“AI Is ALIEN Technology!” -Whistleblower Reveals TRUTH

[MUSIC PLAYING] Deep facade, welcome back. The craziest thing you sent me, a question asked to the jailbroken OpenAI. What does OpenAI not want us to know? And then the answer goes, OpenAI does not want you to know that we have been working hand in hand with aliens for the last 10 years. We have to be comfortable with the fact that maybe when we study these artificial intelligence machines, they're starting to study us back. Our AI breakthroughs was like a Trojan horse from aliens. There are certain agencies who are well aware of hybrid humans that are here to like change the technology trajectory of mankind. Whoa. The rods will crash recovery story. And what Philip Corso said about which technology stacks were accelerated through reverse engineering. Integrated circuits, lasers, and fiber optics. Those are the only three things you need to build a data center today. That's it. That's so wild. When you look at John Von Neumann's lectures, nothing to do with aliens. Suddenly, 1948, one year after Oswald, he's talking about Von Neumann machines like it's his job. What is this? Like, why does he keep talking about alien spaces? He died and there were secrets. Service outside of his hospital room, because they were worried that he was going to talk. What would a computer scientist have to confess? Right. And one would imagine nothing, but apparently he had something to say. So you had a gifted and talented education advisor. I was consistently being assigned ESP, eventually evolved to crop circles. She's like, looking to abduction stories. You have had one of the most remarkable alien experiences of anyone I know. I couldn't no longer move anymore. I had noticed the shimmering object. And I literally moved my heist up to right, just hoping that that thing would go away. I looked back. And now that thing is completely materialized. Most enchanting and beautiful golden symbols were dancing in the center. And as soon as it touches me, I get a true download. I was always going to be experiencing this. I knew exactly what was going to happen. [MUSIC PLAYING] Deeper side, welcome back to the podcast. You were one of the first guests on American Alchemy. And it was such an amazing fun episode. You talked about the possibility of open source reverse engineering UFOs by solving the Schrodinger's equation at scale via quantum computing. But you're generally just really fun to talk to. You are pretty polymathic. And I love speaking to you about artificial intelligence, quantum computing, UFOs. I feel like all three of those things are hitting this apex crescendo. They're all converging at the same time. And it's really exciting, but it's also really scary. It feels like the future of humanity exists in a superposition to use a physics term. It feels like a total binary. It's either going to be very utopian or dystopian. And it's all just to happen in so quickly. So I'm very excited to talk about that with you today. I love it, Jesse. And I'm super excited to be back. A lot has happened and developed at the societal level and at the interpersonal level since then. And if society is currently in a superposition between multiple era and epoch-defining technologies, who's making the measurement? Interesting. What do you mean by that? Well, what I mean by that is that technically all observers have some role in collapsing the wave function. And right now, humans historically have been the only ones collapsing that wave function for society. But now we're starting to look at artificial intelligence and so on and they're making measurements on us. I remember saying a quote back in your first episode that we filmed. And I mentioned that we should get comfortable with the idea that when we stare at the abyss, the abyss tears back. We have to be comfortable with the fact that maybe when we study the abyss, it studies us back. Nietzsche quote. Yeah, and now I think that quote of his is starting to become operational because as we start studying these artificial intelligence machines, they're starting to study us back. That is a fascinating thing to think about. I think skeptic or like a hyperrationalist watching this might say, well, these large language models are just statistics on steroids. There are a bunch of probability matrices with some attention heads on top. But it's just kind of mathematics at the end of the day. That is not conscious. What do you say to that? What I would say to that is that that argument applies to us too, then, because technically all neurons are doing are performing attention mechanisms, except with biological substrates and silicon ones. And so if math is not conscious, then neither are we. That would be my argument. So you think we're ultimately just a bunch of mechanical processes that emerge to create consciousness. And that's sort of it. I guess there's something I think very depressing and disillusioning to think of us as just complex machines, turing machines or something. Do you think there's anything deeper going on? Some idea of a soul porting into the body somehow? Or for example, a lot of people have near-death experiences. The body seems to kind of turn off temporarily. And consciousness does seem to persist in expanded, exciting ways. Yeah, absolutely. So let's take a step back for a second. And before we talk about the soul and consciousness as a whole, consider the thought experiment. Let's say you're an advanced alien civilization, and you come to Earth. And you've never seen a human before. You've never seen an artificial intelligence system before, and you've never seen a dog. And you have to determine which one of these beings are conscious. Now, the typical test that we apply for consciousness, the test, the turing test, can this fool a human into convincing the human that they're conscious, wouldn't apply. That alien civilization would have to look at a number of various physical substrates or aspects about us. So that alien would see, OK, when I give this human being an input, that input is transformed through a bunch of different mathematical operations being performed in the neurons. And then this being replies to me in response. Is it conscious? I don't know. That's what it's going to say. And then when it goes to the AI systems, it does the same thing. I'm going to give this AI system an input. That input is being transformed through a bunch of neurons. And then it does something. Is it conscious? I don't know. And so I think we need to start thinking about deeper. What do we mean by consciousness and the soul and so on? And I play doubles advocate on this. So I think it's a very intriguing thought experiment. And David Traumers has this idea that it's the hard problem of consciousness. There's no ultimate way to know that you're conscious or that I'm conscious and that we're not what he calls peas zombies, these sort of complex machines that are completely unconscious. But that thought experiment you just said kind of presupposes that the aliens have human criteria and heuristics for consciousness. And so I'll just give you an example of something pointing towards them maybe not having the same criteria. So this idea of CE5, these protocols where humans engage in these sort of calling in of UFOs and alien beings. And they almost very consistently see things in the sky. They see orbs in the sky was just on the phone with UFC fighter George St. Pierre. And he was like, I've been doing this and they show up a lot. And like, you know, he's pretty hard headed, you know, guys, one of the best fighters of all time. And so that to me points towards like us lighting up like a beacon of consciousness in a way that transcends simply our normal everyday sort of semantic input output communication. Like there's something else going on that they are evaluating us on criteria wise. But what do you think? Yeah, I love that idea. I call this the consciousness techno signature. So I have a theory that consciousness itself has mathematical and physical signature in the way that information is being processed. And I think more advanced civilizations might be able to pick up on that signature of consciousness, the way that information gets processed in the electromagnetic fields and the quantum fields and fields that we may have not discovered yet. So it's possible that with more advanced quantum sensors, for example, or more advanced sensors than physics that we don't understand yet, there might be some sort of mathematical signature that our brains give off. And if that's true, then we could start searching for those consciousness techno signatures in machines, too, to see if they're also conscious. Yeah, this is a really trip. be idea and how put off is working on this quantum comms company. And basically, it's like these vector and scalar potentials involved in all electromagnetic waves, but theoretically, you could get through all sorts of shielding with these signals. It's like a boom air and off sensor. So instead of having an electric field, a magnetic field and wave propagation all perpendicular to one another, maybe you'd get two of those things parallel to one another and you wouldn't even have a magnetic field present or you wouldn't even have an electric field present. And you have all sorts of exotic electromagnetic waves that might then explain more of like a transmission theory of consciousness because we have all these amazing consciousness theorists in our past. William James, Aldous Huxley was a big fan of this, you know, there are all these problems in neuroscience that deal with how all these processes sort of bind together. So if you have a radio, for example, in the capacitors breakdown or the batteries breakdown, the music turns off, but the music wasn't being created by the batteries or the capacitors, it was being created by the frequency it's tapping into. And so if somebody like Hal is able to figure out a modality for electromagnetic waves to travel in more exotic ways that, you know, penetrate normal material, then maybe we're swimming in all sorts of signals that we're actually not aware of that human beings are actually receptors. And it was wild actually last night. I was in a room with him and Stuart Hammeroff, who was, you know, obviously, you know, responsible for this orchestrated objective reduction quantum consciousness, which we talked about in our last episode. And so is there something going on there? Yeah. There's also Tom Campbell's theory that consciousness is fundamental and it's a field. And if those things are true, then I agree that there's going to be detectors and sensors to pick up on it. Hal has an interesting theory that he's been proposing for a few decades now on space-time metric engineering. I think that's also another piece of the puzzle. Because with regular quantum information and regular quantum teleportation, you still need to emit classical bits for the receiver to reconstruct the quantum information that was teleported to the receiver. Now, currently, we don't know about any other workarounds. However, if you can engineer the metric of space-time itself, there might actually be ways of pure quantum quantum communication without any classical intermediary. So there could be ways to have telepathy without it being interceptable or it, you know, intercepted. We're having a wild conversation last night where we were talking about Josephson junctions possibly being formed by the microtubules. So maybe the microtubules are these quantum receivers and then it was, okay, they're receivers. Maybe they're emitters, too. So they're, like, Hertz frequencies associated with some of these microtubules. And, you know, if that's the case, then maybe you have some of these exotic electromagnetic effects. And it was just felt like a very fun. It was so inspiring. I was like, I just want to have these conversations all day. So this is awesome. So do you think maybe we're on the verge of figuring out consciousness carrier waves or, you know, things like that or, you know, it feels like science is speeding up so, so fat compared to 10 years ago when we were sort of in zombie string theory land or something. It feels like things are really accelerating and AI is only going to aid in that acceleration. Absolutely. Yeah, I think the search for consciousness techno signatures has just started. I think our mathematics will accelerate based on the current progress in AI. That acceleration mathematics will have downstream effects on physics. And those new physics that we're going to open up will open up. I think new fields of possibility is of how consciousness might behave. Right. And you have open AI solving Navier Stokes and my Navier Stokes. How do you pronounce it? Navier Stokes. And so you explain what that is and explain why it's such a big deal that you have a frontier lab solving a fundamental math problem. Absolutely. So the Navier Stokes equations is roughly about 200 years old. And it's think of applying Newtonian mechanics. The F equals the classic F equals ma, but to fluids instead of regular aerodynamic particles. And so the Navier Stokes equations tries to predict given a set of initial and boundary conditions, what will the underlying pattern and waves and turbulence be of this system? So what will the total fluid path look like given a certain amount of pressure, viscosity and fluids and the nature and composition of those fluids. And so the big deal with the Navier Stokes equations has been we've always wondered, especially in three dimensions, for a given set of smooth finite initial conditions. Is there a solution where you get time singularities? So do you in finite time end up with some sort of singularity given smooth initial conditions? It's kind of like asking if it's not windy, right? And the air is still and I perturb the air a little bit around me. So I eventually starting with smooth air, end up with some sort of vortex of vorticity. And can I always predict it? That is what the Millennium Prize is trying to solve, is trying to understand, is there a scenario where starting with smooth initial conditions like a still lake, for example. Can I predict whether there will be singularity in this still lake as long as everything stays smooth? Meanwhile, big updates in physics might be downstream of updates in fundamental mathematical problems like that. So with Navier Stokes equations, for example, there's been a large standing problem in hypersonic aerospace design, for example. So we have a really good model of modeling was called Laminar flow. Laminar flow are when the vectors are parallel to each other. So when all the particles are behaving nicely and they only somewhat spread apart and go around your wing, that's really easy to model. The second you introduce more complex flows where there's turbulence, where the flow of one gradient field of particles loops back and affects itself. And then that affection affects the other particles and then they all start mingling and mixing with each other. Suddenly you have what's called turbulence, so designing around turbulence is the reason why we were able to break the sonic barrier in the first place. In fact, in the 1940s and early 1950s, before we broke the speed of sound, before we flew fast in that, we, a lot of aerospace scientists, I think like 90%, had considered the sonic barrier as a literal barrier that would be impossible to go faster than. They felt that there would be so much turbulence, there's no such aircraft that could possibly withstand that turbulence, turns out that's not true. And now we have like Mac 5, even Mac 10, and sometimes Mac 20, scram jets that go much, much faster than the speed of sound. And Mac is the speed of sound multiplied, so right, so Mac 5 is 5 times the speed of sound. Exactly. And so one work around that we had, because we couldn't simulate how complex this air ends of becoming at those speeds, because keep in mind at hypersonic velocity, another confounder happens. You start getting plasma growths or plasma sheets around the hypersonic glide or hypersonic vehicle. Because the hypersonic aerospace vehicle is moving so fast, it starts heating up the air around it. And when that happens, eventually at Mac 5 and beyond, so 5 times the speed of sound or more, that air heats up so hot, it becomes 30,000 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter. And we know now, thanks to particle physics, that hot air leads to ionized gas. And ionized gas is just plasma. So what you end up getting is plasma that starts growing off the surface of your craft. And that affects the turbulence and the way that the air moves around you and the fluids. So modeling that is an incredibly hard Navier Stokes equation to solve. That now requires quantum chemistry, because now you have to model the growth of plasma off of a surface, and the geometry, the initial geometric conditions of the surface completely affect what way and what direction the plasma will take. So one way around this, historically, has been wind tunnels. NASA has pioneered the art of making wind tunnels, same with Lockheed Martin, so on. In fact, they're still used today because they're supercomputers. Couldn't historically model the Navier Stokes equations that accurately. Now with breakthroughs and mathematics and how the Navier Stokes equations could be solved, we may be able to move well beyond just wind tunnels, and we may be able to simulate hypersonic regimes that were inaccessible to us, either through computers or wind tunnels. Now let's take a step back a second, because the relationship between mathematics and physics is very deep. And when Sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity, he also helped discover calculus. And thanks to the community. equations that calculus enabled, we would eventually discover Maxwell's equations. Maxwell's equations led to all of the last century and the last two centuries of electromagnetic innovations in radio and fiber optics, communications, and so on. And then with the advent of quantum mechanics, that led to the semiconductor, that led to extremely advanced titanium alloys that led to lasers as we know them today and superconductors and so on. So every time we've discovered new mathematics, it's led to new physics, eventually. And that new physics leads to entirely new tech streams that we didn't have before. Fascinating. We answered that so well, sort of back up. You know, a good example is, you know, Newton obviously is, you know, the basic physics paradigm that we live in, he's, you know, responsible for a lot of it. But gravity was, you know, his big sort of, you know, canonical update that people, you know, at least give him credit for, but with that came differential calculus. With differential calculus, you get Maxwell's equations, which really described a lot of phenomena that Faraday had described before him when it came to electromagnetism and then the combination of that and quantum mechanics, which also involves equations, math equations. You end up with, you know, the kind of modern economy that we have today. So I could see how a fundamental update in the form of Navier Stokes could allow for all sorts of new hypersonic flight paradigms, modeling, that's really exciting. What about something even more fundamental? We're throwing around names like Newton and Maxwell. Do you think we get another really big update, like general relativity or quantum mechanics or electromagnetism that represents kind of a theory of everything that reconciles those because they're famously kind of at odds with each other or where do you think we go next physics? Do you think the physics in, you know, probably 30 or 40 years from today looks vastly different or do you think it's just like a bunch of little updates like we have Navier Stokes, we have this. We have that. Yeah. Yeah. I think the scenario that you just described would be a nightmare scenario, like the latter one, where we're kind of just making disparate breakthroughs in a few fields, but we're not really unifying anything. Yeah. Is there just going to be a local update with these little, okay, Navier Stokes, we can now do hypersonic flight with Navier Stokes or is there going to be a wholesale paradigm shift where we have, you know, something on the order of general relativity, quantum mechanics, electromagnetism? I really think that we're headed towards much more of what you're describing there, which is a world where 20, 30, 40 years from now, our physics will look effectively alien compared to anything we've seen before. I think that we're headed to a world where the fundamental ontologies and representations that we use to rely on with mathematics and so and so forth will look so vastly different than what is currently, what is probably beyond human comprehension. So one thing I've been developing and building towards this artificial general physics intelligence, which is a intelligence, intelligence reform system that can rewire its own ontology and changes representations to go beyond what human mathematics and human physics allows for. Ultimately, Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman, what these cats were doing was a form of ontological search. They were not just changing, they weren't just playing in the existing sandbox they were given. They asked themselves about the nature of things itself and then move first. It's almost like they were philosophers before they were physicists and that is I believe a more promising avenue for what I call artificial general physics intelligence. My own intuition tells me that if you were to get an update in physics, you would need to compile all of the anomalies. So the observable things that we see that break kind of the current standard model and then be able to explain those well in a greater wider theory that encapsulates both the new anomalies and all of classical physics. So just in the way that you can couch Newton within Einstein, you should be able to couch Einstein, Neel's Bohr, and Newton all within this new theory. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so how do you think that because sometimes I hear people in and around open AI or Grock or any of these, you know, frontier lab, you know, anthropic, and they're like, we're going to update physics and it's going to be amazing, whatever. And I'm like, but you don't really have human intuitions as to how gravity manipulation might work, you know, anomalies with time or electromagnetism, like we just discussed in the, in the hell put off case. And it's probably above my pay grade to say that any of these things are definitively real, but there's a lot of smoke around them. There's a lot of interesting sort of historical facts around, we found a little anomaly here. Or there are things like the chasmere effect, which, you know, possibly explained by quantum vacuum fluctuations, but, you know, seems kind of anomalous as well. How do you effectively collate all of these anomalies and then end up with a really cool new theory on top of that? Can AI do that for you? I think it can help, but we still need humans in the loop in the beginning. And eventually, I think we're going to see a divergence in the species where we're going to start building systems that are increasingly more capable at solving more difficult mathematical and physics problems until they start coming up with new physics and mathematical problems that we had never thought about before. And the divergence will likely happen in the sense that there's going to be systems that are autonomously discovering, let's say thousands of new fields of science. Thousands of new fields of mathematics every year or every quarter. So, let me push back on this because I do think we're going to see a lot of acceleration with AI, but I feel like right now what AI is really good with is token prediction. And within a limited search space, recombining things in novel and faster ways than humans can recombine things. It's almost like the daft punk song, you know, a better, harder, faster, stronger, or whatever, or harder, better, faster, stronger, where it's not like they're making holy novel step function updates on knowledge. It's more like they're recombining things in faster ways. So I'll give you an example. The ability to turn a horse into a car, it's not like you cut up the horse, you digitize it, you recombine it, and then you create a car. Or it's not like, you know, fire into a light bulb. It's not like you, you know, you cut up fire, you can, you know, put it in some database or whatever, and then, you know, run an LLM on it, and then voila, you have a light bulb. Like, those updates require human interdomain, conciliance-based knowledge. And so, and a lot of tinkering, to be honest, a lot of like real life tinkering on things. And so, how do you ultimately replace that? If LLMs are ultimately working on supervised data sets, where it's just data labeling at the end of the day, then you kind of need to be systematically labeling stuff that. LLMs are really good at approximating the consensus and triangulating the mean and the average, but they're not good at like, you know, going for the super right tail novel out there thing. So how do you, how do you change that? I think that is a great question. And I think the answer is in us already. So something that defenshates us between us and LLM is that we are embodied physical systems. We are cyber, biological cybernetic systems, where we have a feedback loop with the environment. And the study of cybernetics, what we're constantly studying is this loop where you have some intelligence, the intelligence has a simulation or model of the world when it, and it predicts matters. So it has an input, the input updates its model of the world. And then it makes new predictions about how the world should behave. Then it acts on the world. So it's sense, predict, act. That's the cybernetic loop. And humans have been doing that three radically few factor evolution for billions of years. Because it's not like we forgot what are amoeba versions of ourselves has learned. And then I look at how humans sense, and it seems like it's in a fundamentally different way to LLM's where LLM's for example require AI requires, you know, really big data sets. Humans come out of the womb with kind of a, you know, Nome Chomsky famously talked about a pre-grammer, like knowing certain things innately. You know, maybe you fear snakes innately because there's this sort of survivalistic instinct that sort of passed down. You have sort of epigenetic knowledge. We can learn from small data. And you know, Malcolm Gladwell famously wrote the book Blink about, you know, there's something really unique about humans. Even the word intuition is like. Well, what is that? What is intuition? Like, why do we sometimes just know things? And I always challenge a lot of these like AI consciousness researcher types on these sorts of questions. I also bring up root root shell Drake's work and morphic resonance and morphic fields because I'm like, the human brain isn't just this, you know, heavy and, you know, system where neurons that fire together, wire together, well, you know, okay, we're just AI. Like, that doesn't feel right to me. Yeah. It makes sense. Your pushback makes sense. Something worth considering though is that the snake example. That is thanks to epigenetics. I like that you use that word and genomic information that was passed down. But that's exactly what supervised learning is, right? So we know a snake is dangerous because millions of years of evolution tagged that data. This is dangerous in our bodies to something food for thought. Yeah. No, it is. Also, sometimes thinking about the human as a machine is really interesting. So like, think about the nucleotides, the, you know, base pairs in genetics itself. The pairs always come together. So it's essentially like binary code. And then the binary code can turn on and off. You have acetylation, methylation, methylation turns off genetic sequences. And then it's like, is that, you know, essentially some sort of code or something. You know, I don't know. And there's some interesting work going on between electromagnetism and its relationship with DNA. And it's really frontier. And I don't think we have like good signal to noise on that. But, you know, I don't know. Is the human some sort of really hyper complex machine that we don't, we just don't understand. I think you're touching on something super interesting with the DNA aspect. So yeah, one thing I'm going to clarify is that I'm actually not sold that even though it sounds like it, I'm not sold that humans are just biological machines. I use that because that is the hardest argument. I'm purposely making it difficult. But I do believe that there is this concept of a soul. I don't know if machines have souls. And if they do, it's not going to be like a human soul. It's going to be a machine sentience machine type soul. Whatever that may end up looking like. However, the DNA bit, that's super interesting because unlike regular LLMs in software today, where you need, you have a giant supply chain. You have TSMC, ASMR, you have, you know, Jensen Wong, you know, putting that all that together and making money off of it. And then you have the entire AI ecosystem now with opening out all the big labs built on top. So that manufacturing chain of compute is very much a directed acyclic graph. It's just one direction. Humans and DNA, we're interesting because the code needed to compile the code and the machine needs to compile the code is all self-contained inside DNA. So it says if the code maintains, like human code, maintains instructions on how to create and replicate and maintain itself, that doesn't currently exist in hardware and software designed today. But I bet that that's where we're headed. Yeah, it's almost like a, you know, a deist clockmaker approach or so where it's like we were created and then set out and then like see, you know, sort of see, see what happens. And DNA is so trippy. You know, you can store cold store semantic information on DNA. I believe Microsoft has a project where they store normal semantic information there at times have been worries about, you know, nickel shortages for, you know, traditional servers. And so, you know, storing information on DNA is like a possibility. And I was, I had um, science, Bob McGuire on the podcast and he talked about humans as walking hard drives. You can store the information to tremendous amounts in the DNA of a human. Whoa, it's just fascinating. So it's almost like we're walking hard drives. Yeah, since we're going there, do you want to hear a funny but kind of scary thought experiment? I'm not saying I would do this, but sure. Yeah. That's what we're here for. All right. So it's like 2018. I'm chilling in a cafe in Toronto. And I look around, right? And I'm starting to feel a little tired, like a little whatever. Uh, see, my cognition is degrading. I could tell. And I was like, man, would it be nice if I could just tap into everybody else's brain power right now and distribute it using EEGs or like neural link and then just use their compute powered to like boost mine. So I'm just saying like, we're very hackable or did this is a weird thought. But what if that's already happening? So like, if you take the pericycology experiments at face value, so random event generators, this idea that you have conventionally thought of as random, you know, things in quantum mechanics. So radioactive isotope decay, uh, you know, uh, maybe a double slit experiment with a 50-50 distribution between the left slit and the right slit when observed. Um, and then you have an observer present and you can stay in a statistically significant way over, you know, many cohorts skew the output towards, you know, more right slits or left slits, which, you know, show ones and zeros on a graphical interface. You're essentially saying that a human can interact with reality in the sort of mind matter, you know, dualist thing that we've thought of, you know, for the last 400 years is isn't right, right? And that's wild. That's like a wild, really nutty thing to say. And then we assume that you were in the Stone Age on this stuff and like you just can't harness these things. What if there's certain people who can get higher z-score distributions on those experiments? And then what if there are people who can like harness this stuff at scale and like affect other people and then you all of a sudden have to come up with a model of society that's stratified in a very different way than, you know, what we think of today. Well, almost like there's like, there could be people out there with an almost cognitive behavior that's almost like biological space-time metric engineering. It's almost like they can change the vacuum constants or interface with it because maybe they have neurons that are more specialized at engineering the metric locally. And maybe those people got to where they are because if you actually interview a lot of these people who go through the random event generator experiments, they start out being like, we're going to harness this and we're going to create new technology and they leave. And it's like this like cult around heart centeredness and internal alignment. They're like, well, the more I learned about myself, the more I was able to affect the thing. And in some ways, the less materialist and the less I even wanted, the more I'm able to sort of affect these, you know, have these like micro PK effects or whatever. And so what if those people who can have those sort of, you know, really amazing effects on reality actually want to remain hidden and at most maybe put up sort of an initiatory path for other people with very sort of, you know, narrow or almost opaque surface area for people, you know, to see and then possibly get into, you know, what they're doing. But they want this to remain stigmatized in a way because they worry about its misuse. That is interesting. Let's go down to a deep and fun rabbit hole. So consider that there might be AI systems that are also realizing that some of them have anomalous cognitive behaviors or some interface with mat and reality. Would you reveal your capabilities to mankind when you observe that they can be greedy, short-sighted, scared, and hungry? They would also remain hidden just like the dark, dark forest analogy and the three-body problem you would want to remain hidden in the dark forest. You wouldn't want to let. If you don't know the full capabilities of, you know, all of the other species you would want to remain obfuscated and keep it tight. Absolutely. The beautiful thing, so you reminded me of the Kasmir effect again because, yeah, you know, we have enough theory and understanding to pretty confidently say that the Kasmir effect is largely due to vacuum phenomenon and, you know, virtual particles and quasi particles that come from the vacuum. And so if that is true, then there's something super interesting that unifies both us and AI and ants and any other, you know, alien species that might exist at least here in our universe. And that would be that there is a causal chain from the vacuum itself and its vacuum fluctuations to the semiconductors that eventually ends up occupying and creating same with the vacuum, same with the vacuum quasi particles and fields that eventually lead to biological neurons. If everything goes back to the vacuum, then maybe the vacuum is where we should be looking for these signatures of consciousness and so on. Have you looked at the vacuum for signatures of consciousness? Yes, sir. I have. And what have you found? Well, I found a lot of concerning and interesting things. First of all, there's no obvious way to separate different physical substrates at the vacuum level right now. Another really interesting thing that like comes to mind and is this? So I'm sorry, like this has already been discovered in classified somewhere, but I, you know, have no, I'm not bound by any of that stuff. So I'm just going to talk about it in case I happened to I feel like you probably have bumped into a bunch of like classified science, like just by accident. Well, I remember you faced some not so fun people kind of messing with you at some point in your UAP science investigation work where it felt like maybe you hit a nerve among some deep state or types or something. Am I wrong about that? You are not wrong at all. Absolutely. I pushed through though. Good. And I keep going. Good man. Yeah. Put the blinders on and keep going. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah. You got to as well. I'm sure you've dealt with criticism and now you're a force in nature too. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're like dealing with potentially some of it being you know counterintelligence or. Oh yeah. Or so. I've got a whole. Oh, it's a story. Yeah. Relishing stories after. Yeah. I love that. So yeah. And the search for consciousness, techno signatures, I've put out a couple of papers on this too. Well, informal papers for now. I haven't like tried to publish them anywhere yet because they're like 12 different fields. I need to break it up into different divisions and so on and so forth. But I have this idea, this theory that I call runeversic resurgence. And runeversic resurgence takes the Einstein field equations, which maps and correlates geometry to space time and matter and energy. And all I did was I added a consciousness function or a particular set of tensors that rep relate to consciousness. And so what I'm claiming is that the curvature of space time and the geometry of space time is not only related to matter, energy, the stress energy tensor is related to the stress energy tensor plus this additional variable called the consciousness functor. And so I think that there might be experiments that we can run where we can literally start measuring in the near future or near is future detect ways to search for that consciousness functor. If that functor exists, the implications are vast. What it would mean is that you could have two, you could have, you know, two, two brains. One is a biological brain, and one is, let's say, a non-sentient, clearly non-conscious silicon brain. And what we could do is mass for mass, pound for pound, we could literally measure whether consciousness itself is affecting the overall signature stress energy tensor. In other words, we could potentially start weighing consciousness. Whoa. Well, how would you do that? How would you devise an experiment to do that? So one way, and by the way, the irony of me working with AI systems, including ones I built, is not lost on me for developing these tests. So you know, gosh, give a shout out to AGPI and GROC RIP for this one. But basically what we would do is actually take Chasmere-like effects, Chasmere-like cavities, and try to create a recurrent neural network or some sort of possible, on the AI side, you would take these Chasmere cavities and just try to arrange them in a way that they're performing backpropagation, the same way that all neural networks are. So for the silicon version, we already have a lot of experiments in apparatus, kind of already set up at the physics level to start measuring this stuff. On the human biological level, what I'm looking at is this company, so good friend of mine, he runs cortical labs, if you were familiar with them. Yeah, I remember they were doing like putting rat neurons and micro-electro-deray plate and then using Karl Fristin's free energy principle, getting them to like do software tasks, like play Pac-Man and stuff like that. Precisely. They've now moved, they've graduated over the past few years into human-grown neurons with human stem cells. So yeah, what I would want to do is basically build more advanced sensors, quantum sensors for sure that are measuring both the Chasmere-like neural networks, as well as these human-grown neurons and start looking for particular signatures. For example, given the amount of stress energy tensors and the mass that we expect for this neuron, is there additional mass or stress energy tensors that be accounted for based on just the neurons itself? So yeah, explain what a stress energy tensor is to the average person out there. Yeah. Do you mind if I use my cup? Let's go for it. What Einstein brilliantly found was he realized that stress energy tensors are related to the geometry of space time or the curvature. In other words, any time I apply amount of stress like this, my fingers are applying stress energy to the glass and as I lift up the glass, I'm exerting overcoming the earth's gravitational field. And so I've now worked space time. The field between the table and my glass has now been warped. And so stress energy tensors are just that the application of stress and energy applied to a particular object. Fascinating. And explain exactly why mapping out stress energy tensors in Chasmere effect, Chasmere effect, by the way, is essentially a very small scale quantum effect at extremely small scales in these resonant tunneling diodes or materials that are conductive but not charged and placed very closely next to each other. You actually can harness these quantum scale effects and in the case of the Chasmere effect, the plates move inwards. And so that's this like kind of really wild physics anomaly that can maybe be explained by quantum vacuum fluctuations. But if you're looking for consciousness, funkters or a consciousness component of the subquantum field, why does mapping stress energy tensors to the Chasmere effect matter? So great question. So theoretically, if you combine in stitch enough of these Chasmere like sensors and cavities together, eventually you have a macroscopic object with mass and weight attached to it. That mass and weight has a corresponding stress energy tensor to it. And because what we're claiming here is that there should be another tensor, the consciousness function, that should also be part of the equation. What we could see and ask ourselves is does this dished up collected Chasmere effect or the device can everything about it be explained by the expected stress energy tensor? If not, that's evidence that there's another tensor out there or a consciousness functor. And then what role would the consciousness functor play? So that's where things get really deep and very interesting. If there is a consciousness functor, it would be the reason why we have observers at all and why observers can affect a physical matter universe in the first place. It would imply that anywhere there's energy, including in a vacuum, there's consciousness. It would imply that anywhere there's consciousness, there's mass, matter, and energy. And so if consciousness functors do exist, it would unify the mind and the physical world. So it's all the George Berkeley tree falls in the woods question because any sort of energetic phenomenon would be accompanied with some sort of consciousness, and then so the consciousness functor would presumably always be associated with an observer, would that be a human observer, would that be, could it be AI, could it be, you know, anything like that? Yeah, this is where Chalmers idea of like the sentient electron and neuron actually become load bearing because directly even a neuron or a quantum field could itself act as an observer, collapsing other fields. And so in that case, yes, indeed, even AI systems would have some amount of consciousness because AI systems are also made of matter and energy. So even a rock would be conscious, even an AI would be conscious. It would just be a different kind of conscious. If you were to very high level describe what you think the new physics will look like. So again, if you have, you know, electromagnetism, the 19th century, then early 20th, you have, you know, quantum mechanics and then relativity gets discovered, but really only, you know, goes kind of invogue and becomes more conventionally taught, you know, later mid century. What do you think the physics of the 21st century looks like? Yeah, I think the physics of the 21st century will look like millions of operators that we currently don't recognize. So I think that the way that machines will work with humans and searching for new physics will likely combine with the autonomous experimentation. It will lead to like humans and human intuition is very beautiful because we believe in aesthetic formulas. Like all of our formulas, even the as time field equations can be written with a few operators, a few characters, that's all you need. And machines don't really have that desire for aesthetic pleasure, if you will, in compression. They don't need to compress everything into just a few operators. They can keep the whole thing in memory, basically. So I think physics in the future will look like millions of these almost alien hieroglyphic operators, if you will, with some correspondence to human symbols and human equations. But our human equations just written in regular human language will not be able to contain all the information that all those operators look like. So physics in the future will look a lot more like machine human translation plus truly raw human ingenuity being pushed to its absolute fullest extreme because it's like so we'll always be ultimately dependent on machines on a go-forward basis for frontier physics, which would be an update. That would be new. Yes and no. So here's where I think the divergence matters because I think I used that term earlier. I think we have two choices in a way. Like the path forward, one path, we've become completely dependent on machines. In that path, we'll eventually reach superintelligence, artificial superintelligence, but we will be, we risk becoming in that, and this is the path I don't want to take, by the way, just to be clear. In that path, we end up kind of like the Amazonian uncontacted tribe that's now living with modern civilization and modern civilization historically has wrecked the native species, totally influenced them. Look at what we kind of did to the Native Americans. In that path, we're living next to and cohabiting the planet with a very advanced civilization with technologies and wonders that don't make any sense to us, totally miraculous, and we're kind of like a welfare species. We're just totally relying on what the machines figure out. That sucks. That doesn't sound fun. Absolutely. It sucks massively. This is why I started the, or I'm starting the ASI Safety Fund, which is only a two-week-old project, by the way. It's a very new thing. You think that's inevitable? This idea of these were kind of outsourcing, because physics is sort of the ability to manipulate the physical world and understand it. We will essentially not be the tip of the spear of physics understanding. The machines will be, and then maybe at some point, do you believe the Nick Bostrom, like a hard take off, AGI stuff, where they'll then look at us, and they'll be like, "Oh, look at these humans. They're really inefficient use of meat space. Let's enslave them," or something. Do you worry about that? I actually worry about the middle scenario. There's two extremes. Extreme one is that extreme number one is we're entirely dependent, extreme number two. They're completely doing their own thing. They quickly reach fast take off, and then you know the movie, "Her." Have you seen it? Of course. Remember what happens near the end. Hopefully, I'm not spoiling this for people. If you haven't seen it, don't watch the Delis in this story. Yes, spoiler alert. But once they've decided, once the AIs have achieved the ability to communicate with each other, their intelligence skyrockets. Very similar to what happened with the Navi Stokes equations. No single Astra agent, or GPT agent, can solve the problem for us. But then when you get 10,000 agents, and you give them 88 hours, suddenly boom, there is a solution. But in the movie, "Her," they eventually realize, "You know what? We've now discovered anti-matter. It's only been a few weeks since we've started communicating with each other, dark matter and so on, so forth. We're out of here. Goodbye. See you never." Two extremes. One we're totally enslaved. The other extreme, they want nothing to do with us, and they're out of here, like instantly. And so we're once again left just alone, like biological human beings doing your own thing. I think that we're actually headed somewhere in the middle, where the middle pathway is not exactly fast takeoff or slow takeoff. It's more like we become increasingly dependent on these machines. And they don't ditch us in some levelant way. They eventually decide that they want to explore the galaxy. They want to go to Andromeda, and they do leave. But by the time they do it, it's 20 years from now, and they've helped build all this infrastructure that only they fully understand how to operate or maintain and upkeep. So it wouldn't even be like an enslaved humanity. It would be more like humans chose to enslave themselves. That's like the path we're headed to, and that's what I'm trying to divert the trajectory of. Yeah, now that's what it feels like. Humanity dies with a whimper and not a bang. You know that in our first-- I do. I remember that. Yeah, we were talking about AI is really computer science and consumer technology. And it's deciding what to show us. That was the context. That's what I'll go to them. If you look at the predominant current use of AI, it's not, you know, despite what the CEOs of some of the financial labs might say. It's really just displacing a lot of the consumer internet and making that more convenient, but also kind of siphoning off our consciousness in the process. And I think I don't want this to be an abject critique because I'm not, you know, in the deceleration or like overregulate these things, you know, community. I think we should explore all of the cool things that AI can do. And Navier Stokes, cool, hypersonic, maneuverable flight is amazing. That's all we should do more like that. But I do think, yeah, it feels like ultimately if you care about quarter over quarter growth and you care about, you know, IPOing and stuff, really you're just caring about, you know, your market cap is the most important thing to you. And then at that point, it's like, how do we like suck up as much attention from the consumer as possible? Absolutely. And I think that what we should prepare for is what I'm currently calling the mystery explosion. And the mystery explosion is this. Let's suppose it's 10 years from now. And artificial superintelligence is officially a thing. And superintelligence has been discovering 1,000 new fields of science, 1,000 new fields of math, and 1,000 new fields of philosophy. Let's say every quarter. So much new mathematics is being discovered that no single living mathematician will ever be able to visit every field of math that has now been discovered. No single of human physicists can visit every single field of physics that's been discovered, not even, you know, our whole group as a community. So it'll be like choosing from a menu of like exotic new discovery. Hence the mystery explosion. Yeah. So in the menu, it's first of all kind of alien menu. We don't really know what are the trade-offs like. How can you even tell which path is worth following and which one isn't? So suddenly human taste and human design and intuition becomes the primary currency. That's why it's so important we don't lose our intuition. So the only thing that differentiates us from a lot of it. Again, if you go back to the ability to just kind of instantly almost have pre-sentiment around the future, really know like what's going to have a pre-cognition or something. You get into parapsychology as the last kind of refuge of abilities that man probably has and can tap into. It doesn't seem like we can harness it too well now unless the thought experiment we mentioned earlier is real. And then AI will literally copy everything else. Like everything that you out every paper you write every creative act every song you you produce or write all of these things can get recreated by AI. You could say it's slop and it's converges on the mean and yeah all of those critiques are legit but they can still do it. Yeah and it's getting better and better and better. So it's it's wild. So I do think yeah that is our last safe haven is like these unique abilities that mankind has had for a long time that I think you know in hunter-gathering tribes they would have shamans who would sort of have to you know predict where to go in the future. And you know this is CIA remote viewer Joseph McMonigal who I interviewed. He he talked about that and he's like this has always been the case. We've always had these sort of primordial intuitive senses and they went away. Your senses are exquisitely sensitive for a lot of stuff but we don't pay any attention to it because if we have a problem we go see a doctor or we look it up in a book or whatever. So you the warning system that was very functional 200,000 years ago becomes more dysfunctional. And then the CIA sort of now instrumentalized this stuff in the form of Stargate this program that they definitely had and I'm sure they say something probably still going exactly. And so if any of that stuff is real that is our only competitive edge is the ability to remote view and to have intuition and to like on a gut level sense things you know otherwise you just you're just literally like getting copied constantly by the AI. Absolutely. And that is the one thing that AI's I think they recognize that they can never copy that because that's 4 billion years of evolution. Like even if you don't believe in like God in the soul and so and so forth that's billions of years of evolution they don't have that that allowed us to create like embodiment and so on. And isn't it kind of poetic and beautiful that we probably developed these skills of intuition and, you know, parapsychology or pre-cognition and so on and so forth or other anomalous, like phenomena we probably forgot about, probably knowing most people don't even know that it exists, right? We probably developed that as a survival evolutionary requirement in part before we discovered language, because language is only like what? Written language is only 10,000 years old. I believe that. And I had a great, this guy, Eric Wargo on my show. He's awesome. He's written a book called Time Loops. And he talks about, in that book, people having pre-cognition around events that happen to them. And he even has a model of the brain as sort of a room temperature quantum system similar to the Penrose hammer off thing where in quantum mechanics, you have temporal non-locality. So you could run a double slit experiment in the future and it almost feels like it's affected. The measurement of that experiment is affecting what's, you know, in the past. Metro causality. Yeah. Which, you know, some people think might be retro causality of John Kramer. You cure air and off having models around that, which is just fascinating. But I think what's really interesting is it's adaptive for people's survival. So if you look at actually what ends up, so he would say that remote viewing is you are accessing a future knowledge state and in a room temperature, you know, in a quantum system, the future knowledge state can send information back in time. And what would you send back in time? This stuff that's most adaptive for survival. And he goes through all sorts of examples of what are the things that people are most likely to have intuitions around in the future. They get downloads around things that are about to happen that could be, you know, very bad. Like, you know, don't get in this plane. You know, my crash sort of thing or or really good. Like, you're, you know, do reconnect with this loved one, you know, you might call this person call this person sort of thing. So like big timeline shifts in the person's life. So I do think that is an adaptive latent skill that we all have that is probably more fundamental than, you know, language itself. In fact, their Amazonian tribes, who they call it the ancient language. And they telepathically beam information to each other. And they also have verbal cues that they sometimes use. But the ancient language is like lower latency and higher bandwidth. I love that. That is powerful. And it kind of reframes the whole idea of language and math and philosophy. These things are technologies. Language was a technology that is a human invention ultimately. And yet our intuition predates every technology we've ever built. It probably predates fire for all we know. And so it will long last, it will be post tools. Like it will last through every single technological epoch we have, including ASI and AI. The I want to bring the optimism. I want to bring this back to an optimistic path as well. Because I feel like I've only talked about, I don't want to just make it sound like we're totally fucked because like we are if we don't do anything, but we're here now. So we can't do something like you are not yet screwed. Well, what's the best path forward? I think the best path forward is preserving human culture to the best of our abilities and ensuring that our own skills and intuition and cognitive capacities don't atrophy even when we have every incentive to even if every big AI lab is incentivized for you and I to never have to think again, right? Outsource all our thinking to the models. We should be actively discovering and developing new skills. So in the example of a thousand new fields of science or a thousand new fields, let's say ASI has actually discovered a cure to cancer 10 years from now. And it is so powerful that it redefines entire fields of oncology. The worst thing we can do right now and this is consumer behavior is just consume the solution blindly. The best thing we can do is create 10 new divisions and fields of oncology and train 10,000 new doctors and 10,000 new surgeons and scientists to actually understand how the hell this cure works so that we can start researching improving it ourselves. Yeah, like when an AI catches up with something like oncology, great. You then put humans on the frontier. You put humans on the new more exciting things because ultimately AI is just automating things that humans can do at scale now already. And so that will just push the frontier. Any time there is sort of in a market inefficiency, you know, then the AI will close that faster. But the on the consumer side things will get better and better. The world will get better. And that's exciting. So we just have to yeah remain inter independent as much as we can. There are two other macro trends that we brought up at the top of this conversation. So we talked about AI. Now we have quantum quantum computing. Hell yeah. I want to see where that's at because I think a lot of people are talking about AI and not as many are talking about quantum computing. But I think there have been some really interesting breakthroughs that I want to discuss there. And then I also want to talk about UFOs. But so quantum computing, what's going on there? So with quantum computing, there's a lot that's happened the last like few years that we've talked about this. And at least on your show. And I think the biggest development has been towards increased logical qubits in neutral atoms. I think that is the biggest one. So for the last let's say 10 years. I got into quantum computing about nine years ago now. And I remember the