AI Just Unlocked Crypto’s Infinity Glitch! | Raoul Pal

- The TAM of crypto has gone to infinity and people don't understand it. AI is the most powerful technology we've ever discovered. We're now putting electricity through sand and generating superintelligence. It's fucking bananas. This new wave of digital immigrants, AI, and robots. And then in five years' time, there's billions of economic Asians who are transacting and doing economic activity. The agentic economy needs a coordination layer for value. Blockchains really aren't built for humans in the end when you look at it. Whole economic coordination for the new internet, blockchain is pretty well suited for it. Once you have an agent acting on your behalf, you need it. You can't do it without it. Eventually, we'll have Asians building their own businesses, using crypto markets to raise capital, and we won't even see it, but the largest marketplace in history won't be companies. It'll be data that agents will be going and buying. If you lose this race, or even if you lose just a few months in this race, you're never catching up. Not any of you never catching up. You've lost control over the planet and beyond. It's a whole new world that's coming. It's a whole new hidden economy that's coming. By about 2030, when we get to this point of the economic singularity, I think that's when it starts to get just a bit fucking weird. How does this end? The answer here is going to be. - Okay, so without any further ado, I'm gonna get Raoul on the show. Raoul, good to see you, my friend. - Always good to see you. - Especially in the beginning of the bull market. I think now everyone's convinced finally that we're in the bull market. It was quite a road to get everyone to believe the bull market had finally started. I think now everyone believes we're in a bull market. I think that the thing that people are not united by is what's actually gonna drive this bull market. That's what I think people aren't united by. And I read this- - Also, because we're all convinced, we have to have a leverage flush out first, right? At some point soon, we'll have to have a quick leverage flush, and then we can really get going. - You know, this is one of the. I think this is going back to that. I think this is one of those bull markets that actually fooled everybody. Because everybody was waiting for that end of the four-year cycle and that one last dip. I think a lot of people were fooled and didn't catch the way up. And now you've got a whole lot of. A lot of them were waiting and waiting and waiting on the sidelines. And now you've got this whole like firmer bind, which I kind of think was the reason for getting this next shift up. - I never believed that this was a full cycle. I still maintain that this was a mid-cycle fall and not a full cycle. And it was more akin to 2019, 2020, where we then fell and then started from there. - Why do you think Bitcoin lagged? Like things like the NASDAQ and risk assets and stuff like that. What do you think the reason why they were going up and they were all getting fueled by the AI pump and Bitcoin was kind of like moving sideways, not doing anything. In fact, if you look at the chart here, from February all the way to August, we did nothing. So two things, obviously 10, 10 broke something, right? Something happened within that that we never really found out. But after that, it was really a matter of liquidity was not enough. So liquidity has been growing in the US, but it hasn't been super strong. So if you look at excess liquidity, liquidity growth in excess of GDP growth, it's barely been positive. And most of the time it's been slightly negative, which means you don't have more speculative capital. So you had one thing to fund, which was the AI and there wasn't enough capital for anything else. So now what we've seen is AI is paused and crypto is gone because there's still not excess liquidity around. So once you get all the liquidity spigots open, we've had a bloody Iran war. We've had the dollar rallying. We've had rates going up. We've had the government shutdowns. We've had one thing after another. So that's why liquidity has not been there in full force. So now we've got a rotation, but the next phase has to be more liquidity. And then everything can go up. There's so much to unpack there. I think the first thing I want to unpack with you is I read this, which I think you wrote a couple of days ago. It says demographics are destiny. And the part that that really got me was when you talk about the magic formula and the magic formula is GDP growth equals to population growth plus productivity growth plus debt growth. OK, and then you look at the US's population growth. And I mean, the charts don't really look great. So this is a by the way, that's the charts of the US population in 1880. That's the 1920s and that's 2020. So the US population growth isn't going to do it any favors. Walk me through then how how we trade out of this basically if the if the demographics are broken. So this whole thing is the everything code. That's my the book that's coming out. We'll mention it later. It's all about