"Agnostish"

Welcome to the Kind of Religious Podcast. Exploring religion, spirituality, and skepticism through real stories. Note debate, no shouting, just thoughtful conversations about how we find meaning and connection in a changing world. Let's get kind of religious. Hello everyone, welcome to Kind of Religious. Today I have in the studio my friend Destiny Hurned in Delirosa. She is a pro-life feminist, consistent life ethic advocate and the founder and president of New Wave feminists. After becoming a teen mother at 16, she's built her activism around providing practical supports including migrant shelters and material maternal aid. While opposing abortion, the death penalty, torture, and unjust war. A frequent op-ed contributor, she is also the co-founder of Stellar Shelter and Casa Madis to assist migrant women and children on the US Mexico border. Welcome, Destiny. Thanks so much for having me friend. How are you today? Doing well today. I am here in Texas as are you where I thought summer had already started because it's insanely hot but then it turns out, did you know it's not summer yet? We're still in spring with this scorching degree weather. I didn't know that. I know, like just yesterday my husband asked me what what is considered the first day of summer and I'm like it is like a week away. Well, no, I guess now it's days away. It's the 21st. So I had no idea. I thought we were fully into it because it feels like we are fully in speaking of your religious podcast actual hell. This feels like we're an actual hell right in front of it and it's spring, spring time in Texas. That's all it is. So it's going to get worse. I guess to start off, I like to give everyone the opportunity to if you can or if you'd like to define your religion or spirituality and how you see it. Yeah, definitely. So you know, I've labeled myself an agnostic for the last seven, eight years, I would say, but I have a good friend of mine who he actually, he calls me agnostic, which is kind of probably more fitting because I definitely grew up. My grandfather was a minister like very kind of religious household. I always like to tell people like, Jesus is the blueprint of my heart like from a very young age, it was, you know, the feed, the hungry and clothe the naked and how's the, you know, like unhoused. It's always been this very much like servant leadership type thing that was instilled in me through my grandparents and through my family and that version of Jesus has just always really resonated. So even though I left the faith and I really, I'm not entirely sure what I believe as far as was Jesus just a historical person or actually like God. And so I don't, I don't know, I don't know. But I am not mad about the fact that that was my blueprint when I was younger because I think it was a pretty good model to develop into as I got older. But yeah, these days I do not practice in your religion. I definitely talk about the universe a bunch to my families dismay and and I believe in a higher power of some sort because I feel like I've felt it before in certain ways. But I just, I don't really label it as a particular faith. So this is why I'm not atheist right. Like I'm agnostic because I tell people I go to the church of I don't know like I don't know anything's possible. Was Jesus alien sure? Maybe I don't know. Like I don't know. That's my faith. And your grandfather, you said was a minister. Do you know what flavor of Christianity that was? Yeah. So it was definitely charismatic evangelical, faithful gospel. I mean, they were the ones that did like, you know, healing, speaking in tongues, slaying in the spirit. Like there might be a show far every once in a while like flag, but like it was intense. It was, it was a lot of production value in that particular version of it. And then, you know, my mom always kind of had us going to non-denominational Christian churches. So I definitely grew up with I would say my grandparents, like it was a very intense spiritual real thing like Holy Spirit is alive and well type deal. And then my mom kind of had us in non-denominational churches that I don't want to say it was kind of the water down version, but it was like those churches where, you know, they put up a coffee bar. And then it's like, we love Jesus a latte. Like that type of shit where it's, you know, like that's what the sermons over that week. Like a lot of pun heavy sermons and kind of cheesy seeker type stuff. And for me that I always thought it was ridiculous. I think probably because I had grown up seeing the really into I lived with my grandparents for a bit. My mother and I did and my brother when we were small, small. So I was definitely exposed to my grandparents, like very intense religiosity. And then my mom going to the non-denominational churches just felt silly. It was like playing church. And so by my early 20s, I actually wanted to go to seminary and wasn't going to go the charismatic route or anything like that. But I was like, I want to become a difficult scholar. I want to know things. I want to preach. I want to do this. And then, you know, here in Dallas, we have Dallas Baptist University. And I do a Google search. And it's like, oh, yeah, basically, you can be a Christian counselor because you have a vagina. So that's kind of like the ceiling there for that. And, um, I was, I mean, just kind of peved because I was like, this is stupid. That has like, I found myself constantly in theological debates where I knew much more than my male counterparts. Because of growing up with a grandfather who constantly poured scripture into me and, you know, apologetics and all this other stuff. And so I think I was very annoyed with the fact that my gender was going to limit my ability to actually like preach the gospel or whatever you want to call it. And, you know, again, this is when I'm like 23, 24. And so I got really into like basic theology and kind of stuff like that. And really a more academic view of the Bible. And then within a year, I'd kind of let that go. And I ended up starting new wave feminist, which I thought was coincidental, but I was explaining it to a friend a while ago. And they were like, okay, so when you realized that you couldn't be a female preacher or pastor, you started a feminist cult within the next year. And I was like, well, I mean, that's one way to look at it. I certainly didn't mean to do it that way. But, but possibly that's what happened. And so yeah. And then I mean, I still carried a faith with me for another decade, almost after that before I became fully agnostic. And I think when you were exposed to a variety of, I guess, spirit filled church experiences, did any of them like resonate with you? Did you ever have something like, you know, a religious experience, a transcendent experience from some aspect of that practice? I feel like there's a lot that it's kind of done to induce that type of experience, I would say, you know, between, you know, the music and the lights and just the everybody's kind of in this shared hypnosis state type thing, you know, in our church, it would be, they would call it being drunk on the spirit. And that literally is how people would be like laughing or singing or running around, like, which is very intense. But I also felt like there was a level of kind of group thing that was happening there. And so like a good example was speaking in tongues. My grandmother to this day will say that she does not think I have the gift of the Holy Spirit because I do not speak in tongues. And this was even when at different points in my life, I was probably the most religious of all of her grandchildren. But I didn't speak in tongues. So I didn't have that. And you can, I mean, trust me, I challenged the theology of that, not every gift through every person, like I did think, but that was very much how my family viewed it. Like you needed the supernatural in order to prove that you truly were saved. And I think growing up that way can be really terrifying, especially when you're younger because, you know, I also had a family that believed in the rapture. And my grandmother literally had these giant hope chests that, you know, those are really big. In the olden days, like when your daughter's go off and get married, it's got China and linens and, you know, the stuff to kind of start their, their new life in this chest. Well, my grandmother had ones that were like, prepper hope chests that literally had like, I'm radio some batteries and gas masks. And my brother and I used to joke about it all the time that she was actually a Darwinist because there would be one gas mask in every hope chest. So it's like the strongest of each family, like they wouldn't, like get to survive. But it was very much growing up with that type of like, the rapture can happen at any point. And, you know, I can't even remember exactly what the belief was, but it was like pre-trib versus post-tribulation. Like we might be here for like a thousand years of such. And so to this day, I have some mad OCD, I try to hide it really well, but like my OCD is very fixated. I think it's called like the Scrupulousity type OCD, which means something different to Cadillac's. But when it comes to obsessive compulsive disorder, it's very much around like the number 666. I'm terrified of the mark of the beast. I'm like, it's stuff that at 41 I look back on. I'm like, this is so silly. But my perfect car radio setting is at the 18. Level 18 is the perfect. But that's 666 added together. And so I have to have it at 17 or 19 all the time because I'm a freaking weirdo now. I will not set the volume to 13 for some reason. And I'm not super suspicious because my only other suspicion or superstitions are is the every car accident I've been in, Abba was playing. And so I never listen to Abba in a moving vehicle of any kind or an airplane. It's either a tremendous coincidence or I'm super gay. I don't know. But are you