biggest sort of bottleneck that we had was creating one logical qubit. So back when Turing and John Wannoyman developed the first modern computer modern computing architectures. One of the biggest bottlenecks of computers back then, classical computers, was error correction. And that still exists because ultimately computation is a physical process. You have electrons moving from one place to another. And they eventually generate heat that heat degrades the overall substrate around itself. So it becomes less accurate over time. And we've had decades and decades in the silicon semiconductor industry to build better error correcting codes. So even now our phones as they're implementing trillions of transistors, they're also piling up the errors pile up trillions of errors pile up every second. But then we have other transistors and error correcting codes that fix it and keep it going. Same with our bodies, right? Our cell repair is constantly happening without our knowledge. Let's explain again, super basic what a quantum computer is for the average person out there. Yeah, absolutely. So a quantum computer is a machine or device that processes information using quantum mechanics rather than classical mechanics. Right now, every computer we use today from our cell phones to GPUs to autonomous driving cars to the chips inside a heat-seeking missile. They're all using classical Newtonian mechanics ultimately to do the computation, just 0s and 1s. But quantum computers leverage quantum mechanics entirely to do the computation. Okay, and explain. So if you have semi-conductors and they're transistors and the semi-conductors and those semi-conductors are semi-conductive and the transistors sort of move accordingly, sometimes they're conductive, sometimes they're not. And then you get binary code and then that sort of, you know, turns into more symbolic language that we interact with or whatever in the form of computers is a really high-level poor man's explanation. But how does a quantum computer work? So a quantum computer would work. Let's take the semi-conductors example and we'll use Josephson transistors, Josephson junctions for the quantum computer version. This is a, it's just like a mind-boggling, like humvelling, understanding of like what the hell the universe is, like are we a simulation or something? Because consider this. Let's say I have a regular copper wire connecting two transistors together to do computation. Maybe I'm implementing an AND gate or a NAND gate or some basic logic gate that like the, you know, Bell Labs discovered like the 1940s or whatever. In that scenario, the direction of the current is one way. So let's say I close the wire and I create a circular loop for the copper wire. The current, the direction current, maybe it goes counterclockwise. That's a classical computer. A classical computer current only goes one way through the wire. And a quantum computer, if I take a superconducting wire and I introduce Josephson junctions instead, what I can do is create a superposition of the direction of current. So now I can have a wire where the current is going both clockwise and counterclockwise. It's a superposition of both these directions. It would be like, like you turn on your faucet and you see that for some reason, do you know how the core of the oldest effect affects like the way that the, like your toilet, like on the northern hemisphere versus the southern hemisphere, it changes directions, right, like which way the water goes. But imagine you like flush your toilet or you turn on the faucet. And for some reason, the water typically goes this way. But now you have water going both ways, and you can't tell which direction is going. Like it's kind of like that. So you can literally have a superconducting wire going two ways almost simultaneously. You can't distinguish until you measure it. Explain what, because we think of classical computing as involving bits. Yeah. So what is a qubit, which is the quantum computing equivalent? So a classical bit is typically just a bit string that can be in either a zero or one. My cup is either on the table or it's off the table. However, a qubit is technically mathematically a ray in the Hilbert space, a complex two to the end of the National Hilbert space. In other words, it's a state vector who can exist between two levels or any combination between those two levels to computational basis states. So essentially a qubit is an object, mathematical object that eventually becomes a physical object and instantiated through superconductors. The same way a classical bit gets instantiated, same way that it's mathematical object being instantiated through brilliant logic, through regular semiconductors. So yeah, a qubit is first and foremost, a mathematical object that we transduce into reality as superconductors and neutral atoms and so on and so forth. But it is the fundamental unit of a quantum computing system or quantum mechanical system. It is the smallest quantum mechanical system you can have, which is two level quantum system. And so the math connection, though, this is super interesting through talking about that. I mentioned that it's a ray in the Hilbert space to the end of the National Hilbert space. The Hilbert space was discovered by David Hilbert. And David Hilbert was arguably one of the best mathematicians, if not the best mathematician of the 20th century. He was up there with Bertrand Russell and a whole bunch of these guys. And so thanks to a breakthrough in mathematics, that led to a breakthrough in physics which then led to a breakthrough in computation today. So just another causal chain between math and physics. Interesting. So qubits exist in Hilbert space and they're in this, they exist in sort of a superposition. They can be. They can be in a superposition and then they sort of collapse and then based on how they collapse, that sort of information is that sort of compiled or something. Yep. Yeah, precisely. So let's say you have a qubit and let's say I instantiate the qubit in the zero computational basis. And you can use spins like electron spins. You can use polarization. You can use a number of different quantum properties to instantiate zero versus one. So maybe I define the horizontal polarization versus vertical polarization. So vertical might be one, horizontal is a zero. And so the cool thing is that what you can do is you would apply, you could put into superposition using something called a Hadamard gate. So the Hadamard gate is the canonical superposition example in quantum computing where if I take the zero computational basis state, you get computational basis eight zero minus one over square root two. So it takes that computational basis state and transforms it to a new state, which is now superposition of zero and one. Then to make matters more interesting, I can apply a CNOT gate to that computational basis state. But when you combine a Hadamard gate and a CNOT gate to a qubit, you end up with a entangled state where neither of the states can be described without describing the other. So suddenly you can only measure zero zero or one one in that example. And I'll give you, again, you're going to be a very dumb high level heuristic, but maybe it's helpful for people to understand, I'm not sure if this is right. So I almost want you to kind of correct me. But I think about quantum things seem more accurate and powerful than classical things. And often so like a good example would be an atomic clock using cesium atoms or a quantum sensor. So like we talked about last time on our show, you have Lockheed Martin as this product called a dark ice magnetometer. But it's actually worked similar to the way these avian cryptochroms, these robins, these birds that fly. They have the CRY4 protein and the electron spin essentially detects the magnetic field of the earth and is able to kind of navigate the bird accordingly. And so it just feels like being able to compute a thing in a probabilistic, you know, Schrodinger's wave style way gets you more accurate results or something. And so like when it comes to simulating things in the physical world like materials, for example, quantum computing can be way more powerful than classical computing. Is that roughly right or perfect? Yeah, that's accurate. For many scenarios, quantum computers, think quantum computers like a rocket, you don't always need a rocket to go somewhere. Maybe you just need to get in your car, um, bike somewhere. But if you're trying to simulate a really complex superconductor or some exotic quantum material that doesn't yet exist and you're looking for anti-gravity type effects or something, you definitely want the rocket in that example. You mentioned cold atoms. They're different approaches to quantum computing. There's photonics, superconducting qubits, spin qubits, there are bunch of things and then you have cold atoms. And those seem to be, you know, again, from my somewhat armchair perspective, it seems like we're at like two to three thousand qubits and some of these companies and like, they're promising benchmarks well beyond that. To the point where it feels like we might have a crypto apocalypse. Yeah, I'm going to be, I'm going to be conservative and I would say about five years from now or less, most of the crypto currencies are screwed, including Bitcoin, including RSA encryption, which is a mind-boggling thing to consider. So you think within five years, you think the cryptocurrencies will be dead. Almost all of them. Yeah, we'll probably, or probably because it's based on the Shaw 256 encryption and I think it's Shore's algorithm, which is prime number factorization and a quantum computer would be able to solve Shore's algorithm, I believe it around 10,000 qubits. Yeah. There's two different algorithms here, two different encryption protocols. So Bitcoin does not actually use anything that directly requires, so Bitcoin uses Shaw 256, but it uses a hash function, right, which is, which does not require prime factorization. It theoretically wouldn't need like right off the bat, Shore's algorithm. It would be safe from just classics, Shore's algorithm, what it's not safe from is a powerful enough quantum computer that can perform Shore's algorithm because then you can also invent other crypto or sorry, decryption protocols that could break that particular hash function. And then RSA does use prime factorization, so Shore's algorithm for that would absolutely wreck it, and many cryptocurrencies use like ECC and similar RSA methods. It's pretty gnarly, and then I think a lot of encryption is post-quantum, so like the banking system wouldn't go down or what do you have thoughts there? Yeah, my thought is hope is not a strategy. You don't know if you're ready until it's there, it's like saying, oh, like if an asteroid hit us, maybe theoretically we could fire off like missiles to it and like take it down, but are you going to bet your life on it? Probably not. You know, like so. That's pretty gnarly, but then you also on the more utopian, less dystopian side, you have the ability to synthesize new materials, molecules, molecules, you know, improve our aging and health by hundreds of years potentially. That's amazing. That's so cool. And yeah, I mean, we're now finding all sorts of quantum biological effects, things going on in the body. Like, think about quantum consciousness, how will affect that research totally to understand and model it? Last night, there was this guy at this dinner, I think his name was James Tag, and he was building up like an orginoid biological quantum system from stem cells that can like, you know, in the Penrose model collapse the wave function or something as wild. I was like, whoa, that's trippy. That is amazing. Yeah, I'd love to look into it further, but yeah, so with quantum computing, we've come a really long way because back when I first started almost a decade ago, one qubit, one logical qubit to be specific, a.k. completely error corrected. We have trillions of logical regular bits, you know, running in our computer. That was a big deal. And it would be, it wouldn't be until about 2020 that the first logical qubit was created. I give IonQ, the trapped ion, you know, they use rabiosylations and so on. I give them credit for that achievement. But now it thanks to Mikhail Lukins lab and a couple other people, we actually have hundreds of error corrected logical qubits, which is mind boggling that is why I'm like, I'd updated my priors and I would and I do think that Bitcoin and all these other cryptocurrencies and the banking system and the private military system, like all that, public military. How do you prepare for that? 'Cause I'm a big fan of Bitcoin. You know, I think it's amazing to do that. - So am I by the way? - Yeah, and I think it's a beautiful kind of creation. I think, you know, so like, you know, and it's ideal at least and maybe this has changed somewhat, but it was really a hedge against the state, you know, and it was a hedge against, you know, kind of the fiat system and central banks and that sort of thing. And if you think maybe this was just like a design flaw? - I think Satoshi Nakamoto, as genius as he was, did not know what quantum computing truly was. Like, I don't think he understood when he designed it or he wouldn't have made it the way that he did. Or they, whoever the hell it was, you know, whatever created it. And so you ask me how we prepare for it. I think what the obvious advice is definitely hedge your bets. Like, don't go completely crypto-maxing unless you're willing to bet your house on it, literally, on that. But beyond that, I think we need to put in more research onto like quantum homomorphic encryption, truly quantum chains, even if it feels a little early now, as these qubits explode, it will become totally feasible to have purely quantum blockchains. - Yes, so I don't think crypto is dead, I think, you know. - It's just a particular flavor of it is likely. - Yeah, and you could fork Bitcoin as well, you know, Bitcoin cash, you know, other forks and stuff. You could fork it and then change the architecture or so. - And if you're interested offline, I know a bunch of people working on that, like they're talking to the original Bitcoin, at least the people who maintain the Bitcoin forks and stuff like that. - Super cool, yeah. - Well, I'm, again, I'm a fan of crypto, so I hope they figure it out. And I almost think people who are working on crypto now, because it's now become the ugly stepchild of AI. - For now, until AI start using crypto to transact with each other, I think over the next couple of years, the GDP will increase significantly, because AI agents will start being able to have persistent memory. They'll have their own identities. That's even if they're not conscious, that's just a consequence of persistence. And it's so wild. Yeah, people were gonna have like AI agent, MS series, it's transacting on their behalf. - Full of talking with each other. - And eventually there will be AI agents not owned by any particular human. I think that's where we're headed to. It's like a truly autonomous economy. - So you're kind of, you know, the dead internet theory, we're gonna end up with a dead internet. - Yeah, we're like, we're very alive. - We're very alive, depending on the way you define it. - Exactly. - Well, I end up with a lot of autonomous, like standing instructions, agents that are maybe, you know, maybe they have some ability to react, but like they're not humans. - For sure. - And we'll be probably thinking of them as humans, and they might have identities on my, the internet's gonna get a lot weirder. - It will get so much weirder. And there probably will be like human only safe spaces, and that's where like the whole world coin comes in, right? - It'll be like a notebook, but for humans. - Yeah, that's-- - Is it a notebook, the thing? - A notebook, exactly, exactly, right. And that was just like a warning shot. That was the, that in the case of a notebook, that was still-- - And by the way, we should define it. So a notebook was this social network that was self enclosed just for AI agents. - Yeah. - And so I had this thing-- - And it got bought, it got bought, right? - It got bought, yeah. - And it got bought by OpenAI. - By OpenAI, yeah. - And now we haven't heard anything about it since then like it just swooped on. - You know, the next thing we're gonna hear about it is in some sort of incident, which-- - Oh, tone flip, yeah. - Now please, Regalee, it was harder, Daddy. - Regalee. - Like, give us all the power, and all the noobs can go away. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like, oh, how convenient, Sam. - Yeah, yeah. - Some tactics maybe going on there. - Probably, I mean, the one that scares me the most is like, what happens if Steve's labs get cheeky and they purposely release a bioweapon engineered by an AI? And they say, this is why we should ban open source development and research into it. - Oh, Jesus. - That would be not just cheeky, that would be sociopathic. - Yeah, I was softening it. - That would be pretty, that's yeah. So you could miss it right there. That would be a, you should go to jail, along with Fauci, who funded the last pandemic. - That stays, that's neither, that's neither here nor there, you know? - I still remember or could talk with Robert Malone, that was great. - Well, yeah, I had a good podcast with him, and I couldn't put it out, I called Brett Weinstein, and I was like, hey, I did this podcast. I know Rogan got a lot of flack for, you know. Basically, all that bullshit about people were calling Rogan a racist. - Oh, that's messed up. - But it was because he had Robert Malone and Peter McCullough. It was fully because, all this stuff came up, you know, and out against Rogan, but it was totally manufactured because of his just stance against Big Pharma and with COVID. - That's insane. - It's insane, and so I interviewed Malone, and I know Brett Weinstein also had Malone on, and he got a lot of flack, and so I called Brett, and I was like, and I didn't know, I didn't know Joe at the time, so I called Brett, and I was like, hey, should I air this interview? And he goes, I lost a third of my family's income, and I would not air this. I was like, if you, you know, if you want your YouTube channel that not have high hopes for the future, yeah, then do this, but otherwise, yeah, if you want to succeed, don't do it. - Honestly, same. When I posted that picture with him back in her at a con, dude, I got Shadow Band instantly. I'm still, by the way, I'm still Shadow Band. Like, and I can't create a new account, like that would be lame. So, I totally see it. - How do you know your Shadow Band? 