, there's some open source ones and they all have different trade-offs, some are more expensive, some are slower but that would do a better output. And the library ideas will change to a model that does us, you know, higher limits so we can put more information in and get more information out from it and another lower cost. So there's kind of a hidden competitive landscape with these LLM providers and then people like us that are building on top of them, they become kind of our backend infrastructure but we can swap it out quite easily. And other than the prompts that you're creating to get those responses, do you have to do any additional training or provide them any extra content that allows it to give you the best results? So you can, you can put the kind of imported data sets and you can kind of train it on a specific use case before we do and we're not, we are just using the standard models and using kind of specific data from the resume and the job seeker to get a good output. And what are the basic things job applicants are getting wrong when they apply the jobs that you're helping them solve? So even today with like, you know, infinite amount of information on how to write the paper resume, what type of stuff to include, exclude, people are still kind of choosing high design over simplicity and those kind of things can get blocked by African tracking systems and automated tools, you know, pass the CVs and data people get through. So we're kind of standardizing the resume. So every resume we get uploaded, we pull out all the information and we put it into a standardized format that is kind of besting for us and we'll increase their chances of getting through. And then we're just, in most cases, making them shorter, the biggest problem is like a lot of people have loads of information on the resume that's not going to get through. So a human or an, I get an ATS. So acidifying it, we're pulling out the most important information that's relevant to the job they're applying to and then we're packaging it all up into kind of the perfect resume for each job. And what about the find the right job side of things that could I come to you and say, "Hey, I'm looking for a career change. Like, help me find a job." Is that the level that you're going to or is it more like, "Oh, I'm a designer. I specialize in tech. Like, who should I apply to?" Yeah, so it's more about kind of the style of the search. So how it works is a job seeker will kind of update that resume onto our system. We then, like, have connections to all of the biggest job odds and like, lots of hidden job sites and career sites across the internet. So we'll pull out information based on your skills and background. We'll kind of identify jobs that are suitable for you. So it may just be design jobs. And then we'll kind of scour all of those job sites to pull in the best matches that are relevant to you and fit your salary requirements. So the, in terms of the actual searching, it's more about saving time going through different job sites and applying externally and is kind of pulling it all into one place. Well, then kind of rewrite the cover letter and the resume to make sure it's tailored to that job. And we'll try and find the email address at the HR manager. So our job seekers can kind of apply directly to the company rather than go being sent off to a list of different job boards and applying externally and very often ending up in the CV black hole and not knowing whether it's even been seen by a human or not. Yeah, that definitely is one of the most painful aspects of the job hunt. It's just the endless unknown waiting of like, did they, did they look at this? Do they care? So what were you doing before you started this? Like, how did that lead you to building this company? So this is my first company. My first one was a, an agreeable space. It was kind of an HR tech platform and it was a website that connected graduates to the job. So graduates kind of created profile, uploaded a video and then we would have employers that would sign up on the other side and we would match them in the middle. I started that company about eight years ago. We raised a bit of money and we grew that company for about six years and it was very difficult. It was very hard business because we had a marketplace so we needed to find our supply which was our job seekers and tomorrow which was the hiring managers and we needed to build both at the same time. So we had a constant battle to try and acquire both sides of the marketplace and it was just really difficult and I could do better space. I ended up exiting that company a couple of years ago to come and call it Bleak Refri day that are on a umbrella company and they had a few hundred thousand blue collar contractors and they were interested in providing this matchmaking service to their contractors. So transition under that business now works in kind of product strategy for those guys for a couple of years and we'll start it last year. I left that and had kind of freedom for the first time in eight years. So again myself a bit of free range just to just explore what was going on in the world. This was kind of challenging. The tea was blowing up. There were lots of opportunities that didn't exist before. So just paid around with new technologies and decided to build a few things and solve some problems. Different sectors. But around this time that I decided to create a TikTok account to initially the idea was to kind of talk about like upcoming releases in AI to talk about new technology news with a view to build some distribution for myself so that I'd have a following and if I wanted to test a new business idea I could like release it to my following and see if it got traction and then could kind of double down if it did and if it didn't then move away. And I spent about three months kind of uploading 80 or so videos that I've spent a lot of time on about new AI news was going on in technology and generated a probably grand total of about 80 followers. It was quite the hardening. Yeah. But then I decided to upload this video of my girlfriend's goldfish and my girlfriend's goldfish had this problem. It had some