this. This is the everything code, which was realizing that demographics broke the world because of this aging population in the US. All of Europe, every Western developed nation. South Korea, Japan, everywhere, China, and what's happened is they've increased debt to paper over the rates of growth. Then in 20 in 2008, the world blew up. And so we got stuck in this quagmire where the only way around it was printing of money. So that was what's been paying for the debt. And we all know about this now, the debasement trade and the reason being because there's not enough GDP growth to fund the debt. So generally, how do you get out of this? Go on. So generally, when you have GDP growth, it means that people are paying more taxes and therefore you can fund all the debt. Basically, that's basically the theory behind it. But if you don't have the people, then you need to fund it some other way, right? There's that. But also, don't forget the private sectors in debt as well. So how do you get the investment for the private sector debt? It needs to come from economic activity. So GDP needs to be growing strongly enough now. The problem is. The trend rate of GDP in the US is about 2%. Government debt is over 100% of GDP. The private sector is over 100% of GDP. So with interest rates at 4% or wherever they are, 5%, depending which part of the curve, there's not enough economic activity to fund it. So the rest basically gets printed by either the banking system or the central bank. OK, so how do you I mean, so right now we're in the position where basically there's debt growth to fund essentially the lack of the lack of the lack of growth in GDP. Correct. How does this end? I mean, where does this where do you go from here? So this keeps going for a while until we have a change in the formula. Now, the answer here is going to be replacing population. I mean, the answer is going to be replacing population or adding population to this new population that's just arriving this new wave of digital immigrants, AI and robots. This is adding to the intelligence workforce in infinite numbers, and they're infinitely more productive. So right now there's whatever eight and a half billion humans and there's probably economic agents. You know, if you look at the X 402 payments, it's not that big yet. Tiny. But if you look at the X 402 payments, it's not that big yet. Tiny. An economy that grows faster, inflation that falls, and productivity that picks up. So if you listen to people like Elon, and I agree with this framing, and others, you could eventually get to a point where GDP grows at 20%, 30%. It's all possible once you put enough robots and AI into the workforce. And that's bizarre because a lot of this is an invisible economy. Companies transact doing stuff that we don't see. They don't need to go onto websites that we deal with. They do it via APIs and MCPs and all of this stuff. So it's a whole new world that's coming. So walk me through what Scott Beston is doing at the moment. He's trying to force the long rate of the curve down. I'm not really sure how successful it is. I know that I think you worked with him at some point, so maybe you'd have some more insight as to exactly what he's trying to do in the interim. Yeah. I mean, I've known him for 20-something years. And he was a Global Macro Investor subscriber for many years as well. And I knew him from his Soros days and after. And he's a macro guy. So he speaks our language. We know Dan Tapiero, myself, and a few of the old macro heads. We all know him. So what is the game? Scott Beston is a bond salesman. That's his job. He has to sell US government bonds to people. Yeah. Yeah. What he doesn't want them to do is sell them too expensively. But he needs to sell a shit ton of them. So what he's done is he's trying to slow down the increase in rates because there's somebody else trying to sell a load of bonds as well, which is all the hyperscalers who are funding the CapEx build out. So you've got this competition for capital. There's not enough capital. So he wants to slow that rate down. He's not going to stand in the way like the Japanese did and say, it's not moving. Yeah. He may do. But don't forget, we've got the largest ever CTA short position in the history of the bond market. The kindling is there for a big, sharp reversal. But Scott Beston is now going round to-- firstly, he went to see the Japanese and the South Koreans. And he gave a swap line to the Middle East. So what was he doing? So the euro dollar market, which is the offshore dollar market, is run out of Japanese banks, South Korean banks. And increasingly out of the UAE. And he basically said, I will give you whatever you need to add liquidity to the system. Then he went to China. And the subcontext of the story of China is, listen, we need a weaker dollar. You need a weaker dollar. When our dollar weakens, you buy US government bonds, which is how it always works. And the Chinese are 50% of their corporate sector is in debt in dollars. So they need dollars. So Scott Beston's got the dollars. He's gone to all of the actual people who give them the dollars and said, make sure