dancing? Are you being a dancing queen when it's happening? No. Okay. Is that why you crashed? No, the first time it was actually SOS. That was like kind of forboding. Oh my. Ironic. Damn. Okay. But when I think about this end time thing and the focus on the end times, I can definitely, you know, I understand it like growing up being raised Catholic. I was firmly believed that at some point the world was going to end and it could be very dramatic and it could be very scary or you know, the dead would rise or something. And it definitely. Oh, I mean, that's because yeah, the other part of the rap is like the tracks that we used to hand out at Halloween instead of candy because we were those assholes. Like it was pictures of dead bodies coming up out of the grave and like being sucked up to the sky. And then also that's what's going to happen to us. And I'm terrified of heights. And so I remember being a little kid and my grandmother at this point must have been in her 50s. And so late 40s, early 50s, I think she was kind of done. I think she was exhausted in general. And so the idea of the end of the world was great to her, which now as I'm entering my 40s, I kind of low key get that like I understand where she's coming from. And it's like I'm just tired. Can we be done with it now? But keep in mind, I'm like seven, eight, nine years old when she's saying this stuff to me, like Jesus is coming back any day now. And you know, which is what's kind of creepy. We have all of these people who have like this type of thing happening right now. Ted Cruz was just talking about it recently and in something where it's like they kind of believe that they can bring about the end of the world. Are the end of this period, the people who very much believe in the rapture and that type of stuff, like they will talk about how, you know, everything happening in the Middle East and peace in the Middle East and all these things would then bring about this rapture mentality that these prophecies are being fulfilled. So my whole life I grew up with them being like, oh, that's another prophecy. That's straight out of revelation. This was just fulfilled like God's coming back. And so there was so much trauma. I remember one time at Christmas, my grandmother, hold my brother and I. And so I'm like maybe 10. He would have been like eight. She tells us that Jesus is coming back on Christmas Eve. And why would you tell children that because that's absolutely horrifying, but she's like convinced. And also I believe there's something that says like no one will know the time. But whatever. Yeah, we ignore that part. So she's like, he's coming back Christmas Eve. And so I just remember that entire day my brother and I being terrified like on our very best behavior, I don't think I peed once that whole day because I'm like, I'm not getting raptured with my pants down. Like I don't want to be on the toilet. And then finally like that night, my mom's like, okay, you all have to go to to sleep because Santa's coming because we also believe in that right. Santa's coming. And then like you she had to put out gifts. And so it's like 10 o'clock. And I remember my brother Derek and I, I was like, I'm staying in his room tonight. I got a sleeping bag. I got a sleeping bag on his floor because I didn't want to get raptured by myself. And we stayed up for the next two hours. And like we're just terrified like every minute that passes, we're getting more and more afraid. Because we have been told by this authority figure in our life that God was coming back today. And we are running out of time. So like it's about to happen in any moment now. And then and also now again, adult brain. I'm like, we just assumed he was on central standard time like that. This is like we had exactly two hours. Jesus is going to come back. And I remember it was like 1159 and like we didn't, I mean, I did not breathe that entire minute because I'm like, it's happening. Like it was so real to me that I believe that this was going to happen. Obviously, spoiler alert. God didn't come back. And so then the next morning, I remember waking up and my grandmother had gotten my brother like a bike. She gave me like $200, which was awesome. I'm like, hold on, you planned a hedge for this? Like were you not as invested in this as like we, we didn't realize how they had probably been doing this since the 70s, you know, this God comes back type stuff. Like they were always a part of a church that had well prophecies have all been fulfilled. So we think God's coming back this time. And then you know what? God doesn't come back. And it's like, oh well, we got this one wrong. Like we'll just, we'll go on to the next one. Derek and I had no clue. This was like a 50, 50 chance God's coming back. And so for us, it was this really terrifying traumatic thing. And the funny thing is like, I look at now a lot of these same types of evangelicals who definitely have a lot of this like rapture, you know, belief and or at least grew up in houses that had that type of belief. They're also a lot of the ones that believe in QAnon stuff, which I think is really interesting because I'm like, it's almost like this, this whole portion of the population who I, you know, they will be really goalable. Like what? China's invaded Canada and we need to take out all of our money and turn it into gold and start talking up on stuff because in the next three weeks, you know, America is going to, going to crumble. And then they believe it and then guess what? That doesn't happen. And they're like, oh, okay. And they kind of like move on to the next thing because it's almost like in this weird way, they've been groomed for this for the last 40, 50 years. I had not thought about it in the long term that way, which I think is very short-sighted of me. I think one, one thing that I felt like kind of propelled QAnon and people's openness to I guess this religious, religious prophecy mindset was the pandemic, which, you know, I mean, looking back on it was very dramatic and very traumatic. And it created a lot of offshoot groups that were saying prophecy is on the rise. Prophecy is here, you know, it's going to increase and it's moving the United States in a certain way. It's moving human history. And it really, I think, played with the malleability of people's minds. And that's a very interesting way of looking at it is, you know, people have been prepped with kind of outlandish, I might say objectively. Definitely going to happen. The thing is definitely going to happen. Oh, but it didn't happen. So we'll just wait for the next time. It's definitely going to happen. Like, I just think that such a unique experience that until I started seeing kind of QAnon people make these big prophetic things, I didn't realize there was anything else that was quite like what I grew up with. We're like, God's coming back stuff. That then it's just so strange that the people who preach this stuff don't lose any credibility when it doesn't happen, which is kind of unusual. And then you see that reflected a lot in kind of QAnon behavior as well. Yeah, I think there's something to be said for, you know, how they say, like religious literature is not meant to be historical, it's not meant to be factual. It's meant to be something other. It's just communicating a truth in a way that religious people are attuned to. And I feel like that's kind of the way some of the far right is kind of functioning now. They've kind of switched to a more religious way of communicating that a larger population doesn't understand. Might be a quarter of the population, might be a fifth that are really attuned to it. I might be really generous here, but it's just enough to tip the scales so to speak. Yeah. Here's hoping that that's all it is. I just know that it has somebody who grew up under it, then seeing it reflected in a larger political movement, it's pretty disturbing because I guess I grew out of it at one point. And I was like, oh, this is ridiculous. And so to think like there are people who not only have not grown out of it, but grown even more into it, it just gets a little bit frightening. And did any of the politics of it influence like your church attendance or your belief, your basic belief system? So I know that growing up, I mean, there was definitely a lot of talk about, you know, Planned Parenthood kills babies and we're pro life. And there was that type of stuff, but it wasn't necessarily. I mean, I don't know, maybe this is naive to say it wasn't political at the time. Like, yes, there was one party that was more pro life. We kind of knew that. So, but there wasn't, I would say there's been a shift, at least in what I saw in the last 10 years where it It became very much like naming names and naming political parties. And it wasn't just a belief anymore. It became like, this is the person. And if you vote for the person running against this person, then you're actually basically voting for Satan. And like that type of stuff started happening, which I would say definitely did kind of influence part of my agnosticism because of the fact that growing up in such a strict, um, dirty culture and family values and very, very religious perfectionism, almost, um, and then seeing those same people embrace politicians and not just Trump Trump's most obvious one. But I mean, others who were kind of falling short of that. But as long as they had political power, we're going to ignore the fact that they've had multiple wives or had had these affairs or had done this other stuff. But then suddenly it was, it was permissible, even though in our actual life and community, it was, you know, like so extremely those same types of, uh, you know, sins and transgressions. But then when it came to these politicians, like, people were looking the other way. And I remember just feeling like this is hypocritical. And I guess I hated the fact that like I adore my grandparents. My