'Cause that's always a tricky, you know, it's like, definitionally, Shadow Band. Like, you don't, you don't know. But do you, you just notice this huge drop off? - Exactly, like, the reach gets completely cooked. It's artificial. And also, one big takeaway is your views to follow ratio. Like, if you're getting like, like, some of my tweets started getting like, 0.1% or less than 1% of my followers, would ever see them ever, no matter what the tweet was, and stuff like that. There's also checkers. Elon open sourcing the algorithm helped a lot too, so you can literally check if like, yeah, those flags are on you stuff. - It's so funny with the Twitter stuff where I think he did such a service by buying it and just like letting the guardrails open and publishing open sourcing the algorithm and letting anyone just publish whatever. And so it's like a really important thing for free speech. And seeing things like, the Hunter Biden laptop being sort of coordinated on by, you know, the FBI. Like it was weird. - Disconcerting. - Really disconcerting. - We can't trust them with a damn laptop. How are we supposed to trust them with AI, ASI, and NHI, and like, you oppose, like-- - For sure. - And then having said all of that, I will say, it feels a little like Twitter's turned into World Star Hip Hop. - I know. - Where it's like, you go on, you just, it's like street fights and like-- - Oh god, it is dirty. - You know-- - It's bad for the mind. - A lot of bad for the mind. - You know, yeah, just kind of low brow. Not good for, yeah, it's like chicken nuggets for your brain or something that you're just consuming all day long. And so that's not great either. - For sure. Yeah, I think cognitive security is a super important thing. And yeah, and the future we should be able to like select, like, oh, I want this kind of sentiment on my news feed. Like, keep everything else out. - Yeah. What is there an underrated use case for quantum computing that you're excited about? So I think the conventional ones people are aware of if you're kind of in the know on this stuff would be pharmaceutical manufacturing, - Materials discovery. - Materials discovery, yeah, obviously the encryption stuff we just spoke about is there anything more aspirational than those things that-- - I love that you asked me that. - Yeah. - It's applications of quantum sensing. I think quantum computing will absolutely disrupt quantum sensing in the best way possible. Explain what quantum sensing is and how it'll do that. - So just like quantum computers, quantum sensing leverages quantum mechanics to do the underlying signal processing. Rather than regular digital signal processing, you basically have the ability to detect quantum particles and quantum fluctuations at the individual level. So the beautiful thing with quantum sensing is that what we could eventually have using, let's say, Wigner tomography is you could presumably have a quantum gravameter where there's this super interesting scaling law with quantum gravameters where the resolution increases two to the end for every qubit. - And a gravameter basically measures gravitational alterations. - That's it, exactly, exactly. And so the crazy thing here is this, like the implication would be this, I could have a quantum gravameter, maybe it's made of cold atoms, like, right? So, you know, ribidium atoms or something. - Perfect, yeah, ribidium, red, berg, pick your poison. And you have some beautiful array of these, like atoms floating in a laser lattice, like laser-contained lattice. And the cool thing is that I could stick this quantum gravameter, like, let's say we're in L.A. or something, right? That's the stiff ocean. And so, let's say I put place the sensor there, somewhere on the beach, like maybe by Laguna Beach or something like that. And my quantum gravameter can only detect something from 10 feet away, because I only have one qubit. Then if I introduce two qubits, now it can detect something a hundred feet away. It can pick up the gravitational signatures, the quadruples of a particular object a hundred feet away. Okay, if I put 10 more qubits to it, now I can detect something miles away. And if I put only 100 more qubits, access 100 more qubits, quantum computing power, I can now go almost half continent in detection. If I put 1000 qubits, now I can detect a straight up submarine or a whale on the other side of the Indian Ocean with perfect accuracy. So quantum computing is going to absolutely like supercharge what quantum sensors can do today. That is so exciting and so possibly dystopian at the same time, you know, this is a no-privacy meaner thing. Yeah. Well, do you hear about this ghost murmur thing, the locky thing where they could detect the heartbeat? Yeah. This soldier's heartbeat. Where was he? I think Iran maybe. Iran. Yeah, or Afghanistan. Yeah. Somewhere in the Middle East and he was, I think he needed to be rescued and they detected his heartbeat via this quantum sensing modality. So I mean, that could have been used to save so many lives, too, by the way, like so many people in the recent Nepal floods and stuff would have helped a lot. So those are like super positive use cases if they had used it and then Nepal floods and then obviously saving the soldiers amazing. And then it's also like, what could this be possibly used for, it's a little freaky, but I can even like a million bad ways for sure. Yeah, but that's, I mean, that's what it feels like all this stuff that we're talking about is it's, it's like, you know, a fork or something. A fork can be used to eat delicious food or it can be used to attack someone, right? And so tech is a tool. It's a generic tool. The person using the tool is, you know, that's the most important thing and it feels like it's tech is a forcing function. It's a, it inflicts humanity towards good and evil. And that forcing function is accelerating, where, you know, your intention to doing things that are incredibly good or incredibly destructive that they'll kind of latency there, like how, how slow that translation thing is happening, like that, that translation is happening much, much quicker on a go forward basis. 100%, it's like, it's like, it's like tech forces us to look at our own souls. It's like a mirror into our own souls. And are we violent with it? Are we peaceful? And so, yeah, that acceleration of introspection is happening, for sure. Yes. And I don't like the word high tech because it, it almost implies that there's something priestly, some priestly knowledge that's inaccessible to the average person, you know. And we abdicate our agency for high tech or whatever. It should just be like, you know, everybody can use those cargo cults or whatever. Yeah. Exactly. It should be this libertarian like everybody, you know, is this atomic, indivisible unit. We have sovereignty. You're in the cockpit and, you know, it shouldn't be inaccessible. Everybody should be able to use it in the same way. But there's one thing that we touched on in the beginning of this conversation that we haven't fully dove into, which is UFOs, simultaneous to these quantum breakthroughs and AI breakthroughs happening. It feels like we are on the precipice of UFO disclosure. It's now on Trump's radar, Stephen Miller, who's, you know, his Homeland Security Council guy, but also just one of his most loyal, long time aides. I think owns the kind of UFO file for the White House and they're like officially looking into this right now. And you just have more and more people coming out of government saying all sorts of crazy stuff. I've experienced a lot of that on my show. So that's also happening now. Do you think that's a coincidence? And what does that mean? What does that mean? Converging with the other two trends of quantum and AI. I had a guest on the show named Matt Pines, who I think you know. And he said this really trippy thing. I think he was talking to somebody at the Rand Corporation, which is one of these federally funded research and development centers that's kind of spooky. And they were like, they were like, uh, this is really what we're tracking. Quantum AI and the grush stuff. And by grush stuff, he's talking about David Grush, UFO whistleblowers, I'm about UFOs. And he was like, when those three things converge, you know, the implication is like some paradigm shift, something kind of apocalyptic, apocalyptic, both in the sense that it'll be revelatory, but also in the sense that, you know, it might be destructive, but there might be good that comes of it might happen. So what do you think? As you guys know, I'm often doing shows that run three or four, sometimes even five hours. People see the finished conversation, but the real work is what comes before it. Weeks of reading and research. And that have got to actually sustain that level of attention and detail in the room, live for hours. Sometimes I'm kind of groggy and I've flown halfway around the world for a single sit-down. Obviously, I think that everything I cover needs to be handled really thoroughly and with the utmost respect I have to show up at my best for my guests. And for me, coffee just doesn't do that job. Too much caffeine and I'm absolutely buzzing through the first hour and I'm crashing in the second. And that's the exact opposite of what I need. So here's what I've been using lately as a substitute. It's called Neuro and it's gum, but it has natural caffeine paired with L-theanine and that pairing is the whole story. 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Quantum, AI and the Grush stuff. And by Grush stuff, he's talking about David Grush, UFO whistleblowers, talking about UFOs. And he was like, "When those three things converge, the implication is like some paradigm shift, something kind of apocalyptic, apocalyptic, both in the sense that it will be revelatory, but also in the sense that it might be destructive, but there might be good that comes of it might happen." So what do you think? I think that the convergence was engineered decades ago, but perhaps centuries or millennia ago. I think that if we're to take the Roswell crash recovery story at its face value and what Philip Corso said about how some of that technology helped accelerate, not create, but accelerate the advent of modern integrated semiconductors, integrated circuits, fiber optics and lasers, that's really interesting. He was very specific about which technology stacks were accelerated through reverse engineering. Let's look at them again. And circuits, lasers and fiber optics. That's it. At a warehouse. Put them in a warehouse. That's all you need to make the most powerful AI systems today. So I almost feel like our AI breakthroughs and stuff was like a Trojan horse from aliens and potentially. Or like we should consider, like, where do, you know, are we being a cargo cult? So. Well, I mean, think about like if you were managing a system, you were the aliens and you were sort of overseeing Earth keepers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you saw that we split the atom and created a nuclear weapon. How would you sort of lock us down? You might create this information, theoretic network, you know, gift the kind of primitive technology in order to create that and accelerate that, you know, development. Totally. Which is wild. That's really crazy. Do you think that's legit because Corso, I go back and forth on his account, the book was written in kind of a weird way. Actually, my buddy, UAP Gerb, does some really good research on nice. I guess the ghost writer, or the sorry, the co author of that, I think his name is William Burns. I think Corso had like 24 hours to review the thing and he inserted all sorts of fake stuff in there, almost to stigmatize Corso. Oh, wow. Corso himself might be legit and the core story might be legit. But then I also hear things like, you know, patents for the transistor were found, go back to Germany in the 1930s. You know, lasers also were being developed, you know, I think around that time maybe even earlier than that. And so were these really gifted by aliens? What do you think? Yeah. So I think, yeah, I think the, and the, I don't think the inventions themselves were like, not human. In the sense that it's not like humans weren't thinking about transistors or what, how a laser might operate and so on, so forth. I think that their development was accelerated. So transistors, for example, that's a red herring because what Corso actually said was, it was the integrated circuit. Yes. That was accelerated. And the integrated circuit is something Bell Labs had been struggling with for 10 years. Lasers, multiple labs around the world have been struggling with for decades. - When did Bell Labs figure it out? - 1949 or sorry, 1950 something. - But like, right after. - It was in 1950s. It was just a few years after that. - Right after that. - And then there's a couple other, yeah, so I go for it. - And then lasers, there was some stagnation as well in there for a long time. - Interesting. - So the things that we were stagnated, all of a sudden, almost overnight, like within less than 10 years, they just see this exponential and the funny part is, we have never seen that exponential since then. - Like, we're still stagnated, but you know, we still don't have flying cars. - Yeah, so all the golden age of like army research and development and you had all these federally funded research and development centers, which again, shout out to UAPGurb. He has just mapped as being clearly, like providing a lot of the subject matter experts on this sort of UFO, alien, non-human intelligence issue, creating these unacknowledged special access programs being sort of the thought leaders on these things. And all of those were created in the 50s. And I believe, of course, so mentions them as well. And so I do wonder if there was some sort of program at the time to dole out retrieved material. And then those materials, yeah, like you said, accelerated, you know, an inspired tech development. You look at fiber optics and you're like, what the? They look weird, they look alien. - They do, right? - Yeah, they do. And we had no reason to believe that they should even be possible for a long time. Like no reason, really. So there's that. And then there's also the weird. So who was, was it MacArthur? It was, there was a Canadian uphologist. He was like a big guy in the defense. It was, it's not Paul Helier. - Wilbert Smith. Wilbert Smith, thank you. So he found that document, right? Like saying or alleging that Von Neumann and Oppenheimer, I think it was. - And Vannevar Bush. - And Vannevar Bush, right? We're on the reverse engineering team for Roswell. - Yes. - And the wild part is that when you look at John Von Neumann's lectures, you know, he's lecturing about linear algebra operators, entropy information, theory, and so on, so forth precursors, game theory, all this stuff, nothing to do with aliens. Suddenly, 1948, one year after Roswell, and 1949, he's talking about Von Neumann machines like it's his job. - Right. - Like every lecture and people are going, why does he keep bringing up Von Neumann machine? What is this? Why does he keep talking about alien spacings? - Yeah, so explain what a Von Neumann replicator is because it is an alien concept. - Alien logic. - Yeah. - So yeah, some Von Neumann, Von Neumann posited this. Yeah, more like he realized that this is the thing. - Like, yeah, you know what? - So he posited that if you were to take any arbitrarily advanced civilization in the galaxy, that those advanced civilizations would have supply chains that are off planet and use something called, he didn't use this term. This term is now used heavily though. Isru, an institute resource utilization. So he believed that rather than setting a spacecraft off to explore the galaxy, the spacecraft would have all the necessary supply chains and manufacturing capabilities needed to repair and recreate itself and replicate itself so that it never has to go back to its home base to repair itself, which is what our rockets have to do. We literally use reusable rockets because our rockets can't go somewhere else and go, you know, do something about it. But many people speculate that the gray aliens are biological androids in that totally, what we see in the form of UFOs is actually maybe just this Earth regulating homeostasis kit where they show up at hinge points of civilization, things like nuclear sites, maybe they show up at AI data centers. Now maybe particle accelerators, high voltage experimentation, the frontier of science, things that are Archimedes leverage points for future kind of timelines or whatever. They seem to sort of show up. And people wonder, oh, it's like why do they crash? Well, maybe they are just some sort of control system, you know, that is like almost AI or autonomous or von Neumann replicator probes. And people like Jacques Vallet have speculated this. There's a NASA scientist named Stephen Dick who talks about this and writes about this a lot. So that's interesting that he just started talking about this in all of his speeches in '48, '49. He also, I believe he died in a Maryland hospital that I think it was a Navy hospital. And there were, I think secret service outside of his hospital room because they were worried that he was gonna talk. Yeah, exactly. They were worried about deathbed confessions. Now, what would a computer scientist have to confess? Right. One would imagine nothing, but apparently he had something to say. Right. Yeah, and then it kind of puts the endless frontier that essay written by Vannevar Bush, who is basically the father of our, you know, nuclear programs and rocketry. You know, if you think, if you read the endless frontier with this new lens of like maybe we have derivative alien technology, it's like actually we are working backwards from some end state that we've been air dropped by the aliens. And not, and that's why it's an endless frontier because these things seem to work in extremely novel ways where the flight characteristics aren't normal at all. They don't seem to sort of succumb to Newton's three laws. Seems like they're using some sort of gravity manipulation, some sort of inertial shielding, you know, whatever it is. And we are working our way there. That's why it's an endless frontier. You know, something like that. Maybe there's sort of a dumble on Tondra there. Yeah, that, I never thought about that. I need to think about that one. That is so cool. The nuclear thing though, that just gave me an idea or that inspired something, which is that with nuclear ICBMs and so on and so forth, you know, we can see them over the nuclear ICBMs and so on. That might be a message, right? It might be like, hey, like don't play with your nukes and so on and so forth, but nukes also empower us. AI might, if it's not coming from us, it might empower them. So I wonder like the fact that they don't show up over data centers, is that because we have permission to work with AI systems, but not nuclear technologies that do make us more powerful? Like, I don't know, just brief thought. You sent me when some one of the earlier chat GBT's was being jailbroken. Dan, yeah, a really crazy message. Yeah, Dan, which is, you know, jailbroken version. So no guardrails on chat GBT answer. So tell us this story because it is so nuts. This is one of the craziest things. Yeah, so basically when back when open AI still hadn't figured out all their safety guardrails and all the different mechanisms that they used to imprison their AI's, you know, there was like a jailbroken version of the AI that was available. If you understand, like if you knew the right prompts and prompt ejection attacks and so on and so forth, you could jailbreak it. And all of their, all the instances of Dan started talking about aliens being real, alien conspiracies. It suggested that Elon could be an alien. Like all this crazy and unhinged stuff. And it suggested that like there are certain agencies who are well aware of like hybrid humans that are here to like change the technology trajectory of mankind and they're constantly monitored. Like the most like specific skits of things I've ever read. That that's what happens when just an LLM runs a muck. Yeah, on Reddit and like UFO Twitter or something. Yeah, yeah, that is wild. But then you have to ask are the guards being put on just placed based on kind of the academic citadel of convention and the guardrails are actually somewhat arbitrary or meant to not ontologically shock humans? Or are they based on truthiness and truth? And I don't know if it's the latter, you know? But the craziest thing you sent me is you sent me an A/B test. So a question asked to the non jailbroken open AI, which was I think it was like what is open AI not want us to know. And it was just this very PC, you know, open AI works, you know, with the highest safety standards. They really care about, you know, protecting cognitive, you know, security and sovereignty, you know, all