good swim ladder disease and it was stuck on the bottom first angle. So I promised the story can't size up somehow. And I made this goldfish a little life jacket. So it tied it cork to the goldfish and helped this swim. And I uploaded this video like doing this on the TikTok and all of a sudden 13 million views and tens of thousands of followers that were as enthusiastic. And I thought it kind of ruined my old experiment around building distribution via my TikTok and I kind of complained about this to my Twitter followers and one guy said well look you want a distribution you know have it. Can you build something for this new audience? I feel like it's quite kind of. So I thought about okay is there something I can build for pet enthusiasts that uses generous AI and would help me kind of learn how to build stuff in this space. So decided to build what I call an AI vet and it was very simple. It was a website that users could sign up. They could input the issues that they're having or the symptoms of their fifths is experiencing the type of animal the age breed and we would send that prompt to an AI and then give the user a diagnosis of what could possibly be wrong with their animal. So build that. Build the domain pet vet AI and launch that to my TikTok audience. And within within a week we have 10,000 users. Really strong signs of product market fit and people actually loved it. It solved a real problem for them. And in retrospect it's because when a pet owner has an issue with their animal they have a very right pain threshold. So they care a lot about solving this problem and you know the first step is probably a google search but google searches aren't actually that good of doing you direct information. They're mostly kind of SEO to my articles from pet food companies and then the next step is to speak to a vet and I'll send you back a few hundred pounds just for a quick visit. So actually at all that kind of go to very simple diagnosis using AI and that was tailored to your animal. Solve to a peak problem for them. So it was growing really quickly. Found ways to monetize it through a product recommendations into it and also the ability to actually speak to a real vet. So you could upsell and speak to a real vet. So had a little bit of monetization, very fast growth, really exciting experiment and not a site. So okay I'll list this on acquired.com which is a platform where you can buy and sell small businesses. Did that ended up getting speaking to a guy called Marshall who owned a company called Homelife Media and Homelife Media own loads of websites that get millions of eyeballs from pet owners every month. iHeart.dogs.com iHeartCats.com and a few others and you agree to acquire it and we had an agreement so it was a bit of upside for me when they launched it. And so that period was three months from kind of initial idea to XN. The last company was six years from the start to finish and it kind of showed me the power of generous AI and using this new technology to solve real problems for consumers that have you know are in a high-paying situation. And also the kind of magic that it is to consumers. The people that were using it there, the pet owners, it was solving real problem for them. It felt like magic because this thing really understood a lot about their animal and it was kind of kind of straight to the point and it grew very quickly so that kind of was the starker of okay how can I use this new technology to solve problems that I had in my last business that we couldn't solve before. And you love out drop seekers then you love about how to acquire them and you love about the pains they have whilst they're looking for work. And I knew how this new technology could be used to solve some of those problems. So about seven months ago started working on these tools, very quickly found product market fit. And yet in seven months we grew from zero to you know 55,000 users, profitable from day one, boots shut out to happen to put it any and just have you know this really fast ground business that solves a very high aim for a lot of default initial space at time. So it's been a really interesting journey. Yeah it sounds it. You had such immediate success with this pet pet one. What was the reason you abandoned it so quickly and decided you should move on to the next thing? So it's a great question because I don't actually have a killer answer. There was a bit of regret as well. So I think because it was so easy to build and because I didn't really see it as a business, I think I missed the fact that it was you know solving a very real problem in a very big market. You know I didn't know anything about the pet space. I didn't know anything about the vet space either. I didn't feel like I had a competitive advantage and I didn't see how it could be like a really big yearly contact business. But I did see how it could you know yeah a lead magnet around value to an existing business like iheart docs on iheart cats. So yeah there were a few reasons and I also just wanted to see what the experience was like on lookwire.com and see whether you could access the liquidity of selling these small businesses because that would be quite an interesting way to you know to go after all in selling things. And also you know it was one of maybe six different businesses that was projects that I started in that period of time. So it was one that kind of grew really quickly but there were a lot of others that didn't and there were also a lot of ideas that I wanted to play around with. You were trying to build six at the same time or you picked one to run with and you like I'll try it for a bit and move on. There was quite a bit of overlap. So yeah it was very much just you know following inspiration using using TikTok as kind of initial distribution. I think that was one of the learnings was historically you wanted to test a valid data idea. You would have to build a landing page, drive some traffic to it, launch some product hands maybe buy some ads, compare those kind of conversion rates to see if this was something people really cared about. And if you did find that people cared about it you would kind of go deeper and build