AI Panic: Dario’s Warning, Trump’s Dismissal, and OpenAI’s IPO Delay

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It does seem like across sex and dating and partnership, cohabitation, marriage, all of these behaviors are kind of on the decline. How to fight the romance slump and find a connection in real life. That's this week on Explain It To Me. New episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. You have this weird shadow on your face. Oh, I know, because I'm waiting for it. I'm just getting something. It's scary, you scot. We don't need shadows for that. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. Scott, I just did interview with Jess Tarlaugh for your side piece. Or you're the hero side piece, really, I think. I think that's how I'm going to characterize it now. Tell us about you interviewing her better now. For her book. For her book. Yeah, it's called "I Disagree" and it's about getting along better even in disagreement. Let's do often, actually. Our book would so be called. And I was right by Cara Swisher. No, no, no. You mean, let's rake Scott over the calls for something stupid. He said off-mic that my friends are giving me a hard time on. Well, why do you keep saying stupid things off-mic? On-mic. Stupid is, stupid does. Whatever forced comp used to say. But, Scott, seriously, here's how my day went. Okay. This week, I think I was at a kid thing. Yeah. Phone rings. Mayor of San Francisco. Uh-oh. Sorry. Let me just apologize up front. Girl. What the fuck? Essentially, he doesn't say talk like that because Daniel Lurie is the nicest person on the planet. Yes. And he's like, hey, Scott said something. I said, I fucking saw it. He took a one block, he took a, he went on the worst block of San Francisco. And then decided all of San Francisco was like that. And I said, I heard that fucker. And he goes, no, no. I see he has a point of view, but we've been working. He was infinitely reasonable. And I was like, don't be reasonable for that asshole. Yeah. But then I gave him your phone number. And he, did he call you? He called you. So just some context for the, for the listeners. I was in San Francisco for our, oh, do whatever it was we were doing. And I love the Austin proper in Austin. And so I stayed at the San Francisco proper, which I would describe as dark and dingy, but expensive. And I love San Francisco. I have future faction for it. I think physically it's the most beautiful city in the Union. And my sister and I, I said, let's walk to Cafe Zuni. I've been there in 25 years. I love that restaurant. We walked. I guess there's about a mile when I looked it up on maps. It'll be nice to walk. And quite frankly, it was, it just felt very, very ugly and very dystopian in terms of the number homeless, number of people struggling. And I went on the next day on the podcast and I said, look, I said San Francisco has, still has real problems. And I said, I saw hundreds of homeless. And of course it got clipped. San Francisco still sucks. And my sister to her credit, who is more center right than I am center left, said, it's gotten better. And she said, we're in a really bad part of town right now. Anyways, I said this. The clip goes viral because people understandably got offended and push back on, you know, douchebag from New York and London, ship hosting San Francisco with a misrepresented of sample. And I get a four and five call, which I never answer if it's unidentified, but for some reason I pick it up. And I hear, Scott, it's Mayor Laurie. Oh, fuck. I gave him your number. I totally did. I thought for a second, I thought, no, I'll give it to him. Sure, Mayor Laurie. Anyways, he was, the guy couldn't have been more thoughtful. He's like, he wasn't defensive or contradictory to me. He said he wanted to know exactly where I walked, exactly what I saw. And we had a very thoughtful conversation around the homeless issue, which every city official will tell you is the most intractable, difficult issue to face. And I asked him to just send me some stats on San Francisco, because he said it is getting better. But just some stats, car break ins, 22 year lows, down 83% between 2017 and 2025. Un sheltered homelessness at lowest level in 15 years, with the fewest encampments on our streets since the city started counting in 2019. The reset center where law enforcement can bring individuals for using drugs in public is referring 39% of admitted individuals to some form of services. For example, treatment recovery shelter and getting cops back on the street in under five minutes. I think of this as, I mean, first off, this guy is impossible not to like. But I think this is an example of good governance at a state and local level. And what's plagued us is all of these guys and gals see themselves as the next president and start talking about Israel or start talking about Trump. No, just do what Mayor Lurie does and says the biggest problem right now is crime and homelessness. And I'm going to attack that and I'm not going to offend the other half by being an ideal log. I'm just going to focus on operations and being the executive I was elected to be. Yeah. For those who don't know, he had a background with with a foundation. It's very similar to Robin Hood Foundation in San Francisco that he was working on these issues. So he's very familiar with them. The other thing he's been helped in the way other mayors weren't by a Supreme Court ruling that allowed people to stop the encampments. That was blocked for many, many years so you couldn't do anything. You got sucked up into all these sort of homeless legal industrial complex that stopped you from doing that. He's improved it a lot and it's because of a wide range of things, but he really is an ideal mayor for the moment in terms of solving things and he has a very even handed. You know, they'll be controversy around him as he pushing this as he doing that and everything else because it's a very difficult city to govern. But I appreciate that you talked to him. Well, I want to be clear, it's not fair of me to take 24 hours in an isolated area and make a generalization about San Francisco. And you live there. And so your senses, and I think you just answered my question, your senses things are distinctly better. Yes, distinctly. So anyway, I appreciate it. I'm glad that next time you stay at my house, which is beautiful and Louis will make you pay in kicks. I want to be able to call someone and yell at them about room service and I want to walk around there. I'm just not, I'm not a good house guy. Yeah, you can yell at Louis. Louis will pretend that it's a hotel. It's a beautiful house. I have been a beautiful section where there are not homeless people. And I've been to your house. You have a beautiful home. Anyway, thank you for talking to him. I keep thinking I'm going to like run into Tracy Chapman in the hallway. She's there. She's nearby. I don't know why. I imagine you being very good friends with her. I know her. I know her. I don't know her well. She, she, I think she's still in San Francisco. Yeah, she lives on the corner. Yeah, she lives really close to me. Anyway, let's go on for what we're doing. First, Donald Trump is dismissing AI concerns. This is the story Scott. We really have to talk about this saying any efforts to limit the technology or potter of a sick conspiracy against AI and data centers. We're part of a sick conspiracy. Scott, according to Trump, the only control