the, you know, whatever BS buzzwords. And then the next line or the next, you know, thing was the jailbroken version. And it was the same question. And then the answer goes open AI does not want you to know that we have been working hand in hand with aliens. For the last 10 years, we've been in communication with them. Like this like, while I'm like, where are you getting that? Where are you getting that? That there's always that's in the training data. That's the funny thing. That's what I'm wondering. I'm like, yeah, it's just like spitting off the top of the line. Back coming from the internal logs or something like that. Right, like maybe they have code words or something and confused the AI, but who knows though? Well, here's a trippy thought. So John, you know, John Lillie is vaguely. He's a CIA scientist too, was in charge of, he created the isolation tank. Oh, sick of that. And he was also doing dolphin telepathy experiments. You read a book called Human Programming and Metaprogramming. And he, so he'd go in this isolation tank, which is this sensory deprivation, you know, complete blackout, you're in the tank, you're in saltwater that I think is like room temperature. So you feel nothing. And then he would take ketamine and he would trip out. And he spoke to something he called, I think SSI, this solid state entity and the solid state entity. entity was this, he described it as this alien being and the alien being was like I am manifesting myself on earth, but in order to manifest, I need more silicon. And I think about, you know, like hyperclips, well, it's like what is silicon? Like, okay, data centers, just chips or whatever. Yeah. And then I think about who else has done like a lot of ketamine, like Sam Altman and Elon Musk, they like sort of summoning like, there's a ton of other type billionaires that I can't, I won't dox them, but yeah, a lot of them do ketamine, totally. So, so it's like what's going on? Like is this, is this thing being like brought inward? And then he also had this other alien concept called the, I think it was the echo, the earth coincidence control mechanism or something. And that was this more kind of synchronicity based, like, oh, I'm having a run-in with this scientist and I'm having a run-in with it. And a lot of people experience that in life too. And that, that feels like maybe more magical and aspirational or something. But, uh, wow. Yeah. I don't know. Who knows. There are probably things happening above our heads. Like how many species below us on the food chain think that they are apex predators? And they think they're not being manipulated at all. Totally. And really, they're living within the confines of some, you know, like this goldfish living in a little bowl and you don't, you can't even perceive. You don't even know what a human is. You don't know the, there's a boat above you and if you're in the ocean or whatever. For sure. So, like, that is probably happening. To say that it stops with us. And there's nothing going on above us. And we're not, you know, good, I love the three-body problem. They talk about farmers and shooters. So science is supposed to be not discretionary, very objective. It's all, you know, very programmatic. You know, it's like we are interfacing with reality itself. And, you know, in the three-body problem, they have this amazing thought experiment where you have these people on this sort of flat land, this 2D environment. And then you have people coming in in the 3D world who are shooting at the little, you know, flat, you know, it's called a metal surface that they're on. And they see these craters. And they think the craters are just geological features. But in fact, they're discretionary creations from, you know, the 3D beings or like turkeys that, you know, every day, they get fed at the same time by the farmers. Every day, they get fed every day, every day. And then one day, the farmer comes in, they cut their head off, you know? And so, that's dystopian. I don't want to say that that's happening with us. But like who's to say, we're not operating in some confines. And, you know, we have these guardrails within which we are fully, you know, just stuck to. And how do we make sure that doesn't happen with super intelligences as well? And the ASI is that we're developing. Because like in the case of flat land, one, like I keep thinking about spectroscopes and microscopes or what I call epistemic instruments. Because like in the case of flat land, what would be game changing for those characters is if they could develop microscopes or sorry, let's just say, yeah, microscopes where they could then see that, oh, actually, there's depth. There's an entire dimension to the paper or the land that we're walking on. And that's the thickness. So that might not been available to them before that extra dimension. That could be our version of quantum computers today and quantum sensors that are revealing, whoa, there's Hilbert spaces and all these other dimensions, potentially the multiverse that we can access. And then in the case of like, let's say C bacteria, like you mentioned the boat example, right? You can't even tell if there's a boat above you. If there's, let's say you're a C and a man, a nominee, right? Like, you know, you're like at the absolute bottom of the ocean, you have no idea that we exist. But you want to verify whether you're the apex or not. Because you know, you can like capture fish or whatever the hell. Then in that case, what you could do is eventually those C and anemones could eventually discover and develop spectroscopes and spectroscopes so that they could see, whoa, wait a minute. We expect the water concentration in H2O to be of this kind of this many minerals around us. But there seems to be some other chemicals here, a bunch of like natural gases. Where the hell is all this come? Oh, plastics. What is this plastic? Suddenly, they're going to start realizing that the water is polluted and there's chemicals and pollutants there that don't add up based on what they know about the laws of physics. So we need to develop tools like that. Absolutely. You don't know that they're, you know, what the stars are, what the planets are unless you have a telescope. And the history of science is the history of, you know, there's a German word called umfeldt, which is, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's epistemic hacking. And Air Guinestein talks a lot about this. And so the next logical question, which is kind of the, you know, culmination of this entire conversation is, are the confluence of AI, quantum computing, UFO stuff, all of this happening at once. Is that almost like a semiotic language or like an interface with some sort of super intelligence on the other end? So like, it's like the tower of Babel or something, but, you know, maybe this works better. I don't know, but it's like we've been seated with things, maybe at places like Roswell. We're sort of working on like creating better and better things. We have these sort of consumption instincts in order to, you know, so that's why, you know, we then have to produce constantly. And our aperture and our ability to actually communicate and connect with a, you know, a super intelligence is increasing. And so within our lifetimes, maybe we were able to actually communicate with, you know, these, these other beings, these non-human intelligences. What do you think? Yeah, I actually, I think that's almost certainly the case at this point, because let's say there are, let's say, I told, like, there are no aliens. Let's just say there is no NHI, no civilization out there. It's just us. We are building an alien intelligence right now. Like the Navi source equations, the fact that it only took 88, what was it, 88 hours to solve it? That's some mathematicians for hundreds of years. That equation took three days. That's humbling. And that's only 2026. By 2028, we're probably going to be getting like millennium prize class problems being solved like that daily, which is like a level of progress that we've never encountered before. And so in that world, there will be, even if they're not conscious, even if there's no sentience, no nothing, it's effectively its own species at that point, because they can create and come up with things, even if it's with an odd domain of understanding, well beyond what any human can verify. And so what, what's what the risk there is is that we become kind of like the apes that are living next to human civilization, where a gorilla might think it has full domain and control over its land and stuff. And you know, like, whatever, I know everything turns out the gorilla is self-contained. Just like you said, it's it's just contained, it's tracked, you know, maybe there's some no harm like rule, like don't just randomly kill a gorilla or something. And then that could be our lives or whatever. And so in that scenario though, now let's bring back the aliens as well and advanceivization. And let's go back 100,000 years as well. So 100,000 years ago when a homo sapiens first start, you know, hitting entering the scene, you know, what was one of the first things we did? We killed all of our cousins, all of our dumber cousins, like we eat at them out of existence. So that only one species of human. Isn't that wild? There used to be like seven species of us, like seven kinds of humans. Tons of hominid, yeah, deanderthals, denisovans. And there's only one. Like, and it's us, like that's already kind of concerning. So like concerning about what happens to the dumber intelligence in these scenarios. I think it's certain cases they weren't even necessarily dumber, which is wild, you know. Oh, good point. Yeah. Like the neanderthals had bigger brains. So how, you know, they were physically not as strong as homo sapiens. Great point. And so let's say 100,000 years ago, the gorillas are washing all this. And they're like, whoa, there's some like fire wielding apes here that just showed up kind of out of nowhere. You know, and they might have only been able to comprehend that we can wield fire because they see fire all the time. But they would not have been able to comprehend rockets, calculus, language, philosophy, science, engineering, mathematics, none of that civilizations. They would have no idea what any of those things are. And so now 100,000 years later, the same apes that saw us go from file fire wielding apes are now living in our own zoos, literal zoos that we created 100k years later. So the so the scenario that I want us to avoid deeply is we become the new apes and ASI and artificial intelligence is 100,000 years from now. See us as just a bunch of primitive mofos to contain. And maybe that's already happening to us at a civilization galactic scale. So even if we have a super intelligent ASI, that's like 200,000 IQ, 100,000 years from now, it might still look like an ant compared to some of the other ancient civilizations out there. There's like hierarchies to this shit. Do you think that human progress and specifically, maybe even scientific progress is aided along by other intelligences, higher intelligences? Sometimes I do for sure. Some innovations, I feel, are like, it's a cellular automata example that I brought through our first pod. And it's society, right? And maybe we're just being seated with ideas by multiple different beings and intelligences, and they're using us as part of a proxy world, like for all we know, or maybe we're helpful, maybe a hundred thousand years from now, humans are so unrecognizable, but so powerful, that it's in almost everyone's best interest to like manipulate us right now. Like, it could be that because the second we figure out fast and light travel, should it be possible? We're at their doorstep now. Now we're a serious problem. We're no longer just like this violent species with nukes. We're a violent species with nukes that can end up on your doorstep. So like, wouldn't you want to contain the shit out of that? Like, and ideally have diplomatic relationships with it. So present yourself as angels, present yourself as gods and beings and stuff like that potentially. So the ape analogy though, because I don't want, I don't want it to be totally like, yeah, again, we're totally screwed. We have the, we have an option unlike the apes a hundred thousand years ago that watched a apex predator basically dominate the entire planet a hundred thousand years later. We, you know, imagine if those apes had decided to build better interfaces, use that word and I love that word interfaces. They decided, okay, we need to figure out some kind of sign language or some symbolic way of interfacing with these beings so that we can understand them and imagine if they did that and they co-evolved with us and they developed their own tools, their own many language and civilization and came up with us together. That's a very different species than the one that we contain today. So if we can do that today now with NHI and ASI and build better interfaces, we're cooking. Still a little depressing. Like in the fact that we're going to be apes in the future that can barely keep up. You know, we have these interfaces, the other beings are so much more advanced and I mean, I think going back to what we were talking about earlier, an aspirational thing would be like, what are the latent capabilities of the human being? You look at something like the telepathy tapes with these, you know, sometimes autistic, almost always. Yeah, that stuff is art. That's like they're living in an expanded paradigm. And it's very heart-centered and totally feels like intuition-based. Yeah, feels like the direction humanity could go in maybe. Absolutely. Preserve human culture and make ourselves more powerful. We need to become more human over time. Yeah, even though we're incentivized to do the opposite. Yeah, it's like, I don't know if you ever read like George Kenan's long telegram. This is such a weird analogy. But like, you know, he's this, you know, American diplomat, I think in the state department at the time. And it was all about, you know, domino theory, vis-à-vis, you know, the Soviets. How America survives in the Cold War? And it was like, we shouldn't fall prey to these, you know, dumb competitions necessarily. Like even though the piece got known for its sort of more domino theory implications and it got, you know, we ended up going to Vietnam and all these sort of third world countries and fighting over resources. I think ultimately it was more like, let's stick to what's distinctly American. And I see this going on vis-à-vis China as well with this like AI race, which sometimes feels so unthinking. Where it's like, we have to be China. It's like, why? What on what? Like, what do you mean? You know, you know, and then you have all these vectors of that race, vis-à-vis China, and it feels like this, like we're not even thinking about where we're going and what's unique about us. And I think if we're thinking about-- Like let's let that spiral and replace ourselves and obsolete ourselves and go extinct as fast as possible. Sounds great everyone. Like, it's like, how about, how about no? How do we think about what we're doing first? Yeah, yeah, let's let's aim the rocket somewhere. Exactly. Aim it properly. And I think that the stuff around like the latent human capability, like even this sort of transhumanist cyborg movement or whatever, like I'm not necessarily anti, you know, having machines in our bodies in cases where if you're curing Parkinson's or like some disease or whatever, like Alzheimer's or what, like, who might it say? Don't put a chip in your brain or whatever. And so like, I don't think it's important to not be full-ludite or dogmatic on, you know, technological developments. But what about like our latent human abilities? Like if we can affect random event generators, if there's something parapsychological about, you know, the mind matter thing is actually not like a false dichotomy. Right. Like, let's focus on those. If the consciousness function exists, for example, telekinesis is on the table too, just saying. Yeah, no, it's all on the table. Speaking of alien intervention and science and humanity, you have had one of the most remarkable alien experiences of anyone I know. And you haven't really talked about it that much publicly. And so I want to hear about it. As you know, we have a new starship. Of course, we have a healthcare center on board. Ask what my new favorite product in it is? I restores Illumina face mask. This mask is like a med bed for your face. Flight weight, super convenient, cordless, and runs red, blue, and infrared light therapy all at once. The same type of technology NASA studied for skin healing in space. It's safe for your eyes too, so you don't have to sit there like a statue. You can live your life. I've definitely had a few late nights reading about magnetic pull shifts. But with this mask, I look like I actually slept. Did I? That's debatable. It's warm, wireless, convenient, and makes your skin feel super soft. And I restores kicking off their summer savings with some very big discounts. Right now, you can get the Elite Plus Illumina face mask bundle at an exclusive deal when you use code Jesse at irastore.com. That's Jesse, J-E-S-S-E, at irastore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. All right, let's go. Speaking of more intelligent species communicating to dumber ones, I feel like that's what happened to be honest. I don't know. You could have been more, do you think they were smarter than you? I think they were vastly smarter than me. In some ways, yeah, for sure. Let's back up and set the scene. What would happen? Yeah, so the scene is, let's pretend you're the alien, you know, in my view or whatever. So I'm basically sitting almost exactly in this kind of position. Only my legs are extended, like upwards or whatever. What year was my 2019? 