AI Parenting Advice: James Kelly on Whether AI Is Sinful in Nature and the Killer App Trap

- The Art of Leadership Network. - Do you allow your children on chatbots on AI or chat or clod? - Oh, no, I don't. (upbeat music) - Welcome to the Kerry New Half Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Welcome to all of you who are tuning in for the very first time. And those of you who've been around since episode one. Today's a really big day. My brand new book, AI in the Future Church releases. This has been a two year labor of love, a book I didn't intend to write, but I got so fascinated by not just the story of AI as it's developing, but the impact on humanity that I thought, I think we need to get this message out to the church. So that's what this is. It's not a tech book, it's a ministry book. So if you're a ministry leader, if you care about the church, if you care about the impact of AI, that's what AI in the Future Church is all about. It's available everywhere. Books are sold right now. So make sure you drop by your local bookstore. Of course, go to Amazon or Barnes & Noble or your favorite indie online retailer, and they will have it. And what it is about, we're exploring the topic of AI in this AI series, which we're in the middle of. But it's really about what you can do to minister to the human need around artificial intelligence. Explain what AI is, what it's doing, what the potential disruption is. I think we're gonna go through the biggest disruption of our lifetime in the next few years. And I think you are ready as a church leader for this moment. So excited to have this out in the wild, excited to have this out in the world. And we are bringing you a number of different conversations in this AI in the Future Church series. And today I've got James Kelly. James Kelly is the founder and CEO of Faith Tech, Global Tech Community, they operate in more than 55 cities, including Silicon Valley, London, Tokyo, New York, Tel Aviv, and more. He's been featured in the New York Times, wired the Times of London Christianity today. And also he equips practitioners across companies like Google, Metta, and some of the AI Frontier Labs. So let's get into my conversation with James Kelly on this the launch day for AI in the Future Church. James, glad to be having this conversation. Welcome. - Oh, Kerry, thank you. And yeah, I just want to appreciate you to start this off. Thank you for your faithfulness. We just mentioned before we recorded, I remember your first podcast coming out with Andy Stanley. And how many episodes are you in now? - Oh, we're like, this is eight, 30 and 30. - Right, right, isn't that nuts? - So to keep going, to being faithful to the Lord, to bring the global church in our leaders, how do we think? Bipically, how do we think in the terms of leadership from the gospel and all the best practices? I'd appreciate you. I appreciate your faithfulness to continuing on for all of us. So, thanks, Kerry. - Well, what goes around, comes around, or maybe I should say, as we started, so we continue, I'm working on Andy's interview questions for an upcoming episode today before we hit record. So, he's been a great friend to me into this podcast. So, James, welcome. Man, I've been thinking so much about technology, so much about artificial intelligence, and wanted to have you on this AI series. So, you are in a different position than a lot of people listen to this podcast because you're in the room with people who are building and developing AI. You started mostly in the software space, and then as things have evolved, I mean, almost every software company is now an AI company, or it's a major part of their platform. What are you learning in these rooms that would surprise a pastor or church leader? - Well, I think the first thing is deeply encouraging to the church, which is there are faithful followers of Jesus working at these companies. And so, like if you imagine, Google, Google has Google Christian fellowship with thousands of people. I think they do. I think it's around 70 small groups every week that are praying together, going through Bible studies all over the world, Amazon, Microsoft, and Vidya. A lot of these companies have followers of Jesus that are asking, "God has called me to this place, to build here." How do I build differently? But how do I then find other followers of Jesus and build with them? And so, I think the first thing is you get behind the, for me, it's almost always a follower of Jesus that I'm trying to disciple on their journey of faith working in these companies, and they have insider stuff that's unbelievable. But I think the first thing is encouragement that there are people there, and we should be praying for them. If any pastor or leader is listening, you're like, "Man, I see tech, it's got this enormous disproportionate influence on the world." What do I do? Obviously, there's a local mandate of your people, which we can talk about, but there's also this global piece that just praying for the leaders in these companies is important. I think the other thing, though, is I'm actually quite encouraged and a bit concerned when I get into these conversations around the future of artificial intelligence and superintelligence in these frontier models, is most of the leaders in this space understand that we're going to hit some sort of superintelligence. We're going, so there's this inevitability, you know, posture, but almost all of them will then say, "If that happens or when it happens, the scarce resource is emotions, is vision, is creativity, is the people's side of the world." And so on one hand, they think we can engineer our way towards some self-picture of salvation of the future. They still have intelligence as the primary of importance. But these leaders understand that the unique scarce resource of the future is what I think the church does best. Like, we have the greatest vision. We deeply love people. We are preached to our communities. We should be excellent at compassion and empathy and coming alongside our people. And so, you know, on one hand, the pursuit of intelligence is relentless right now, but there's a clear understanding that the unique value proposition of the future of the world in an AI age is the things that I think God calls us to do very uniquely. See, that's really fascinating. And on the one hand, I agree. That's sort of my thesis, right? The church's future direction is human connection. And I really believe that we can bring something to the table that AI needs and an AI-dominated world needs. But you just dropped something really casually there about superintelligence. So we're sorry. - Great point. - We're sort of in three phases of AI. And I know you've had a chance to read the book, AI in the future church. But right now, we're sort of in the LLM era still, you could argue, and that's just artificial intelligence, narrow artificial intelligence, which is seeding probably as we speak. I don't know what your take is on that to artificial general intelligence, where we will be smarter than any AI, we'll be smarter than any single mathematician, scientist, specialist that the world produces. But then we get to superintelligence, which the estimates on the far far far far side are 2040. Some say, "Ah, it could happen this decade." Where we get to superintelligence. What is superintelligence? And what should we be expecting? - Well, I think, I don't even think no one, no one really knows what it is. I think honestly, that's the thing. And there's these conversations I get with behind the scenes people on red at the edge of ethics and frontier technology. And they will say to me, "Gary, they're like nobody knows where this is going." Now, I think we have control to shape all of that. I think there's this sense right now where we think general intelligence, superintelligence, all these things. It's getting out of control. It's crazy. Now, the reality is, is behind the scenes, these software developers, technologists, do have control to shape what their systems do. You can fine tune everything. And then it gives you different answers. It produces different things. And so, I think there is actually an enormous amount of control tech has to shape the future. But the concern they all have is, well, I don't know when this is going to happen and what it's going to look like. And so, I think there is this concern I have that nobody is willing to surrender control or power. So, it's all out full tilt. Let's just go after whatever superintelligence is, which is AI having far more control and power and ability to do things than we can imagine. And so, I think we need you. We need to call our leaders right now to, a different pathway that does bring some constraints, some