these guys have the dollars. And he's gone as part of the negotiations to say, right, let's sort this out. You need the dollars. Let's do a trade deal. In all of that, I'm going to weaken the dollar, the US dollar. And you are going to buy our bonds. Don't forget, Scott Beston, yesterday, on Sunday, met again with the Chinese. And he's the Treasury Secretary. He's not just talking about AI. He's talking about trade and the dollar, because it's the most important macro instrument there is. So that's the game here, is I think it's to get the dollar weaker. Now it didn't help that rates backed up after the CPI number and oil prices went higher again. They need to clear this Iran situation off the deck as well. But then we're kind of setting ourselves up where we could see a dramatic move in rates. Because everybody's one way. If the Iran situation gets solved quickly, then the oil price becomes less of an issue. The year on year rate of change of CPI falls because of oil anyway. And they try and weaken the dollar. So there's some real kindling. And that is the liquidity increase that we want to see for crypto. Because at the head of it all is financial conditions. And the dollar is the daddy of all of that. So if you start weakening the dollar, everybody's going to be weak. Everybody wins. So were you surprised when Kevin Walsh increased rates at the last FOMC? No, I didn't think he should have. But he needs to win the political battle that he's independent. But he, when you listen to him, he is a big believer in this productivity boom. This is his whole game. And it's happened in the US in recent memory, because that was the internet. When Alan Greenspan was the head of the Federal Reserve, what Alan Greenspan did was nothing. CPI was a bit hot. Core CPI was not, same as it is today. And Greenspan said productivity is going to carry it, and we won't increase core CPI. And he was right. So we had this massive economic boom. And Walsh is saying the same thing. He's like, I want to have a productivity workforce because we don't measure it properly. I want a CPI workforce because we don't measure it properly. And he's like, I want to have a productivity workforce because we don't measure it properly. yeah and then that would be the liquidity if we start seeing dxy breaking down back towards the lows and beyond okay the game is really on so every time you see liquidity every time you see the dollar fall that's when you get the crypto bull markets it's always the same talk to me about the ai build and i read this and you why the build can't stop which is kind of a we're not not going to say a contrarian opinion but there's a big school of thought that basically says that ai is a bubble and a lot of people are waiting for the ai bubble to to to burst you mentioned that this is one of your one of the reasons why you think we're going to get a whole lot of liquidity walk me through what your thesis is here around why this thing doesn't stop ai is the most powerful technology we've ever discovered it is the big one we've just created intelligence not only that all intelligence that we were able to understand and measure was always generated on carbon substrate humans animals plants everything that generates some form of intelligence we've now jumped substrates to silicon and it's a million times faster which is why we're in shock with how fast this is moving the substrate of intelligence we're now putting electricity through sand and generating super intelligence it's fucking bananas but this race is so big that nobody can be allowed to lose and now i'm talking about the race between china and the u.s imagine a world where china would win this race because the u.s is slowed down by regulation or whatever it is well then china because it compounds in the rate of intelligence per joule of energy is compounding was it's doubling every 4.2 months sure so if you're out of the game for a bit and china's still accelerating you're three years behind you can never ever catch up so what you end up is one nation state or sovereign state with the most powerful technology the world has ever seen it cannot be allowed and it can't happen that the u.s has it either because that's not a balanced world either so you by game theory definition both have to accelerate and they can't cannot stop because even if they say the other is going to stop they won't stop because the game is too big to lose so nobody can win it and nobody can lose it nobody can afford to lose it but that same thing is happening with the frontier labs they're like oh you must regulate us blah blah blah the the game is too big to lose they must accelerate they must spend all of the money every country every lab everybody must spend everything on this because it's the biggest race of all time if you lose this right if you lose this race or even if you lose just a few months in this race you're never catching up not any of you not never catching up you've lost control over the planet and beyond i mean this is the single most powerful technology the world has ever had could ever imagine an infinite intelligence that is smarter than humans