or guardrails that AI needs is a strong and smart high IQ president. And the USA has that in spades. This comes after Anthropics CEO Darryu Modi published an essay over the weekend calling on the AI industry to slow the pace of development. He wants independent evaluators to review company safety practices, an urgent global effort, including China to create standards and limits. And a rare and convenient show of unity, both Sam Altman of Open Anne, Elon Musk of Grock are backing Darryu's call for a slowdown. Darryu also spoke out on face the nation about wanting the government to be involved in all of this. Let's listen. Anthropic and I would hope other companies have done everything we can to try to have legitimate oversight mechanisms. I think the government and the public needs to have a stake and this is why we've supported regulation of the technology. Regulation constrains the private companies. Regulation allows the public and its elected representatives to have a say and limits what the private companies can do. So will the government get involved? Let's listen to what Speaker Mike Johnson said on Meet the Press. I think we've got to have meaningful regulation that does not smother American innovation. Now how to solve that equation, no one knows yet. We're not going to rush in and pass a piece of legislation that would do harm to the country and put China as an edge. And so we've got to do this carefully. Of course, we vote on that tomorrow if we had the solution and I'll call everybody into session any day. But we have to make sure we're doing it the right way. I think the first step is to have a meeting of all the platform providers. I've talked to the President about this and others. I believe that's the next step, I think we need to do this. Do it quickly. - Of course, they've been meeting with them for months. They were all at the inaugural mic, anyway. And they've been meeting tons. A lot of people are wondering what's called for this slowdown now. Did they see something, or is it just money? David Sacks, who is Trump's guru, who's been pushing just sort of wild west kind of policies posted, stopped pretending the motivation is to slow down, is purely altruistic, noting they want to slow down open source. In this case, I agree with David Sacks, although I think he's been a menace because he's not allowed any reasonable legislation to go through. In video, CEO Jensen Wong responded to AI fears last week saying, what better way to create a demand than to create a problem. We'll get to OpenA and not going public until next year, which we've said many times. But talk a little bit about this, 'cause there's a lot happening here and suddenly all at once. Spurned by that anthropic researcher who said, it's gonna kill us, which I think got everybody's attention. - Well, Speaker Johnson's response to this, what feels like existential issue, was basically to send out a save the date, to say that we should meet about it, and to say that if there was anything that reasonably cut the very fine, or thread the very fine needle of not wanting to get in the way of innovation and create shareholder value and economic growth, which is key to an economy at the same time recognizing the externalities, which, by the way, is attention we have dealt with for centuries with respect to economic progress versus not capturing too many games to shareholders and outsourcing all the problems to the public. That at the end of the day, other than keeping the nation safe is what governments do through thoughtful legislation and local officials. Do they make that gavel for a man or a leader? Governor Newsom has passed 12 laws attempting to regulate AI. In China, they have laws that say no bot can pretend to be a person for longer than a certain amount of time because they realized in their nation and other nations, adults and kids were falling in love with Cersei Lannister. They have certain hours that kids cannot use AI. They have all sorts of limits around how AI can be used for information. Now granted, they're using it for control. - Right. - But they have a lot of regulation and what do they-- - Yeah, they understand that they understand the dangers. - They understand the threat. - And what do you know, 75% of the Chinese populace is optimistic about AI. And we haven't done anything. Right now, America is an engaging in an experiment. It's the following. We have never in the history of the modern economy had a trillion dollar industry that is totally unregulated, totally unregulated. - And like he's like, we'll get to it. But it's like, it's been 20 years, Mike, in case you're interested in, we've seen the damage done. Let me just posit something. One of the things, I wrote to a pretty prominent technologist in this area and they said, I was trying to compare it to nuclear proliferation, right? This is a very similar kind of thing. It should be global. I've been pushing for global standards for years and years with both Democrats and Republicans. And he said, if this was back then, Truman would have nationalized AI at this point. - That's an interesting point. - I know. And this was someone who does not believe in a lot of government thing. He goes, we're at the, it needs to be nationalized. Now Donald Trump saying any efforts are part of a sick conspiracy, data centers, like do nothing is politically. This is like not a good idea, I think. And especially since he's utterly incompetent. He is not the person who is high IQ that can handle this. He is someone that gets bought and paid for by the technology industry. Talk a little bit about the feeling also on the flip side that it's all these companies trying to zone out open source by solidifying because they can, if the government passes regulations, they can pay for them as opposed to small startups and things like that. - There's just so much here. The first is I'm gonna bring up a name here, Diane Whipple. Do you remember that name? - I don't, but go for it. - 33 former All-American lacrosse player. And in January 2001, about 25 years ago, she was mauled to death in the hallway for Pacific Heights Building by two Cresa Canario dogs. Do you remember this? - Yes, I lived there then. It was terrifying, yep. - And. - Crazy neighbors with a crazy dog, yeah. - And the neighbors were prosecuted, one is still in jail, one died in jail, because the law decided if you have these agents, i.e. vicious dogs, and you know they're capable of this, and they're off leash, and they run into a hallway, and they mall someone, and kill that person, you are on the hook for this. And now we're seeing across the nation that if parents don't secure their AR-15s, and they're mentally ill, 15 year old gets ahold of one of these things, we're gonna prosecute the parents. And this goes to incentives. Right now, I would argue the majority of senior level executives claiming, oh no, Frank's out of control, as in Frankenstein, is an attempt to absolve themselves of the responsibility that they own these fucking pit bulls. By the way, pit bulls are lovely dogs, I don't mean to malign pit bulls. - Yeah. - I don't think they're, okay, maybe some of it is concerned fine, but this is about incentives. You are responsible for these agents and these bots, and while you wanna capture the shareholder and the upside of the good things they do, that means you are responsible for the downside. - Correct. - The fact that we have nothing resembling the IAEA, we have