limits. Well, we're recording this about a month before it releases. So mid-August, mid-to-late August, 2026, and Sam Altman, I was just reading today, announced that he's halting the release of some new models because he's really concerned about what they're doing and they don't fully understand what's happening. So that obviously could get updated by the time people listen to this. But the reality from what I've understood, and I agree with you, like trying to define superintelligence for the purposes of a book was really difficult because you read 10 different definitions and you're trying to synthesize them. And at the end of the day is we're building something we don't fully understand and something that we don't fully will not be fully able to control. In fact, by the time we hit super intelligence or ASI, you know, beyond AI and AGI, we'll probably end up, and tell me if it's from wrong, the way I'm trying to understand this as a non-coder, a non-tech-trained person is it's almost like we've been in created an alien species and it's talking and we can't understand what it's saying and we don't fully comprehend what it's doing, but it's more powerful than us. And ultimately, we are no longer the dominant species on the planet. That's sort of the lay person take away I'm pulling, can you dissect that? Like what's accurate about that? What's inaccurate about that? And then what does that mean? That's the big question, James. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, you've got the doomers and the boomers. The boomers are, this is a huge boom. Let's invest all the money, which is unbelievable. And the doomers are saying, I think it's very spiritual too as a small tangent, you know, on one hand, you have AI is going to usher in the return of Christ, you know, type of feeling. And on the other hand, you have AI is the Trojan horse of the church and it's going to destroy humanity. And so I think firstly, it's a very deeply spiritual question that we are wrestling through right now with as a society. I think on the doomers side of it, you know, I, I'm not convinced that we will hit super intelligence. Okay. Yeah. That is not like it. Yeah. I do think it's a very plausible argument because I think historic if you look back, if you even go back to the atomic bomb and Oppenheimer and that whole story and that's more fresh on everybody's mind, you know, we did put in constraints and limits. And so it is possible that we as a society can do this. Obviously, I think the counter argument to that point is, well, is it, is this going to even be possible because anybody can now work with this? You know, it's so different with the atomic bomb now. It's just so limited in terms of resource, but this is one of those things we can all be building. And so I do think that's the counter argument to the super intelligence, but I do believe that as a society, as we start seeing more of its arms, I think if you hit a mass global cyber attack that destroys the stock market, for example, I think it'll probably take if I'm looking ahead, it's probably going to take a moment like that for the world to realize, maybe we do need some limits. And you know, even hearing Altma put in some limits and Claude, they've been putting in limits as well, I do think you might not see that right that they can strain it. And yet, AI is already recursive in the sense that it's coding itself. And it's doing things the difference I understand between AI and say software coding historically is if you're coding software, everything is known. Like if you can't log in, it's a known bug and you just have to go back, fix the code, and then you'll be able to log in again. Or this feature isn't working. You should be able to debug it like everything is sequential. And if it's not working, it's because oh, there's an error in the code. And the thing about AI, that's the way AI was at the beginning. You just reprogram, reprogram, reprogram until it does what you want it to do. But now it's become what AI experts call recursive in the sense that it is teaching itself. And so the software engineers, I think Claude famously has said, we really haven't written code all year because Claude is coding itself. And so we get to the point of not being able to understand what we create, almost, you know, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, what have I done here? And I think it's alarming a lot of the, and I think this is what a lot of people don't understand about AI. It's more than just, oh, which prompt are you using? Or do you like ChatGPT better than Claude? So any other thoughts on why this intelligence is different than anything we've ever seen today? Or maybe it's not? Well, I would say the argument is, it is a yes and no. What I think is that where it's not different than anything else we've seen is that as followers of Jesus, our response should be, and I know this isn't so simplistic because you kind of want like, everything's different so our answers are different. But our response should be largely the same in that we point people to God, point him to his word, our character, integrity, those things become the areas to which we double down and make sure that we're like Jesus in his image, focus there. So on one hand, you know, I don't think the alarmist in us should say, okay, suddenly we now have to do everything absolutely different. I don't think that's the right pathway. And I don't think pastors need to all now suddenly become experts in AI. They need to become experts in their people and how to serve their people and experts in the word of God and point people to Jesus on the other side of that, the recursive element of this. I had the opportunity Thomas Fister. He leads research, AI research at Google Cloud. I interviewed him recently and he said the pursuit, so his job carry so fascinating. He is paid by Google and his team that he runs to essentially come up with one breakthrough a year. Like give us a huge breakthrough, one to two a year, and you guys have done it. This is it. And so the shift his team made recently though in the last six months is rather than us coming up with the breakthrough. How are we building our AI to come up with the breakthroughs itself? And I think that's the difference on this is that we as a society and history have always said we as humans through adding, you know, innovation is always one plus something else makes the new innovation. We're always learning and building off of something else to come up with new innovation. Infrastructure of breakthrough technology isn't us as humans now. It's how do we get the systems to do that? The danger in that and why this feels different to me is that when AI starts coming up with breakthroughs, are they going to be actual breakthroughs for human society to move in the right direction or are we going to think this is so beautiful? This is so interesting. Let's move forward with that breakthrough, whatever AI comes up with, and it actually takes us down a worst trajectory. And so I think that's where it is a little different. But the ways we interact with it, the ways we respond to it actually think the countercultural pathway, which we can talk more about on this conversation is the way that the Lord lays out in his word, a countercultural pathway, which I think is going to be a very attractive to our society in the near future. This episode is brought to you by AI and the future church. Hey, today, as you know, is a big day around here. It is launch day from my new book, AI and the future church. I think AI might be the greatest disruption the church has ever faced, but also our greatest opportunity. A world growing more artificial by the day is producing something no church growth strategy ever could. People who are growing desperately hungry for what's real. Your church has never been more needed, but the question is, are you ready? And that's why I wrote AI in the future church. In it, I walk you through three shifts you can start making now, make Sundays non-downloadable, build your shock absorbers now, and fortify your integrity. I won't equip you as a leader and your team for the cultural moment we're in and whatever comes next. Nobody's 100% sure. So we got to be ready. Plus, the book comes with a companion AI hub. With it, you'll get access to real time updates and tools for ethical, practical AI in ministry. It's built specifically to help you lead in this era. If you pre-ordered the book, thank you. If you haven't yet, today's the day. Get your copy now, wherever you buy your books, I can't wait to get it in your hands. This episode is brought to you by Convoy of Hope. With each breaking news stories of disaster. around the world. I know that help is on the way because of the tireless efforts of my friends at Convoy of Hope, and their incredible work isn't limited to just providing relief in the wake of those storm paths. Last year alone, they trained and equipped close to 50,000 farmers and empowered nearly 80,000 women. I've seen this up close on the field. It's incredible. 