so this game can't stop now will can somebody go bust for sure can somebody make a mistake in the game of course but then play that thing through is everyone's like oh my god everything's gonna collapse it might do for a very short period of time but let's say anthropic goes bust what happens to their compute the next day microsoft google you name it would buy it right so we're not talking about assets that are lying there unused we're talking about assets that will immediately get snapped up now if google would buy all that compute they would double their output of intelligence and we're going to have to buy it and win the game so the us government can't even allow that to happen they'd have to auction it now what's also weird about this game is unlike any other game there is infinite demand the demand for intelligence is literally infinite the more you produce the more people want jvon's paradox just plays out now now even with the cheap chinese models the frontier models are holding margin because there's everybody wants all of it as much as you can possibly make so there is no problem of no demand which was what was happening with fiber optics global crossing and internet stuff back in the 90s they were building stuff before like we did in crypto we built more blockchain than we ever needed block space than we ever needed and it takes time to catch up and a bunch go bust in this we've got the opposite they cannot build enough of this stuff they can't buy enough chips they can't manufacture enough in the fabs in taiwan and then when they bring them to the us they can't get the permits for the electricity or put up the buildings fast enough which is why elon's circumventing it by bringing in solar and then he bought that um mobile gas turbine business so he can ramp up this stuff earlier than others but this is the problem this is where they're buying nuclear power plants they can't build this stuff fast enough and so that's the issue it's not the lack of demand oh have i overbuilt we've under built everything massively so it's a very unique situation and it's not going to stop so i'm saying like you and i have been around for a couple of super cycles and i think the internet was a good example but in the internet we had a lot more bandwidth than we had anything to do with i think this is the exact opposite this is a a case of this there's just so much demand that we can we can never supply it we won't be able to supply it and whatever whatever we are able to supply will be snapped up and used productively which was very different from the internet well if you look at productivity to understand it the biggest adopters of this technology are the technology companies themselves they stopped hiring three years ago so the revenue per employee at meta has doubled and that's a big company at nvidia it's gone from 2 million to 10 million per employee it's happening at every one of these amazon they're all going like this vertically in terms of revenue per employee so it is incredibly productive we just don't measure it in productivity properly yet um so it's fascinating the other fascinating one is you take if you say well what could this do to the us economy that productivity number in that magic formula well the answer is look at amazon they're the size of a country and they started investing in this stuff back in 2019 and you saw their margins collapse because they started spending money on robotics and all of this stuff coming out the other side they've now got by next year more robots than humans working at amazon they have drones self-driving cars they have so they've got the whole robotics ai plus the data centers they've got all of that funded by you and i buying toilet roll online you know it's extraordinary business um but their productivity i.e their margins have just gone up all the time and that's exactly what's going to happen to the us economy and other economies once they implement ai enough scale and speed like if you were to estimate what us gdp is going to do in like the next 10 years like like what how big do you think the you can't you can't so you don't know because everything the issue is is we're in crypto we're kind of used to metcalfe's law and logarithmic charts right we can kind of deal with that um but this is all happening at metcalfe's law squared reed's law it's a double exponent law it's a double exponent it doesn't exist in nature right this is the fastest thing we've ever witnessed in terms of adoption of anything so i have no idea what the world's going to look like nor do you we had no idea that the beginning of the year agents would be announced and then i don't know how many agents there are in existence right now but it's billions and we don't even know you can't even see them and that's gone from zero so that the rate of this is truly astonishing so when you say what what happens to the us economy i don't know i know pretty much in no i can't even forecast this in a year the economy side well a lot of companies are slow people are slow to adopt it we've seen that there's a whole long tail of stuff so by about 2030 when we get to this point of