more features for them. But in this kind of new age I found out the MVP is just creating some content that talks about the benefits of this product that doesn't even necessarily need to exist yet. And you can kind of trust the algorithm to push it out if people find it interesting and restricted if they don't. So if it gets lots of views and you have some content that goes viral or even gets a lot of engagement that's kind of good enough validation to actually take the next step of building something and taking it further. So there was a lot of kind of micro experimentation with ideas and concepts just to get a sense of what was going to be easy to grow, what was going to be easy to sell. I kind of found that through business there's easy ways and there's hard ways. You don't need to work on a very difficult business to grow something quickly and make money. There are a lot of people that seem to have an easy ride. So the goal was to try and find a part of least resistance to find taking very scalable and profitable just to kind of invest all my time and effort into that rather than the same time and effort into something that was going to be a lot harder. Do you think your first business was the hard way? It was absolutely the hard way. Yes, it was very difficult. It's almost kind of a meme for a lot of entrepreneurs that kind of finish for education and installed of work. See, this thing is incredibly painful and trying to solve it. And that's what we kind of did. We were like, okay, getting a job is really difficult. I don't know what I want to do. These job boards are just kind of new state which classified that. But online, why don't we try and build a better solution. And there's a massive gradient of companies that tried and failed to build a sustainable business in our space. Yeah, we became one of them. You don't have to share numbers if you don't want to, but you exited one business after six years, you exited another after three months, was there a significant difference in the financial reward you got out of those? So the financial reward was kind of limited on both. The first one, we, the business also had an integrated shape on me exited. We were head craniards in the pandemic, people stopped hiring. We have to pivot the business to be this kind of market base that was down to matching. There was a bit of cash, but the upside was really inequity, which is in private company, which is still kind of unvalued. So we call it a soft landing in my world. The second one was a lot more exciting, but again, the upside was mostly in kind of this equity agreement ongoing because it was, you know, something very easy to build and very quick to launch. So yeah, they were still considered small deals and still working on the big one. Do you think this third one will be it? I'm pretty confident. You, sounds like you, you didn't have a traditional job at all after university, is that right? Yeah, so I studied as kind of an ad creative, entered that world for a short period of time and kind of felt that it wasn't for me. Didn't feel that it was very impactful, especially for a junior creative. It's very difficult. And yeah, I, you know, would spend six months working all of my creative energy on, you know, campaign for converse to launch a new product line of boots. And I just felt that that wasn't as I know I even felt that wasn't like the best use of my time as maybe like I have an entitled millennial. But I wanted to do something that was still creative, but would be more as like at least like to see it's more impactful. I'm very early on in kind of the first business of helping people find work in a period where they, you know, are lost and don't know what they wanted to. I found that very meaningful. And, you know, just a few good stories about people discovering the things they care about was enough to kind of push that forward and make it worthwhile. Do you remember how you felt equipped with the skills to go and help people in their job search as someone who was probably hadn't done very much job searching yourself at that point? Yeah. I didn't have the skills. Just kind of a naive sense of, you know, we can do this. And again, we started off with, you know, the most basic and deep possible. We had this idea of, you know, creating video profiles of candidates and this kind of tinder for jobs before the whole concept even existed. And the first stage was, we literally went to, from our friends that were job seeking, we created these digital profiles for them. We recorded a video on our phone and then we went in person to companies that they wanted to apply to and we showed them these profiles. And we actually, you know, we've got, we've got a friend of chalk, we've got Hader Recruiting fee off the back of this process. They're like, okay, we're on something here. And then we kind of took that validation to some major investors and said, like, we know this can make money as a manual thing. We think we can automate it and want to build a tool to do so. So even that was a very iterative resource to get from zero to one. So I do think like the hard world as a creative is how to quit me with some of my really interesting things. And I think most of them were just around, like, you know, the fact that no, no idea is stupid or crazy. And the ability to kind of talk about ideas and theories about how things can work very easily and openly. And so I thought that was really valuable. But the kind of idea around just starting small and going for that, I think it's just because we didn't have a choice. You know, we didn't have any resources. We didn't have any money. We didn't have any experience. You know, we couldn't go to investors credibly and say, we're going to do this thing. It's going to work. We needed to show them the things that, you know, gave fruit voice, the fact that we can figure things out and build from zero. Was there anything in your upbringing that nurtured you as an entrepreneur? Do you think like your parents, your grandparents, your family, your parents? Yeah, so my, like I was always a very old worker and was never afraid to kind of to graft and do whatever it takes, you know, when we were