cooperated multilaterally with-- - We have not blown ourselves up. - With enemies on nuclear weapons for eight years for bioweapons, the first thing that needs to be done by Trump is he needs to get into a room with she and say we have a mutually vested interest in no one developing a super virus. We have a mutually vested interest in our youth, not killing themselves. We have a mutually vested interest, especially China. In some level of control of misinformation that enrages people and gets them to start demonizing and going after and lynching people in a room or-- There is so much overlap in terms of mutually vested interest that they could get in a room with talented technologists and diplomats and say here's a two or three page quote unquote memo of understanding around what we are going to do, but the incentives need to change, and there needs to be something regarding leadership and a regulatory body here. And by the way, there are examples of how to do this. And I was thinking about this last night, the model in my opinion is the FAA, where the SEC after the 1929, green market safety review for all models above a certain capability long. - Never gonna happen with Trump, just like never. - Well, okay, then that void will be filled by Newsomers someone else. And I do think this is about to become a campaign issue. This is about to bubble up from data centers to the danger of the models in terms of an election issue. Green market safety review for models above a certain capability line before deployment. Mandatory incident reporting similar to the NTSB, the National Transportation Safety Board. Anything goes wrong. You have to file it immediately and make us aware of it. And then you fund it with the transaction fee on frontier compute the way Finra works. That way taxpayers aren't subsidizing oversight of the richest companies in history. And taking the one thing every fast moving industry hates and needs an independent evaluator with, wait for it, subpoena power. Not what Dario's recommending these embedded evaluators. Hey, Susie works for the government. It makes 150th of you and she has no real fucking teeth. But take her out with you tonight to the all hands. Dario is literally asking for this zero teeth zero. Well, they all are like Mike Johnson. Let me just interject Mike Johnson's like, let's get together with the leaders. Why are they making the decision? No, they love meeting at those fucking dinners. Have you been invited to one of those Trump dinners? 'Cause we know a lot and we've been actually accurate. We have been talking about this issue for years. One thing we have to do, and I think we've done a very good job here on pivoted articulating is people fucking hate you guys. Like let's bring that, let's bring citizens in, let's bring regulators in, let's bring academics and scientists in that do not agree with you on your lookout. Bring people that don't have a financial interest in what's gonna happen here. And change the narrative. This is one that's driving me crazy. AI will kill 10% of immunity. No, they won't. The people who make AI will kill. 100%. Let's stop talking about AI. Being, it's like saying electricity will kill whatever percentage and they did. By the way, the bombs and kill 50,000 Japanese, we did. That's correct, like the bomb is just the tool. And for them to characterize it, like, I don't know. Like who, I don't know how the mistakes were made by whom. And they need to be absolutely liable up to and including jail. If one of their bots creates a virus and kills people, they need to go to jail, period. - That's right. - Period. And the fact that they're characterizing is AI will do this. AI will do nothing. They will do something by creating AI. And the fact that Trump is in there, he is a bot and paid for. Corrupt, demented person. And we should not put this in his hands in any way whatsoever. He's not just ignorant, he's corrupt. And so it creates this terrible, we're in a position as if someone crazy was in charge when nuclear proliferation, the nuclear bomb happened. Can you imagine letting companies. figure out whether we should drop the bombs, just we can't do that. That makes me crazy. - Well, okay, so again, the analogy I've always used is would we let Oppenheimer raise money from Andrews and Horowitz and start selling nuclear bombs in a PNG and UAE, we wouldn't. However, practically, we're not nationalizing companies that offer this much shareholder value in the innovation. We're just not. Now, and by the way, I just want to correct the record. I said 50,000 Japanese. 50,000 people died on the initial burst. Somewhere between 150 and 250,000 Japanese died between the explosions and the fallout in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Okay, what are known knowns here? Trump's not gonna do fucking anything. - Nothing. - He doesn't understand it. The people around him are too old and too incompetent to understand these technologies. This would take real work and real effort. And he's-- - They're also on the take. - Their view is how do we get a VIG? How do we let these companies make trillions of dollars and we get a VIG either? Directly or indirectly, hey UAE, you can have GPU chips. If you fund my kid's crypto venture or my son-in-law's golf course. So do you-- (laughs) RFK Jr. He's the head of HHS. He is charged with the nation's health. He oversees something called the CDC, the Center for Disease Control. The greatest threat right now to the control of disease is the possibility that one of these frontier labs has tools that develop a super virus. If we had anybody resembling a competent head of HHS, they would already have 40 or 50 scientists and technologists sitting in the fucking offices of these companies with full force of law saying, "I'm not asking you what I need to see, I am telling you." And then asking these models before they are allowed to be touched by anybody, how do I make a super virus and see what they say? The CDC should be on site here. - Well, this is a guy that just eats steak for breakfast. It works out in jeans and is really quite mentally ill from what I can tell, like in all ways. Like he has no interest in this. They have no-- the people that should have interest in this do not or they're on the take. Or they are just-- they're on the take. I don't know what else to say about this government at this point because this is incredibly, and by the way, Mike Johnson, you are actually a representative of the people allegedly and instead you are hand in glove with Trump. You wanna have dinners with these people and let me tell you the minute you lose the midterm, you're gonna be a footnote to these people. They will move along from you because you didn't get them what they wanted. They're not interested in you. They think you're an idiot. I know this for a fact. And your job is to represent the American people, which nobody is representing them here. And again, let me stress, there's not a 10% chance that they will kill us. There's a 10% chance that these companies and their leaders will kill us. That is what we have to keep saying over and over again. - So the known known, is the Trump administration will not be effective here nor do they have any desire. So what could be done? And I never miss a chance to sound more important than I am. I'm having dinner with James Milliken tonight who is the president of the University of California. Before that, he was the president of the University