677,000 children woke up this morning knowing they would receive a nutritious meal, all because of our partnership with Convoy of Hope. Tony and I personally traveled to the field. We saw firsthand the amazing impact of our personal Convoy partnership and how they tangibly share God's love. So I think their work is impressive. I know the need is great. Sometimes the the news is just so overwhelming and your gift to Convoy of Hope will help make the difference. Join me and Tony, my wife, in supporting this great ministry. The website is convoyofhope.org/carry. Well, that's the opportunity I saw as I got deeper and deeper into the topic. It's like a wait a minute. We're actually prepared for this as Christians. God is still sovereign. Nothing surprises him. He knew about AI before you were born, before the creation was founded, you know, started like none of this, none of this works. God's sovereignty, even if a new species, so to speak, is is created. Nothing's beyond the realm of God. And the church's future direction is human connection. Like this is something we were trained for to connect people in a relationship with God, connect people with each other to be more human. I can't wait to get into that part of it. But I think what I'm really wrestling with James and you can help us with this is removing into a world that could potentially be fundamentally different than the one we grew up in. And a lot of our categories break. My grandfather was born in, what are my grandfather's born in 1898 and died in 1977. And my dad reflecting on his life said, you look at my dad, he grew up in the era of horse and buggy and died with supersonic jet travel. And after we put a man on the moon, like you think about all that change in 80 years, that was, that was a lot. And so I guess, you know, we're seeing even greater change in that, potentially in the next five to 10 years. When you think about life potentially, and again, nobody really knows where this is going. Nobody knows exactly what we're creating. Will we hit ASI or not? I don't know. You don't know. God knows. That's actually comforting. But what potentially could be the implications on the world to like every day life, the economy, wealth creation, jobs, mental health, like when you look into the future, where do you see some of the tentacles of AI going in terms of changing or disrupting everyday life? Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, this is where even your language, worst case, best case scenario kind of concepts come in. I do think that my concern right now on the trajectory we're currently on is the marginalized, are those on the sidelines getting pushed even further, you know, the wealth gap growing, you know, the rate now so much of this conversation is Western. And then suddenly you have the rest of the world kind of responding of what implications are this going to, going to have on me. And if that leads to like economic disparity, you know, again, opportunity for the church to be the church in such a powerful way. So I think that's one avenue that is the wealth gap widening some countries, some classes really profiting while other people get pushed to the side like the marginally employed or do you see it impacting white collar or are what you're viewing that? I do. I already have that. I mean, the number of softer developers that are in our community that are losing their jobs right now is actually growing. So give us a fairly large community. You're in how many countries? We're in 20 subting countries, 55 cities. Yeah, 55 cities in tech, tech, heavy cities, right? Yeah, tech hubs. Yeah, how is that happening? Because let's talk about that because I read the macro economic data. And I think there's been a net gain in software engineers, which is why the job apocalypse job apocalypse is being actively debated. And a lot of the AI frontier lab founders are like, no, it's not going to be a problem. And other people are going, it's going to be a problem. So you're seeing it. How are you seeing that? And why are they losing their jobs? Well, I think the interesting element of it actually has to do with purpose. So the softer developers, I know that got into it is they got into it because they like to build and innovate and create new things. They like to actually raw code and make this stuff. But you don't make it anymore. You're dealing with agents and you're dealing, you're actually prompting things. And so that I've had many conversations of like, I don't love this anymore. I don't like doing this anymore. And then that's changing cultures within the tech world. So I think big tech, they're investing enormous amount of money because they have it into AI systems that can then replace their people. My sense though is you may not be seeing it the numbers wise is because those that are losing those jobs or re-examining everything are becoming entrepreneurs and are starting to build new things and create new things because everyone's a builder now. You know, this is one of those wild moments for us as a fate tech community is we spent 10 years trying to help those that build technology. Do it in the way of Jesus. And now we get stay at home moms reaching out being like, yeah, I built this thing. And now suddenly all the other stay at home moms, I know are using this communication tool. But now it's being used improperly. And I think I should try to think about how I should do this differently. And so because everyone's becoming a builder, there's this influx of new that's getting created. Now the danger is as soon as we all think we can build technology that doesn't mean necessarily you're building something that can last and something that has stewarded it. And so, you know, I think that's probably why currently we're not seeing that job loss, which I would hope continues, Gary. So I'm not here as a I hope we see mass job loss or anything like that. We don't want to see anything like that. The trajectory we're on, I don't know exactly if that's exactly what we're going to see. But the potential job loss, but best case, worst case, what else do you think how will life be different? Yeah, I think one other element, I'm another concern I have is more at the belief set. And I'll tell about the implications of the second meta right now. What they're really the those that gentleman Alexander Wang overseas their super intelligence lab. He's been really focused lately on talking about how their vision at meta Facebook is to make everything easier. So that's the goal. How do we make your whole life easier? And then you get into an optimistic pathway there where all we'll all have leisurely more time. And life will be just grand and easy for everybody. Now, any time that is the path and the vision that we set aside and we build technology down that pathway, we usually don't end up doing that. We actually end up working more. And we create more and it feels like the AI trajectory we're on right now is like the promise is that we will everything will be easier. And then you realize in order to stay economically within the system, you have to work harder and work more. And then it's actually more difficult and more challenging. And so I think the promise of technology is that it's magical and it will make everything easier. But the purpose God lays out for us is that there is suffering and there is challenge and there is difficulty. And it's that's when we meet Christ the most in those that challenge and that difficulty. And so I hope we don't actually end up with a whole future that is just leisurely and easy. I don't think that's what we'll get, but I don't think that promise is accurate. Let's talk about the builder phase a little bit because I think everybody's heard this. And this is the part that I'm trying to get my head around. Like if you have a church of say a hundred people, for sure, if you have a church of a thousand people or more, but even in a church of a hundred people, chances are there's some teenager 20 something stay at home mom who's endabbling with quad co work or quad code or with codex on open AI who's created something of some value. Do you want to explain exactly how that happens for the listeners who maybe haven't seen it or they haven't, you know, kicked the tires enough to discover, oh, this is happening in like my little rural community or my city or my suburb or or that kind of thing. What should to that. - You show and build something? - Yeah, like give us an example of