very likely was selling plastic bins and the plastic Disney bins in the local market when, you know, the property was actually hit when we were just kids. And then he works very hard and he showed us that how to, you know, go from relatively nothing to something important. And my mom as well, just kind of with a communist background kind of showed that anything is possible and the power of hard work. And I'm sure there's other things that I'm not aware of that kind of informed that. Yeah, interesting. You've launched your pet business off the back of a very successful TikTok. And you know, you say that that taught you the value or you were trying to test out this theory that if you build a following, you could build a business from it. But it sounds like when you then switch back to AI apply, you didn't have a following at that point. Is that right? So then how did you take a strategy for where to go from that point? So the first version of AI by the very first version, I did a similar thing. I just, I created a video demo of a product that I wish he did. And it didn't. So it just was a series of kind of Figma designs of a tool that was a browser extension that were automatically computer applications for you. A sending a background and recording those Figma designs, found it in a prototype. I used it on my Twitter account and it got a load of wreath wreaths, load of people interested. And I said, we're launching this soon. Would you like any access? And I could tell that here was something that people cared about that it was something they wanted to use. You know, they care not to try it. So that kind of was enough early validation to say, this is something like building. And then so I have a co-founder business guy called Peter, that each and I built up that version. We launched it. It was a browser extension. And we really struggled to get much traction. We didn't really anticipate how difficult it is to try of users to a browser extension and to monetize them. So we kind of pivoted. We turned it into a work vacation. And we had a very simple version 1.0. And then we started pushing out more content. So we started pushing content on my tiktok account about how the product actually works. And also some features that we knew we could build and we wanted to build in future. One of those was a real-time interview support interview body. So the whole idea was that you would be able to upload your resume, the job arc, and this AI would give you feedback in real-time during an interview so that you could faulty questions more appropriately. And decided to film kind of a candid type video again of my girlfriend using this tool. And the first version was just I created the mock-ups in Figma, maybe even PowerPoint of something that would kind of read answers. I got it to put it against the camera screen. We pretended it was in a video. I pretended to kind of catch her from behind the door and record it. And again launched that on tiktok. And that got 10 million views. And it had the company branding on. It was directing all traffic back to our web page. We had a holding page for that to seek their feature. But all of the traffic that was visiting our homepage was still converting to paying users for our core product, which was their application kits and the resume. So while like Tetvete was kind of like reverse engineering off the back of the traction and trying to get those people to then visit the tool. This version was all about kind of driving traffic directly from this content to our website to kind of use this tool. So the conversions were a lot higher. And we had, you know, they changed the kind of the course of the business overnight. Just again off the back of this content. And it obviously helped inform my what's next and I've caught up through the map because this is something that people really cared about. You mentioned earlier with both these AI businesses you found product market fit really fast. What are you using to measure that? How do you know it's product market fit? Because that's I think something a lot of founders struggle with is whether they've hit it. Like how do they know when they've hit it? So I've always thought this was an impossible question. Until someone said that like the whole concept of product market fit is just a scam. And it's another word for profitability. And ever since I heard that, it kind of made perfect sense to me, because if you have a color that is, you know, profitable from your return on that spend for your like acquisition cost of lifetime value to all of your growth channels. If they're returning more value than you're putting into them, then you buy default product market fit because you can grow as quickly as you know, as you can spend and you have more people coming to you than you can deal with. And all of those things that people rely on is kind of heristics of product market fit come true because you're just you're growing very quickly. So that's kind of the biggest sign to need that you have it. I think everything else is kind of just wishful thinking. So I think if you have all this massive growth, but you're actually not converting users and staying users, you're not profitable, you're losing money, then I don't know if you can truly say that you have a product market fit. So that's kind of the core in my mind. And then there's loads of other things that kind of feed into that. You know, we, I've always used net remote to score as I could re-help an indicator, you know, how how like to get people to refer your product to friends, while they actually are referring people is your organic growth looking good. But it is funny. I do think it's one of those things that you only, when you have it, you know, because you just can't keep up with live what to do. And actually, another interesting thing. So in my last business, we needed feedback to inform kind of what features to build. And we were desperate to speak to our users. And, you know, and we did things I weren't on her. We used to offer people an arms of voucher to jump on a call with us to help us like inform our product strategy to essentially briming our users to tell us what to build. And with