the economic singularity i think that's when it starts to get just a bit weird but i mean do you think like we'll have a year where we have a 25 gdp growth like do you think yeah yeah for sure for sure in the somewhere in the 2030 30 early 2030s will be like 20 gdp growth but then wages won't have gone up and you're like well who's making the money here and yeah some of these corporates will but a lot of it's the hidden economy the agentic economy and he won't see it it's an invisible economy that's going to be larger than the physical economy over time because it's infinite by nature and that's what i talk about with crypto as well is like the tam of crypto has gone to infinity and people don't understand it everything has gone to infinity now yes i'm actually looking for a tweet where you spoke about the tam of crypto going to infinity i think most people can't comprehend that the tam in in crypto is is is growing so much maybe break down why you think the tam why crypto is the custodian or the beneficiary of this of this tam of this totally addressable market the agents the agentic economy economy needs a coordination layer for value and identity and other things blockchains really aren't built for humans in the end when you look at it it is the new ability for the internet to run itself with some accountability a ledger system and all of that it's kind of made for this whole thing that's happening so agents being sort of semi-autonomous they come with costs you you run agents it costs electricity and compute so they have to pay for goods and services electricity and compute but they also might be first acting on your behalf so ran asked his agent to go and plug into his wallet and trade some stuff do whatever fine but sooner or later ran will say hey build me a business in this and off it goes it's now acting semi-autonomously under your guidance but eventually we'll have agents building their own businesses using crypto markets to raise capital we've seen that with meme coins you can coalesce capital really fast in crypto so it can find an idea raise capital for it exploit the idea close the business you can't do that regularly so this velocity happens fast but also the payments so if you start to see the speed of payments again carbon we're slow silicon very fast what we've built is for carbon it's for humans we even close on weekends i mean this is a different order of magnitude fast so you need fast blockchains fast throughput for them to be able to make micro transactions instantaneously at scale so there's that level then there is the sort of data layer of everything that you know in an agent economy what you want is some provenance and you want to have the authority for an agent to be able to do something well really you need id for that and you need some sort of system that does that now blockchain does that very well smart contracts effectively smart contract it's a smart contract so ai needs to have an id that says it's allowed to do this or not allowed to do this so then you've got all of this so basically the whole economic coordination for the new internet blockchain is pretty well suited for it um also in the end what is it that these got these agents consume what are all the ai companies consume what does ai consume at scale it runs on well it runs on fuel but what it actually consumes its business is consuming data data all of that is going to get monetized all data and we won't even see it but the largest marketplace in history won't be companies it'll be data that agents will be going and buying packets of data i can buy this data that data that kind of stuff that's all coming as well so you know data is it easier to put on chain maybe better maybe secure uh maybe better authentication systems so yeah these things are joined to the hip that it almost can't exist without it the agentic side yeah we can all use ai and never even need blockchain but once you have an agent acting on your behalf you need it you can't do it without it so that's that scales stable coins as well beyond what we understand and the velocity of money that happens because these things move like lightning speed so you've got velocity of money going across blockchain rails spreading the us dollars at every corner of the planet it's like it's what time to be alive rand this is unbelievable i agree with you and really that's my thesis i'm wondering if you believe though that scott besant and kevin wash have this as their master plan the reason i say that is it was there was the genius act and they passed the genius act first they rushed to pass the genius act so they could get dominance in stablecoin do you think that they were thinking this far forward oh yeah scott boston completely understood what sable coins were they were an ability so if you think about how government debt is sold it is sold to institutions and they invest in it what he's done is put a dollar wrapper on it so then there's the euro dollar market which is dollars abroad and what he's done is kind of said okay at that if you're let's say you're in um somewhere we don't get access to the dollar so easily call it zimbabwe