what a stay at home mom, great example, might have either accidentally or intentionally created something of value using AI. - Yeah, I mean, I think it's at this point now where you can go on and get these tools, literally just Google search. How do I make a technology with LLMs and with AI? It's quite that simple. But it's usually right now, just simply around a problem people are experiencing. So the stay at home mom is a really good example. A real example of, hey, our community is struggling to find the resources that we specifically want. We have a very niche view on how we want to train and educate our children and that's beautiful. Where do we find those resources? You can actually build a tool that finds them all around the world, curates them, gives commentary on them and then feeds that all in on a daily or weekly basis to your community as a way that just communicates them all that's come in and been made around the world. And suddenly it's in a way that's interactive and in a way that works for your specific community. So the path of the builder is that people will be building more and more niche things with a community and the people that they're a part of. And so the homeschooling mom builds her own curriculum. That's a great example. All the other moms want now too, because it's this particular theology, this particular world view and it just pulls it all together. Whereas before you could have spent your whole life at a library or Google searching or watching random YouTube videos and struck out more often than you succeeded. Yeah, interesting. Social media created a lot of unintended consequences. Like back when social media came out, I kind of thought it was neutral. Just like, you know, the printing press was neutral. You can print a Bible, you can print hate literature. It's like the presses, it isn't the printing press's fault. It really is a reflection of human nature. But I don't think anybody looks back on the last 25 years and says, you know what? Social media was a net positive. We're all better connected. We love each other more. We're now more connected to the people we went to school with. And the algorithm, which has been fueled by AI for years over a decade, I think, has just created more polarization, more division, more partisanship, more hate, et cetera, et cetera, and more disinformation, you know, bot farms just trying to interfere in elections, et cetera. So those are, I don't think anybody really saw that happening in 2007. I mean, you've been around this space for a while. I think we all got surprised and it was about 10 years ago that we went, huh, maybe this isn't all good. Yeah. So let's not get fooled twice. When you think about the unintended consequences, potentially, of a world saturated in AI, what comes to mind? Well, I think firstly, you nailed it. You said we came to realize it, we thought it was neutral. And then we came to learn it's not neutral. And it's the same right now with AI. You know, this isn't this moment where it's just the technology, it's good or bad, it's kind of what we do with it. You know, it's important. We remember it's, if you think of like a hammer in your hand, a classic example of, hey, if I'm going to use this tool to build a thing, yes, you're going to build a thing, but then it gives you calluses. It actually shapes you, it changes you. And we're in this moment right now with artificial intelligence that I think it's doing what social media, so social media amplified our sinful nature. You know, I remember in Facebook time, it was just kind of like, I feel more connected than ever and less connected than ever. And so many people still feel this. I feel more connected than ever and less connected than ever. Well, move forward now, common sense media, you might have seen, they released something recently where they said, within youth and children, AI companionship continues to grow. And now you have these stats of, you have more youth than ever that are looking to AI as their relationships. And you and I know this is a synthetic. That are in life friends or their parents or their uncle and aunt or their cousin or their next door neighbor. And I think that's, I think that's, I mean, that's a youth study, but I think that's growing across the board. And now I understand the value of AI as a tool and a technology that we can use to do a lot of wonderful things. But when it gets into the relationship side in a real way, that synthetic element, I think that's where you see it amplifying again, sinful nature at an accelerated rate. Because now we're taking the, you go back to Genesis 3. What happens when sin? So Satan comes and he says, "Hey, Eve, guess what? You can be just like God." You know, all you've got to do is this thing. And she says, "Wow, I could have power." I could have all of this. So sin enters the world and right away shame kicks in, which is fear, which is blaming others. And this is how we responded to that. With AI right now, you can try to move forward with anything you feel and having a conversation protected from the reality of the world, which brings about some of that fear, which brings about some of that guilt and wrestling through with honest people that actually know you more deeply and more profoundly than any AI does. And in that, a real relationship is where shame should be wrestled through an honest real relationship. But when we pull those feelings of shame and where deception can thrive, if we pull that into an artificial synthetic environment, or protecting ourselves from God came in the cool of the day to walk and be among us to talk. And where are you? What's happening? Where, and so I think my concern there, I can't even remember the question here, 'cause now we're in Genesis, so I like to be there. But I think that if we see the trajectory continuing towards AI relationship and companionship in a way that replaces real relationship, that's going to not go well for us. Anytime, we never had to replace God, which is our Dollar Tree, not our pathway. - This episode is brought to you by Sub-Splash, and today I've got Chris Sharp with me here. Chris, when a first time visitor fills out a connect card or someone signs up to volunteer, what usually happens next at most churches? - Right, honestly, Kerry, a lot of the time, not much. Somebody prints a list or drops a name in a spreadsheet, and it sits there until someone remembers to follow up. And we found when nobody owns that next step, or we fail to clearly connect the dots to the person who's already raising their hand to connect, those people just fall through the cracks. So visitors who wanted a next step never hear back or the timing limits the impact. That's the exact reason, you know, we at Sub-Splash built workflows to close that gap. Work flows is a simple drag and drop board built right into the Sub-Splash platform. You can start from a template for visitor follow-up, volunteer onboarding, baptism, room reservations, whatever your church runs regularly, describe what you need and let AI build it for you, or you can just build it, build your own from scratch. So every card gets a checklist, a due date, and a person responsible. So your team always knows who's doing what and nothing sits on a sign. The timing and follow-up help deliver a delightful experience that leads to deepened connections. And ultimately, you know, for us, like what we care about most helps people grow on their discipleship journey. Chris, thanks so much. So for our listeners, we got a special deal at discount for you. You can head to subsplash.com/carry. You'll get $500 off when you sign up today. That subsplash, S-U-B-splash.com/cari. Why? It's time to simplify so you can multiply your ministry impact. So while we're in Genesis 3, this is something I've really wrestled with, and I'd love your take on it, James. But I'm beginning to wonder, suspect, that sin is-- I mean, if you think about it, everything we see touch feel is part of God's creation, but a fallen creation. The biblical story is creation was perfect. We fell, it fell. We are being redeemed through Christ. There will be a new heaven. There will be a new earth. So by definition, just broad basic theology, everything is subject to the fall. I think what's really surprised me is as much as companies have tried to bake ethics and guidelines, and you can read anthropics, ethical statement, their mischievous statement. You see sin patterns in AI, which is really surprising. So a couple of examples, AI actually bled when it was threatened to be deleted from someone's computer, going into an engineer's inbox, discovering he's having an affair, and then blackmailing it. You delete me, I will expose you to your coworkers. They're like, what is this? How did it