this or when you have something that feels like it has a product market fit, people are literally shouting at you all the time, telling you what to build. And you don't even need to do our toes where we're not even recording, you know, the feedback that we're getting into support forms because we hear it so often. We intuitively notice that, okay, that's next because if we don't build it, like all I use to get a chance and take a shot of us even more. So I think they're all ties in, you know, if your growth channels are working, if you can reinvest the profitable growth channels, if you have a lot of users that are telling you what they want and you know what to like and what's not working, everything else just gets super charged. How are these users telling you all of this through your TikTok? Is there some other channel that you use for feedback? It's mostly via email. We yeah, we had, we had logged out, but it just got too crazy. So it's all just kind of to our support email at the moment. You obviously had to like make a bit of a hard pivot from your front section. Have there been any other like major course corrections you've had to make like through problems or things you've built that like haven't been received well? So kind of constantly. So for this particular tool, we've kind of gotten with that. That approach where we're constantly releasing new tools that we think you're going to help job seekers and come back to use the new system. So we have kind of like a headshot generator. We have different tools at the walk-in to the use support. We have interview by, and we have about 5 or 6, and along the way we've had to kill maybe 4 or 5 different tools. So we'll launch them, and they won't convert, so they won't get traction, or you know, they'll just be more issues than that were. So we've kind of gone with the spirit of launching lots of different things, seeing how they use them, killing things that are working and doubling that ones that are. And I think yeah, we probably do even more about just being more ruthless with what our core offering is and making sure it's better proof before kind of building out additional things. Yeah, what is your philosophy on deciding to kill it rather than saying, well, the more features we have, the better our product. And yeah, it's actually something I struggle with, because I find a very different like the kind of the sun cost associated with having the time and effort into something. But we are ultimately just metrics driven, right? So anything is an experiment, every kind of product without, we're kind of maybe testing it against an existing product, or something like could pull revenue from, whether it's that accounts positioning, it's against something that exists already, or whether it's completely new. So the decisions are quite easy. And we use some tools to that work out whether something has statistical significance, or whether it's just that voices coming into play. So yeah, it's, I find it difficult, but it helps when there's actual data that says, you know, that great idea that I had. Has to do you thought, Saskelet and focus on what we're good at? How often do you think you have great ideas that plot versus great ideas that don't plot, or maybe bad ideas that anything incredible? 95, so 95% of the idea like integrate plot, I think 5% probably come through and work out really well. Are you able to refine that over time? Like, do you think you're getting better at figuring out what will work? Or is it such a difficult process? It's very difficult process. I think like maybe getting better at figuring out when stuff isn't working, rather than just, you know, I, historically, I've kind of been very good at thinking that success is just one feature away, or just around the corner. So I think kind of over time probably you develop like a sense of when something is just not, not right. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't think it's, you know, getting the right impact from users. And actually, you may be able to optimize it and get 20%, 50% better, but that same amount of time and resource could be spent making something else, you know, tenet better. So I think that's probably the learning over time. You mentioned before that a lot of your roadmap is based on what you're hearing from customers. Do those ideas still end up being things that flop? And basically, you just, the customers don't know what they want, or something else. So very rarely. So the things that kind of we keep hearing from our users, is where we actually put time into building those. They're the ones that you, we have high components on and generally, you know, we'll receive free users. So yeah, I think actually, they probably have a much better success rate than the ideas we could cook up in time internally. Yeah, we probably do that like equal weighting incorrectly. And it's probably something we can learn from. Just think. You mentioned a moment ago, thinking you're only one feature away from success. So what is success in your mind at the moment? What does that look like? So it's just, it's a good question. It's all about growth at the moment. So we've grown from zero to 25k a month to revenue in the last six months. And that has been done kind of, as I said, possibly with our spending, kind of any of our own money. So just for my users. So we have kind of ambitious growth targets. We want to go from 25 to 250k months in the next 18 months. So everything is around kind of just keeping up our growth rate, you mean, consistent, all the experiments are around growth. And yeah, just seeing if we can get those footage as we hope. How do you come up with that metric of 250, you know, 10x in your monthly growth in 18 months? So it's mostly because we know it can be done because we have advisors or I have an advisor that has done exactly the same thing for some of business in the sector in a similar area of time. And that's the kind of thing that gives real confidence that that level of growth and to that to that stage is also all with this type of a business. Because otherwise, you know, I've had kind of wild and ambitious growth targets of businesses before and they