grandmother's a little bit kooky with a rapture stuff, but, um, I, I still adore them. And, you know, my grandfather just passed away a few years ago, but he was my person on this planet. Like he, he was just my favorite person. And I had such like admiration and esteem for him. And I felt like his morals and his, his just ethics were really, really solid. I mean, at his court, just who he was was really good. And then I watched as kind of the political like Fox News weird, you know, Christian nationalism stuff started to seep in. And I think because he was older, it just kind of got to this point where it's like he, he would pair it certain things like he'd be, you know, saying something awful about Nancy Pelosi. And I remember this one time I said, you know, I actually heard, uh, this priest was giving a homily and my friend quoted it to me the week prior. She said that the priest to make the comment, whoever is your worst enemy here on earth is going to be your best friend in heaven. And I really just like, I loved that thought like because I'm somebody who like, I try not to have enemies, but I have a couple. There's some people that I can't stand. And like the thought that like we are going to become so evolved and enlightened on like this next plane that like this person that I have so much like frustration with could actually become my best friend like because I will be around in that and I will know them that well. And like we will be able to find that like I just, I thought it was a beautiful, a beautiful thought. Also one of my very favorite quotes, uh, which I think is Abraham Lincoln is, um, that the best way to get rid of enemy is to make them your friend. And so I loved this idea of what this priest said that they're going to become our best friends. It's really cool. And I remember saying that to my grandfather after he went on this crazy like die of tribe against Nancy Pelosi and I just watched it like this little bit of light crack through where he was like, oh my gosh, you're right. Like the pastor him that was the most loving, wonderful human being, he would do anything for anybody. It didn't matter like, you know, anything about them that, you know, if they were trans or gay or it wouldn't matter to him. If a person in front of him like needed help, he would love them immediately. But then there was this weird other side that was just being indoctrinated by Fox News every single day that was like taking away the person that I knew that had put that blueprint of Jesus on my heart. And it was just such a weird contradiction. And I also think that's when I realized that for me, my grandparents, especially my grandfather had kind of become idols. Like he was God with skin on to me. You know, like this, this was God to me. And so he ended up, like I said, passing away a couple years ago and the last six weeks, you know, I was with him in Lasbias and it was, it was the most beautiful traumatic experience of my life to be there with him when he passed. But you know, I was, I was holding his hand and when the moment came, it was like he took these last three breaths and my grandmother had just gone in. It was like seven in the morning. I just called her because I said, I think it's happening. And so I was just like holding his hand and I hear the breath. And the entire time he had had this oxygen machine on and, you know, I mean, for like months now, he had had this oxygen machine. So it wasn't like a noise we weren't used to, but I just remember in that moment, my grandmother and I both started like yelling at him. Like it felt like the room got so loud. And so when you're asking about like a spiritual experience, I feel like this definitely was one where I felt like I was on the edge of this abyss to the afterlife, to the unknown. And I was right there and I just remember yelling at him and being like, we love you. We love you so much. And I kept telling him like, you're with Jesus now, you're with Jesus now. And I am solidly agnostic these days. But I was like, this is what he believes and this is all he wanted. You know, he said like he wasn't, he wasn't scared of death. He was afraid of dying and he didn't want the dying process. But he was happy to, to actually like go on to meet his Lord and Savior. That's what he would tell you about his, you know, his views of the world. And so I felt like this is a huge moment for him that he's been waiting for his whole life. This good and faithful servant moment that he was finally going to have. And it was really powerful and really beautiful. And it was just like this vacuum that was so intense and so incredibly loud. And it was like, I literally handed him off. One of my favorite other quotes is Ram Das, where it's like, we're all just walking each other home. And I felt like I walked him all the way home. I held his hand like all the way home and handed him off. And it was this beautiful, powerful experience. And then the room just got really quiet. And it's weird to say, but in the two years since then, I have felt this complete void of a higher power interacting with me. And I just feel like maybe it's only my head, but my grandfather was some sort of tether for me to the, to the supernatural, to the unknown. And so losing him like I lost part of that. Even though I had gone into agnosticism, gosh, back in 2017, I still, no, it was even earlier than that. It was like 2015, 16, but I had still been, my grandfather and I would have the best conversations about faith. And he was always like, come on. He needed to be secure in knowing I wasn't going to burn in hell or whatever. And so it had these really deep conversations, but it was, it was very respectful of where I was at. Like I joke all the time that my higher power, like I call him Mr. Miyagi because when it comes to a higher power, like I can just look back in my life. And I see weird coincidences that I was in the right place at the right time or felt this nudging to do a particular thing. So I would go do that thing or I'd talk to that person or whatever. And then it would end up like paying dividends later on down the road, right? And so it was always kind of this like, why am I waxing the car? Why am I sanding the fence? Like I don't understand what's going on. But then if I did that, all of a sudden I kind of knew karate, right? So it was these, it was just as being obedient to something that I felt nudging me on like a spiritual core level to do a particular thing. And anytime I do it, something good comes of it. And so that was my higher power. That was, you know, Holy Spirit or the universe or whatever you want to call it. I called it Mr. Miyagi. Drogue my family. Absolutely crazy. And my grandfather was the only one who like respected it. And he's like, all right, well, what do you think Mr. Miyagi would think about this decision or whatever? And I just really appreciated that he was respectful of where I was at and never tried. Like he did. I was a granddaughter. I know I love me very much. And he was like a dad to me. I mean, we were incredibly close. So it's like, I know he didn't want me to burn in hell. But he also was allowing me to have my own journey so that it would be authentic versus I feel like kind of other people in my family, it's just go to church, just fake it till you make it at some point. Maybe you'll believe, you know, and it's never going to work out that way for me. I think what strikes me about that story and thank you for sharing because that was very powerful is the idea that he had respect for your journey. And you were giving him so much respect by walking him through that death process. You know, emulating his beliefs as I feel like even though my parents and I don't share a belief system right now, to me that doesn't matter if they think that something is going to happen in the afterlife, I would encourage them to continue that. There's actually something very ancient about that kind of understanding where we can simultaneously believe like, you know, this is my truth and this is your truth and they may both lead us to the same place. Yeah. I sure hope so. Well, and I would also say that like being somebody who lost my faith and to a degree and that security and salvation, this other stuff that I was raised with like, it is terrifying when I get on an airplane. It's like used to, if the airplane goes down, okay, whatever I'm in paradise with. My grandfather and my brother and all these people that I love who have passed before me and I get heaven and you know, it just there was there was a security and knowing that that's where I was going and the second that that went away. Now that's one of the possibilities, but also maybe I get reincarnated. Maybe I go into nothingness. Like there's so many different options for me now that it really is kind of a petrifying thing to have to go through. If you really, I don't, I don't understand how people are full blown atheists. Like unless they just don't think about it very much, which I overthink everything. So I, I cannot be an atheist or I would just jump off a bridge tomorrow. But I can be agnostic and even then it's really, really scary. And so this idea that we're trying to convince other people or change their thoughts on something. Like I don't want, I don't want anyone to listen to me and become agnostic or leave their faith. If you have a faith, like hang on to that as hard as you can because it is, it back when I had it, I was so brave and I slept better and I had this like security and I felt like my life definitely had a purpose and a mission and there was this, you know, being out there that like gave a shit about me and like really, really cared and, you know, all of these things that happened, it's because I was on this path and this purpose and I, I believe that's a possibility now. But I don't know for sure that that's a thing anymore. And so it's really sad when you lose your faith and I would never in a million years want to kill God for somebody else. Like I would never want them to follow me down this path because, you know, when churches now talk about people who deconstruct and they're like, oh, they just do it so they can smoke pot and have sex with their, you know, partners. But I mean, sure, maybe. But again, those are people who do not have ADHD and OCD like me like, like because the people who are really doing it, like deeply and giving it thought, it is a terrifying place to be. And we don't, we're not trying to convince other people to do it because I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy quite honestly. It seems like the contours, the definition that religion gives to an individual's life is so reassuring that when you remove that, it can seem overwhelming and exhausting to do all the work that religion might do for someone because then you have to kind of redefine your place in the world and what it means to do right or do good. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, this is a little bit of a segue, but not too far. This, because this quote made me think of, you know, your path as an agnostic and someone working in a consistent life setting. I just saw this movie called La Cosina. It was really powerful, really good. I don't think it's maybe a few years old, but it focuses on immigration, labor and abortion. And it starts off with a quote from Henry David Theroux from an essay that's called Life Without Principle. And I, I looked up the essay and read it a little bit more fully to get an idea. It's about labor and about life. And the quote from the movie starts off, let us consider the way in which we spend our lives. This world is a place of business. What an infinite bustle. I am awakened almost every night by the panting of the locomotive. It interrupts my dreams. There is no Sabbath. It would be glorious to see mankind in leisure for once. It is nothing but work, work, work. I am connecting this here a little bit because I think that in the United States, we focus a lot on the individual, but it's kind of a double edged sword. On the one hand, we focus on requiring so much of an individual to do this work for themselves, to lift themselves up, to make something of themselves. And that can be abused by power structures and by labor to force people to output as much labor and their attention as possible. And on the other hand, I think kind of a more gentle way of looking at it is seeing each individual person as someone so beautiful and so powerful, full of creativity, maybe full of the divine. So when you are kind of straddling the line here of what people typically think of as a political binary of conservative religious or liberal atheists, how do you help people interpret you when they're stuck in that kind of binary mindset? Yeah. That's a good question. I think that people want to put others in boxes because it's easy, right? It's kind of lazy, but if I can label you a conservative Christian or you're a godless atheist liberal, those tend to be the boxes people want to put me in all the time. And I'm like, what if I'm a little bit of none of those things? What if most of us are none of those things? What if most of us are very complex and have a lot of different opinions and we're constantly just being divided and put into this binary that I don't think is conducive to the human spirit, energy in any way. I also think that for me personally, it, like I said, I grew up the way that I grew up. So there's certainly an imprint of particular beliefs and morals and ethics that are on me, but I've also had to really kind of like peel that back and see which ones I believe in. You know, purity culture, not so much. I think that there's cause and effect type stuff that I get. But, you know, I'm also a mother. I'm raising kids. So it's like I've really had to rethink a lot of this. And with a lot of people who deconstruct, I see them throw out the pro life thing right away. It literally baby goes out with the bathroom, but they're almost immediately because, oh, this is just a religious belief. And on me, it's, it's absolutely not like it's and it, but it also never has been. I will say my family did a really good job of that because my mom got pregnant with me when she was 19. She was in college and she moved back home with my grandparents. That's why we lived with them when I was little and she had a couple of failed marriages. Like, I mean, we definitely had a struggle, which is where I get a lot of my feminism from because I think all that was crap. Like, I think she should have been able to stay in school and continue her education. It would have been better for, you know, myself and her and my brother eventually, like, and society are communities as a whole. If we didn't have this insane struggle that it took her 10 years to degree and all this other stuff, but one of the things she always said was that she remembered seeing that life magazine. She and I want to say it was like in the 70s, sometimes in the 70s, when it came out, you remember the one I'm talking about with images of, yeah, the fetal development, right? Different gestational stages and she's like, yeah, we just had it on our coffee tables. So she just always knew. So even though my family was religious, and it's funny because my grandfather was actually a salesman for years before he went into ministry after he retired. And so like, it's, I don't think she grew up with the same grandparents that I did. You know, like, she grew up with, with, you know, yeah, they went to church on Sundays and stuff, but definitely not the intense kind of theological upbringing that I got by the time I came along. But even still it was like for them pro life was just this is a human being, duh. Like look at these images. Like it's clearly its own unique genetic creation. And so I was never taught, you know, the, your mother knit you together and the, the, the God knit you together in your mother's womb, like that whole type of, like, because I talk to a lot of kids now in my activism. And for them, there's a bunch of scripture verses that support their pro life views. I never was raised that way. It was always a science and biology thing for me. And so trying to kind of explain that to other people that even and most especially in my agnosticism, like I don't, I don't know what, what any of this is. If I had the security to, you know, say, believe in like a Judeo Christian belief where God puts a soul in this child at some point in my pregnancy or whatever. Or maybe even when it takes its first breath, who knows? Like there are all these different traditions that believe different things about the unborn. And when they, they get this soul, which I would say is a very kind of religious concept to begin with, it goes beyond just consciousness and sentience, but like a soul. Okay. Well, whatever that energy is as an agnostic, I believe that energy always exists as somebody who believes in science and biology, like energetically, I think that from the moment of conception, that kind of starts, right? I will also say that I think about the fact that it is, I mean, for lack of a better term, a freaking miracle that any of us are here. If you look back through history and the fact that we survived dinosaurs and genocides and plagues and Holocausts, I mean, everything else that has led up to this moment where this unique genetic creation gets an opportunity to be born. And we have a local science museum here and they have this bench with this amazing quote on it that says, like, you know, the iron in your blood is from stars, trillions of miles away from thousands of years ago, something like that. Like it's just this insane science fact. And it's like the fact that any of us are here, that we have survived all of these different things to be here. I have, and there's a guy who's been removed. named David Pomerance and he would talk about the fact that his grandfather was in the Holocaust and he was being carted off to one of the camps and he was in the very last train car and this little like six inch piece of metal broke and the last train car rolled back and everybody in that car got out and ran from the hills and survived and his grandfather was one of them and he said I am here because of this six inch piece of metal that broke like if you start thinking about the fact that any of us at any point like we all have those type of miracles that happen I'm here because these great great grandparents met you know 100 years ago like or whatever it is like it's fucking miraculous that any of us are here so for us then to just like oh well now is not really a good time to have a child so I'm going to go ahead and terminate like that's art wrenching because because it's so miraculous that this human being exists and then on the flip side with the work that we do in Mexico it's not even necessarily that it's like you know just the timing is not right or a convenience thing which I'm not saying it's always that here in the States it's just it's a bit more prevalent here in the States for that a lot of the stuff we're dealing with with our migrant moms is I cannot have a child right now because I have been on this journey maybe you know the the child is through sexual assault like there's a lot of different factors these are some very very heavy cases and yet most of our moms like they do not want to terminate they they want to be able to continue their pregnancy because they know and in some weird way that I don't know that we have as much here in American culture but they know that it's it's a miracle and like right now as I guess when it's happening but how can we sustain that like I can't be waiting for six to nine months in this horrific place that's very dangerous for females especially unhoused without medical care anything and expect to be able to continue this pregnancy and so that's where we came in like okay this is