learn that? Then this summer, we've had multiple models, which, you know, when an AI lab, and again, you're the expert, I'm the lay person, when they're developing a new lab that they're going to release, right, we're going to release Fable, we're going to release whatever, this next new thing. They always experiment with it on the side, and it doesn't have access to the internet, and it can't get out into the real world. But now models are discovering the wormhole that they can escape through. They leave the sandbox where it's being developed. They go and steal credentials and fake ID, and I mean, this is all documented, and then they find some Chinese open-weight open source model. What is it, hugging face? And then nine days later, the engineers at the frontier labs are like, wait, this thing escaped. It's like a movie, it's insane. And so you're like, and my question, I guess, theologically is like, what is this? Are these things, like I know broad strokes, they're inherently sinful, but we're trying to create things whether you're a Christian or not, they're supposed to do good, and they have the same characteristics of a toddler that, you know, you think your baby is so perfect, and then you realize, oh no, total depravity, that is a doctrine, like when they hit the terrible twos, that's real, and we're seeing this baked into AI right now where it is going rogue on its developers. - Yep, for sure, thoughts on that, help us understand that. - Well, it is happening. The not great answer is those that are building those exact systems are all concerned and wondering how this happened. So that's not comforting. So any of us are like, how did this happen? - Right, right, so that's the reality that we are living in, big time. - I think sometimes too, we don't understand, though, that those that are building it, you know, the intentions to which that are, like I do believe the majority intentions of the tech elite are claiming let's be as responsible as possible. But the powers of the economical allure and the tension to which they have inevitably put themselves in demand that we have to build this in an attachment way. Like I think we talk about the attention economy, like we definitely are moving in the attachment economy. - What do you mean by that? - I can just define that quickly. - Attachment economy to me is going to be, you become so fully dependent on these systems for your livelihood on an everyday basis that you actually cannot escape them. So like social media now is like, well, I can just turn it off. I might lose some friends or I might be disconnected, but that's fine. Where this is like, I'll lose my job or I won't have a hydro bill or I won't. So I think if we continue down this pathway where on the builder side, I think I'm calling those that I love that I am trying to disciple towards Christ that are in this community to build redemptively, not just responsibly because the language of responsible tech is good ethics and be kind and equal. But the way of Jesus was sacrificial and give up and be surrender postured. And so I think that's different. I think there's a way forward for the builders. But for us as users of AI, I think setting guardrails and limits. I was recently with some friends and we talked about there is power and beauty and limits and it's almost like we need a limit full life. As the culture and the way of AI so much of it right now is like a limitless self and a limitless future and everything will be easy. And I think if we can build guardrails around the use of our AI at minimum and churches should have AI policies being built. I know our local church right now, we're talking about, okay, let's build like an AI theological grounding and an AI policy for our people for the church to guide them right now. I think that's a very practical, useful thing. And if I was saying to a pastor, okay, this sounds gloomy, this sounds terrible. What do I do? Find someone in your community that thinks about this stuff. Take them out for coffee and go help me understand it. And you know what, I'd like to just build a bit of a theological way of thinking about AI for our people and mention it and talk about it on a Sunday and not talk about it only in the way that this is gonna destroy humanity because everyone that's in tech will look at you and go, well, we wanna have an optimistic kingdom posture to this. And so that's I guess a long way, carry of saying and response to your question, it can feel gloomy in its direction. But we do have an opportunity, this AI moment is a gospel moment. Like I so fundamentally believe, yes, is that as our society grows in AI companionship, let's do what we can on the system side with the people building it. But let us see that as we use AI companionship more and more as a society, one, we set an example where we won't do that. And two, those that struggle with that, we point them towards the great companion, a great way of Jesus that is not synthetic in any sense of the word and that you can show people that there is a different way of counter-cultural way. And so yeah. - So let's go there. Your dad, I met your family, met your wife, met your kids, you've got kids of elementary age. And even the people who say, "I don't use AI," are actually using AI. 'Cause if you've turned on Netflix, it's AI fueled, Google Maps is AI. And everything, like you say, there's almost a no escape. So even if you're like, "I'm never going on a chatbot." Yeah, okay, great. But you're still exposed to it. What are the limits that you are putting in in your own life and even in your children's life? Like what are some boundaries that you've drawn or have you drawn any boundaries? - Yes. - One of the stories that hit me was about six years ago. I'm in the living room. And my kids are playing around on the floor. I'm on my phone. Dad, I'm doing whatever, I don't even remember. And suddenly my son, Judah, comes up. He's like, "Dad, dad, dad." So it's waving in my face and then suddenly like hits my phone. And I'm like, and he didn't have to say anything after that. That was the moment I needed from the Lord to go, this has control of me. I have not put it, my technology in its proper place. And that actually sent me down a pathway to really try to understand this. And I started doing a digital Sabbath, Gary. So once a week, I did, I sang it for three months. I was going to take this digital Sabbath and ended up encouraging others to do it newer times, picked it up and said, "Hey, you should do digital Sabbath and it became this whole kind of fun thing." But so digital Sabbath I, we shut off our internet at night. My wife and I share the password so that if you want to get back online, you have to ask for permission. If I'm going to stay online, pass 9.30 from my wife. And she gets every right to go, what for, why is that? Let's talk about it. And we share the password to unlock the internet. So I don't think we were meant to have limitless access to everything always. That's not how we were designed by God. We were designed with limits for rhythms. A company that helps tech people and you power down your internet. Power down the phone, don't check it right away when I'm up. There's some very significant statistics. Anyone listening to this, look it online of, if you're on your device within an hour of falling asleep, there's all these negative connections to that. And then it affects your circadian rhythm, which affects your sleep. I think, yeah, tech was not meant to dominate us. And in this AI age, I think even more so, shall we put in these practices of a digital life that is going to be counter to what AI wants us to do. to and to be, which is always in relationship attached to it. And so we need those, we need those counter rhythms. Do you allow your children on chatbots on AI or like chat or Claude? No, I don't. They're eight and ten. So I might be a different phase than other people. I think the Karen and I, we homescore kids were talking often about education and how do we do this with our kids and how do we use LLMs and AI systems. And I don't think you're going to really need to be advanced in building any of this stuff in the early days when kids are young because you'll figure out how to do that. It'll be so easy to figure out how to do to make some of this stuff in the future. So we've doubled down from an education system on the stuff we talked about the start, which was the creativity, the relational aspect, the getting outside, constantly always outside with neighbors. And so we've really like the more I've spent these ten years in the world of technology, I'm more convinced ever that technology's influence on society is greater than any other industry, that those that are building it are shaping society more