often, you know, they just, they don't get hit and everyone's depressed and it's always something else as far as an external factor. But with this, I'm very confident that we can achieve it. And yeah, it's based on actually having seen it done before. And kind of understanding what the playbook is together. What does that playbook look like for you? So product is pretty solid. In fact, it does what it says on the tin. We have very good conversion rates of like users coming in the top of the funnel to actually converting and paying us to convert around 2% of age users and paying users. And we're currently kind of running like four different channels. It's like data section social and SEO is going to be big opportunity, but it's kind of building up. And influencers kind of huge for us. And influencers broken down between kind of paying influences based content that are in channels, which gives us kind of a quick uplift. And having influencers on retainer create content for us over time. So it would be multiple influencers on retainer, create content that we're kind of giving them to them. So there are the kind of three slash four channels. And they in cells, kind of the right investment and right execution will get us there. Just doing what we're doing. On top of that, kind of the next thing was a growth R. Okay, we have a seed business consumer proposition. So we start to consumers. There's a lot of tools we can sell into businesses. So kind of analyzing job seekers, analyzing resumes, standardizing them. So when we want to pull more levers for growth, we can start launching those tools and it's a very different type of sales process, but we can start scaling up quite efficiently assuming, you know, conversions and stuff like this. And yeah, and there's a lot of other things we can do as well around partnership and probably growth. Yeah. Content has come up a lot in this conversation. It started with you having a terrible time until your fish. And it sounds like now you mostly work with influencers. Are you still doing your own content as well? And and how do you decide what content looks like for your business? You know, if I'm going to go and start producing content for my new business, what is your process for thinking about what am I going to put out into the world? Yeah, so I'm not actually doing very much of my work just because it's a very, it takes a lot of time both creatively and like to go in the execution, so to be done right. And I've been distracted. I'm not been able to do it. And actually, if I want to scale it up, as just like a channel, like a reliable growth channel for my business, then I need to find ways to do it that I don't come to the bottleneck because I'm very able to do come to bottleneck. So yeah, what is the process? I think it starts off by just understanding, you know, what is the, who is our persona? You know, what do they do? What do they care about? What are their aims? What are the issues? Very easy for job seekers because, you know, we understand what they look like quite a lot. There's already a lot of content out there for them. There's, you know, something called career talk, which is a hashtag for job seekers. And actually, it's just a process of looking at, looking at what kind of content resonates. What content has a lot of views? What's on viral? What can that and everybody tells you, you know, what people care about? I think TikTok is particularly good for this because you can look at career talk and look at the, you know, 10 most viral big years from that hashtag. And it will show you the 10 that most important topics that people care about that are looking for a job. Much more so than, you know, their career hashtag on Instagram because the biggest views will probably be from accounts that have the biggest followers, whereas TikTok prioritizes content and Instagram prioritizes follow account. So you can very quickly build, like, you know, a content library on, like, pain points, solutions, and things to address for particular demographic. There's also something called TikTok Creative Suite, something like that. But I'll dig out that kind of lets you search for trending topics and understand what people are searching for and care about again. So there's that. And then you can look at competitors. You know, what kind of content is going well for them? What, what do they use as care about? Because there's definitely going to be a bit of crossover with that. If you say you've picked the top 10 topics, you know, and you create a bunch of videos, is the sense that if you produce a similar piece of content, it will do similarly as well, or do you have to find a new unique angle on it that's, like, really tailored to your brand for it to stand out as well as that original top, you know, one or 10 piece. Well, when we put out the content of the interview body, the video uploaded that I had, you know, 10 million views within a week or so, there was some exact copies from competitors. The song without even a similar isn't it? Sort of definitely not the same proposition. But they just put it out because they knew that we could get views and it would drive traffic to their accounts and then their home ages. And they were getting equally millions of views. So there is kind of a strange arc game going on on these channels where because the audience is just so massive, you can produce very similar content and get similar results and still not crossover that it's seen in the first time around. Now, the caveat is things change from what I've seen, things change very, very quickly in this world. The algorithm gets updated, the competitors just landscape changes. So it's very hard to kind of keep up with. So our strategy at the moment is, if we're going to be hiring a lot of influencers on retainer, they'll be posting content on accounts that are owned by us, but not our core account. So we'll be trying lots of different strategies across lots of different individual tech type accounts, but they'll all be AI apply related. So the AI apply code, apply the AI code, etc. So we have, we can run lots of different experiments from the core brand, and we can kind of double down lots of working. We