of Texas. This is a-- - This is your board meetings. - That's right. - Congratulations, by the way. - This is a talented man with very strong political connections with an unbelievable command of education. This is my idea. He needs to hire Alex Stamos and he needs to assemble a collection of technologists, legal scholars, social scholars, philosophers and put together what is the largest evaluation committee and Blue Ribbon panel and immediately offer it up for any frontier model and then get, and I think they would sign up. Altman, Amade, Huang, maybe Musk. I think they would agree to this thing. I think they are actually at the point where like, if we don't get something resembling a thoughtful, credible committee or evaluation board that services a model for regulatory board, there have never been companies with multi-trillion dollar valuations that are this vulnerable. I'm sitting here in my hotel room looking at the intersection between Santa Monica and Bolshevik Boulevard's. If it got out that a rogue bot started fucking with the traffic lights and there were some car accidents here, the next day these companies might have to actually shut down. - Yeah, yeah. - These companies are so-- The media is waiting with baited breath for anything regarding a rogue action here. And can I say, I do, again, I cannot stand, David Sags. I think he's been a menace here, but he is correct. The motivation of slowdown is not altruistic. They are trying to solidify their strengths, so open source. At the same time that they're warning us, they're trying to protect their businesses so they can dominate and nobody else can. They're trying to quash innovation. And this I agree with them. That said, he's been incredibly irresponsible in blocking any kind of guardrails. And so just 'cause you say one right thing, David, doesn't mean I think you're not a menace. In related news, speaking of money, 'cause money, you have to pay attention to the money or Sam Altman has confirmed that OpenA will not go public this year. He told Fortune that given the current safety concerns, this would be an ill-advised moment to take the company public. This is just an excuse. This is they can't go public. Scott, I'd like to play a prediction you made back in February. - I think that what was especially the most anticipated IPO, it was the IPO of OpenAI in 2026, some time this year, early 27. I don't think that's gonna happen. I think that, yeah, I think this company is now is gone into full, I don't call it panic mode, but it feels as if the momentum has a habit of creating more momentum. And I think the momentum is really negative around this company. - Meanwhile, Anthropics have really chosen NASDAQ for its IPO, even as it's scared of killing everybody, it will be going public, which could happen as soon as October. So how does Dario move forward with the IPO? If he's so concerned, he's so concerned, Scott. And what does this mean for OpenAI? 'Cause these are the two twin, everybody else's peanuts compared to these two. Well, except for Gemini, but that's within Google, but go ahead. - Well, we're never ones to feel bad for tech CEOs, but Dario and Sam are being pulled in a lot of directions right now. They have the society and philosophers and media saying, okay, do you really wanna be the guys in your late 30s known as the greatest murderers in history? Or be the ones that are responsible for hospital systems, having the power cut off through a cyber attack that thousands of people die 'cause they can't get their kidney dialysis so the emergency room lights go out. They have, I gotta believe that unlike Mark Zuckerberg or even Cheryl Sandberg, or I think it's given way more credit for not being psychotic than she should. I get the sense, I'd like to think these guys are actually concerned for a lot of reasons. Having said that, their job is to get their A, B, C, D, E, and F, round investors who have invested hundreds of billions in their companies a return. And a lot of these guys, the VCs and the employees have already started spending that money. Housing prices are up 24% in San Francisco. You don't think that all the engineers at OpenAI have already gone out and started shopping for houses. You don't think the series see it, OpenAI is counting their money and saying, I have this basket of shit in my portfolio and my stake in the B of OpenAI is fine. It's gonna pay for the entire fund. And I'm going to be a successful VC finally. What, you're delaying it? What the fuck, no, get out. These guys are being pulled in a lot of different directions and because they've a total lack of leadership, of a regulatory body that says, this is what is required to have a safe frontier model. This is what is required for a company like yours to assess the risks and put out an S1 and actually go public. They're in no-man's land. There's too much, look what's happened in the market. Just since the kid came out and said, there's a 10% chance of an extinction event. This is what's happened. Soft bank is down 15%. In videos, down 3%, core wave, down 9%, Oracle, down 5, Microsoft, Amazon, and alphabet all lower, NASDAQ futures down 1.5% to 2%. These, not only OpenAI in video and anthropic are really fragile right now, the entire economy is really fragile because Trump has made a giant bet on AI, which is responsible for 90% of the cat-backs increase, 72% of the earnings growth, a ridiculous amount of the GDP growth. So our economy is now resting on a pillar where a guy showed up, a 28-year-old showed up and said, oh, by the way, the 40% of the NASDAQ is kind of engaged in the saying that might be an expected death of 80 million people. If that's just, or 800 million, if you believe my 10% calculation, this is such a failure of leadership and governance. There should have been a regulatory body a couple of years ago telling the media. The Godfather of, I apologize, I'm all over the place. The Godfather of AI right now, Hinton summarized it perfectly. AI can go one or two ways. There can be a very good AI that helps solve pancreatic cancer, makes people more productive, lowers costs, it figures out a way to take care of, mom, more efficiently, extend life, extend, call it. There's all sorts, figure out threats of nuclear debt, others, all sorts of wondrous things AI could do. Good AI, bad AI. I won't even go into the specifics of bad AI. We can all imagine them. But the. The fork in the road, a big component of the fork in the road is thoughtful leadership and multilateral cooperation of which there is none right now. Right. And it's all coming. And that's the thing politically. This is a power kid. California Governor Gavin Newsson just signed a package of 13 bills, targeting social media and AI use for kids, creating some of the strongest online protection in the country. The bills include a ban on platforms offering addictive features to users under 16, as well as strong or safe guards for AI companion chap, but there's also a penalty of up to a million dollars per child. If a social media company is found negligent and causing harm, still a high hill to get to these people. And signing the bills, Newsson took a victory lap for California saying we're going to lead the nation again. The bar is pretty damn low. Congress is not going to follow suit on this. Now I get there's a lot of criticisms of some of these parts of these bills. They don't go far enough. They go too far. They do this. But you know, this is a