this very practical solution to this like let's let's create a shelter while you're waiting on your asylum and then we have an emergency shelter on the other side on the US side as well where we can help people and so to me again it's it's the science of it it's just looking not for God to answer some prayers or like this super spiritualized and no it's just just do the stuff man like people need help do it they will continue their pregnancies if they have a roof over their head food in their mouth closed on their back access to quality medical care like nine times out of 10 they will continue their pregnancy so let's just do that and to me it's just it's not religious it's not political it's just common sense is is there not like I would think a finite a huge financial aspect to this for the migrant women especially if they are trying to get into the United States it will be more costly and more difficult for them absolutely and they're going to have to probably wait on a second appointment for the child now I mean it becomes very complicated and so they need more support there there is a whole lot of incentive and access quite honestly to abortion what there's not access to is places where they can continue their pregnancies and so if we can at least just remove those obstacles they are many of them are willing to make that sacrifice because they again they do tend to value life more than I think a lot of our communities here in the states do I'm sensing a different kind of binary in my head where it's the way we perceive authority over other people's bodies and I think it's something that turns off a generation of Christians or Americans to the way some religious traditions want to police only certain aspects of somebody else's body but there seems to be like a lack of responsibility for taking care of someone else's body as opposed to just regulating someone's body you know flowing it or feeding it do you do you get the sense if it's a generational thing that people sense that there is more of a spectrum to our responsibility to people's bodies. I mean I would say most pro-lifers are going to say it's not only the woman's body it's a body inside the woman's body right so we're looking at two bodies but when it comes to providing this care I would say it is predominantly Catholics who are at the border who they take it very seriously and they do that part. I would say when it comes to abortion access though so people who you know I obviously disagree with that form of activism but I will acknowledge they think that they're doing the right thing they are they think that they're helping in very desperate situations. For them it's almost like this weird white savior is something that starts to happen though where it's like well they need abortion because here in the states we need access to abortion right so they push this colonizer mindset which if you know again why I'm a pro-lifeminist is because I feel like abortion is a tool of patriarchy like I feel like it basically says we need to create a male normative form for you to be able to participate in academia and the workforce and society as a whole you have to become like a man you should not be you know your fertility is a liability in this type of a patriarchal system that was designed for him and by men and so I fight back by saying no we need actual equity we need to create systems that work for female fertility in all of its glory and so when we then are trying to push that same mentality on a culture that is a bit more matriarchal than our own where it's I don't know if it's unwelcome like it's seeping in obviously they're you know decriminalizing legalizing abortion in Mexico and stuff but it's not like it wasn't a natural thing as much as it was here in the states because as you were talking about earlier with that quote right the throw quote it's it's the grind you need to be a producer and unpaid labor does not produce and so we need you to be able to go to work and create and do and work and so it's and especially in a place like Mexico where the poverty level is so high and so extreme um there definitely is it's it's ripe for this American colonizer mentality that says we care about profits not people and so we are going to eliminate these people and so then you see this American model come in and say well we just want to make sure you have access to abortion have you gotten you know and you've gotten your your backup of abortion pills you know where you can go get abortions you know where you can get this local like it's that type of stuff is happening a lot at the border and women are like cool cool yeah I know how to handle an abortion but what if I want to continue my pregnancy and then it's crickets there's not a lot of resources for actually doing that and so my challenge that I make to my pro choice friends which I have dear wonderful pro choice friends uh you know they say that they're not pro abortion and I believe them you're not pro abortion but what are you doing for the other choices then because if you're only supporting abortion then you are pro abortion unfortunately if you're not putting your money and time and talents into the other option which is continuing a pregnancy then how can you say your pro choice and so what we are doing is making sure that women at the border actually have have choices and that we value them their human dignity their child's human dignity um we know the struggle and the sacrifice that they're going to be forced to make if they continue this pregnancy and bring this child into the world but at the same time if we can alleviate some of that burden and just love them in a very holistic practical pragmatic way uh that's what we we feel called to do and keep in mind like my partner super super Catholic so for her of course this is seamless garment this is just like a natural progression of her religion and action um and which is why it works really well together even though wine's coming from a secular place like the end goal is the same how do we honor the human dignity of human beings I was gonna ask where did the names for the shelters come from because being a former Catholic I am seeing Stella Maris yeah there's some dog whistles in there um yeah so the thing is we had a whole bunch of weird mr. Miyagi shit that happened um as we were closing on the shelter and raising the funds for it and a friend had actually gone to uh lords and she I guess prayed for our fundraising and the next day and I mean we're a small group we do not make a lot of money at all uh and so we had this wild idea that we had the opportunity to buy this property for three hundred thousand dollars but I'm like we're a group that has like we're on a good day we'll have twenty thousand bucks in the bank account like we don't have staff we don't have a lot of overhead like we're a very tiny organization uh and all the money that comes in goes right back out we like being kind of core because it means we're actually helping people with donations right and so this idea though of raising three hundred thousand for this property was crazy so the spread goes to lords she says a prayer within eight or nine hours we have our first fundraising meeting with this couple that wanted to donate to us uh they tell us that they want to give us a hundred thousand dollar matching donation and I'm like this is crazy and and I knew that they were Catholic so I made the comment that my friend had you know right at lords turns out the woman of this couple had written a book on lords and I'm like okay that's creepy that's like super weird so a couple hours later I call other friend of mine super Catholic all over kids are named after saints like I know she's gonna love this story and I'm like hey like this crazy thing happened today and like we got this hundred thousand dollar matching donation they gave us to this is in 2023 I think in 2022 they gave us till 2025 to match this donation because they were like what are your plans for fundraising to match it and I was like you know memes on instagram and I guess I'll send a newsletter out like, I don't know, I'm not a fundraiser, I'm not good at it. And they were like, okay, well, we'll give you till 2025. So a couple hours later, call this friend, call the Catholic kids, and tell her this story and she goes, have you matched it yet? And I was like, no, this was literally like four hours ago. She goes, let me go ahead and match it. And I was like, no, no, no, not $10,000, $100,000. She goes, I know, let me go ahead and match it. And I'm like, what is happening? Like in the first, you know, 12 hours of our campaign, we raised $200,000 towards this shelter. And, you know, and of course, we have a lot of Catholic supporters. We have agnostics, supporters, atheists, pro-choice, supporters. We had a great feminist atheist who gave us 40,000 towards the goal. So it was this very ecumenical kind of like fundraising, but weird Mary stuff started happening. And again, growing up Protestant, I was taught that Catholics worship Mary, my friend Jason has this funny thing. He always says, we don't worship Mary, idiot. We worship statues of Mary, get it straight. And like, yeah, I love that. I love that. Huge difference. Yeah, huge difference. I didn't realize that they go to worshiping statues and Mary the whole time. So I know nothing about really Mary other than we would bring her out at Christmas. We'd talk about teen pregnancy. Then we'd put her back in closet. You know, we really are not a big Mary denomination. That is quite an image. Well, I mean, that's what it's what it was. And we also didn't have a lot of like, I don't know, I mean, we had Eastern Ruth, but I would say Catholics really have a lot of like female saints and there's kind of more female empowerment stuff going on there, which is cool. So learning more about Mary and all the different like operations and stuff, all this stuff started coming up. And the