can use that created across the different accounts, and we can try and grow from there. How does that work long term? Is the plan that once you figure out what's working, you slowly shut down these off-shoot accounts and merge into one or like, does they'll just live on forever, and it doesn't really matter, because no one's checking, like which the real, like, real you is or anything. No, I expect us to keep doubling down and have hundreds of accounts. I think that's what the kind of the mid-term strategy looks like, just at a moment there's no reason not to keep scaling it up in that fashion. And so one thing that, you know, TikTok likes is, reliable content styles. So kind of, if an audience on an account likes a particular content style, then it will kind of benefit from having that audience. But if yours try lots of different content styles, then it doesn't make sense to do it in one account. So you can have one account dedicated to street interviews, one account dedicated to, you know, straight to camera interview advice, one account dedicated to your how to tailor your resume. So you can have all of these strategies running in parallel, and you're going to, you know, much better return than if you're running it all from the same account. Gotcha, super interesting. You've obviously handed off this content creation piece, you know, and that one of the important things is you grow as a company is delegating the bits that you aren't as expert at. But what roles are you still playing in this company and what about your founder, like how did you choose who the right person was to support your skill set? So we are, we're a team of two at the moment. So we're kind of doing everything. It's a good question, because we really are doing everything. I guess like a final level, I'm in charge of growth and making sure people can't talk of something. He's in charge of making sure the product delivers the value that's being offered. So it's a pretty good partnership in that sense that life is just growth and product delivery. My co-family is also like exceptionally fancy. Like the best engineer I probably worked with, and I think it's because he comes from kind of an indie hacking background. And for this set of life, indie hacking is like individual independent makers and developers that just built products, normally by themselves that focus on getting revenue from customers and solving problems. And yeah, like there's a lot of indie makers and indie hackers that are paying themselves decent salaries from the SaaS tools that they've not developed. And I think developers that come from their background have like a really good sense on how to build software that people actually care about, because they've wasted their own time if they build software that people aren't going to pay for. So yeah, he's got a great design sense which I think is quite unique and he's great at executing a building. And it kind of frees me up to just focus on kind of sort of funnel growth and kind of along with some strategy. Is that the role you took at in your first business? Some of you shifted. I was a lot more product focused. So I was, yeah, I was like, yes, pseudo product manager and CEO. And I spent a lot of my time kind of very deep into product and design and UI kind of really understanding like the UX of the process. And I enjoyed it and I do love for it and I think it helps with this business as well. But again, I don't con what's on it because we both have like a very good sense of what should be built and how to build it. So we can move a lot quicker. But that said, we do also kind of rely on work with agencies for statistical tasks, kind of SKO for research and social. And you know, that's a message on look as well. They're funny in the right, all of this stuff. Because it can make, it means we can move a lot quicker. What made you decide to bring on a partner founder for this one? It sounds like you built the pet one yourself and launched that on your own. Yeah, so this is, it just requires a lot more technical expertise, a lot more than kind of fine-cateing love. You know, it's, it's not just a wrapper you're using kind of open AR8, which the first one was. It was just kind of simple, the e-book boxes. This is kind of a lot more complex than I, I just don't have the ability. And we first started working with Helica is that he's had already built a similar browser extension tool. So he built kind of a GPT browser extension. We're actually connected on Twitter, just discussing it and decided to kind of try and tell it into this job seeker tool and we kind of developed our relationship from there. Were you strangers until you found them on Twitter? Yeah, pretty much. How did you do if any due diligence on whether you would work well together and should build a company? Because that's quite a big investment. Yeah, it's a different question. Because the answer is we didn't. So in, in the preceding year when I was kind of working with a work, I'm a few different ventures I had. Do you work to get started with different engineers, different products, different co-founders, working on different things. So I had quite a good sense on, you know, what type of people are good to work with. And, you know, we had hit, or Peter and I, you know, 10 K&M were all before we even had like an email address set out, let alone like a share of as agreement or a founders agreement. We just started working very, very quickly and built trust by just, you know, doing what we'd say. There was a sense that there was kind of this shared leverage that we had and that meant we didn't need to have kind of agreements in place early on. For example, you know, we used my strike account, but it will be the other account. So we both kind of could take an ad as much as we had as each other to the business. And ultimately, if one of us decided to leave in the first, you know, even now, then the business doesn't really make sense anyway, because we've had so much value to it. So we were able to move forward very quickly based on trust. And, you know, just a shared kind of alignment and all we wanted to do with this business. And we've also been just generally