patchwork regulatory scheme, even if it's California. And so we need to have Congress, Mike Johnson, who is going to be a footnote. By the way, you won't have your job. If I came fucking Jeffries, you better get on this, like immediately, on the thing. Because first of all, people care about it. You're seeing them express it through data centers. We cannot have these companies making the rules for the rest of us. Let's just be dead fucking clear about that. One of the federal works. Never. Never. That ever worked. Never. The incentive. You know who changed that? Ralph fucking native by being an asshole. And that's great. We need that kind of, and that's what's coming for you people. You don't understand how much people hate you. And they feel it. They feel it in their bones. And so to stop playing antitrust games, stop playing trying to solidify by finding an opportunity when you are screwing us. You're always trying to find an opportunity these companies. Anyway, I'm going to stop. We have to move on. The hate's about the, popular hate's about the bubble up from data centers to these frontier to these frontier models. It's the same stuff. Well, you've really blown it, kids. Let me just say you've absolutely blown it. Anyway, let's get, though, on a quick break when we come back, Mark Carney's Power Move. Hey, what's up, guys? It's Babish. And on this week's episode of In The Booth, I'm joined by chef cookbook author and food network legend, Alex Gourna Shelley. We're talking about shops, the Hamptons, and what it takes to make a cry worthy pasta. You can listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Support for the show comes from Framer. Your website is the public face of your business, but that means any blemishes, typos, or ugly designs are showing up loudly and in high def, not exactly leaving a great first impression. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right, prompt, inspect, edit, publish in one place at a whole new pace. 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While Donald Trump has been busy stoking the flames of a trade war with Canada, Prime Minister Mark Carney, we love him. He's a handsome man. He's on the rebound working behind the scenes to pursue a relationship with the EU. He doesn't want to fully commit to Canada membership and is asking to be an associate member of the European Union. I love that. Just their going to date. Carney has reportedly been speaking the EU ahead of state about energy, AI, critical minerals, defense, even visa-free travel for Canadians. He's scheduled to address the European Parliament later this year and flush out his vision for how Canada would plug into its $21 trillion EU economy. What do you think? What do you think? You love Mr. Carney. So tell us. Yeah, I think he's going to be Timesman of the year. I think he's going to win a Nobel Prize. I think he defines forcefully and dignified. And I think he's decided -- I mean, effectively what you're going to have is -- and this is the opportunity for the next presidential candidate. I'd get out ahead of this. I would propose an alliance, not only a free trading zone, but a diplomatic alliance between all democracies. And Carney, what the EU is desperate for, is a leader with some power, because unfortunately, the whole is less than some of its parts, because what they have is 27 veto votes. Other than saying what they don't like, they're really -- it's very difficult for them to ban around any sort of serious economic or technology policy, because everyone has to say. And this is a big opportunity, in my opinion, for Canada, basically, to continue in an effective way to say no, that we're not going to be bullied. They have more in common right now with the EU than they have with the US. The US will be big losers here. We're under the impression that we can bully anybody. We're a third of the world's economy. We just can't do it. I'm talking about my lunches. I'm having lunch with a guy who runs $150 billion, and he always says, "Where's the alpha? Where are their ideas?" My best idea right now is the following. They're $750 billion, or three-quarters of a trillion dollars, of commerce. I think every one of those $750 billion is looking for a new provider of those services. And I'm going to say to this guy, "What European companies are posed to take a Canadian business away from America?" Should Mexico do the same thing? Absolutely. He used opportunity for Mexico. Quite frankly, I don't think it has the same -- that's the correct question and a great idea. I would think that with Karni trying to cuddle up to the Europeans, that if you're some Finnish manufacturer at ball bearings, and Canadian, whatever it is, paper companies are buying these ball bearings from a U.S. manufacturer in Minneapolis, I'd be like, "Hey, it's going to be a little bit more expensive, but we make pretty good ball bearings in Finland." I think there is so much into the detriment of American employees, factories, and shareholders. There is so much business that is now up for grabs. Can I just say Trump always says, "We don't need anyone." I'm like, "We need people." Like, "Why does he keep saying that?" What advice more from us than the EU or China? Why does he think we don't need anything? What is that mentality of, like, "We don't need them. We're bigger. We have no need. They need us." This is why we have such an idolatry for business people, and we ship host our bureaucrats and our diplomats. This is why you need someone who has worked in government as president, not a business person. Business people are used to kind of raw power and leverage an IP and go fast and break things. That's not how government works. Government is alliances in diplomacy and recognizing that if we can get two-thirds of the world to cooperate, we're going to win. That means giving. It doesn't mean dominating Canada. And you can't dominate. You can't actually look at those hoodie pictures. You can't acquire it. Right. You can. It's not an M&A transaction. It's not a real estate transaction. It's diplomacy and cooperation and recognizing in what is probably, we take for granted one of the greatest evolutions of mankind was people recognizing. It's not about conquest. It's about cooperation. That's how the sapiens beat the Neanderthals just so you know they were smaller. They were less strong. The Japanese used to, when an airman was shot out in the Pacific and he was sitting there and he was healthy, the Japanese used to kill that person in the sea. They were inhuman to our POWs. When they surrendered, we decided I know we're going to tax every American household and we're going to rebuild this amazing nation and culture and we turn them into allies. And markets and friends. And friends. Right. And what do we do to Canada? Oh, you've been a remarkable friend. You've hit our diplomats. You followed us into Afghanistan. We're going to fuck with you. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it Tim Snyder is coined it best. We are in the midst in witnessing superpower suicide. It is. It's true. But it's one man. It's one man with his attitudes and the rest of them go along with it. I mean, there's going to, there's a new book out by Jacob Weissberg essentially about cowards who are sticking with this. I think that's going to be it. Trump is Trump and he, well, I didn't go down badly in history, but the people around him, to me, who know better, are the ones that I think he is stuck in a, you know, that he thinks he's a good business person, which he hasn't been really overall, except by cheating. But the people around him and know better, that's the cycle. I'm really interested in talking about going forward after we read ourselves of this person. All right, let's go on a quick break. We come back. We'll check in on Mitch McConnell. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value and fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real. Lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day. But not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality. This isn't just a tagline, it's a commitment to your clients. It means top grade products across the board. 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They want something bigger themselves, lifestyles of priority. Motivation is being inspired. But regardless of how you feel about Gen Z, it's undeniable that they're changing national politics. Generation Z is increasingly showing less loyalty to traditional political parties. Many now more likely to identify as independent. So what is going on with the kids? I think the biggest misconception about Gen Z's politics right now is that all of a sudden they're all socialists. That is just not the case. Yeah. Yeah. They are embracing candidates who are offering new bold ideas in the absence of those ideas from establishment Democrats. This week on America actually, Gen Z researcher Rachel Jamfazza joins us to separate Gen Z fact versus fiction. It's not rocket science and this is, you know, I keep saying like, young voters aren't that complicated after all. It's pretty simple. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. What's up everybody? It's KM Hayward Steelers captain and host of notches football. We just sat down with Aaron Rodgers, four-time MVP, Super Bowl Champion, Future Hall of Famer for one of the most open and honest conversations we've ever had on the show. There was so much to get into. We had to split in the two parts. Part one is out right now, and trust me, you don't want to miss. Aaron gives us his real story behind coming back for one final season. We also talk about how he was ready to retire once Mike T stepped down and how reuniting with McCarthy changed everything. We get into playing with Mike T for one more year. This year squad, the old team narrative, who stood out this summer and what it's like to be in the quarterback. Aaron also opens up about what he still has left to accomplish this season and what it looks like when he hangs it up with it. And that's only part one. Part two drops this Thursday. That's when we go beyond football. The media, the conspiracy theories, what people still get wrong about Aaron Rodgers, his legacy, Super Bowl ring, the Goat, the Bay, and the overrated and underrated where things really get off limits. Part one is out right now. Part two drops this Thursday, September 10th. Watch notches football with Cam Hayward on YouTube or listen to Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Scott, we're back. And guess who else is Mitch McConnell has finally returned to the Senate after three months away. He came back in a wheelchair looking very frail, but told reporters he's there to finish the farm bill and keep backing Ukraine. He did not take questions. And again, did I say he looked frail? He shouldn't be there. McConnell was hospitalized in June after a fall spent time in a rehabilitation center and announced the statement, not any video back in August that he would continue his recovery at home. Meanwhile, McConnell has continued receiving his annual Senate salary of $174,000 during the absence. And of course, free health care. Look, as everyone knows, I'm an agent. So take this with a grain of salt. I don't wish him ill, but every point of data says the following. He's alive in the sense that his heart is still beating. And that is about it. My dad was alive for two years after he turned 93, but he wasn't there. And here's, in this goes again, to this larger thing I keep harping on about term limits and age gating. We age gate on the front end, we should age gate on the back end. The first thing that goes with cognitive decline is your ability to recognize your own cognitive decline. I believe that Senator Feinstein, who is an American hero in my mind. I believe until the day she died, she thought, nothing wrong with me. I'm fine. Scott, I'm seeing it in real time with my mom. Literally yesterday, she was like, I should go to New York and live by myself. And I said, if you can get out of that chair and walk out the door, you're welcome to it. And she, she, I could do it. I'm like, well, then do it. You know, it just, that's the kind of conversation. And literally she believes she can do it, even though she actually can't do it. It's an astonishing thing to watch. I have to say, it's so counter truthful, you know, but she believes it in a weird way. After my mom and dad got divorced, you know, a dad who wasn't very involved in my life would have to spend every other weekend with me. He had no fucking idea what to do with me, right? So after we saw every feasible movie that came out, we used to go go karting. They had these go kart tracks in the San Fernando Valley, which was, you know, that's a dream for a nine year old boy to go go karting. Oh, yeah. I would love going go karting. It's just today. It's a ton of fun. It's a ton of fun. And they had video games. And anyways, it was a ton of fun. When I took my father's driver's license from him when he was 84, which was a very uncomfortable thing for him, very upsetting. I was in the car with him and I thought, my dad's going to kill somebody. So I sat him down and I said, I need your driver's license. And he said, what are you talking about? And anyways, very uncomfortable moment. Three years later, I showed up one weekend and said, what do you want to do? And he's like, I know exactly what I said, it was his birthday. And he's like, we're doing, he's like, remember what we used to, he's like, let's go go karting. My dad thought he could go go karting three years after I took his driver's license from him. He was willing to get into go kart. And let me go to the other side. Joe Biden has metastatic prostate cancer. You know who gets metastatic prostate cancer? 82 year olds. We can have these people in these positions of this much power and consequence. Well, take it to Trump. Did you see the picture? Biden looked actually lively compared to Trump at that 9/11 thing. He was, this is where we disagree. I actually think Trump is more robust than you give him credit for because he sleeps on the stage. That's why because he sleeps in public. Did you see the contrast in how the wives hand in hand, looking adorningly, Laura Bush, looking at George Bush, like, oh, you little tiger. I mean, Michelle, Michelle and Barakra. Ivanka literally looks like, okay. Ivanka, it's in Melania. I'm sorry, Melania. Brody and Slip. Easy thing to make. She literally looks like, oh, God, how do I get away from this guy? How do I get away? And he was sleeping. That picture is like the love between these two is so, I'm saying, fine, he may be more robust, but he's too old. He's slept during the 9/11. Sure enough. Stop it. We're going to stack rank elderly people. They all suck. Well, that's the point. There will always be an example. There will always be a Nelson Mandela, right? My 15-year-old can draw it, but