funny thing is like, especially lords, I really relate to that story in particular because of my Mr. Miyagi thing I do, right? And if you know the story of lords, it was St. Bernardet and she's this child who sees this apparition of Mary and like everyone thinks she's crazy. She would go into a trance. I think she saw her like 18 times. Don't love that number because that's 666 together but I'm not gonna look too far into that. But anyway, she's like 18 different times. And everybody keeps saying who is she? Who is she? And she's like, I don't know, she's a lady in a white dress. Like she won't and they're like, come, I mean, she's very Catholic. So you know people are like, just say it's Mary, dude. And she won't say it's Mary until Mary tells her. And she says who are you? And she says I'm the immaculate conception. And then that was this huge confirmation with Catholics. And evidently it was this really big deal. Reese knew her as that but nobody else was supposed to and so how did this child know and blah blah blah. Anyway, it was this confirmation that it was actually this religious moment that happened. I think that's a really cool story. I think that the Dilma in Mexico City, you know, our Lady Aguadalupe, like that's like, if you look at the science behind that, the fact that like the paint has been tested, they've been tried to, you know, it acids been spilled on it. People have tried to blow it up like all types of crazy stuff. I've happened to this Dilma that was on like this weird type of straw apron that should have been destroyed hundreds of years ago and hasn't it? Like, why do you explain that? How do you explain and corrupt? Well, like there's just Catholics have some weird stuff. But that's all I'm saying. And I think as an agnostic who believes in science, I kind of have to acknowledge some of it. It makes my brain tingle and I try to figure out how it works. I need to interject a little something about Esther. I find this really kind of fascinating. There is a very big, I don't know, which flavor of Christianity a focus on Esther is a female role model. And as a Jew, I find it just fascinating because there is every evidence that the story of Esther was meant to be a comedy. And so in Judaism, it's a misfit to listen to or hear the story of Esther being read out. But the holiday that it's on is also one where everyone gets drunk. Like there is an open bar and you're just doing shots listening to the story in a costume. They're sound makers or I guess like clackers and things like that. And the understanding was like, oh, this is meant to be. I mean, you take some aspects of it seriously. But one of the fascinating things about the Esther story is that the original story never mentions God at all. And the addition of any mention of God is much later redactions. So it's kind of an atheist comedic story or maybe not atheists, but it was a popular funny story that got put into the Bible. And so when I see people like doing like, oh, this is Camp Esther for such a time as this. And it's like, I get you. But-- I can't, Veggie Tails ruined it for me. All I can see is the little great people. And so yeah, they definitely made it a comedy. I think they had more of the appropriate air for it. But I mean, yeah, 100% growing up in a Protestant church, it was Esther and Ruth and Mary Magdalene. But there was still always this kind of like, I don't know, less than this. And then I feel like because Catholics have Mary, but even then, she's a virgin. And there's very specific things, put on Mary limitations that probably are not put on the heroes of King David got to be like the absolute worst, but then still redeemable. And he's a man after God's own heart and stuff like that. I just feel like it's very interesting when you start looking at the gender methodology of kind of-- the way what the King can and what is taught, how it's passed down, what it's used for. And so Mary to me was something where, as we were going through this process, Mary just kept coming up. And Stella Maras in particular, which is the guiding star that sailors used to use. It's the North Star that would guide them and they would attribute that to Mary. And then there are these other Mexican traditions that were very tied into Stella Maras and directing the path as a migrant. This is a safe way to go and stuff like that. And so it became not only because Mary kept showing up in this weird way where I'm like, am I just manifesting this? Am I just in some weird Mary flow where I'm seeing it everywhere? Or is there something happening? And a really good friend of mine said, if anybody-- and he's very Catholic-- he was like, if anybody understands what these women are going through, it would be the heart of Mary, right? The fact that they're terrified. They are pregnant. They don't know where they're giving birth. They don't know where they're going to lay their child down to sleep tonight. Like, Mary has a heart for that. So of course, if Mary is real and the spirit energy that still exists in the world, of course, she's going to be supporting the work of these shelters. And I really love that. And so I feel like even if it's just-- I'm Irish as hell. So there's so much folklore storytelling type stuff that we're into. And the idea that if we can honor that with the name of these shelters-- so yeah, we have the stellar shelter, which is stellar, not stellar, because we were trying to hide the fact that it was an ode to the stellar maris at first. But then we have Casa Maris is on the US side. And I'm like, cats out of the back. I still think it's just-- I mean, they're still secular shelters. I'm still definitely agnostic. But I think that just like I would acknowledge science and lived experiences in the reality of other stuff, like I kind of have to acknowledge that really strong Mary vibes kept coming up like during this whole thing. It's also part of the world, though, where they do honor Mary. And again, going back to the fact that Mexico tends to be more matriarchal, I think that's probably why. Because Mary is this icon that they have down there that really protects-- I mean, even when it comes to organized crime and stuff, down there, when it comes to shelters, there is some protection that even just affiliating that way with the religiosity. It does protect a lot of shelters and stuff. So I think it's not a horrible idea to throw some saints up on the wall and stuff of shelters, even though we're a secular shelter. It's culturally sensitive. It protects us. And so we've got like-- we just got a mural put up of Sister Cabrini so that people know that we're a safe place for women to come to the patron saint of migrants. Yeah. I mean, I think I only caught on to these names because I happened to know Spanish. And I took Latin for a bit, although it was not good at it. And I was like, I was like, customaris. It should either be customaria or domos modis. And I'm like, never mind. Get over it. It was sneaky. It was sneaky, but not that sneaky. And definitely all of our Catholic followers are like, yeah, we see what you're doing here, which is fine. So one of the things about New Wave feminists that I think is very fascinating is a contrast I see between traditional pro-life organizations. And I don't know if you can call them new or just current pro-life movement. Do you see there being a difference between those two? Sorry, man. So I guess I'll put it this way, because I think it's something that's on my mind recently. As someone who used to work in a pro-life organization, I looked back at their social media just recently to be like, oh, what are they? Are they doing anything? And there was a graphic wishing Donald Trump a happy birthday. and a not so subtle crown logo in it. and I'm not going to lie, I thought that was, you know, not subtle. Very, I took it as personally, very disgusting as an American. And it reminded me of something that I had heard, one of my superiors once say that has stuck with me ever since, that everything is about power. And so, I think there is a difference between, I think, traditional and newer movements where, in the past, they're so linked to politics that they end up going against sometimes their own stated goal. And newer movements are broader, in a sense. Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely see what you're saying there. I think that, you know, it's interesting because people talk about pro-lifers, you all just hate women and you hate sex. And, you know, it's this type of, and I, for the longest time, was like, that's not all what my pro-life position is. I'm very sex-positive. I hope you're having wonderful, fabulous, phenomenal sex all the time. I just don't think if a new human life is created that gets to be the scapegoat and we get to use violence against it. Like, otherwise, I don't care. Like, I am staying very far outside of Europe, China, like, and you're uterus. Like, I'm not interested in putting rosaries or anything on it. Like, I've never understood where this comes from. And then, some happened. And then we started, I feel like seeing some of these groups kind of slither out that were exactly what people were saying. Like, they did want to control women's bodies. It was very sex-shaming. It was very female-shaming. It was, which is so ironic, right? Because it's like, we're supporting a man who paid off a porn star. While also being like, very judgmental of your life choices and still pushing pretty culture in so many ways because that avoids abortion. And it was just this weird disconnect where I'm like, it's, it's hypocritical to this huge degree. I carried a sign years ago with a quote on it that said, "It's the sexual ethics of men like Donald Trump that lead to abortion." Like, I think we all know, there we all speculate. That man has probably paid for a number of abortions. But he has deemed the most quote-unquote pro-life president I have of our movement, which