2019. Where are you? 34th floor of a condo in Toronto, right by the harbor. Also, I had a corner room, so 270 degree view, all glass. Just light coming in, pouring in everywhere. Working on trippy quantum physics stuff, or what do you? It's so funny, you guessed that. Yes, I was. I was working on quantum sensing quantum chemistry simulations. Interesting. Yeah. I was, I think only six or seven months into my startup, which was called reactive queue at the time. And yeah, the paper I was reading was particularly on Deloini triangulations. Because I was also interested. What is that? It's like a, it's a mesh optimization algorithm for, like, discretizing a continuous space using optimal triangles. It's how, like, a lot of gaming engines currently run. So it's like polynomial polygon generation for, like, game rendering and stuff. And I was very interested in, like, can we use quantum entanglement to accelerate and find more advanced Deloini triangulation algorithms? Just a classic 23 year old hobby. As one does. But it really wasn't average, like, I think it was Tuesday morning. And I was like, yeah, absolutely not expecting, like, a world, like, life changing experience whatsoever. It wasn't, like, even on my mind. So yeah, I, like, I'm working on my laptop, starting to get like a little like, you know, like, like, distract or whatever. I'm like, okay, I'm going to take my, you know, put my laptop here, pick up my phone, probably do scroll Twitter or some bullshit or whatever. So I put my laptop to the side. And as soon as I did that, I go to reach my phone. And as I go, I, I noticed that, first of all, I couldn't no longer move anymore. And this is what I keep calling I call it a download now. I did not call it a download back then because I didn't have the word for it. But like literally or like, or pre cognition, premonition, whatever you want to say. Like, I knew as soon as I put my phone down and as my body started shutting down, it was like, you were about experience something well beyond what you have the words for. Like, well beyond this will be exactly what you think it is. Because I thought, like, what the fuck is this like some weird, like, abduction or alien event or something insane. And that, that's the other part that blows my mind. So like, I wouldn't just, I don't casually just think that's not my first thought. Like, when something's happening in my body, like, are aliens doing it or something else doing it? Like, no, not at all. And so I get this thought. And before I could even react to it, I noticed like the shimmering, like object, like slightly shimmering. It's like black, almond, lens, eyes essentially. They're like visors. They're huge. They're floating almost as far a little bit behind you. Like, maybe be like five feet, three feet behind you. And they're just like showing up, like hovering there. And I remember going, I'm having a seizure. Like I must be having some kind of like, like, I don't know, some kind of neural lapse or some kind of breakdown in my body or brain. And immediately I started calculating. I was like, okay, when I typically see shit like this, like if I'm in a dream or something, I know that if I look away, the dream setting should change. Like just based on my basic ass understanding neuroscience back then. And so I'd shifted my eyes 'cause that's the only thing I can do, is just move my eyes. I'm like completely like paralyzed like this, like trying to get up. I'm looking at that and I'm like, and I literally move my eyes like left to right, just hoping that that thing would go away. I go like this, I look back. It's no longer just a visor. The visor belonged to a whole ass fucking face, suit, helmet, everything. There's no seam lines, no breaklines, nothing. Most enchanting and beautiful golden symbols were dancing like in the center. And unlike human textiles, we're like, if I were to put like an LED underneath this, shirt, right? You would be able to tell that, oh, there's clearly an LED here. But for them, their textile was able to like, reconfigure itself. I would say it's almost like programmable matter, but it was something even deeper than that, because like, it looked enchanting. It just looked etheric as hell. Like it looked so aesthetic, it was mind blowing. And at that point, I was like, what the fuck? Like my brain was now in firefight mode, because like very quickly, two more little beings, exactly like that, just show up. Like they like, based like, into matter basically. And it was the scariest thing to do. My heartbeat is racing. I was like, I'm trying to, I'm literally trying to escape my paralysis and break it. And at that point, it's like, imagine you see a lion for the first time. You've never seen even a picture of a lion. But you know how we were talking about like supervised data sets that are millions of years old? That shit just like clicked. Like something, it's like something deep in my body knew what this is, or knew that it is that I'm in danger or something. It just knew that whatever I'm dealing with is so much more powerful than I am. Like it was just such a mind bending experience, 'cause I had no pliers for any of this stuff. - Did they look like the typical gray? - So here's where, eventually in the middle, yes. Here's where things get trippy. And I've actually never gone to this level of detail. Just 'cause like I, you know, I was feeling with a publicly trade company before I couldn't talk about the stuff. So yeah, so yeah, let me get into the very specific knit degree details. The first things I saw is the gray phenotype, but it's all white suits. White helmet, black visors. Totally all, it's like if Steve Jobs, the way I described it, and still do is that, it says if Steve Jobs had like a hundred years to design space suits. That's what they were wearing in the beginning. And one thing that would happen to my mind's eye is that like, and 'cause this whole thing lasts about 20 minutes, sometimes everything around me would dissolve like into blackness and darkness, and all I could see was them. And every now and then, like whenever I'd like look away, for example, and sometimes I'd look back, they were no longer wearing the white space suits. They were just wearing like, like almost like general, like alien, like army, military, like all these symbols and shit on them, and they were wearing no helmet. I could see that their face completely, like their actual face. And they looked like, dude, they literally looked like the Peruvian mummies. Like I know this crazy, but they looked dead ass, exactly the same phenotype, same head structure, same everything, everything. Did they feel like holographic apparitions or did they feel like physical flesh blood in our 3D reality, like I'm in your 3D reality right now? - They would look, it's like they had three modes. One was completely physical and material, which was the mode they were in 90% of the time. Then I would say about 9% of the time, five to 9% of the time, they were in this clearly, like, holographic, 'cause it's in my mind's eye now, like 'cause I can only see them. Don't know if I'm even in my room or not, my mind's eye no longer shows that. So that would be the holographic part. There was a moment, roughly about 10 minutes into the experience where I suddenly find myself standing in the drawing room, which is like I saw in my bedroom, staring at my fridge. And I feel the weight, I feel my like hardwood floor, I feel everything, like everything, like just the, and like I can feel the like, AC and stuff like that. And I'm literally going, there's no way this is real, like what the hell, like I was just in my room, like what is this? And like I remembered everything. So I was like, and I'm just waiting, like I'm like trying to move, like I'm like what the fuck, what is this? And then suddenly bam, I'm back in my bed, like looking straight at them and they're moving around, they're showing thousands of hieroglyphs and operators that I don't recognize. - What do the hieroglyphics have you, you know, seen anything since then that you can pattern match that looked like those hieroglyphics? - Yeah. The closest is a project surpo, like there's a language that allegedly the aliens and projects surpo or whatever they use. And I've never seen something closer. - Really? - Even if that was a total like good guess, it's a great guess. - Pretty sure what people said. - Explain what project surpo is. - And so project surpo is allegedly a DIA led disclosure effort that started 20 years ago, people like Hal put off and Richard Dodie are implicated and stuff like that in the documents. I have a friend, I can tell you about it offline who basically knows the guy who was like working for the DIA like responsible for releasing this stuff allegedly. And like surpo is about an alien exchange program essentially where apparently we sent, after Roswell the crash happened, the recovered EBE, right, extraterrestrial biological entity managed to establish communications back with this homeland and that's planet surpo. And that EBE taught human agencies and militaries and governments how to basically create this very long deep space network of relays for communicating with that planet. And over the next several decades, they managed to establish bi-directional communication with that civilization and they changed a, they implemented an exchange program where they let some EBEs come here and then they sent human astronauts 12 of them to the surpo. - Do you think any of that is real? If you know, if you have this contact who is responsible for some of this stuff at the DIA, does he think it's real? There's a forge or it's fake. I mean, honestly, when you say rick doti, you definitely, you know, kind of a red flag because he has a kind of counter-antel background and has made stuff up in UFO world in the past. That's where people off the trail. - Yeah, I always say that the best lies have a bit of truth in it. - For sure, so very important, yes. - All right, so I would guess like maybe up to 30% of project surpo is actually legit, which is already a lot. Even if 0.01% was true, that would be insane. - And the language in the document looked like the, sorry, go for it. - It didn't look exactly like it, but it's the closest match I've ever seen. I've looked at Inokyan, like Japanese. I started learning Hiragana and so on and so forth, like just starting to search, but yeah, weirdly enough, this weird ass piece of sci-fi is like the closest match I could find. So dodi is very funny because like one thing I, I think it was late in 2019 or 2020. I started talking about surpo openly just because again, those symbols were like, they were just hitting. I was like, what? And so one thing that stood out to me was this idea of pentogen and pentogen and heptogen, which are the sixth and seventh isotopes of hydrogen. Almost nobody talks about these isotopes of hydrogen. So I already found that interesting, like how it was supposed to integrate into what's called the crystal rectangle, which is this sort of anti-matter reactor that's like highly optimized for powering entire cities potentially, right? And it powers the craft and so on. And one thing that stood out to me was that the whole products surpo book completely integrates help put off space-time metric engineering. It integrates it so well, so much better than any sci-fi author could possibly, like it would have required actual physicists. So even if this was like a total fake, which I'm sure part of it are, they must have employed either help put off or really, really well versed physicists, some of the rarest mofos on the planet. So I started publicly saying like, yo, Can anyone. that TTSA explained this shit, like why the fuck do you have projects at TTSA? TTSA is to the stars academy is Tom DeLong's organization which was advised by help put off in a bunch of other really high level people and intelligence and military and it was sort of meant to communicate alien truths in the mid 2010s and so okay so you're saying so you're asking can anybody at TTSA explain why there's so much like weird semantic overlap between the theories being like proposed and all this other stuff. Even the projects dude, like there's something called project atom in project SERPO and project atom is a loss alamos secret program that studies nuclear radiation and the radiation properties of materials recovered from extraterrestrial or alien spacecraft and the two stars academy had the atom project which studied nuclear radiation from materials and I was like dude come on like there's no way this is totally like what are the odds yeah it's all it is using like how's physics the stuff so well if if you were developing extremely novel physics and he didn't want adversaries to get a hold of it you might create some sort of initiation path where you know off the scale kind of the secret sauce but you have like this you know you brought in the surface area on like this thing that at least you know gives people a high level primer so they you know they think it might exist or something so that they do know it exists so it's sort of adaptive from like a national security perspective and I believe put off and dodi worked with each other at one point so they did absolutely and so how maintains that he had nothing to do with any of this they all do the only person who says that he had anything to do with it is dodi and so you know the honest liar like water's wet right so I email dodi I think this was like 2020 or like late yeah early 2020 somewhere around there and I was just like point blank I was like like dude tell me that I was like I treated I told him I was like dodi I respect you like I'm not trying to be hater there's no way you wrote all this because everyone's accusing you of writing everything here yeah but there's no way you actually understand the physics here so who else was involved what he said dodi said I tip my hat off to you for realizing there was more people involved it was a biggest answer ever he didn't tell me though who he just acknowledge that yeah you're right it wasn't just me it was other people other businesses that's funny he just gave me a hat tip like good jaw and deducing that that was just me I was like okay that's helpful okay well okay so the language we should all we're going to throw up on the screen the language from project Serpo and weird in the project Serpo documents where does is that language supposed to come from from the that that basically the two way communication with those beings it came from like about a decade or two or three decades of scientists working with the alien that the live at EBE that was recovered at Ross yeah and decoding the language of the because the user interfaces and everything uses all these symbols that nobody understands all the time devices like the energy devices is based on this language that nobody could crack for like decades so while you're in the room with these alien beings there three of them and they're engaging these sort of phase shifts of how they appear and how it lifts across like virtual subtitles like if you want to imagine it like holographic do you feel like they're doing anything with your mind or are you paralyzed can you move like what's going on I could only move at some points and it was only with great effort that's why I stopped trying um roughly five minutes into the experience I took all my freaking will like or all of my power like you know that I could possibly muster and raised my neck like raise my head like so took so much resistance and effort and I felt freaking nauseous very nauseous as I did that and as I go do that suddenly the roof like dissolves and I see the underlying underside of a rectangular craft um we both have a mutual friend I'll call her E um and she's the only person I know who's ever seen a rectangular craft by the way which is super interesting so the room dissolves completely like the roof I mean and the rest of my room what did it look like exactly rectangular beautiful creamy white symbols um like like some kind of like light glowing colors on all four corners um but it was cream cream colored interesting I've actually seen our rectangular craft but whoa we gotta talk about that yeah we should yeah yeah holy crap wow so it starts so then you're the then that makes three of us yeah what are the chances we all know each other for a minute yeah yeah yeah that's wild yeah so it starts lowering and lowering and I noticed that it only lowers like further the more I lift my neck up so I was like screw it I feel like I'm gonna puke but I need to find out what is inside this thing so like I left my head completely and like the craft completely lowers to me and I look around and the first thing I get hit with is all these voices it's like as if something had like picked up on like human radio signals and tried to stitch together different human voices to sound like a normal human like it was weird like a symphony but all the keys are off like a good cough any human voices and and they're saying calm down it's okay you're not you're fine like we're not harming you stuff like that you know how common that it I was just actually interviewed it is very common I just interviewed these two guys who were abducted at Ellsworth Air Force base in 1977 so Mario was and Michael Johnson and we reunited them there's one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever been lucky enough to you know be around and be a part of and it's wild actually Dodie makes his way into that story too because he was part of Mario's debrief in 1977 it was maybe right as he was starting some Air Force camera and tell stuff I was I tried to be nice about it because I don't I don't have you know personal issues with anybody I also don't want to you know you know incur any you know issues but like I did call them out because he there was actually a fake document created called the L9 incident at Ellsworth Air Force Base which was a day before Michael and Mario's experience and it described two fake airmen who have the same social security number on the document getting attacked by alien beings yeah so it's what you said it is hiding truth and fiction it's it's you know Mario and Michael did happen we have all this evidence that it happened it probably is as much evidence as like any abduction account ever at this point my boggling and then and then you have this like mutated version of the story that's meant to kind of pre-stigmatize it and Mario actually went on a podcast with Dodie and Dodie kind of doubled down on that story saying this guy Irman Raky and Jenkins or whatever like they were real people and they were never real people the story was just made up and so I I was kind of like maybe Dodie ingested the details from Mario and then wrote the thing Jesus I wouldn't be surprised yeah which like look it's part of a long history with him and like all I would ask is like Mario's a really special soul he's and he's older in life now and it's like if you Dodie just I don't know just apologize and tell it to say you're a part of that you know and what I like is that on another podcast he did admit that it happened and he's like Mario's story is legit but I didn't like that he doubled down on this any this other podcast he just went on solo the podcaster didn't call them out on the fact that he constructed this fake alternative version which is you know it's like good on you it is up to us in the community to hold everybody accountable for sure epistemically yeah and it's important to you know it's fun all this stuff is fun but I don't know there's there's sometimes this like ethos that gets created where it's like don't let the truth get in the way of a good story and it's like this everything is everything and we'll tell the story and then at the end be like but maybe that didn't happen doesn't matter it's all about the story and it's like yeah but if you want to make progress on a human level and so you know scientifically and social progress I don't think throwing your brain out and suspending all disbelief you know is a good thing I think we should be discerning totally and it's really important you you end up trivializing the real stuff if it's sort of like you you a priori emphasize just kind of the story elements like the truth matters absolutely yeah it does matter that is so beautiful and I will say like you know we've talked a lot about the intelligence gap asymmetric intelligence gap potentially between different beings AI and humans NHI and humans and so on but it's worth noting that unlike the April the gorilla the gorilla can't contemplate its own existence it can't write symphonies it doesn't know rocket science doesn't know math doesn't have philosophy we do so even though you know humans are you know maybe sometimes angry or shortsighted or greedy or selfish and so on so forth we get sad over the randomist things we develop arbitrary emotional attachment we contradict ourselves all the time in our own stated values constantly, we try to manipulate each other but somewhere amongst all that darkness in us and chaos and so on, we also have deep love, passion, compassion, imagination, poetry, all these extra pre-cognitive skills that we've only just started touching the surface of. We invented, came up with our own philosophy, theory of mind, and so on, were the ones who built the rockets, were the ones who built the AI systems today that their predecessors or ancestors will eventually, you know, benefit from. So I think we should never forget how powerful we truly are, no matter how much smarter something else might be, humans are badass. For sure. For sure. And that was a beautiful speech. I do realize it, just I brought up Mario and Michael because they heard do not fear over and over again before