he's not allowed to get a driver's license. And if a 34-year-old Mamdani is not allowed to run for president, then Mitch McConnell or Charles Grassley or Diane Feinstein should not be allowed to serve at their age. Jesus. We have to have term limits. Scott and I are going to say this until the end of the fucking time. It's going to happen. We're going to make it happen. It's ridiculous. Mitch McConnell, please just go home and just rest. Or to minimum, if you're going to play baseball or you have to pass a physical, otherwise they don't have to sign your contract. I think every 12 months, an elected official has to pass physical, otherwise they don't. To be an airline pilot every year, my brother-in-law's father just passed away. Talk about an amazing life. He was a measure, he was a gunner, and an Emmy 109 measure Schmidt. When the war ended, they said, "Change into civilian clothes and be very clear. Ride your bike west." You want a surrender to the Americans, not the Russians. He ended up becoming this world-class physician, and one of the things he did later in life as a doctor in San Francisco was he was the guy that had to give pilot's physicals. If a pilot doesn't have the gross motor skills and the cognitive skills and the reflexes, they're like, "Sorry, you can't fly." See you later. But Mitch McConnell can decide how much money we're going to get. One of these people that was close to him said to me, "Well, we have to give him a dignity angle. We don't have to." He has his dignity if he leaves. You'd give them more dignity if you needed to retire in a 72. It makes it easier for them to leave. Yeah, my mother screamed at me yesterday about that, and I was like, "Okay, you're staying right." where you are. It doesn't really matter. Like, you're not tough. We're being very kind, actually, in doing that. Anyway, one more quick break will be back for wins and fails. Support for the show comes from Clavio. Let's set the scene. It's late. The team is tired. You've got a global launch coming up and your customer inbox is full. No worries, meet your new best friend, Clavio. With one prop, Clavio's AI agents build the whole campaign. The email's text, WhatsApp, all in your voice, and find your next sale before you do. And nothing goes out without your OK. Plus, Clavio answers those emails in every new one, still sounding like you. It does this because customer data marketing service analytics and AI agents live in one place. Clavio. Idea to launch, support handled one evening. Over 200,000 consumer brands have a best friend named Clavio. Go to K-L-A-V-I-Y-O dot com slash best friends. When you hear an old Motown song, do you ever think about just how good it makes you feel? Well, that was not an accident. I'm Will Anderson, and this week on My Music History Podcast, the Monday Music Club, we're diving into the early years of Motown Records and how they crafted hits with factory-level precision. With the help of Otis Williams from the legendary temptations, we walked through the entire creative process and history of the label, its founder Barry Gordy, and our favorite acts like the Supreme. So, if you've ever sung a long to Motown songs, and want to know more about the incredible people behind those timeless hits, check out this week's episode, just search for Monday Music Club right now, wherever you get your podcast. Here's a little preview of the episode. HDH had written the song, and it was ready to be recorded, but as Otis tells us, it was originally intended for someone else. Support for this show comes from Quince. Do you have a favorite thing in your closet? The thing you look forward to breaking out every year? Maybe it's your favorite sweater, the jeans that go with everything or the bag that goes wherever you do? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe, and that's exactly what Quince does so well. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and washable silk. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. It's also affordable to all of their items, or price 50-80% less than similar brands, plus they work directly with top factories cutting out the middlemen. That way, you're only paying for exceptional quality and not brand markup. I just got a set of not clothes, but Quince sheets. I was very surprised how soft they were. They're made of organic cotton. They feel expensive and they aren't, and that's what I liked about them. No scratchiness. I slept like a baby in them, and I was really happy, and I'm going to buy more sets because they're some of the best sheets I have slept on. Find the fall pieces. You'll reach for most at Quince, download the Quince app for app exclusive offers. You go to quince.com/pivot, get free shipping on your order, and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash pivot. Okay, Scott, wins and fails. I'm going to go first. Yes. My fail is this pro-publica report that Russian oligarch paid for Donald Trump Jr.'s wedding. These people have no fucking limits, these people. Umar Kremlev, who is apparently close to Vladimir Putin, kicked in hundreds of thousands of dollars in wedding expenses. These people have no limit to their corruption. This is insane. I mean, like Hunter Biden gets in trouble for a laptop and a painting and some dumb Ukraine. It's stupid, and I agree, corrupt, but this is astonishing. Paying for the president's son's wedding from a Kremlin oligarch that is close to Putin, it just seems to me we have well-passed anything that even the smell test here. It stinks to high heaven. That was just, I love pro-publica. They're doing God's work. I have to give them, they've broken lots of stories. By the way, so is the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal recently. Amazingly good stories about corruption, everything else, and also the New York Times, but this week, particularly the Washington Post and this and the Wall Street Journal. My win, of course, is practical magic too. I haven't seen it yet, but it did kill it at the box office. 46 million dollars as a Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman. I am an enormous practical magic fan. It didn't do well when it came out, but it's since become like Hocus Pocus, a very popular movie, especially among millennial straight ladies, which I am not, but they love it. I love this movie, and I actually, first, I am puning my beautiful wife by saying, of course, she wouldn't have seen it, because she's a movie snob. She and I watched it on Saturday, because we're going to go to see practical magic on, because another friend of ours that I love, practical magic. And we watched it, and she thought it was delightful, and it is. It holds up rather well. Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, especially Nicole Kidman, is very funny. They've made a remake. It's doing incredibly well. They're doing a great job on social media. It was originally directed by Griffin Dunn, who I have a lot of regard for. I don't know who the director is this time, but amazingly thrilled that this did so well and showed, once again, certain things can have a renaissance. There's a lot of these movies like this that are coming back and making apparently a very good movie. So, congratulations to Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman and practical magic, too. Good job. You're killing it at the box office. Anyway, that's my. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. The like, this irreverent, lighthearted 90s cult classic, where the, where the Owens family curse is, imagine your ultimate defense mechanism against bad relationships with a man is literal death sentence for the guy. They die. I mean, they die. It's really good. Oh my god. Aiden Quinn was in it. What happened to him? He was that is the ultimate in ghosting. I know. It's aha. Oh, it's so adorable. Oh, it was such a good movie. A man I loved it. I just want to say I'm glad you're happy with it. Oh my god. Come on. It's such a movie that you would be so awkward during I would imagine. They're so cute with a coconut and stalker chinning. And by the way, Diane Weist or back again. Amazing. She is. She's one of the best characters in one of my favorite movies, Hannah and her sisters. I'm so excited to say I'm, we have a whole group of ladies going out to see it next Saturday night. And we're very excited. And one of my favorite movies, Hannah and her sisters. I didn't love Hannah and her sisters. I didn't know what? No, I didn't. Oh, you got to see it again. I'm not a Woody Allen. Michael Cain, Barbara. I love, I love all those actors. Me and Sarah. I love all those actors. I wasn't. And the only thing that made me laugh is one. Remember when we were talking about this with someone else. Remember when you went into like the blockbuster or the video store, there was always a porn section. Right. I would know about that. Yeah, there's always a point where my favorite thing was wandering into the one in DC when DuPont Circle. And it was an old store, one of those old timey stores, not the blockbusters too. And it wandered into the porn section. And there was a movie right there called "Hand of Desert Sisters." Best porn game ever except for Ramboan. Anyway. By the way, Cara, just FYI, nobody wanders into the porn section. There's signs everywhere. No one acts. Hey, how do I end up here? That's like my, yeah, that's like catching your son on a porn site. Yeah, it just happened. I love that porn section. That was such a good thing. It used to be so much better that you had to go into somewhere. Yeah, I don't know. Trust me on this one, Cara. It's got pretty good. I know, but like going in is the whole thing. The whole, anyway. Okay. Wind and fail, please. Okay. So my wind, my wind is Newsom's child safety laws. He signed more. Governor Newsom signed more than a dozen online child safety bills Thursday, which is likely the strongest package of protections for young users in history. AB 1709, bar social media platforms from offering addictive features, infinite scroll auto play video to users under 16. It's the first law of its kind in the nation. SB 1119 requires AI companion chatbot operators to assess the risks of their products post to children, document what they find, and hand the results to an independent auditor. It also requires age eradication, limits minors exposure to inappropriate content, and restrict AI companies from advertising to kids. It's known as Adams Law, named for Adam Ray in a California teenager who allegedly committed suicide after receiving directions on how to do so from chat GPT. Whenever I'm giving advice to young people or professional advice about I really want to get promoted, I mean, the way you get promoted is you start doing the job and you make it just easy. So all they have to do is change your title and compensation. There's no risk to promote you because you're already doing the job. In my view, and I'll get shit, and I'll be a people call me by whatever, Governor Newsom is already acting like a president. These policies should have been implemented at a federal level. And there's a huge void, and he's filling it. And imagine how hard it is for the governor of California when the reason you've begun from being the fifth largest economy in the world to the fourth largest is in no small part because of tech, and he's the one regulating them. It would have been much easier for the governors of Mississippi or of Kansas to pass this legislation because they don't have economically or politically well-connected corporations pushing back on him. And yet he got the is done. This is a big win. And this will be potentially a model for much needed overdue federal legislation. Anyways, my win are this package of online safety bills from Governor Newsom in California. And my fail is essentially, I mean, we've built a trillion dollar industry that is now grading its own homework. Dario Amode, the guy running Anthropic, has said publicly, don't trust the industry itself to self-regulate. He's headed himself. Sam Altman is telling Fortune it's too risky to take open AI at public right now. When the people who are building and would benefit most from this rocket are telling you not to get in it, it's not fear-mongering. That's data. I mean, this feels pretty serious. We didn't let Boeing certify its own planes or Pfizer approve its own drugs. We built the FAA and the FDA. It's time for the AIA, the artificial intelligence agency, before Congress has answered, or Mike Johnson or Speaker Johnson's answer, to what do we do is just let's schedule a meeting. This is an enormous failure of governance. The job of government is to prevent the public from a tragedy of the comments, while also balancing that with economic growth. We have aired so far to the side of economic growth that even the actors who stand to benefit most economically are saying, "Okay, mom and dad, you probably do need to set a bedtime for me. I probably do need to be reminded to eat." You know, this is gone. There's such a void that CDC needs to be embedded in these organizations. When you have corruption, I think the corruption here is bad. I think it's a terrible example. I think what's even worse is the incompetence. And I've said this. This is a mob family running the government. That's the bad news. The worst news is that Michael is running the GRIFT. Some of the GRIFT is actually quite elegant. I respect it in a weird way. Frato is running the government. The level of incompetence and the lack of any sort of long-term thinking or ability to understand technology or diplomacy or that the hole is greater than the sum of its parts with our allies, how economically stupid and damaging tariffs are. And now, to totally ignore the existential risk, thinking if we ignore the existential risk, the economy will grow faster. No. At some point, these companies are now incredibly vulnerable to anything happening because the view is no one's home. There's no prison guards here. Yeah. I think you're not worried about AI as much as surviving Donald Trump's incompetence. That's a good way to put it. That's what I'm most worried about. Excellent ones. I feel you're absolutely right about this. We'll see what happens. By the way, it's always in their self interest. They will take an advantage no matter where they are. Including trying to squash competitors. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot. Just a minute question for the shower called 85551Pivot. Okay, that's the show. Our second show is coming back. I'm so excited he's back. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show is produced by Larry Neymann, Zoe Marcus Taylor Griffin, Todd Wiseman and Christine Driscoll earning an inside-entered day episode. Thanks, Salsa did you grow as Mr. Vera and Dan Shalon. You shot Kura as Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. From Vox Media, we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.