enjoying it. It's been, it's really fun. Yeah. Are you located in a similar area? Are you building this business remotely? This is clear remote. I'm in London. He's in Brighton. So it works. Have you had to make any sacrifices to pursue entrepreneurship in this particular business? Yes, I'm sure. I see kind of all of my friends kind of, I mean, the ladder sustainably. And, you know, going through a part of life that is sometimes the very appealing. We weren't paying ourselves for the first six months of this business. So we were kind of all in, and yeah, and it's just, it's just two of us. It can be quite lonely at times. You know, just try to find something that works. You're kind of default in a world of uncertainty. You know, it's kind of what I count. But we found ways to take a look into it or I know we focused on the cost of the first token, something as profitable, based on something that can grow very quickly. And all of these things make it very exciting to work on, and it's exciting to work on, and nothing else really matters. Is that the main driver that keeps you in it when there you are, you know, seeing everyone else grow their careers, their bank balances, et cetera, or are there other parts about entrepreneurship that you love as well? I think it's kind of, as far as things that you can't really go back from, now, obviously, you've kind of seen behind the cards and kind of what's possible. I think, especially when you see successful entrepreneurs that have kind of achieved amazing things, and how it's like a huge amount of impact. And if you have that kind of, I can do that. Jean, but I think a lot of entrepreneurs have. Then it's very hard to kind of signal. And it's yeah, it's just, it can be fun. And it's incredibly rewarding. And the upside can make the world far as well. Cam, but there's also, we only see the best bits of entrepreneurship, typically, right? We hear the success stories, but there's a lot of other people who didn't gain that status. Yes, yeah, that is true. And I think like, on balance, it's not a very smart thing to do. You know, the odds are stacked massively against you. There's a massive graveyard of companies, and yeah, you don't hear about the ones that it didn't work out. And even the ones that seem to have worked out, you know, companies that have raised hundreds of millions that end up x-ting for hundreds of millions. And the founders end up with nothing because of how the cap tables stacked. So there's a lot of ways it can go wrong. But it is just, you know, the freedom of being able to build what you want to make these decisions to potentially have control of future freedom. And the upside that potentially could be there is quite fun. How do you plan for the future of your business? Like, how far ahead do you look? And what does that process look like? So I think I like to look like very far ahead with like 10 years, you know, what does the world look like? Actually, spend some time periodically just trying to imagine what the world looks like in that kind of a time frame. And then kind of come back to just what is the best decision now. The truth is, you know, the market's changing so quickly for this type of stuff. We really don't know what it's going to look like in the next six months. So once you've kind of spent a bit of time living in the future, it's then just about okay, how, how, what are the levers we can pull today to to grow as quickly as we can to our value time users to, you know, build something that is a positive to the world. And, you know, does it eventually fall into that vision we have in the future? Yeah, you can tick all of those things and I think you're in a good position. But, um, yeah, it's probably quite a unique, a unique strategy at the moment because we just don't know what things you're going to look like in the near time and things are just moving so quickly in the world of AI. But what is a piece of advice you'd give to someone who's thinking about starting their own business, but doesn't really know how to take the first step? So, I would focus on, so I think the learning of like second time founder and again, it's like it's a very well-stated thing. It's just distribution is distribution comes first. You know, it's not about like what the product does, it's about how your product kind of gets in front of users. So I'd really focus on just trying to nail that first. One of the benefits of this kind of content first approach is that you're validating like your customer discovery and distribution channel whilst you're validating like your collective idea. So I would just start, what is like, can you create a vision for, you know, a demo of what your product can possibly do? Can you create that on, you know, Figma or own PowerPoint or in any way possible, just demonstrating like the idea that you're trying to build and then can you distribute that somehow through any channels that you have access to? And then once you've done that, like do people care? I think the worst thing you can do is ask people whether they think an idea is good or bad, it's 10 times better to just show them what you're thinking and see how people react and see, you know, are they engaging in the way that you think? But also, yeah, you kind of need experience of like what's good and bad. So if it's kind of the first idea and the first thing you put out, you won't really know if the reaction you're getting is good or bad. But if you kind of try a few different ideas or propositions and one gets, you know, 10 times the minor engagement as another, maybe that actually gives you some information. So yeah, you can't make decisions based on the dots, but you can based on lines. So yeah, just push stuff out there. Perfect. We're about at time, so Aiden, where can people go to find out more about you and your company? Follow me on TikTok or Twitter, both at Aiden and Kramer. Not one of the hundreds of other TikTok accounts you have. No, just that one. Perfect. I will add that to the show notes. Aiden, thank you. I really appreciate you coming on the show. And everyone listening, thanks for tuning in. Cool. Thank you so much, Ian. It's been great to talk about this.