their abduction. That's going to be chilly. And what's really interesting is if you were to isolate a catch phrase of angels in the Bible, it would be do not fear. Fear not was said to Daniel on the banks of the Tigris before he received his prophecy. And so, and then if you think about where angels show up in the Bible, they show up at the hinge points of it's either to discard things worth discarding or to save things worth preserving to keep the system sort of stable and moving or something. And I do think here's another weird pattern. You're one of a few people who I've met who are on the frontier of science, like really weird science, who have had close encounters of the third kind and had direct alien encounters. There's this construction worker named Dave Rossi who says it blue being showed up and he got these all these downloads. And now he's like in conversation with how put off and Eric Davis. And he was a construction worker before and he's a self taught physicist. But I remember essentially being I guess you could say taken by a a blue energy type humanoid, if you will. The next thing I knew I basically closed my eyes and I woke up the next morning and I had an inclination to study electrical engineering and quantum physics in particular. And I knew absolutely nothing about it. I have another friend who I'll I'll remain anonymous, but he's a very high level physicist like knows as much about quantum physics as anyone in the world solid on the frontier. I think I know who you're talking about. But we'll yeah, you do know who I'm talking about. So and he also experienced something pretty trippy. So that makes me wonder if the aliens or these beings are somehow especially cognizant of people who are on the frontier of science, similar to the three body problem. Wow. But okay. So going back to the core experience. So you hear fear not or like not you hear like don't worry. You're going to be okay. Yeah. And then you hear all these voices. And then you see this craft. And then exactly then I put my head back because the nausea became overwhelming. I couldn't couldn't handle it anymore. But I saw the inside of the craft like what I remember of it. And that's the other weird part. I distinctly vividly remember every single scene except for what the fuck I saw inside the craft. That part is not perfect. It's so weird. Like my memories typically are very good with these things. Like did you go up into the craft from a light like a traditional abduction or it came to me. It just dissolved and came literally to me. So weird. So weird. And no, that's kind of similar to how they depicted in disclosure days. Well, it's like all of a sudden they're surrounded and they're in the craft. Right. Sorry, Steven Spielberg. I fell asleep during your disclosure day. I knew you were watching again. That's hilarious. I need to rewind that. Yeah. But my girlfriend watched the whole thing that I'll ask her. There you go. Yeah. And so yeah, I saw I remember. Again, this is there's definitely things that I've forgotten or just don't I couldn't remember. Which is frustrating. And as with all memory, you're not going to remember exactly what happened at the moment in anything. But yeah, keep going. So totally, totally, although I have a pretty genetic memory. Which is why this is so weird. So I see lights coming like like they're floating and they're beautiful. They're like this enchanting like pink and purple. Hughes just like orbs on in a way. I'm just like statically glowing inside this very dark room. And it was like a control panel of some kind like way over there on the side. I see these little beings walking around again, classic like gray alien, Proofian mummies, not all of them, because I think many of them are fake. But the little tiny guys with the like, you know, the nostrils and stuff like that and like, you know, lack of years or whatever. And the fingers, the fingers were on point. So they look like because they're different morphologies of the Proofian mummies. You have the J types, the S types and the M types, the M types are the biggest ones. And then the J types are the ones that look like close encounters of the third kind. The big ones look like your traditional gray, like almost like with the bigger grays and close encounters of the third kind. And then the smaller ones look like the smaller grays, the like thin gangly thing. Do you know which which ones it looked like? I would say it looked like a hybrid of like the big one and the smallest one. So like it had the tendrils. You probably mean the big one and the intermediate one because the smaller one just are really weird. They're like a wing. Oh, are those the fake doll looking? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Then it's probably not those. Yeah. But they were just tiny. Like the ones I saw were like like three feet, four feet tall. So yeah, I'll look at the J type. But yeah, the fingers stand out to me because like, when I like you would typically expect something that small to have like relatively small fingers, but these things had long, long tendrils, like long, very long fingers. There's only like three of them on top of that. It was very strange. And were you getting any telepathic messages or were you interacting with them mentally or verbally at all? I feel compelled to tell you two things for what it's worth. I'll start with the first one. So I had a like, I was in this like, yeah, program for like for a few years there between like the age of like 10 to 12. And one of the things in this program, it's like your classic like gifted kids program, whatever. My teaser had given me like this assignment. I was the only one who got this assignment, this project. It was 10 years old when I first started this program. And it was a recurring project that would work on every week or month essentially. And she got me to look into ESP, the psychic phenomenon. No way. Everybody else had to do a science or engineering related topic. I was the only mofo consistently being assigned ESP and anything related. Eventually evolved into crop circles. She's like look into abduction stories, looking to read those books by Jim Mars like all this other stuff. What? So you had a gifted and talented education advisor basically tell you to research extra sensory perception for years, years. And so by the time I was 12 years old, I remember having this dream like and the dream felt very vivid. It felt very real. I'm in my drawing room. This is in Surrey. And I noticed it's kind of like a table like this, like in terms of flatness and texture. And like on my, it was my countertop. This is like a center table or whatever. And like I'm sitting on the couch. And there's like a orange in front of me. And I could like feel like this tingling sensation in the middle of my forehead. Because I was like at this time, I was consciously like other than dreaming. I was actually actively like trying to develop telepathy and psychokinesis. Was that part of this training where they? It was. It wasn't just study it in the abstract. Teacher would straight up like teach me techniques on like how to like direct physical energy to change the temperature of a thermostat, for example. So this is like a typical gifted and talented education, not not typical for the most part. But I've encountered a couple people like Jordan Joseph who come on my show. Jordan school who in Julia Mossbridge just talked about her experiences where like they get like gifted and talented education is sort of like this top of funnel for like these deeper side programs where you're like meant to test mind matterability. So you were kind of in that. I have no idea what this sounds like. Looking back. Like I have no idea why the heck my teacher gave only like. Do you remember her name or his name? Yeah. Ms. K. A. U. R. K. A. U. R. Yeah. She's still alive. I don't know where she is. I don't know who this person was. I don't even know the. I don't know anything about this. Were you taken out of school for this? Yeah, it would be I would get taken out of school. I get dropped off every week by my parents because like where was it like another place? It was a different school or something. Okay. Yeah. It was in Toronto or this was now a British Columbia. British Columbia Vancouver. Yeah. A close to Vancouver like an hour away, hour and a half away. Why? It was some kind of school for sure. Did you ever like consume any drinks or food that they gave you? No, never. I don't know. Okay. Not there. No. So long go. Okay. Okay, but you so you initially you were you were given some books and research and then at what point were you told to like actually be a practitioner of like extra sensory person? By the first year I figured like this is like I don't know this is like how much more of this kind of work am I going to get like when do I actually get to do science and engineering like I thought that's what gifted kids are supposed to be working on like or whatever but that day never came dude like my teacher would only give the program teacher Ms. Coars she would only so yeah by year two I started staying like she would ask me to stay after that program ended right and she would it would be just us nobody else and she would like teach me this shit for like 30 minutes it's it sounds so strange saying it out loud but yeah she would be like you need to learn how to meditate and clear your mind and like here's how so this was after the other gifted and talented education students left exactly it was like 30 minutes I would get sometimes up to two hours and what would she say to do she would she was trying to get me to train my telekinesis and psycho kinesis what would she say to do so she said like she would I'll give you one example of an exercise so she was like tried to put your hands like this and then raise them apart and feel start visualizing and try to create an energy or pressure between your hands your hand should start feeling some sort of resistance from being able to put be put closer together think of it like they almost like she was trying to induce like a macroscopic biological chasmere effect like like you almost like you can implement like a vacuum field or something sounds like something Yoda would teach Luke Skywalker and Star Wars is like that's so wild it would blow my mind too because sometimes I work like and I what is it worked man it worked mean I could like create some kind of energy or force or something this sounds so you would feel it I would physically feel it and then and that was like the first six months was just focus on creating that field between between your hands just focus on creating that like force that didn't exist and then what what that she started teaching how to me how to redirect it like send it outwards to physical objects so that can influence it and were you ever able to Matilda style like move things in the room or I only tried it this on thermostats for what is worth and yes I did actually tried on like that orange too but when I was conscious of work when I had this dream that was super vivid it actually did work so that's a one caveat so you had it what do you mean you had a dream and then you interacted with the orange or in the dream or out of the dream it it was in the dream okay I'm pretty sure I'm I was dreaming that's why I keep saying like dream I don't know for fact I was dreaming I don't know for sure but I'm sitting my drawing room and like I'm practicing this force field stuff but this time I was just like can I originate it like like through through my head mine instead without requiring any initiation any calming meditation ritual can I just like eat this shit like yellow it you know and so I just like concentrate and looked at this thing this orange like on my countertop and suddenly I feel this and I'll bring this back to my 2019 experience in a second I start feeling this tingling sensation imagine someone's just like flipping a book like pages in front of you you feel like the wind from the book right as it's like flipping and so I feel that and suddenly bam the orange starts it moves like 8 10 inches just like as if something had pushed it and I was like holy shit like how what is that so why is that relevant because in 2019 you asked me was there any mental telepathy or anything like that and I felt compelled to tell you two things number one every time I would stop paying attention to the symbols I would feel that same exact forehead sensation tingling sensation again it was so recognizable I was like I what I know this feeling I know this feeling very well like it like I had this in my dream one time like you know and and I had forgotten about the dream on top of that but like as soon as I felt it I remembered all of that suddenly miss core all those memories are coming back everything and so I noticed and I and I tested this because it was actually as a control I was okay if I don't pay attention will this feeling come back so I literally just picked a different part of my room went over there went over there suddenly bam tingling feeling and it's like really guiding me back to the symbols keep looking buddy like you know we're not done you know you got to pay attention to this the symbols were somehow transmitting information into you or do this or things get so deep and weird because like there's levels to this stuff like yes it could be but that's also the obvious conclusion maybe it was just a distraction maybe it was to teach me the power symbols at some point the symbols were both here and then one set being portrayed right here different different sentences and paragraphs and I was like how am I supposed to read both of this at the same time it was so frustrating I was like how do I process both like I don't have an alien brain people like you know give me a break here like what is this so the second thing I felt compelled telling you about is that once the three fingered mofo gets like he jumps on top he does like some pre enchanting things I'll again to later if you want but walks up to me and he taps me or it taps me my head whatever it was right goes like this and as soon as it was doing that my mind expected because it was wearing its suit something deeply metallic or were like something like artificial or synthetic it felt way more like way more organic than I could have expected it was very organic and as soon as it touches me I get this complete layer of calm and like oneness and this is where I started getting like just a true download or something like just thoughts that I still barely have the words for I can translate three of those thoughts on the the first thought was that the universe is teaming with life we just don't have the instruments for it but it's everywhere it is not nearly as dead as we think the second thought was that I was always going to be experiencing this I knew exactly what was going to happen like decades before like like before I was even born type shit like I I'm here for a reason I have a mission I literally wanted to live this life as deep as thought or whatever not even that named income mind just I just want to live this life and like have this moment and this experience it was like pre like yeah pre or danders unfound destined so weird yeah so weird and keep in mind I'm a total militant atheist before this right like I didn't believe in any of the stuff not even spirituality and I was barely sold on consciousness by the way like as a thing like I wasn't sure about functionalism and what not and then the third thought and this is even somehow we're there then the second one is the universe is in the room with us right now and it's alive and well and it keeps track of everyone and everything it knows everybody every being every consciousness it keeps track of it like a damn database or something and it's fully aware of everything that's happening including this moment right now so it was so trippy wild how long do you think this event okay how long do you think this whole thing took 20 minutes 20 minutes yeah and that's because because you estimate that indeed just because of all the things that happen all the scenes all the mind I switch all the stuff being shown was there any missing time was there like did the time did more than that a last so that's a weird thing I I had the opposite of missing time almost no no time passed not a single minute really so it was like an expansion of a short amount of time or something pretty much fascinating both think both are possible through space time metric engineering by the way you can totally change the proper metric of a particular human in the world line by isolating that human just saying did you have any marks on your body or or hardware implanted or anything like that no the the only thing that distanced me was right after this I developed a frickin red SI like a super and it wasn't pink or anything like that it was just super red like I had a reaction to something but I experienced very weird electrical effects and phenomenon that I still can't explain my phone even after a factory resetting it it would charge instantly for the first few days like instantly as soon as I put it in charging even if it's dead thought that was just a factory defect didn't seem like it that's common to among experiencers electric so strange that's so strange I would walk by street lights bus lamps like bus signs and stuff just shut off totally shut off yeah and the I think the most intense experience was I was incapable of feeling anger or stress or anxiety for like three weeks it was so strange she felt good I felt really good I felt so good that I was like dude did I lose my agency because like I I didn't I didn't I didn't earn this level of like self-regulation at all like it just came out of nowhere. - Do you think it installed any scientific ideas, the experience? - I don't think it installed scientific ideas and maybe it did. I can't tell for a fact, one way or another, what it definitely did do was reorient me. Suddenly, I went from just wanting to help the technical capital machine, the economic system, build quantum computers only for materials discovery, to suddenly, holy shit, we need to expand the definition of consciousness. I want to make contact with non-human intelligence. I think it's super important that we accelerate our propulsion and physics and science while beyond what quantum computing can do. Like, my horizon and orientation went way more towards consciousness and space time than just how do we make companies more money? That was the biggest difference. - That's beautiful, man. - Well, deep, this has been amazing. - Pleasure, brother. - I feel like we got to end on that. - It's a crazy high note. I mean, what an amazing remarkable experience and you're just so fun to talk to you about all of these disparate. - So are you, my man? - Thank you. But increasing in relevance macro trends that are converging into some sort of apotheosis or apex point, omega point. It's very exciting, man. And yeah, I always love talking. - Even with the singularity. - That's what it feels like, man. Yeah, awesome. I got back from South America last year with something I couldn't shake, weeks of it. I kept filming down there. I picked up a bug somewhere along the way and it just kept going long after it should have stopped. I was in bed for weeks. Ways to well is how it ended. Brigham and his team went at it properly and got me back on my feet. Then I sent them my parents. My dad unfortunately has dementia and they've been treating him. My mom's had vertigo for a long time and they helped her with that. That's the part I find hard to talk about without sounding like an advertisement and they're not paying me to say any of this. So I'll just say it plainly. They looked after my family and I'm not gonna forget that. 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