right so you're in zimbabwe it's difficult to get access to the dollars so okay you don't have any part of that euro dollar market you can't go into your bank and get many dollars it's not easy now the dollar goes to the individual via stablecoin but it's a wrapper holding bonds so the more dollars they sell to individuals around the world the eight and a half billion individuals the more bonds they can sell because they wrap bonds so i know they see this now but do you think this was part of their master plan like do you think they sat down and said hold on guys there's an ai revolution there's these blockchain rails we've got to get the genius no it didn't it didn't need the ai it needed just the stable coins first so besant saw that it's like i can sell these infinite bonds which is why he's saying it's gonna be a three trillion dollar market in stable coins he's just going how many bonds do i need to sell we'll make it three trillion because we need to deregulate this and get the dollar out there then ai comes along and these guys aren't stupid they can see what's going on it's like okay now we might have an infinite time for the us dollar if we don't screw this up okay that's pretty interesting and then what they've just done is tokenized equities what does that do that does the same trick so you're in south africa it's not easy to buy us equities for the average person now anybody with a crypto account which is everybody can do it and so now you've suddenly opened the us capital markets both at bond level and at stock level to every person on the planet so you've got to win so you have to i mean you have to win because because if you do win then all the money flows into your markets that's basically what you're saying that's right that's the game and you control the world economic system the us does anyway right it does i mean 87 percent of all world traders in u.s dollars but this is a very clear way of doing it but they buy themselves another cycle by doing this they're buying themselves another cycle absolutely so the game is and you're exactly right point to say this game is print money find people to buy the bonds keep this going wait for the ai and the robots to come let productivity take it over job done sure and i think they're going to do it because debating the currency is the evil anyway they've been doing that but they're never going to go bust because it's the world's reserve currency you said in the last cycle you said don't this up your whole thing was don't this up and i think now the message to the us government is like it's so it's it's basically the balls in your court it's everything set up for you just don't this up that's basically where they're at at the moment yeah now can they it up yeah well you can see iran could have gone really well and they could have resolved it fast the oil price would be at 30 for the rest of history instead we're still with oil at 100 bucks and a mess again so yeah they have a good propensity to things up um but it's the game is there to be played um and it's pretty clear and you've got the right players in place uh but let's see because you've got to get to a midterm election and then things get more difficult to do so now that you like we spoken we brought it back to crypto and you talk about crypto investments how does how does your crypto investment thesis differ from say last cycle i must be honest last cycle when i invested it wasn't as ai centric um you know so like i bought like i must say a lot of zcash and i bought zcash not because i thought that ai agents were going to use zcash i just thought it it's probably a nicer version of bitcoin because it has privacy right but i'm wondering with if this is your thesis how does that flow into your crypto investment thesis what do you land up buying do you still end up buying ethereum do you still end up buying suey do you still end up buying bitcoin like i'm trying to understand whether how this filters into an investment thesis i i generally like to be a i make it as easy as possible for myself okay right how do you capture this new economy well it's simply the layer ones it's the big useful fast layer ones that have economic density so stuff that matters right now and so you settle with ethereum solana suey then you've got you know special purpose stuff you know whether it's near or whatever but you've got very few maybe avalanches in that mix you you've got very few actual blockchains that matter at layer one level so you use the layer ones because economic activity is going to go on to these so over time it's going to increase now if you wanted to get clever about it then you're trying to figure out what is the applications layer version of this you know how are agents going to use d5 you know is that going to pick up probably is um you know whatever component parts you're looking at but i just keep it simple i can just hold the layer ones they're never going to go bust they're just going to continue growing over time if they continue to adapt to this new world and look at solana get faster cheaper suey faster cheaper and they keep working on that technology