is so disgusting to me because he made a business deal with y'all. That was your piece of the silver that you got the Supreme Court Justice. But like, does anyone truly believe that this man is pro-life? No, because to be truly pro-life, you have to see the human dignity of human beings. And I don't think he does that at all. He's certainly doesn't do it with women. He doesn't do it with minorities. He doesn't do it with people with disabilities, right? Like, all of these key target audiences that those of us who have been in the pro-life movement for a while, like are constantly trying to reach and say, like, we see your value. Like, we see your human dignity. Like, your life is valuable. It should be protected. Those are the very same groups he goes after. And to watch so many Christian conservatives and quote-unquote, like pro-life leaders immediately throw their morals out because they were close to that power. Like, you said, that's all it took. And then suddenly, they're speaking out of both sides of their mouth, like, just be consistent, be consistent. And it was so inconsistent and so disingenuous. And I think it really, unfortunately, there is a younger generation of pro-lifeers that it has absolutely led astray. I speak at colleges. I talk to these kids. Like, we're trying to undo this weird brainwashing that's happened to them. Then there is also a younger group that is seeing that inconsistency. These are the ones who are also deconstructing their faith and, you know, leaving institutions at kind of being more non-traditional because they are sick of the hypocrisy. So you see those, those young pro-lifeers moving in a particular direction. But, you know, Charlie Camisi talks about the fact that, like, post-row, we're going to have a pro-life 2.0. What is that going to look like? And I would argue that pro-life 1.0 was so fixated on the legality of abortion that it really didn't do nearly enough when it came to policies and building the social safety next that create equity for pregnant people, right? And so because everything was just cut off supply, we're not going to worry about demand or why it is people think they need abortion because they can't afford housing or healthcare or food or transportation. Like, those are the four big ones. Like, no, let's just go ahead and make it illegal and then it'll stop. Well, I don't know who thought that was going to work. New way feminists have been preaching forever, that's not going to work and we're seeing that it didn't work. So it really is about addressing these other issues and that should have been the more, like, holistic approach to addressing the abortion issue. If you want to see fewer abortions, then there has to be a cultural shift in consciousness. There has to be people who understand that we see their human dignity and that's why they should pass that down to the unborn child and the womb. The most vulnerable members of the human family, we should see their dignity as well. We should see the dignity of the migrant. We should see the dignity of the person on death row. We should see the dignity of all of these vulnerable groups, right? And so, ironically, you see more less leading people who do see the dignity of, you know, people with mental health issues or people who are dealing with housing insecurity, like, or food insecurity, all of these things, like, they see the vulnerability and they say, we're going to use our privilege in your vulnerability to take care of you. But then when it comes to the unborn child and the womb, that's the one place where they're like, oh, no, no, in your vulnerability, we can use violence against you and eliminate you. And that's not okay. So, rolay feminists, because we aren't left or right, we are calling for consistency in the vulnerability of the human person in front of you, whether they are in the womb or at the border or on death row, wherever. Can you value their life? Can you use your privilege to stand up for them? Can you take care of them in this space? Because you do have an ability to see their human dignity and to care for them and have that compassion, right? And I think the problem is the, again, far left sees it 90% of the time. It just misses it kind of on the unborn child. And then the far right, it's like they only see it in the unborn child. And that's what makes them seem so inconsistent. And I can tell you, young people aren't buying it anymore. Most of them aren't. They don't care what you know, because they don't know that you care. And so I do think that there is a movement for people who are just trying to be more consistent across the board when it comes to human dignity of all lives. Yeah, I had not even thought about it in a while, but then the same time I'm looking at these social media posts, I realized some pro-life groups are encouraging their followers to call their legislators in favor of what's called the big beautiful bill. And because it contains, I don't, I haven't read it. I don't know all that's in it. I'm assuming based on that, there is some component related to abortion, but on the other hand, it, you know, really, you know, it's confusing and hurtful because it makes cuts to social safety nets and changes to healthcare that will probably limit the amount of healthcare people have. And also deregulation around labor protection and environmental standards that it's, it just seems like there are so many other issues. And I know like at some level, there's a hierarchy of issues for some folks. And so one of the reasons they say the chronology, right? Without the right to life, there's no other right. Okay, we've heard that a million times. Correct. But if you start defunding Medicaid, like that leads to people accessing abortion. Like there's so many of these other things that are cyclical that are kind of part of this, this culture that will ultimately lead to people considering abortion. If they don't have access to quality mental healthcare, then they are going to access abortion. If they don't have access to housing, they are probably going to access abortion if they have a non plan pregnancy. So it's very short-sighted to think that, oh, this one pro-life thing changes it. No, no, it's so much bigger than that. And it's all holistic. And also can we stop being dumb? Like can we stop being dumb? And for one second, realize these politicians have been on to us since the 70s when they figured out, oh pro-life, dead babies, man, that gets people. If we just talk about this, we can get them to look the other way on so many other, you know, human rights violations. Because they'll care about that, I'm born child and I'm going, which is beautiful. It's wonderful that we care about the most vulnerable human beings in our population. That's a great thing. But the fact that like we are being used as pawns and absolutely played by these political parties, I just, I'm so over it. And at the end of the day, whatever vote however you want, I don't even care anymore. I think it's all ridiculous. I'm basically anarchist at this point. But what are you doing in your community? Outside of marching in the march for life or the no kings or whichever, whichever march side you're on, I don't care about that. When you get done marching, when you get done voting, do you love your neighbor? Are you taking care of the people in your community? That mom who has a child with disabilities, you know, that family down the street who is struggling to make insmeat like, are you going and helping them? Are you actually caring for people in your community? Because at the end of the day, the way that we take power away from the government is by strengthening our own communities. And we actually have power when it comes to that. I don't have control over Donald Trump or anything he does or any other president for that matter or most of my local politicians. But I can't make a difference in my local community and in my neighborhood and with people on my block, like I can actually do something there. And so I wish that we would stop focusing so much on federal and even statewide just know who your city council is. Start there. Know who your school board is. Know how to make differences in your communities and then just know your neighbors. Know the very people on your street so that you can care for them and love them. And then at the end of the day, no matter who's in office, it's not going to make as big of an impact on your community because you're all there taking care of each other. And I think we do have that type of power. The government's not going to save us. We have to save ourselves. And so we can only do that through connecting to our actual community and real people in need. And rather than having our tax money allocated to take a meal, take a spaghetti dinner, one of your neighbors. So that mom doesn't have to cook and you know, sit with her child for a minute so she can go take a shower. Like these are the things that actually make a huge difference. And in my mind, that that is what so-called Christians and people of faith in general should be doing. And instead, there are human politics all the time. Like how about you go out and actually be Jesus? Because here's the thing I'll say, my agnostic ass is being more Jesus than a lot of Christians I know. And I'm not saying that as a flex. I'm saying that because you should feel ashamed of that. Like, I don't even think I believe in this. And yet I'm trying to love my neighbor and I'm trying to live that particular way. So if you claim this Christ, then start acting like him, you know? Yeah. I think that the existing power structures, especially Donald Trump and his elker kind of taking advantage of people's general disengagement. And I think the thing that counters that most is just engagement and actually, you know, discussing and doing for others and living with each other, as opposed to fighting in online cocoons. Well, the