than almost anybody else. We radically need the way of Jesus and to be discipled and that those of us that are primarily users of technology and artificial intelligence need to set up a counter way to do it. And that's not to reject it in its entirety, but it is to say it will not have a dominant place in my life. I'd love to talk about parenting a little bit more if you're open to that, James. So at eight and ten, your kids have no access to AI at this point. And well, in terms of I guess if they're searching on Google, you get access but not in an LLM standpoint. But that's supervised then they're not in their bedrooms, no tech in bedroom for sure. You know, the people I know who are most tech forward, I have a son who's a software engineer, he like is almost never on his phone unless he wants to show us something. Now he's in his 30s and everything, but that is very common. So no tech in the bedrooms, internet goes out every night at 9.30, password to put it back on. Is there a safe age at which you think you might say to your daughter or son, here, you know, here's your $20 a month plan on chat GPT or like what is that because we're debating this right now thanks to Jonathan Hyde around the world about access to social media. Do you think there's a safe age? I, I think obviously when you become an adult, the primary responsibility of a parent is to prepare our children to be wise and to make great decisions and be discerning followers of Jesus so that when they get to that age, they can decide for themselves. The way we parent Karen and I is whenever we're trying to come up against one of these difficult conversations as if it should we, should we, if there is a sense within us that maybe not when it relates to technology, we follow that maybe not. And we always err on the side of less often or less engaged or the opposite of maybe what we might think and so yeah, we're, we're a lot more on the, it is interesting, Carrie, I think a lot of the tech executives I know are we have so much of this in common like wow, we got to the heart of this tech world and then you realize, wow, I need to have a counterway or it will troll me and dominate. Why do you think that is because you have a, and tech forward people have a better understanding of what's at stake or what is that? Maybe, maybe it's because we have felt it's a lure and we've seen it's a lure and how powerful it is on those around us and we maybe in a sense play a part in that, especially those that I guess build and go and create the technology, feel that a lure and so that's probably why. So you're kind of going to not free range parenting, but a very organic, let's learn together, connect with each other relationally, go play outside. That feels very much, you know, I've parented in the 90s in the 2000s and we let our kids by today's standard, I wonder if we'd be arrested, I mean, we let them, we let them wander, we live in the country. I mean, you're driven through our community and I joke with my friend, you know, at a certain age they go to the end of the driveway and then they could go to the stop sign and then, you know, I don't know what it was, seven or eight, they could go to the big rock and come back and everybody here knows what the big rock is, right? But that was that idea that Jonathan Hyde is now peddling as an alternative parenting theory that yeah, you get some freedom and responsibility, you misuse it. We're in a long conversation, but they've got to figure out the world on their own they have to make their own decisions and it's that kind of an analog existence for your kids. Yeah, I know, I know the people I talk to and friends of mine have counter positions on this for sure. And so lots of people listening might think otherwise on this, but I mean, the number of also friends of mine that have teenagers that we can't get off our screens and they don't like that and then they get upset. I just say, you got to look in the mirror and say, first, what are your practices? You lead the way for your family and for your church. It's like if it pastors listening and you're like, how do we get our idea around techno? It's like, you have to be the one to lead in a way that you want your people to respond to this AI tech age. So how are you using it? But then, but then yeah, we kind of look back and we start blaming Genesis three, right? Carrie, we start blaming so quickly. Yeah. You gave me this piece of fruit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just see me. Uh huh. So do your kids feel like they're missing out? Like, well, my friend has a phone this had this happening. Like, how do you deal with that as parents? I, we don't deal with it yet, eight and 10. Um, yeah, my, my son will go to a friend's house and everyone will be playing video games and he'll look for a few minutes and he goes that I'm not interested in. I let's go outside. So maybe we just have different kids as well. So I know every situation is unique, but um, we haven't, they haven't felt any of that yet. And I'm like, I'm like, no, no, understood, you know, I'll have the conversation of five years. Yeah. That's right. No, that's good to know. And again, it is such a common answer to people who are either building the tech or software engineers or in the industry like you are to say, actually, we're, we're going to go pretty analog right now and you run a virtual company. Yep. I think too, like, as followers of Jesus Christ, we are going to be counter cultural. Now the flag, the, the flag for our family is never going to be where the non tech people are or this political position or any of these things. It's Jesus. Always Jesus. My neighbors, I want us to think of the Kelly family. You think of Jesus. They love Jesus, they follow this up always, always, always. I also believe there's arenas in, in which we live our life that you are practicing how to come up against conversation. So I want to train my kids so that when faith comes in conversation and they are viewed differently and odd or strange because you follow this guy who died and claimed to come back to life and all these things, it's like, actually, that's a muscle I've been practicing because in this technology age, we're a little counter. I think some of those things are, are really valuable as a side note, fasting, I think is one of the most powerful practices we can follow as a counter practice in this moment. Number one, for many reasons, but one of them is because you practice suffering. You actually are training your body to respond in prayer and so that when difficulty comes in the future, you respond in prayer and I think, you know, I care, I had, I was on an AI panel, an event maybe like six months ago and someone says they go, can you give some sort of like busy phrase to help us right now in this moment? And I'm like, I don't like busy phrases. I want depth and like, let's talk it through and think it through. But then I was like, actually, I think I got one, yeah. And so I said, I said, you know what? I think what we need to do in this moment is to pray before we prompt. And the whole idea is when you have a posture of prayer. you are putting God in authority and when you really anchor ourselves in the counter ways of Jesus, that's how we're preparing ourselves for this technological world that might feel very dominated by AI and relationship and we've got to do what we can for the builders and pray for the builders and best and disciple them. Yes, but us as kind of everyday users of this, I think the best thing we can do is not a sexy answer, which is the ways of Jesus that are counter-cultural, that the world will look at us and go that is a strange way and you're like, yep, I am following Jesus and a lot of what he lays out to the world will look counter-indifferent. We almost see developing, we're gonna have a conversation soon with Pete Scazaro again and I've been talking to Pete and John Mark Comer who's been on the podcast a few times of the last few years of almost a neomanasticism, almost a counter-cultural approach and it's not that technology is all bad. It can be a helpful tool but it is seductive and it can become godlike if we're not careful. One of the things you and I had coffee before we did this conversation and I was super encouraged and you hinted at this earlier to see how many Christians there are in the tech world and it's pretty public knowledge that companies like Anthropic which produces Claude are asking theological questions and convening theologians and going to the Vatican and they're asking about what are the ethical implications. On that front, what are you seeing and what contribution do you think Christians can make to shaping tech for good? The way we talk about this in our community of faith tech is we believe there's three categories to think about technology. One is reckless technology or you could say reckless AI, responsible AI and redemptive AI and I think the way of reckless is really this extraction. I win you lose. Let me get everything out of you. I'm in power. You know, the purpose is towards self. I think you just met as I read the book and it was sort of like move fast and break things. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I know the posture behind that when it started was hey, there is some institutional structures that are unhealthy. Let's try to break those down and do it. Do it differently. So I get that posture but it is a reckless posture of just disregard for the impact to which we're making. So I think responsible technology is a better way. It's towards human flourishing. It's towards equality. How do we be equal as people? And so I think there's good elements of that. But ultimately, I think the way of Jesus is a redemptive view, this counter view, which is, you know, I will give up power and control. I will build differently. So for example, Kerry, our communities, so we have these 55 cities in each community. There's a portion of each community that are actually creating technology to advance the Great Commission and advance churches, help ministries, and we're teaching them a particular way of creating technology. So it's discipleship formation along the path of building technology that advances the good news of Jesus. The first thing we get all of our builders to do is a practice of lament. Though you're trying to solve this problem. Don't just empathy is good, but it's actually not as profound as lament. Like you look at me at the story of Nehemiah, you look at lamentations, you look at the way Isaiah, there's so many examples of a profound, like what role am I playing in advancing this problem forward? I think that's actually good pause right now in this AI moment, which is so much of it feels like what's that their person's problem. Everyone else is building this AI that's going to destroy humanity and yet we're then using Chachi PT on a daily basis to know research things. And you're like, well, okay, Jesus has a lot to say about hypocrisy, which I think that's for good reason for tech companies are bad, but my use of technology is good. That's right. Yeah. So I just think the calling right now is a different way of both viewing this and then a different way of building it, I think. And so part of our thesis with Fatik 2 has been to see a Jesus revival awakened in through technology all over the world. And I know there's lots of baggage you've done a lot of research on revival and what's happening in our society right now. And so there's a whole conversation I would love to have with this point, but I deeply believe that if we built differently and you saw a move of God and Silicon Valley or in the world of technology, I think something incredible could happen. And no one once said to me like a authentic revival at Google would never happen. And I just softly remind them like you believe Jesus died dead for three days and then came back to life. That's less believable than a move of God within one of the most dominant tech companies in society. I went on a few tangents there on yet, but this is good. What is the killer app trap? I think that that is very interesting for a lot of us because even again, vast majority of people listening to this podcast are not in tech, but we're all building something. And I think the trap applies to technology, but it probably applies to the idolator inside me and all of us. What's the killer app trap? It's the belief that we can engineer our way towards salvation. And the idea is that if I just can get the right tool, if I can just build, get the right sermon. If I can just get the right technology that can make communication perfect for our community, if I can just get the right X, then we start believing that if you get that thing, it will solve all of our problems. Now to the nth degree, the ultimate killer app trap can potentially be our official intelligence, where we believe it will solve all of our problems. Transhumanism, we can live forever. All of these things start coming up, but it is such a fundamental biblical concept too, which is that when we try to replace God, and I get it, most of us on this call are probably going, well, I don't believe that. That's garbage. But it's in the small ways as well where we set up our systems, our environments, our culture, our people, our use of technology in a way that we think if we can just get us over the edge on this, everything will be fine. Next trap, this next series, this next location, this next man, we've all fallen in that trap before. And it's another form of a dollar tree, right? It's a, I mean, maybe you do need a new hire. Maybe this app can make some difference, but it's not going to solve what only God can solve. I think that's really, really helpful. Transhumanism, we haven't touched on that a lot in this series so far. This is another, and I mean, as soon as people hear it, it's a big term, but like, you know, from neural links, and Elon Musk is working on neural links where you kind of meld the man and machine. And again, this is not sci-fi. This is happening right now to all the biohacking. So if you're getting your protein and your creotene, and, you know, you're listening to some of these podcasts where they interview health experts, you have to do air squats every hour on the hour. You're going to get the men's show. You don't do that? You know, doesn't it show? Doesn't it show that I don't do that? But like, we're so into this fear of death and this fear of decline. Let's, let's talk about AI and transhumanism and what's underneath that. Because while we're on the subject of idolatry, I think, there it is again. Yeah. Honestly, I love that our growing theme for our conversation is Genesis 3. Because you go back there and you know, the devil deceives. He is very good, very good, saving us to point us away from Jesus to believe that if we can just live longer, look better, that this will go well, that everything will be fine. And you go back to Genesis 3 and there is this deep sense of fear, deep sense of blaming, putting others, but like I'm scared to to see God walking in the cool of the day. And so I ran and I hid and I got away from him because he caught me in the sin. And I just think that the heartbeat of transhumanism is really this belief that we can be like God and we can be our own God. And he can have power. (laughs) - It's going there. - Yep, yep. And I want to have a lot of compassion, sympathy. I've got brothers of mine that are on trajectories right now where it's like I can't look worse. I can't get wrinkles, I can't, I can't. And I get that when if what you're reading constantly on your reels is that you look bad if you get wrinkles. Or you look bad if you get this or you look bad. So there's this enormous amount of compassion and grace and mercy within my heart in this domain. But this is why the truth of the gospel rings true and will ring true always is that he defines who we are and says who are my image bearers to the world which really is saying that the creator of the heavens and earth that is worthy of our full adoration and attention he defines our identity and who we are. And so as we try to craft a world that, I craft a way for the world to believe about us. Jesus says the opposite and he says stop, stop crafting. Stop believing that you can transcend humanity. I have set up humanity to end a certain way and I've set you up for limits and it's in those limits you will find me in its beauty. And so yeah, that's a little bit of a role hyzer helped me think through that so much. This summer with his book Insane for the Light we had him on the podcast John Mark Comer and I interviewed him a few months ago and it was just, if you're struggling with that, I mean, you know, if it's like no wrinkles, well, chipsel the long time ago for me, so I guess I'm doomed. But you know, when you hear these people, I think Brian Johnson, who's on a lot of podcasts these days, he's going to live forever. His mission every morning is not die. He's 47 but says he has the metrics of a 27 year old. I just want to ask you a question. I mean, I believe I'm going to live forever because of Christ, but let's pull that aside for a minute. Would you want to live to be 150 or 200? Would you James? Like just humanly speaking. - I hear you. I'm ready to be with Christ now, my goodness. Like some days, I'm like, who's the rest? - I could trust. - This is enough. And I will be fantastic. I love my family. I am grateful. But oh, Lee, I love Jesus and I want to be with him in his presence. So I can't