because what what always works in technology is the cheaper and more efficient is the more it gets used i mean we can have the paradox again we're going to have this discussion again i think we're going to have a discussion on your channel in a couple of days and i think we never discussed discussion around layer one so i think i've got a a slightly different view um i'm wondering your take on things like zcash for example like i know you were a big bitcoin man you got I own Zcash, and I managed to buy it recently at 300 and something bucks. So I've done decently well in it. The thesis is very clean, very simple, makes sense to me. Is it a replacement for Bitcoin? That's probably not a replacement. It's just, you know, that whole idea of could it be 10% of Bitcoin's market? Yeah, that makes total sense. And it's a very simple trade. And those simple trades are easy narratives that you can tell your brother, you can tell the mate in the pub, oh, it's a private version of Bitcoin. But what's interesting on the smart contract side, everyone's building privacy as well. So privacy is a big thing. One is government-resistant privacy, and the other one is government-sanctioned privacy. Okay, so like your portfolio today, is it Bitcoin, Layer 1s, and a little bit of Zcash? Because I know you don't delve really deep into the altcoins. And I know every time you have, I think you admitted that every time you've gone lower, you burn your fingers. Yeah. Just keep it simple, stupid. So I'm still in the same Layer 1s. I have Ethereum, Solana, SWE, I have a bit of Zcash, and that's literally it. And all I've done this year is trade three times. I added to SWE, Ethereum. And Solana early in the year when we had the sell-off. And then I added again in June. And that's it. And I bought some Zcash. That's my entire trading activity. And then the other side of I've been building that big digital art portfolio, which is ETH. And that's it. I don't do anything else. While everyone else is running around trying to do that, I just wait for the sell-off, add more, and just say, well, adoption is going to keep doing this over time. It's fine. So I need to ask you a question, which is maybe zoomed out from crypto. And that is. Say you've got a high net worth individual. And I'm going to define for this conversation a high net worth individual, someone who's got $20 million plus. OK, just for the purposes. You know, let's actually make it a little bit. I think that the banks say an ultra high net worth individual is $30 million plus. There's someone who's got $20, $30 million plus. Where would you recommend this person put their money? Or how would you recommend this person split their money? Well, it depends on their risk tolerance, what they're trying to achieve out of it, all of that stuff. But let's assume they're 40 to 50 years old. Let's assume that they've got a reasonable risk tolerance because, you know, they're still working and still active and still accruing. I'm trying to understand, would you put 10% or 30% into crypto? Would you put 10% or 30% into real estate? Would you put 50% into stock markets? Again, it just depends. You know, if you've got a big, stable income and you don't care about volatility, that's a different answer than, this is my nest egg, this is it, I can't fuck this up. It's very different, right? So, if you're. If you can't fuck this up, how would you allocate the money? It's all risk. For me, it's like, it's just technology, stocks, and crypto. My real estate is my lifestyle. That's my bank. You know, the lifestyle bank is what you do all this for. That's why you have these sleepless nights over fucking crypto prices and exchanges blowing up and all of that stuff. It's so you can live a nice life. So, when you. So, that's how I think of it. When you accumulate real estate, is it for personal use or is it as an investment? Do you ever accumulate real estate only for personal use? I have done it for investment every time I've lost money. And it's a pain in the ass. And so, I'm just like, no, I'm not doing any of that. I'm not doing any of that. It's so much easier to do nothing. You know why I laugh? Because I've lost so much money in investment properties. And I've made so much money in the properties that I actually live in. It's like, it's bizarre. I've always invested in real estate. And I've always lost money in my real estate investments. And I've never invested in my houses and my abodes. And I've always made money on them. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so, yeah. But different people, different risk tolerances, different ways of doing things. But yeah. Would you take a punt on something like TLT, which is like the long end of the curve? Would you take a punt that Scott Besant actually gets us right and that rates drop dramatically? I think this is probably a good trade there. Will I do it? No, I've given up that kind of trading now. I just, we're in the biggest secular trend of all time in this kind of technology, crypto, everything code thing. Why fuck around? That's just, you just do that for ego flattering is look how right I was in that trade. Now, I do think it's a good trade. And you can make some money. If you do it with some sort of longer dated call options, you probably can make some real money out of that trade. But I just stopped doing that stuff now. But you're kind of saying like. If you're in this big AI cycle and there's two technology sectors that are going to capture it, one being the Nasdaq or the tech stocks or some Nasdaq or similar. And the other one being crypto, just put your money in the Nasdaq and crypto and forget about all the ego, the ego, the ego stroking trades. You know, honestly, Iran, that advice, it hurts most people, including me, but you don't have to do any. Really, you could have just bought. You didn't even have to buy layer ones. You just had to buy Bitcoin, Nasdaq and do nothing. For 20 years. And you've been infinitely wealthy and you've had zero stress. But no, we take the hard way. Oh, should I switch into this? And this is it. Are they into Uniswap? And it's like, what the fuck? Really? All you had to do was one trade was by the barbell. Look, I'm not going to say I'm not going to say too much. I'm sorry. There's a call coming in. I'm not going to say too much, but I'm going to say the following. When I got into Bitcoin, Bitcoin was at about 400, 500 dollars. A coin and I bought some Bitcoin. But over the years, I've messed around with a lot of other things. Now, just to break even on the Bitcoin, it's about 170 X. Okay. Now, I want to say that I'm not sure that I have 170 X what I initially put down in crypto. And if I just left it in Bitcoin, I would have been 170 X richer. So I think that kind of tells the whole story. It does. And I've gone through the maths in this is actually really hard to outperform. It's very hard to be a. Stock picker and outperform the Nasdaq. It's really hard to outperform that barbell of the two growth assets and just do nothing. Although I do think that this next cycle is going to be an old coin driven cycle, not a Bitcoin driven cycle. And that's maybe a discussion which we're going to leave because I'm going to have a discussion on your channel. But I think that we're going to do role. I'm very cognizant. I don't disagree either. I own very little Bitcoin. Great. I think I'm cognizant of your time, guys, a couple of things. The first thing is Raoul's written a book. The book is in preorder at the moment, right? The Everything Code is out November 3rd. But please button preorder. It would mean a lot to me. So there's preorder. There's a link below in the description. There's a link below to the preorder. So if you want it and you want to be one of the first people to get it, there's a link below. We'll highlight the link for you guys so that you guys can actually get it. Also, look, I really enjoy talking to Raoul. You can see every time we talk, we can speak for hours and hours and hours. And actually, he's coming to visit me very soon. And we're going to speak for hours and hours and hours. But if you want to speak to him for hours and hours and hours, you can actually. Because there's a Raoul AI, Raoul Paul AI, which you can actually. It's basically, if I understand correctly, it's taken all his billions and billions and billions of data sets online and basically built them into one AI. Am I correct? It's like all of the content I've ever done. So every interview, discussions that we've had, all of the interviews I've done, everything I've written that's on Real Vision, my X feed over the last 15 years. It's all in there. And so it's my voice. So you can call me, say, hey, Raoul, what are you thinking about this? And how should I think about that? And what is this everything code and how does it work? So just go to raoulpal.ai and talk to me. Okay. There's a link to that below as well. It's free as well. Yeah. Don't even try to remember. It's free. Just go there. Free links. Go there and do it. It's fun. Preorder the book. Preorder the book. Go and talk to Raoul Paul AI for free. Raoul, thank you very much, my friend. It was an amazing discussion. So much to unpack. Yeah. My mind's spinning, absolutely spinning. And I'll see you on my side of the fence soon and then in various countries around the world soon as well, so we'll be sick of each other soon. Very excited about that. I'm very excited to get sick of the real person out there. Very, very, very excited. Thank you very much, my friend. Thanks a lot, guys. That was absolutely amazing. A mind blowing. I always know when something is mind blowing because I watch Hardest here who drives the show and I just saw his head going like this. And I always also tell him to keep it down and he's like, jeez, wow. So I know when the shows are going to be good. I know when the shows are going to be good. I know this one's absolutely amazing. Before I let you go, just like really like two minutes before I let you go. So there's a link to Raoul Paul's book. Please, please, please go and preorder it and be like one of the first. Also, get hold of his AI. I think it's just a lot of fun and just to get some of his knowledge and his wisdom for free. 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