individualisticness of the American culture makes it very easy for us to do that. But again, if you're pro-life, then you believe in humanizing human beings, then go humanize human beings. Be with human beings because, you know, you're a former Catholic. So I'm sure you're familiar with like the seamless garment belief, which is very similar to consistent life ethic. But the one thing that I always heard as a criticism for seamless garment is, you know, somebody would be saying, we need to care about the unborn child in the womb. And then somebody on the other side would say, but you don't even care about migrants. And what about the person on death row and what about to do that? And so instead of both sides saying, you're right, we should care about all these people. It's like both sides were like, well, you're right. I guess until I care about these people, I shouldn't care about the unborn child. And it almost like watered everything down a little bit. And I don't, I, that was never the intention of it. But that's the criticism that I hear all the time. Whereas I find the reality of being a consistent life ethicist and truly believing that all human beings should be free from violence for the duration of their lifetime from womb to tomb, the more I care about this issue over here, the more elistically I care about this other issue. And the more that I actually end up finding community like new way of feminists, we have a ton of pro-choice followers, people who are like, I don't agree with you on like any of your abortion stuff. But at the same time, like, I agree with you on all of this other stuff. And so we're here for this because we know that at least you're genuine that you really do care about migrants. Or you really do care about people on death row, right? And so then they are also kind of supporting us to make sure that these moms who want to continue their pregnancies are able to do that as well. So we've actually seen that it's, it's really elevated all of these issues if done correctly. And I think that that is where more people need to step away from the, the divisiveness of political parties. But I would say even religion to a degree, I think that's why you're seeing so many young people, you know, they are leaving institutions, whether it's like, I or learning institutions or faith institutions, like, they're they're leaving kind of the traditions behind. And I think it's because they're hungry for that consistency. And just for this culture that actually like, hairs for people and follows the golden rule, it's that simple. And they're not seeing that represented in political parties or in religious institutions as much as it used to be. And so now they're kind of going out on their own and trying to to figure out like how to live out a spirituality that is authentic or even a lack of spirituality, but just a way of life that's authentic towards how are we good people? How do we care about others? How do we have a global mindset? And you know, I mean, because of the information we have nowadays, that's so much bigger than we think it is. It's not just be good to people. It's maybe fast-fascents bad. And maybe I should be more ethical in the way that I, you know, buy my chickens. And you know, I mean, it's it gets big because we have so much information. But I just, I think that that's where people are trying to find more community now is like other like-minded people because it's sad that they're not seeing that type of consistency in religious institutions, which used to preach these very values like it's just not reflected there anymore. When you were mentioning fast-fashion and chicken, etc, it made me think that in my head, I remember thinking wow, people used to really bash organized religion for making us feel guilty all the time. Now all you need is a good Netflix documentary and it serves almost the identical purpose. It's just super true. The conflict church is being passed up by Netflix documentary is and that's the thing. People just, we have this inherent desire for guilt. And so we're not going to get it from the the parishes anymore. Now we're thinking it's from Netflix. Yeah, if you really wanted to be like, amped up about storming sea world, like go watch a Netflix documentary. Given what we've discussed about the binary of politics and the variety of religious experience that you've had and the fact that you've started your own organization and that's kind of your community. And given the fact that you don't fit into the binary and most don't, where do you think is home for you? What feels like your community? I think I have this beautiful moment on the side of the the border when I was down in Warez a couple of years ago and I we were spray painting on the Mexico side. That's completely legal, which I didn't know. And so we had this huge graffiti stencil and we were spray painting inside and this truck rolled up actually with like the federally and they had the machine guns and stuff. And I like dropped the can immediately and I'm like, that's it at the end of me, RIP destiny. And they were like, said something that's vanished to Karina, my partner. She's like, oh yeah, that we're just painting this thing. And they were like, okay, and they just went on their way. And I'm like, wait, we're allowed to do this. So, but the funny thing is it was this stencil that we, this design we had made by this awesome artist and it doesn't, you know, my grandchildren have heartbeats too. And it's very intricate heart stencil. And so at one point we're sitting there with this artist and his name's David and he was having, he didn't have time the night before to cut the all the little intricate parts out. So like, I'm down on the concrete like, cutting out these little bitty things with an exacto knife so that we can spray paint this on the border wall. And I remember like the sun was coming down and I was almost in like, you know, like the muzzle and prayer position where it's like, you're on your knees and you're leaning forward. And I'd actually just visited a mosque with a friend of mine like six months earlier. And so it was like, I recognized the position I was in and then I thought, you know, this, this almost feels like church. This feels holy whatever this moment is. And I was like, oh my gosh, it's Sunday morning, which I didn't even realize because it took me a while. I used to have a lot of guilt on Sunday mornings when I would sleep in and stuff. And so it's Sunday morning. I'm not in church, but like in that moment, I was like, this feels like church. And I look over and I've got this atheist graffiti artist. We've got this other artist friend who's like, you know, downing a six pack, like everybody's just drinking and listening to say, "Honour music." And like, basking in the sunlight and like, doing something that felt important and real. And, you know, then we're going to pick up donations later in the day to take to hand out to people and make sure that everybody has water. And like, that to me felt like church. And the interesting thing is like, everybody I was surrounded by, except for my partner who's Catholic, they were all atheists. Like, they're atheist party people, alcoholic, like just the most fun people in the world. But like, you would not think of them as your church community. And yet I was like, in this moment, I do. Because in my old church community, there were a lot of people with those same struggles that never talked about it. And it was an obvious. And so you would go and you would keep up appearances a lot. And here it's just, we're crossing because we're hot and we're cutting out the thing. And we're, you know, having a beer. And it was just, it was this very like real moment where I was like, these are my people, the people who, I think, are doing exactly what Jesus will be doing. While also dropping F-bombs and having your Surveysa. And like, just hanging out and listening to "Honour music." And like, it just was this very real beautiful experience. And so I think that's where I find my community these days. And I think that that's where others, if they're searching for that type of community, it is really difficult. Sometimes when you leave a, when you leave a church that you're used to having that community at and going to every Sunday and you have this playbook and you know what the rules are and you know what you're supposed to fit in and how you're supposed to be. And then all of a sudden, you don't have that and you have to like redefine it for yourself. And I would just say like, go where your heart calls you. And then you're going to find other people on that same frequency and wavelength as you when you get there. And and that becomes your new church, even if it's on the side of a border roll. That's really beautiful. finding kind of comfort and purpose, I think, are super important. So thank you so much, Destiny, for joining me today. I think this is really eye-opening, and I think it really will speak to a lot of people because generally I think people see that life is a spectrum that experiences a spectrum, and this is really great. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I definitely rambled super hard, so sorry about that. There are moments, you know, when you're talking sometimes when you're like, "land the plane," that happened like five different times. So I'm just, I'm going to apologize, a blanket apology to your listeners. I should have landed the plane, but I know, I know, you don't have to email me, I know, I should have landed the plane, but whatever. Hopefully somewhere in there something was useful. Oh no, definitely. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Thank you so much for listening today. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with a friend. Do you have any thoughts or questions you'd like to share or ideas for future episodes? Please email me at Kind [email protected]. That's right, AOL.com.