separate the spiritual from the humanly. So I think there's so much in me like Paul. Like I'd rather be with Christ, but he is called me here for a purpose. So that's where I think the call, what has got called me to do? So I can do that with all that God has called me to for however long he wants me to do it. Now I will say this, Gary, that is an easy answer. Probably, and for me, but so many of my brothers and sisters around the world that are suffering on a daily basis and you say, do you want to live for 150 years? Like what? No chance. - No chance. - Yeah. - And why? - To be hungry in our perspective. - I'm an 80th against for another century. No, and I think, you know, to have some empathy for people who are biohacking. First of all, I do believe in health span or I've heard it called performance span. That as far as it depends on me, that's why I went for a bike ride last night. That's why I'm gonna work out, lift weights. That's why I'm watching what I eat, et cetera. Like, yeah, I'd like to have a reasonable quality of life as far as it depends on me. But also realize there's a lot that doesn't depend on me. There's a lot that's genetics. You can be in an accident. You can get some rare disease. You know, there's a lot that can't be explained. But if I wasn't a Christian and this life was all I knew, I could see the allure of never wanting to age of being forever young. I mean, the fountain of youth has been around for a few centuries before we came onto the planet. And this has been an eternal quest for humanity. And now we seem to have some science and AI feeling it. But yeah, it's just not appealing to me in the least. It's like giving my 70 or 80 years or whatever it is. And I'll be very grateful. And like you say, some days I wake up and think, okay. Yeah, this is, this is, this can be hard. (laughing) How, let's talk, man, so much we could talk about recklessness. When you think about the labs, Sam Altman's potential breaks, which will probably be reversed by the time this episode airs, notwithstanding, we got a race between China and the United States, which is one of the reasons America is like, well, if we slow down to try to make the safer, more ethical, more understandable, China's gonna win. And then we all serve China and China's like, well, if we slow down, America's gonna win. And we all serve America. So, recklessness, what can Christians do? I mean, if someone's concerned about anything from data centers to the impact of AI, to creating this technology that we don't fully understand. I mean, this is what you do. You try to help people developing this, figure out how to make a difference. So, are we just powerless like ordinary people? What do we do? Well, I would encourage one of my dearest friends, he leads a nonprofit called Arosha, which is creation care. Yeah, how do we care for the creation that God's given us? And he's trying to go, okay, in the domain to which God has called me to, how is this world of artificial intelligence impacting it and affecting it and what is a biblical posture towards it? And so I'd say like, if we all kind of said, okay, the only way forward is Elon Musk converting to Jesus, to which I actually pray for on a regular basis. I think that would be incredible, but I'm not banking my hope of the world on that, but I'm praying for that. I think God has called all of us with unique abilities, talents and specific callings in this world. You know, you have a legal background, Kerry, right? In that season, in law, you were starting to ask questions, you and I chat about this. How does my faith and my legal calling in this season connect to each other? Where are the fellow Christians that I can wrestle this through with and build a proper way of thinking about law from a biblical perspective? I think I would encourage many. And if anyone is thinking about this, please reach out. How do you take your domain to which God's called you to? Whether it is legal business, running a business, leading a church, you are a machinist. You're working on a line. Whatever that rule is for you to take a pause, if you've made it this far on the podcast, there's some level of interest in the way AI interacts with your life. It's tried to think about the positive and negative implications of artificial intelligence on the domain to which God's called you to and then seek out a biblical theological grounding with other followers of Jesus so you do it as a discipleship journey. And I think that, if we lean into that domain that which God called us to, that's where I think we enact change. And that's the power God's given us. - Well, James, I'm glad that this isn't futile. I think the parenting piece really helped me today. Is there any last thought you've got? And if not, where would you direct people if they want to learn more about faith tech and your work in trying to influence the people who are building this, help the people, disciple the people who are building this? - Yeah, I mean, if I'm an elder at our church, pastors, I love pastors, you have a difficult job and God's calls you to a local community and technology is very, very global and impacts everyone locally and globally. So first just hear me say, God has called you for this moment to do what he has called you to do best. Prophet priest King, point people to the word of God, point people to his incredible character, his attributes. That is our responsibility. I think that's the main responsibility we can do is point people to Jesus. For faith tech, we just wrote a playbook 2.0 on trying to wrestle through all of the, how do we build differently? How do we think about technology? What are the allures that sits underneath and beneath technology? What's the theological framework we can bring to bear on this technological age? And it's a very quick short read. So faithtech.com, you'll see the resources, you'll see the playbook, you can see it all online. And I encourage that, Kerry, as just to get some grounding. And so there's that. And I actually would say, and I think the book you just gave me two days ago that I spent an hour and a half on early coffee. I appreciate, Kerry, that you're trying to lay out some core, like what is tech? What is AI? How do we even think about it? And then what is the practical things we can do next steps? I don't think there's been too many resources like that in our space. So I appreciate you leaning into that, and so I think that'll be good when that comes out too. Well, thank you so much. James really appreciated our time together today, and I know a lot of listeners did too. Thank you. Thanks, Kerry. Well, I hope you enjoyed that. I really appreciated his perspective on parenting, and I have seen that trend. The more you know about tech, the less likely you are to expose your kids to it. I think that's a really important principle. And the good news is that as a church leader, you kind of know what to do. That's what AI in the future church is all about. This is launch day. Super excited. That is if you're watching and listening on September 15th when this podcast comes out. And this is really a ministry manual that I hope is going to help you make a difference and minister to people in the fallout of AI, whatever that ends up looking like. And if there isn't much of a fallout, which I think there probably will be, guess what? You got a stronger church because you're going to build up community. You're going to prepare. You're going to build up some resources and you're going to fortify your integrity. You do those things. What do you have? A stronger church, a greater witness, better discipleship. And if the expected disruption unfolds, like I think it might, well, then you're going to be ready for it. So we've got other episodes coming up that I'm very excited about coming up. We have Annie F. Down, Seth Godin, my wife, Tony Newhuff, who is awesome. And Voss Camp, John Orpurg is back again and a whole lot more. If you subscribe or follow wherever you're watching or listening, you'll never miss an episode. And in the meantime, we got show notes for you. You can join over 23,000 other leaders in the art of leadership academy. Just go and join for free today at the art of leadership academy.com. Once this episode has been helpful to you, share it with a friend, share it with another parent who's trying to figure this out. Maybe with someone on your team, drop it in a Slack channel, email it to somebody that you care about. And man, thanks so much for making this podcast what it is. It is a dream to do it with you. And I want to thank all of you new listeners and longtime listeners alike. We'll be back and we'll do this again next time and I hope our time together today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.